1 foist?

2 The credibility being strained is yours, Gabe.

3 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

4 Snowden, who had a salary at the rate of $122,000

Still not too shabby, especially for a dropout. Although I've seen him named as both a high-school and college dropout, so who knows if even that's true.

5 Burn it down. Scatter the stones. Salt the earth where it stood.

6 Is it ok with Vic if we talk about this?

7 April fool! 

8 Ok, we waste him. 

No offense.

9 Agree with RiverC. The only questions I have is "And?" The govt is out of control and abusing our natural and constitutional rights, and you are upset with the guy who had the guts to inform us?

10 Howard Stern put him up to it. 

11 I want to know about his childhood. Nevermind NSA spying on every F'ing American. What's his favorite food?

12 If it turns out he was less than truthful, he will have severely damaged U.S. national security for questionable benefit. How? How is pointing out that the NSA is spying on Domestic Only communications "severly damag[ing] U.S. national security?" Do you assert that the U.S. Government has the authority to ignore the 4th Amendment in the name of "national security?"

13 "National security", they say.
lulz.  Well then! Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

I agree with w/ RiverC.

14 Did the journalists get it wrong, or did Snowden? That's not a binary option.

15 #11 Bipolar

16 I should also point out- the fact we were logging (and even, sometimes, eaves-dropping) on international calls has not been secret since at least 2008, and was mostly an open secret even before that. Was that more, or less, damaging to U.S. National Security?

17 "Questionable benefit" being a book deal, movie made about his life, possible run for the Senate as a Democrat....

18 Ba-Ba-Booey!

19 100K plus for a tech type on contract is not as big as it seems. It's usually paid hourly for a very specific skill, and the jobs may run a few months to a year or so out in industry. The contractor cranks out lots of hours on a big project and takes home a nice check, no bennies.

20 JFC Dude, aren't you a lawyer? And you are just fine with this crap? Really helped in Boston and Ft. Hood, eh? I'll take my dangerous liberty, TYVM.

21 Wait, they just fired him today? And for violations of code of ethics issues? How about now showing up for work for days and days? How about for that? Or is that under "firm policy"?

22 Today, yesterday, whatever, I'm not the one with the time machine I don't have.

23 I want to know about that huge NSA project in Utah.  Are you going to tell me aliens from outer space ain't for real NOW?????????. 

24 How about now showing up for work for days and days? How about for that? Or is that under "firm policy"? Depending on the specific contract, he may have had a lot of leeway to work remotely: which means as long as he had a decent internet connection he could still "show up at work."

25 He left a hot pole dancer for this?  WTF? 

26 21 Wait, they just fired him today? And for violations of code of ethics issues? Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at June 11, 2013 10:08 AM (VtjlW) pssst....

27 He said $200,000 and not $122,000? Well, that's way worse than illegally spying on American citizens and lying to Congress about it.

28

I give less than two shits about Snowden (who probably outed himself so we'd notice if he suddenly had an accident)

 

I'm more concerned with what he released that has been verified as true. Likely all that means is Snowden had help higher up and is shielding that person. So yeah, thanks for the post in which we may rightly shit on the guy who brought us dangerous information for trivial crap that may have been embellished.

 

I'll say it again, I trust al Queda more than our government at this point, and think they're way less dangerous as well.

29 The Military and the Intelligence Community has to STOP farming this shit out to private contractors. I don't care how much money it "might" save.

30 25 He left a hot pole dancer for this? WTF?

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at June 11, 2013 10:10 AM (wbmaj)

Not to worry....Putin's gonna set him up with some hot Russian babe.

31 And it's interesting that of all the journalists he chose, he chose Greenwald, himself not exactly the most honest man in the trade.

32 $122,000 thousand is still alot to pay a little shit like that

33

Posted by: Waterhouse at June 11, 2013 10:04 AM (Kppp9)

 

Made twice as much as my wife, whose far more educated, working in a similar area.

So yeah.

As an aside, the story about his schooling goes that he dropped out of HS, then was taking community college classes to catch up (which he then dropped out of) so assuming that is accurate, reporting either high school or college drop out would make sense (Especially given the complicated setup.)

So maybe he can't complete anything, and this is his way of "Dropping out" again.

34 Or are you asserting, Gabe, that because Snowden has "a credibility problem" that all of this is made up, and the Federal government did not get warrants for all domestic traffic from the Telecoms and that PRISM is not already logging that information? The only thing the government itself has asserted is that "this is no big deal" because "Bush did it, too" and "we're only collecting meta-data."

35 Isn't focusing on Snowden the old "Joe the Plumber" treatment?

Or is it just lazy journalism because it's much easier to find out details about his life (salary) than go after the hard stuff like the real story?

This is embarrassing from a supposed libertarian-type like Gabriel Malor.

36 #30  Does anyone know the abandoned pole dancer's email address?  Uh....I didn't mean you, NSA. 

37 Did you guys know that Joe the Plumber didn't have a plumber's license?

Now that we've settled that.... Forward!

38 terminated June 10, 2013 lololol

39 Fuck Snowden--or maybe his pole dancer girlfriend.  She's fucking hot! 

40 Snowden may be full of shit, and we should be slightly curious as to why. Sounds like some of you are worried that your Narrative is at risk.

41 snowden could have included an ot guestimation in his salary....

42 he will have severely damaged U.S. national security for questionable benefit This has been the working hypothesis of many of us for quite some time now, honestly. The guy almost looks like a squirrel if you squint just right in the proper light.

43

How? How is pointing out that the NSA is spying on Domestic Only communications "severly damag[ing] U.S. national security?"

 

This really only applies to the Verizon warrant though does it not?

Even hooking into servers in LA or New York still nets you a lot of foreign intel (I'm not saying that makes it right, but let's not construct straw men here.)

44 39 Fuck Snowden--or maybe his pole dancer girlfriend. She's fucking hot! Posted by: Fourth Virginia at June 11, 2013 10:13 AM (wbmaj) Soon to be single as well

45 terminated June 10, 2013 lololol Posted by: akula_51 at June 11, 2013 10:12 AM (Vgn84) That is hysterical. June 10th? Way to be on top of things boys. I wonder if anyone ever terminated the Rosenbergs?

46 11. Dammit RWC , Coffee spit-take on that comment. And I have a meeting in my office in 15 mins. I gotta stop lurking here during work. {yeah right}

47 Snowden may be full of shit, and we should be slightly curious as to why. Why? Most of us already wrote him off as a douche who should be in jail for what he did. That does not change the fact that even the government is not disputing the facts as they have been reported. So why is he more important than the facts?

48 #40  My narrative is who's going to scarf up that hot as hell abandoned pole dancer? 

49 $122,000 per year is still a butt load of money for a 29 year old high school dropout IT geek. And we wonder why our national debt grows like a weed.

50 The only conclusion I've drawn is that I don't trust anyone I don't know personally, or anything I didn't see for myself. Everyone else, as far as I'm concerned, is lying, stupid or both. This conclusion is well supported. Particularly in regard to the govt or media. Thanks for your contribution Gabe.

51 BUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRNNNNN HIIIIMMMM!

52 Not $200,000? Many folks were wondering about that. Seems to have been a boast. Sorry. I didn't hear it out of Snowden's mouth. I don't trust that the media reported it properly to begin with as a set up to destroy his credibility. Losing trust sucks.

53 Fuck Snowden--or maybe his pole dancer girlfriend. She's fucking hot!

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at June 11, 2013 10:13 AM ..........Meh, She needs to eat a sammich.

54 Anyone trying to define "Truth" involving a scandal with a O'Bumble's Administration connection, should think twice.  The NSA, CIA, IRS, and every other 3-letter govt. entity lies first, then lies again.  They then finish with another lie. The MSM (agian tose three letters!) will gladly report any of the lies from them that supports their Messiah.

Snowden is a Saint and a Sinner, a Hero and a Crook.  Everyone chasing him can't claim Sainthood or hero status.  He is a side-effect of a government that is too large.  Nothing really needs to be done to or with him.  Reduce the size of government and the problem disappears.

55 We must not question The Snowden. He is our Only Hope to save us from Them.

56 Losing trust sucks. Posted by: rickb223 at June 11, 2013 10:15 AM (qc7at) Yeah but it is better than losing your smartphone.

57 45 That is hysterical. I wish he had been there a while, they might have had to pay him some terminal leave, etc. "due to be terminated on..."

58

"..........Meh, She needs to eat a sammich."

 

I agree wholeheartedly!

59

@35

 

Sounds like it. The only parts of the story I care about the veracity of have all but been confirmed by the admin.

 

Snowden could be working for the Chinese, 45 years old, making $60,000 a year and his girlfriend could have just been waitress at a pole dancing establishment and it won't change the fact that there is a real possibility that a government employee is reading this as I type.

 

Do you have any idea how pissed it makes me to say the paulnauts were right?

60 #53  She can start at my house with some salami and pressed ham!

61 But the omgzterminated for policy vio!! shit is less compelling given that it happened yesterday. Cause and effect, motherfucker! Do you speak it?!

62 Snowden is the pretty shiney thing. Watch the other hand.

63 Snowden is actually a rogue replicant modeled after Hayes/Maddow v. 2.2. There have always been problems with that model.

64 Sounds like some of you are worried that your Narrative is at risk.

Posted by Eaton Cox at June 11, 2013 10:13 AM (QCc6B)
-------------------------

There is no narrative. It doesn't matter in the slightest if this guy is a hero or a scoundrel. The only thing that matters is whether or not the facts he revealed about the U.S. government are true. And they are.

The debate isn't over this guy. The debate is over whether you think our government should be collecting this kind of data on Americans.

65  "Losing trust sucks."..........I wouldn't know anything about that.

66 Edward Snowden: Russia offers to consider asylum request Vladimir Putin's spokesman says any appeal for asylum from whistleblower who fled US will be looked at 'according to facts'

67 baby out with the bath water!!!!!

68 Maybe the $200,000 was including benefits?  People sometimes like to include them when stating their salary, makes them sound more important.

69 This is not treason, it's a disgruntled worker.

70 $58.65 an hour = "almost $200k a year". Reporters shouldn't embellish trivial and easily disproven bullshit like that. And the guy's salary...how frigging hard is it to fact check that one?

71 I'm going to start a "Rescue" for abandoned pole dancers. 

72 The Military and the Intelligence Community has to STOP farming this shit out to private contractors. I don't care how much money it "might" save. Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 11, 2013 10:11 AM (9Bj8R) Why? Are you saying contractors are less loyal than civil servants?

73

contractors hire these guys usually because they already have security clearances given to them by the military or CIA in a previous job.  He got his clearance before he worked for the contractor.

 

He says there are more stories he has released that have yet to come out.  Even if he does not reveal individual people, he may reveal practices and methods. 

 

I am glad we know about PRISM but I do not trust this guy. 

 

There are a lot of things he is saying that do not make sense.  Having a clearance does not equal access.  You have to have a need to know.  Why would a guy working for a contractor prolly working on Navy stuff be able to access POTUS' emails?  Or all CIA across the world? 

 

And why China?  Why now?  There is a lot that does not make sense with this guy. 

74 Do you have any idea how pissed it makes me to say the paulnauts were right? Posted by: Jollyroger at June 11, 2013 10:16 AM (t06LC) Alex Jones may be right about something. This causes me pain in the soul shaped area. Also sekrit to AllenG - I saw what you did.

75
Alternate news: So Booz Allen is trying to save their own bacon, WaPo has been given a talking to also.  Quite far fetched, I know.

76 Do we have reason to believe the info he grabbed is fake? I'm more hung up on the whole 'Chicago gangster has access to all his political opponents' info' aspect of this.

77 I'm going to start a "Rescue" for abandoned pole dancers. Posted by: Fourth Virginia at June 11, 2013 10:18 AM (wbmaj) That is a no kill shelter, right?

78 #62  You mean the 20 million illegals parading throughout this once great Country? 

79 30 Not to worry....Putin's gonna set him up with some "hot" "Russian" "babe".

----------

fixt.

80 My guess? Chinese mole.

81 Not to worry....Putin's gonna set him up with some hot Russian babe. Hopefully that lonely scrunt living in Siberia. Then she can stop spamming my work email.

82

I'm still trying to figure out how spending vast sums of money and time monitoring   the communications of   millions of innocent  Americans without  probable cause is connected  to national security,  especially when   terrorists could just be profiled.

 

It's not like terrorists are erratic.

83 Yes, and plenty of "pull toys" and "chew bones" for all!!!!

84

Greenwald, his cabana boy and his various sock puppets can take their America is always at fault ass  and impale it on the barbed cock of satan. 

 

They can make it a shish kabob with Manning and Snowden and top it off with Obama.  

85 BREAKING NEWS!!! Guardian and Dailymail both have breaking news awaiting confirmation. Appears Snowden left three dollars tip on a 72 dollar tab.

86 So why is he more important than the facts?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:14 AM (/PCJa)

The facts are still more unclear though than we want to admit.

The Verizon thing seems fairly cut and dry, the court order is there, it's fairly clear.

The PRISM, uh...that's less so actually.  They haven't (that I've heard) confirmed or denied it.  And given the status quo in intel is to do neither, that's not surprising.

Does this mean they're innocent? Fuck no, we know they're spying on us, of course they are.  And congress signed off on it assuming it'd never come to light.

But the extent to which it's being done is still, I'd gather unknown. (Having said that it's also beyond what's reasonable regardless.)

87

@76

 

Right on. Its too dangerous to have this kind of power in a republic.

88 The extra $80,000 or so was for hookers and blow.  That's not included in the normal paycheck. Hillary's orders.

89 http://tinyurl.com/kuxhah2

“We’ll be going over every inch of this,” said Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.), a member of the House Intelligence Committee who expects confidential briefings on the leak in the next few days. Public hearings are likely as well, he said.


Never fear.  We've got a Callyfornya dem going over every inch.  That's some feel-good politickin' there.

90 #77  Please see #83.  Thanks. 

91 Even hooking into servers in LA or New York still nets you a lot of foreign intel (I'm not saying that makes it right, but let's not construct straw men here.) But it nets you even more domestic intel. Did you read the Social Network Analysis piece on the ONT? Imagine if the Federal Government were logging every piece of mail- every piece of mail- sent through the USPS. All they logged was To address, Return address, and weight of the package or envelope. (Yes, this would have to be in the 80s or 90s when people still used the USPS for the bulk of written communications- all analogies are flawed in some way). Now, they would get "a lot of foreign intel." That is, they would be able to make a lot of connections between foreign addresses and domestic addresses. Once they had names for those addresses (not a terribly difficult feat for the govt, I would think), they could build up all kind of data about social networks. But, and it's a big "but," they'd also be generating vastly more data about domestic communications- most of it having nothing to do with their investigation at all. Now, if they were conducting a specific investigation (or investigations) and purging data as soon as they saw it did not fit with their investigation, that would be one thing. But, by their own admission, they're not doing either of those things. This is the heart of the 4th Amendment. Being secure in your "person and papers" referred as much to correspondence (that is: mail) as it did to records you kept for yourself.

92 35

Gabe, a libertarian? That was good for a laugh this morning.

------

Snowden is a tertiary concern to the massive federal 4th amendment violations going on Gabe, come on.

93 Why? Are you saying contractors are less loyal than civil servants? Posted by: Mainah at June 11, 2013 10:19 AM (659DL) I am saying when they are in the Military and The Intel Community certain rules apply to them and so does the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice). And in my opinion, this PC crap in the Military has to stop, and then yes maybe then, those people would be more loyal.

94 Snowden seems like an arrogant little shit who took what little power he did have and try and make himself into a hero/martyr. He's neither of those, but it doesn't mean I want the commies running our government spying on it's own people. If I thought for one minute I could trust our government to do what it says, perhaps. But I don't trust any of them.

95 Five million top security clearances--what could go wrong? 

96

meanwhile Boehner is promising immigration reform

 

 

as OSP said, watch the other hand

97 Who the great blue bloody hell gives a damn about Snowden?


My gosh, it is as though someone shouted SQUIRREL!  and half the country turned to look. 


Wherefore came this generosity of spirit?  Why are we playing into the hands of the people who aim to subvert the 4th by examining the minutiae of Snowden's life?  Credibility?!  The government has, at this point, basically copped to the existence of PRISM, and we still have people grumbling about Snowden's choice of which nation will control his very existence until the day he dies?


Remarkable, and unfathomable, all at once.

98 We've found evidence of a second tanning bed in his home!

99 Has this been verified by two imaginary MSM sources?

100 If Snowden is a nobody asshole liar, then how is it that he is able to provoke the reaction he has?

Explain this:

James Clapper, said on Sunday that he had asked the Justice Department to launch a criminal investigation into the leaks, telling NBC News, "It is literally gut-wrenching to see this happening, because of the huge grave damage it does to our intelligence capabilities... this is a key tool for preserving protecting the nation's safety and security."

Now either Snowden knows something or he doesn't. Sounds to me like he knows something. And if he's an asshole who has done horrible damage to our security, then how did a nobody asshole liar get in such a position?

We're talking about security, folks. That's supposed to be the job of the NSA and why they need all this info. But they can't even watch their own henhouse?!

Let's not forget the character assassination that occurred with the Benghazi truth-tellers, either.

Nitpicking Snowden is a fool's game, employed to the benefit of those who are eroding your freedom.

101 Things that annoy me about the HQ..... Gabe taking the wrong side on most issues and calling those that point this out "immoral " "Foist?"posts. Even if they are actually first. The "salt the earth" posts. We get it. Really. But it doesn't have the same ring to it as SCOAMF does. Carry on.

102 NSA is doing great. Let's move on.

103
I'm more hung up on the whole 'Chicago gangster has access to all his political opponents' info' aspect of this.



THIS x 11ty7 trillion.


The fact that TFG and his lackeys abuse govt resources to suppress conservatives and stay in power is the real story.  I do not trust any of them with this kind of power.  I do not believe for a second that they won't be tempted to use the NSA or other agency resources to play keep away with our own government.

104 Never fear. We've got a Callyfornya dem going over every inch. That's some feel-good politickin' there.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at June 11, 2013 10:21 AM (2iU3x)

 

 

 

Better than a NY dem showing every inch...

105 No no, nothing to see here. Yes we are spying on you and violating your 4th amendment rights but that's all poppycock now because the guy who leaked it lied about his salary. Now can you aim your webcam juuust a bit further down? Ahhhh yeah, that's it... -your betters in the government

106 Carry on. Posted by: Libtardo at June 11, 2013 10:23 AM (E+3VA) 109!!!

107 shit

108 Also sekrit to AllenG - I saw what you did. [hides again] [from sooper seekrit hiding spot] The PRISM, uh...that's less so actually. They haven't (that I've heard) confirmed or denied it. And given the status quo in intel is to do neither, that's not surprising. They've been busy screaming "metadata! it's only metadata" since the scandal broke. I'd call that a confirmation. [/from sooper seekrit hiding spot]

109

@103

 

Gee, I wonder how a lot of us look on a big data diagram showing "AOSHQ", Drudge, and Hot Air among others.

 

It'd be a pity if such info was somehow sent to the IRS for the "please audit" stack.

110

It can be both.  He can he an untrustworthy asshole who just sold us out to the ChiComs but also manage to tell the country about massive violations of the fourth amendment.  Both are important to know.

111

Posted by: Nicholas Kronos at June 11, 2013 10:23 AM (/Tujl)

 

Or, as the trade goes, when someone says you can do something, even if you can't you make it sound like you can to scare everyone else.

Also Clapper has proven himself to be an idiot on multiple occasions, and poorly briefed by his handlers. It's possible he himself doesn't know much. (Sadly.)

112 106 Carry on. Posted by: Libtardo at June 11, 2013 10:23 AM (E+3VA) 109!!! Posted by: RWC Nostradamus audition?

113 I am saying when they are in the Military and The Intel Community certain rules apply to them and so does the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice). And in my opinion, this PC crap in the Military has to stop, and then yes maybe then, those people would be more loyal. Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 11, 2013 10:21 AM (9Bj8R) Ah, ok. I agree, penalties for people subject to the UCMJ can be much harsher than for civilians. Don't get me started on tenure in the civil service. If you are tenured, you pretty much have to kill somebody to be fired.

114 Regarding Snowden's salary: BAH is probably giving us simply salary, while Snowden might be citing salary plus cost of other benefits such as housing, health insurance, or whatever. BAH has a vested interest in making Snowden look bad, while Snowden wants to make himself look good. Everybody involved is going to tell us what they WANT us to know. Nobody is going to volunteer what we NEED to know to make a good decision.

115 As an aside, the story about his schooling goes that he dropped out of HS, then was taking community college classes to catch up (which he then dropped out of) so assuming that is accurate, reporting either high school or college drop out would make sense (Especially given the complicated setup.)
So maybe he can't complete anything, and this is his way of "Dropping out" again.

 

Posted by: tsrblke at June 11, 2013 10:11 AM (GaqMa)

 

------------------------

 

I also call bullshit on his story  that he would have been a Green  Beret if only he hadn't broken  BOTH legs in a "training accident"  after 3 months of OSUT.

 

Nice  touch.  The Army doesn't say he got  chaptered out for medical reasons, just that "he completed no training and received no awards."  That  usually means Entry Level Seperation, which is like your service never even occurred, so you don't even have it characterized by a formal discharge.

 

Although, I'm sure not disclosing  his  epislepsy and  being a scrawny beanpole with glasses  thick enough to burn Shetland ponies may have also been contributing factors in his not earning a green beret.

 

What the fuck did he do in 3 months of employment at Booz  Allen Hamilton?  Besides download  thousands of classified documents to hand over to the Gleen?  Doesn't  sound like he had time for much  else.

116

"then how did a nobody asshole liar get in such a position?"

 

Good question.

117 27 He said $200,000 and not $122,000? Well, that's way worse than illegally spying on American citizens and lying to Congress about it.

Posted by: Warden at June 11, 2013 10:10 AM (0DlnM)

When you lie about personal things, it isn't really a lie. We all want to keep some things private - I'll grant you that it's kind of ironic here, but nevertheless

118 One hundred eleventy foist! Ooooops.

119 Gee, I wonder how a lot of us look on a big data diagram showing "AOSHQ", Drudge, and Hot Air among others. It'd be a pity if such info was somehow sent to the IRS for the "please audit" stack. Posted by: Jollyroger at June 11, 2013 10:25 AM (t06LC) Do Cute Animal Videos cancel out Weapons Related sites?

120 110 It can be both. He can he an untrustworthy asshole who just sold us out to the ChiComs but also manage to tell the country about massive violations of the fourth amendment. Both are important to know. Both are not important. The massive violations are waay higher up in the chain than the source of the info. One disgruntled employee is not an existential threat to the United States of America. Several thousand people in Washington violating the constitution is, however.

121 Booz Allen Statement on Reports of Leaked Information

http://tinyurl.com/lqava4q

122 Also Clapper has proven himself to be an idiot on multiple occasions, and poorly briefed by his handlers. It's possible he himself doesn't know much. (Sadly.) It's also possible that Clapper is a Skrull here as part of the plot to take over the planet. It's not likely, however. If what he was saying was a lie (or even wrong in anything even passingly significant) they would say so- and then his credibility would matter.

123

When Chambers decided to become a witness to Alger Hiss, he knew that Hiss would have powerful forces withing the government that would try to destroy his credibility and make the issue about Chambers and his communism, rather than Hiss and Hiss' communism.

Same thing is happening here.

I'm not going to elevate Snowden to hero status, but lets have an honest accounting of motivations and incentives of parties involved. Booz Allen has its entire business to lose, just like Arthur Andersen did a decade ago.

124
Let me get this straight, the guy who made it known that the NSA and Obama are violating the privacy and 4th amendment rights of every American (confirmed by the US Govt. btw) is being berated because he is a braggart.

ok then.

125

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:25 AM (/PCJa)

 

The "Metadata" meme was for the Verizon information (plus it didn't really stick there.)

Your USPS example is actually a bit interesting though.  Here are things we put on envelopes, what expectation of privacy do we have there? (Also you're free not to put a return address on said envelope).

Given that the USPS is a defacto arm of the government, I'd argue "not a ton" just as a matter of practicability. (Obviously that falls apart though with 3rd party providers like Verizon, so it's more of a thought experiment than anything.)

126 Nostradamus audition? Posted by: rickb223 at June 11, 2013 10:26 AM (qc7at) Gotta feed the chilruns somehow. Ok, how's this- I see a great burning in the future. Any takers?

127

What the fuck did he do in 3 months of employment at Booz Allen Hamilton? Besides download thousands of classified documents to hand over to the Gleen? Doesn't sound like he had time for much else.

 

 

this this this

128

"then how did a nobody asshole liar get in such a position?"

Hey! Oh wait, you weren't talking about me. Whew!

129 Speaking of lying ::: Eric Holder. Oh, remind me again, was Snowden under oath?

130 WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE HASN'T BEEN AT WORK FOR A MONTH?  Maybe we should let him go.....

131 Catherine Herridge is reporting that she took a helicopter ride over the Utah facility to document how large it was.  Two weeks later the pilot called her to say that he got a visit from the FBI who was notified by the NSA the he had flown over the facility and wanted to know why.

132 "Did the journalists get it wrong, or did Snowden?" --- Is the govt lying? YES. Is Snowden? Apparently. Who is lying about minor details, and who is lying about major things? It really does matter. It was stupid if he lied about his pay, though. There was something in his manner that bothered me, but maybe it is age difference - his affect reminds me of the oh-so-heady young pseudo-intellectuals I meet nowadays.

133

I think he took the job only to get at the documents and do this

 

like a mole

 

and yes, it is very important if he is working for the Chi Coms

134 I'm still waiting to see the warrant   naming 350 million Americans  as suspects, and authorizing the taps of their phones, internet, and billing records.

135 ... and let the trashing and demonizing begin even from our side.   Disgraceful.   Whatever statement his former employers made is no doubt chiseled in stone.   More like CYA before they get on Obama's sh*t list and get a visit from the IRS.

136 "One disgruntled employee is not an existential threat to the United States of America."

And if he is, then you have our current government mixing unchecked power with utter incompetence.

Fantastic combination.

137 One disgruntled employee is not an existential threat to the United States of America. Several thousand people in Washington violating the constitution is, however. --- And thus the problem. DC has perverted the nature of "a government of the people, by the people, for the people", as the Gettysburg Address put it.

138 Lest we forget the IRS... and its ties to obamacare. They are trying to push this under the rug. Don't let 'em.

139 >>>Or are you asserting, Gabe, that because Snowden has "a credibility problem" that all of this is made up, I think I've given this shpiel before, but once again... Information has three components: content, source, and cost. With respect to content, we primarily evaluate it in terms of plausibility and corroboration. With respect to source, we primarily evaluate it in terms of credibilty. With respect to cost, we primarily evaluate it in terms of comparison, relative value to the source and relative value to the subject. Here, we have a piece of information, condensed for the sake of this example: "PRISM is spying on Americans' internet traffic." So analyze it. First, evaluate content: Plausible? Sure. Corroboration? No -- NSA confirms that PRISM exists, but says it is not used on Americans. Snowden remains the sole source. Second, evaluate source (of great importance precisely because Snowden is still the sole source): Credibility? Undercut by at least a few little white lies, implausible claims about being "disappeared," questionable background details, and decision to flee to China. Third, cost: Relative value for Snowden? It cost him his job, his girlfriend, and basically a normal life for the rest of his life. I'd call that high value. Relative value for the subject? Well, it's gotten both Greenwald and the WaPo's Gellman a ton of publicity, rocketing them both onto the cable nets and probably securing careers for both for as long as they want. Also, of great value to them because they can (and did) then pass the information to the general public, which -- at least in the case of Greenwald for certain, and probably Gellman too -- is of great value as a matter of principle. So, we'll call that high value too. So cost is a wash. Summarize: Information content is questionable. Information source is questionable. Information cost doesn't resolve. Rate the information: suspect until it can be corroborated or source credibility can be rehabilitated. One more note with respect to your original question about crediblity: generally, when a person lies about little things, it is reasonable to conclude that they will lie about big things, and vice versa. You can be a fabulist about some details and then claim perfect honesty in others, but not without some corroboration to rehabilitate your credibility.

140 Gee, I wonder how a lot of us look on a big data diagram showing "AOSHQ", Drudge, and Hot Air among others.

It'd be a pity if such info was somehow sent to the IRS for the "please audit" stack.
Posted by: Jollyroger at June 11, 2013 10:25 AM (t06LC)

Do Cute Animal Videos cancel out Weapons Related sites?

Posted by: RWC at June 11, 2013 10:27 AM .............AOSHQ to Hot Air To Malkin to Drudge to ESPN to Pron and then back full circle to AOSHQ. Then maybe, maybe some work related shit.

141 Just make sure you shut down his access to our systems sometime within the next month or so.  E-mail too....

142

Yesterday I criticized Snowden's reveal as an attempt to cash in on the fame and notoriety of being an International Man of Mystery.  I was told in response that his decision to come out, as it were, just made the overall story that much more compelling.  That the story with a face was more approachable than an anonymous leak.

 

Well, now that Snowden apparently has issues with exaggerating things, you gotta wonder what else is being exaggerated.  His story rings odd in some pretty key places.  The guys at Thisainthell have some concerns about his military story, for example.

 

My take is that he was some low level hack who charmed his way into a sysop job, had some pretty cool sounding pickup lines (which worked on his airhead girlfriend) which he recycled into his public narrative, but in reality he was probably managing some out of the way computer on which a honey pot was kept. 

 

Really, $122k in Hawaii is *not* big money. 

143 I agree with the commenter a few days ago that said this is special ops. If I accidentally come in her mouth every time she will get my message.

144 Let's ask the important questions. Is Snowden for amnesty and government licensure of buggery?

145 How can this be? The source was independently verified not by one, but two separate sources (Rick Ellensburg and Tom Ellers).

Snowden is cute though. Is the rumor true that he's actually Greenwald's Magic Boyfriend?

146

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:28 AM (/PCJa)

 

The Non-dismissal head fake meant to falsely imply "confirmation" is as old as the spy game, it's not like I claimed Clapper was an alien, or that Snowden was a plant designed to scare our enemies. I said "there's a perfectly rational reason why they haven't specifically refuted his claims."

Given that, I'd say 80% or so is accurate, 20% is either Snowden misreading his own files or boasting about it to sound cool or generate buzz.

But as I said, even if only 10% were true it's still a bridge to far.

Hell the Verizon thing in itself is a bridge to far (and we suspected that was happening, but never had proof before.)

147 Who paid for his trip to China?  Does he still have our Corp. AmEx?  Shut that down soon too will ya.....

148 Gabe loves himself some big government. And if you don't agree, he'll treat your ass like that deadbeat Joe the Plumber.

149 Your USPS example is actually a bit interesting though. Here are things we put on envelopes, what expectation of privacy do we have there? According to the 4th Amendment, we have an absolute "expectation of privacy" regarding that information. Now, if the recipient of my letter is the government (well, a member thereof), then I have to assume the government keeps some kind of track of those. But, according to the 4th Amendment, the US Government is just supposed to deliver the mail, it's not supposed to log anything about it. Also, I'll point out that "expectation of privacy" is not in the Constitution anywhere- it was added by a Liberal Justice to create a right to kill your unborn child out of whole-cloth. The 4th Amendment says what it says. It's fairly straight-forward. If you have to start asking about "expectation of privacy" then you've gone off the (Constitutional) rails. Also, I love the idea we somehow have that privacy rules regarding how private companies can monitor/use our data should somehow be more strict than how the government can do the same.

150
The 122k yearly salary cited by his ex-employer is almost certainly base pay, and does not include other potential perks that this Snowden guy may have been getting.

151

Okay I understand and agree that collecting phone activity and internet activity is an overreach and a violation of the 4th amendment since its done as a sweep.  Some highly respected people  though  have reached a different conclusion.  They base this conclusion on the premise that these type  records are not private but public.  

 

My question for anyone who knows the answer is,  in a criminal investigation does the investigator need a subpoena to get records of cell phone calls?  

152 Just remember... the same people arguing that this spying is necessary to your security won't secure the border--which would be easier, cheaper, more effective and, most importantly, LEGAL.

I'm amazed that there are some on the conservative side who are so eager to give up their 4th amendment rights for nothing in return.

I get when people sacrifice liberty for security. I don't agree with it, but I get it.

But this? This doesn't make us more secure. Not when our government isn't doing everything it legally can to prevent terrorism.

Quite the opposite--this is a tool of harassment and oppression. And if you don't think this info can, has, and will be used to punish Obama's enemies, you're delusional.

153

In order to work for the CIA and NSA, one must pass a poly. How did he pass a polygraph?

 

154 Then maybe, maybe some work related shit. Posted by: Marco Rubio at June 11, 2013 10:31 AM (DLwhg) Huh? What the hell? Your making us look bad!

155
the guy who made it known that the NSA and Obama are violating the privacy and 4th amendment rights of every American is being berated because he is a braggart.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk




Hey, private school tuition is murder and Soros is handing out checks like chewing gum.

Easy choice to make.

Posted by: The Republicans(tm)

156

@139

 

I dunno Gabe, is his concern for being "disappeared" that implausible?

 

157 Overtime is a new fangled concept whereby an employer pays more for time exceeding 40 hours a week. Just saying.

158 Geebus.....  Did that SOB raid the Supply Closet too?  Where are all of the Bic Medium Point Blue Pens?  SON OF A BITCH!

159 I told you yesterday the Booz Allen salary claim was total BS, and probably means a lot of the rest is too.

160 Quite the opposite--this is a tool of harassment and oppression. And if you don't think this info can, has, and will be used to punish Obama's enemies, you're delusional.


Yup.  I said it too at #103.

161 I want to know about that huge NSA project in Utah. Are you going to tell me aliens from outer space ain't for real NOW?????????
Phone home! Phone home!

162

In order to work for the CIA and NSA, one must pass a poly. How did he pass a polygraph?

 

--------

 

It's not lying IF YOU BELIEVE IT!

163

QUICK..... CHECK THE COFFEE!

164 Also, I love the idea we somehow have that privacy rules regarding how private companies can monitor/use our data should somehow be more strict than how the government can do the same.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:34 AM (/PCJa)

-

It goes back to the big lie that a government entity has no profit motive and thus no incentive to be dishonest.  In actuality, a private business has every motive to be honest, while a government who has monopoly power and     operates only by force is the easiest entity to use in a partisan fashion.

165
Was this the guy from that movie "The Falcon and the Snowden"?

166 150
The 122k yearly salary cited by his ex-employer is almost certainly base pay, and does not include other potential perks that this Snowden guy may have been getting.

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at June 11, 2013 10:34 AM (0IhFx)

Too bad he didn't work there longer, the IRS could just release his returns to clear up any ambiguity about the amount.

167 Obama Regime spied on everybody in the world and Snowden is the one with the credibility problem? Heh.

168 Was this the guy from that movie "The Falcon and the Snowden"?



They got caught.

169 Isn't focusing on Snowden the old "Joe the Plumber" treatment?

Or is it just lazy journalism because it's much easier to find out details about his life (salary) than go after the hard stuff like the real story?

This is embarrassing from a supposed libertarian-type like Gabriel Malor.

Posted by: Nicholas Kronos at June 11, 2013 10:12 AM (/Tujl)

 

The smear campaign against 'Joe The Plumber' is non analogous to the Snowden case.  To me, Snowden looks like a would-be spy who's using the fog machine of publicity to cover up his motivations. Motivations are important here. As one of the NRO writers at The Corner (I forget which one) pointed out, Snowden seems to have an idealized view of China in the same way Guy Burgess, one of the Cambridge spies, had of Soviet Russia. That comparison is apt. I'm betting Snowden is the grandiose type, with an overinflated sense of self-importance, a man who sees himself at the center of history.

 

Snowden thinks he's going to live the high life in Hong Kong, surrounded by beautiful courtesans while he sips from a boat drink and watches a glorious sunset from a penthouse suite. If there's any justice in this world, he'll soon be sitting under a very bright light in a very uncomfortable chair deep in the bowels of the Ministry of State Security, and--for my part--I sincerely hope the Chinese haven't changed their interrogation methods much since the Korean War.

170 Does anyone have things the Regime can use against them, even Mitt Romney, who was squeaky clean? We just find out today a US Ambssador is accused of being a pedo, and State told the IG to ignore it... Funny how some things are exposed, but others not. I imagine very shortly we will find out"horrible" things like Snowden what, didn't recycle? Called ugly girls names? I don't trust Snowden, but I trust Obama/Boehner/MSM MUCH less (and he is more dangerous).

171 I don't really care about Snowden or his motivations. I do happen to think that he has some credibility issues. It sounds like allot of it is that Snowden has a self inflated sense of worth. In short he's a narcissistic twat. He did expose PRISM though which is something that  should make us all at the very least uncomfortable. So while it's important to hold his feet to the fire, I think it's way more important that we do the same to the group of duchenozzles in Washington DC.

172 BREAKING: We have new reports in that Snowden once told his mommy that he hadn't taken a cookie when in fact, he had!

173 150
The 122k yearly salary cited by his ex-employer is almost certainly base pay, and does not include other potential perks that this Snowden guy may have been getting.

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at June 11, 2013 10:34 AM (0IhFx)

He once had a dog on his car roof!!

174 Next your going to tell me that he was doing the CEO's Secreta.... er I mean Executive Administrative Assistant.

175 >>> Information has three components: content, source, and cost. Horse puckey. It's fact or fiction. While it may be noteworthy when the NYT commits a random act of journalism, but the story stands on its own.

176 Some employers have bonus programs - some folks include bonus payments when citing income. The IRS likes it when they do that.

177 Good job, Gabe. Knew you could get Snowden on something. Personally, I knew Snowden was a psycho when I saw his eyeglasses. Nobody but a freak who lies about his salary wears eyeglasses like those.

178 So, the lying traitor turns out to be a liar. Not shocked.

179 The 200K is plausible.  Many IT folks in the intel field get signing bonuses to switch companies.  Having a TS clearance with a poly, is a hot commodity to have, particularly in NSA/CIA/DIA land as a contractor.

180

This kid also claimed that he could  wiretap ANYONE  on  his own authority, "even the president."

 

Evaluate the  veracity of this claim.

181 john stop your sense talking...heads will explode

182 The only issue I take with your calculus, Gabe--and I otherwise find the logic to be proper--is that some of the sources of the information used to evaluate it are, themselves, suspect, thanks to the current administration's long history of obfuscation (combined with the intelligence community's understandable reflex to cover itself). Thus the equation becomes extremely difficult to evaluate. Given the context of prior revelations, however, it seems to fit a pattern--and ultimately, that may be enough.

183

@152

I really don't see this program as being able to stop a threat before it happens but I do see it as a great way to keep tabs on someone and nail them with a bullshit crime after the fact. Legal Insurrection is exactly right. This program seems tailor made to be one of those "you supply the name, we'll find the crime" type things a overzealous prosecutor can go ape shit with.  

184 Snowden, who had a salary at the rate of $122,000 Which means the government isn't monitoring everyone?

185 One more note with respect to your original question about crediblity: generally, when a person lies about little things, it is reasonable to conclude that they will lie about big things, and vice versa. You can be a fabulist about some details and then claim perfect honesty in others, but not without some corroboration to rehabilitate your credibility. That's actually fair. However, it does miss a component: how do those things "evaluate" for the Government side in this story? Is it Plausible that the U.S. Government (in light of the IRS/EPA/HHS scandals, among others) is not collecting the same data for domestic only traffic? Possibly. Corroboration? None- only the Government (and you can bet they won't let outside investigators- say, from the states and vetted for security clearance) in to clear it up. Next: Credibility. This is the US Government led by Barack Hussein Obama. Next question. Finally Cost: What does it cost the government to say this isn't true? Nothing. What does it gain them to say it isn't true? A lot. So which of these two sources- these two witnesses, if you will, is more credible?

186

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:34 AM (/PCJa)

 

Note I said "as a matter of practicability." I don't think we have any different notions of privacy between private and government companies, the question is what can each organization do internally with the information we give them and what counts as "internal."

Question: if the USPS were taking all this data to determine the right location to expand post offices (and where to shut them down) we'd all point out the good use of metrics as a way of saving money.

Now is the government a single institution such that everything inside of it is considered "internal" or is a set of institutions so that information sharing is bound by the same set of rules as the private to government sharing (which is what I was saying about Verizon.)

Although you're probably right that the holding of the data fundamentally changes it.

187 They fired him yesterday? Closing the barn door just in time I see.

188 Red Herring just called and...

189 "That is hysterical. June 10th? Way to be on top of things boys. I wonder if anyone ever terminated the Rosenbergs?" --------/----------/----------/-----------/-----------/--------- They did better than the INS who renewed Mohammed Atta's temporary visa 6 months after he died on American Airlines Flight 11.

190

@180

 

Did he say on authority or did he say he could do it. There is a difference.

191 “I hope that an Edward Snowden comes out of ChinaÂ’s Great Firewall system, exposes it, and goes down in the annals of history as a hero,” Wen Yunchao, a Hong Kong blogger, wrote.http://tinyurl.com/luhv8xl

Hey, he's got uber support from the Chinese bloggers association.

192 We're rapin' e'erbody up in heah!

193 1. Booz Allen: of course they come out and try to make Snowden look bad. They have to cover their own asses. 2. Fisa: It says FOREIGN Intelligence Surveillance Act. What about foreign is so hard to understand. 3. Privacy: People saying that if you don't have nothing to hide, what do you care. Really? Since when is it ok for the government to collect data on its on people? Didn't we find the Cold War against the USSR and all its cronies because they put their boots on the necks of their own people by collecting every bit of information they could get their hands on. Most of my family was trapped in east germany and believe me they understand what is going on.

194

Geeze Gabe,  yea, Booze Allen has no reason to distort claims at all. Clapper is only the former head of the company and they are reliant on Gov contracts to stay in biz.

You can take anything they say at face value

Seriously, I think you are a good blogger, but you are digging yourself a hole here. Why are you attacking a man who is trying to defend our liberties?

195 Is everyone defending  Snowden  dismissing John Bolton's assessment? 

196 Damage Control for Dummies

Chapter One - Discrediting the whistleblower

197 caustic don't they know he's not an "ivy leaguer" how can they support him?

198 OK, let's say we believe this trivial point about his $122,000 in salary.  What about his total compensation? 

Large bonuses are common among contractors, who withhold significant portions of compensation until after a project is completed, to be sure it comes in on time and under budget. 

Besides, how easy is it to issue a press release that no one (other than the NSA) can or will verify? 

Please. 

I'm sure all sorts of information about Snowden will come dribbling out of the NSA and White House about Snowden's (alleged) predilection for deviant sex practices. 

Child porn allegations to follow. 

We still know more about Snowden than Obama.  What did Obama do at BNI?  How did he get hired there, with no experience, training or skills?  How did he get to and from Pock-ee-stahn?  What was his mother's and grandfather's connections to the CIA or other intel organizations? 

199

@189

 

Mr. Hassan appreciates you paying last months check and wonders how his ass tastes.

200 I get when people sacrifice liberty for security. I don't agree with it, but I get it. I don't get it. Massholes sacrificed liberty for safety & got a marathon bombing for it. Antd then got treate like terrs on the door to door searches.

201 Snowden might be lying. But it seems almost 100% true, in the big parts. Govt has basically fessed up to it.

202

Also, I love the idea we somehow have that privacy rules regarding how private companies can monitor/use our data should somehow be more strict than how the government can do the same.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:34 AM (/PCJa)

 

--------------------

 

That's why we don't use "free" email services  to conduct business.  If your communications  are not stored on your own  servers, you have no reason to believe  that they may not be compromised at  any time, for any reason.

 

I  have to shake my head at people who were outraged  that Google  was parsing all their emails  for ad-serving purposes.

 

 

203 I thought the $200K was BS from he get go. I don't make anywhere near that and I have :

A BS in Computer Science with a 3.85 gpa
4+ years Military
20+  total years of experience
CISSP certified
Clearance + Polygraph

Maybe I have been selling myself short ?

 

204 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.

205
Well, that settles it because the NSA would never lie about spying on Americans.

(of course, content providers have confirmed their participation).

206 There is something about this Snowden guy that made me think this was a snow job.  That was before I learned he donated to Ron Paul or only had a GED.    What is the cost of living in Hawaii because 120K for 29 year old with no college degree doesn't seem legit either, unless he was a computer whiz kid.

207 Snowden is irrelevant. His leaked documents are.

208 Oh and also, those who are saying this is only base pay and doesn't include overtime or bonus, sorry, that's wrong. No bonuses or OT at his level. I'm sure it doesn't include 401k or healthcare, but nobody thinks that when you say salary. The guy was full of it when he exaggerated his salary. And 122k in Hawaii is not a huge deal. Not saying we should drop this, but don't lift this guy up as a hero, most likely this wasn't his only deception.

209 Some Germans were o.k. with living in East Germany.

210

What data is the government collecting that everyone is upset about?  My understanding is that they have collected phone activity (calls to and from, numbers only).  

 

Is there more.?  Have we confirmed they are collecting Internet searches?

211 There just seems to be more to this than meets the eye.

212 Every day that goes by without China turning him increases the odds China was in on it.

213 Meanwhile over at The Hill: Boehner also joined President Obama in defending the programs as effective and essential for national security. "The president outlined last week that these were important national security programs to help keep Americans safe, and give us tools to fight the terrorist threat that we face," he said. Boehner said there were adequate safeguards for the NSA programs and that the civil liberties of Americans were “absolutely” being protected. Well, if Boehner likes the NSA spying on Americans, I guess it's okay now.

214 I'm a dirty, dirty whore.

215 if that poll was legit, Snowden will be going to jail for a long time for exposing something over half the country doesn't mind.  That is a unique kind of hero. 

216 Motivations are important here.
-----------------

Are they?

Why?

The NSA has been secretly collecting the phone records of millions of Americans. Are the facts in dispute on this?

217 Revealing the truth was allegedly the whole point of Snowden's decision to turn over top secret material to journalists. If it turns out he was less than truthful, he will have severely damaged U.S. national security for questionable benefit.

---

If the documents are forged, then what's the damage?

If they are not forged, then how does his motivation matter?

218 Because the most important thing about this story is... the guy's pay rate. Gabe, you seem increasingly desperate to shoot the messenger here.

219 Question: if the USPS were taking all this data to determine the right location to expand post offices (and where to shut them down) we'd all point out the good use of metrics as a way of saving money. No, because they don't need sender/receiver information to make that determination. They only need their own route information: that is, how much mail gets post-marked where, and to which post office(s) is it delivered? That, plus population density analysis (which tells you nothing about the population itself) would be more than sufficient to inform the Postal Service where they needed to open new post offices. Saying "Post Office X processed 1,000,000 pieces of mail last month. Of that mail, 42% when via truck to Post Office Y, 10% went via air to overseas destinations, 30% went..." is far different than gathering data about what addresses are sending mail to what other addresses how often.

220 Speaking of credibility issues, Boehner says he sees immigration bill by year's end.  Source:  Fox News.  Just in time to get all of those Hispanics to vote Republican.  Right. 

221 Who is paying his bills? He can't have that much saved up and Hong Kong ain't cheap. Who is hiding him?

222 192 We're rapin' e'erbody up in heah!

Posted by: NSA at June 11, 2013 10:41 AM (RNhbC)

No cannibalism ,yet?

223 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM ...........Who is canonizing him? I think most people think he's a douche. But he did expose a program that nobody in BHO's govt. is denying. The only question is to what extent they are spying on us all. So yea, it's important that he brought it up but I don't see anyone naming parks after him or anything.

224 I just can't fathom why anyone would turn a blind eye to the Administration's over-reach of the scope of FISA. They tried to deflect by claiming it was "federal" not "foreign."

225
They fired him yesterday?
Closing the barn door just in time I see.

Pity. The guy blew his big chance. Had we worked for Obama, and targeted conservatives with his docu-dump, he'd be looking at a plum ambassadorship right about now.

226 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.

So, I guess that means you don't know what his total compensation was, right?  You have no verification to support the self-serving press release on the earth-rumbling issue of SnowdenSalaryGate? 

227

I still haven't seen where he actually did anything "treasonous" by the actual definition of that word.

 

He revealed information on the DOMESTIC application of a program that was not supposed to be applied domestically, and he revealed it to the AMERICAN PEOPLE. 

 

Sure, he did something the government didn't like, and he may well ought to do jail time for it, but simply doing something the government doesn't like isn't "treason."  At least not yet.

228 CJ Cherryh on Snowden and a lot else.

One unified statement on the whole infoleak business.
1. no system is proof against sneakernet unless in total lockdown, and even then...
2. anything the gov't can mine from my data will be sunk in the vast sea of TMI that is totally irrelevant. What it might mine from yours depends on what sites you've been visiting and whether you are of the same political bent as the person doing the snooping.
3. It's not that the government is more intrusive. I recall when rubber hose confessions were routine, typical dramatic scene at the precinct in all the movies, and nobody fussed. We got away from that for a while. Now people who believe they are absolutely right are entrenched in enforcement agencies, and their tenure is, in some cases, quite long.
4. the Patriot Act was a far larger assault on our liberties than 9/11. We were attacked from outside, and we obliging turned on ourselves. Brilliant. We ought to repeal that sucker and disband the airport security mess, which is way out of control.
5. we have a national technology system being run by a congress that thinks baby-making is under conscious control and that witches exist. A 5th grade education should be a prerequisite for congressional office.
6. should they prosecute the guy who did the leak? Probably: a low-level intelligence guy who thinks he knows enough about the system to do a 'righteous' leak without causing damage is an ageold problem, because quite frequently, along with good, he causes other good and innocent people to get killed, sometimes massively so. But I honestly hope we reassess what's going on in general and get rid of the Patriot Act, the Homeland Security office, and a large, large cadre of people who have been employed in these capacities for a decade, now, and who bid fair to entrench themselves and survive this administration as they survived the last.

229 gabe what is the truth? i don't think we have enough of the story to determine that yet......

230 Okay I understand and agree that collecting phone activity and internet activity is an overreach and a violation of the 4th amendment since its done as a sweep. Some highly respected people though have reached a different conclusion. They base this conclusion on the premise that these type records are not private but public. Any claim that this information is public is such utter bullshit that I do not know where to begin. Here's an incredibly simple test to see if information is public or private. Walk into a Verizon store. Ask to see all the metadata for phone calls from your neighbors. Enjoy the tazing when the cops are called because you = creepy stalker. That information is not public in any sense of the term that means that it can be accessed by anyone at large. I know the Feds hate hearing this, but, absent statutory or court intervention, the Feds have no greater rights to a US citizen's information than do I. My question for anyone who knows the answer is, in a criminal investigation does the investigator need a subpoena to get records of cell phone calls? Posted by: polynikes at June 11, 2013 10:34 AM (m2CN7) Yes. That is the entire basis of the claims that Holder committed perjury in the Rosen case. Either he lied to the court or he lied to Congress You know, I was getting in high dudgeon over Andrew McCarthy's various utterly imbecilic claims that none of this was inappropriate until the following struck me. A prosecutor thinks that the investigative arms used by prosecutors should be allowed unfettered access to any and all information that may be used to prosecute someone. It is truly as simple as that.

231 This is SO TOTALLY the wrong tack to take. If Snowden were a dem in a Republican administration, the dems would be championing him as a hero regardless of how weak his story might be. We should be doing the same. Have we learned nothing from them? Narrative trumps facts. PUSH THE NARRATIVE.

232
Is everyone defending Snowden dismissing John Bolton's assessment?
Posted by: polynikes




Think Bolton is the only major player on the right that has come out that strongly against him. The critics from the nominal opposition seem to be the usual rinos, wets and ladder climbers.

233 220 Speaking of credibility issues, Boehner says he sees immigration bill by year's end. Source: Fox News. Just in time to get all of those Hispanics to vote Republican. Right. --- Boehner is a goddamn idiot. Giving this administration ANYTHING to change the subject is stupid. Giving them this is suicidal.

234 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM (i+drs)

-

We don't care about Snowden, we care about    what the NSA is doing with regard to our rights.  The Stasi could only dream about collecting the volumne of data the NSA is doing, and they had close to ten percent of their population spying on the rest of the country.  Snowden isn't the issue - the violation of our rights is.

235 How is Booz Allen covering their asses? Is this just conspiracy theorizing? All they've done is release his salary (to correct the absurd quote) and how long he worked for them (which was also made to seem longer than the actual 10 weeks). Oh, and he was released on account of ethics violations that they didn't specify, but disclosing classified data is sufficient, regardless of what else he did. Gabe is right on this one, they guy is a crapweasel, so skip the trust and go right to verify.

236 204 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM (i+drs) Nobody is canonizing him, but you seem hell bent on believing that government is right and the dumb people of the USA need to be monitored all the time to be sure they don't do nothing stupid? Are you really so naive to believe that this is done to the benefit of us all? Ask the people who grew up under communism how that worked out for them (remember the Gulags). They also thought they did nothing wrong till the State came up with trumped up charges. And don't give me shit, I had enough family members imprisoned or killed that way

237 Clearance + Polygraph

Next time you go job hunting use that stuff as a minefield, ie any prospective employer that shows an interest in that part of your resume is instantly disqualified.  The grass IS greener on the other side.

238 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Who is "canonizing" Snowden? Name me 3 of the Horde who are saying he's some kind of saint. Most of us seem to be on the "he's a douche and should go to jail" side of that. But you can be on that side and still be glad the information came out.

239 LOL, who is lionizing Snowden?  Pretty much every conservative/libertarian/moderate.  They are chiseling his face on mount rushmore as we speak.

240 > What is the cost of living in Hawaii because 120K for 29 year old with no college degree doesn't seem legit either I don't have a college degree, and I'm in that ballpark. Of course it helps that I'm generally the smartest dude in the room. Just ask me. :-)

241 Snowden says it is lonely at the top and asks that Gabe be canonized, too.

242 They'll have him some sort of deviant by the end of the day. Look for it.

243 What does it matter what he made?

244 If the government was your kid, after all these lies, you'd have a tracker on their cell phone, you'd be watching their computer activity every night and you'd have cleaned their room thoroughly and the kid would be grounded in perpetuity.

245 "The NEOCONS might come out against this, sir." "Just dangle the shiny Muslim in front of them."

246 It's cracking me up that anyone thinks $122K versus $200K is a dealbreaker as far as credibility is concerned. maybe he had a company car or company housing, or a signing bonus, or any bonus .... plus you guys sound jealous.

247 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Indeed, I'm much more disgusted by the need to pry into every detail of his life, as though he's the important part of this story. Isn't the important part of this story the veracity of his claims? And isn't that easier to determine by looking at the subject of his claims (that is: the Government)?

248

@204

 

No canonization here. Snowden in all likelihood is a rat assed weinersmoking weasel, but frankly I couldn't give two shits about him. You want to hang the bastard, skin him, go to town man, go to town.

The big stuff he said has been somewhat confirmed. Focusing on Snowden's particulars takes your eye off the ball.

249
I don't see many people claiming the guy is a hero or an idol or to be canonized, I do see alot of other people saying that people are trying to claim the guy is a hero or an idol or to be canonized.

250

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 11, 2013 10:39 AM (CJjw5)

 

Guy clearly has no idea how the encrypted phone system works.

So clearly not a telephone IT guy.

 

I'm willing to submit that there is incredible lack of oversight in the "wiretap" department.  Although I have to believe that it's like the Electronic Health Records problem.  Sure oversight might be lax, but eventually if you do something so remarkably stupid you'll trigger a retroactive audit.

Is this right (no) but it also means his claim seems pretty damned boastful.

251 tom sawyer right or left side?

252
Because the most important thing about this story is... the guy's pay rate.

Gabe, you seem increasingly desperate to shoot the messenger here.

In Gabe's defense, if Snowden has credibility issues, they should be brought to light.

But. IMO, the difference between his claimed salary, and the number cited by his ex-employer do not indicate a credibility problem....for reasons stated in previous posts.

253 if Snowden is lying about a basic detail like his salary,  that means he is probably lying about the NSA's scope as well.  

254

"The credibility being strained is yours, Gabe."

 

Nah, what we're seeing here is that this issue creates a rift.

 

Between people who actually care about the Constitution and people who don't.

255 You know the Information Thrasher is working overtime now in the fields. Suck it up...

256 204 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM (i+drs)

Some people like him, some don't....shocka!

Near as I can tell....the only 'truth' we're arguing over a difference of $73K. 

257

I was under the impression that NSA was recording all phone conversations but had to get a warrant to listen to them.   Is that not true, or do we not know?

 

 

 

.

258 The private sector generally has pretty fluid salaries once you get past a certain level. This was a job at a government contractor, not a government job.

259 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Canonization may be a little far. I think of him as...useful. And since I'm done giving the slightest benefit of the doubt to the Administration, well, let's just say the lesson is learned...and I'll be happy to beat them down with 'truthiness'.

260 Why do we constantly fall for the lefts stupid tricks?

Of course Snowden is going to have some credibility problems, this is the way the left/govt operate.

This is SOP for whistle blowers.

261 244 If the government was your kid, after all these lies, you'd have a tracker on their cell phone, you'd be watching their computer activity every night and you'd have cleaned their room thoroughly and the kid would be grounded in perpetuity. Posted by: Caustic at June 11, 2013 10:49 AM (/b8+5) you are not qualified to speak of parenting....

262 Lots of major players on the right have come out against him. Most of them actually. You might not like him but Boehner kinda counts as a major player.

263 Isn't suggesting Gabe is naive kinda naive?

264 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. ----------------------- I don't. I want to win. The Dems have shown us that the truth doesn't win - the narrative does.

265 Some people like him, some don't....shocka! Near as I can tell....the only 'truth' we're arguing over a difference of $73K. Posted by: Tami at June 11, 2013 10:50 AM (X6akg) And who the hell here is canonizing him? Not me, and I'm sympathetic!

266 .... plus you guys sound jealous.

No shit.  I think every white person in North America makes more than I do.

267 249 " I do see alot of other people saying that people are trying to claim the guy is a hero or an idol or to be canonized." exactly what happened with Palin on this blog

268 Gabe and the troll, desperately trying to take the focus off of the violation of our rights.

269

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 11, 2013 10:50 AM (g5YAm)

 

You have been one of his strongest defenders. 

270 I hate liars more than I hate government spying on my emails.  It is a priority thing.  If you are lying about basic details easily verified and then making wild claims that seem improbable such that you can wiretap anybody, why shouldn't you be disbelieved? 

271 What is the cost of living in Hawaii because 120K for 29 year old with no college degree doesn't seem legit either Very high. Hawaii's expensive, on account of everything having to be shipped in from elsewhere.

272 Were those Google glasses Snowden was wearing in that interview?

273 What happened to Ben's daily Link-o-Rama?

274

@ 232 - "Think Bolton is the only major player on the right that has come out that strongly against him. The critics from the nominal opposition seem to be the usual rinos, wets and ladder climbers."

 

To be quite honest, I haven't trusted Bolton, really, ever. 

 

It's one thing to be legitimately concerned about national security.

 

It's another think to show everyone a phone pic of your hawkwoody just because we have some fancy technology.

275 Seizure of electronic communications without warrant issued on showing of probable cause:  Fourth Amendment violation.  Even a constitutional law professor should know that.  I mean is there a warant exception here I'm not seeing?  Exigent circumstances?  Community caretaking?  Plain view?  WTF? 

276 201 Snowden might be lying. But it seems almost 100% true, in the big parts. Govt has basically fessed up to it.

------------

Ron Wyden, who gets the Sen. intel briefings but was prohibited by law from divulging what he knows,  has essentially confirmed how appalling the extent of domestic spying has reached under Obama.

But maybe he's overstated his base salary to someone too?

277 tom sawyer what about liars spying on your emails?

278 My understanding is that they have collected phone activity (calls to and from, numbers only). That's enough. That's more than enough. And it's a gross violation of the 4th Amendment.

279 204 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM (i+drs) Gabe, this is just hysterical. There is no canonization here that I can see. The general gist seems to me to be "Who the hell cares about this guy?" Of course he's lying about a lot of crap. So's Greenwald. So are most mafia informants. I find it astounding that Booz Allen was paying him as high as $122K. But the main reason for that is: Where are you going to find native-born tech guys who could even pass a security clearance?

280 Washington DC has become quite dispensable.

The only people who value it, are the people in it.

Now is the time to strike.

281 With the likes of Assange and Manning and now this guy I'm not ready to condemn or vilify just yet.   Instinctively, I am deeply concerned about government spying on us.  But to be honest  what worries me most is who is in charge, Republicans or Democrats. Frankly, I was not too worried when George Bush was in charge because I believed in his basic honesty. I do  not trust, for an instant, the Democrats who regularly and routinely demonstrate that their only loyalty  is  to their own party and to staying in power, country be damned. Lesson being  - do not initiate a program that you wouldn't trust Democrats with having access to.

So I guess I come down on the side of saying good for him for letting us know what is going on.

282 Were those Google glasses Snowden was wearing in that interview?


No, those are Gunnar Optiks glasses.


http://www.gunnars.com/

283 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting.


Straw men of the world unite!


Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.


Aren't you the same guy that just blathered about 2) source and 3) cost as though they were relevant?

284 I just threw Snowjob Snowden's credibility ON THE GROUND.  Then I get his credibility IN THE FACE.  BOOM. 

285 Hello - terrorists knew there were being spied on already. It started under Bush. It has been well publicized for YEARS. What is new is spying on average, ordinary, innocent Americans. I m sick of being yanked around by first Bush and now Obama, and the same people on the "right" saying it's for our security. What have they stopped? NOTHING. The feds have stopped nothing (except for the stings they created to make terrorists). Osama wasn't on the internet. I wonder why? He knew we were spying, worldwide on terrorists. They are LYING to us, both parties. Now, they will brief Congress, and they will come out say "Don't worry, it's being taken care of." Like hell it is.

286 As one of the NRO writers at The Corner (I forget which one) pointed out, Snowden seems to have an idealized view of China in the same way Guy Burgess, one of the Cambridge spies, had of Soviet Russia. That comparison is apt. I'm betting Snowden is the grandiose type, with an overinflated sense of self-importance, a man who sees himself at the center of history. Read the Guardian interview article carefully. The things Snowden reveals (and therefore believes to be important enough to include in an abridged introduction of himself) shape a narrative that stars him as the protagonist of a Walter Mitty-esque agitprop delusion that the Comintern would be proud of. The core question is whether the NSA is spying on us domestically. Maybe the answer can be found in some of the leaked documents. Let's see how this plays out. BTW, regarding my red-baiting, read up on Richard M. Stallman. The wikipedia page on him tells most of the story. The guy is politically fairly whacked, but the discombobulated mess conforms with the poison the soviets fed the west during the cold war. Lots of geeks are whackjob leftards politically because they idolize RMS. (and don't get me started on the ones that are even more whackjob because they conflate RMS with Eric S. Raymond). I used to see commies behind every tree. Now not so much. That's because they don't even bother to hide anymore.

287 Yesterday everyone was complaining that they couldn't get a job with booz allen and they have one or two degrees and such and such experience.  Everyone was horrified that this guy has no degree and is making that salary with that job.  I mean people were beside themselves over this.  It was funny to watch all these angry despondent dems.

288 Indeed, I'm much more disgusted by the need to pry into every detail of his life, as though he's the important part of this story. Which mekes me wonder if he has actually saod all of this bs, or is it the media saying it to intentionally shift the narrative.

289 Note that Snowden's family isn't talking about him.  They know he is a fraud who probably has some psychological issues.  Delusions of grandeur with at least some aspects of schizophrenia.

290 Destroy the credibility of the witness. That is the first thing that is done in making sure testimony is called into doubt. Now, we are left with a picture that either Snowdon lied, or BAH lies. So ignore them both for a moment. Now, let’s look at the politicians who have come out and not only confirmed everything he leaked, but are really angry about it too. That’s your truth. From here on in, ignore everything you hear about Snowdon. Look at the reactions of those whom this system serves. As he worked for the CIA previously – that’s how he got his clearance. According to him. But ten minutes from now, the cock will have crowed twice and they will have ignored him (no, I’m not making him Jesus – its a denial reference…) When you have a TS clearance, which I once had before I exited government, its like gold. You can be hired and be put instantly on projects, instead of twiddling your thumbs for a very expensive vacation for several months. THat’s why BHA snapped him up – they don’t pull in someone with his background of no high school, for even 122K. No contract cell phones, encrypted email, used cell phones bought with a prepaid sim card, used laptops gotten dirt cheap, the use of public wifi, encrypted voice mail. And even old fashioned drops. Al Queada, unless they are complete idiots will be using these bits of technology, rendering useless the plans of the NSA. When you actually do have idiots, like the Tsarnov brothers, the system not only can’t catch them, it couldn’t identify them after the fact. This program, and others like it, are tools of the tyrant, or soon to be tyrant. They can be used more easily against the tea party or gun owners than al-queada, since all you have to do is identify the gun owners/tea party and their sympathizers. Does anyone really think its a coincidence that they were hot on the gun grabbing trail earlier this year? This government, and I include Republicans in DC, want to control the population, and if the constitution is smashed along the way, so be it. Now, I may be paranoid about some of what I have written here, but tell me why a professional islamacist would not use basic technology that is freely available to avoid the NSA? And if they are, what use is the program except as a control mechanism? Give me liberty or give me death. Still as true now as then.

291 Sure, he did something the government didn't like, and he may well ought to do jail time for it, but simply doing something the government doesn't like isn't "treason." At least not yet.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at June 11, 2013 10:47 AM (YYJjz)

 

You're deliberately minimizing the gravity of Snowden's crime. His crime, while perhaps not treason (which is one of the hardest crimes to prove and prosecute by intent of the Founders) was graver than 'simply doing something the government doesn't like'.

 

For example, Snowden claims to have data identifying 'every CIA station', which presumably also means he can identify HUMINT assets; i.e., agents in the field, which means that information is now or soon will be in the hands of the Chinese intelligence services. So yes, you're right, it's true the release of this information is 'something the government doesn't like'. I don't like it, either. Neither should you.

292

@ 151 - "Okay I understand and agree that collecting phone activity and internet activity is an overreach and a violation of the 4th amendment since its done as a sweep. Some highly respected people though have reached a different conclusion. They base this conclusion on the premise that these type records are not private but public."

 

 

Sure, and I guess it's also perfectly okay for the Postal Service to hang onto your mail and open it whenever they feel you might be a terrorism suspect, since sending sealed mail is still "public" because it's not physically located in your home or car.

293 I, for one, have enjoyed Gabe's a.m. self-beclownings.  The government is literally spying on its citizens, has admitted as much, and we're supposed to worry about the life details of the guy that clued us all in.  I don't give a shit about the leaker, and every story written about him instead of about what he revealed is just the tumbling and cajoling of a court fool before the king. 

294 Lord Gabe,  it doesn't matter how squirrely Snowden is.    Interception of foreign subjects suspected of involvement in terrorism has never been an issue - its not a closed secret - and reject totatly the assertion that   true or false, hid claims would have any impact on any monitoring or subjects understanding of what could be monitored  except to expand the notion that the surveillance is more extensive than bad foreing actors could possible get around.

Any sort of general warrant analogue with regard to strictly domestic communications or movements or data trawling  is OUT OF BOUNDS and intolerable.   If that's going on,  nothing Snowden could say or do makes it tolerable.

295 My spouse was asking me how Snowden managed to sneak out this slide deck...

I have occasion to go to SCIFs here in my area on a fairly regular basis as a contractor. You cannot bring in any storage media ( including CDs ) and ESPECIALLY not thumb drives. The magnetometers are set ultra sensitive and all of your belongings go through xray.  All workstations are clearly marked with their clearance level and non of them have the USB ports or disk drives enabled ( they are "thin clients" essentially).

I have seen TS/SCI slide decks before and I can tell you , this was one of the WORST I have ever seen.

I suspect Snowden was given a brief and had worked ( tangentially ? ) on the project and made these slides himself using the info he remembered from the brief.
   

296 Only the  President  can  damage  national security by blabbing away secrets.   Obama has made it into an art form.

297 foreing = foreign

298 Let's keep attacking the messenger and not the acknowledging the message. We live in a fucking police state and we care how long the whistleblower worked there, how hot his girlfriend was, how much money he makes, whether he was secretly ghey. I can get this from the fucking MSM. What the fuck fuckity fuck fuck is going on?

299 Gabe is the only one up in here making any sense at all.  Fact is a lot of us want this story to be true for political reasons.

300 I don't see any major Republican political leaders coming out in support of what Snowden did. The closest is Rand Paul -- who is "reserving judgment". So this purity jihad is gonna requiring getting rid of about 99% of elected Republicans? Gotcha.

301 289 Note that Snowden's family isn't talking about him. They know he is a fraud who probably has some psychological issues. Delusions of grandeur with at least some aspects of schizophrenia. Posted by: Tom Sawyer at June 11, 2013 10:55 AM (7zSvv) his family hasn't been instructed by an attorney to not talk?

302 >> Gabe, this is just hysterical. There is no canonization here that I can see.

Yep, Strawman much, Gabe?

Unless "asshole" has become a synonym for "saint," you must be reading a different comment section than I.

303 what about liars spying on your emails?


The government would  never lie  they're  here to help. 

Did you get that out there?  I'm not like the others.

304 I bet Snowden lied about his education too! I bet he didn't drop out of high school, he probably dropped out of 8th grade!

305

I've watched this NSA mess unfold through the weekend and have come to the conclusion that it's a big MEH.   It is no surprise that the NSA is monitoring domestic communications.  That has been going on for years and will continue to go on well into the future. 

 

"I want them on that wall, I need them on that wall!"

 

This is now a distraction to The Real Issues:  An enormous abuse of power via the IRS and a terrible foreign policy / security mess resulting in Benghazi (and the coverup).

306 OT I thought she was hot,now she's hotter. http://tinyurl.com/ksrhohr

307 Very high. Hawaii's expensive, on account of everything having to be shipped in from elsewhere.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, totally not NSA at June 11, 2013 10:52 AM ........Like his girlfriend for instance.

308
I hate liars more than I hate government spying on my emails. It is a priority thing. If you are lying about basic details easily verified and then making wild claims that seem improbable such that you can wiretap anybody, why shouldn't you be disbelieved?

Posted by: Tom Sawyer at June 11, 2013 10:52 AM (7zSvv)

So far, no one has proven, or even attempted to prove, that this guy lied about his salary. And you seem to gloss right over the many posts that do provide reasonable explanations for differences between his claimed pay, and what his employer stated.

309 228 Yeah, pretty much confirms my long-held opinion that I don't give a flowering dog-fart what comes out of C.J. Cherryh's pen or mouth.

310 Don't know what to think about Snowdon, and I realize that this was going on during the Bush administration.That being said I believe the scope of the "spying" has been changed by obama. That's what scares me. I thought Bush was interested in Foreign to American or American to Foreign "calls." Obama is evidently listening in on just about everyone...

311 Snowden's family are not idiots, that's why they aren't speaking publicly.

312

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 10:46 AM (/PCJa)

 

Bollocks

Just because you can't see how that information would be useful in strategic planning doesn't mean it's not useful.

Seeing where you customers come from (and how far they travel) is, in fact, a long tradition in data gathering for business expansion.

Typically places get this by asking for things like you zip code during a transaction. Also they grab it from the credit card data they're allowed as part of a transaction. (American Girl, now run by Mattel is well know to look at the histogram of order locations and use that to determine the location of new stores. This is how St. Louis got a new store before larger cities.)

The Post office could get it off letters.

My question is 1) Is this considered freely given to them 2) if so, what can they do with it (i.e. what's "internal" to the government.)

(Of course there's the argument that it being government changes the relationship so we should have greater firewalls in place to the information that we have to disclose to government.)

313 306 Off,fishy smelling sock

314

His salary being 122K probably doesn't include his total compensation. Heathcare, life insurance, disability, retirement, stipends, etc.

 

I'm guessing he got somewhere close to 200K

315 I hate liars more than I hate government spying on my emails. It is a priority thing. If you are lying about basic details easily verified and then making wild claims that seem improbable such that you can wiretap anybody, why shouldn't you be disbelieved?

Posted by: Tom Sawyer at June 11, 2013 10:52 AM (7zSvv)

I hate government spying on my emails more than I hate liars.

I have a Constitutional right not to be spied on by my government.

I don't have a Constitutional right not to be lied to by a private citizen. 

Besides, please provide me with independent, third-party proof of Snowden's TOTAL compensation, not an unverified, self-serving press release from a government spy contractor that references his "salary" only, and then I'll start to care. 

I know -- we could check with the IRS to see what income he reported!

Oh, wait. 

316

Truth?

 

This administration has grossly violated the First  Amendment by using information to stifle free speech and  influence a national election.

 

This administration has grossly violated the Fourth Amendment by gathering information on innocent Americans without probable cause.

 

Both of   these actions are illegal.

317 I'm really appalled that anyone would concede  any legitimate foreign security includes the government secretly gaining or demanding and getting access to any persons,  let alone millions of persons,  private affairs conducted through calls or mail whether its over the internet or not.

318

@ 291 - "For example, Snowden claims to have dataidentifying 'every CIA station', which presumably alsomeans he can identify HUMINT assets; i.e., agents in the field,which means that information is now or soon will be in the hands of the Chinese intelligence services. So yes, you're right, it's true the release of this information is 'something the government doesn't like'. I don't like it, either. Neither should you."

 

Keep in mind that you're arguing a completely different issue altogether.

 

So far, all that we know Snowden did was reveal information about domestic spying to Greenwald and the Guardian, and therefore to the American people.

 

We do NOT, however, know that he has revealed any other information to any foreign government or other organisation.  True - he may do so in the future, at which point he will have compromised *foreign* service assets and committed treason.  But at the present time, we do not know that he has done so, so it is inaccurate to say that he has committed "treason." 

 

I agree the guy's a sniveling little left-wing turd-burger - but his revelation of NSA spying on basically all Americans, blatantly violating our 4th and 5th amendments in the process and treating all Americans as if we are terrorism suspects, was a good thing.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

319 Fact is a lot of us want this story to be true for political reasons. Fact is a lot of us are horrified at the shredding of our Constitution and the fact that we live in a police state. And our horror knows no damned political boundries.

320 Sure, and I guess it's also perfectly okay for the Postal Service to hang onto your mail and open it whenever they feel you might be a terrorism suspect, since sending sealed mail is still "public" because it's not physically located in your home or car.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at June 11, 2013 10:55 AM (YYJjz)

 

Your example of opening the mail is not comparable.   If they collected the address information on the mail you sent , that would be comparable.

 

No one has made the charge  that the government was listening to any  phone conversations.   They simply collected the numbers being called and received.

321 I'm happy this information is public now. At the same time, Snowden needs to be jailed for a long, long time. He wanted to be a martyr. Most martyrs end up dead, he's lucky if he just gets 20-30 years in a federal prison.

322 But the main reason for that is: Where are you going to find native-born tech guys who could even pass a security clearance? --- Finding ones who could pass the clearance isn't necessarily the problem as much as the amount of time it takes to do so and what they offer vs. other employers. A friend of mine works for a private employer which deals with high-value merchandise. Due to the requirements of their insurance carrier, everyone who works there has to pass a background check and a psych profile, amongst other things, and it takes forever for them to make an offer. By the time they get around to making an offer, the people who are interested have found another job that pays more than what they are willing to offer.

323 That so many people just can't wrap their heads around the fact that a guy could leave a plush job and a smokin' hot girlfriend to follow his principles is rather telling about our society, no? Here she is, morons: http://goo.gl/5ydjU

324 A prosecutor thinks that the investigative arms used by prosecutors should be allowed unfettered access to any and all information that may be used to prosecute someone. It is truly as simple as that. It's almost as if a certain type of lawyer shouldn't be in charge of government. It's hard being right *all the time*.

325 LOL. If you guys really believe Snowden has any new info to offer to "the Chinese", you're naive. 

What he did was offer proof for what many Americans have suspected for years, and for that, we should be thankful. 

326 ^{secretly,  without warrant -  domestic communications of nearly any US citizen, that  is.}  
 

327 >>>So which of these two sources- these two witnesses, if you will, is more credible? That's a fair point, and you make a strong case that the government's information -- it's denial that PRISM is intercepting Americans' internet traffic -- is suspect. But that does not automatically mean Snowden's information is not suspect. As I have discussed, the PRISM information is pretty clearly suspect. It is true as a matter of logic that both the government's denial and its opposite, Snowden's information, cannot both be true. But where two contrary pieces of information are both suspect, that's the point were we have to conclude we don't know enough to make a conclusion. Two other things. One, Phinn, Booz Allen is telling reporters that, because he was still a probationary employee, Snowden was not eligible for any bonuses. Two, those of you claiming that this isn't about Snowden, it's about a program targeting Americans, are merely taking Guardian's word for it -- WaPo already retracted that claim, as I discussed in the post. And, of course, Guardian's only source for the claim is Snowden. I'm reminded how many times ya'll fault me for believing what I read in the papers, so I'm amused that so many of you ready to accept this story at face value despite the suspect indicators. I used the term "canonize" because I thought the alternative -- "idolize" -- was a bit harsh. Now I'm starting to think that's really what is happening here. I mean, look how angry some of ya'll are that I would even dare to question Snowden's story.

328
Your example of opening the mail is not comparable. If they collected the address information on the mail you sent , that would be comparable.

No one has made the charge that the government was listening to any phone conversations. They simply collected the numbers being called and received.

Posted by: polynikes at June 11, 2013 10:59 AM (m2CN7)

Excet
Your example of opening the mail is not comparable. If they collected the address information on the mail you sent , that would be comparable.

No one has made the charge that the government was listening to any phone conversations. They simply collected the numbers being called and received.

Posted by: polynikes at June 11, 2013 10:59 AM (m2CN7)

they can open the mail.  And have opened the mail.   And will open the mail.

329

 he went to china

 

he did this after only being at his civilian employer 3 months.  Like he took the job to get access

 

his biography has a few holes in it

 

he has "disappeared"

 

there are a lot of reasons to be worried about this guy

 

it does not mean I love the constitution any less, or trust this government at all

 

 

330 It would be a lot easier if not for the girlfriend.

331 314
His salary being 122K probably doesn't include his total compensation. Heathcare, life insurance, disability, retirement, stipends, etc.

I'm guessing he got somewhere close to 200K

Posted by: Ben at June 11, 2013 10:59 AM (C2Y4l)

NO! Look at this squirrel!!

332 OT I thought she was hot,now she's hotter.

http://tinyurl.com/ksrhohr

Posted by: sea lion at June 11, 2013 10:57 AM (mUSYR)

* cues up "Whole Lotta Love" intro guitar riff in my mind *

333 Just because you can't see how that information would be useful in strategic planning doesn't mean it's not useful. Seeing where you customers come from (and how far they travel) is, in fact, a long tradition in data gathering for business expansion. I didn't say not useful. I said not necessary. Those are two different words for a reason. Absolutely it may be "useful" to collect that data. It may even be that by not collecting that data, Post Offices are distributed a little less efficiently than they otherwise would be. But it is not "necessary" to the subject at hand (planning new offices). Also, when I'm talking about a private company: A) I have the option of not giving my demographic information. B) It's a private company who, if they require my private information, I can choose not to employ. C) If a private company uses my information inappropriately (as defined by law) I and others can sue them. We've already proven that the government will hide behind "The same law that makes it illegal to leak that information makes it illegal for us to identify the leaker." Bringing in private companies only confuses the matter. Should the US Federal Government have the ability to track your correspondence (without a warrant issued on sworn or affirmed probable cause)? Yes, or no?

334 327 oh brother.

335 Contrary to popular belief, considering the government monstrosity that's been revealed, Snowden is mostly irrelevant in all of this. He's just the messenger however flawed he may be.

336 How exactly was national security damaged? I'm not going to get all concerned about this kind of lawbreaking until I see some people locked up for lying to congress. namely about half of Obama's cabinet as well as various other spokespersons.

337 As I posted elsewhere, the Russians told us about Tamerlan Tsarnaev. The FBI monitored him for months and let him travel to Dagestan.

Somehow the FBI missed the fact that the fellow was learning how to make pressure-cooker bombs and becoming a Jihadi--who had probably helped decapitate his best friend and two other people. Or at least that's what the FBI says now to explain why they gunned down his cohort in Florida.

So explain to me again how all this wide-net big data that's allowing the government to monitor *everyone* is the best way to fight terrorism. They can't catch an actual terrorist when they have his individual phone bugged!

338 >>>desperately trying to take the focus off of the violation of our rights. You don't know that a violation of out rights occurred.

339 So Gabe, they want to prosecute him for revealing top-secret info that... wasn't true?

340 *our rights.

341

The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM (i+drs)

 

--------------------------

 

Well, I'm sure you'll  spend 42 minutes  of the next 45 minute long AoSHQ podcast telling us about the truth, so we have that to look forward to.

342

@305

 

Depends comrade. That wall they're on that you want and need them on. Is that to keep the barbarians out, or us in?

 

PRISM doesn't look so hot as a tool to keep them out. Looks like it could work gangbusters at keeping us in.

 

Juvenile might have been onto something about watchmen

343 Gabe appears to be covering for the admin. on this one.  Maybe he finds TFG dreamy.

344 338,

Is this real life?

345

@338

 

You mean as interpreted by the courts post new deal violation of the rights or do you mean the spirit of the 4th amendment as drafted violation of rights?

346 Hang Snowden.  
If the NSA is collecting and trawling data of US citizens as a matter of course,  as if they could come in my office and ransack my trash can, tune into my conversations or contacts,  with no specific justification and warrant  -  that information will be abused. 

347

@ 320 - "No one has made the charge that the government was listening to any phone conversations. They simply collected the numbers being called and received."

 

Nope, because the claim has been made that all calls are recorded and stored, should they decide they want to listen to them at a later date.

 

Nobody is claiming that the NSA is sitting around all old-school like in their fedora hats smoking cigars while they actively listen in on the calls.  But they *are* collecting the data and storing it - which is unconstitutional.

 

I can't find the link right now, but Drudge had a link a few days ago about a reporter to whom the FBI played back some audio of his phone calls, presumably obtained from the NSA data, since nothing was said about a specific warrant obtained by the FBI to tap his phone.

348 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Gabe, I have often disagreed with you, particularly on social issues, but you are 100% correct. I just don't get why many on the right are so eager to lionize this guy when in almost any other context he'd be branded a traitor.

349
The great thing about PRISM is we can make anybody have a credibility problem.

350 Two, those of you claiming that this isn't about Snowden, it's about a program targeting Americans, are merely taking Guardian's word for it -- WaPo already retracted that claim, as I discussed in the post. And, of course, Guardian's only source for the claim is Snowden. I'm reminded how many times ya'll fault me for believing what I read in the papers, so I'm amused that so many of you ready to accept this story at face value despite the suspect indicators.

This type of program was reported in USA TODAY in 2006.  The Information Awareness Office was nominally defunded in 2002, but then reorganized under different departments.  It was conducted as to e-mails in the 1990s under ECHELON and CARNIVORE.

What do you think the Utah Data Center is for?  A kick-ass Netflix subscription? 

Fuck you and your amusement. 

351 what if Snowden handed over the "key" for turn key tyranny to the Chinese

352 You don't know that a violation of our rights occurred.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 11:05 AM (i+drs)

-

You're saying that what the phone companies and internet providers    have already    admitted to isn't happening?

353 IIRC, Obama forced out one IG dealing with AmeriCorps, pressued the State Dept IG over the accused US Ambassador to Belgium havving sex with kids, and NSA wants us to believe them because of what the IG supposedly said? Really?  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining

354

The media have been fed the orders to destroy Snowden's credibility.  It's pretty lame they tried to do it with this salary story.

 

As others have pointed out, in a 200K compensation package a 120K base is right in line. 

 

In his interview, Snowden didn't seem like someone who would pad the salary to make himself seem bigger.  This is bullshit.

 

 

355 Don't canonize me, bro!

356 152 Just remember... the same people arguing that this spying is necessary to your security won't secure the border--which would be easier, cheaper, more effective and, most importantly, LEGAL.
-------------------

Nor were the same people interested in keeping tabs on the Tsarnaev brothers. Not were they too keen on keeping track of 266 foreign nationals in the US already classified as dangerous and nonchalantly "lost" by DHS, per the GAO the other day.

These same people routinely let intel about the bad guys secured through ordinary means slip through their hands, but the same folks who've turned the IRS & EPA into a multi-agency Stasi to punish the President's critics should be allowed to monitor through extraordinary means the private communications of citizens who've never been classified as dangerous in a fishing expedition to 'keep us safe' in a War on Terror the same President has said he's declared over.

Yeah, that makes sense.

357 Yes, Gabe, I'm sure it's all fine. Snowdon lies about his salary, so, we can't conclude there's any violations of our rights going on here, the 5 other executive branch scandals notwithstanding. We should totally give this administration the benefit of the doubt, and I should stop slaughtering goats in front of my shiny golden Snowdon idol. Got it.

358

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at June 11, 2013 11:07 AM (YYJjz)

 

They are not recording phone calls without warrants and  storing them.  

359 Tom Sawyer is a troll - look at his posts yesterday.

360 It already has,  Gabe.   There are already cases where that information was improperly used -  even in monitoring of foreign sat calls of soldiers - but domestic communications of American citizens on American soil who did nothing to draw suspicion upon themselves.

361 picking on stuff that doesn't matter, you are doing just what the leftists do...

I don't care who Snowden is, I all I care about is finding out about what the NSA is doing.

f$^% your smear campaign, it means nothing to me.

362 If they collected the address information on the mail you sent , that would be comparable. Which I already pointed out why that would be problematic. Two, those of you claiming that this isn't about Snowden, it's about a program targeting Americans, are merely taking Guardian's word for it -- WaPo already retracted that claim, as I discussed in the post. And, of course, Guardian's only source for the claim is Snowden. British news papers, including the Guardian, have been much more reliable in reporting the actual news regarding the US Government for at least the last 4 years. I'll take the Guardian's word before I take the WaPo's. As for "is the information true" that is the pivotal question, isn't it? Which means, at the bare minimum we should have it investigated. The House would seem the logical group to investigate, but I like my idea of people empaneled specifically by the States better- fewer ties to the Federal Government. One point I should make though- if he were just flat lying, why harping on the "Leaking" and "National Security Concern?" If he's really full of crap, then his apparent defection to China is much less problematic than it is if he's telling the truth.

363 I work for a Booze competitor. My base is 140K, I will get a 20-40K bonus, and the firm has a benefit of ~25K that it adds to my retirement account (not matching) that is counted as part of the total compensation. If his base is 122K than 200K for total comp sounds exactly right.

364

@ 327 - "Two, those of you claiming that this isn't about Snowden, it's about a program targeting Americans, are merely taking Guardian's word for it -- WaPo already retracted that claim, as I discussed in the post. And, of course, Guardian's only source for the claim is Snowden. I'm reminded how many times ya'll fault me for believing what I read in the papers, so I'm amused that so many of you ready to accept this story at face value despite the suspect indicators. "

 

IIRC, Ron Wyden, a Senator who *received briefings about the program* has more or less confirmed in a roundabout, non-arrestable way that Snowden's info is pretty much on the mark. 

365 No one has made the charge that the government was listening to any phone conversations. They simply collected the numbers being called and received. And your emails? Courtesy of Google, Microsloth, etc...

366 Screw whether he is lying about his salary.  He is definitely lying about having access to all of the CIA stations and agents. 

367 Here is what concerns me.  As I recall he said he could have shut down the entire system in a time frame that I remember, when I read that, made me nauseous and worried.

368

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 11, 2013 11:04 AM (/PCJa)

 

Obviously when you phrase it like that the answer is "no."

Of course when the solution to the problem is just not to put a return address on something, it seems slightly less clear cut.

Of course the simpler answer is to remove the government from as many service providing positions as possible, thus they get the opportunity to collect the least amount of information from me. 

369 If they canonize him, he'd better have a net at the other end.


Weaponized  Snowden.

370 The mere collection, spying on domestic communications data -  even if for some future time it might be handy  - is just as much a violation of the 4rth amendment as sticking a GPS on my car and recording where I go.   THat's illegal even if you don't look at it until you want it.

371

@ 359 - "They are not recording phone calls without warrants and storing them."

 

And, of course, I'm supposed to simply accept this because J. Random DefCon on AoSHQ says so...

372 I should sayin  lying  about his job position having  that information.   Its possible  he illegally obtained the information.   

373 Brian Cobbs, you're a liar! 140 plus 40 plus 25 is $205K, not $200K!

374 And earlier this morning Gabe said...."I didn't realize that it had been confirmed that Snowden was the source for Greenwald's cell phone metadata scoop."



This place will give ya whiplash.

375 "If it turns out he was less than truthful, he will have severely damaged U.S. national security for questionable benefit."


Please explain how Snowden "severely damaged US national security." Please tell me what information Snowden disclosed that could possibly help terrorists.


The only thing Snowden did was confirm what has long been suspected since the 1990's: that the NSA illegally spies on Americans. Thanks to him, lawsuits against the NSA can now move forward.

376 O.K. Can we please stop arguing over if it's 200K counting his life,  dental and 401K for farks sake? Who gives a flaming poo? And canonization? Really Gabe? C'mon. Most people seem to think he's an egotistical douche. But that egotistical douche clued everyone in on a domestic spying program that we didn't know about. Whatever crime he committed he ought to pay for and I'll give him no quarter there. Just because you might not like a law doesn't mean you shouldn't face the consequences and he should. The truth I care about is just what type of things are they looking at? The "F" in FISA is supposed to be foreign, not federal.  

377 Even though HK /= China, perhaps Snowden is on to something.  At least the Chinese are aware and accepting of the fact they live in a police state.  Perhaps we should take after them in using code on the internet to discuss things. 

378 >>>So Gabe, they want to prosecute him for revealing top-secret inf that... want true? The slides were authentic, and top secret. But note what they didn't say: that the program was targeting American's internet traffic. That was Snowden's explanation. >>>Maybe he find this TFG dreamy. You do the commenters who argue in good faith a disservice.

379 he said he knows the locations of hte stations, not that he has access

380 And your emails? Courtesy of Google, Microsloth, etc...

Posted by: rickb223 at June 11, 2013 11:10 AM (qc7at)

 

No one has confirmed that the content of e-mails have been collected.  

381 368 Here is what concerns me. As I recall he said he could have shut down the entire system in a time frame that I remember, when I read that, made me nauseous and worried. Posted by: Caustic at June 11, 2013 11:11 AM (/b8+5) aw....

382 Look people, all you people sitting there whining about the "Constitution" are a buncha traitors.  We got a war to fight, and we're in it to win it!  If that means we have to record all of your phone calls, then that's just because all you people might possibly be terrorists one day.  If you ain't done nothing wrong, then you ain't got nothing to worry about.

383 he said he knows the locations of hte stations, not that he has access

Posted by: secretary of state at June 11, 2013 11:13 AM (SKC4r)

 

Okay, he says he has access to information on all CIA stations and agents.  Not true for his job description. 

384 >>> Which means, at the bare minimum we shills have it investigated. I agree.

385 No one has confirmed that the content of e-mails have been collected. Isn't that what Prism was all about?

386 I think Whitey Bulger is innocent. He was indicted based on the testimony of known killers and gangsters.

387 343 Gabe appears to be covering for the admin. on this one. Maybe he finds TFG dreamy. Has anyone ever seen Gabe and Charles Icarus Johnson in the same room together?

388 Of course when the solution to the problem is just not to put a return address on something, it seems slightly less clearcut. But a) we've been told not putting a return address is a possible sign of terrorism, b) putting a return address is polite- especially when first corresponding with someone new, and c) putting a return address is necessary if there is a chance that the mail cannot be delivered, and you would need it back in that case (say: sensitive legal documents). I do not have a requirement to make myself as "small" as possible so that the government does not notice me. The government does have a requirement to protect my right to being secure in my person and my papers.

389 polynikes:  wrong.  The NSA has already admitted doing it "by mistake".

390

@367

 

Assuming what we know about PRISM is correct, is that really so far fetched? Couldn't one use such a system to detect spies?

391 Gabe, I have often disagreed with you, particularly on social issues, but you are 100% correct. I just don't get why many on the right are so eager to lionize this guy when in almost any other context he'd be branded a traitor.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at June 11, 2013 11:08 AM >>>>>>>>>>>Again, like I asked Gabe, whom here is lionizing or canonizing this guy?

392 Once again, and especially for Gabe. Snowden is just the messenger. He's irrelevant to the actual message delivered. Perspective, people.

393 Also - I had a signing bonus of 20K, but that was a couple of years ago. He just started this year and probably got a signing bonus of the same size. So Gabe - your entire post is wrong. You draw a conclusion based on a misunderstanding of how consultants are paid. This is the equivalent of me saying, "as an attorney your billable rate is $300 and hour so you're LYING when you say your salary is only $160K a year". Actually, I just didn't understand how that market worked, so I shouldn't draw any conclusions from my own ignorance.

394 No one has confirmed that the content of e-mails have been collected.

So, then answer this simple question.  If the content of the emails (and phone calls) has not been collected, how can they tag those calls for "more scrutinization (read as, reading the content of the emails/listening to the actual calls) later?

395
381 And your emails? Courtesy of Google, Microsloth, etc...
Posted by: rickb223 at June 11, 2013 11:10 AM (qc7at)

No one has confirmed that the content of e-mails have been collected.

Posted by: polynikes at June 11, 2013 11:13 AM (m2CN7)

_{Clapper jokes it up at banquet: 'Some of you expressed surprise that I showed up -- so many emails to read!'
from drudge, didn't follow the link but people only read the headline anyway.}

396 No one has confirmed that the content of e-mails have been collected. Well, yes, actually they have. But even if they hadn't, just knowing who is sending email to whom is a big f'n deal.

397

@ 389 - "Has anyone ever seen Gabe and Charles Icarus Johnson in the same room together?"

 

Oh c'mon, give Charles some credit, would ya?

398 374Brian Cobbs, you're a liar! 140 plus 40 plus 25 is $205K, not $200K! 

Posted by: secretary of state at June 11, 2013 11:12 AM (SKC4r)

 

The first year I earned over 200K was 1986 (back when 200K was a lot of money).  It was a 125K base, a general bonus as a percentage of the base that everyone got, a special bonus for executives, car allowance, club membership/dues/expenses, key person life insurance/disability and a couple of other perks that entered into the W-2.

 

It gets complicated and wouldn't show up clearly for a guy who only was in the job for 3 months.

399 204 The canonization of Snowden is just disgusting. Almost like some of you don't give a damn what the truth is. Posted by: Gabriel Malor at June 11, 2013 10:43 AM (i+drs) It's almos like you are more concerned with sliming an irrelevant citizen than worrying about what a massive govt can do with unchecked data mining, you pompous ass. This situation is really exposing the true conservatives from the fake ass neocons who think anything government does as long as it's for a "good reason" is perfectly okay. Go suck Bush's cock, Gabe.

400 384,
I totally agree! The Constitution is an outdated piece of paper, what's really important is not embarrassing the American government! Anyone who does that, regardless of whether their actions are in line with that piece of paper and help American citizens, is a traitor!

401

@ 398 - "But even if they hadn't, just knowing who is sending email to whom is a big f'n deal."

 

Incidentally, isn't it sad that we've reached a point where unless you're specifically within the four walls of your home or the four doors of your car, nothing you do can be considered "private"?

402 polynikes: wrong. The NSA has already admitted doing it "by mistake".

Posted by: SarahW at June 11, 2013 11:16 AM (LYwCh)

 

Can you direct me to this info.  Can't seem to find it.  

403 A Google search for "privacy is treason" yields 7 results. 

Seven.

Let's hope my comment here makes it 8. 

Thanks for taking the time, Gabe, to ask meaningless questions about Snowden's compensation package, and in so doing, standing for the (unstated) principle that all official statements are to be believed reflexively, while all statements from non-official persons are to be scrutinized, and deemed to be discredited whenever they conflict with other official statements. 

After all, privacy is treason. 

404 If it turns out he was less than truthful, he will have severely damaged U.S. national security for questionable benefit. Finding for that our government not only desires to have records of all our phone usage, but is actively doing so is not of questionable benefit.

405

Please explain how Snowden "severely damaged US national security." Please tell me what information Snowden disclosed that could possibly help terrorists.

-------------------------

 

That their  Hotmail, Yahoo, Skype, Facebook, Gmail, Pinterest, and  Houzz accounts  are  fully  compromised.  You don't think that's important? 

 

We  know  the NSA is targeting foreign  account holders.  They've  admitted that.  Snowden  claims that the NSA  is ALSO targeting American account holders.  That claim has  not been proven.  It's his word against the NSA's.

 

Now, obviously, this  administration has  credibility problems.  That's not at issue.

 

But Snowden ALSO has credibility  issues.  That's being ignored.  And they're not little ones.  In the rush to have their worst suspicions  of Obama confirmed, a lot of people are glossing over  some pretty  big holes that have yet to be filled in through outside corroboration of this dick's story.

 

I think that's what Gabe's trying to say. 

406 That so many people just can't wrap their heads around the fact that a guy could leave a plush job and a smokin' hot girlfriend to follow his principles is rather telling about our society, no?

Here she is, morons: http://goo.gl/5ydjU

Posted by: CTD at June 11, 2013 11:00 AM (CVBNI)

 

If by 'following his principles' you mean 'feeding his delusions' then yeah, sure, got it. Checked out Snowden's now-former girlfriend. That acrobatic routine she's doing looks suspiciously like pole-dancing with a rope, but hey, nothing wrong with that. And no, I can't tell you what our reactions to Snowden's actions tell us about our society. Speaking truth to power is one thing since civil disobedience is bred into our national DNA. Stealing secrets and then running off to communist China is another thing entirely.

407 After all, privacy is treason. That does seem to be the coin of this particular realm. Unless you're Teh One's transcripts...

408 Gabe, we desperately need someone to idolize. We have empty lives, nothing has meaning. You seem to be very smart. Can we idolize you?

409 Everyone believes the salary.  Maybe the extra came from bonuses and perks.  Or maybe he had another job. 

410 Easily distracted from the real story which is NSA's over reach, huh? Too bad. re Booz Allen, they have been given an embarrassing black eye. I expect them to say and do anything to discredit the whistleblower and save their reputation (fat govt. contract).

411 You know, if you include his dental, life insurance, disability 401K matching and the free doughnuts in the break room on Friday's then I think we're getting to the great unsolved and most important mystery of St. Snowden's salary.

412 > The slides were authentic, and top secret. But note what they didn't say: that the program was targeting American's internet traffic. It's almost charming--in a way--your naivety.

413 Hey there are guys on the conspiracy blogs talking about Catch 22 and the name snowden and others talking about Arturian legend and the snowden name.  So really Gabe could have gone either of those routes too.

414 Someone in the comments some where says Greenwald has so much stuff, we'll be reading his stuff for years"

415 I think that's what Gabe's trying to say.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 11, 2013 11:20 AM ..........Could be, He just went about it in a really crappy way by declaring that we somehow think this douchenozzle is the shizzle.

416 It's hard to imagine a whiter name than Edward Snowdon. Too bad Snowdon's name wasn't Malik Kenyatta or something equally ethnic. Then it would have been perfectly OK with Gabe if we idolized him.

417 Doesn't someone have to be a bit nuts to scream out "Look What They Who Are All Powerful Are Doing In Secret" (while knowing they will t the very least prosecute you)? MOST people just deal with disilluionsment inside themselves, or quit the job. Most people don't tell. How do I know? Look at the Obama Regime - how many THOUSANDS of people have known what evil, criminal things they are doing, yet told no one. So, I would cut the guy some slack. I do wish he didn't mention the CIA sites, or go to Hong Kong etc... Troublesome to say the least. Funny how the words from DC aren't criticizing that, but the spying on Americans leak...

418 The neocons signing off on this seizure of data are every bit the threat to our Republic that the leftists are. These fake conservatives run cover for the left at crucial moments like this, providing them intellectual and credibility cover for the power grab. This data is so incredibly easy to abuse that once it's collected and put in one place, the fact that it will be abused eventually is inevitable. This is not rocket science. Anyone who is in support of gathering this information is a traitor to our Bill of Rights. But that doesn't matter, because he doesn't make as much money as he said he did! Right, Gabey boy?

419 You know, if you include his dental, life insurance, disability 401K matching and the free doughnuts in the break room on Friday's then I think we're getting to the great unsolved and most important mystery of St. Snowden's salary. Don't worry what Booz Allen says. Focus on how much he had to report to the IRS. BTW, just sw of Little Rock.

420 That their Hotmail, Yahoo, Skype, Facebook, Gmail, Pinterest, and Houzz accounts are fully compromised. You don't think that's important? Well, let's see, those sites/services are all hosted in: US, US, US, US, US and US. I would think that all are potential risks if I'm up to general mayhem and other naughtiness, and would either avoid them, or just use them as normal, but keep my actual naughty business away from them. But hey, we're not talking about the sharpest knives in the drawer, are we?

421 polynikes: wrong. The NSA has already admitted doing it "by mistake".
Posted by: SarahW at June 11, 2013 11:16 AM (LYwCh)

Can you direct meto this info. Can't seem to find it.

Posted by: polynikes at June 11, 2013 11:19 AM (m2CN7)

 

All I can find are charges by the Guardian that PRISM may have collected content even though the program specifically forbids it  since that is not tightly monitored. 

 

If  they have collected content and continue to store it ,  that is where the focus should be and not on the metadata collection.   This  will require specific examples. 

422 The slides were authentic, and top secret. But note what they didn't say: that the program was targeting American's internet traffic. That was Snowden's explanation.

"Targeting" seems to be the NSA's favorite buzzword. If I walk into a crowded theater and spray fire an AK-47 into the crowd, is that OK because I'm not "targeting" anyone?

423
Someone in the comments some where says Greenwald has so much stuff, we'll be reading his stuff for years"

According to Greenwald, Snowden gave him thousands of documents.

424 Just to let you know, Snowden drove around with his dog on the roof of his car!

425 384 Look people, all you people sitting there whining about the "Constitution" are a buncha traitors. There are just no words anymore...excuse this traitor while I go "whine" about the Constitution of the United States of America and the brave men who gave their lives for my freedom. Maybe I will also whine about my 5 great-uncles who fought in WWII. One came back with one leg. One came back gutshot. Another was a POW in a stinking German prison. But here I go, whining again.

426 Wait, what?

 We're hearing 1) The fact that the US has been doing this for years has been an open secret, yet 2) Snowden has severely damaged US national security for questionable benefit confirming that open secret.

But if he's a liar who is falsely confirming "an open secret", how does he damage US national security?

Doesn't he just damage the credibility of those who have been trafficking in false "open secrets" about what the US has been up?

427 Also, it has long been rumored that Microsoft cooperates with certain 3 letter agencies to assist them with their spy craft in terms of a certain operating system. There are reasons why the Commies in China packaged up Red Flag Linux. Knowing with certainty the provenence of your operating system was one of them.

428 Yeah, they're only taking in national data with this, supposedly! The fact that they could just flip the switch and change that entire apparatus over to domestic whenever they want, why, that's irrelevant! Just like Social Security, when it first came into being, the Social Security tax was very small, and the social security eligibility age was set at the average lifespan age. And, since programs like this never change, that's exactly how it is today! We can trust this program to be exactly the same, it will never expanding scope overtime! There is no risk whatsoever in giving them the power they're asking for now, because it will never expand later! Right, Gabey Boy?

429 This guy lied to make President Obama look bad. Why does he hate person's of color and we did he want to hurt America? President Obama has been trying so hard to fix the problems Bush created without this nonsense. President Obama should put this guy in that GITMO place in Key West.

430 Only taking in *International data. Typo.

431 Aargh. Sorry about all the typos on all my posts. That's why I'm a lurker instead of a commenter. I need an editing function before 11AM.

432

I want to know why with all this sophisticated NSA shit we can't find illegal aliens. Gee, I don't know where they are.

 

Hey, NSA, here's a tip: cruise the parking lot of any Home Depot!

 

And why can't they find WTF was illegally donating to Hussein's campaign from overseas? Hmmm? That would actually be a legitimate thing for them to do, IMO.

 

Meanwhile, they find out about terrorists in the US by turning on the news.

433 "Targeting" seems to be the NSA's favorite buzzword. If I walk into a crowded theater and spray fire an AK-47 into the crowd, is that OK because I'm not "targeting" anyone?

Exactly. 

It goes back to the fine (but meaningless) distinction between collection of American data as the "primary purpose" of espionage, as opposed to it happening, you know, as a side effect. 

In other words, the government gets to hide behind its supposedly pure intentions and purposes, rather than being criminals because of their actions. 

Typical Leftism -- "We can't be criminals because we are pure of heart."

434

Well, let's see, those sites/services are all hosted in: US, US, US, US, US and US. I would think that all are potential risks if I'm up to general mayhem and other naughtiness, and would either avoid them, or just use them as normal, but keep my actual naughty business away from them.

---------------------------

 

Neither would you use a satellite phone, which we intercepted with great success in the early 2000s, until  that  tidbit was leaked.  Just because YOU don't think you'd put anything important on those services doesn't mean that terrorists don't.  And the  location of the servers is immaterial - I can sign up for Gmail anywhere on the planet.

435 The Military and the Intelligence Community has to STOP farming this shit out to private contractors. I don't care how much money it "might" save.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 11, 2013 10:11 AM (9Bj8R)

========

It's not about money, it's about deniability.  The "rogue contractor" is much easier to explain away than the "rogue fed".

436 Greenwald and Snowden have managed to divide both the left and the right ... amazing

437 Was I right?  Or was I right.

http://youtu.be/OuKZW9FYpFw?t=14m

438 Greetings: Geez, even Bruce Lee could have figured out that Hong Kong isn't the place to go if the "Triads" are after you.

439

Ahhh.... the discrediting continues.... how.... not surprising...

 

They are going to tear this guy apart, in every conceivable way, even though they already ADMITTED the big part of his story is correct.

 

The Power mongers in the MSM and Government, sees this scandal as a threat to THEIR power... so...

440 John has a long mustache.  I repeat.

John ha732061206C6F6E67206D75737461636811001010101110

441

Posted by: Tiglon at June 11, 2013 11:32 AM (wFIKe)

 

Uh.... on the Net, you cannot TELL what is international data, vs. Domestic Data, UNTIL YOU LOOK INSIDE IT!

442 The Power mongers in the MSM and Government, sees this scandal as a threat to THEIR power... so... Posted by: Romeo13 at June 11, 2013 11:37 AM (lZBBB) So snowden is Joe the Plumber with a security clearance and better info?

443 His credibility on the central issue, that our government has apparently thrown the Constitution in the $hi773r is unimpaired, however. That's what is important to me. Oh , and anyone who wants to say I'm "whining about the Constitition" can blow me. Privacy is NOT treason, but trying to overthrow the Constitution IS.

444 Personally I don't mind the NSA building a massive data warehouse in Utah to collect and store this information: http://wapo.st/15PvISR ...because they promise not to target Americans, only scary Muslims.

445 Snowden has a pole dancer for a girlfriend, so let's just disregard everything and believe the people who pinned Benghazi on a Youtube video

446 62 Snowden is the pretty shiney thing. Watch the other hand. Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 11, 2013 10:16 AM (XIxXP) ~ Smartest thing I've read about Snowden/NSA.

447 Snowden has a pole dancer for a girlfriend, so let's just disregard everything and believe the people who pinned Benghazi on a Youtube video Posted by: kbdabear at June 11, 2013 11:40 AM (mCvL4) Well, I bet hillary had her way with a few pole dancers.

448 Fun watching three or four people jumping through their own assholes to discredit this guy.

449 Ironic, the NSA is collecting all the minutia of our lives, and some folks don't think it matters. Look how the whistleblowers private info is being used to shape a narrative unfavorable to him. In the future it could be any one of us.

450 Uh.... on the Net, you cannot TELL what is international data, vs. Domestic Data, UNTIL YOU LOOK INSIDE IT!

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 11, 2013 11:39 AM (lZBBB)

You see, The NSA's HONORABLE INTENTIONS are to only look at foreign data, and not ACCIDENTALLY spy on Americans on a daily basis.

So, they worked extra super hard to come up with heuristics and parameters that tell them when the data they're spying on is likely to be foreign or domestic.

And I'm sure this scary-smart system of protecting Americans' privacy works, too. Probably at least 40% of the time. 

451 Snowden could easily have been making in the neighborhood of $200k with bonuses and benefits like 401(k) matching.  So I wouldn't conclude he was lying about that. 

452

Just a thought...

 

On one hand, we are told that Obama Administration denials are not credible because they've been caught lying in other areas (IRS, FnF, Rosen taps, etc) and so they can't be trusted.

 

But on the other, we have Snowden, who has apparently been caught in, shall we say, misstatements, but that doesn't mean he's mischaracterizing this particular leak so he should be trusted.

 

All in all, this is a big shit sandwich.

453

he will have severely damaged U.S. national security

 

How? How does this actually jeopardize security, for the government spying program to be acknowledged to exist?

454 Who knows who or what Snowden is.   It hardly matters because any side or interest with any motive could have cultivated his performance.

The question is not even what NSA has tried to do or gotten away with so far -  there is just one single object.   And that is to end  or forestall any general collection of sensitive private information   on the citizenry in our ordinary private domestic affairs,  by an agency charged with foreign intelligence gathering.     That includes the timing and location of our calls,  who is near us at any given time,   what emails we right and who our correspondents are.   Facebook cannot hand over pictures of your two-year-old's birthday party without your express permission,  they must disclose anything they disclose. 

No such spying should be permitted without an   domestic warrant with specific information and specific individuals in mind,  with all assertions made in pursuit of the warrant subject to prosecution for perjury and/or abuse of authority.  

455 So let's disregard this because Snowden is the only source? I'm sure other sources know damn well that "snitches get stitches" when it comes to Team Obama

456 And that's to GATHER the information,  not to gain access to some NSA database.

457 New thread on pervy ambassador.

458 I harkin back to one name. What happens when something goes down, big, bombing etc. Feds and locals hit a dead end. Hey, lets punch some keywords into our super computer till we find some matches, get the most likely charecter and close the case. So little effort, all looks good on paper, LEOs are heros, Bipartisan support, all is well, right? Oh, the name. Richard Jewell.

459 Yeah, this jibes about Snowden. I've known a few other clowns like him in my time--in the same plane of reality as we are, but seeing it from a different phase angle.

He might have added in his benefits package to get to $200k. At any rate, I doubt he gets asylum much of anywhere.

460 If it follows the usual pattern, soon they'll be telling you he is a pimp for the pole dancer and his W-2 doesn't really mean what it says. They won't be able to explain away that internal phone directory he took with him, though.

461 Wrong, his 401k matching wouldn't get him anywhere near that number, and he doesn't make a bonus at that level. Here in northern VA, just about everyone has worked for Booz Allen at one time or another. This isn't secret stuff. The 200k number was obviously BS from the start. Maybe that doesn't matter, but stop making things up to try to make a truthful statement from a lie.

462 And for the record... there WAS already another whistle blower on this... retired NSA guy... but he only got coverage by Russia Today TV...

463 The neocons signing off on this seizure of data are every bit the threat to our Republic that the leftists are.

These fake conservatives run cover for the left at crucial moments like this, providing them intellectual and credibility cover for the power grab.

This data is so incredibly easy to abuse that once it's collected and put in one place, the fact that it will be abused eventually is inevitable. This is not rocket science. Anyone who is in support of gathering this information is a traitor to our Bill of Rights.

But that doesn't matter, because he doesn't make as much money as he said he did!

Right, Gabey boy?

Posted by: Tiglon at June 11, 2013 11:26 AM (wFIKe)

 

You're arguing a straw man. No one here is questioning the potential (or reality) of abuse when it comes to NSA domestic data collection methodologies. Given what we know about the Obama Administration, it is virtually certain that American citizens were/are/will be identified, targeted, and investigated as potential enemies of the state based upon their beliefs and associations. That said, email header info and metadata are not covered by the Bill of Rights. The actual content of those communications are.

 

What many of us are trying to determine is whether or not Snowden is a plain old spy for a foreign power or a concientious idealist engaging in an act of civil disobedience. I'm guessing Snowden is a spy, based upon his known background and public statements, as well as the fact that he is now lounging by the pool in a Hong Kong hotel while he waits for his interview with various Chinese intelligence services. Depending on the approach taken by the Chinese, Snowden will either end up rich or end up dead. Who knows? Kim Philby was awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union medal and ended up with his face on a Soviet postage stamp. His colleague, Guy Burgess eventually drank himself to death on fine Russian vodka, bitter, disillusioned, and alone. I'm hoping Snowden takes the Burgess route.

464 Place I worked a few years ago, I would get a "Confidential and Personal" envelope from HR every year that outlined my "Total Compensation" .... Salary, 401k, Insurance, Vacation and Sick time, (they even double-counted my vacation time, that was already in my salary) Added up to about 40% more than what I actually got in cash.

465 Oh, the name. Richard Jewell.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 11, 2013 11:52 AM (XIxXP)

 

You're saying Snowden is a government-constructed patsy? Really? Funny, I don't recall Jewell, you know, publicly confessing to crimes or running off to a foreign country.

466 Gabe, you're taking a lot of heat on this, some earned, some not, but here's my take. As a former SIGINT type, both military and contracting, I think that much of what you consider 'lacking credibility' about Snowden's story is due to not understanding the greater context. That's nothing against you; there's no way someone without a background in strategic intelligence collection and analysis would have enough information to make an informed decision on the technical and legal aspects of what's being leaked. Being skeptical of this man's story is reasonable. Furthermore, it's admirable. Skepticism is a key trait of a good analyst. But so is knowing the extent of your expertise. The Intelligence Community speaks in a very specific dialect designed to sound vague but define precisely, and that jargon is easy for the uninitiated to misinterpret. What you might find as a contradiction might be words, as Kipling would say, 'twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools'. Even the comments about his 'base salary' ... I mean, for years working at CACI, my take home pay as a contractor was a full six figures off my base pay. Granted, I lived in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time, and the modifiers on my timecard were a thing of beauty, but the point remains; defense contracting (especially in intelligence) is far more lucrative than it looks at first glance. Long story short, the devils of these leaks are hiding in a sea of details, and you can't appreciate how deep that sea is from the first few days of a story breaking. The media and the government, either by intent or incompetence, won't get the story straight for some time. It's good not to rush to judgement for or against Snowden at this point. He's probably a mixed, flawed guy. That's a separate thing entirely from what he's brought to light.

467 You're saying Snowden is a government-constructed patsy? Really? Funny, I don't recall Jewell, you know, publicly confessing to crimes or running off to a foreign country. Posted by: troyriser at June 11, 2013 12:01 PM (vtiE6) I'm saying he dropped the info to keep us from being patsies.

468 464 And for the record... there WAS already another whistle blower on this... retired NSA guy... but he only got coverage by Russia Today TV...
--------------------

A couple of us have pointed out, at least 2 sitting US Senators who get intel briefings have basically confirmed what Snowden's saying, that the Obama Administration has exponentially expanded surveillance of citizens (while turning a blind eye to guys like the Tsarnaevs, losing track of 266 foreign nationals already classified as dangerous, and prohibiting law enforcement in SW states from even asking all the shady characters from places like Yemen crossing the border in the Trans-Pecos why they're immigrating without documentation).

But because Snowden has possibly exaggerated his base salary, are we now supposed to think those 2 US Senators  - and Clapper himself who's said Snowden has harmed nat'l security by revealing this 'open secret' -  are frauds too? Are they all self-important braggarts who are lying about what was 'an open secret'?

The logical contradictions are perplexing to say the least.

469

Posted by: Artemus Khan, Supervillian-billionaire-layabout at June 11, 2013 12:05 PM (27tUc)

 

From the unitiated masses who can't make heads or tails out of all that complicated wilderness of mirrors greater context stuff, thanks to the Intelligence Community for that heads-up regarding the fall of the Soviet Union. That 'slam-dunk' assessment of Iraqi WMD capabilities was invaluable, as well. And let's not forget the more recent examples of the crackerjack work accomplished prior to the Ft. Hood shooting and the Boston Bomber case.

 

You're overpaid, all of you.

470 I'm less concerned with the character of Edward Snowden than I am the details of the massive spying operation he exposed.  He could be all sorts of unsavory things and it still wouldn't make PRISM acceptable to me.

471 I'm saying he dropped the info to keep us from being patsies.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 11, 2013 12:12 PM (XIxXP)

 

Snowden dropped the info because he's a traitorous asshole with delusions of grandeur. Had he been engaged in a legitimate act of civil disobedience, he would've stayed in the United States and made his case in court. Running off to Red China negates that claim.

472 Not $200,000? Many folks were wondering about that. Seems to have been a boast. --------------------------------- Bonuses could have made up the rest.

473 27 He said $200,000 and not $122,000? Well, that's way worse than illegally spying on American citizens and lying to Congress about it. ------------------------------------- Correct. Some are falling into the trap to put the focus on Snowden. So who set the trap?

474 Col. Jessup, Snowden's level at Booz was not bonus eligible. Period. He lied or was misrepresented. Whether that matters or not can be decided, but why do people keep trying to make his falsehood into truth?

475 Hawaii gets a pretty hefty cost of living boost IF a Federal Employee... there is a change that Booz is purposely flinging poop on this guy... just saying...   Snowden's credibility is not what I'm worried about Gabe. 

Let's see how this plays out...

476

good god the GOP establishment is ordering it's minions to attack Snowden, way to go Gabe, your credibility shrinks even more.

 

Let's see, you bring up three facts to announce Snowden's credibility is weakening:

 

1) he was on that job for less than 3 months.

2) the salary for that job was $122K and not $200K

3) that he was fired.....yesterday.

 

Let's start with number 3 - duh,  but guess what, that has nothing to do with his credibility for his actions a few days ago.

number 2, Seems to me that if you held two jobs in his field during the course of the year, you would make far more than $200K, just because his regular salary for a job he received 3 months ago is $122k doesn't mean he isn't getting $200k now.

Just exactly how many of those government employees, bus drivers, policemen, firemen, etc. who have $80K salaries actually get $120-200K+ this year?  I'll give you a hint, way too many of them.  Time-and-a-half, or in the case of the govt. employee - double and quadruple time.

As for number 1, does it matter how long he's had that particular job with that particular company?  Nothing he said is different from that. 

 

Why on earth would you use those three things to come out and question is credibility?  Because those in the GOP establishment and Dem establishment are showing you the way and like with Romneycare, you must follow their lead.

477 Why on earth would you use those three things to come out and question is credibility? Because those in the GOP establishment and Dem establishment are showing you the way and like with Romneycare, you must follow their lead.

Posted by: doug at June 11, 2013 12:43 PM (uJ8q7)

 

Four things (4). You and the others keep forgetting that one-way ticket to Hong Kong, along with his cute little paean to Chinese national character and freedom. I'd say leaving the country and cutting deals with foreign intelligence services somewhat undermines his credibility, wouldn't you?

478 The WP scrubbing of the original article was clearly meant to make the program look more legit (as in more within the law than suggested the first time around), not evidence of the veracity of what the original article claimed. That's my opinion.

479 What "poop" is Booz Allen slinging at him? They corrected the record on his salary and time employed. That's slinging poop??? Good grief. Anyone familiar with the company knew the salary number was bogus. But, obviously, some people are willing to believe and justify anything, because, you know, whatever. So it makes sense to correct that bad info. I should think whoever gave this guy his security clearance would be feeling the heat right now.

480 Whenever your enemies are pissed and seeking retribution, such as the present case- you are credible. Meh. 122,000 with or without over time? Big deal. Maybe he should have furnished his W-2's.

481 #465 What many of us are trying to determine is whether or not Snowden is a plain old spy for a foreign power or a concientious idealist engaging in an act of civil disobedience. Or - my guess, though it's just a guess - an idealistic idiot who stumbled over details of programs he didn't understand and ran squawking to a fellow idiot in the press. And then announced himself and vacated to Hong Kong. A mastermind of espionage he is not. I encounter idiots like that all the time; most of them, fortunately, never get their hands on anything more highly classified than a McDonald's nutritional information card, but that's how many would likely act if they did. Though you can substitute Cuba or Venezuela for Hong Kong as the idiot's destination of choice.

482 $122,000 is probably his base salary. After OT and bonuses ...

483 what cracks me up are people who say "I worked at Booz Allen and people didn't make that salary." Booz Allen is gigantic, how can you claim to know what people make? you have no idea, I assure you. they pay what they want to a given individual, and if they are paying the guy more than the others they let him know to keep it on the downlow. it happens all the time.

484

Shouldn't the focus here be on the NSA, and not Snowden? 

If Snowden is lying, prove it.

If he's not, then who gives a fuck if he's a piece of shit?  Most of the things that Barack Obama says are true - good liars, and pieces of shit, are normally smart enough to know that the trick is to tell the truth *most* of the time.

 

If this program was underway, I want people jailed.  If Snowden is lying, I want him jailed.  One way or the other, there's some serious shit going on here.  Can we focus on getting to the bottom of the accusation, instead of the accuser?

485 Can we focus on getting to the bottom of the accusation, instead of the accuser?

Posted by: RobM1981 at June 11, 2013 01:08 PM (lV1tZ)

 

Try that one out in any civil or criminal court proceeding.

486 The problem is the spying.  Who's being spied on,  by whom, the scope of the spying,  and the irresistible nature of the power that information would offer a government or a tyrant and his willing machinery.

NSA shouldn't have any info about you or me,  unless we deal with foreign citizens or foreign powers and there is some suspicion of wrongdoing.  The revolution that founded this nation was fought against general warrants,  where anytime it likes for any reason at all it can go house to house and ransack as it pleases to double check and "just in case" and that principle extends to our virtual houses and places of business and private communications and associations.

There shouldn't be a database for the FBI or the IRS or DHS to tap into when it wants the low-down on you.    They get to start from scratch,  from public info,  or evidence or specific information that you have committed a crime.  Then they can look for what you haven't burned and what you might do in the future.

487 Whenever your enemies are pissed and seeking retribution, such as the present case- you are credible.

Meh. 122,000 with or without over time? Big deal. Maybe he should have furnished his W-2's.

Posted by: Alinsky was a Piker at June 11, 2013 01:03 PM (jaqi5)

 

Your logic doesn't follow. Were the Rosenbergs credible? John Walker? Aldrich Ames? Robert Hanssen?

488 Someone else already said it but who gives a damn who Snowden is, or why he did what he did, or whether he was right in every particular.  That misses the point entirely.  The government has exceeded its authority in yet another area by collecting information on every call made by every US citizen, FISA courts and the whole power besotted lot of them be damned to hell.

There is not a single institution left in this country that is legitimately operating within its Constitutional bounds or that can be trusted to do anything other than expand its own power at our expense.  I really think we have crossed the Rubicon into banana republic territory and there is no going back. 

Importing millions of more immigrants who think this sort of government is the norm will just seal the deal in perpetuity.  Whatever you can say about the left, they are always relentless in their pursuit of destruction and when it all comes together it really comes together.

489 Hey, the important issue here is verifying the stated value of Edward Snowden's fringe benefits. 

I, for one, won't rest until someone gets to the bottom of this. 

490

what person says they earn 200K but doesn't mean that as their base salary.   Most people don't even know what their total compensation is.  he was lying about his salary.  this was a snowden job.

491 I knew he was a liar cuz he seem way too young to have access to this kind of information.

492 Secretary of state, What cracks me up is people criticizing those who actually have a clue, yet then assert "you have no idea, I assure you". Really? So Booz Allen gives bonuses to people at Snowden's level? Do you even know what that is? Good grief, I thought conspiracy theory crap was for the far left. The guy lied about his salary. Period. Ignore that if it isn't important, but don't try to make a lie into the truth with this "I know how it all REALLY works but you don't" crap. You either know how Booz operates or you don't, and clearly, you don't.

493 $200,000? May be boasting a bit or including bonuses. On the other hand, I know a 21 year-old programmer who just got a job with a Silicon Valley startup. He's making $99,000 fresh out of college.

494 Four things (4). You and the others keep forgetting that one-way ticket to Hong Kong, along with his cute little paean to Chinese national character and freedom. I'd say leaving the country and cutting deals with foreign intelligence services somewhat undermines his credibility, wouldn't you?

Posted by: troyriser at June 11, 2013 12:48 PM (vtiE6)

 

I actually think flying off to Hong Kong wasn't a big deal.  He could have flown off to anywhere.  The important point for him was to make sure he wasn't on U.S. soil when he whistleblew to the press (both for security and for legal exposure - girls used to run to different states to get a legal abortion).  I'm sure legally, he could have done it in Great Britain or elsewhere, but maybe he chose a place where he knew (through his NSA knowledge) that big brother wasn't watching and he could complete his week long giving out of information before a drone silenced him.

 

I think the GOP and Dem establishment are living up the Hong Kong - China link ONLY in an effort to drum up negativity towards him - it's a convenient way to imply he really is a traitor.  Most Americans' knowledge is that Hong Kong is even more free and capitalist than our society, so they have to really thump home the idea that really Hong Kong is now Chinese controlled to try to get us to have a lower opinion of why he chose to fly.

My point being, is that if he chose to release these things over a course of a week and decided to stay in the U.S. to do it, I imagine he knew that he would get caught before he got the stuff released. 

To me, it sounds more like he chose a location that would allow him to finish releasing the stuff before he was caught and the only reason he came forward was because in the aftermath of the release there was some positive reaction to him....otherwise he would have remained silent longer.

Again, that 4th point doesn't do anything towards credibility, only towards his preparedness.

 

 

 

495

@ 494 matt93 - "Secretary of state, What cracks me up is people criticizing those who actually have a clue, yet then assert "you have no idea, I assure you". Really? So Booz Allen gives bonuses to people at Snowden's level? Do you even know what that is? Good grief, I thought conspiracy theory crap was for the far left. The guy lied about his salary. Period. Ignore that if it isn't important, but don't try to make a lie into the truth with this "I know how it all REALLY works but you don't" crap. You either know how Booz operates or you don't, and clearly, you don't. "

 

Let's also keep in mind, matt93, that it doesn't really matter what Snowden's salary was, or even whether he inflated it or not, since that's all just shiny pretty to keep people like you distracted.

As has been mentioned above, at least two US senators and another ex-NSA analyst speaking independently of Snowden have also confirmed what Snowden said (indeed, did so before Snowden said it), and Clapper himself has more or less referred to it as an "open secret," so the chances that Snowden was lying about NSA spying on American communications are extremely remote, all things considered. 

496

@ 496 - "Most Americans' knowledge is that Hong Kong is even more free and capitalist than our society, so they have to really thump home the idea that really Hong Kong is now Chinese controlled to try to get us to have a lower opinion of why he chose to fly."

 

 

Exactly.  Personally, I suspect he went to HK, to the extent that it is Chinese sovereign territory, because he thought it would be a place where, 1) He was unlikely to be extradited since it'll be a lot harder for the USA to put pressure on China than it would be to put pressure on, say, Greece or Chile or somewhere, and 2) he knows the USA is a lot less likely to chance an international incident via a drone strike or otherwise using some sort of force to "disappear" him on Chinese turf.

497 People like me distracted? What distracts me is people trying to deny that he was lying about that. If it is just a distraction, why are so many people trying to come up with ways to make a false statement true? Just say, yeah, so he lied, it doesn't matter. Instead, people contort themselves to try to justify his statement, then accuse me of being distracted. I think it calls his honesty into question, but that doesn't mean we should ignore what he exposed. Just don't make the guy into a hero when he might just be a crapweasel who exposed something important.

498

Gabe Malor is a SCOAMF.

499 Where to begin?

1 - If Snowden is lying, how did he hurt US security? Obama can read people's minds! Did I just hurt US security, by revealing Obama's ability to read minds?

2 - Clapper has basically admitted that they were collecting records on Americans. He claims they weren't "targeting" us. They jsut want to know every last possible thing about us, is all.

3 - I am a contractor, and when I compare job offers, I don't care what is salary, what is bennies, or what is per diem. I look at the potential employer's annual outlay on my behalf. 

4 - In the ricin case in TX, it has been revealed that the post office photographs the front and back of every piece of mail they process (although I suspect that may not include junk mail). So, that particular hypothetical is an actual.

5 - Whose internet records do you think they were getting from Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, etc.  Saudis?

6 - These guys couldn't catch a terrorist if they found his dick up their ass. The Russians told them about the Tsarnaevs, but they were too busy reading our e-mails (we know Google reads our g-mails. They use the contents to target advertising. You think they didn't hand them over to the NSA?) to do anything about it. They found Hasan e-mailing Awlaki, and decided it was just a kind of hobby he had. Workplace rudeness, I think they called it.

  What's with you, Malor? I actually think Snowden may be a saint, but so what if he isn't? The government is not denying his accusations. Why are you?

500

This is what I know, if Snowden was a soldier and his commander told him he had to machine gun down a bunch of innocent women and children, he wouldn't do it.  To me, that counts for something.

However, I'm hearing a lot of people who sound as if they would be much more likely to toe that line and fire away.

 

501 I was wondering which of the co-bloggers would get the task of covering for the establishment.  Good job Gabe!  Back to work comrades!

502 "That said, email header info and metadata are not covered by the Bill of Rights."

Why? It's private and personally identifying information. Are you saying because the 4th doesn't SPECIFICALLY specify metadata, you get to ignore the SPIRIT of the Fourth Amendment?

You stupid neocon statist, have you forgotten the Ninth Amendment?

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Metadata is covered. Sorry. It's too private and revealing not to be.

503 The jackasses claiming 'metadata isn't covered by the 4th' are required to show us where in the Constitution it is enumerated that the Federal Govt has a right to this information.

Remember, the Constitution is a set of ENUMERATED powers. You don't get to have anything the 4th doesn't specifically prohibit.

Let's see you statist fake conservatives put up or shut up. You claim to be Constitutionalists. Let's see you prove it.

504 Jeez, what a trivial thing to challenge his veracity over his salary.  You don't know how he arrived at that figure.  People in these jobs often get some good perks.  It could potentially involve overtime, housing, transportation, meals, medical, bonus, travel vouchers, tax breaks etc.  If he was in Japan prior he probably got ALL of this.  Hawaii, probably less.

I don't doubt the figure at all.  Seriously, I think a lot of people are getting this.

505 I'm just waiting on Gabe to show up and use the Commerce Clause as justification for grabbing this data.

That way we can go full circle and show that the neocons are just as abusive of the Constitution and that they despise the enumerated powers almost as much as the left does.

506 If Snowden was making $122k/yr, BAH charged the USG at least $200k-250k/yr. That's probably where those numbers came from. As far as him passing the poly, of course he passed, he hadn't done anything wrong yet when he took the poly at the beginning of his clearance process. If it was going to turn up, it would only do so (maybe) during his re-poly if he was hiding the unauthorized disclosure at that time. But he confessed immediately after the disclosure so there's no reason for the poly at that point unless more information from him was needed about the disclosure. But they'd need access to him for that...

507 We learned today that there is a difference between math and arithmetic. Who knew?