Ace of Spades HQ

July 04, 2013

The Aftermath of Gettysburg
— Dave in Texas

Lee's army limped away from Gettysburg after the bloodiest battle in our history. Over 51,000 casualties in a fierce fight. They left the field showered in rain after days of heat and fury.

One of the co-bees sent me this interactive map of the battle. It's pretty interesting.

I'm sure part of this figure, the worst number of American casualties is a combination of the fighting of that week and that we fought one another. Belligerents on both sides were Americans. It's said the Vietnam War finally pushed up American casualties from all other wars above that of our own Civil War (an oxymoron if I ever heard).

The war continued on other fronts, Vicksburg surrendered 150 years ago today after a long and desperate siege. Morgan's Raid into Indiana and Ohio, a minor campaign of 2400 men that just intended to disrupt and pull union resources away from other more important campaigns, and create panic which they did.

But after Gettysburg it was like this. Like so many battles before and after.

"And then, these scenes themselves, who can adequately describe them? Houses demolished, fences destroyed, tall forest trees mowed down like so many stalks of hemp; artillery wagons crushed, broken muskets scattered in every direction, unused cartridges in immense numbers, balls of all kinds, ramrods and bayonets, bits of clothing, belts, gloves, knapsacks, letters in great quantities all lying promiscuously on the field; dead horses in great numbers, some torn almost asunder by cannon balls, some pierced in the side by grape shot, and others with their legs completely shot away; some noble chargers apparently kneeling in death, thir necks, crested with flowing manes, gracefully arched, as if still proud of the riders on their backs. And then many of the human dead, whose mutilated bodies, still unburied, where lying around in all positions. Some with their hands gently folded over on their breasts, others reclining gracefuly on their elbows, and other still leaning against trees, stumps or stones, as if wrapped in the arms of sleep, and given over sweet dreams."

One hundred and fifty years ago today there were too many Americans to be buried. Lincoln spoke there at a dedication to the cemetery that we created out of necessity and the logistics of the time. We had to bury them there, just like we had to bury American soldiers in Europe four score years later.

July 4. One hundred and fifty years ago men were buried where they fell in battlefield graves, or churchyards. Townspeople and farmers found dead men and planted them in the ground. Beginning in August of that year, plans were made and property purchased to bury the dead in a dedicated cemetery, the Gettysburg National Cemetery. Several thousand of the dead were re-interred, pulled from the ground where they fell and laid to rest for eternity here.

In November of that year, 4 months after the battle Abraham Lincoln spoke these words at this place.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before usÂ—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotionÂ—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vainÂ—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedomÂ—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Morgan's Raid was tipped to me by kevlarchick, an Oh-hi-yo-han.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at 10:02 AM | Comments (542)
Post contains 677 words, total size 5 kb.

1 1st

Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 10:04 AM (4IFx8)

2 OT: When in the Course of human Events... More: http://politicalhat.com/?p=2607 Have a happy Independence Day!

Posted by: The Political Hat at July 04, 2013 10:04 AM (XvHmy)

3 I guess in some ways the Civil War is still being fought.

Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 10:05 AM (4IFx8)

Gettysburg never fails to take my breath away. I live 20 minutes away and go up there often. Considered to be the most haunted town in the US. I would say that based on what happened there that there are a lot of troubled souls who refuse to leave.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at July 04, 2013 10:07 AM (jucos)

5 I mean, I look at the struggle between Red and Blue states as a Ccivil War.

Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 10:07 AM (4IFx8)

6 How quickly the war turned around - after Lee's triumph at Chancellorsville weeks earlier, he loses Jackson; defeat at Gettysburg, Grant takes Vicksburg...

Posted by: real joe at July 04, 2013 10:08 AM (51qWk)

7 Took the kids to Gettysburg and it is a very solemn haunting and haunted place. It's palpable.

Posted by: Thunderb at July 04, 2013 10:11 AM (Q2BAl)

The topography of the place, the people involved on both sides, the order and stories of battle on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd days - it's a helluva good story.

Then when you walk / drive the battlefield, it really sinks home.

Posted by: Count de Monet at July 04, 2013 10:11 AM (BAS5M)

9 I don't think they celebrated the 4th of July in Vicksburg til the 60s.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 10:12 AM (2/T/u)

10 The siege of Vicksburg created a whole industry of how to make wallpaper edible. Cats, dogs, and horses quickly vanished.

Probably should drive over to Vicksburg to the military park today.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 10:12 AM (8avI0)

11 if you have not gone to Gettysburg, you must....when we lived in MD we went at least one a year.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl, Happy Independence Day at July 04, 2013 10:14 AM (8JJ6O)

12 My BIL is a Civil re-enactor. He's actually from the North but participates on the Southern Side. He was up there during the weekend. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are ghosts. These are some interesting pictures from the battlefield. Some look faked but I doubt all or most of them are: http://tinyurl.com/pecxp22

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 10:14 AM (EIH0+)

13 4 Gettysburg never fails to take my breath away. I live 20 minutes away and go up there often. Considered to be the most haunted town in the US. I would say that based on what happened there that there are a lot of troubled souls who refuse to leave. Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at July 04, 2013 02:07 PM (jucos) i agree one hundred percent...you can feel them there...

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl, Happy Independence Day at July 04, 2013 10:15 AM (8JJ6O)

The most facisnating part of the battle is that the part of Picket's charge that made it into the Federal lines was commanded by Lo Armistead whose closest friend, Reynolds, was in command of the Union line where he penetrated.

Armistead had given Reynolds his personal Bible at a "going away" party when they parted to enlist in opposing armies.

Armistead was killed in the assault.

Posted by: rip van winkin at the 80s at July 04, 2013 10:17 AM (WVMUQ)

15 You are correct Tammy, the residents of Vicksburg did not celebrate the 4th of July as anything but the capture of their town until the 1960's. Even now its still touchy.

With the capture of Vicksburg, the Southern economic lifeline to England via New Orleans was severed.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 10:17 AM (8avI0)

16 5 I mean, I look at the struggle between Red and Blue states as a Ccivil War. Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 02:07 PM (4IFx

----------------- Unfortunately, another bloodbath may await some of us if the dems hold the senate and then take the House in 2014. For those that live in red states, we need continuous communication with our governors and state legislatures. They're going to need our steadfast support if nullification or even, God forbid, secession.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 10:18 AM (8wnbz)

17 4 Gettysburg never fails to take my breath away. I live 20 minutes away and go up there often. Considered to be the most haunted town in the US. I would say that based on what happened there that there are a lot of troubled souls who refuse to leave. Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at July 04, 2013 02:07 PM (jucos) I drove through the northwest side of the battlefield (over the railroad cut and towards the Peace Light) on my way home Monday night and sang Amazing Grace out the window to those souls, if they were still out there, 150 years later. Beautiful place, isn't it?

Posted by: JJ Stone at July 04, 2013 10:18 AM (AoXKG)

18 Damn phone.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 10:19 AM (8wnbz)

19 I hope and pray that if there are ghosts there it's just kind of a photographic image let behind and not an actual spirit/soul because I hate to think of all those boy and men still lost between worlds and not with the Lord so many years later after the battle took place..

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 10:21 AM (EIH0+)

20 Found on Ancestry that I had a relative that fought and died at Gettysburg. It listed his occupation as a "Dyer" and "Drummer". His widow was 19 with 3 kids. He was with the Massachusetts regiment.

Posted by: Cheri at July 04, 2013 10:22 AM (EAgmr)

21 Gettysburg is indeed haunted. As always, Lincoln's sublime words bring tears to my eyes. Thanks Dave.

Posted by: kevlarchick at July 04, 2013 10:22 AM (J1U5w)

22 "I mean, I look at the struggle between Red and Blue states as a Civil War."

The term I've heard is "Civil Cold War", and it is apt.

The other comment that I find resonant is that America has for 150 years been abusing the nomenclature. A genuine civil war is when two different sides contend for control of the same country.

No such thing occurred in our "Civil War", which was instead a war to forcibly suppress secession. The South wasn't trying to take over the North. It was trying to go its own way.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 10:25 AM (gqT4g)

23 If you can still find it, get the audio book version of Stars in Their Courses, read by its author, Shelby Foote. I love hearing him speak, God rest his soul. It's extracted from his 3 volume set on the Civil War and is dedicated to the Gettysburg Campaign.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars[/i][/b][/s] at July 04, 2013 10:26 AM (ic+2p)

24 I've never felt particularly haunted at Gettysburg, but there is an overwhelming sense of sadness.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 10:27 AM (2/T/u)

25 I remember hearing Shelby Foote from the TV series about the Civil War by Ken Burns. He did have a mellifluous speaking voice

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 10:29 AM (EIH0+)

26 Visited Gettysburg with our Scout troop back in April, after driving through a hellacious downpour on the PA Turnpike the previous evening. It's a grand and solemn place and we did not have near enough time to visit all of it.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars[/i][/b][/s] at July 04, 2013 10:30 AM (XPZpj)

27 I've never been to Gettysburg, but I have visited the battlefield at Shiloh. And yes, "haunted" is the best word for it. Such courage, beyond imagining.

Posted by: Brown Line at July 04, 2013 10:30 AM (a5bF3)

28 I also have a Massachusetts Regiment (#/designation is known but I forget) ancestor from the Civil War. Listed as a private in 1862. Don't know much more, but I'm always poking around looking for tidbits about him, his time and place.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 10:31 AM (ZshNr)

29 "With the capture of Vicksburg, the Southern economic lifeline to England via New Orleans was severed."

New Orleans was captured by a Federal fleet in April, 1862. But the capture of Vicksburg (and soon after, Port Hudson), cut off supplies from the Trans-Mississippi area.

Posted by: mrp at July 04, 2013 10:31 AM (HjPtV)

30 I've never been there (I know. My bad), but I'm definitely going next summer, God willing.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 10:32 AM (8wnbz)

31 Cheri @ 20, I have about 30 ancestors that were in the Union Army, you can get copies of your ancestor's pension records from the National Archives and you may find some very interesting surprises in them as I did. Copies of all letters written to my ggGrandmother by a son killed in battle, to prove he was her sole support. Tragic but fascinating. Costs $65 for copies of each soldier's file, can be hundreds of pages. You probably can get the information you need to order from your Ancestry information.

Here's the information at the National Archives site, the "how-to".
http://tinyurl.com/7mbfrac

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 10:33 AM (B38OD)

I worked at an historic building in Frederick MD. It was haunted. One night staying late catching up on paperwork I was visited by one that liked to open and close doors and smoke a pipe. Scared the ever living crap out of me. Needless to say I did not do that again. Frederick MD turned into one big field hospital for civil war wounded of both sides and I am sure there was a lot of activity in my building. Still raises the hair on the back of my neck just thinking about it.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at July 04, 2013 10:33 AM (jucos)

33 I've still never been to Ft. Sumter. Drives me nuts, but it's always 3 or 4 hours away from wherever I am on the coast.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 10:34 AM (ZshNr)

34 I'm always struck at how soon after the Revolution the War Between the States began, especially when you consider it fomented a good long while before it broke out.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 10:35 AM (2/T/u)

35 Too bad about the Depp film. Maybe if they had called it "The Throne Ranger", could have picked up on that zeitgeist.

Posted by: Mr. Happy-Ounce of Prevention, Pound of Cure at July 04, 2013 10:35 AM (N57hb)

36 The Kings Mountain Rev. War battleground is an eerie place.

Posted by: mrp at July 04, 2013 10:37 AM (HjPtV)

37 If slavery were not an issue, should the south been allowed to seceede? It seems that civil wars always suck big time. If this country had just allowed the south to leave, would we have been worse for the wear?

Posted by: waldo at July 04, 2013 10:39 AM (yCCOr)

38 Many people only identify Gettysburg as Picket's charge. But there were pitched battles leading up to it on the eastern and northern roads leading into the town. Many died in those battles also.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 10:40 AM (8wnbz)

39 Ultimately, for what? Technology would have made slave-labor on cotton plantations redundant within decades, at the very most. Does anyone pick cotton by hand today? Now, the trend is for slave-descendants to work for 6-figures in a unionized government job, vote for big government as a durable bloc, and resist any efforts to break up the Federal Plantation. That, or join a gang, sell drugs, and shoot other black people.

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 10:40 AM (fS2Sn)

40 "I've never felt particularly haunted at Gettysburg, but there is an overwhelming sense of sadness."

I grew up with an overwhelming sense of pride about the war, because I had family who had fought for the Union, and it was drilled into me from a young age that the war was a necessary crusade and that Lincoln was an almost mystical figure of transmogrification and moral transcendence and that what our family members had done was an enormous heroic endeavor to end slavery.

Now I just feel a sense of frustration and waste and bad decisions.

I've become much more historically literate since then. The stuff I had been fed as a child about the greatness of Lincoln I now consider hagiography of dubious accuracy. The Gettyburg Address for me can be boiled down to the idea that "government... shall not perish from the earth".

Intrusive, dictatorial, centralized, monitoring, controlling government. What happened under Lincoln -- not only the war but the wholesale federal assault on habeas corpus and press freedoms and trade freedoms -- was one of the great rotations of the ratchet toward the modern Fedzilla state in which no one's ever allowed to mind their own business.

Slavery was a colossal, unmitigated evil. Yet twenty years after the war, Brazil, which was an even larger and more abusive slave nation than had been antebellum America, got rid of slavery. Without a witless and wasteful war. Without Fedzilla. What might have been.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 10:41 AM (gqT4g)

41 One of my great-great-uncles died at Gettysburg, along with nearly 50 other young men from my Indiana home town, Shelbyville, Indiana, which had a population at that time of about 5000 people. A whole generation of its best young men gone in three days, just like that.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 10:41 AM (ptcFO)

42 Too bad about the Depp film. Maybe if they had called it "The Throne Ranger", could have picked up on that zeitgeist. I couldn't even get through the trailer.

Posted by: eleven at July 04, 2013 10:41 AM (fsLdt)

43 35 Too bad about the Depp film. Maybe if they had called it "The Throne Ranger", could have picked up on that zeitgeist. Posted by: Mr. Happy-Ounce of Prevention, Pound of Cure at July 04, 2013 02:35 PM (N57hb) How about The Boned Ranger?

Posted by: waldo at July 04, 2013 10:41 AM (yCCOr)

44 35 Too bad about the Depp film. Maybe if they had called it "The Throne Ranger", could have picked up on that zeitgeist. Posted by: Mr. Happy-Ounce of Prevention, Pound of Cure at July 04, 2013 02:35 PM (N57hb)
That title conjures up a vision of Tonto on a toilet.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at July 04, 2013 10:42 AM (OgQih)

45 I'm always struck at how soon after the Revolution the War Between the States began, especially when you consider it fomented a good long while before it broke out.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 02:35 PM (2/T/u)

I'm not too surprised, probably because the north and south were never really in total agreement about the revolution to start with. Both sides had to cut deals to get everybody on board.

Posted by: Berserker at July 04, 2013 10:43 AM (FMbng)

46 Born and bred in the South, I retain a certain antipathy for folks from the North. It would be less than it is were it not for the fact that so many carpetbaggers are still moving in. That is just a fact..., not a prejudice.

I still put up the flag every day, but on Confederate Memorial Day, I hoist a Bonnie Blue flag beneath. No one has ever said anything. They probably figure I'm from Texas or something.

Can't listen to 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' without getting a little teary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRg_rxXQ_E

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 10:43 AM (aDwsi)

47 Watch Turners Gettysburg, then visit. It's really the best way to understand. Standing in the tree line looking at the Angle and the Copse of trees really hammers it home. Imagining tens of thousands of men on either side of that. If you read about the Devils Den, then see it, you wonder how it could have happened. Standing at the top of the hill where Chamberlain stood, again, you have to wonder how it all happened.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 10:43 AM (c28BI)

48 I can't watch Civil War movies. Mass infantry charges across open ground are utterly revolting.

Posted by: SFGoth at July 04, 2013 10:44 AM (HFfFn)

49 Read original Lincoln papers. Letters, legal briefs, etc. You can maybe take a pass on his poetry, but do check out his patent application if you find a link to it. On tablet, can't link myself.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 10:44 AM (ZshNr)

50 A Masked Man is introduced to the mystical gaia induced way of love making. He wanted it...he wanted it bad. And Tonto was going to give it to him -- Injun' Style!

Posted by: waldo at July 04, 2013 10:45 AM (E6jji)

51 If Lincoln had wanted to perfect the Union without all the killing he ultimately achieved, he would have sought a small-government, free-market solution. Almost without a doubt, the cheaper way in terms of lives and fortune.... Instead, we got the draft, all those phony amendments to the Constitution that diluted state's rights, and (oddly enough) gun-control. http://preview.tinyurl.com/38e9ksv

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 10:45 AM (fS2Sn)

52 For what, indeed. The South was right in being wary of a huge, controlling Federal government. It was about individual States' Rights, not slavery. And they were right, slavery aside. I picked cotton by hand til I was 10 or 11, which would have been the early 70s. But I'd say it was fairly common up til he the 40s and 50s, though certainly not on the larger farms. I can remember going behind the machines to strip the bolls that were missed.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 10:45 AM (2/T/u)

If slavery were not an issue, should the south been allowed to seceede? It seems that civil wars always suck big time. If this country had just allowed the south to leave, would we have been worse for the wear?

Yes. Allowing states to leave whenever they felt like it would have led to a rapidly balkanized America, and probably would have resulted in conquest at a later date.

Both sides had been itching for a fight for a while. They were simply looking for excuses to do so.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 10:46 AM (lr3d7)

54 Happy 4th to everybody. Just listened to Ray Charles' America. Great song. That song made me think of how, though I love Ace of Spades, I'm really sick of the constant "Let it burn" talk here. That just seems an incredibly whiny, childish, selfish sentiment. Listening to Ray Charles, who grew up poor, black, and blind in the Jim Crow south, highlighted that to me. As does reading about the sacrifices of those who've gone before me. We've lost two national elections and this place often sounds hopeless and despairing. I understand the Fuck Obama, and Fuck the Democrats and Leftists sentiments. I don't understand the "let it burn" sentiments. It's not a noble sentiment from an adult with any adult responsibilities or family and friends he cares about. It's the sentiment of a petulant teenager wishing untold suffering on the world cause he's depressed about a girl or a game or just cause he had a bad day. Wanting everyone to be as miserable as he is. There's nothing noble about that.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 10:46 AM (ZPrif)

55 42 Too bad about the Depp film. Maybe if they had called it "The Throne Ranger", could have picked up on that zeitgeist. *** Problem is a white guy is the hero. If Jamie Foxx played a masked black man robbing liquor stores and killing crackers it would have been a hit. Particularly if they had a hip hop version of the William Tell Overture as its theme.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 10:49 AM (Vcz4w)

56 High-O-Silver, Crackas!

Posted by: waldo at July 04, 2013 10:50 AM (E6jji)

I can't watch Civil War movies. Mass infantry charges across open ground are utterly revolting.

Up until the Civil War, casualties from battle were moderate but not that excessive. Most wars consisted of each side trying to maneuver small forces into a position where the other side was forced to retreat, so massed infantry charges were a rarity.

Unfortunately by the time of the Civil War, the ranges and accuracy on our weapons had increased dramatically. That combined with the very personal nature of the fight led to the bloodbath that we saw. The same thing happened to Europe about 50 years later.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 10:51 AM (lr3d7)

58 The stuff I had been fed as a child about the greatness of Lincoln I now consider hagiography of dubious accuracy. The Gettyburg Address for me can be boiled down to the idea that "government... shall not perish from the earth". Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 02:41 PM (gqT4g) I've been noticing a lot of Lincoln bashing going on, usually from batshit crazy neo-confederates and the occasional Ron Paul libertarian. I think the neo-confederate crowd is pissed that Lincoln out-thought and out-fought the whole lot of them--Davis, Lee, Jackson, et al, and still haven't gotten over it. And the libertarians? They're upset about Lincon's suspension of Habeas Corpus. That many Ron Paul libertarians also happen to be batshit crazy is more or less incidental to their central argument. You're wrong about Lincoln, of course. Lincoln was arguably the greatest leader this country has ever produced. It was his election, not the man himself, that caused the southern states to secede. After that, war was unavoidable. Nothing he could have done, other than meekly allow secession, would've prevented it. I suppose next you're going to be telling me 'the war of Northern Aggression' wasn't about slavery at all. That's some tiresome shit right there.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 10:51 AM (ptcFO)

59 And I'm sure I've probably engaged in some despairing talk around here. It's been a depressing time under the liberal fascist rule of Obama. But wallowing in despair is, in my mind, a sin by itself. It's ok to indulge in it briefly, but it should be recognized as the harmful habit it is. It saps the willpower of yourself and others. It increases the odds that tomorrow will be worse than today. A despairing person is a hindrance to himself, as well as his friends and family. It weakens morale, it stifles thinking, it blocks action.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 10:52 AM (ZPrif)

60 Posted by: Berserker at July 04, 2013 02:43 PM (FMbng) Very true! I hadn't really even considered that before. We are so used to a strong centralized government that no one can conceive of a time when the states were all but sovereign to themselves, and why the Southern states were so offended by the Northern ones telling them what to do. Had the yankees needed slave labor as much as the South did, there would have been no war. Classic rural vs urban issue. And slavery was a fantastic moral rallying point for those who would otherwise not have had an opinion about the South seceding.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 10:53 AM (2/T/u)

61 OTOH, I like Civil War balls. All those pretty ladies in their tight corsets and ballgowns, desperate for a gent who can dance.

Posted by: SFGoth at July 04, 2013 10:54 AM (HFfFn)

62 Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 02:52 PM (ZPrif) Very well put, Joe,.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 10:55 AM (EIH0+)

63 Posted by: SFGoth at July 04, 2013 02:54 PM (HFfFn) NOW you're talkin' !

I thought you were more of a Regency guy, though!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 10:55 AM (2/T/u)

64 WalrusRex, don't give Hollyweird any ideas. That is all we need is a sequel to Don't Be A Menace but this time serious like.

Colorado Alex, as the above shows the Civil War is not my forte. But it was the first 'modern' war with mass produced weapons of good accuracy meeting tactics that were Napoleonic. Plus stupidity as charging and trying to climb a fence, which resulted in bodies piling up like a snow drift.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 10:56 AM (8avI0)

65 My great-great grandfather, Lt Col John K. Robison, commanded the 16th PA Cavalry (161st Volunteers) at Gettysburg. He was with part of his unit behind Cemetary Ridge guarding the wagons and Union rear and endured the artillery barrage that preceded Pickett's Charge. He would have been in position to see "the high water mark of The Confederacy". My grandfather met him while courting his grand daughter. I regret that I did not learn this until recently. I wish I could have asked what Col. Robison was like.

Posted by: VA Gator at July 04, 2013 10:56 AM (Qf+nH)

OTOH, I like Civil War balls. All those pretty ladies in their tight corsets and ballgowns, desperate for a gent who can dance.

Agreed. Which reminds me, I need to start looking around for someplace to practice waltz again...

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 10:56 AM (lr3d7)

67 The civil war was not inevitable. Most slave countries in the Americas were able to rid themselves of slavery without a bloodbath. Slavery in America would have died out within decades even without Lincoln. He sped up the process, at an extraordinary cost in blood.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 10:57 AM (ZPrif)

68 Slavery is bad, no doubt. However, Simon Legree was a galvanizing fiction. Slave middens show a varied and ample diet, for example. Moreover, slaves were expensive: as a draft-horseman, I can tell you to what lengths we go to preserve horse-flesh, and a man is not less that a horse. The fellow moron's point about Brazil is really all one needs to know about our Civil War. What did it cost, for example, to rebuild Atlanta? What would Cyrus McCormick have needed to construct a workable ground-drive cotton-picker? Mass-slaughter is worse than slavery. Period.

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 10:57 AM (fS2Sn)

69 Approaching Gettysburg in sadness is Culloden battlefield in Scotland when the forces fighting for Charles Stuart (Bonny Prince Charlie) were defeated by the loyalists of the House of Hanover. It was a short bloody battle that sealed English rule over Scotland. Forlorn and palpably sad Scottish moor. If you are ever near Inverness, go there.

Posted by: Mr. Dave at July 04, 2013 10:57 AM (YSkup)

70 "Allowing states to leave whenever they felt like it would have led to a rapidly balkanized America"

As opposed to the neat ideologically and philosophically coherent America we have today. No balkanization in sight here, thank goodness!

The problems in places like the Balkans isn't that you have peoples who think and act and believe differently living in independent adjacent states. That actually is reasonably stable. And has shown itself so at times in the past when not interfered with.

The problem is when various empires arrive or arise, be it the Ottomans or the Austro-Hungarians or the Communists, and start trying to enforce the imperial edicts across those borders, start trying to amalgamate and homologate incompatible peoples who up till then had been living separately and peaceably.

That eventually leads to immense bloodshed when the fundamental incompatibilities re-emerge. Predictably so.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 10:58 AM (gqT4g)

71 For those that live in red states, we need continuous communication with our governors and state legislatures. They're going to need our steadfast support if nullification or even, God forbid, secession. Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 02:18 PM (8wnbz) The difference is that the lines of demarcation won't be nearly so clean. Imagine if the North had to fight and occupy states in their midst. A place like Ohio, or West Virginia, parts of Pennsylvania, New York, New Hampshire, and Vermont. The statists don't realize it, but, if it comes to a Civil War v.20, it ain't going to be two armies lining up - they will start out surrounded and subject to immediate and sustained guerilla warfare. Dear NSA: Just stating facts. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Posted by: blindside at July 04, 2013 10:58 AM (x7g7t)

72 Slavery did not become the cause belli for the North until the war ground on for a couple years. That is when they resurrected John Brown from his grave to wave the bloody shirt for the North, the same Union that had put John Brown in that grave.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 10:58 AM (8avI0)

73 Read "This Republic of Suffering" by Drew Galpin Faust. Explores where the bodies are buried.

Posted by: Thomas Ewing at July 04, 2013 10:58 AM (q4QfH)

74 63 Posted by: SFGoth at July 04, 2013 02:54 PM (HFfFn)

NOW you're talkin' ! I thought you were more of a Regency guy, though! Posted by: Tammy sans Thor

I prefer Regency for men's clothes and for dancing with experienced ballroom dancers (I'm mediocre here and good elsewhere), but I prefer Victorian era for women's clothes (Regency is just awful) and dancing with regular folk (though it's nice to find a good waltz partner who doesn't expect me to be Fred Astaire). At least with a waltz, I can turn my partner in 3/4 time whereas if she doesn't get the Regency dance choreography fast enough, it falls apart.

Posted by: SFGoth at July 04, 2013 10:58 AM (HFfFn)

75 I am always in awe of those of you with so much knowledge about history.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 10:59 AM (jjvz+)

76 Yes. Allowing states to leave whenever they felt like it would have led to a rapidly balkanized America, and probably would have resulted in conquest at a later date. Both sides had been itching for a fight for a while. They were simply looking for excuses to do so. Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 02:46 PM (lr3d7) A state, which really reflects the will of the people therein (except KKKalifornia), can voluntarily join, but can never leave?

Posted by: blindside at July 04, 2013 11:00 AM (x7g7t)

77 Plus stupidity as charging and trying to climb a fence, which resulted in bodies piling up like a snow drift. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 02:56 PM (8avI0) Not stupidity: necessity. They couldn't go around and there was no time to knock them down. The other deciding factor in the breakup of Pickett's charge was the introduction of rifled cannon with explosive ball to Union artillery. With the fuses timed right, they could achieve aerial bursts that would rain shrapnel down on massed formations. The effect was horrendous.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 11:00 AM (ptcFO)

78 Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 02:51 PM (ptcFO) You made some very good points there, troy. I always hate it when these thread degenerate into "Damn Yankees" threads. As I keep saying folks, remember there are people on this site who live in the North who are not "damn Yankees" in that they empathize with conservative political POV. In addition, there are people who live in the South and always have who are totally on board with leftist views. You can think it's easy to pull out the tares and not get the wheat, but it won't happen.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 11:01 AM (EIH0+)

79 I don't understand the "let it burn" sentiments. I will fight the Left and for my country til my dying breath, but I do feel like letting the bastards reap what they sowed, and I will enjoy the salt in their tears when reality comes crashing down on them.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:01 AM (2/T/u)

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 02:27 PM (2/T/u)

Tammy! Why "sans Thor"?

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, assault Hobbit at July 04, 2013 11:01 AM (D8tPj)

81 Flatbush Joe, so what's plan B? I am looking forward to the midterms. I hope we start some forward movement. I am tired of being angry and worried.

Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 11:02 AM (4IFx8)

82 Slavery did not become the cause belli for the North until the war ground on for a couple years. That is when they resurrected John Brown from his grave to wave the bloody shirt for the North, the same Union that had put John Brown in that grave. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 02:58 PM (8avI0) Not true. The reason the Republican Party came into being in the first place was because the Whigs refused to confront the Democrats over the expansion of slavery into the territories. Slavery was always an issue. Slavery was always The Issue. But hey, whatever you think gives The Cause more legitimacy.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 11:03 AM (ptcFO)

A state, which really reflects the will of the people therein (except KKKalifornia), can voluntarily join, but can never leave?

Not without the consent of all parties to the agreement. They didn't have that.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 11:04 AM (lr3d7)

84 Next year we'll have the centenary of WW1, another slaughter that has lead directly to the shape of our modern world. I knew a lot of those old vets before they died off, very modest and unassuming. Reading a book right now "Dare Call it Treason" about France in WW1, their casualties were beyond hideous. 754,000 in the 4 months of 1914, 1,550,000 in 1915, on and on. I'll be the last one making "jokes"
about surrender monkeys, they were braver than most people on the planet.

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 11:04 AM (B38OD)

Tammy! Why "sans Thor"?

Thor's being a butthead.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 11:04 AM (lr3d7)

86 Polli! We're fighting, which is never a good thing when you're 1800 miles apart!

It'll work out, but right now I am furious with him. Goth, Regency women's clothing sucks. I look totally pregnant in those Empire waisted gowns! FTR, I never said "damn" yankees. I didn't even think it.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:05 AM (2/T/u)

87 I think that the problem is in the imperfection of man. A friend of mine says that the plural of man is war. In the immortal words of some band, everybody wants to rule the world.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 11:05 AM (Vcz4w)

88 troy -- Sorry. I have to go with torque here. To ignore Lincoln's association with Northern business interests would be naive. To ignore his abuses of power would be just as naive. One can indeed make an argument that the South was concerned about the abolishment of slavery, but to suggest that Lincoln's aim was to abolish slavery begs recorded history.

"Lincoln out-thought and out-fought the whole lot of them--Davis, Lee, Jackson, et al."

We may have been through this before. But I reject that statement in particular. Given a vast superiority in men, materials, weaponry, a real Navy, etc. etc. one could argue that Lincoln and his military command were bumbling and inept.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 11:05 AM (aDwsi)

89 You could make an argument that Gettysburg was not the bloodiest battle of the Civil War and that the Battle of The Widerness/Spotsylvannia Court House was even deadlier. Together, the two battles cost 60,000 casualties with The Wilderness claiming 28.7 thousand and Spotsylvannia claiming 31.2 thousand In Civil War lore these are considered two separate battles, but they involved the exact same armies in the same vicinity with not a single days respite between the two. In our modern understanding of combat, this would be considered one battle. A week after Spottsylvania, 17,000 additional casualties were suffered at the Battle of Cold Harbor that took place in basically the same area with the same forces, which made for a grand total of 77,000 casualties in a month's time. This month of combat may have been more decisive than Gettysburg, as the South was never able to mount any kind of significant military operation afterwards

Posted by: Callmelennie at July 04, 2013 11:06 AM (KZ5J9)

90 Butthead is a perfect way to describe it, Alex! And so much more ladylike than "asshole"

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:06 AM (2/T/u)

91 Read contemporaneous newspapers and then tell me what the North thought and what the South thought. Read a lot of them.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 11:06 AM (ZshNr)

92 I wonder if Lincoln were alive today if he would have stood by his conviction that keeping America united was a good idea.

Posted by: jmel at July 04, 2013 11:06 AM (saJC9)

93 It was stupidity. Just like the US Army getting a division shot up for the HÃ¼rtgen Forest trying to flank Aachen. 33,000 casualties in the Green Hell over three months.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:07 AM (8avI0)

94 Sorry DiT, but you are not a "co-bee". You are a cob.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at July 04, 2013 11:08 AM (IN7k+)

95 We're newspapers any more reliable then?

Posted by: eleven at July 04, 2013 11:09 AM (fsLdt)

Butthead is a perfect way to describe it, Alex! And so much more ladylike than "asshole"

Thanks! Wait... what?

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 11:09 AM (lr3d7)

97 How many died in the civil war as compared to how many were "Freed"?

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:10 AM (I5Htn)

98 Raining in W. NC...,again.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 11:10 AM (aDwsi)

99 Reading Lincoln's own stuff is rewarding in more than an academic sense. He writes with more wit and clarity than any of the "Lincoln Scholars" who borrow his name to put in their book titles.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 11:10 AM (ZshNr)

100 We may have been through this before. But I reject that statement in particular. Given a vast superiority in men, materials, weaponry, a real Navy, etc. etc. one could argue that Lincoln and his military command were bumbling and inept. Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 03:05 PM (aDwsi) You can't have it both ways. 'Bumbling and inept' somehow managed to defeat Jackson and Lee? The Confederacy had an initial advantage in formally trained military leadership, taking with the bulk of West Point and all VMI graduates. That initial advantage died along with those Confederate officers, who suffered hugely disproportionate casualties in nearly every battle, primarily because of the leadership style of the day, which entailed leading the charge on horseback into the face of increasingly more advanced rifles and artillery. Lincoln finally found his generals in Grant and Sherman, particularly. Davis had Jackson and Lee at the start.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 11:10 AM (ptcFO)

101 The Wilderness lasted a whole summer. Two, really.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:11 AM (c28BI)

102 I've no beef with Lincoln, He did what he had to do when faced with a gargantuan problem. My only complaint is how everyone thinks he freed the slaves. He only freed the slaves in the South, which he had no authority to do. ( My Southern POV, of course!)

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:11 AM (2/T/u)

103 No. They were exactly the same, even a lot worse.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 11:12 AM (ZshNr)

104 Emancipation only "freed" one third of the slaves. It was more than likely an unconstitutional act by Lincoln, but there was no one to challenge it.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:12 AM (I5Htn)

105 What would it have cost the Federal government to buy every single slave at twice the FMV? Then repatriate them with an ample settlement for services rendered? What did the Civil War cost?

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:12 AM (fS2Sn)

106 I wasn't saying you do, Tammy. It has been implied here if not said. I just find those kinds of comments distressing and depressing and I always try to get off the thread before they go too far, as I shall now. It plays into the hands of people who don't mind the fall of the US if people are redoing the Civil War still angry in mind and spirit 150 years later. AND if we have another Civil War and are balkanized if makes it just dandy for folks like China and Russia who might want to invade. My time (instead of trying to convince people that we'll not all bad, bad Northeners) is to try to do what I can to keep us together by writing to Congress, by attending TP rallies and alsoy by praying for this country. Ultimately, though my citizenship is in heaven.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 11:12 AM (EIH0+)

107 Thanks! Wait... what? Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 03:09 PM (lr3d7) I meant for ME to say! No one would every accuse you of being ladylike, especially not if they've read your...writings.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:13 AM (2/T/u)

108 The bulk of West Point officers did not go to the South. There were more in the Union Army. As they taught us at West Point, of 60 major battles in the Civil War, 55 were commanded on both sides by West Point graduates, the remaining five on one side.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:13 AM (c28BI)

109 56 High-O-Silver, ~~Crackas~~ Dimes !

fixt

Posted by: Luap Nor at July 04, 2013 11:14 AM (U82Km)

110

I meant for ME to say! No one would every accuse you of being ladylike, especially not if they've read your...writings.

Aww shucks. *blushes*

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 11:14 AM (lr3d7)

111 The newspapers I meant. The biases were all cross-published and prominent. I think they even had what we'd call Truthers/Birthers in the "Abe is a Negro" log-cabin-websites.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 11:14 AM (ZshNr)

112 Where will our statues be in 2113?

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:14 AM (B3M7r)

113 Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 03:12 PM (EIH0+) I was just funnin' with you, Fenelon!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:14 AM (2/T/u)

114 91 Lincolntf, and to support and expand on your post, I'll leave a link for Google Books for "Rebellion Record", which was a series of books (10 volumes) that came out during the war, verbatim copies of newspaper articles, etc, North and South.. Link is for Vol. 2 only, but others can be accessed there.
http://tinyurl.com/mky9wo4

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 11:14 AM (B38OD)

115 The south was in the right.
As much as I am in awe of what happened I have never felt any sympathy for Yankee losses.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:15 AM (I5Htn)

116 Thanks, JHW, that stuff is priceless.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 11:16 AM (ZshNr)

117 My great-great-great grandfather fought under Chamberlain at Gettysburg. Died about 10 years after the war was over from lingering injuries. Wonder how many others died that way?

Posted by: Mr Pee Pee at July 04, 2013 11:16 AM (cZfZW)

118 I don't know. I don't have any great plan B. It might be just to survive as a hated minority for the rest of our lives and do the best we can for our friends and family. It might be to have the ideals we stand for, and which built this country, hated and mocked by the majority as racist, backwards, and bigoted. What was the plan B if you were born into a black sharecropper family in 1910 in Georgia? Do the best you can. Take care of your friends and family as best you can. Speak out against injustice the best you can. I hope there is a way forward in which we "win". There might not be. But things can always get worse. And cheering for that isn't noble. There are many minority groups in the world, and America, that live lives where they are hated and mocked by the majority rulers they live under. It doesn't mean they have to, or should, live lives of despair. You can still be happy and productive if the majority hates you. It makes it harder, of course, but that's life.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 11:17 AM (ZPrif)

119 I just realized the irony. My wife is on a rampage and I decided the wiser course was a tactical retreat. Accordingly I got some coffee and went to a secluded area I often go to on such occasions (but is definitely not a hiding place). It is at a cemetery where I can park under a shady tree overlooking a peaceful pond. So I'm in a cemetery discussing the dead of the Civil War.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 11:17 AM (Vcz4w)

120 >>> As they taught us at West Point, of 60 major battles in the Civil War, 55 were commanded on both sides by West Point graduates, tappin' away .....

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:18 AM (B3M7r)

121 Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 03:12 PM (fS2Sn) Problem with that is, the slaves would have been better off maybe, the horror of being sent to a totally alien country with no support whatsoever notwithstanding, but what would the plantation owners have done going forward? I doubt there were enough of my people (poor whites without slaves and their own land to tend) around to do the work.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:18 AM (2/T/u)

122 Off to feed the horses, take a mini hike with the wife to get the appetite up and then grab Chinese takeout. Tschuss.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 04, 2013 11:18 AM (ZshNr)

123

You made some very good points there, troy. I always hate it when these thread degenerate into "Damn Yankees" threads. As I keep saying folks, remember there are people on this site who live in the North who are not "damn Yankees" in that they empathize with conservative political POV.

YINO!

Posted by: Lurking Canuck at July 04, 2013 11:18 AM (RiLtQ)

124 troy -- Would it be more accurate to say that they were bumbling and inept until Grant and Sherman were in place, after roughly 2 years? And what depredations had the South suffered by then?

It is impossible to imagine that an impartial observer would think that, given equivalent resources, the South would not have succeeded in secession.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 11:19 AM (aDwsi)

125 Slavery in America would have died out within decades even without Lincoln.

Yep. The industrial revolution was taking off right about then. You wouldn't have need to be Einstein to realize that would obsolete slavery as an economically viable institution.

IMO, slavery was just a convenient excuse to prevent the south from cutting deals with the Brits, partnering their own western expansion, and monopolizing the port of New Orleans. With Brit naval protection, the south's ag products would have had much broader markets, and given the south greater trade access to Brit industrial product.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:19 AM (/gHaE)

126 Grew up in South Carolina, but this it wasn't about slavery thing is revisionist history at its worst. Just read the declaration of secession from the states, they make it clear that it is about slavery.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:20 AM (c28BI)

127
Today is Independence Day.

Do you know what day it is to all the illegals living in my area (the majority, btw)?

It's jueves, or what we call Thursday. All the illegals are at the car wash fixing and washing their unregistered/uninsured cars. And they drive to Auto Zone for parts and can't understand why it's closed.

Future Republicans, my ass.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:21 AM (vyPsz)

128 @121 If I get the do-over, I'll arm them, and make sure they have the tools they'll need to continue an agrarian life. They have to be armed, or the Arabs or Muslim Black Africans will just recapture them and send them to, idk, Mauritania all over again. Wherever the market exists. (Nowadays, if they're underage girls, Chicago would be prime, for example.)

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:22 AM (fS2Sn)

129
So to answer the question of where our statues will be in 2113, they'll be long gone to make room for slums and ghettos.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:22 AM (vanqS)

130 they make it clear that it is about slavery.

You always need a red meat reason to take people to war and make it popular...but is it the real reason?

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:23 AM (/gHaE)

131 115 The south was in the right. As much as I am in awe of what happened I have never felt any sympathy for Yankee losses. *** Lyrics from I'm a Good Old Rebel: Two hundred thousand Yankees lay stiff in Southern dust. We got two hundred thousand before they conquered us. They died of Southern fever and Southern steel and shot And I wish it were two million instead of what we got.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 11:23 AM (Vcz4w)

132 All history is revisionist history.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 11:23 AM (ZPrif)

133 @121 The planters can just build condos and sell them to Yankees. (We'd need effective air conditioning for a robust market in southern condos.)

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:23 AM (fS2Sn)

134

It would be less than it is were it not for the fact that so many carpetbaggers are still moving in. That is just a fact..., not a prejudice.

Carpetbaggers?? Thats retarded, sir. Have a Happy 4th!! I'm off to work. I'll finish with the observation that when a large percentage of your population are slaves, you don't have a moral high ground.

Posted by: puddleglum at July 04, 2013 11:24 AM (TlL6q)

135 Seriously, at least Alan Simpson admitted he F'd up. In fact, the only thing positive he can remotely do at this point is to excoriate the sh8t out of pro-Amnesty Republicans in public.

Posted by: SFGoth at July 04, 2013 11:24 AM (HFfFn)

136 That's my daily plan, to live my life being quietly competent. I do what I do the best I can and live conservatively. Just like I vote.

Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 11:25 AM (2mYi1)

137 declaration of secession from the states I must be thinking of something else. I don't recall any specific issue being mentioned on them. I remember Arkansas's being pretty feisty!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:25 AM (2/T/u)

138 Why? Why did we go North? Disaster. Defending your homeland, good, invading like Yankees, bad.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 04, 2013 11:25 AM (wR+pz)

139 I asked the Messicuns I work with if they celebrated Cinco de Mayo? When they said yes, I told them to come to work today. I told them they had to pick one.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:26 AM (I5Htn)

140 75 I am always in awe of those of you with so much knowledge about history.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 02:59 PM (jjvz+)

------------------

I've always wanted to be a buff.

Posted by: George Costanza at July 04, 2013 11:27 AM (5lVZz)

141 Getting into a war before you're ready for it is almost always punishing.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:27 AM (/gHaE)

142 The question of the day? Sorry we lost?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 04, 2013 11:28 AM (wR+pz)

143 This is going to drive me nuts, what the heck am I thinking of. Arkansas calls out Lincoln by name and talks about inhumanity and disgrace and ruin. You expect them to start in on wretched hives of scum and villainy by the end of it....

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:28 AM (2/T/u)

144 Declarations of Secession from Texas, Georgia, South Carolina and Mississippi.
http://tinyurl.com/hvda
I don't have the links for the others right offhand.

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 11:29 AM (B38OD)

145 The south was in the right. As much as I am in awe of what happened I have never felt any sympathy for Yankee losses. Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 03:15 PM (I5Htn) How is institutionalizing the ownership of other human beings 'right', exactly? As to your second sentence, I can't say that I feel the same indifference toward dead confederates. I served in the Army with Southern boys whose ancestors probably shot at my ancestors, and we felt we had a common bond, a shared family tradition. There were no hard feelings.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 11:30 AM (ptcFO)

146 I wonder if I should wear my Wisconsin t-shirt for Vicksburg military park...

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:30 AM (8avI0)

147
oh, and you can be as short as 4'10" for the Marine Corps

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:30 AM (GcwH1)

148 This is a great thread! Thought provoking, snark, reflection. I fear for our country, as we descend into mass stupidity. In geologic time, who will give a damn, but in our short lifetimes, some of us do.

Posted by: Alaska Paul at July 04, 2013 11:30 AM (Ppjt8)

149 Somebody's comment just got zapped. Wha happen?

Posted by: eleven at July 04, 2013 11:30 AM (fsLdt)

150 Two hundred thousand Yankees lay stiff in Southern dust.
We got two hundred thousand before they conquered us.
They died of Southern fever and Southern steel and shot
And I wish it were two million instead of what we got.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 03:23

This

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:31 AM (I5Htn)

151
yeah, it was one of mine

somebody doesn't like comments about body fat

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:32 AM (8dspl)

152 war was unavoidable Of all your horseshit, troyriser, this is the horseshittiest. It was not only avoidable, it wasn't a Civil War at all. In a civil war, two groups battle for control of one government structure. This was a separatist movement, a second American revolution, exactly like the first, except that it was crushed with a slave army. And everything that was predicted to flow from the prevention of independence has occurred -- ever-increasing centralization of State power, unlimited economic control, and now a total domestic surveillance state combined with socialism. Awesome. America died when Richmond fell. The war didn't abolish slavery. It extended slavery to include the entire population. It transformed slavery from chattel and forced agriculture into money-based free-range slavery where they let you choose your own job but forcibly take your income, and graciously allow you to keep some of their money for your own sustenance. And now, when the central government's court says that the central government's enumerated power to "regulate commerce between the States" really means the "power to control anything and everything they damn well please, so go buy some insurance you don't want or need, or else," there is no countervailing power to stop them. 150 years' worth of Americans have been taking it in the ass because assholes fell in love with that asshole Lincoln. Fuck him, and fuck you too.

Posted by: Phinn at July 04, 2013 11:32 AM (kTopm)

153 At least South vs. North had some clarity.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:33 AM (B3M7r)

154 If you like old timey fiddle music, check out Jim Taylor and Friends Civil War Collection.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 11:33 AM (Vcz4w)

155 There is plenty of primary source documentation from the Civil War. Lee went North so he could threaten the North long enough for them to sue for peace.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:33 AM (c28BI)

156 Lincoln specifically says it was not slavery. Two thirds of the slaves were not in the South.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:33 AM (I5Htn)

157

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Posted by: garrett at July 04, 2013 11:33 AM (t0KS5)

158 Texas went to war to stamp out the scourge of North Carolina yellow (?) barbecue, which is an abomination before The Lord. So there.

Posted by: Mr. Dave at July 04, 2013 11:33 AM (YSkup)

159 Thanks, JHW! I wish I could remember what I am thinking of is called. ( My grammar sucketh today)

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:34 AM (2/T/u)

160 It is impossible to imagine that an impartial observer would think that, given equivalent resources, the South would not have succeeded in secession. Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 03:19 PM (aDwsi) In a famous letter, Sherman told a Southern friend before the war pretty much exactly what would happen. The South gambled that its military prowess would win it quick, overwhelming victories, which would force the North to the peace table before Southern deficiencies in manpower and production capability became a decisive factor. In short, the South thought the North wouldn't fight, at least not for long. They were wrong.

Posted by: troyriser at July 04, 2013 11:35 AM (ptcFO)

161 yeah, the civil war was not inevitable. That's just a thoughtless comment to avoid the question of whether the bloodbath was worth it.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 11:35 AM (ZPrif)

162 What the fuck is wrong with you people? *** All Civil War threads take a turn for the worse. This has always been the case.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:35 AM (jjvz+)

163 You're quite welcome Tammy, I hope you're enjoying your day!

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 11:35 AM (B38OD)

164 @152 Epic! Yep, pretty much. Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942) Pretty soon, you won't be able to shoot down a drone over your own place. Oh, wait.

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:36 AM (fS2Sn)

165 @158 you really don't know BBQ do you? Yellow is South Carolina. NC does that vinegar stuff and a good tomato base.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:36 AM (c28BI)

166 One last thought The deadliest battle in American history was the Battle of the Meuse Argonne in WWI, which lasted five weeks and resulted in 120,000 American casualties, including 26,000 American dead. Assuming the German suffered a similar number at a minimum, this battle would have resulted in a quarter of a million casualties As for WWII, the Battle of the the Bulge resulted in 77,000 American casualties and 60,000 Americans were casualties in the first month of fighting in the Normandy hedgerow country. So Gettysburg is not the bloodiest battle in American history Of course, when you consider it took place over the course of three days and that the population of the United States was only 31 million (including 3.5 million slaves) Gettysburg is uniquely deadly. It would be the equivalent of half a million American casualties in this day and age

Posted by: Callmelennie at July 04, 2013 11:36 AM (KZ5J9)

167 Just to be clear, put me on the side that thinks we're better united than divided.

Posted by: WalrusRex at July 04, 2013 11:36 AM (Vcz4w)

168 It was a very uncivil war in fact.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:36 AM (8avI0)

169
So, to recap, you can be 4'10" for the Marines but must be at least 5'3" for the Navy.

But you can be more fatter for the Navy, so that's nice.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:36 AM (vzLhi)

170 Texas went to war to stamp out the scourge of North Carolina yellow (?) barbecue, which is an abomination before The Lord. *** Slaw? In BBQ? WTH?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:37 AM (jjvz+)

171 @NDH slaw in BBQ is for heathens.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:38 AM (c28BI)

172 If you want to measure campaigns, ok. Deadliest day.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at July 04, 2013 11:38 AM (pUqSw)

173
~~So, to recap, you can be 4'10" for the Marines but must be at least 5'3" for the Navy.~~

Wrong!

You can be as short as 4'3" to be in the U.S. Navy.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:39 AM (LPRBM)

174 You can be as short as 4'3" to be in the U.S. Navy. *** Which means Greg Gutfeld still couldn't get in.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:40 AM (jjvz+)

175 Has anyone mentioned thhat this was a century and a half ago? Because the small dick synddrome of the southerners here is like it happened Monday. We have current enemies to deal with people.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:40 AM (B3M7r)

176 And now I have this image of Robert Reich in a sailor's uniform singing, "In the Navy!"

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:41 AM (8avI0)

177
A woman who is 4'3" with 34% body fat can be in the Navy.

So, basically, you can be a dough nut and get in the Navy.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:42 AM (8dspl)

178 #86 The Regency style (empire-waist) gown was introduced by the Empress Josephine of France, patterned after gowns seen on Roman statues. It was adapted by her because she had a small bust and thus it made her look more buxom.

Those of us who are not A cups do not wear those gowns well, and they do remind one of maternity dresses. There was unfortunately a small re-issue of that style in the Carnaby Street era of the mid-1960's. I wore one to school, and was rewarded by having a guy in the lunchroom lob a Jello cube down the front of my decollatege.

Wear what becomes you and do not call unwanted attention to yourself. That is the lesson I learned from that fiasco.

Posted by: Miss Marple at July 04, 2013 11:42 AM (GoIUi)

179 I was picturing Dany Devito in Captians hat.

Posted by: eleven at July 04, 2013 11:42 AM (fsLdt)

180 Has anyone mentioned thhat this was a century and a half ago? Because the small dick synddrome of the southerners here is like it happened Monday. We have current enemies to deal with people. *** Let 'em at it. A flame war now and then gets the bile out.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:42 AM (jjvz+)

181 History (writers) are on the side of the Yanks. The facts, not so much.

I'll gladly move to any state willing to secede from this monstrosity.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:42 AM (I5Htn)

182

167 Just to be clear, put me on the side that thinks we're better united than divided.

I agree, WalrusRex.

But it is the concept of 'forced unity' that makes me cringe.

Unity by force is fascism.

The original colonies formed a Union...voluntarily.

They were promised "States Rights" as a condition of their joining the Union.

Nothing was said about...'if you join, then you can never leave'.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 11:44 AM (XWSNs)

183 I thought Antietam and Shiloh were sorta tied for the day with the most battle deaths

Cold Harbor had the deadliest hour: Seven thousand Union troops in the first hour of being marched up that ridge. Men pinned pieces of paper to their backs with their name and home town, knowing that they would probably die

my friend Jerry T, a good man, died of wounds suffered in action in Vietnam on the fourth of July, 1967. He was 19 years old

Posted by: in memory of Jerry T at July 04, 2013 11:44 AM (omBWL)

184 Miss Marple you just sent the Morons to their bunks just thinking of that and wishing being the Jell-O.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:44 AM (8avI0)

185 Has anyone mentioned thhat this was a century and a half ago? Because the small dick synddrome of the southerners here is like it happened Monday. We have current enemies to deal with people. Step 1: Correctly identify one's enemies.

Posted by: Phinn at July 04, 2013 11:44 AM (kTopm)

186 Morgenholz, I couldn't hear you over the gas you were pouring on the fire, something about a small dick. Let me just say, I'm sorry to hear about your small dick and hope it gets better.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 11:44 AM (ZPrif)

187 A woman who is 4'3" with 34% body fat can be in the Navy. So, basically, you can be a dough nut and get in the Navy. *** That whole BMI is bullshit. There s no accounting in it for body structure. I weigh 20 pounds more than my best friend yet wear clothes two size smaller.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:44 AM (jjvz+)

188 Eleven, Danny DeVito I could picture as the biker guy. Still leaves a few... hmmm Tom Cruise as the Indian?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:45 AM (8avI0)

189

181 History (writers) are on the side of the Yanks. The facts, not so much.

--------------------

There is some truth to that. Also, the very idea that South is "Down" shows the euro-centric bias of cartographers.

Posted by: BunkerintheBurbs at July 04, 2013 11:46 AM (5lVZz)

190 Sorry about that whole utter defeat thing Flatbush.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:46 AM (B3M7r)

191 Currently, enemy forces seem concentrated in the D.C. area, with a large contingent also in California

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:47 AM (/gHaE)

192 Everybody to Miss Marple's place for Jell-O shooters!!!

Posted by: andycanuck at July 04, 2013 11:47 AM (9+vDU)

193

Just thought I'd point out that none of you dumbasses fought in the Civil War. None of you have ever known anyone who's fought in the Civil War.

"Lee was Teh Greatest General Evah! Lincoln was Teh Incompootent!"

Then I guess the South won, right? Fucking hell, I'm from as far south as you can get and be on dry land, and this shit is just tiresome.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 11:47 AM (CJjw5)

194 This modified street sign seems appropriate for this thread.

http://www.ufunk.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jinks-kunst-street-art-7.jpg

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:47 AM (8avI0)

195 "Senator Menendez, call your office." http://preview.tinyurl.com/og8j3y9

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:48 AM (fS2Sn)

196
body fat is measured by pinching your flab and doing some calculations, if I recall

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:48 AM (yhYn1)

197 I'm not a Southerner and not someone who wishes the South won. Maybe if you personally insulted people's dicks more that would help the situation?

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 11:49 AM (ZPrif)

198 Logistics wins wars, not tactics or strategy. The guys who can dump the most shit into the fight almost always wins.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:49 AM (/gHaE)

199 What we need now is a good recipe thread.......

*runs*

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:49 AM (X6akg)

200 Has anyone mentioned thhat this was a century and a half ago? Because the small dick synddrome of the southerners here is like it happened Monday. We have current enemies to deal with people.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04,

Florida, by way of where? I bet I could guess boy.
Small dick? You tipped your hand right there.
Like it happened Monday? A central government running the lives of individuals in sovereign states. Now that hasn't happened in the last 150.
Current enemies? Who would that be, the ones your resident Obama has aligned himself with.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:50 AM (I5Htn)

201 N-1 S-0

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:50 AM (B3M7r)

202 Lee would have won Gettysburg if he had a bunch of properly trained long bowmen. Discuss.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (c28BI)

203 Ordinances! AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union now existing between the State of Arkansas and the other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America." Whereas, in addition to the well-founded causes of complaint set forth by this convention, in resolutions adopted on the 11th of March, A.D. 1861, against the sectional party now in power in Washington City, headed by Abraham Lincoln, he has, in the face of resolutions passed by this convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas: I dunno, I have always thought that was hysterical. So righteously indignant! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr Abraham Lincoln, Sir! Is there any point at which all y'all yank....Unionists would think we have had enough in this day and age and would jump on the succession bandwagon? Because I can totally see why my people had had a fucking NUFF. They were wrong to cling to slavery, but I can see why they were sick of being dictated to. My ancestors held no slaves, but didn't think New York and MA had the slightest right to tell them what to do.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (2/T/u)

204 I will fight the Left and for my country til my dying breath, but I do feel like letting the bastards reap what they sowed, and I will enjoy the salt in their tears when reality comes crashing down on them.

They know it won't work - it isn't designed to work - it is designed to crash the country. Why? So they can blame the scapegoats - us - and institute the gulags. As Solzhenitsyn pointed out: "The Gulags were not an unfortunate side effect of Communism; the Gulags were the whole point of Communism."

Posted by: [/i] [/b] [/u] [/s] An Observation at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (ylhEn)

205 body fat is measured by pinching your flab and doing some calculations, if I recall *** BMI is measure through a calculation of weight and height only.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (jjvz+)

206 Purp which is what Grant did. Kept throwing bodies until the other side ran out...

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (8avI0)

207
body fat is measured by pinching your flab and doing some calculations, if I recall

Which, come to think of it, is exactly how men size up boobies.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (ZgBZU)

208 We should follow this up with a Custer thread.

Posted by: eleven at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (fsLdt)

209 And while I recognize the weak-loonie/exports effect, I'm not an exporter so I prefer them around par.

Posted by: andycanuck at July 04, 2013 10:22 AM (9+vDU)

------------------------

Nonsense. The fuck outta here with that crazy talk.

Posted by: Wehrmacht on the way to the Eastern Front at July 04, 2013 11:51 AM (CJjw5)

210 body fat is measured by pinching your flab and doing some calculations, if I recall *** BMI is measure through a calculation of weight and height only. *** By BMI standards, some of Hollywood's fittest would rank as obese.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:52 AM (jjvz+)

211 Custer or Custard?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:52 AM (8avI0)

212 Hastening off, soon, to join one son for a hike, and roast lamb, and fireworks.... Have a Glorious Fourth, Moron-nation! If you have the inclination, reread the Declaration. It is awesome: (a handy link) http://preview.tinyurl.com/oo5j6u4 If you think the Signers then went on "Oprah" and became famous like a Kardashian, guess again: http://preview.tinyurl.com/p9gjkqt

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:52 AM (fS2Sn)

213 Just thought I'd point out that none of you dumbasses fought in the Civil War. None of you have ever known anyone who's fought in the Civil War.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 03:47 PM (CJjw5)

yeah, not even my ancestors. They were in italy looking at some crooked tower and saying "eh, whatsa da fucka"

Posted by: Berserker at July 04, 2013 11:52 AM (FMbng)

214 If you mix Cream soda 50/50 with Orange Crush, it tasted just like a one of those orange cream-sicles... Better than Cream or Crush alone.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:52 AM (/gHaE)

215 Oooh, a recipe thread! Please? I thought BMI had been debunked?

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:53 AM (2/T/u)

216 Custer or Custard? *** Frozen custard!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:53 AM (jjvz+)

217 I thought BMI had been debunked? *** It damn well should have been.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:53 AM (jjvz+)

218 Herr, it's a little respect for the dead so lighten up dickhead.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at July 04, 2013 11:53 AM (pUqSw)

219

Veird. Ve vere commenting on Purp's logistics comment.

Posted by: Wehrmacht on the way to the Eastern Front at July 04, 2013 11:54 AM (CJjw5)

220 Fox doing a story from Gettysburg right now.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:54 AM (X6akg)

221 Texas went to war to stamp out the scourge of eastern North Carolina yellow (?) barbecue, which is an abomination before The Lord.

So there. Posted by: Mr. Dave
---------------

FIFY

A. You are lucky that Tobacco Road isn't in here.

B. That would explain the less-than-enthusiastic involvement of W. NC in the war.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 11:54 AM (aDwsi)

222 Posted by: An Observation at July 04, 2013 03:51 PM (ylhEn) Agreed. All planned ahead, and executed incrementally so as not to alarm the Sheeple.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:54 AM (2/T/u)

223 Uh Ben I'm in Ohio. As was my gg-grandpa that volunteered in 1862. People who aren't newbs here probably know that. And jam your "boy" up your ass if you caan wedge it in nbeside your head.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:55 AM (B3M7r)

224 206 Purp which is what Grant did.

The same thing was done in WWII. German generals were shocked by the number of casualties the American commanders were willing to suffer for a win.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:55 AM (/gHaE)

225 Tschuss mein komerads!

Still wonder what my great-whatever-grandfather thought. Immigrate to the US in the 1850s from Germany only to find himself fighting as part of a Louisiana unit in the Civil War.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:56 AM (8avI0)

226 Great Grandfather; Lt. Louis Augustus Pierce, 3rd Vermont . wounded at Fredericksburg 1862, mustered out 1863 Another brother Killed in Action, Gettysburg http://vermonthistory.org/images/phocagallery/CivilWar_P/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_piercela.jpg

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at July 04, 2013 11:56 AM (mOZj5)

227

214 If you mix Cream soda 50/50 with Orange Crush, it tasted just like a one of those orange cream-sicles... Better than Cream or Crush alone.

Mmm...that sounds yummy, Purp.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 11:56 AM (XWSNs)

228 This is the only place online or in meatspace where the men fight more than the women, I swear.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 11:56 AM (2/T/u)

229 Good God - I took a break from packing boxes for my move in a very hot house and a nasty soon to be ex.

I think I'll back to work. Too much North/South arguments for me. Also, any thread that mentions small dicks, fuck you's, etc. I should stay away from.

Now man your battle stations and carry on!

Have a good 4th horde!

Posted by: Cheri at July 04, 2013 11:57 AM (EAgmr)

230 My daughter just told me she saw a truck loaded down with beach gear and a truther bumper sticker on the back. She said they shouldn't be allowed the 4th if they believe that bullshit. I don't know if what she said is stupid or whether I should be proud that she hates that truther bullshit.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:57 AM (jjvz+)

231 Now that we're discussing body fat ;^) how about thread to talk about what everybody's having for dinner. Do you make any special dishes for this day or go with burgers, hot dogs and chicken. We're having Indian chicken wraps (Asian Indian, not the Native American kind) with lots of spices and a sauce of mango, yogurt. mint and cilantro.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 11:57 AM (EIH0+)

232 Jinx! You know what to do.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 11:57 AM (jjvz+)

233 Fox is going to do a story after the break that I read about this morning. A homeowner caught someone trying to break into his house. He got him on the front lawn, hog tied him, called the police and told them they would find the guy on his front lawn....and he had to go, he was late for work.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:58 AM (X6akg)

234 Actually I am thinking of becoming an importer-exporter---potato chips, and some corn, and diapers.

Posted by: andycanuck at July 04, 2013 11:58 AM (9+vDU)

235 See? Dave can call me a dickhead. Its an earned thing.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:58 AM (B3M7r)

236 "[The war] transformed slavery from chattel and forced agriculture into money-based free-range slavery where they let you choose your own job but forcibly take your income, and graciously allow you to keep some of their money for your own sustenance."

Free-range slavery. That is a flippin' incredible turn of phrase.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 11:58 AM (gqT4g)

237 Just thought I'd point out that none of you
dumbasses fought in the Civil War. None of you have ever known anyone
who's fought in the Civil War.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04,

Jeff ,replace Civil with Revolutionary.
Now ask yourself why you are not at work today tard?

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 11:58 AM (I5Htn)

238 Well that and the fact that I'm a dickheaad.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 11:58 AM (B3M7r)

239 NDH - She sounds pretty all right to me

Posted by: Cheri at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (EAgmr)

240 The Cream/Crush experiment was quite by accident. I had two partial 2L and poured them together to reduce the space needed in the fridge.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (/gHaE)

241 Torquewrench, share cropper?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (8avI0)

242

Tami...that happened in Tulsa.

Heh.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (XWSNs)

243

If we do have an open civil war in these times, it won't have any resemblence to the last one. IMHO it'll be between rural/suburban dwellers against the large urban cities. And it will be bloody. I can see guerilla tactics as well as long term siege warfare.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (MtdOz)

244 You remember the book about toy ray guns? Independence. Day.

Posted by: Kramer at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (r98SZ)

245 What are draftees for? (asks w/e Democrat fascist/Lincoln-type Big Government Republican in power).

Posted by: Cretin, a high-grade moron at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (fS2Sn)

246 Lee would have won Gettysburg if he had a bunch of properly trained long bowmen.

Given to them by South African time travelers? 'Cause that idea might work.

Posted by: Harry "Yeah, I got nothing else" Turtledove at July 04, 2013 11:59 AM (uPbpg)

247 242 Tami...that happened in Tulsa.
Heh.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 03:59 PM (XWSNs)

Ha! They just said the homeowner worked with horses. Too funny!

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 12:00 PM (X6akg)

248
I saw an actual Union uniform, once. It was tiny. Like a men's size Small.

I think back in the WWII-era, men were like 150lbs. And yet they ate lard, toast, eggs, and bacon for breakfast.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 12:00 PM (052zE)

249 Fox is going to do a story after the break that I read about this morning. A homeowner caught someone trying to break into his house. He got him on the front lawn, hog tied him, called the police and told them they would find the guy on his front lawn....and he had to go, he was late for work. *** That is full of teh awesome

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:00 PM (jjvz+)

250 becoming an importer-exporter---potato chips, and some corn, and diapers.

Smuggling in toilets that flush and lightbulbs could be profitable.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 12:01 PM (/gHaE)

251 Now ask yourself why you are not at work today tard? That dude's Canadian. It's Boxing Day or some shit there.

Posted by: eleven at July 04, 2013 12:01 PM (fsLdt)

252 I love Indian food!!!

Oh. Not Native American. Never mind.

Posted by: grizzly bear at July 04, 2013 12:01 PM (9+vDU)

253 I think back in the WWII-era, men were like 150lbs. And yet they ate lard, toast, eggs, and bacon for breakfast *** But they had to raise and slaughter the pigs and chickens, collect the eggs, maintain the homestead. Today we eat like that and sit on our asses in front of a computer all day.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:01 PM (jjvz+)

254 You're really picking your friends today Ben.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 12:01 PM (B3M7r)

255 Texas went to war to stamp out the scourge of eastern North Carolina yellow (?) barbecue, which is an abomination before The Lord.
So there. Posted by: Mr. Dave
---------------

First of all. It ain't yellow. You are confusing us with SC barbecue, where the other half of my kin is from.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:02 PM (4Mv1T)

256 it'll be between rural/suburbandwellers against the large urban cities. And it will be bloody.

Every large city starves within a week if the semi's stop rolling in during the early AM.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 12:03 PM (/gHaE)

257 LOL. Boxing Day is the day after Christmas in England. It's the day they boxed things up to give to the servants and tradespeople (yes. I know you were making a joke.)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 12:03 PM (EIH0+)

258 Ohio, I love Ohio. That is where all the manufacturing work my company does came from.
You know, jobs that lazy yanks wont do.

You might want to get out more. You seem stuck on dicks, ass, and dickinass.
Must be why we call you yanks.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 12:04 PM (I5Htn)

259
I think people had big breakfasts, but for lunch they'd have an apple and a slice of cheese. And then eat supper and take a wake or fix the ice box.

Plus, they had to crank those telephones.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 12:05 PM (8dspl)

260 Fight! Fight! Why is everyplace just like High School?

Posted by: ALH at July 04, 2013 12:05 PM (2mYi1)

261 God keep the fallen on both sides, and grant that should the union break again it be a peaceful one.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:06 PM (LRFds)

262 It's a national holiday in Canada too, FS.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at July 04, 2013 12:06 PM (9+vDU)

263

Texas went to war to stamp out the scourge of eastern North Carolina yellow (?) barbecue, which is an abomination before The Lord.

So there.
Posted by: Mr. Dave

---------------------------------------------------------

TX BBQ depends on too much beef cuts that we trim out from the bone to make hamburger. I prefer pork, myself.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:06 PM (MtdOz)

264 NASCAR should add jumps and loop-de-loops to spice things up.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:06 PM (ZPrif)

265 I am enjoying the back and forth arguments about Lincoln and the war. I am fairly ignorant of history as well, so um... ...so that's all I guess. Happy 4th!

Posted by: Eaton Cox at July 04, 2013 12:07 PM (QCc6B)

266 Every large city starves within a week if the semi's stop rolling in during the early AM. Posted by: Purp at July 04, 2013 04:03 PM (/gHaE) See, this kind of talk, as much as I love it, makes me think of my ancestors talking about how one Confederate could outfight a dozen Yankees, etc. The Feds will keep the cities going, no? Or will it be so chaotic that they just end up killing each other?

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:07 PM (2/T/u)

267 Just thought I'd point out that none of you dumbasses fought in the Civil War. None of you have ever known anyone who's fought in the Civil War. Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 03:47 PM (CJjw5) I've never owned any slaves, either, nor have I known anyone who has. Now that we have that straight, will you refrain from applauding the murder of anyone who asserts his independence? Or is the whole idea of a voluntary union just too intolerable to you?

Posted by: Phinn at July 04, 2013 12:07 PM (7A2Iv)

268 233 Tami,

sounds like a good idea for a pilot....

of course in the wrong municipality it'd also get you arrested probably.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:07 PM (LRFds)

269 Not without the consent of all parties to the agreement. They didn't have that. Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 03:04 PM (lr3d7) 1) That wasn't the argument. The argument was 'states are not allowed to secede - ever'. 2) Where does it say that you can't secede without the consent of all parties? That was something made up by the Union. 3) If I can vountarily join, then I can vountarily leave. To disallow me to leave is to violate my rights and make me a slave. Essentially, there is no state because the Federal Government has ultimate power over it, which is what the US Constitution was meant to prevent. States SHOULD be allowed to secede peacefully. The US is a UNION of States that already existed, not a country first that then created political boundaries internally and named them states.

Posted by: blindside at July 04, 2013 12:08 PM (x7g7t)

270 I like all BBQ. But I have to admit the SC mustard BBQ is an exception. I did try it. Can't get past the mustard.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:08 PM (ZPrif)

271 Now ask yourself why you are not at work today tard?

I distinctly heard an unspoken "boy", in place of "tard".

Posted by: Maureen Dowd at July 04, 2013 12:08 PM (uPbpg)

272 Also important to note that the South started the Civil War. You start a fight and you get beat, you don't have much room to complain.

Posted by: blaster at July 04, 2013 12:09 PM (c28BI)

273 Tammy, check your email.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:09 PM (lr3d7)

274 264 NASCAR should add jumps and loop-de-loops to spice things up. Make the track a figure-8. Hellooooo?

Posted by: Phinn at July 04, 2013 12:09 PM (7A2Iv)

275 223 Herr Morgenholz,

I'm an Ohioan who had family in the Ohio Volunteer Cavalry.

I also have decided on a long enough timeline that absent the opprobrium of chattel slavery I have no problem with secession.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:09 PM (LRFds)

276 I'm also celebrating that my intelligent, interesting but really grumpy 13 year kid who has an answer for everything and who hates camp is AT camp and not home with Mom and Dad and engaging in his own civil war with his. If he's grumpy, and scowling other people are having to deal with you. "Free at least. Free at last. Thank God Almighty I am free at last" (Well until the 13th when he comes home.)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 12:10 PM (EIH0+)

277 Still wonder what my great-whatever-grandfather thought. Immigrate to the US in the 1850s from Germany only to find himself fighting as part of a Louisiana unit in the Civil War.
Posted by: Anna Puma
--------------

My g-grandfather immigrated in 1863 from Yorkshire, England, joined the 29th Regiment, Michigan Infantry in 1864. Mustered out at Murfreesboro, TN in May of '65. Is buried at Cave Hill National Cemetery near Louisville

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:10 PM (aDwsi)

278 "Every large city starves within a week if the semi's stop rolling in during the early AM."

A woman who lived in our neighborhood when I was a kid had, when she was a kid, personally experienced the famine conditions in occupied Europe in the middle 1940s.

She kept at all times one full year worth of food for everyone in her household and thought anyone who did not was clinically insane. Once you've lived through that kind of hunger, it shapes how you lead all the rest of your life.

I have a feeling the old-school, true-to-form LDS who also follow that rule of a year's stored supplies are going to come through the Burning Times okay.

The rest of America, not so much. In EBT land, where people might have one box of pizza rolls in the freezer, it's going to be really ugly really fast if the food production and distribution system takes a hit. Or the financial and network systems that enable the EBT.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 12:10 PM (gqT4g)

279 Every time I hear the word Yankees I always think of Magwha in "Last of the Mohicans", "Yenghis, May the fleas of a thousand camels infest you. I'm going to Kan-Tuck-Eee".

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 12:10 PM (B38OD)

280 269 Blindside,

If the Constitution was the cessation of State sovereignty I cannot reconcile the Xth amendment being needed at all.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:10 PM (LRFds)

281 Meant "own Civil War with us".

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 12:10 PM (EIH0+)

282

>>> Plus, they had to crank those telephones.

Not to mention the bustles. Lotta work getting under those things.

Posted by: garrett at July 04, 2013 12:11 PM (VI69J)

283 Yeah, in societal breakdown the cities tend to do better. At least the cities where the ruling class lives. Ruling class doesn't want riots next door. So they'll take whatever food and money is available to pay the security forces to keep order where they live. Often the best place to live when society breaks down is as close to the ruling class as possible. And not where they work -- where they and their family sleep. That is where they are going to pay the security forces to keep order the most.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:12 PM (ZPrif)

284 As I understand it, before the civil war, an individual identified himself usually only as a citizen of a particular state. Only after the war, did people state regularly that they were US citizens.

Posted by: another joe at July 04, 2013 12:12 PM (Edtki)

285 Boxing Day is a National holiday in Canada? I guess that's because you were a dominion once.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 12:13 PM (EIH0+)

286 266 Tammy sans Thor,

Ma'am, I worked logistics. We can't control the lines in an area of two countries together roughly the size of Texas and a little left over. You're gonna keep the entire interstate system open?

"good luck"

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:13 PM (LRFds)

287 The Feds will keep the cities going, no? Or will it be so chaotic that they just end up killing each other?

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 04:07 PM (2/T/u)

--------------------------------------------------

Feds couldn't do it if the roads were blocked. And I'd be laughing my ass off if they tried to support these cities by air.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:13 PM (MtdOz)

288 Jeff ,replace Civil with Revolutionary.
Now ask yourself why you are not at work today tard?

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 03:58 PM (I5Htn)

-------------------

At work right now, dickbasket.

Posted by: Wehrmacht on the way to the Eastern Front at July 04, 2013 12:13 PM (CJjw5)

289 NASCAR should add jumps and loop-de-loops to spice things up. Posted by: Flatbush Joe
-------------------

I think each driver should be supplied with a cold case of beer. Some point scoring method worked out to reward quantity consumed. Also..., bonus points for beaning some guy behind/beside you with an empty can..., points deducted if the can is full.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:15 PM (aDwsi)

290 Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 04:04 PM (I5Htn)

It's easy to talk tough.

But...don't ever forget that the Union kicked the shit out of the Confederacy.

And to top it off, Sherman put you all in your place, on your knees in the dust, watching Union soldiers destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at July 04, 2013 12:15 PM (WW8xK)

291 The White House ‏@whitehouse 3h Happy Fourth of July http://t.co/o3MYIWBjzl

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:15 PM (jjvz+)

292

Fuck your idiotic "when did you stop beating your wife" setup, Phinn.

Like I stopped.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:15 PM (CJjw5)

293
Well, then.

This was a nice break from arguing the Zimmerman case, wasn't it.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 12:16 PM (vanqS)

294

Purp which is what Grant did. Kept throwing bodies until the other side ran out...

-------------

Not exactly. Bruce Catton talks about Grant's strategy in the last book of his Army of the Potomac trilogy (A Stillness at Appamatox), and Grant's strategy appears to have consistently been to attempt to turn Lee's flank. Thus the frequent rapid marches to the west; Grant was attempting to get to the next spot where he could stage a deep penetration of the South toward Richmond, and more importantly get there before Lee. Doing so would have essentially put his army on Lee's left flank. But because Lee was basically defending the inside of a curved front, Lee always had less distance to travel, which meant that he could reach the destination location more quickly than Grant once he figured out where Grant was heading next. iirc, Grant almost pulled it off at least once or twice, but whenever that seemed likely to happen, one of his corps commanders would invariably screw things up (and promptly get relieved as a result). The battles would then usually erupt as the lead units of Grant's army would probe forward to determine whether Lee's troops had managed to get into a blocking position yet (which they invariably did, albeit sometimes by the skin of their teeth), and then escalate as both armies fed arriving units into the resulting battle. The initial battle would be fought, both armies would hurt each other, and Grant would then decide whether to settle into a protracted stay at the battlefield, or pick up and move the army West again.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:16 PM (Quo7C)

295 "The Feds will keep the cities going, no?"

I have predicted before that Fedzilla will do everything possible to keep the cities going, because that's the classic playbook of the left.

Look at how it worked in the USSR. They brutally starved the countryside to feed the cities, because the Bolsheviks' power base was among the urban proles, and those country dwellers were annoyingly independent of centralized authority.

In the modern US context, the thing that's going to get vacuumed out of the countryside even more than food is going to be fuel. Anyone who lives rural or who plans to bug out to a rural area had better have a plan to get by for a while without gasoline or diesel or propane, because there isn't going to be any in bug-out land. It will all have been confiscated and diverted.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 12:16 PM (gqT4g)

296

256...Every large city starves within a week if the semi's stop rolling in during the early AM.

If a large city loses its electricity...the meltdown would happen even sooner.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Rural areas can survive for a long time without electricity.

They have water wells and septic tanks...and so the danger of disease is not there, not like in a big city.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 12:17 PM (XWSNs)

297 "Free at least. Free at last. Thank God Almighty I am free at last" (Well until the 13th when he comes home.) Posted by: FenelonSpoke
----------------------------

When my oldest was 17 and driving us around the bend I'd look him in the eye and rap my finger on the face of my wrist watch and say,
"SO WHEN DID YOU SAY YOU'RE MOVING OUT?"

I invited him to leave weekly. A man can only take so much.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:17 PM (4Mv1T)

298 A group of colonies once, FS, now a self-governing Dominion taken from Psalm 72:8, "He shall have dominion from sea unto sea."

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at July 04, 2013 12:18 PM (9+vDU)

299 I did a Bing Map of Arlington National Cemetery. What was interesting at aerial view you see the visitors watching the sentry. At bird's eye view their is nobody around but you can barley make out the lone sentry. That got to me.

Posted by: YIKES! at July 04, 2013 12:18 PM (mETGQ)

300 Gettysburg is absolutely haunted. You can FEEL it there, 150 years later. There is a stillness, then an indescribable heaviness that just overwhelms you. Regardless your opinions on "ghosts" or "spirits", the battle has literally scarred the earth for eternity. At least they don't watch you fap, and why would you be fapping at Gettysburg, anyway?

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:18 PM (j5Ghq)

301

Every large city starves within a week if the semi's stop rolling in during the early AM.

--------------

When I was on my mission, I spoke to a woman who described Washington State when Mt. St. Helens erupted in the '80s. No trucks or trains could get through while the ash cloud was in the air. She said that the first two things that disappeared off of store shelves were beer and potato chips.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:19 PM (Quo7C)

302 But...don't ever forget that the Union kicked the shit out of the Confederacy.

And to top it off, Sherman put you all in your place, on your knees in the dust, watching Union soldiers destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
---------------------------

Why don't you just make fun of his wee wee instead of pissing of the rest of the Morons who have thus far managed to stay out of this idiotic debate.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:20 PM (4Mv1T)

303 OT:

When in the Course of human Events...

More: http://politicalhat.com/?p=2607

Not OT. I'll be reading it aloud today.

Thanks for posting it.

Posted by: fluffy at July 04, 2013 12:20 PM (z9HTb)

304 When my oldest was 17 and driving us around the bend I'd look him in the eye and rap my finger on the face of my wrist watch and say, "SO WHEN DID YOU SAY YOU'RE MOVING OUT?" I invited him to leave weekly. A man can only take so much. *** At 17 my daughter informed me that I would soon no longer be able to tell her what to do; That she would be free to do what she liked. I informed her that at 18 I was no longer legally nor ethically obligated to provide support for a snot-nosed adult that threw my good graces back in my face. That was the last I heard of it.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:21 PM (jjvz+)

305 torquewrench -- re post-war Europe. It was horrible mess, much worse than people here know. Indescribable really. Recommended read 'End Game, 1945', a terrific, well documented account of the immediate post-war situation
http://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/0316035998/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:21 PM (aDwsi)

306 In the modern US context, the thing that's going to get vacuumed out of the countryside even more than food is going to be fuel. Anyone who lives rural or who plans to bug out to a rural area had better have a plan to get by for a while without gasoline or diesel or propane, because there isn't going to be any in bug-out land. It will all have been confiscated and diverted.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 04:16 PM (gqT4g)

----------------------------------------------------

I live in OK. We'll be fine. Also TX. And I'm sure both of our states will be more than willing to share if other states join the cause.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:21 PM (MtdOz)

307 Way to step up the dickery there CharlieBrown. Nice perfect score on the asshole-meter.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:21 PM (ZPrif)

308 She said that the first two things that disappeared off of store shelves were beer and potato chips.
Thus my importer-exporter idea. And to think that Jeff laughed at me!

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at July 04, 2013 12:22 PM (9+vDU)

309

2) Where does it say that you can't secede without the consent of all parties?

---------------------

Texas v. White, 1869

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:22 PM (CJjw5)

310 "And to top it off, Sherman put you all in your place, on your knees in the dust, watching Union soldiers destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that."

My hobby: changing names and labels around to see how statements then sound.

"And to top it off, Stalin put you all in your place, on your knees in the dust, watching Soviet soldiers destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that."

Might makes right! That's the principle being celebrated.

And if you disagree with that principle, why, you're just chewing sour grapes because you lost.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 12:23 PM (gqT4g)

311

1) That wasn't the argument. The argument was 'states are not allowed to secede - ever'.

The argument was that States cannot unilaterally secede.

2) Where does it say that you can't secede without the consent of all parties? That was something made up by the Union.

Basic fucking logic. Every government fundamentally has to have the ability to enforce decisions within it's borders. If there is no way to maintain the Union, and no penalties for withdrawl from the contract, then no state has an incentive to stay in whenever things don't go their way. "Taking my toys and going home" works for children, not for grown men and legitimate governments.

3) If I can vountarily join, then I can vountarily leave. To disallow me to leave is to violate my rights and make me a slave. Essentially, there is no state because the Federal Government has ultimate power over it, which is what the US Constitution was meant to prevent.

Bullshit. There are plenty times where you can voluntarily join but cannot choose to leave anytime you want. The military is a perfect example. I can't simply decide that I no longer want to serve because my commander has just given me a suicidal order. The South joined the Union in exchange for certain benefits. One of the costs of those benefits is that they lost some of their autonomy and agreed to accept as binding decisions by the national government

States SHOULD be allowed to secede peacefully.
The US is a UNION of States that already existed, not a country first that then created political boundaries internally and named them states.

There is a way for states to secede: it's called a constitutional convention. Yes, the states came first, but by joining the Union they gave up certain rights in order to gain the benefits of political union.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:23 PM (lr3d7)

312 watching Union soldiers destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at July 04, 2013 04:15 PM (WW8xK) Except he didn't. The land is still there, my people were on it before Sherman and are on it still. 150 years later, we're still mouthing off on message boards, misguided though we may be, so you can't say he killed our spirits, either. Yankees invading our cities now, leaving the mess they made of their own land and cities and culture, will hurt us worse than Sherman ever did, even though his initial wound was deep. My people are still here, still proud, still extremely leary of a controlling Federal govt. You'll come around eventually, CBD!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:23 PM (2/T/u)

313 I thought the Civil War was fought to free the slaves. But thankfully I've now learned the goal was to humiliate the South and grind them into the dirt where they belong like the vermin they are. Thanks Senor Dildo!

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:24 PM (ZPrif)

314 Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 04:20 PM (4Mv1T)

I am just yanking his chain. That was not intended for the Moron's just one moron in particular.

I have tremendous respect for the men of the Confederacy, and they deserve every honor.

It was an ugly war, and the troll's joy in Union deaths is unseemly.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at July 04, 2013 12:24 PM (WW8xK)

315

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 04:18 PM (j5Ghq)

CAC! ...What the fuck is going on with Scott Walker?

He's spouting the same bullshit talking points as Rubio-Shummer-McCain, and sounds like he's all *for* this pos Amnesty Bill.

I'm bummed about it.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 12:25 PM (XWSNs)

316 Pig Pen welcome! Keep the attitude for the remaining hour of your stay. It's amusing.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 12:25 PM (B3M7r)

317 Gettysburg is absolutely haunted. You can FEEL it there, 150 years later. There is a stillness, then an indescribable heaviness that just overwhelms you. Regardless your opinions on "ghosts" or "spirits", the battle has literally scarred the earth for eternity. *** I left a church there and read a marker dedicated to a woman who lived right across the street. She had left her family that morning to tend to the wounded in the church and when she left that afternoon, looked across to her own front door which was covered in blood. She thought for sure that her family was dead but instead found that they, too, had been tending to the wounded all day. I sat on those steps, staring at her doorway and I swear I could feel her panic and pain. It IS a haunting, if not haunted, place.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:25 PM (jjvz+)

318 Quebec was allowed to vote on secession.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:25 PM (ZPrif)

319 My hobby: changing names and labels around to see how statements then sound.

Let me try one!

"And to top it off, Obama put you all in your place, on your knees in the dust, watching the EPA/IRS/ATF/NSA destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that."

Posted by: Some Guy at July 04, 2013 12:25 PM (uPbpg)

320 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 04:21 PM (jjvz+) You go, girl! Did that improve her attitude a little??

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:26 PM (2/T/u)

321 When my oldest was 17 and driving us around the bend I'd look him in the eye and rap my finger on the face of my wrist watch and say,
"SO WHEN DID YOU SAY YOU'RE MOVING OUT?"

I invited him to leave weekly. A man can only take so much.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 04:17 PM (4Mv1T)

--------------------------------------------------------

The day of my 18th birthday, my parents woke me up and said, "We're moving. We don't know where you're going to go". (Just kidding. And old family joke)

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:26 PM (MtdOz)

322 Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 04:23 PM (gqT4g)
Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 04:23 PM (2/T/u)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 04:24 PM (ZPrif)

Hyperbole to yank Big Ben's chain.

I thought it was obvious, but it wasn't.

My apologies....no offense intended.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at July 04, 2013 12:27 PM (WW8xK)

323 Hey, that switching thing sounds like fun.

President Obama: My dog has no nose!!!
LIVs: How does he smell?
President Obama: Delicious!!!

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at July 04, 2013 12:27 PM (9+vDU)

324 CAC! ...What the fuck is going on with Scott Walker?
He's spouting the same bullshit talking points as Rubio-Shummer-McCain, and sounds like he's all *for* this pos Amnesty Bill.

I'm bummed about it.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 04:25 PM (XWSNs)

Yeah, CAC. What up with Walker?

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 12:27 PM (UOjzE)

325 It's easy to talk tough.

But...don't ever forget that the Union kicked the shit out of the Confederacy.

And to top it off, Sherman put you all in your place, on your knees in the dust, watching Union soldiers destroy your land and your culture, and no amount of talk will ever change that.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo

Nobody is talking tough. Trying to make the civil war something it wasn't gets old. Too many do not know history.
Our land seems to be doing fine, it grows enough for us and a vast portion of the US.
If by culture, you mean slavery, then yes, Thank God it was destroyed.

But since I was not there your post should read.
Sherman put "them" all in "their" place, on "their" knees..
Union soldier's destroy "their" land and "their" culture...

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 12:27 PM (I5Htn)

326

Ma'am, I worked logistics. We can't control the lines in an area of two countries together roughly the size of Texas and a little left over. You're gonna keep the entire interstate system open?

This is why I laughed at that asshole's column from a few weeks ago, talking about how the military would crush any insurgency. They can't control an area the size of Texas, but somehow they're going to control the Midwest and Western states? Especially since with a single platoon I can cut off some of the key routes through the Rocky Mountains.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:28 PM (lr3d7)

327

CAC! ...What the fuck is going on with Scott Walker?
He's spouting the same bullshit talking points as Rubio-Shummer-McCain, and sounds like he's all *for* this pos Amnesty Bill.

I'm bummed about it.

-----------------

NRO was talking about this yesterday, iirc. I didn't mention it because a quick glance at the article's summary indicated that whoever wrote it is in favor of amnesty (NRO has writers on both sides of the issue).

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:28 PM (Quo7C)

328 apology accepted. Sorry if cursed too much as well. I really am trying to curse less and be less of an asshole. I keep failing.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:28 PM (ZPrif)

329 CAC! ...What the fuck is going on with Scott Walker? He's spouting the same bullshit talking points as Rubio-Shummer-McCain, and sounds like he's all *for* this pos Amnesty Bill. I'm bummed about it. Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 04:25 PM (XWSNs) Er, instead of reading Tepid Air, or the half-assed writeup, see the video where they asked him an extremely nebulous question and he answered it. That then became SCOTT WALKER HUGS RUBIO when he's been critical of the approach to reforming the immigration system. I have little issue with what he actually said. I do have issue with hacks then lumping him right in with the RINO pile. He's done far, far too many things in Wisconsin to be put in a bucket with Christie, Rubio and Jeb Bush. His spokesperson also issued a statement and linking the actual video of the meeting to reinforce that he has NOT endorsed the bill.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:29 PM (j5Ghq)

330 309 Empire of Jeff,

Yeah 4 years after a secession definitely an unbiased time.

I'm reminded of Kelo Jeff, the notion that the state could invoke eminent domain solely to resell land for tax increase must have been so inherently obvious it took 227 or so years to get around to.

If one wants to grasp why the nation is smoldering, one need not look much further than SCotUS.

I'll ask again if the States surrendered their sovereignty in totality why is there a Xth amendment?

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:29 PM (LRFds)

331 humiliate the South and grind them into the dirt where they belong like the vermin they are. Hah, if it weren't for the South, this country would have been Communist a long time ago. Funny how everything has come full circle.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:29 PM (2/T/u)

332 I can cut off some of the key routes through the Rocky Mountains.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 04:28 PM (lr3d7)

How many bridges brought down would it take to bring everything to a screeching halt?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at July 04, 2013 12:29 PM (WW8xK)

333 Tammy, you GO girl.

Great Grand Dad had to evacuate the family home on the Cape Fear River in NC just ahead of Sherman. The 1830 house is still standing and occupied by the family that bought it from us 1900. I have furniture from that house in my living room, and Great Grand Dad's red leather bound "Life of Christ" signed by him in 1861 and it sitting on my den bookshelf.

And we still make BBQ, and 'shine, and say y'all.

I'd say our culture is pretty much intact.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:29 PM (4Mv1T)

334

Can we talk about something less contentious? How about pubic hair grooming? I'll start: it's yucky and all women should be clean shaven.

*Runs*

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:30 PM (lr3d7)

335 "Rural areas can survive for a long time without electricity. They have water wells and septic tanks...and so the danger of disease is not there, not like in a big city."

I know several rural dwellers who have electrically driven lift pumps to get the water out of the well. And similar pumps to get the sewage to a septic tank that was sited for convenience rather than gravity feedability.

When I ask how they'll get by when the electricity goes out, they look at me and say, "We'll fire up the diesel generator, dumbass," in response to my incredibly obvious question.

I then ask where their private diesel refinery is. And how long they expect to keep a healthy viable homestead operating if they don't have one of those and if the pipelines and tanker trucks stop delivering. Guess what? That's not quite so obvious a question.

Typically these people have tractor tanks and such that they can tap, but they all would be hurting bad within a few weeks as their on-hand supplies ran dry.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 12:30 PM (gqT4g)

336 Quebec was allowed to vote on secession. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 04:25 PM (ZPrif) "Secession" was really, "We'd like to keep a bunch of the political and economic benefits of being Canadian while calling ourselves sovereign. All subject to negotiation, of course."

Posted by: Vendette at July 04, 2013 12:30 PM (d+fT0)

337 When you favor amnesty, and you write an article, you're inclined to take anything as a hint of siding with you. Hence, the latest flack. Perry got shit for his "have a heart" comment which Romney of all people used against him. That his spokesman linked the video immediately following the OMGZ AMNESTY shows he's not in the same pile.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:30 PM (j5Ghq)

338 You go, girl! Did that improve her attitude a little?? *** A little, for a little while. She was a good kid but it was just the two of us in the house and her teenage hormones and my menopausal hormones made for a very tense few years.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:31 PM (jjvz+)

339 318 Flatbush Joe,

Correct. Belgium and Holland split peacefully.

There is no reason NY and CA should be allowed to try to undermine other state's ability to provide for themselves via the Federal superstate.

The willful undermining of our borders in the form of sanctuary cities and then pushing for amnesty is a causus belli IMHO.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:32 PM (LRFds)

340 Yeah 4 years after a secession definitely an unbiased time.

I'm reminded of Kelo Jeff, the notion that the state could invoke eminent domain solely to resell land for tax increase must have been so inherently obvious it took 227 or so years to get around to.

If one wants to grasp why the nation is smoldering, one need not look much further than SCotUS.

I'll ask again if the States surrendered their sovereignty in totality why is there a Xth amendment?

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 04:29 PM (LRFds)

-----------------------

Keep arguing that the sky is in fact yellow. I'll just keep motoring along in Reality Land, where unilateral secession is not permissible under our Constitution, as confirmed by the Supreme Court.

Have fun with that totally pointless "thought" exercise.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:32 PM (CJjw5)

341 This is the whiteboard sign I out out today. The sign was festooned with a red, white and blue sparkly banner and a little flag and it said, "Please pray for America. The country needs it."

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at July 04, 2013 12:32 PM (EIH0+)

342 @314 Oops. Sorry. I was busily composing my post @333 and didn't see yours. I thought that was a little over the top, even for you.

*shakes hands*

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:32 PM (4Mv1T)

343 States Rights? Bwahahahahah. That was settled years ago. There is no such thing. Get used to it cracka.

Posted by: Eric Holder at July 04, 2013 12:32 PM (aDwsi)

344
Er, instead of reading Tepid Air, or the half-assed writeup, see the video where they asked him an extremely nebulous question and he answered it. That then became SCOTT WALKER HUGS RUBIO when he's been critical of the approach to reforming the immigration system. I have little issue with what he actually said. I do have issue with hacks then lumping him right in with the RINO pile. He's done far, far too many things in Wisconsin to be put in a bucket with Christie, Rubio and Jeb Bush. His spokesperson also issued a statement and linking the actual video of the meeting to reinforce that he has NOT endorsed the bill.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 04:29 PM (j5Ghq)

Ok, good to hear. A post clearing up his stance might be useful.

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 12:32 PM (UOjzE)

345 My apologies....no offense intended. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at July 04, 2013 04:27 PM (WW8xK) Oh, you! No need to apologize, we knew who you were talking to. Besides, winners get to gloat, that's just the way it is!

I fucking detest Sherman, though. (Georgia native, don't you know!)

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:33 PM (2/T/u)

346 335 Torquewrench,

and the cities better have cows in the closet my friend....

my grandmother warned me if the collectivist bastards ever came for my property to burn it first and head for the hills...

The cities may want to rethink the notion that the rural areas can be fucked over with impunity.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:34 PM (LRFds)

347 "The South joined the Union in exchange for certain benefits. One of the costs of those benefits is that they lost some of their autonomy and agreed to accept as binding decisions by the national government"

And yet there is no mention whatsoever of thus permanently binding the States to the Union in that inconvenient document, the Constitution. Gee whiz.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 12:34 PM (gqT4g)

348 It is rare that states secede without bloodshed. Czechs and Slovaks recently. Amazingly the ex-Soviet states as well was mostly peaceful. Yugloslavia -- lots of bloodshed. South Sudan - bloodshed. East Timor - bloodshed. Eritrea -- bloodshed And the US let a bunch of pacific islands become their own countries without bloodshed - Palau, etc.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:34 PM (ZPrif)

349 TR -- You apparently missed the comment (not by CBD) about E. NC barbecue a while back. I'm thinking you might be wearing a bandolier now if you had read it. :-)

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:35 PM (aDwsi)

350 Typically these people have tractor tanks and such that they can tap, but they all would be hurting bad within a few weeks as their on-hand supplies ran dry.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 04:30 PM (gqT4g)

----------------------

Indoor plumbing is not really compatible with true self-sufficiency. You'd have to dig yourself an outhouse style latrine and might as well turn the bathrooms into closets or storage.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:35 PM (CJjw5)

351 Ok, good to hear. A post clearing up his stance might be useful. Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 04:32 PM (UOjzE) The biggest give away is the lack of a single QUOTE in which he expressly says "I support the Senate bill". It doesn't exist because it isn't what he said. But the pro-amnesty folk are looking at whatever they can to get the GOP to go along, particularly rising stars within the party who have actually GOVERNED conservatively.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:35 PM (j5Ghq)

352 I'm reminded of Kelo Jeff,... *** And, finally, my blood is surging.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:36 PM (jjvz+)

353 Having lived and traveled from Fairbanks to Orlando, Maui to Boston, I have found good folks living everywhere.
Actually, by sheer population there are more good ol boys in PA, or Ohio than here in OK.
It is kinda sad that in the sorry state we are in as a country, we are still the greatest show on earth.
If there was someplace better, I would have moved already.
God bless America, She needs it more than ever.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 12:36 PM (I5Htn)

354 Er, instead of reading Tepid Air, or the half-assed writeup, see the video where they asked him an extremely nebulous question and he answered it. That then became SCOTT WALKER HUGS RUBIO when he's been critical of the approach to reforming the immigration system. I have little issue with what he actually said. I do have issue with hacks then lumping him right in with the RINO pile. He's done far, far too many things in Wisconsin to be put in a bucket with Christie, Rubio and Jeb Bush. His spokesperson also issued a statement and linking the actual video of the meeting to reinforce that he has NOT endorsed the bill.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 04:29 PM (j5Ghq)

-------------------------------------------------

And besides. When was the last time conservatives trusted anything out of the NRO. Doesn't that douchebag Kristal write for them? "Nuff' said.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:37 PM (MtdOz)

355 I'm thinking you might be wearing a bandolier now if you had read it. :-)
---------------------

Yea, I saw it. Amateurs.

I see you appointed me the "BBQ Sargent at Arms".

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:37 PM (4Mv1T)

356 I like NRO. Especially Jonah Goldberg. He's funny.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:38 PM (ZPrif)

357 352 NDH,

Correct, that the 9 fuckers in black take a chainsaw to original intent by magicking up "the way they really wanted it" should shock no one...

if I had Ace's time machine I'd go back and pistol whip Justice John Marshall for about 3 days.

I'd apologize afterwards, he was a great man most of the founding generation were but his hail mary is what enabled this timebomb we're sitting on watching the bill of rights get devoured by.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:38 PM (LRFds)

358 Empire Jeff --- Speaking of which, genuine GI latrines available, unused :
http://www.sciplus.com/p/PORTABLE-2SEAT-ARMY-LATRINE_50143

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:38 PM (aDwsi)

359 I'd say our culture is pretty much intact. Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 04:29 PM (4Mv1T) Yea, see, they may have run the uppity plantation owners to the ground, but us damn hillbillies can't be tamed. Cain't starve us out, cain't make us run.... Ever. I may die where I stand, but I'll go down fighting. Give up and/or run ain't in my vocabulary.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:38 PM (2/T/u)

360

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 04:29 PM (j5Ghq)

I haven't read those articles, CAC.

What I'm talking about, is this video...where he says:

"If we had a saner immigration system we probably wouldnÂ’t need border security"

He also says he's okay with "a path to citizenship" for illegals.

Link to the video, in my nic. It goes to Right Scoop.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 12:38 PM (XWSNs)

361

And besides. When was the last time conservatives trusted anything out of the NRO. Doesn't that douchebag Kristal write for them? "Nuff' said.

----------------

iirc, he's at The Weekly Standard.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:39 PM (Quo7C)

362 353 Big Ben,

God bless good Americans who revere liberty.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:39 PM (LRFds)

363 Indoor plumbing is not really compatible with true self-sufficiency. You'd have to dig yourself an outhouse style latrine and might as well turn the bathrooms into closets or storage.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:35 PM (CJjw5)

----------------------------------------------

Note to self: Stock up on lime and keep the old phone books.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:39 PM (MtdOz)

364 NDH, that particular combination of hormones is...... awe inspiring. And scary as shit! You can kind of see how married men with daughters and wives of a certain age might well need to seek refuge in a cemetery now and then!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:40 PM (2/T/u)

365 I see you appointed me the "BBQ Sargent at Arms".

Posted by: Tobacco Road
------------

For the Eastern Division only...., because vinegar

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:40 PM (aDwsi)

366 By the way... anyone ever wonder why there are practically zero video games set in the Civil War? (Outside of strategy). Why is that? Is having to stay in formation a drag on the gameplay?

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 12:41 PM (UOjzE)

367 Rural areas can survive for a long time without electricity.
They have water wells and septic tanks...Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 04:17 PM (XWSNs) My well delivers water by means of a pump which requires electricity.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at July 04, 2013 12:41 PM (OgQih)

368 Note to self: Stock up on lime and keep the old phone books. Posted by: Soona
------------

As provided to Jeff a moment ago:
http://www.sciplus.com/p/PORTABLE-2SEAT-ARMY-LATRINE_50143

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:42 PM (aDwsi)

369

genuine GI latrines available, unused :

--------------------------

Man, screw that. I never used hardstand latrines if I could avoid it. I'm a cat-hole man.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:42 PM (CJjw5)

370 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:35 PM (CJjw5 My uncle is digging me an outhouse this Fall! Everyone around is here is doing it...it's almost like they sense something coming.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:42 PM (2/T/u)

371

And besides. When was the last time conservatives trusted anything out of the NRO. Doesn't that douchebag Kristal write for them? "Nuff' said.
----------------

iirc, he's at The Weekly Standard.

--------------

To add to what I wrote, NRO regularly features Steyn, Goldberg, Nordlinger, Sowell, Malkin, Hansen, Gallagher, and a number of others. Their editorial board sometimes endorses issues that are on the RINO side, but they also have frequent articles by people on both sides of an issue. The only real bias shown by NRO is pro-Catholic, which is perhaps unsurprising given that the magazine was started by William F. Buckley.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:43 PM (Quo7C)

372 340 Empire of Jeff,

Keep allowing SCotUS to find things that are apparently by precedent not there Jeff...

oh wait we have been....

That 3d amendment piece in the side bar should scare the shit out of people.

The Amendment in the Bill of Rights that people take the most for granted and the cocksuckers now think there is no such thing as private property anywhere.

No Jeff I may well join you. Better to live in a nation that makes no pretense at a bill of rights, or the concept of inherent rights than one who has decided that the IVY league really wrote the goddamned founding.

There is the natural law and the edicts of an unaccountable oligarchy.

I know which the founding deferred to friend.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:43 PM (LRFds)

373 Happy Independence Day moron horde.

Posted by: Misanthropic humanitarian at July 04, 2013 12:43 PM (HVff2)

374 You can kind of see how married men with daughters and wives of a certain age might well need to seek refuge in a cemetery now and then! *** Indeed.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:43 PM (jjvz+)

375 iirc, he's at The Weekly Standard.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 04:39 PM (Quo7C)

----------------------------------------------------

Yes. I stand corrected. I just googled it.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:43 PM (MtdOz)

376

...it's almost like they sense something coming.

____________

A giant shit?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:44 PM (CJjw5)

377 for the Eastern Division only...., because vinegar
Posted by: Mike Hammer
-----------------------

Yep. Like beer, scotch and tobacco it's an acquired taste for some.

And unshakeable once acquired.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:44 PM (4Mv1T)

378 And besides. When was the last time conservatives trusted anything out of the NRO. Doesn't that douchebag Kristal write for them? "Nuff' said.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 04:37 PM (MtdOz)

NRO has Andrew McCarthy who is the biggest anti-amnesty warrior there is. The guy wants to severely limit legal immigration, let alone stop illegal entries.

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 12:45 PM (UOjzE)

379
    It is inconceivable to not exhaust every effort to defend this nation.

    No matter the cost.

     If any have reached their limit, then step aside. I'll bear you no ill will. But let me to the front to fight in whatever small way possible.

      Let it burn is NOT an option.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 04, 2013 12:45 PM (SAMxH)

380 My uncle is digging me an outhouse this Fall! Everyone around is here is doing it...it's almost like they sense something coming.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 04:42 PM (2/T/u)

----------------------------------------------

Is he building the outhouse too? One holer, or two?

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:45 PM (MtdOz)

381 They can't control an area the size of Texas, but somehow they're going to control the Midwest and Western states? But what, and here is what I often wonder, if the military turns on the populace? There are well stocked bases in every state. It's not like going into a place like Iraq, where you have to start from scratch. No one EVER thinks the rank and file military will turn on the people, but it seems like it happens an awful lot.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:45 PM (2/T/u)

382 * Wrong * Not McCarthy.... its... Mark Krikorian who I was talkking about.

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 12:46 PM (UOjzE)

383

By the way... anyone ever wonder why there are practically zero video games set in the Civil War? (Outside of strategy). Why is that? Is having to stay in formation a drag on the gameplay?

---------------

Someone released an fps a few years back. iirc, it had the same name as a movie that came out at about the same time. It was panned.

The main problem with an action Civil War game is probably the weapons involved. The rifles of the time weren't even semi-automatic, and were cumbersome to reload. There was a reason why people at the time fought in formation.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:46 PM (Quo7C)

384 331 Tammy sans Thor,

If it comes to ACW version 2.0 I know which side of the fence I'll be on.

Fuck Marxism.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:46 PM (LRFds)

385 Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 04:45 PM (MtdOz) Yep, and a one seater. Some things do not need to be a shared experience.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:47 PM (2/T/u)

386 I haven't read those articles, CAC. What I'm talking about, is this video...where he says: "If we had a saner immigration system we probably wouldnÂ’t need border security" He also says he's okay with "a path to citizenship" for illegals. Link to the video, in my nic. It goes to Right Scoop. Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 04:38 PM (XWSNs) His argument about reforming it so the volume of illegal immigration would decline is along the lines of "if we made it easier to LEGALLY become a citizen we wouldn't have this problem." Naive, yeah. That means he hearts the Senate bill, which he has criticized as being 'backwards'? As for his belief in a path to citizenship for illegals eventually... Even I am for that, after we've solved every other issue first. I think his (again, naive, but he's not co-opting or endorsing a disaster like Rubio's bill) idea is that if the immigration system is fixed to the point where legal immigration is easily exceding the illegal rate, the illegal rate drops so much that a) "stopping" it is a non-issue and b) those still left out there can then get in the line. It's naive and he would need to seriously re-evaluate the thinking. But is it RINO-worthy? Considering everything else he has actually DONE, is his theory and talk enough to burn him at the stake? I'd hope we'd all be more rational than that. The more GOVERNING conservatives we toss, the closer we approach a repeat of 2012. And we all saw how great that went.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:47 PM (j5Ghq)

387 NRO has Andrew McCarthy who is the biggest anti-amnesty warrior there is. The guy wants to severely limit legal immigration, let alone stop illegal entries.

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 04:45 PM (UOjzE)

--------------------------------------

For you and others. I get it. I was thinking of the douchebags at the Weekly Standard.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:47 PM (MtdOz)

388
Of course LONE RANGER flopped, he has no super powers!

They thought they'd tap into that Pirates Of The Carribbean magic, but guess what?
The Lone Ranger isn't a pirate. He's just a guy who rides a horse. With an Injun sidekick.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 12:47 PM (GcwH1)

389 I enjoy the spectrum on the Right. I'll read NRO -- and even the dissident Right like Derbyshire that NRO expelled for thought-crime. WeeklyStandard. Commentary. HotAir. AceOfSpades. WeaselZippers. The Blaze. DailyCaller. Breitbart. Steve Sailer. GatewayPundit. Twitchy. Drudge. Telegraph(UK). Reason. Cato. FrontPage. American Thinker. InstaPundit. etc, etc. I don't have to agree with everybody on everything. And I don't check all those daily or even weekly. But occasionally look in to see what they're talking about. Repubs. Cons. Libertarians. Neocons. Paleocons. AngryCons. Alternative Right. Secular Right. Christian Right. Dissident Right. The spectrum is interesting.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:48 PM (ZPrif)

390

But what, and here is what I often wonder, if the military turns on the populace?

There are well stocked bases in every state. It's not like going into a place like Iraq, where you have to start from scratch.

1) Their families will be in the crossfire.

2) Most of those bases are a few thousand troops at most. Not enough to control any significant territory.

3) We're a lot better armed than the Iraqis or Afghanis, and the capability of a modern state to produce weapons and explosives means that you'll see crap that makes Iraq look like Disneyland.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:48 PM (lr3d7)

391

Is McCarthy the one who's rabidly pro-amnesty over there? I remember seeing frequent posts on The Corner from one side that are almost immediately followed by a post from the other side of the amnesty debate.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:48 PM (Quo7C)

392 381` Tammy sans Thor,

Military bases are essentially cities.

The other point ma'am is I have pondered on it in darker hours.

The left will allow the military a far looser RoE here than they ever did for our last 3 armed conflicts...

we are after all "the real enemy."

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:49 PM (LRFds)

393 Of course the whitehouse tweets a photo of BO and MO for the 4th.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:49 PM (jjvz+)

394

Yep, and a one seater. Some things do not need to be a shared experience.

Unless you're German. Or Richard Simmons.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (lr3d7)

395 However, I stick with my original point- he did NOT come out and endorse the amnesty bill. He has his own ideas about immigration, some smart, some awful. But ideas and responding to questions is different than declaring "OMG VOTE FOR THIS BILL, HOUSE GOP!" which is how the story has been carried.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (j5Ghq)

396 Happy 4th, Moron Circular Firing Squad!

I've got ribs in the oven I marinated overnight, that I'm going to finish on the grill and then douse them with an olive oil and lemon juice bath (with anchovies and parsley). Made these last year and everyone raved about them, and said they were the best ribs they'd ever tasted (I didn't divulge the anchovies in the bath secret).

Have a crock-pot of beans with ground beef, onions, pineapple, chili sauce, Worchestershire sauce, and dry mustard.

We're going to the annual community fireworks show, and husband was up early setting up a shelter with a buddy.

I hope everyone has a safe and happy 4th. God bless our troops.

Hope Mooch is recovering from being imprisoned again.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (lVPtV)

397

Yep, and a one seater. Some things do not need to be a shared experience.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 04:47 PM (2/T/u)

-----------------------------

I strongly disagree.

http://tinyurl.com/plgt4yg

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (CJjw5)

398 Daily reminder: Our First Lady doesn't really "celebrate" today.

Posted by: JohnKerryIsADoucheBag at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (6sqK6)

399
btw, Pirates of the Caribbean?

Awful movies. They made a fortune, though.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (ZgBZU)

400 Remind me to apologize to Herr Morgan before hunting season. I'd sure like to hunt a big Ohio buck with my bow this fall.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 12:50 PM (I5Htn)

401 388 Soothsayer,

I must have missed his anti-capitalist side in the old stories as well....

The film was decent enough as an excuse to eat some popcorn....

Depp was not as dumb as I had feared, it was just within the limits of bearable.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:51 PM (LRFds)

402 Derbyshire Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 04:48 PM (ZPrif) He was deservedly tossed for that column. Absolutely insulting.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:51 PM (j5Ghq)

403 The gaming question....games rely quite heavily on international sales, and the US Civil War is of comparatively limited interest outside the USA.

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 12:51 PM (B38OD)

404 NR and WeeklyStandard tend towards pro-amnesty. They also tend toward a certain squishness due to most of their staff living and working in the BosNYWash corridor. This is true for most media outlets -- even on the right.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:51 PM (ZPrif)

405

I strongly disagree.

http://tinyurl.com/plgt4yg

What the hell is that?!

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:51 PM (lr3d7)

406 Derbyshire's a good man.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 12:51 PM (ZPrif)

407 Hi Jane. We are planning meetup for Savannah in, perhaps, August.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (jjvz+)

408

367...My well delivers water by means of a pump which requires electricity.

Most of them do.

Which is why so many rural folks have a generator, and some fuel stored.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (XWSNs)

409 Anyways I hope everyone's 4th is going spectacularly. The weather has FINALLY improved out here, so it's down to the low 90s (from 110 earlier this week) and we have clearer skies.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (j5Ghq)

410 No one EVER thinks the rank and file military will turn on the people, but it seems like it happens an awful lot.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 04:45 PM (2/T/u)

-------------------------------------------

And this is my increasing fear. The leftists are slowly but surely turning our military into one that would not hesitate to fire on us.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (MtdOz)

411 393 NDH,

Hey they *are* the reason for leftist joy this time of year....

I intend to be just as loyal to their rule as they were to my preferred candidates.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (LRFds)

412 Yea, see, they may have run the uppity plantation owners to the ground
----------------------

Just the abolition of slavery alone ended them. No labor. Couldn't plant or harvest in the volume to which they were accustomed..

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (4Mv1T)

413

Instapundit's got a link talking about how someone discovered that your Android phone is telling Motorola an awful lot about what you do on-line with it - including password information to various websites and services.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (Quo7C)

414 Alex ( and no email from you yet, by the way; sometimes mine takes a while) that makes me feel better. I can't imagine our military turning on us, but so much stuff has come to pass that I never would have thought possible....

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (2/T/u)

415 http://tinyurl.com/plgt4yg

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:50 PM (CJjw5)

Nice bathroom, Jeff. Did you design that, or did your wife?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 12:52 PM (lVPtV)

416 Awful movies. They made a fortune, though. *** I tried to watch it, twice, but neither time could I make it past about the 20 minute mark. Obnoxious.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 12:53 PM (jjvz+)

417

He was deservedly tossed for that column.
Absolutely insulting.

I still suspect that there was more to that story than simply one column. I'm guessing he's said some things behind the scenes that made the staff uneasy.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 12:53 PM (lr3d7)

418 I know some people have drilled a second well with a hand pump.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 12:53 PM (I5Htn)

419 Derbyshire's a good man. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 04:51 PM (ZPrif) His "advice" was insulting. I doubt the goodness of a person who would tell his kids not to help my wife if they spotted her in an accident. I draw a serious line there.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:53 PM (j5Ghq)

420 What the hell is that?!

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 04:51 PM (lr3d7)

--------------

The "Love Toilet."

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:53 PM (CJjw5)

421 To add to what I wrote, NRO regularly features Steyn, Goldberg, Nordlinger, Sowell, Malkin, Hansen, Gallagher, and a number of others. Their editorial board sometimes endorses issues that are on the RINO side, but they also have frequent articles by people on both sides of an issue. The only real bias shown by NRO is pro-Catholic, which is perhaps unsurprising given that the magazine was started by William F. Buckley.
Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 04:43 PM

Well, two (Sowell and VDH) decent voices out of seven-plus ain't bad. The rest of them range from inside-baseball, conseservative-side-of-the-political-establishment tea-sippers to whiny, obsessed types. As for the Catholic bias, I think it has grown far more pronounced since the WFB days, particularly when pathetic spinster Kathryn Jean Lopez gets on one of her "Cardinal ------ was telling me the other day..." kicks.

Just because they couch everything in polysyllabic terms doesn't make them pundits, even if they think they are.

Common sense is sadly lacking among so-called conservative bloggers. Like politicians, they are seduced by The Game and overwhelmed by their own apparent celebrity status. That goes for Weakly Standard, Tepid Air and Rude State as well.

Posted by: MrScribbler at July 04, 2013 12:53 PM (/RIVS)

422 http://tinyurl.com/plgt4yg Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:50 PM (CJjw5) How can I love you and hate you so much at the same time????

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 12:54 PM (2/T/u)

423
And this is my increasing fear. The leftists are slowly but surely turning our military into one that would not hesitate to fire on us.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 04:52 PM (MtdOz)

From what I hear from our son, the Marines would never turn on their countrymen. Not too many leftists in the Corps (Corpse).

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 12:54 PM (lVPtV)

424 Jane D'oh, a kitteh for you. He appears to be done celebrating. http://tinyurl.com/lhzcme8

Posted by: Vendette at July 04, 2013 12:54 PM (d+fT0)

425 Large cities can be bought to a standstill by one thing in general ---Water. Potable Water. Without water you do not have life. You have no sanitation, ie, washing or sewage disposal. The large city would have to be evacuated in 3 days.

It is lucky that jihadis and other nutcases are more stupid than our leaders.....so far.

Posted by: Alaska Paul at July 04, 2013 12:54 PM (Ppjt8)

426 175 Has anyone mentioned thhat this was a century and a half ago? Because the small dick synddrome of the southerners here is like it happened Monday. We have current enemies to deal with people. Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 03:40 PM (B3M7r) Considering how poor my memory is it could've happened Monday. *checks body for bullet wounds*

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 04, 2013 12:55 PM (V1ZIU)

427

Well, two (Sowell and VDH) decent voices out of seven-plus ain't bad. The rest of them range from inside-baseball, conseservative-side-of-the-political-establishment tea-sippers to whiny, obsessed types. As for the Catholic bias, I think it has grown far more pronounced since the WFB days, particularly when pathetic spinster Kathryn Jean Lopez gets on one of her "Cardinal ------ was telling me the other day..." kicks.

-----------------

You don't like Steyn?

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:55 PM (Quo7C)

428 Nice bathroom, Jeff. Did you design that, or did your wife?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 04:52 PM (lVPtV)

-------------------------

I don't want to be anywhere near her when she's on the toilet. I like to pretend that she doesn't poop.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:55 PM (CJjw5)

429 I'm guessing he's said some things behind the scenes that made the staff uneasy. Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 04:53 PM (lr3d7) Duh? His role as the paleocon persisted because he had made some great work, but his personal opinions that bordered on actual racism were obvious to the staff. There was probably an unspoken agreement that if he pulled the mask off, he was gone. It was simply a matter of time. Now that he's got little time left unfortunately due to his cancer, out it came, and out he went.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:55 PM (j5Ghq)

430 423 Jane D'oh,

I also think most of the combat arms soldiers I've met of whatever persuasion would hesitate....

They used to ask straight out if we would disarm otherwise law abiding citizens.

I said no every time.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:56 PM (LRFds)

431 How can I love you and hate you so much at the same time????

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 04:54 PM (2/T/u)

---------------

It's a complicated emotion, I know.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 12:56 PM (CJjw5)

432 Slavery did not become the cause belli for the North until the war ground on for a couple years. That is when they resurrected John Brown from his grave to wave the bloody shirt for the North, the same Union that had put John Brown in that grave. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: That's pretty close to nonsence. The truth is much more complicated. Slavery was certainly no issue at all for many northerners--William Tecumseh Sherman and George B. McClellan being two prominent supporters of preserving the Union who had no use for the negro race and certainly didn't consider them worthy of shedding white men's blood over. To say nothing of all those Irish immigrants who were being drafted on the docks where they were disembarking from their sea voyage. Those micks didn't see it as their fight and much violence was directed at blacks during the New York draft riots. Most southerners, of course, held no slaves and many had no use for the institution. However, slavery figured large in the declarations of causes of some of the seceding states. Southern slave holders, like northern abolitionists, held influence way out of proportion to their numbers. The intractability of both factions made war inevitable. Slavery was not the only cause for hostilities, but it was the one issue that was never going to be smoothed over.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at July 04, 2013 12:56 PM (PwV7G)

433 btw, Pirates of the Caribbean?

Awful movies. They made a fortune, though.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 04:50 PM (ZgBZU)

----------------------------------------------

I thought they were fun and entertaining. They let me forget about the outside world for awhile. I don't go to movies to come out more depressed than when I went in. It's why I like sci-fi. It's a brief disconnect from reality.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:56 PM (MtdOz)

434 Nice bathroom, Jeff. Did you design that, or did your wife? Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 04:52 PM (lVPtV) ------------------------- I don't want to be anywhere near her when she's on the toilet. I like to pretend that she doesn't poop. Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:55 PM (CJjw5) They don't fart either.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:57 PM (j5Ghq)

435

They used to ask straight out if we would disarm otherwise law abiding citizens.

I said no every time.

-----------------

The problem becomes what happens when the law changes...

Glenn Reynolds likes to bring up the problem that it's now all but impossible to go throughout the day without breaking at least one law (usually in ignorance).

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 12:57 PM (Quo7C)

436 374 You can kind of see how married men with daughters and wives of a certain age might well need to seek refuge in a cemetery now and then!

***

Indeed.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 04:43 PM (jjvz+)

Why do men die before their wives? They want to.

Posted by: The Chicken at July 04, 2013 12:57 PM (Pr6hk)

437 428 Empire of Jeff,

You mean they do?

Damn I thought wife was powered by some sort of odd food fueled fusion reactor....

I'm gonna need to rethink some things...

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:57 PM (LRFds)

438 "The left will allow the military a far looser RoE here than they ever did for our last 3 armed conflicts... we are after all 'the real enemy.'"

There is the nub of the matter.

And that picture has been coming into more and more steady focus.

I remember having had a sudden shock of realization back in the 1990s when a veteran friend asked me,

"Doesn't it strike you as odd that it was considered unthinkable to dispatch armored vehicles in Mogadishu to protect American servicemen, because sending armor against Somali civilians would have been a 'war crime', but there was absolutely no reluctance to send armored vehicles against U.S. citizens in Waco, TX just a short time later?"

I carried no brief for the Waco wackoes, but I had to concede his point.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 04, 2013 12:57 PM (gqT4g)

439 I tried to watch it, twice, but neither time could I make it past about the 20 minute mark.

Obnoxious. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse
---------------

I found myself hoping that ~~Tinkerbell~~ Depp would get offed.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 12:58 PM (aDwsi)

440 I'm gonna need to rethink some things... Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 04:57 PM (LRFds) Some of them have a spot on the back of the knee.

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 12:59 PM (j5Ghq)

441 435 junior,

I grasp what you're saying. I always took "otherwise law abiding" to mean an inferred "living peaceably."

Regardless the Civil Service and elected class who think they are servants of the state rather than the people are turning this country into the world's largest open aired insane asylum.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 12:59 PM (LRFds)

442 424 Jane D'oh, a kitteh for you. He appears to be done celebrating.

http://tinyurl.com/lhzcme8

Posted by: Vendette at July 04, 2013 04:54 PM (d+fT0)

Thanks! I just sent that to our son, who is cooking out for his guys this weekend (and going to see the Lt. Dan Band!).

I'm pissed with the neighbor's kitty, though, who I saw jump five feet in the air and grab a red-headed woodpecker off my feeder this morning. I ran down the deck steps, barefoot, yelling, "Drop the damned bird!!111!!!" The cat flipped me off and took off.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 12:59 PM (lVPtV)

443 I plan to go see Lone Ranger tonight. After getting Fajitas for dinner (that's technically Texan food, right? Thus patriotic cuisine?)

Posted by: Serious Cat at July 04, 2013 12:59 PM (UOjzE)

444 Sidebar >RIP 3rd Amendment Police literally dragged innocent people out of their homes, shot the timid family dog with pepper balls, ransacked two separate houses and arrested them on trumped-up charges. And these public servants are identified by john doe aliases to protect their right to privacy? Vote Libertarian.

Posted by: 13times at July 04, 2013 12:59 PM (fGPLK)

445 From what I hear from our son, the Marines would never turn on their countrymen. Not too many leftists in the Corps (Corpse).

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 04:54 PM (lVPtV)

-----------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, the Marines are only a fraction of the overall military population.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 12:59 PM (MtdOz)

446

I found myself hoping that Tinkerbell Depp would get offed.

------------------

I liked the first one, aside from the virtual worship of pirates that Kiera Knightley's character engages in (but then again, it matches with our modern culture). But I didn't like the second one. I haven't seen the third or fourth one as a result.

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 01:00 PM (Quo7C)

447 440 CAC,

Heh I was going to joke it is where they plug inm...

then I realized I haven't been paying attention to the Japanese of late and that they may already in fact be making such things.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:00 PM (LRFds)

448 Why do men die before their wives? They want to.
Posted by: The Chicken
--------------------

Many are nagged to death.
Burn this post.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 01:00 PM (aDwsi)

449 444 13times,

Yup, I think it is time to consider pushing for a Constitutional Amendment eliminating sovereign immunity.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:01 PM (LRFds)

450

386...Considering everything else he has actually DONE, is his theory and talk enough to burn him at the stake?

Posted by: CAC at July 04, 2013 04:47 PM (j5Ghq)

----------

I'm not burning him at the stake, CAC.

I am just really disappointed.

We're *always* going to need Border Security, though.

So his remarks were rather bone-headed.

I hate hearing that "Our immigration system is broken" bullshit.

It was 'broken' by the very people who now want to use it's brokenness as a reason for Amnesty.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 01:01 PM (XWSNs)

451

If this country turns to civil war then I expect the military to divide into thirds between loyalists, rebels and those sitting out of the fight.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at July 04, 2013 01:01 PM (lr3d7)

452 You don't like Steyn?
Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 04:55 PM

I can tolerate occasional doses....

Posted by: MrScribbler at July 04, 2013 01:01 PM (/RIVS)

453 I don't want to be anywhere near her when she's on the toilet. I like to pretend that she doesn't poop. Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:55 PM (CJjw5) We absolutely do not poop. Or toot.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:02 PM (2/T/u)

454

The cat flipped me off and took off.

---------

So what you're saying is that the cat flipped you the bird?

/rimshot

Posted by: junior at July 04, 2013 01:02 PM (Quo7C)

455 Hey, fellow Americans!!! Happy Independence Day!

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:03 PM (8lmkt)

456 Leave my fucking deer alone Ben! True story. Couple years ago I dropped by the check station where some SC boys were shitting themselves over their 10 point. They were totally deflated whhen I called it "shootable". We grow big deer here.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 01:04 PM (B3M7r)

457 I found the Pirates of Carib movies to be surprisingly confusing for a dumb summer movie. I only half-watched them while doing other things but I was constantly confused about where they main characters were where they were going, why the were going there, and just basic plot details. I'm normally not that dense. But I was only half paying attention. but normally I can half pay attention and easily grok the basic plot.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 01:04 PM (ZPrif)

458 Peaches! Happy 4th! The Re-Enactment is over, it's safe to come in now!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:04 PM (2/T/u)

459 I'm pissed with the neighbor's kitty, though, who I saw jump five feet in the air and grab a red-headed woodpecker off my feeder this morning.

Dammit, Jane, that's awful! I mean, it's just the way critters do things, but yeesh! You know you can make like an upside down cone of whatever (chicken wire works, as does sheet tin) and tack it to the tree or post under the feeder.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:05 PM (8lmkt)

460 I don't want to be anywhere near her when she's on the toilet. I like to pretend that she doesn't poop. Posted by: Empire of Jeff at July 04, 2013 04:55 PM (CJjw5) We absolutely do not poop. Or toot. Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 05:02 PM (2/T/u) And if we happen to be in a public restroom but not moving from the stall, we're just waiting for everyone else to leave so we can have the appropriate peace and quiet in order to contemplate the meaning of life.

Posted by: Vendette at July 04, 2013 01:05 PM (d+fT0)

461 I hate hearing that "Our immigration system is broken" bullshit.
It was 'broken' by the very people who now want to use it's brokenness as a reason for Amnesty.
Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 05:01 PM

It's not "broken" at all. It is more like a portable radio that doesn't run because the batteries are down.

Charge it up so it operates as it is supposed to, and it can do the job. By "charge it up" I mean get Choom Boy and his co-conspirators the hell out of office and replace them with Americans who obey the friggin' rules, of course....

Posted by: MrScribbler at July 04, 2013 01:05 PM (/RIVS)

462 Joe, it's not you, the movie was poorly edited, I assume or they were higher than kites when they wrote it.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:06 PM (2/T/u)

463 Tammy!!!

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:06 PM (8lmkt)

464 Regarding the "comprehensive" immigration bill: If our top universities are training foreign students who can never work here, it is because they quite consciously are admitting those students, not because they will do the hard studies Americans won't do, but because. Let me assure you Americans are being turned away from those science and engneering slots, Americans fully able to handle the work, and desiring to do so. Let me assure you.

Posted by: Horatius at July 04, 2013 01:07 PM (y/M/p)

465 From what I hear from our son, the Marines would never turn on their countrymen. Not too many leftists in the Corps (Corpse). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The military is the last institution remaining on the left's long march. That why the advancement of women and gays in the military. Not that I have a prblem with either group serving in any capacity for which they are suited, but the left (correctly) considers both groups to be socially friendly elements. Affirmative action promotions for both groups and a PC atmosphere thick enought to cut with a knife will drive patriots out of the armed forces. Then we are truly done for.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at July 04, 2013 01:07 PM (PwV7G)

466 And if we happen to be in a public restroom but not moving from the stall, we're just waiting for everyone else to leave so we can have the appropriate peace and quiet in order to contemplate the meaning of life.

Oh, lordy, I would almost rather rupture myself than poo anywhere but my home potty. Short of actual dysentery, I've never been able to overcome that particular neuroses.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:07 PM (8lmkt)

467 456 Herr Morgenholz,

We also stalk our deer or wait in tree stands.

The Southern deer could stunt double for healthy dogs, and seeding the area with slat licks and corn is hardly hunting.

I used to tell the boys in Louisiana they "farmed deer."

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:08 PM (LRFds)

468 In other words, Jane, you'd better be there!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 01:08 PM (jjvz+)

469 Posted by: Vendette at July 04, 2013 05:05 PM (d+fT0) If I did poop, which of course I do not, I would certainly never do so in a public restroom. If I'm lingering in a stall, it probably has more to do with a Menstrual Emergency.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:08 PM (2/T/u)

470 Dammit, Jane, that's awful! I mean, it's just the way critters do things, but yeesh! You know you can make like an upside down cone of whatever (chicken wire works, as does sheet tin) and tack it to the tree or post under the feeder.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 05:05 PM (8lmkt)

Hon, I have a top-of-the-line feeder from Wild Birds, Unlimited, with a huge raccoon baffle. No squirrel, raccoon, possum, snake, or other critter has every been able to conquer it. That cat has skillz. The feeder is actually six feet of the ground (I said five, but I'm 5' 4" and have to reach up high to fill the feeder). That little fucker jumped straight up and snatched the bird. It's also out in the open so the birds can see predators. Perhaps Darwin was at work with the woodpecker. Sigh.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 01:08 PM (lVPtV)

471 And also, regarding the need for tech visas: let me assure you American engineers and scientists go without jobs, are not immediately sweeped up. Let me assure you.

Posted by: Horatius at July 04, 2013 01:10 PM (y/M/p)

472 No 4th fireworks for trainer this year. Took my grandson up to the SleaseSide boardwalk last year and had to shield him from rioting 'yutes' of unknown ethnicity. 65 arrested. Ain't doing that again.

Posted by: Trainer say Hi NSA at July 04, 2013 01:10 PM (49lPc)

473 I've never been able to overcome that particular neuroses. Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 05:07 PM (8lmkt) Woman, we have SO MUCH in common!

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:10 PM (2/T/u)

474 http://tinyurl.com/mdqko6y

NY Post article with cute pic

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:10 PM (LRFds)

475 I took a nap and missed this whole thread. I have some catching up to do. That interactive battlefield map is awesome.

Posted by: rickl at July 04, 2013 01:11 PM (sdi6R)

476 Dang, Jane. I had a cat like that once, the incomparable Thelma. Best kitteh ever (strictly indoors!!). She could leap straight up into the air, grab my outstretched arm with all fours and daintily eat these little dried up dead fishies. She was amazing. Got her ashes right over there on the bookcase.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:11 PM (8lmkt)

477 Sven and I are from adjoining counties. Greene and Warren . Biggest deer in N America .

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz, creepy assed Florida Cowboy at July 04, 2013 01:11 PM (B3M7r)

478

461...Posted by: MrScribbler at July 04, 2013 05:05 PM (/RIVS)

Exactly so, MrScribbler....I totally agree.

I have a big problem with showing favoritism towards a group of law-breakers.

Which is what amnesty is.

If I choose to not pay taxes...can I demand amnesty?

What about other laws?

Can we break those too, and demand amnesty?

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 01:13 PM (XWSNs)

479 The Southern deer could stunt double for healthy dogs Hey now, don't go confusing those itty bitty Texas deer with all Southern deer. I damn near hit a doe this morning that stood as high as the window in my truck.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:13 PM (2/T/u)

480 477 Herr Morgenholz,

Our farms are truly something, I will miss Ohio terribly if fate takes me away from her for all time.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:14 PM (LRFds)

481 Hon, I have a top-of-the-line feeder from Wild Birds, Unlimited, with a huge raccoon baffle. No squirrel, raccoon, possum, snake, or other critter has every been able to conquer it. That cat has skillz. The feeder is actually six feet of the ground (I said five, but I'm 5' 4" and have to reach up high to fill the feeder). That little fucker jumped straight up and snatched the bird. It's also out in the open so the birds can see predators. Perhaps Darwin was at work with the woodpecker. Sigh.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 05:08 PM (lVPtV)

-------------------------------------------------

One of my female cats is very very efficient at catching birds. She brings them into the house where she waits until I take the bird out of her mouth. Then I let it go outside where it flys off. She really doesn't harm the birds unless I'm sleeping and then only because she ends up laying on them and suffocating them.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 01:15 PM (MtdOz)

482 Ready the cannons!!

Next on The Five. Nancy Pelosi offers up her ideas on how to celebrate the 4th of July.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 01:16 PM (8avI0)

483 Don't cry.....I dare ya......Done by ESPN (believe it or not)....

http://tinyurl.com/magqwqc

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 01:16 PM (X6akg)

484 479 Tammy sans Thor,

No deep offense meant ma'am, I will admit that southern deer are definitely a more formidable stalk if hunting classic style because of their relative lack of size and lush terrain.

Any opportunity to score decent points with the boys was a welcome one.

I was after all a stranger in a strange land.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:16 PM (LRFds)

485 My indoor kittehs sit on the screened porch and glare at the outdoor ones.

The bird-killing kitteh has made friends with the deer. It will stand about a foot away from them and groom itself while they "trim" the jasmine on the arbor.

This is the same kitteh that lurks on the side of the green, and attacks golf balls. I've heard some world-class swearing.

Nature is...interesting.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 01:17 PM (lVPtV)

486 I had two ancestors at Gettysburg. One was mortally wounded there, and take prisoner by the Yanks. He succumbed to his injuries soon after in the Point Lookout POW camp. And ya, FU Doris Kearns Goodwin.

Posted by: Cowboy at July 04, 2013 01:17 PM (FMrA0)

487 Mule deer = giant freaks with atypical thorny brambled antlers.

Posted by: 13times at July 04, 2013 01:18 PM (fGPLK)

488 Ok a question... Who the fuck is Armie Hammer?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 04, 2013 01:18 PM (V1ZIU)

489 Happy Dependence Day Citizens.....

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at July 04, 2013 01:19 PM (jucos)

490 Dack, a Trivial Pursuit question in the making.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 01:20 PM (8avI0)

491 They lament our immigration system is "broken" in the same way a burglar might say our home security system is "broken". Don't blame me, the burglar, it's really the lack of comprehensive home security that is the problem here. I'm tired of living in the shadows -- though that did help when sneaking into your garage.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 01:20 PM (ZPrif)

492 Who the fuck is Armie Hammer? *** http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2309517/ I had to look him up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 01:20 PM (jjvz+)

493
Season 3 of The King Of The Hill
Hank tries to take Bobby on his first deer hunting trip. Great episode.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 04, 2013 01:21 PM (vzLhi)

494 I have a big problem with showing favoritism towards a group of law-breakers.
Which is what amnesty is.

If I choose to not pay taxes...can I demand amnesty?
What about other laws?
Can we break those too, and demand amnesty?

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 05:13 PM (XWSNs)

--------------------------------------------------

Those have been my thoughts lately, also. If the fed is so noncholant about what laws they adhere to, then perhaps I should be too. I think the feeling could be catching to a good number of people in this country if a national spokesman (or a number of states) would have the courage to introduce it.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 01:21 PM (MtdOz)

495 Prosecutorial discretion. So much more noble sounding than "the whims of the ruling class".

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 04, 2013 01:23 PM (ZPrif)

496 Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 05:16 PM (LRFds) No offense taken, sir! I have seen those Texas deer and I was stunned. We got boars bigger than that here in Arkansas. (In Texas too for that matter) They stalk some here, but it's mostly blinds and yes, the whole corn and cane field thing. I kinda hate that myself.

Posted by: Tammy sans Thor at July 04, 2013 01:23 PM (2/T/u)

497 I had to look him up Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 04, 2013 05:20 PM (jjvz+) A quick skim of that page and I realize I've seen none of those movies. I saw about two minutes of The Social Network but turned it off due to the dreary look of the film as well as a vibe of navel gazing.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 04, 2013 01:23 PM (V1ZIU)

498 I chased a couple deer during my walk this afternoon. They said Ohio deer run like fags and their shit is all retahded.

Posted by: fluffy at July 04, 2013 01:23 PM (z9HTb)

499 Don't cry.....I dare ya......Done by ESPN (believe it or not)....

http://tinyurl.com/magqwqc

Posted by: Tami at July 04, 2013 05:16 PM (X6akg)

OMG, Tami, that goes way past something in my eye. Sitting here with tears flowing, what a great video. Thank you so much for sharing that. Wow.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:24 PM (8lmkt)

500 On this sacred national day of observance, we should take a moment to reflect upon the fact that, you didn't build that.

Posted by: Barky OGenius at July 04, 2013 01:25 PM (62WS0)

501 lol, fluffy!!!

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:26 PM (8lmkt)

502 *bang head into desk*

I hope to regain IQ points. Nancy Pelosi tied in Obamacare with the 4th of July.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 01:27 PM (8avI0)

503 499 Don't cry.....I dare ya......Done by ESPN (believe it or not)....

http://tinyurl.com/magqwqc

Posted by: Tami at July 04, 2013 05:16 PM (X6akg

Is that the vid they just showed on The Five? Because I cried.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 01:27 PM (lVPtV)

504 477 Herr Morgenholz,

Our farms are truly something, I will miss Ohio terribly if fate takes me away from her for all time.
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077

Anybody who hunts knows about Ohio.
We have some pretty neat non typical down here, 28 pts or more.
I would love nothing more than a big Ohio buck though.

Posted by: Big Ben at July 04, 2013 01:27 PM (I5Htn)

505 494. Don't. Adhere to the laws. Until at such point that you don't.

Posted by: T. at July 04, 2013 01:27 PM (y/M/p)

506 The cost of these "celebrations" should, necessarily, skyrocket.

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at July 04, 2013 01:28 PM (jucos)

507 I hope to regain IQ points. Nancy Pelosi tied in Obamacare with the 4th of July.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 05:27 PM (8avI0)

I wish a house would fall on that bitch's head, followed by a bucket of water.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 01:28 PM (lVPtV)

508 Is that the vid they just showed on The Five? Because I cried.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 05:27 PM (lVPtV)

Yes it is.

I cried too....especially at 4:00 - 4:05. Unbelievably cute!

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 01:29 PM (X6akg)

509 No Mule Deer in Ohio.

Posted by: garrett at July 04, 2013 01:30 PM (MAPzJ)

510 488 Dack Thgrmobosis,

Armand Hammer is the Liberal Democrat enabling western trade contact the Soviets used to fund their stabilization period after the Russian Civil War.....

Armie Hammer is the dude that played the Lone Ranger, Armand's great-grandson.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 04, 2013 01:30 PM (LRFds)

511 OMG, Tami, that goes way past something in my eye. Sitting here with tears flowing, what a great video. Thank you so much for sharing that. Wow.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 05:24 PM (8lmkt)

I know! Ten minutes after I watched it, I was getting chicken ready for the grill and just sniffing like a baby.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 01:30 PM (X6akg)

512 494 -- quote from an old western movie, i forget which one. never forgot the quote, tho. think it's John Wayne speaking: "Your problem is, if you start putting aside the law if and when you please, then people start thinking they don't have justice anymore. They start thinking what they have is tyranny."

Posted by: Cowboy at July 04, 2013 01:32 PM (FMrA0)

513 I wish a house would fall on that bitch's head, followed by a bucket of water.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 04, 2013 05:28 PM (lVPtV)

----------------------------------------------------

For me, she is one of the main reasons we have to keep the House in 2014. If the dems win it, we'll be hearing her constant leftist anal drizzlings 24/7. IMHO, she's as evil as the satan-shouting tards in TX.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 01:32 PM (MtdOz)

514 That, Tami. I still got leaky eyeballs . . . Even after fluffy cracked me up. And then Jane cracked me up again. And still, leaky eyeballs. God bless every last member of our amazing Armed Forces and their families.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:32 PM (8lmkt)

515 Speaking of aftermaths, from Egypt and Twitter.

Mohamed Fadel Fahmy ‏@Repent11 1h

Security forces need to increase presence in Menia, an Islamic Jihadi stronghold terrorizing residents/burning churches since last night

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 01:33 PM (8avI0)

516

I know those 'surprise homecoming' things are staged...but they choke me up anyway.

And I'm glad that they do them, because it reminds people of what our military families go through.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 01:33 PM (XWSNs)

517 Well Jane, I think Nancy has suffered a stroke. She was halting as if searching for words as she spoke.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 01:34 PM (8avI0)

518 Wut up y'all?

Posted by: EC at July 04, 2013 01:37 PM (doBIb)

519 New thread up

Posted by: Vendette at July 04, 2013 01:37 PM (d+fT0)

520 516 I know those 'surprise homecoming' things are staged...but they choke me up anyway.

And I'm glad that they do them, because it reminds people of what our military families go through.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 05:33 PM (XWSNs)

I don't think they're all staged....the man and family at the beginning and the end was most likely staged but most of the others....I don't think so.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 01:37 PM (X6akg)

521 Over at Powerline, Paul Miregoff has a pertinent observation: If a simple "I sayest so" can make the IRS not take action on employers in 2014 via ObamaCare, what else may White House authority cause the IRS to do? Or has caused?

Posted by: Logicus at July 04, 2013 01:38 PM (y/M/p)

522 Well Jane, I think Nancy has suffered a stroke. She was halting as if searching for words as she spoke.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 05:34 PM (8avI0)

-------------------------------------------

I don't wish strokes on anyone (my mom died from them), but what a God-send that would be for that scrunt to stroke herself out of functionality.

Posted by: Soona at July 04, 2013 01:39 PM (MtdOz)

523 I've read through the first 100 comments and there are so many things I want to say. I don't know where to start.

Posted by: rickl at July 04, 2013 01:40 PM (sdi6R)

524 new thread went all disappear-y . . .

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:42 PM (8lmkt)

525 What new thread? It just got Redacted.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 04, 2013 01:42 PM (8avI0)

526 WTF? Another evaporated thread?

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 01:42 PM (aDwsi)

527 Oh, it's back now, and better than ever. rickl, c'mon over and share your thoughts.

Posted by: Peaches at July 04, 2013 01:43 PM (8lmkt)

528 It's still there....

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 01:43 PM (X6akg)

529 NSA busy on Independence Day

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 04, 2013 01:43 PM (aDwsi)

530

520...I don't think they're all staged....the man and family at the beginning and the end was most likely staged but most of the others....I don't think so.

Tami, think about...there just happened to be cameras rolling at the exact time that these families get to see their loved one?

Like I said, I don't care if they are staged.

It is something that is worthy of being seen...by as many people as possible.

So I'm glad that they do them.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 01:44 PM (XWSNs)

531 Tami, think about...there just happened to be cameras rolling at the exact timethat thesefamilies get to see their loved one?

Like I said, I don't care if they are staged.
It is something that is worthy of being seen...by as many people as possible.
So I'm glad that they do them.

Posted by: wheatie at July 04, 2013 05:44 PM (XWSNs)

Well, some are done at sporting events, so yeah, cameras would be rolling. And the others....I'm sure if you knew a service member was going to surprise someone, you (or someone else) would make sure it's recorded. I know I would.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 04, 2013 01:47 PM (X6akg)

532 Lots of families tape kids events to send to the absent parent so cameras rolling at what turns out to be a surprise homecoming is kind of normal.

Posted by: Retread at July 04, 2013 02:10 PM (Oz+LZ)

533

"Civil War (an oxymoron if I ever heard)"

Civil - of or relating to citizens and government (as contrasted to military or religious matters)

NOT

Civil - polite behavior

Borrowed from the Latin "bellum civile", used to refer to the wars that led to the transition from the Roman Republic to the Principate and Imperium.

Thus it is understood as "a war between the citizens of a particular nation" as contrasted to "a war between different nations"; not a "war waged in a polite manner", and so is not an oxymoron at all, any more than the "Social War" is a silly name because it wasn't fought at the local cotillion rather than being a war against allies - socii in Latin.

Posted by: Sam at July 04, 2013 02:17 PM (wZIgv)

534 Posted by: weft cut-loop at July 04, 2013 05:37 PM (XS/b3) SeaSide Heights, NJ

Posted by: Trainer say Hi NSA at July 04, 2013 02:28 PM (qad38)

535 "and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Mencken was right about Lincoln's speech - it's a total lie:

"But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determinationÂ—"that government of the people, by the people, for the people," should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. What was the practical effect of the battle of Gettysburg? What else than the destruction of the old sovereignty of the States, i.e., of the people of the States? The Confederates went into battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and veto of the rest of the countryÂ—and for nearly twenty years that veto was so effective that they enjoyed scarcely more liberty, in the political sense, than so many convicts in the penitentiary."

---

Lincoln may have been an abolitionist, but he damn sure hated liberty.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at July 04, 2013 03:30 PM (e/aXo)

536 I've been in the Midwest and Northeast all my life, but I have gradually come around to the idea that Lincoln was a tyrant. The centralization of power in the federal government during and after the Civil War set the stage for the Progressive Era a few decades later. After that, there was no turning back.

Posted by: rickl at July 04, 2013 04:56 PM (sdi6R)

537

Thank you for posting the piture of General Armistead leading the last charge against the union center at Gettysburg. Some years ago on the radio I heard some distant relative of General George Pickett taking credit for being related to the guy. Pickett stayed in the rear while everyone got shot to pieces. You know the drill, you saw the movie, Pickett wringing his hands when everone came stumbling back after the attack. What a hero. It should bcalled Armisteads charge, he died directing it. Signed, Steven Armistead Lamb

Posted by: STEVE LAMN at July 04, 2013 08:11 PM (ZQ1J/)

538 You know what's interesting? Gettysburg lasted 3 days. Stalingrad lasted 164 days. If we go on a per-day casualty rate, guess what? For every 2 casualties in Stalingrad, 3 were casualties in Gettysburg. That's destruction, ladies and gentlemen.

Posted by: get some at July 04, 2013 08:32 PM (JAwEH)

539 Waldo @ 37-
'Had slavery not been an issue would the South been allowed to secede?'. Well, slavery was not the issue. Tariffs were. Beginning right after the Revolution, huge tariffs were charged on the Southern states. So huge that 75 % of the federal budget derived from them by the mid 1800's. This money was used for improvements (infrastructure, if you will) in the North mostly. Lincoln upped the ante as soon as he was elected by getting them raised further. In addition to shredding the Constitution, he didn't care much for the colored. Said they were lesser folk and should go back to Africa. His words, not mine. If I sound a little pissed, it's because EROWMERs were Confederate prisoners in yankee prisons, and one of my GGG-Grandfathers died in one. The rest of us went through 'reconstruction'. We know about Lincoln.

Posted by: EROWMER at July 04, 2013 09:06 PM (OONaw)

540 And secession was Constitutional in 1861. Still is.

Posted by: EROWMER at July 04, 2013 09:08 PM (OONaw)

541 Tariffs, the common man of the South cared less than nothing about tariffs, they weren't importing French fashions or German cuckoo clocks,or Port wine. The causes of the war are still being argued, but the common man North or South wasn't giving the slightest crap about import duties, that's for the aristos, not the yeomen farmers. Imports (tariffs) weren't something the average person in the 19th century USA cared enough to go to war over. I want my tax free cuckoo clock and luxury goods.(maybe a grand piano or two) wasn't in their vocabulary.

Posted by: JHW at July 04, 2013 10:36 PM (B38OD)

542 ** And this is my increasing fear. The leftists are slowly but surely turning our military into one that would not hesitate to fire on us. ** No. A warrior caste raised separate from the population might do that, but a military that recruits from the general population won't. Too many US soldiers are (one or more of) gun owners, Church-goers and Republican voters themselves. The problem you may have to deal with is if 90% of the professional military is abroad, and an uprated Department of Homeland Security turns on you. Then the military would be faced with a dilemma - defeat America's enemies abroad, or let their loved ones be enslaved at home?

Posted by: perturbed at July 05, 2013 03:57 AM (u6Ueb)

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