June 12, 2013
— Ace Before I get into all of this, let me explain why I feel we're being snookered on this, and why it bothers me.
The media and the Institutional Class generally have dismissed every scandal allegation as akin to Birtherism. The Benghazi cover-up was dismissed by the media, and the Institutional Class, as some ginned-up fake conspiracy theory spread by crazy people. Just like the Birth Certificate thing.
This was a hard stance to maintain, given that the Talking Points were clearly a fiction from the get-go and that there was an avalanche of evidence that the attack was known to be a coordinated, planned attack from the start, and no evidence whatsoever that it was a "spontaneous demonstration" at all, but yet the Institutional Class advanced its own political interests anyway in suggesting the whole kerfuffle was a fever-swamp fantasia cooked up by the extreme rightwing.
Fast & Furious, too, of course. To this day no one in the media can tell you how a government gun-tracking program could track guns without actually tracking guns, and yet they continue to even trouble themselves to ask the government how tracking can be had without tracking, but, you know, Birtherism.
The government must have a good reason for all of this. We don't know what that reason is, but you'd have to be some kind of wild-eyed Birther type to think that a cover story that makes no sense at all is worth asking a few questions about.
So what I'm worried about here is that this Snowden doesn't know what he's talking about and has overhyped his disclosures, and that, in the coming days, we'll find out that PRISM is less and less than he originally claimed it was. And then, the Institutional Class, having rubbished NSA-gate as also "akin to Birtherism," will then take the IRS scandal to also be akin to Birtherism, and the EPA's shellacking conservative groups with hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs for FOIA requests while freely providing them to liberal groups will be taken as akin to Birtherism, and suspicions about the James Rosen matter will be akin to Birtherism, and so on.
I am always fearful about seizing upon weak evidence especially when we have so much strong evidence -- because mark my words, if the NSA scandal peters out, this will be the only scandal the Institutional Class will deign to discuss, and will categorize all other scandals as "like the so-called overblown NSA scandal."
I don't know what the NSA is doing, and as the days pass, I'm less sure that I even know what I thought I knew five days ago. it's now being claimed that PRISM isn't even the intelligence gathering program at all, but rather the data management tool -- i.e., the user interface -- used for looking into suspect data.
The administration is pushing back on the definition of what Prism actually is – that it’s not a snooping programme but a data management tool. The call logging accusations are pretty much beyond doubt (and reason enough to scream Big Brother) but the Prism angle is a little less clear. Extremetech points out that it is a programme that has hidden in public sight, that Prism is in fact, “the name of a web data management tool that is so boring that no one had ever bothered to report on its existence before now. It appears that the public Prism tool is simply a way to view and manage collected data, as well as correlate it with the source.” This is not to say that there isn’t a scandal to investigate here: “What is much more important is to pay attention to what data is being collected, and how.” But Prism might not be the smoking gun.None of this debunks outright Snowden’s claims that the NSA is gathering data, that it has extraordinary power or that it has lied to Congress about it. But it does smack of a lack of fact checking on the part of The Guardian and it risks giving credibility to those who think this is a lot of fuss about nothing (and I'm not one of them). As Joshua Foust of Medium.com suggests, the problem probably rests with Snowden. He first approached the Washington Post via a freelancer and demanded that they publish everything without time for fact checking or government comment. The Post hesitated – so Snowden went to The Guardian instead. This forced the Post to speed up publication of its own story. Frost: “Both papers, in their rush, wound up printing misleading stories.” If so, they're in trouble.
Now, of course, a data-management tool implies there is data to manage, so Snowden's story is not completely debunked. The NSA is obviously gathering lots of data. But I'm not sure we know much more about this from Snowden's disclosures than we did before.
We have his say-so on some of this, but lacking actual proof, we have to rely on his word, and that is becoming a perilous proposition:
Snowden’s backstory is not entirely accurate. Booz Allen says that his salary was 40 per cent lower than thought and a real estate agent says that his house in Hawaii was empty for weeks before he vamoosed. Does the fact that he only worked for three months with Booz Allen and the NSA suggest he was planning a hit and run all along – that he took the job with the NSA with the intention of stealing the documents?Answer: The timeline strongly suggests something like that happened. H/t @comradearthur.
NSA leaker Ed Snowden claimed to have broken both of his legs while training for Special Forces....
That is simply not true as the statement from the Special Warfare Center & School below clearly points out.
Much, much more troubling than some resume-fabulations is this: Snowden is now not only blabbing about programs which may be objectionable and legitimate topics of national debate, but about programs which aren't objectionable and are not legitimate topics of national debate.
It's one thing to inform the American people what the the American government is doing.
It's another thing entirely to inform the Chinese people what the American government is doing.
n a new interview with Hong Kong newspaper The South China Morning Post, National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden says the U.S. has been hacking Chinese and Hong Kong computers since 2009. The paper said it viewed documents supporting Snowden's claim, but was unable to verify them.The Guardian's Glenn Greenwald - the journalist who first broke the story of the NSA's vast surveillance system - told CNN "The Lead's" Jake Tapper Monday that there are more stories to come.
Wednesday's revelation demonstrates that Snowden will continue to share information.
Of course the US hacks Chinese systems, and of course we spy on China. But such espionage is clearly proper-- especially because the Chinese penetration of American secrets is so much more advanced and extensive than our own.
While disclosing a debatable, controversial surveillance program into the private files of American citizens may be a useful and permissible leak, disclosing the basic and proper functions of the American intelligence community is simply not. This is what we pay these agents to do.
This is purely gratuitous, vindictive attack on the American intelligence community-- and America itself-- for no better reason than petty spite, or some kind of misguided Hero Complex, or perhaps an intense belief in the mid-seventies-based leftist paranoia of Ron Paul, in which all countries are highly ethical actors, except the US, which is an egregious privacy-violating secretive hegemon which occasionally forces freedom-loving, peacefully-intended countries like the Soviet Union and Iran to take action in retaliation to our own imperialistic maneuverings.
The only difference between Noam Chomsky and Ron Paul on this point is that Noam Chomsky is better and more widely read and doesn't obsess as much about dimes.
Don't believe me? Here's Edward Snowden, Hater of the American Security/Surveillance State, speaking kindly about.... Russia.
“All I can do is rely on my training and hope that world governments will refuse to be bullied by the United States into persecuting people seeking political refuge,” he said.He also hinted, though did not claim explicitly that other governments may ultimately welcome him.
“Asked if he had been offered asylum by the Russian government, he said: ‘My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power,’” the Morning Post reported.
He so hated the secrecy and control of the American Surveillance State he fled to... China, and may soon seek greener pastures in... Russia.
Like Julian Assange, or Ron Paul for that matter, the hatred here is not for totalitarian systems of control generally, but for the American one specifically, and that is worrisome.
And it's worrisome because most of what we think we know about this scandal comes not from documents and verified proofs but from Snowden himself.
Earlier today I read this Ron Fournier piece, "Why I Don't Care About Edward Snowden," and was strongly inclined to agree, believing that the whole "Is Snowden a hero or a villain?" subplot was a bit of baby-talk to interest the low thinkers who cannot think in anything but those terms, in terms of people and personalities rather than ideas and principles, and who prefer such personality-based thinking to occur in the most baby-talk-ish of all possible manners of debate: Is this person completely Good and completely a Hero or is he completely Evil and completely a Villain?
And thus the political debate becomes MySpace: ROXXOR or SUXXOR? Upding or Downding? Let's get #HeroSnowden #trending over #VillainSnowden.
And I agreed, I thought, with his conclusion that such talk was a complete misdirection away from the actual questions at hand: Do we support this program? Do we even know enough about it to make that determination? Isn't the government now hiding from us not only the details of secret projects, but even the most elementary and basic information about the broad parameters of goals of such programs, such that we are denied the ability to actually make any sort of sensible judgment at all?
Is the government not essentially telling us to simply Trust Our Betters, and denying the most important of all principles underlying what was once called America-- the idea that common citizens shall make informed decisions about how their country shall operate?
And while I still mostly agree with that, I have to dispute that a bit, because much of what is claimed about this program is claimed by Edward Snowden, and I am not taking his word for it anymore than I'm taking the perjurious word of James Clapper for it. And, as Clapper's dishonesty and agenda weighs in the balance when we consider his claims, so too should such things weigh in the balance when we consider Snowden's.
The Timeline: Neo-Neocon does some thinking and realizes that Snowden seems to be have been "working with" Glenn Greenwald since just about the day he took the job.
So that would mean he probably took the posting to get the documents, and was not, in case you thought this, subject to a crisis of conscience due to what he saw there. He had the crisis of conscience before the job interview.
But there is a more important implication: This means that Snowden probably did not learn what he found objectionable about US intelligence by his three months of work for it, but rather that he already knew what he found objectionable about US Intelligence and spent his three months of work for it finding evidence to support his already-believed conclusions.
Having an agenda does not make someone a Bad Man or a Villain or SUXXOR.
It does, however, mean one should be careful in sifting through his claims for the truth. Most likely, most of the information he's giving you is stained, splattered, and soaked-through with his pre-existing agenda.
I Hereby Promise to Administer the Most Transparent Blog in American History: And with that, let me put some cards on the table.
I am jealously guarding the primacy of my favorite scandals, the IRS, James Rosen, and Benghazi, plus the perjury. I do not like other scandals sharing the limelight. I do not think they add to my favorite scandals. I think they steal spotlight. I think they crowd the stage.
And I want my Stars front and center.
Here's the thing: The IRS scandal is plainly a partisan illegal political scandal done for corrupt motives.
Unconstitutional ones, too. This gets to the very heart of the American experiment.
The NSA scandal, if it pans out, is an illegal scandal, yes, but unlikely done for partisan or corrupt motives. It would be a case of overreach and constitutional violation, yes, but probably not with partisan or corrupt motives.
And it's the latter that hang someone. Mistakes or differences of opinion do not. If the NSA turns out to be an overreach, but one done without partisan or corrupt motives... well, no one's getting impeached for going too far to protect the American people from a terrorist attack.
George Bush got reelected on that platform, for crying out loud. He practically announced, "I intend to go too far."
That doesn't mean that this isn't worrisome or unconstitutional. It means, at the end of the day, the IRS and Benghazi scandals are threats to this corrupt administration in a way the NSA scandal never will be (or is extremely unlikely to be).
And so yeah, I'm kind of like: "Let's stick on the one where we have them, and not this other one where Obama will say 'gee I'm sorry if I'm more concerned about American lives than conservatives are, but I guess we'll just have to disagree."
You can disagree with the principle behind that line, but you can't argue it's a good defense, politically, and that the LIVs of the American Idiocracy won't think it sounds pretty good to them, now let's get back to watching The Bachelorette.
Posted by: Ace at
01:50 PM
| Comments (545)
Post contains 2363 words, total size 15 kb.
This is my default condition until it is proved incontrovertibly to be incorrect. I'm pretty sure that makes me a true conservative, despite my disinterest in dying on hills.
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 01:53 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: Phil Laîcheaux (formerly known as Emdoc) at June 12, 2013 01:53 PM (4AeTK)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 01:54 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 01:54 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: Joethefatman™ (@joethefatman1) at June 12, 2013 01:54 PM (MnSla)
Yes! we should trust our betters and Joe Biden. If you think your phone has been tapped, fire two shotgun blasts through it.
Posted by: mallfly, nonexpert at June 12, 2013 01:55 PM (bJm7W)
Dude, I can't believe this still works.
Posted by: Mani at June 12, 2013 01:55 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 01:55 PM (8JJ6O)
Posted by: hello, it's me Donna at June 12, 2013 01:55 PM (9+ccr)
Posted by: A Broken Hearted Ewok at June 12, 2013 01:56 PM (iF+ba)
Puppehs--Stat!
Now, when you say puppies, can you be more specific? Are we talking generic puppies, sweater puppies, what?
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 01:57 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 01:57 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: jakeman at June 12, 2013 01:57 PM (96M6e)
Posted by: fluffy at June 12, 2013 01:58 PM (GQpqR)
Again, I can't believe this still works.
Posted by: Elmer Gantry at June 12, 2013 01:58 PM (6TB1Z)
or
The head of NSA resigning and being replaced by a woman lawyer from the White House?
If there is a pool, I want Friday at 8pm.
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 12, 2013 01:58 PM (ES4Da)
Posted by: T. at June 12, 2013 01:58 PM (+GDxM)
Posted by: jd at June 12, 2013 01:58 PM (Ks5+T)
Posted by: S. Weasel at June 12, 2013 01:58 PM (0TfTb)
You're quite sure of that, eh? On what do you base that claim? The Chinese aren't stupid enough to let security breaches land on the pages of their newspapers?
Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at June 12, 2013 01:59 PM (6WVi+)
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at June 12, 2013 01:59 PM (XYSwB)
Posted by: aj.fluehr@gmail.com at June 12, 2013 01:59 PM (ZL7LA)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 01:59 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: A Broken Hearted Ewok at June 12, 2013 01:59 PM (iF+ba)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:00 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:00 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: tony redenzo at June 12, 2013 02:00 PM (OV5j8)
Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at June 12, 2013 02:00 PM (hjgKA)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:02 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:03 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:04 PM (sXRxP)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:05 PM (DPdf7)
Accused my ass, I paid off the bitch and got disbarred.
I'd call that convicted. Posted by: Bill Clinton at June 12, 2013 02:05 PM (wR+pz)
The government spying on me? That I care about.
Posted by: BurtTC at June 12, 2013 02:05 PM (BeSEI)
Ace: two words refute that very lengthy post.
WILLIAM BINNEY.
Whatever the fuck you think about Snowden, give me a break. The data collecting facility IS FUCKING REAL. The data mining hardware they have in a separate room in AT&T's facility in San Francisco IS FUCKING REAL.
This scandal has been out for some time. I peripherally paid attention to it when I didn't want to believe William Binney.
Every fucking email possible is "collected" by the NSA. Believe it. Who gives a shit about Snowden. He is simply confirming shit that much more credible whistleblowers have already disclosed. We think Ace is a target, BOOM, enter in his metadata through PRISM or whatever search algorithms we have and go through our COLLECTION of pretty much all emails everywhere, phone records, medical records, etc., etc., etc.
I don't give a fuck about Snowden and whether he is a narcisstic freak, agent of China or loving China and Russia.
Listen to what William Binney has to say. That's all you need to fucking know on this topic. It's the real deal. And this "defector" is the ultimate after the revelation of the Verizon records court order. In fact, Snowden is the guy who "leaked" that.
YOU HAVE HARD EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE COLLECTING ALL METADATA FROM VERIZON, and they have confirmed this and confirmed they are doing it from other carriers.
Are we falling into battered wife syndrome.
DOJ ADMITS they were walking guns. What gun running scandal?
IRS ADMITS they were targeting conservatives. What bias scandal?
Govt. ADMITS they are "collecting" every fucking piece of metadata from all fucking Verizon customers. Snowden is looking awfully dodgy?
This piece did not make much sense. Some of your criticisms did, but overall I think the thrust, and the headline, is off.
Posted by: Prescient11 at June 12, 2013 02:06 PM (tVTLU)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:06 PM (+98Gb)
The only excuses offered by the Feds is that the leaker doesn't have all the details! Ah-ha! There, see? Don't worry your pretty heads about anything.
The thing that puts me solidly in the 'time for a reckoning,' is the fact that the Feds have gagged a court ruling that ruled in part or whole that one of these programs is a 4th Amd violation.
If a government agency has to go to the point of making a Federal judge's ruling secret to cover up unconstitutional behavior, we are in some seriously bad doo-doo.
For the sake of it just go ahead and stipulate Snowden is a bad person who kicks puppies and eats babies' candy. Doesn't change the stink coming off that pile of assholes in DC.
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 12, 2013 02:06 PM (SX6wc)
We've seen what the Obama machine has done to people who embarrassed Lord Barry. Now we've got a guy who's hacked off Obama and the CIA and the NSA and the FBI.
He'll be painted as slimier than Barney Frank's toilet brush.
Even if he is 50% full of shit he may be part right. At least now some people are asking questions, so good on him there.
Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at June 12, 2013 02:07 PM (6WVi+)
What's more, how is it a "Bombshell"? I think I actually feel better about the Obama administration that it is returning the favor to China. They've been hacking us for years.
Posted by: gastorgrab at June 12, 2013 02:07 PM (FX38i)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Prescient11 at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (tVTLU)
Serious question:
I still don't get if the Snowden is totally lying as the NSA says, why would they want to extradite him and prosecute?
Live Free or Die Hard Conspiracy question?
What if he never said he broke both legs or only worked at B - A for 3 months, but the govt said he said that?
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (ZPrif)
THE ISSUE IS DOMESTIC SPYING BY THE NSA!
If you focus on Snowden the bad guys win.
Posted by: Lucky Pierre at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (5fSr7)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: L, elle at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (0PiQ4)
Even many conservatives might agree with the NSA poking their noses into our business for the purpose of foiling terrorists. Only liberal extremists could accept political terrorism being applied to conservatives in order to further the aims of the Obama regime.
Posted by: Ruthless at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (+rRuN)
Posted by: mallfly, nonexpert
--------------
I actually know a guy that did that, except he used .45 ACP. He really was a perfectly rational man, ex-Army officer. Just got tired of being annoyed by the phone. At a somewhat later date, he also shot and killed two guys that broke into his home. I recall the statement made by the Sheriff : "I can think of a thousand other homes that I would have broken into rather than Harry's."
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 12, 2013 02:08 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:09 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 02:09 PM (wR+pz)
As with all lefties defending the erosion of our rights, Friedman is VERY concerned that we respect rights.
Right ...
http://tinyurl.com/mozdwpq
Posted by: kbdabear at June 12, 2013 02:09 PM (/9IC1)
Lucky Pierre:
You hit the fucking nail on the head. Fuck Snowden.
CONCENTRATE ON WHAT IS ALREADY ADMITTED!!!!!!!!!!
That in itself is grounds for removal of this fucking government by impeachment.
Posted by: Prescient11 at June 12, 2013 02:09 PM (tVTLU)
Posted by: Samuel Adams at June 12, 2013 02:10 PM (cK0tU)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:10 PM (sXRxP)
They lose all control, and they drop their coordinated talking points.
Posted by: gastorgrab at June 12, 2013 02:10 PM (FX38i)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:10 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Queen of Rednecks at June 12, 2013 02:10 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:10 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:11 PM (ZPrif)
At this stage it's increasingly clear he's a traitor.
And the evidence is mounting he's been working with the Chicoms -- whether wittingly or not. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 06:08 PM
And that makes him different from multinational corporations and the Democratic Party how?
Posted by: kbdabear at June 12, 2013 02:11 PM (/9IC1)
So he DID join the service and he DID break both legs in training? And he DID work for an NSA contractor in Hawaii?
Posted by: Lucky Pierre at June 12, 2013 02:12 PM (5fSr7)
Posted by: backhoe at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (ULH4o)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (GEICT)
Let me tell you what I think their story is. Now, they could be lying. They very well could be lying. But you tell me if you think this is a four-alarm fire, if it's true.
They say -- if I have this right -- yes, we store all this data and metadata. The idea is that if, say, four years from now there's a terrorist attack, and we want to trace that terrorists calls and records back four years, we need to have that record preserved.
They say -- and they may be lying, but this is what I THINK they're saying -- we are preserving the record but we do not *check* the record without some kind of decent reason. (Although I'd bet you it's not probable-cause-level reason.)
They say -- again, I think -- this stuff is being preserved in case it should become necessary to comb through old records and stuff.
Now I don't know the truth of any of this. I keep saying "I don't know," and it's true.
I think it's okay to say "I don't know" things sometimes, especially when one actually doesn't know.
I'm not saying shut the investigation down-- I certainly think there's enough here to warrant an investigation and some real answers.
But I'm not ready to throw myself on to the fire on Edward Snowden's say so.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (LCRYB)
Cause, honestly, I'm not quite sure what to think since I know I don't have enough information to know what I need to know and don't know to make a judgement on whether or not he's a patriot or a traitor.
But, in the end, does he really matter?
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (wR+pz)
Yikes!
Someday I'll dive in and look for the virgin and the volcano.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (eHIJJ)
Something's going down. Beck met with DC senators last night and is with them again tonight. He says the next 24-36 hours will be critical if some "heroes" will act.
Levin is on and is serious as a heart attack. He said national security is at stake. He invited Paul Ryan on the program and was told he's not available. No alternative times, nothing. "The 1,000-page amnesty bill has loads of US $$ being lobbied away by foreigners who are laughing at us."
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (qkZxk)
Maybe Snowden is a snow-job to distract us from legit Binney. IOW, if Snowden's a fake, the public might think Binney's a fake, too.
Also, Cloward-Piven. Saturate the public/Congress with so many scandals that their heads spin and no one scandal actually hurts anyone in the admin.
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (KL49F)
He was on Hannity this afternoon. I had to turn it off the instant I recognized his voice because I know every word out of his mouth is a lie. He is the GOP Obama now.
And yes, he's scared about his political future and doesn't know what to do next. What a dimwit.
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 02:13 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:14 PM (sXRxP)
Wow, just like Gabe did, Ace is trying to diminish the credibility of Snowden with some ridiculous points - that is trying to make more out of a point than it is specifically to decredit Snowden.
No time to go one by one since the salary thing has been pointed out, but the newest one, that Prism maybe the name of a data gathering tool rather than the covert name of the whole program to collect the data in the first place!?!
Just shocking, Ace. If you read Google's non-denial denial it was very plain to see. The legal head of that company admitted that they have never heard of the data collecting program named Prism. Anyone with half a brain would have immediately read between the lines and noted that Google, then, must have heard of the data collecting program by some other name.
If you read and hear all accounts of Prism, it very well could be the name of a computer program, like Microsoft word, but only for analyzing data. The total govt. covert program's name can be something completely different....something that the head of Google's legal dept. has heard of.
Posted by: doug at June 12, 2013 02:14 PM (uJ8q7)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:14 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Queen of Rednecks at June 12, 2013 02:14 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:15 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:16 PM (GEICT)
the patriot act, which I, for one, blessed, specified a lower standard of cause than probable cause in terrorist investigations.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:16 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:16 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:16 PM (+98Gb)
Apparently, according to the radio this morning, (I forget exactly who, but a big pundit) they also have to get a FISA judge's okay before they can start looking at individual records.
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 02:16 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:17 PM (qkZxk)
The Ironic part is that if PRISM is what it is said to be, no whistleblower ever can be said to have credibility. Anybody can be destroyed.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:17 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at June 12, 2013 02:17 PM (PMGbu)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: Barry Sotero at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (jtTKf)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:18 PM (+98Gb)
I think what I'm trying to say is that while I allow the possibility that this could be every bit as bad as you think it is, I do not think we currently have the evidence to say that.
I don't know if this is something that I'd say "Eh, I figured they were doing that" or "Holy Shit I had no idea they'd dare to do that."
One can be concerned about the latter possiblity without being convinced we know enough to say that is the state of things.
I'm generally worried when we start getting out on limbs ahead of the evidence because that's when they start sawing the limb from the tree.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:19 PM (LCRYB)
WTF is he a plumber?
Union scale baby.
Posted by: Samuel Adams at June 12, 2013 02:19 PM (cK0tU)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 12, 2013 02:19 PM (SzAZ7)
So it's supposed to help us catch terrorists after the fact?
Like it did in Boston? Your administration seems more concerned with keeping us rubes from going medieval on Muslims after terrorist attacks than it does catching the terrorists. Twitter caught the terrorists.
Posted by: BurtTC at June 12, 2013 02:19 PM (BeSEI)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:19 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:19 PM (+98Gb)
I'm somewhat disinclined to believe what I'm told about PRISM. In fact, I doubt anything that comes out of Washington and relayed by their willing lapdogs in the MFM.
IMO, PRISM is merely a software tool. It's relevancy is made important by the larger issue of innocent Americans being spied on. The only reason this is being done is that this fucking guy's administration is so wedded to the concept of multiculturalism that it absolutely will not use the most basic tool at its disposal: profiling of our enemies.
These idiots get their rocks off groping grandmas and little kids in airports. Their excuse is, "We can't profile, that's racist." Ask yourself if the cops look for a small, Asian female when a witness tells them that it was a 6ft white guy with tattoos. This is the kind of outright idiocy we're forced to endure. It's such a radical departure from common sense that it makes me seriously question the stability of those who propose it.
This goes to the larger issue of our seeming refusal to win wars. Patton had it right when he said, "You don't win wars by dying for your country. You win wars by making the other poor sonofabitch die for his." Had we real men in charge, we'd be more brutal than our enemies and we could send some messages to them, the primary one being, "No." But the spineless fucks we have in charge now have to hang on to their power, which means prolonging any conflict under the guise of "winning hearts and minds." We have to be a kinder, gentler nation, and let our enemies win in order to be "fair."
What a crock of bullshit. We're losing this war. Look at the way we live now on account of it. We're watched, instead of the real enemies. We're stopped and frisked instead of our real enemies. We're profiled (especially if you're a Tea Partier), not the openly hostile groups who are given special treatment by our own government to hasten the destruction of our way of life and our laws.
Do you doubt whose side our government is on? Here's a hint: it ain't ours.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 12, 2013 02:20 PM (0HooB)
Ace, as for the broken legs, thing, your sources clearly point out that Snowden's credibility should be held higher because it was all completely TRUE.
The original story says he broke his legs while training to join the special forces. the army says he broke his legs prior to being in the special forces.
How the hell do you take all that to mean that Snowden's credibility should be questioned?
If you were trying to improve your physical ability so that you could join the special forces and broke your legs while doing so, don't you think you could honestly say you broke your legs while training to join the special forces.
Ace, this is all very week, I need to ask the simple question: Does the NSA have something on you like they likely had on Petraeus and some others? Are you toeing the line, now, because of some sort of pressure? Just blink once if true.
Posted by: doug at June 12, 2013 02:20 PM (uJ8q7)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:20 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: zsasz at June 12, 2013 02:21 PM (MMC8r)
Or the usual lousy SyFy weekend movie...
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent
It's no Megashark vs Crocosaurus, I can tell you that.
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 02:21 PM (6TB1Z)
Paul Ryan. From hero to douchebag sell out in 4 short years.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 06:18 PM (+98Gb)
Huh. These GOP dudes suddenly flipping like a flap-jack in hot butter. What has this NSA deal got on THEM?
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Queen of Rednecks at June 12, 2013 02:21 PM (baL2B)
Sorry, but the FISA court provides an insufficient check on Federal powers. Is it the best that can be done? Perhaps in the hands of honest people; alas, there's your problem. Well, the first of several problems.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 12, 2013 02:21 PM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (ZPrif)
That almost sounds like Seven Days In May.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (OgQih)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (8JJ6O)
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: Dr Spank at June 12, 2013 02:22 PM (qRasw)
And frankly, I don't see how we're protecting American lives by having this sort of system in place. That's what I don't get. Where are we wrong to pursue this line of questioning regarding how the Obama administration is invading the privacy of American lives? What possible value in there in that?
Posted by: BurtTC at June 12, 2013 02:23 PM (BeSEI)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:23 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: pep
Here's where it gets worse: the standards in practice under BOOOOSH allowed for post-facto FISA review.
"Oh, we shouldn't have looked at their records. Gee, ok. Thanks."
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 12, 2013 02:23 PM (SX6wc)
Posted by: Lauren at June 12, 2013 02:23 PM (wsGWu)
Ace,
Before answering your question/hypo, we should acknowledge that the "bombshell disclosures" of Snowden are correct, confirmed and admitted. It's not IF they are doing this. They ARE doing this. Mr. Binney is impeccable in my view and he has seen the equipment doing its "collection" work.
Yes, you are correct on your analysis in that post re 83. That is why people I respect and admire support the program, like John Bolton and Andrew McCarthy. They have good motives.
And if terrorists attack it would be useful to have a collection of everyone in the United States' electronic information to try to find all the "bad guys". I grant that point.
But it's weighing the scales. The FISA court gives no disclosures, NONE. I think they have turned down maybe 1 or 2 requests for a warrant in its entire history, among tens of thousands of requests. Everything is done in secret.
If you listen to an interview from Mr. Binney, the NSA procedure can and will be as follows. If they suspect you of something bad, they will run your metadata on their "collection" and ENCRYPT everything else. Then they can use your private papers/emails/communications to serve as the FOUNDATION for probable cause to go after you and violate all your content.
And this is scary enough assuming they are using PROPER motives. These are the tools to turnkey tyranny. Of that Snowden is exactly correct.
It's just like GATTACA man. They can take your fucking DNA for just being arrested, not even being charged?
The alarm bells had better be ringing for the country when Justice Scalia (law and order Scalia/throw away the key) starts reading dissents from the bench against this DNA invasion of privacy.
Something is seriously wrong here. Foreign communications are fair game. Domestic communications among US citizens are OFF FUCKING LIMITS. Or at least they should be.
Think of it like this. We'll collect your personal diary and not read it. Unless we think you might be a bad guy. Then we'll ask a secret court in secret proceedings if it's ok to read it, and we'll use our collection of shit from the past to justify it. Or, fuck it, we'll just read your diary because we have it so fuck you.
Small benefits. Huge potential for total fucking control and tyranny. It's not worth it, number one. And number two it is completely unconstitutional.
Posted by: Prescient11 at June 12, 2013 02:23 PM (tVTLU)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: L, elle at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (0PiQ4)
Posted by: Trevor (@TJexcite) at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (CdeLs)
Posted by: Rub A Dub Dub at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (E55AK)
Posted by: wooga at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (VborK)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: zsasz at June 12, 2013 02:24 PM (MMC8r)
Liberals and libertarians and Truthers and Alex Jones fans, sure. But there were and are teeming hordes of conservatives still rushing after the Snowden/Greenwald tales like lemmings. Disgusting.
McLuhan's "The media IS the message" is just another way of saying, "Consider the source, Zippy."
Posted by: Adjoran at June 12, 2013 02:25 PM (473jB)
Ace, this is all very week, I need to ask the simple question: Does the NSA have something on you like they likely had on Petraeus and some others? Are you toeing the line, now, because of some sort of pressure? Just blink once if true.
no.
but before you go down this path of "They got to ace," notice there's a bunch of people agreeing with me. That doesn't make them right, of course-- a man with the truth is a majority of one.
But I would suggest that it means that your own case -- that this is so obviously egregious that any fool can see it, and anyone who doesn't see it is therefore a fool or a knave -- isn't quite as self-evident as you believe.
My reasons for writing this are transparent and laid out in the post itself. My intuition is no more reliable than your own, but my hunch is that this is all a bit overblown, and will be used against us later to suggest the IRS scandal is "just some cooked-up horseshit from the gang who brought you the NSA phony scandal."
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:25 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Former Mass. Resident at June 12, 2013 02:25 PM (uRbX6)
So, Ace. Where do we go for the truth about a classified operation. Dear Leader's regime? Congress? The MFM? OFA?
If we can't believe anyone, then it's over. Now that I think about it, this has been the regime's and the MFM's plan all along.
For me, I can't just dismiss what Snowden has told us. There's probably a lot of truth mixed with the insuing jumble.
Posted by: Soona at June 12, 2013 02:26 PM (MhjjL)
Had another attractive job not come up, I'd have continued through with the CIA process, but at the time it took forever and they got back to me like 6 months after I'd started elsewhere.
You get put on the box. Your past going all the way back to your grandparents, your associates, where you've lived since birth, etc it all gets a thorough rectal exam...or at least it did as of the late 1980's when I was going through it.
I'm wondering how a flake'ish dude with Snowden's thin resume and credentials ever got past step-1? Has shit gotten that much looser since the cold-war was in full swing?
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 02:26 PM (/gHaE)
Will have to wait until tomorrow for the rewind. Does Glenn Beck hold any sway at all with any establishment GOP?
None.
This morning he said he was under the impression that those who met with him last night "got it," but really, only 6 or 7 did. When the Repubs spoke, he said they'd cut their eyes to the left and right and look behind them to be sure of who was behind them. They muttered to Beck to "watch what you say, some people are going to track it right out of here."
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:26 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: L, elle at June 12, 2013 02:26 PM (0PiQ4)
Flatbush Joe:
They don't need to hack google. Google is feeding them the data. And OFA. Count on it.
Posted by: Prescient11 at June 12, 2013 02:26 PM (tVTLU)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:26 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Dr Spank at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (qRasw)
Yeah, but those NSA guys are angels! They have training!
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (SX6wc)
Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.) said lawmakers learned “significantly more” about the spy programs at the National Security Agency (NSA) during a briefing on Tuesday with counterterrorism officials.
“What we learned in there,” Sanchez said, “is significantly more than what is out in the media today.”
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (g5YAm)
I don't know, when congressfolks who were kept in the dark come out of their briefing looking blanch and start talking to reporters like they had no idea of the capabilities of the NSA, I tend to think that what we've heard is really cupcakes and lollipops compared to the meat and potatoes we don't know about.
The laughable idea that the government has the insurance companies information is likely just part of it......it's possible that they have every phone call recorded and digitalized, heck I wouldn't put it past them to have catalogued everybody's movement from anything that could be a gps device in their cars to their cellphones to their laptops.
It's probably fairly easy to collect that information and store it, and my guess is that there is enough genius out there to actually make a program to make use of it.
Yeah, just conjecture, but what else could make those congresspeople look like they've seen a ghost?
Posted by: doug at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (uJ8q7)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (ZPrif)
The *new* thing from Snowden was that they may be collecting all that data on everyone all the time and then *filling in my own blanks* that it would only take some low level tech to flip the switch from keying on words like jihad, infidel, etc to tea party, patriot, SCOAMF, JEF, Oblahter etc. for them to be aggregating and studying data on the TFGs political opponents rather than potential terrorists.
Posted by: palerider at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (dkExz)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:27 PM (sXRxP)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:28 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: zsasz at June 12, 2013 02:28 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 02:28 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:28 PM (ZPrif)
why did Federal Judge say NSA overreached and were causing something Illega re the 4th amendment .
I'm not sure what i am seeing, sure we don't want to know this stuff. I love my country and don't want to think it would hurt me.
Yet we saw IRS, SPA as has been noted.
are we doing a palinization or Joe The Plumbering. Or whatever the messenger ?
Do we have accurate information other than what He has said?
yes the china thing is wierd/Russia weirder. And i understand he should have gone through the correct channels here. Still who to trust ?
Holder?
the American Media?
an IG?
a congressman?
who?
i still need time to flesh this out in my mind.
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 02:29 PM (nqBYe)
Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.) said lawmakers learned “significantly
more” about the spy programs at the National Security Agency (NSA)
during a briefing on Tuesday with counterterrorism officials.
Yeah, but you know Loretta. The decent ones who attended would not speak to Beck about it but were shaken and livid at once.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:29 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:30 PM (+98Gb)
How about this is a distraction? And it gives Obama the perfect excuse to close this program down, which is probably not as outlaw as this butthole is claiming it to be. But Obama would want to stop anything that helps the US so long as he can avoid any responsibility for the consequences, which he now can.
Combine that with a bit of Ace's notion that if just one of these scandals can be defeated they ALL can disappear from the Party Media's front pages and things look a little suspicious. One of these things isn't like the others. All of the other scandals broke in the new media and the Party hacks had to be dragged kicking and screaming to cover them. This one broke in the Guardian/WaPo. They found themselves a Ronulan, loaded him up with what they wanted him to talk about and pointed him exactly where he was supposed to go. Prism broke hours after the Verizon story was blowing up, merged with it and if it turns out to be crap at least takes it out of play; they will certainly try to close out the IRS scandal along with it.
Posted by: John Morris at June 12, 2013 02:30 PM (sCRhB)
WTF is he a plumber?
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 12, 2013 06:18 PM (wR+pz)
Isn't that what they called the Watergate guys?
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 02:30 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:30 PM (ZPrif)
You too? My gout was really acting up, so now I'm a toll booth attendant.
Posted by: pep at June 12, 2013 02:31 PM (6TB1Z)
Rather, take the opportunnity to sharply circumscribe those lines they are forbidden to cross.
Demand to know if any such illegal line has been crossed, certainly, but go forward and underline that line which is already in the constitution and mark it very sharp and very explicit.
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 02:31 PM (LYwCh)
But I find curious the timing of the story. Why now? Why not wait a bit and gather for intel and better position himself for asylum or whatever.?
Who benefits from this release? In a way, Obama does. It helps him defray scandals; rankles the left and the right against the part of government that the progressives use, but love to rail against. It may very well be an Alinksky-esk tactic to throw everyone off balance as the government of the SCOAMF rolls on and sows seeds of mistrust and division..
Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2013 02:31 PM (/jHWN)
"They also have to get a FISA judge's okay before they can start looking at individual records"
Guess who appointed the FISA judges. The chief justice of the SCOTUS. Just sayin.'
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:31 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 06:28 PM (ZPrif)
But, as I'm understanding it, it's not a regular court. It's some kind of special super sekret court.
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 02:32 PM (/b8+5)
Here's the thing: The IRS scandal is plainly a partisan illegal political scandal done for *CORRUPT MOTIVES.*
The NSA scandal, if it pans out, is an illegal scandal, yes, but unlikely done for partisan or corrupt motives. It would be a case of overreach and constitutional violation, yes, but not with partisan or corrupt motives.
And it's the latter that hang someone. Mistakes or differences of opinion do not. If the NSA turns out to be an overreach, but one done without partisan or corrupt motives... well, no one's getting impeached for GOING TOO FAR TO PROTECT AMERICAN LIVES AGAINST TERRORIST ATTACK. George Bush got reelected on that platform.
That doesn't mean that this isn't worrisome or unconstitutional. It means, at the end of the day, the IRS and Benghazi scandals are threats to this corrupt administration in a way the NSA scandal never will be (or is *extremely* unlikely to be).
And so yeah, I'm kind of like: "Let's stick on the one where we have them, and not this other one where Obama will say 'gee I'm sorry if I'm more concerned about American lives than conservatives are, but I guess we'll just have to disagree."
You can disagree with the principle behind that line, but you can't argue it's a good defense, politically.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:32 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: spypeach at June 12, 2013 02:32 PM (0n1+D)
176 160
I was gonna by Nobel Prize physicist but I twisted my ankle during my
advanced physics class. .... and became a low-level IT
dweeb instead.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe
You too? My gout was really acting up, so now I'm a toll booth attendant.
Which one of you is dating Morgan Fairchild?
"Yeah, that's the ticket."
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:32 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 02:33 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:33 PM (DPdf7)
AP and Fox.
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 02:33 PM (nqBYe)
So does anybody believe that this administration wouldn't love to have a program as described by Snowden?
If your answer is yes, then there is nothing further to talk about. If your answer is no, then the next question is "Is it possible?".
It wasn't possible in 1932 or 1943 or 1948 so the Nazis and the Commies just made everybody spy on each other. When "1984" was written, he knew then that evil men would try such things.
I totally believe if they don't have this capability now, they will keep working toward it. And that is more important than Snowden.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:34 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: M. Rubio at June 12, 2013 02:34 PM (VrVBw)
Posted by: Alittleenglish at June 12, 2013 02:35 PM (6OMjL)
Posted by: Lauren at June 12, 2013 02:35 PM (wsGWu)
Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2013 02:35 PM (/jHWN)
Hahahahaa don't count on it.
I'm pinning my last shred of hope on Ted Cruz and Mike Lee. They were at the meeting and said they hoped to at least salvage the Constitution -- 'cause everything else is lost.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:35 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: John Morris
Exculpatory info doesn't require time. The Congressturkeys have acknowledged the existence of the programs. No one is denying their existence.
The only thing being disputed now is the amount of data collected and whether or not people in the Federal government can access it at-will.
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 12, 2013 02:36 PM (SX6wc)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:36 PM (+98Gb)
AP , and Rosen?
wouldn't they use the same type of behavior?
or would all those orders come from Holder etc?
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 02:36 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 02:36 PM (YjDyJ)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 02:36 PM (7mQyC)
Rand pissed on my leg today when he said he wanted to find a way for current illegals to stay.. once the border is shut. I call BS.
He also voted for cloture.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:37 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: jc at June 12, 2013 02:37 PM (i8c5b)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:38 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:38 PM (+98Gb)
No, what he said was that he thinks the House will pass a series of bills dealing with immigration and that earned legalization would be one of the items addressed. In other words, he was stating his opinion.
His opinion is worth jack. He's not on the right side.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:39 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:39 PM (sXRxP)
NSA has no business to collect or trawl private data of the domestic population, even if it were charged with domestic law enforcement, which it is not, that is the rough equivalent of a general warrant and absolutely right out, of the table, no you can't have it.
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 02:39 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:39 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Prescient11 at June 12, 2013 06:06 PM (tVTLU)
Yes.
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at June 12, 2013 02:39 PM (AWmfW)
Exculpatory info doesn't require time. The Congressturkeys have acknowledged the existence of the programs. No one is denying their existence.
The only thing being disputed now is the amount of data collected and whether or not people in the Federal government can access it at-will.
If the data has been collected (and this appears to be true), what makes you doubt that the power-hungry in TFG's administration won't access it.
Look at what they did to the Tea Partiers. An election was stolen.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 12, 2013 02:39 PM (0HooB)
Posted by: tubal at June 12, 2013 02:40 PM (BoE3Z)
I would believe the purposeful release of these scandals to stop the protestations against amnesty. All of those bastards in DC want it to increase big govt, but don't want kicked out for doing it.
I can't believe I fell for Ryan and Rubio being the good guys. Ughhh.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:40 PM (g5YAm)
We need to concentrate on the fascist state that now confronts us. We are a persecuted minority in this once great nation. So what now? Thats the question. I think we need massive anti-tyranny rallies and see how they are handled.
We cannot get bogged down into a month long chin-wag over whether Snowdens a douche or not. We all know he's got that douchey thing about him. It doesn't change what we know about the IRS, SS, NSA, etc
Heil Obama!
Posted by: Heil Obama at June 12, 2013 02:40 PM (QTvb7)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 02:41 PM (LYwCh)
was it the NSA?
fgs, i cannot keep track
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 02:41 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: backhoe at June 12, 2013 02:41 PM (ULH4o)
Bachmann's telling Levin there's zero heat on Congress to stop amnesty, the opposite of 2007. Melt the phone lines. It's the No. 1 goal of Obama and the Repub leadership and they want it done by Aug. 1.
Congressional Switchboard: 202-224-3121
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:41 PM (qkZxk)
A equally likely scenario is Snowden is a total government plant and they figured confessing to a misdemeanor would keep everyone from looking for an ongoing felony; at the same time feeding the PRC and Russians some phat misinformation.
These days an electronic Potemkin village with honey traps cost nothing to setup. Its not like the cold war when you had to build actual fake shit so some sat could see it.
Its not like people didn't already suspect somewhere in the back of their minds that the intel agencies were snooping everything that was snoopable.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 02:41 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:42 PM (ZPrif)
You may want to throw this into the mix Ace:
http://tinyurl.com/kyp6cr5
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 05:59 PM (g5YAm
Looks like another red herring.
Posted by: olddog in mo at June 12, 2013 02:42 PM (2n0fy)
>>>Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 06:39 PM (ZPrif)<<<<<
You sound like an IT guy that has the knowledge of what they can and cannot do, so I will defer to you.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:42 PM (g5YAm)
There are two schools of thought coming out of the folks that follow Beck. First there is the scared crapless group who think "the world is about to end". Second there is the "Beck over promises and under delivers every single time so I'm not getting upset until he delivers for once" group.
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 02:42 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:43 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:43 PM (sXRxP)
Booz Allen wins the contract. One of two things could happen. First, the SAIC employees working in the client office lose their "jobs" and they go back to an SAIC office until they find a new contract to work on. On Friday afternoon SAIC employees leave the client site office, and on monday morning Booz Allen employees come to work there. The second possibility is that the SAIC employees want to continue working at the client site, which is more their "job" than doing something else at SAIC. Booz Allen wants a smooth transition, so they want expertise. They will try to hire away as many of the SAIC employees with experience with that client, to continue doing the same exact thing, but drawing a paycheck from Booz instead.
If Booz recently won the contract with the NSA in Hawaii, it is entirely possible his previous employer had been working the contract before that and he got hired away. The news reports I've read say he's been working for Booz for 3 months, not that he's been working for the NSA for 3 months.
Posted by: Dan at June 12, 2013 02:43 PM (eCr2f)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:43 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: no good deed at June 12, 2013 02:44 PM (mjR67)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:44 PM (+98Gb)
The scandals could be all one in the same, Ace. Where would you rate the NSA scandal if after all is said and done, we find out that Obama's supporters used the NSA data to initially finger Rosen, the NSA data to get to Petraeus, the NSA data to figure out which conservatives and tea party groups for the IRS to lean on, the NSA data (from recording internet stuff), to basically go after political opponents?
At this moment in time, the NSA collections could be central to the IRS stuff, Benghazi, Immigration, James Rosen....
Posted by: doug at June 12, 2013 02:44 PM (uJ8q7)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:44 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at June 12, 2013 02:44 PM (KL49F)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (+98Gb)
Congressional Switchboard: 202-224-3121
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 06:41 PM (qkZxk)
People assume that their cards, letters and emails and phone calls will go unheeded like with obamacare. Have you noticed the country is profoundly depressed, they feel they have no power.
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: nerdygirl at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (s5E0C)
Posted by: Bronco Bama at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (hHgxI)
Posted by: L, elle at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (0PiQ4)
We are truly Sandra Fluke'd here. A lose-lose situation and there is no side of the argument left for us. Even Ted Cruz is saying we need immigration reform. It is beyond the horizon for anyone to say... close the Mexican border, prosecute illegals and deport, end all federal aid to these leaches and PUNISH freaking Mexico for working with the democrats to encourage their downtrodden peasant-class to flee up here.
So, we're Sandra Fluke'd. I'd like a cigarette at least..
Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (sXRxP)
Something really weird is going on in Washington, like a bad Steven King movie.
tin foil hat off
Posted by: spypeach at June 12, 2013 06:32 PM (0n1+D)
-------------------------------------------------
*takes tinfoil hat from spypeach and puts it on* I agree. The shift we're seeing is too sudden to just ignore. *takes off tinfoil hat and gives it back to spypeach*
Posted by: Soona at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (MhjjL)
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 06:25 PM (LCRYB)
Well, it does fit the "overhyped" accusations they were pushing weeks before on IRS and Benghazi. So there is that.
Posted by: assault flounder at June 12, 2013 02:45 PM (Kkt/i)
Refute amnesty talking points with the following: http://bit.ly/14XRelm/
Call. Even if your critter is a progtard, they still log the calls. Then call others.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:46 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: angel with a sword at June 12, 2013 02:46 PM (sYNwJ)
Posted by: Buzzion at June 12, 2013 02:47 PM (xspQE)
Posted by: sybilll at June 12, 2013 02:47 PM (OvTo1)
Posted by: joeindc44 didn't write this either at June 12, 2013 02:47 PM (QxSug)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:47 PM (+98Gb)
doug I could spin out theories and speculations too, but where does that get us?
Yes, doug, I myself already floated the What If They Got to Chief Justice Roberts on ObamaCare speculation. And I don't mind myself for doing that. But I realize this is a pure speculation-- I spun it out of my brain. There is no evidence for it.
Could it be true? yes.
Is it true? NO IDEA!
I know we have no evidence.
Let's not treat Things That Would Be Helpful Were They True to be synonymous with Things That Are True.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:48 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 02:48 PM (8JJ6O)
Posted by: doug at June 12, 2013 06:44 PM (uJ8q7)
There many, many, many things that could be. But let's stick with the things we know we have on'em - these are the most damning and there's actual proof.
Posted by: Mætenloch at June 12, 2013 02:48 PM (pAlYe)
Posted by: Bronco Bama at June 12, 2013 02:48 PM (hHgxI)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at June 12, 2013 02:48 PM (qyfb5)
Posted by: zsasz at June 12, 2013 02:49 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:49 PM (LCRYB)
Oh, cause this sure seemed set in stone:
The PRISM as magic hack-everything tech is not true. It's not real.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:49 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:49 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Turkey O Tooley at June 12, 2013 02:49 PM (OqYis)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:49 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:50 PM (+98Gb)
Who are you going to find that out from, the same people that are already proven liars?
Posted by: slatz at June 12, 2013 02:50 PM (PIOWA)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:50 PM (DPdf7)
the bureaucracy was indeed provably weaponized at the IRS and State and that is why I strongly prefer to keep those in focus, and deal with this NSA business as a matter of policy to be discussed and, if needed, changed, rather than as a known element of the actual scandals.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:50 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 02:51 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:51 PM (+98Gb)
The NSA scandal, if it pans out, is an illegal scandal, yes, but unlikely done for partisan or corrupt motives. It would be a case of overreach and constitutional violation, yes, but probably not with partisan or corrupt motives.
Are you crazy? You don't think they're using this data for partisan or corrupt motives.
Naive.
Posted by: Gman at June 12, 2013 02:51 PM (UkbKS)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:51 PM (sXRxP)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 02:51 PM (8JJ6O)
Posted by: Kirk at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (GBnWt)
Anyhow, the thing that worries me about the right's handling of the IRS scandal is the focus on Obama. Because, the thing is, it doesn't end when Obama leaves office. It doesn't end with the election of Republicans. It will inevitably happen, over and over, until we reduce the size and power of the federal government. This is a Road to Serfdom issue, not an Obama is a jerk issue.
Posted by: sandy burger at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (rm2L3)
Posted by: TB at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (FZAiO)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: katya, the designated driver at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (DoZD+)
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 06:49 PM (LCRYB)
Jesus, dude, smug much?
Posted by: tubal at June 12, 2013 02:52 PM (BoE3Z)
Funny or Die: Everyone Talk Like a Terrorist and soon NSA eavesdropping will become pointless: http://bit.ly/12nBFrk
Speaking of, it's close to 7. Get ready.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 02:53 PM (qkZxk)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:53 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 02:53 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 02:53 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 02:54 PM (YjDyJ)
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at June 12, 2013 06:44 PM (KL49F)
Yes. But trust them they're not doing it..
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at June 12, 2013 02:54 PM (AWmfW)
That apparently is equivalent to "happily driving the trains to Auschwitz because 'the law' ".
Yeah, because you *weren't* implying that this NSA bullshit was no big deal, and it was worse that snowden leaked about it, than that it was being done.
Nah, that couldn't be it at all.
Posted by: Gman at June 12, 2013 02:54 PM (UkbKS)
I could speculate. I could say yes, I think, push comes to shove, they probably would, or probably have.
I think these things. I cannot prove them, and in fact I'm pretty sure I could never prove them, because if there's one thing I'm pretty sure the NSA is good at, it's at deleting files.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:54 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2013 02:54 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:54 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Lauren at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (wsGWu)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Barney F. at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (m5Tr1)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 06:53 PM (LYwCh)
Yes, yes, yes!
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (AWmfW)
...particularly if burning it would draw all the opposition out of the woodwork and allow them to be ID'd.
I'm just saying...
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: [/i][/b]akula_51 at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (Vgn84)
Posted by: Smiles at June 12, 2013 02:55 PM (OJzKk)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:56 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: joeindc44 didn't write this either at June 12, 2013 02:56 PM (QxSug)
True, and good point.
Posted by: Gman at June 12, 2013 02:56 PM (UkbKS)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 02:57 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: joeindc44 didn't write this either at June 12, 2013 02:57 PM (QxSug)
well I mentioned it in the post. The post counts too, not just the comments
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 02:57 PM (LCRYB)
I'll repeat, if they don't have this tech yet, they want it. And when they have it, they will use it for political purposes, NOT to try to catch terrorists.
Just as gun control is not to stop criminals, but control the populace, PRISM {or whatever whenever} will not stop terrorists, but used to attack the populace.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 02:57 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 02:57 PM (YjDyJ)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 02:58 PM (sXRxP)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 02:58 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Nessuno at June 12, 2013 02:58 PM (KBh73)
sometimes I really think our side has a problem distinguishing "very
speculative unlikely speculations" from "plausible speculations," and
often has a very hard time distinguishing either of those from "actual
facts."
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 06:49 PM (LCRYB)
Jesus, dude, smug much?
Posted by: tubal at June 12, 2013 06:52 PM (BoE3Z)
heh.
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at June 12, 2013 02:59 PM (AWmfW)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 02:59 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: joeindc44 didn't write this either at June 12, 2013 02:59 PM (QxSug)
For. Decades. Posted by: thunderb
THIS. If they pass amnesty this time... Texas is blue and the game is over.
Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2013 02:59 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: gp at June 12, 2013 02:59 PM (mk9aG)
BUT... the more important issue now is the regime using the instrumentalities of the government to spy on (NSA) and persecute (IRS, EPA, OSHA, HHS) its own citizens.
THIS!
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 12, 2013 03:00 PM (0HooB)
Posted by: thunderb at June 12, 2013 03:00 PM (sXRxP)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:00 PM (+98Gb)
WOW, you don't get it. It's not hacking. They get every telecom company to hand over access by threat of legal force. They store all the data in huge tables (think what Google does with BigTable). They create association webs and topic webs. The part that's not question is how much they scan the data itself. Do they transcribe all voice? Do they keep all emails?
There are probably multiple levels of surveillance. At a basic level it's probably all metadata, then email keywords, then whole interesting emails (Bayesian analysis), then all emails, then all voice transcription, then all voice recording.
Posted by: bonhomme at June 12, 2013 03:00 PM (yKTI2)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:00 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 03:01 PM (DPdf7)
...particularly if burning it would draw all the opposition out of the woodwork and allow them to be ID'd.
I'm just saying...
Posted by: Purp at June 12, 2013 06:55 PM (/gHaE)
There's a huge difference between things that are theoretically possible, things that are plausible, things that are likely, and things that are almost certainly true. But a lot of people seem to have trouble distinguishing these and just lump them all into the same set.
Posted by: Mætenloch at June 12, 2013 03:01 PM (pAlYe)
Posted by: joeindc44 didn't write this either at June 12, 2013 03:01 PM (QxSug)
...what if those routers already had NSA's plan-B built in?
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 03:01 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: andycanuck at June 12, 2013 03:01 PM (9+vDU)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:02 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:02 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 03:02 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2013 03:02 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: spypeach at June 12, 2013 03:03 PM (0n1+D)
Posted by: blaster at June 12, 2013 03:03 PM (cIqE4)
Posted by: Mr Chips at June 12, 2013 03:03 PM (xG1Lo)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:03 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:03 PM (+98Gb)
Oh, and I agree with Turkey O Tuley that Prescient is "killing it".
It doesn't matter who or what Snowden is; all that matters is what he says is already proven true. There's a big ole building in UT that backs this up.
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at June 12, 2013 03:03 PM (KL49F)
Posted by: joeindc44 didn't write this either at June 12, 2013 03:04 PM (QxSug)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:04 PM (Su0W2)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:04 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at June 12, 2013 03:05 PM (KL49F)
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at June 12, 2013 07:03 PM (KL49F)
Evidence please?
Posted by: Mætenloch at June 12, 2013 03:05 PM (pAlYe)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:05 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:05 PM (+98Gb)
What I was taking issue with was your characterization of his comments. He was asked for his opinion and he gave it. Why make it more than it is?
Because he has been showing who he really is. After he and Cary Grant lost, he didn't have to pretend anymore. When a pol who jumps at the chance to go on Levin's show suddenly turns him down flat w/no excuse and no alternative times, he's saying Levin has outlived his usefulness.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 03:05 PM (qkZxk)
If the PRISM program is NOT political nor partisan, and is just as it is advertised, a simple anti-terror program, but IS every bit as bad as we think it is regarding privacy, then one day it WILL be used for political and partisan reasons to ferret out and put down dissent against statism. Just like the EPA; Just like the IRS; Just like the ATF; Just like the OSHA; Just like every other arm of government that finds out it has power not balanced by public oversight and strict statutory limits; it will be used to a malevolent end against the rights of the People of the United States. And that day, when something that powerful is brought to bear against the people, they might as well give up. For no means of resistance can be effective against the all seeing eye who can anticipate every move you are going to make before you can effectively organize and make it.
If this is as bad as billed, and we DON'T tear it down. We might as well pack it in. For every argument we try will be rebutted before it ever hits prime time. And every name, and every address, of everyone here, and everyplace else that is critical of statism, will be passed on to the other institutions of government for.....scrutiny. In that way this program is the final puzzle piece. Where combined with partisan regulation and legal enforcement the government becomes an all powerful censor to its own criticism where even an anonymous forums and assumed names get one regulated with extreme prejudice. Yes the IRS et al is vitally important. But so is this, if it is true. Nothing this powerful should ever be aimed at the people of the United States.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose DOOMCASTER! at June 12, 2013 03:05 PM (0q2P7)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 03:06 PM (YjDyJ)
And another bad thought. If the NSA is hiring flakes like Snowden how long until China downloads all of our phone records out of the NSA system? Or it all ends up on WikiLeaks? They aren't just evil, they are also incompetent. It is bad enough for them to have all of this intel even if everything runs perfectly, isn't politicized and has functioning oversight. But all three are mistakes to assume. If you assume amoral political hacks are managing a bunch of idiots you come to the conclusion that this is power that can't be safely wielded by anyone.
Posted by: j at June 12, 2013 03:06 PM (sCRhB)
Posted by: andycanuck at June 12, 2013 03:06 PM (9+vDU)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:06 PM (ZPrif)
however deluded those thought of benefit for Them might be.
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:06 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: M�tenloch at June 12, 2013 07:05 PM (pAlYe)
It's this kind of attitude that loses elections.
Posted by: tubal at June 12, 2013 03:07 PM (BoE3Z)
Posted by: blaster at June 12, 2013 03:07 PM (aNmZa)
Who are the not so good guys?
What were the Republicans told to make them all suddenly turn around and want amnesty, when the American people don't want amnesty.
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 03:08 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 03:08 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: Horrified Observer at June 12, 2013 03:09 PM (/sohm)
also Obama started the Racist thing on Bill and Hillary. then moved onto Any and All those that dared to question his ideas.
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:09 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:09 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:09 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:10 PM (ZPrif)
If you think your phone has been tapped, fire two shotgun blasts through it. Posted by: mallfly, nonexpert at June 12, 2013 05:55 PM (bJm7W)
And this might be the funniest thing I've ever read on this here smart military blog.
Posted by: John Galt at June 12, 2013 03:10 PM (QHvp4)
Oh, he's a source of information alright, now the question has become WHO'S information is he dishing out.
Unless this is some sort of planets align, one in a million goofy-grape clusterfuck-athon, it all seems too scripted and implausible.
If I was gonna leak, I'd never in a million years ever consider doing it the way he did. EVER.
The little man on my should is whispering "there be propaganda here". Good propaganda and disinformation ALWAYS contain huge doses of truth to make the sale.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 03:10 PM (/gHaE)
Everybody already knew that long before Snowden. I know I did.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 07:05 PM (ZPrif)
Other NSA whistleblowers confirms it's function and scale.
We've seen the Government out of control on every other issue , why not this?
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at June 12, 2013 03:10 PM (AWmfW)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:11 PM (+98Gb)
Jebus. I missed this one. Sen. One Worlder says no border is ever going to be sealed.
Also, check out the amendment that Nevada be considered a border state, also at Breitbart.
Posted by: RushBabe at June 12, 2013 03:11 PM (qkZxk)
That's a fair point as far as it goes, but go meta for a moment. The NSA scandal is yet another marker indicating an overreach of government upon its citizens. What does Obama and the New Party represent? The biggest government possible. What do all of these scandals in Federal programs indicate? The outright abuse of targeted people and the danger of an either politically malicious or derelict/incompetent government. Together they all paint the portrait of large, unaccountable, bad, rogue governance in general and, under the tenure of Obama, by Team Obama specifically.
So this NSA scandal actually does indict Obama specifically because overbearing government is his platform. He has been amazingly forthright about that. An expansive "security" policy/program via NSA speaks to that directly and is yet another political and not just Constitutional vulnerability.
Continuing, he'll be vulnerable only if the adversarial party takes charge, and it will have to not because it's only partisanship but because our system is structured such that only an adversary can challenge incumbent abuse. In this case the GOP is obligated to assume this responsibility to be true to their oaths of office in defense of the Constitution. Seems like that would be a worthwhile to incorporate the NSA scandal in the list of threats to a political regime.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 12, 2013 03:11 PM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: Michelle Chewbama at June 12, 2013 03:12 PM (EX+sq)
Posted by: rickl at June 12, 2013 03:12 PM (sdi6R)
Seems like it did all the same things but in 1997 before we had declared a GWOT.
Terrorists were already at war with us but we were not on a war footing. And Carnivore was FBI which is specifically tasked with operations within the country.
Posted by: typo dynamofo at June 12, 2013 03:12 PM (WVMUQ)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 03:14 PM (DPdf7)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:14 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:14 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at June 12, 2013 03:15 PM (b9K4P)
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 03:16 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:17 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:18 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Admiral Marcus at June 12, 2013 03:18 PM (Jsiw/)
***
It is disappointing and I'm hoping he isn't lost. He has always been, in my mind, one to watch.
Perhaps I'm just a tad TOO annoyed with him right now.
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 07:08 PM (DPdf7)
Right now? He's a traitor. Since he's obviously in love with the gang of 8 plan, he's either being blackmailed or something worse. In other words, he would love a world of one party demotard rule. Rubio, Ryan, Flake, Ayyote.. all of them are traitors of the worst kind. If they're being blackmailed by Obamas SchutzStaffel they should expose it during next televised congress meeting. If they don't we can assume they were paid off
Posted by: Heil Obama at June 12, 2013 03:18 PM (QTvb7)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:19 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: andycanuck at June 12, 2013 03:19 PM (9+vDU)
I shook my head at the tin-foily blackmail whispers about Roberts, despite the puzzling face heel turn, hung on the thin and stretched thread of "taxing power." *
I don't really think it's far-fetched anymore. And in Roberts case, thre is one specific situation in his life that would destroy his career, the life he has built and the happiness and well-being of all his family. And that yes, They Would Do It. They would expose his improper adoption, force his resignation, and threaten to remove his kids, and undo the adoption. By the way, guess who the IRS is absolutely roasting over the coals on a regular basis - families who adopt from foreign countries and claim any associated expences or credits.
I can't disagree there is no evidence he was ACTUALLY blackmailed, or that he just didn't give in under the usual pressures of a decision being all down to one man.
He might have rationalized that Obama could be voted away as well as the law.
The reports of his bad looks and distraction and red-rimmed eyes on the day of the decison, add to the picture of regret a man struggling with conscience might feel. Maybe he just has a cat allergy but I don't trust that all was as it should be anymore.
He could never admit he was blackmailed now. If he was weak enough to throw away his country for self-interest its unlikely he would become stronger after the fact. He would be absolutely ruined.
*(which, given the actual construction of the Ocare law, would have to be translated as "well the government is pretty powerful and can tax you, so that shows it's powerful enough to make you pay for refusing to buy a product from some guy so he can make a profit off of you")
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 03:19 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: docweasel at June 12, 2013 03:20 PM (l5Jl8)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:20 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:21 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 12, 2013 03:22 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:22 PM (Su0W2)
Posted by: creeper at June 12, 2013 03:23 PM (vbzvs)
Posted by: McStool at June 12, 2013 03:23 PM (rxnpE)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 03:24 PM (YjDyJ)
Posted by: docweasel at June 12, 2013 03:24 PM (WomN7)
i don't think it's far-fetched but it's still very much pure, complete speculation, "connecting the dots," etc., and we usually do not go to the information market to peddle our mere speculations. People who do look a bit silly.
Now I can tell you in confidence, here in a blog comment area, I've indulged this speculation and I see nothing wrong with it as a speculation. It might be true. And with this crowd... who knows.
But still there's a difference between these two sets:
What I can prove, what I can *almost* prove, and implications that flow directly from these two
AND
What I can speculate and connect-the-dots on
The former is what's usually acknowledged as Serious Stuff we have public debates about. The latter, the Speculations and Suspicions, is what we grouse about with fellow friendlies.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:24 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:24 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:24 PM (ZPrif)
Before we all suspected the IRS was targeting political enemies, there has been chatter and occasional Congressional talk even. But most wrote it off as black helicopter stuff. Now here it is on the front page of every newspaper, undeniable. And equally undeniable is that Obama is going to get away with it. As we slowly realize that the outrage is going to curdle into terror. And forget 2014 and after because fundraising is going to become all but impossible.
Posted by: John Morris at June 12, 2013 03:25 PM (sCRhB)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 03:25 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:25 PM (ZPrif)
m-w.com
welter nounDefinition of WELTER1 : a state of wild disorder : turmoil 2 : a chaotic mass or jumble <a bewildering welter of data>
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:26 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: The Prophet John Fogerty at June 12, 2013 03:26 PM (p4U6S)
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 03:26 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:27 PM (ZPrif)
So let's say we're both half right. You can use it like this ("welter of data" is a given example) but not JUST like this. I thought it meant "avalanche," it doesn't, it means "confusing tumble."
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:27 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 03:27 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 07:19 PM (LYwCh)
He has a job for life. How would he be absolutely ruined?
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 03:27 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:28 PM (Su0W2)
Posted by: docweasel at June 12, 2013 03:28 PM (lnUW/)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 03:28 PM (YjDyJ)
With two you get eggroll.
Posted by: Chinese Spy Asylum and Recruiting, Inc. at June 12, 2013 03:29 PM (wAQA5)
What else we can have a serious debate on is what can we do about it when it happens. Because if it hasn't happened yet, it is a fairly straight line projection to assume that if a half dozen agencies of the FedGov, under multiple cabinet heads, are utterly weaponized that if the NSA retains any capability to do this sort of crap that it will be turned on us sooner rather than later.
Their moral code doesn't tell them that doing this is wrong and we appear powerless to impose our code upon them. Options?
Posted by: John Morris at June 12, 2013 03:29 PM (sCRhB)
Nobody rides for free. If so, then they were at a minimum, contributing.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 03:30 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 12, 2013 03:31 PM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:31 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 03:32 PM (ZPrif)
My long-term concern is that the Democrats will suffer from all these scandals, a Republican will take the White House in 2016, and then we as a nation will breathe a sigh of relief and decide that we've put all this messiness behind us.
Yet, the federal government will just keep on growing in power.
Posted by: sandy burger at June 12, 2013 03:32 PM (rm2L3)
yup.
Anyone who's not afraid of their government hasn't been paying attention.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:33 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: BarbaraS at June 12, 2013 03:34 PM (fPChK)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 03:34 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:34 PM (nqBYe)
Oh! Look over there! Questions! Snowden: gay or metrosexual or just a nerd? The Fourth Amendment: what are its limits when it comes to metadata? Will Clapper resign? So much to talk about.
Posted by: Lois Lerner at June 12, 2013 03:34 PM (bKA83)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 07:31 PM (7mQyC)
Dude thats funny but you KNOW that many people would take comfort in that and choose to believe it, rather than believe their once great country has become a horrible nightmare that not even Orwell could imagine.
Posted by: Heil Obama at June 12, 2013 03:35 PM (QTvb7)
Posted by: T. at June 12, 2013 03:36 PM (+GDxM)
If he's a defector of sorts, many have a tendency to be fabulists to some degree. It helps to make the sale to whoever is buying.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 03:36 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at June 12, 2013 03:37 PM (FkH4y)
I think this post and the last post make for an interesting juxtaposition.
No matter who here is right - 20th level chess or just the chaos of idiocy or in-between - something big sure seems to be happening within the fed govt. Like a power play almost.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 12, 2013 03:38 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:38 PM (GEICT)
of course we laughed and were caught in disbelief that those of us that thought by our being citizens that tried to obey law, go to work provide for children, or serve the country they grew up sent to foreign lands would now be considered questionable citizens and treated with sneers by this administration and their lapdog media?
are we sheltered by the constitution and bill of rights or not?
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:39 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: ontherocks at June 12, 2013 03:39 PM (5TeiH)
Posted by: Ulrich Mühe at June 12, 2013 03:39 PM (8ZskC)
397 Everything on Ace's blog, including the comments, is "open source" data. Anybody on the internet can grab all of it.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 07:25 PM (ZPrif)
Well then I'd like to take a peek at the open source for the italics button.
Posted by: McStool at June 12, 2013 03:39 PM (rxnpE)
380 Photographic evidence that Snowden's not lying linked in my sock.
Posted by: andycanuck at June 12, 2013 07:19 PM (9+vDU)
Mr. Canuck you nailed it.
Posted by: ExSnipe at June 12, 2013 03:40 PM (PBm/l)
Posted by: L, elle at June 12, 2013 03:40 PM (0PiQ4)
I think that political groupings can be split a number of different ways. There is the right/left one, of course. Another is the statist/libertarian split.
Another, though, and perhaps the most important one, psychographically, is the split between those who like to think and believe reason is a weapon and those who don't like to think and believe reason "just confuses things" and keeps us from doing that which we must all do, which is Act Without Thinking.
I'm proud to say I'm not part of this latter party and I'm proud to say I want to remain in the former one.
The tin-soldier patriots, the Angry Men who are forever saying "Let's stop talking and thinking and just EMOTE," can, frankly, go hang.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:41 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:41 PM (Su0W2)
Posted by: BarbaraS at June 12, 2013 03:41 PM (fPChK)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:42 PM (Su0W2)
Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 03:43 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: rickl at June 12, 2013 03:43 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:44 PM (GEICT)
I'm grateful to be a Christian. I know that I'm not supposed to be afraid of what human beings can do.
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 07:41 PM (Su0W2)
Even Jesus was afraid of what humans will do.
Posted by: McStool at June 12, 2013 03:44 PM (rxnpE)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:44 PM (Su0W2)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:44 PM (GEICT)
http://tinyurl.com/ldpjfbo
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 03:44 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2013 03:45 PM (YjDyJ)
121 The govt is just using ftp to get data from Google.
PRISM is the tool used by analyt's to access that data.
The Google data is only entered in the system after a court orders it and it's downloaded via old FTP.
It's not a magic hack-everything program. There is no such program.
=======
Not so fast- we are talking about more data than you could FTP in your lifetime. The earlier whistleblower said they have an interface device at the transport layer in AT *and* T facilities- why couldn't they? It would be much realistic to grab it off the wire than bother trying to FTP a datacenter's worth of data.
And don't mistaken Google for a search and advertising company. That's true too, but they have a long history of CIA involvement too. And most importantly, they are in the transport business as well- they own their own trans-ocean fiber... to Asia in fact (if memory serves).
I firmly believe they grab it ALL off the wire (all internet traffic they can get) and then scrub the encryption and store it (this can be done brute force, or through backdoors). Utah isn't an FTP landing spot.
Posted by: BunkerintheBurbs at June 12, 2013 03:45 PM (0tHG6)
http://www.straightlinelogic.com/straightlinelogic/June_10,_2013.html
Posted by: John Galt at June 12, 2013 03:45 PM (QHvp4)
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:46 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: L, elle at June 12, 2013 03:46 PM (0PiQ4)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 03:47 PM (8JJ6O)
Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at June 12, 2013 07:37 PM (FkH4y)
Well, that certainly seems threatening. How bout you Horde?
If Dr. Mabuse himself has given up on the right, how can any of us carry on? And if he tells us we're going to our graves, all we can do is lie down.
Or just do an eyeroll. There's always the eyeroll.
Posted by: Splunge at June 12, 2013 03:47 PM (bKA83)
Posted by: blaster at June 12, 2013 03:48 PM (ZoqfE)
Posted by: Xavier at June 12, 2013 03:48 PM (GYcOo)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:48 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:48 PM (Su0W2)
If Roberts were to admit he was blackmailed into writing an opinion favorable to his blackmailer, he would have to resign or be impeached, and his legacy and reputation utterly disgraced, the court disgraced and suspect itself, and it goes without saying all his other decisions would be suspect because he is not incorrupt.
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 03:48 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: booger at June 12, 2013 03:50 PM (E1tcO)
Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 03:50 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 03:50 PM (Su0W2)
It's always the fag-shit, or the coward-shit, or both. Instead of telling me why I'm wrong, Dr. Mabuse just tells me I'm a faggot who's weak in the knees.
There is a place where actual physical courage is tested and I can assure you it's not in a blog's comments areas.
Oh, the Achilleses and Audie Murphy's who've passed through this blog's comments area... Men of Broad Shoulders and Steely Spines, they'll be the first to tell you.
Some of them have even won the Medal of Honor for particularly truculent comments! They got the Medal of Honor with S-cluster, S for Internet Snarkitude.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:51 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: . at June 12, 2013 03:51 PM (CnAXM)
So Sarah, you'd rather, if this in fact occurred, for him to remain silent about it?
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 03:52 PM (/b8+5)
it does not mean they're wrong, no, but: This guy worked there for three months. Three. Further, he's got a major agenda and seems to have sought the job to cherry-pick evidence for his beliefs.
The simple fact is I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:52 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Emily at June 12, 2013 03:53 PM (TD7Za)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 12, 2013 03:54 PM (GEICT)
1) Snowden has only shown the tip of the iceberg. Why else are the rats at the CIA, NSA and the White House scrambling?
2) Most people have no problem with the Feds using dragnet style data-mining to seek out terrorists. What we DO have trouble with is that it was SECRET data-mining, secret even from those in congress who should have known, and that they were misusing laws written to monitor foreigners in order to scoop up data on US citizens. Very bad.
3) Obama claims not to know what his administration is doing -- he reads about them in the paper, doncha know -- yet we are supposed to trust him that he knows what they're all doing on his watch, and that it would never lead to any abuses. Great. Just Great.
Forget Snowden the person. He only matters to himself.
Posted by: Starboardhelm at June 12, 2013 03:54 PM (hHgxI)
Posted by: Deety at June 12, 2013 03:54 PM (Y4Lwq)
I just don't see Snowden's word as very good.
I believe him that SOMETHING is going on, and it may be sinister or at least troubling, but I don't think I think he knows much more the the sketchiest notion of what he's talking about.
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 03:54 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 07:52 PM (/b8+5)
Is English your first language?
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 03:54 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 12, 2013 03:55 PM (XIxXP)
Posted by: Turkey O Tooley at June 12, 2013 03:55 PM (OqYis)
Posted by: Ken Royall at June 12, 2013 03:55 PM (csm7B)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 03:55 PM (8JJ6O)
which isn't so. If the truth of thee matter is He used His position as Justice to protect his position in life etc
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:56 PM (nqBYe)
#382 - "The reports of his [Chief Justice Roberts'] bad looks and distraction and red-rimmed eyes on the day of the decison, add to the picture of regret a man struggling with conscience might feel."
I cannot find that there were "reports" of this. I can find exactly one: a tweet by Jeffrey Toobin: http://tinyurl.com/83dzd9u
Other people must have seen Roberts that day, but nobody else has commented on his appearance as being anything out of the ordinary. I read everything I could find on the subject in the days after that debacle, and nobody ever said that Roberts appeared to be suffering undue strain. My memory of the aftermath is quite the opposite: he headed off almost immediately to give some lectures in Europe (Malta, I think), and he was cracking jokes with the reporters at the airport. Not the picture of a man who'd just had his arm twisted and forced to betray his conscience.
Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at June 12, 2013 03:56 PM (FkH4y)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 12, 2013 03:57 PM (XIxXP)
I hope to not care about a thing, in about an hour.
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:57 PM (nqBYe)
We only have the word of Glenn Greenwalt and the documentary filmmaker who said she went there to film him.
He could be anywhere and the Hong Kong thing nothing but a fake.
Posted by: Miss Marple at June 12, 2013 03:58 PM (GoIUi)
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 07:51 PM (LCRYB)
You must be new here.
Posted by: mugiwara at June 12, 2013 03:58 PM (hpYnL)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 12, 2013 03:59 PM (XIxXP)
now off to inebriated bliss .
i hope
Posted by: willow at June 12, 2013 03:59 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at June 12, 2013 04:00 PM (iwHSQ)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 12, 2013 04:00 PM (XIxXP)
Posted by: JohnEReb at June 12, 2013 04:00 PM (Sn5UN)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 04:01 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 07:52 PM (/b8+5)
Is English your first language?
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 07:54 PM (LYwCh)
Are you a lefty? (see how that feels) So far you've done nothing but attack me and render Justice Roberts either impeached or writing his resignation.
I don't think we have even the slightest clue about all of this stuff being revealed, right now, it's all conjecture. Even the attorney's they are interviewing on all the shows can't agree if these NSA snoopings are even legal and constitutional. Each side provides an excellent argument for why they are unconstitutional or constitutional.
Normal, average Americans, are pretty confused by now. I'm starting to be suspect of anyone who absolutely positively knows what's going on and has an opinion.
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 04:02 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Hidajunshin at June 12, 2013 04:02 PM (lIveo)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at June 12, 2013 04:02 PM (iwHSQ)
Posted by: phoenixgirl@phxazgrl..back home at June 12, 2013 04:04 PM (8JJ6O)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 12, 2013 04:04 PM (XIxXP)
I'd suggest you focus on what the past whistleblowers and who did go the AG route are telling you, Snowden himself isn't even need here.
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 04:08 PM (7mQyC)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 12, 2013 04:09 PM (Su0W2)
I really need some profession help, and some A&D ointment.
Posted by: The Real James Clapper at June 12, 2013 04:11 PM (uPbpg)
Posted by: ace at June 12, 2013 07:52 PM (LCRYB)
Yeah, he seems to be one of those twenty something leftish libertarians that have been so prevalent the past decade or so and their big thing is exactly this, using tech to "out" people and governments, so this could be nothing more than him seeking his 15 minutes of internet fame, but, he may have actually stumbled onto something big while seeking his 15 minutes, only time will tell i guess.
Posted by: booger at June 12, 2013 04:12 PM (E1tcO)
Assume 20 calls/day/each (very generous)
Assume 10k metadata/call (very generous)
10k * 20 = 200k/phone/day
5B * 200k = 1,000TB/day metadata
The vast majority of that will age out having no discernible intel significance pretty quickly...a matter of months at most.
With current COTS 2T drives, you're looking at floorspace about the size of a basketball court to hold daily untriaged data for a few months to see if anything develops from it.
I think this estimate is very very conservative in terms of needed drive space. Reality is probably an order of magnitude less, even lesser if data compression techniques are used.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 04:12 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Jen at June 12, 2013 04:14 PM (lXarB)
And remember, I have no special knowledge of anything. I could be totally wrong. Just thinking out loud.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 07:27 PM (ZPrif)
I was responding to your 371:
371 It's not clear yet what data PRISM is the interface to. It is not
clear yet if that data is unconstitutional. It's not clear if that data
is of Americans. NSA is allowed to collect all the data it can on
foreigners.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 12, 2013 07:14 PM (ZPrif)
I might have better said - then let us clear it up.
(And note I'm not referring to public and voluntary statements or disclosures in open forums or Pinterest or Twitter or blog comments - )
It should be made clear at once, and absolutely. On the record, in the open, and if what they are doing is ambigious, establish it and sharply correct any overstep of limits,
If it takes re affirmation that they are forbidden to collect or trawl
any unfiltered data or other communications or movements or associations
of the domestic population, or it takes law or any decisions having the effect of law to curtail that "general warrant" trawl, there is no skin off of anyone's nose to make that plain. Unless of course they are spying this way and don't care to stop. In which case we need to stop it.
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 04:16 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: Brother Cavil, totally not nuking the Colonies this week at June 12, 2013 04:17 PM (m9V0o)
It appears Snowden is a weasel--not surprising.
Time to accept what he has opened up, and tell him we'll take it from here.
No point in getting caught up in who the messenger is.
Work the message.
Posted by: irongrampa at June 12, 2013 04:17 PM (SAMxH)
Oh EFF U
Are standards are "Don't be so morally F*cked up that we look like hypocrites trying to defend your F*ckedupness"
Far from lily white. Don't get abortions or help someone else do so. Don't cheat on your wife or get caught in strip clubs. Don't be a drunk. Don't be a miser or all around dick (unless your last name is Cheney then it's OK).
If you think those personal conduct standards are tough that just shows how sad a state society is in.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose DOOMCASTER! at June 12, 2013 04:25 PM (0q2P7)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at June 12, 2013 04:26 PM (iwHSQ)
and I would add, I knew Ace would come around to this position, he always does, he always comes around to defending the status quo.
so the my question is not whether Ace is really a conservative or not, but rather if all these people, who support all these statist positions are conservatives, then what good is that label? what does it even mean?
right about now, I don't think it means anything.
Posted by: Shoey at June 12, 2013 04:27 PM (m6OUa)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at June 12, 2013 07:57 PM (XIxXP)
Isn't it just possible that Justice Roberts happens to be a man of low character? Even before the OCare case got to the court, he attacked those who suggested that Kagan should recuse herself, even though her participation was a clear and unambiguous violation of judicial ethics. He seemed pretty okay with that.
Posted by: somebody else, not me at June 12, 2013 04:28 PM (29vnO)
Posted by: Socratease at June 12, 2013 04:30 PM (3V4IJ)
Posted by: GalosGann at June 12, 2013 04:34 PM (vW1n3)
Posted by: Jay at June 12, 2013 04:34 PM (iJBvZ)
Posted by: Screwed at June 12, 2013 04:36 PM (ajk+Y)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at June 12, 2013 04:38 PM (iwHSQ)
Posted by: MikeTheMoose DOOMCASTER! at June 12, 2013 04:39 PM (0q2P7)
Anddddd.... saying Prism is just a Data Management system... is like saying SQL is just a way to find data...
Technically correct... as SQL means structured query language...
But its also the name of a specific Microsoft Database product.
Posted by: Romeo13 at June 12, 2013 04:44 PM (lZBBB)
Posted by: . at June 12, 2013 04:47 PM (CnAXM)
"well, no one's getting impeached for going too far to protect the American people from a terrorist attack."
Impeachment isn't my goal and it shouldn't be anyone' s. My goal is preservation of my liberty, what's left of it
And ...when they go too far, and STILL don't protect Americans from terrorist attacks with either open warning or insistent warning from foreign intelligence, AND the data collected in what amounts to a general warrant on the domestic population, in order to be directed against that population (who else is it really aimed at) that population is not going to stand for it. And if they would stand for it theres nothing left for the government to defend, except maybe itself.
It hardly matters whether the data has been put in the service of politically motivated retribution, so far ---- but because the kind of power that information brings will be irresistible and it WILL BE. If not now, in the future. And the scope of those surveyed and the depth and breadth of the information to misuse only grows larger. This administration or those friendly to it have already set the IRS to harass opposition and brought the other alphabets down on their heads.
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 04:51 PM (LYwCh)
Posted by: MikeTheMoose DOOMCASTER! at June 12, 2013 04:51 PM (0q2P7)
Posted by: Brother Cavil, totally not nuking the Colonies this week at June 12, 2013 04:59 PM (m9V0o)
Posted by: SarahW at June 12, 2013 05:03 PM (LYwCh)
Yet.
Posted by: CommonSenseMom at June 12, 2013 05:07 PM (MfA31)
Posted by: Michelle Chewbama at June 12, 2013 05:08 PM (EX+sq)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 12, 2013 05:11 PM (7mQyC)
... what I wonder is if Snowden played this "light" ... revealing the most non-destructive stuff first ...
The federal surveillance programs revealed in media reports are just "the tip of the iceberg," a House Democrat said Wednesday.
Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.) said lawmakers learned "significantly more" about the spy programs at the National Security Agency (NSA) during a briefing on Tuesday with counterterrorism officials.
"What we learned in there," Sanchez said, "is significantly more than what is out in the media today."
... there supposedly more stuff to leak. It looks more and more that Snowden leaked the light-duty stuff to get everybody's attention, and now, NSA has to fess up to Congresscritters and Senators about the entire scope of their projects, including the stuff he never leaked.
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at June 12, 2013 05:11 PM (e8kgV)
Posted by: Minuteman at June 12, 2013 05:12 PM (dSE0q)
That is all
Posted by: Erich Kempner at June 12, 2013 05:20 PM (QTvb7)
Posted by: tsj017 at June 12, 2013 05:33 PM (tIcJF)
505 - "If you think those personal conduct standards are tough that just shows how sad a state society is in."
I'm not making any general observations on personal conduct standards or the state of society. I'm saying that if we're going to be so fastidious that we'll slam the door in the face of any ally who isn't demonstrably in a state of grace then we're not serious people. Those "rough men standing ready in the night" aren't all sterling characters either, despite Americans' obsessive hagiography when it comes to the military, but we don't disdain their assistance just because they might be "dodgy" or boastful or have a taste for interesting women. I just want to know what Snowdon has to say and if it's true; his academic credentials, his friends, his fears and ambitions are really not important.
Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at June 12, 2013 05:36 PM (FkH4y)
Posted by: epobirs at June 12, 2013 05:37 PM (kcfmt)
Posted by: . at June 12, 2013 05:38 PM (CnAXM)
Don't worry. Dick Cheney is on our side.
Posted by: sandy burger at June 12, 2013 05:39 PM (Yhr8a)
Posted by: Ken Royall at June 12, 2013 05:52 PM (csm7B)
Precisely. The Snowden allegations aren't all that interesting in that we already suspected them anyway.
A better question is were our worst suspicions being exceeded?
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 12, 2013 06:14 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Giant Orb at June 12, 2013 06:20 PM (j7n80)
Thing is, Snowden may have questionable motives, and he may have a less than studied grasp of the precise/deceptive technical jargon employed by veteran Intelligence Community policy wonks, and he may lack a sympathetic media to cover for him, but none of that really matters. It really doesn't.
What does matter is that a concept approximating the truth has been revealed to the public. Either by revelation or assumption, the America people are now pondering if they want to be locked in a total surveillance state, never more than one Mouse Click of Trust away from abject tyranny. It doesn't matter what the motives of the State are for building this monster, or what Snowden's motives in showing us a glimpse of it were.
What matters is the monster.
Posted by: Artemus Khan, Supervillain-Billionaire-Layabout at June 12, 2013 06:28 PM (k1vsl)
If the immigration bill flames out because of Dem over reach, the legislative part of the second term is officially over. Of course Obama has always been very effective turning the bureaucracy a permanent agent of his party.
Posted by: Tocquevillian at June 12, 2013 06:42 PM (iuY0Y)
The Rosenbergs weren't all that good at their intended treason but their intent was without dispute.
Just because you accidentally chose a Nerf bat doesn't get you off the hook if you tried to beat someone to death with it.
Posted by: epobirs at June 12, 2013 07:13 PM (kcfmt)
Posted by: secretary of state at June 12, 2013 07:24 PM (tFh1l)
Posted by: secretary of state at June 12, 2013 07:25 PM (tFh1l)
It is tough to debate Ace's position when it keeps growing! And expounding!
However, I will take issue with one final point which is that he is "favoring his favorite scandals".
The LIV does not give a fuck about James Rosen, the AP, or Benghazi. They just don't.
Perhaps they do about the IRS b/c they are universally hated and perhaps they do about Verizon b/c some are Verizon customers, but metadata, etc., eyes gloss over.
But these fucking perverts, etc., sure as FUCK care about the government keeping a record of everything a person puts online, whether it's a fantasy sports page, this fantastic blog, etc.
It's a winner with who we need to win over. So, even on a pure political/favorite scandal point of view, this has fucking legs and needs to be fired up (aside from obvious fundamental point of views).
Both parties are pooh-poohing it because a lot of these fucks are equally as guilty in allowing this shit to happen.
I REPEAT: This conduct is FUCKING ADMITTED. Mr. Binney (no fool and not in Hong Kong with a smoking hot girlfriend) has SEEN THE FUCKING DATA COLLECTING MACHINES OF THE NSA in AT&T's San Fran facility.
Snowden just shined a big ole fucking light on it. And he backed it up with a fucking court order.
Game. Set. Match. Question now is, what do we do about it? Are we citizens or serfs?
And don't give me that "protect the fucking American people" garbage. From the same government that leaves the borders wide open and can't identify two fucking Chechen youtube jihadis we were warned about.
Give me a fucking break.
Posted by: prescient11 at June 12, 2013 07:53 PM (DtsQf)
Posted by: Brisco_County at June 12, 2013 07:54 PM (B0Zzk)
Posted by: Brisco_County at June 12, 2013 07:59 PM (B0Zzk)
544:
They care about what they care about. They get big brother. They also get that they do not want shit they post online about anything to be saved for all time and tied back to them. I would wager heavily on that.
Posted by: prescient11 at June 12, 2013 08:03 PM (DtsQf)
Posted by: Rich Fader at June 12, 2013 08:25 PM (dt8Su)
So it's even more interesting in light of this that this guy went to Hong Kong.
Posted by: caustic at June 12, 2013 08:39 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: KAT FIN at June 13, 2013 05:51 AM (A31Ll)
Posted by: Thermistockles at June 13, 2013 06:42 AM (ylre0)
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at June 13, 2013 09:55 AM (AVaK2)
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at June 13, 2013 09:57 AM (AVaK2)
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Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 12, 2013 01:52 PM (DPdf7)