1 but thereÂ’s nothing illegal about the breaks the company is claiming. Companies like Facebook are allowed to treat the cost of non-cash compensation, such as stock options, as an expense that reduces profits, essentially the way they treat cash compensation such as salaries.
***
So...they are treating non-cash payments as non-cash payments. I'm not sure I see what the problem is.

Those stock options will eventually be turned into cash for the employees - so it is basically a deferred bonus.

The upside of stock options is that they give employees equity in a company, and a very real incentive to make it perform better.

2 My only directive to accountants is "keep me out of prison".

3 If Facebook the company had kept the money, then they would have to pay the taxes on it.  Since it was distributed to these corporate officers, they pay tax on it as income.

I can do the same thing as the owner of a corporation.  If the money sits in the corp, it pays the tax and I do not.  If I distribute it to myself, the corp gets the deduction and I pay the tax as income.  If we close this loophole, then I pay tax twice.

4 Back in the day, fair share meant getting your portion of the bag you helped pay for. And screw the fair shake.

5 new thread is up...blink and you'll miss it!

6 Well, it looks like I've been thread-stomped, so I'm going to put this away for about a half hour and bring it back out.

7 Na...its not a stomp, its a parallel track

8 To the left, fair is what they say it is.

9 NDH-  I have the same thoughts when I read your post as I do discussing the healthcare system.  If the question is how to make the current system work better, it really doesn't matter.  The layers and layers of tax code, written to try to close the "unintended consequences" or loopholes are so contorted and intertwined, that no amount of legislation can fix it.  Same in healthcare- the layers and layers (decades) of regulations are impenetrable.  That is one reason conservatives always seem to come out on the short end of these discussions. They get caught in the trap of trying to fix a broken system.

10

Well, considering that the alternative to protecting your own earnings is letting the government have it and use it to buy votes that work against your own personal values, I'd say

 

KEEP AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!

 

 

 

What, personally, do you owe the FSA?

11 "Loophole" is just the pejorative epithet for an exemption from taxation that the person calling the exemption a "loophole" doesn't like (or thinks people are too lazy to find out the purpose of). A loophole is an exemption from taxation of income either because of the source of the income or the government's assertion of the desirability of an expenditure. Is the personal exemption a loophole? The dependent exemption? The Earned Income Tax Credit? The mortgage interest deduction? Only if you don't think it should be exempted. But why should any of this be taxed? I am for loopholes spread far and wide.

12 It's all part of the quick time blogging, right?

13 Hey NDH, go ahead and put your post back up.

14

 

The 'Flat Tax'...would be the "Fair Share".

15 Hey NDH, go ahead and put your post back up *** I think I'll do just that.

16

This  is  why  I  am  in  favor  of  the  FAIR  TAX.   Loopholes  are  the  games  politicians  play  to  grant  favors,  force  behavior  on  free  men,   and  accumulate  power.  I  say  FUCK  THAT  SHIT!  Shumer,  Pelosi, Obama,  McCain,  you  assholes  don't  own  me.  Raise  the  revenue  for  the  governement's  constitutionally  enumerated  responsibilities  and  don't  conduct  your  social  engineering  while  you're  doing  it.  IT'S.  THAT.  FUCKING.  SIMPLE.

 

ANd  lacking  the  FAIR  TAX,  a  FLAT  TAX  would  be  a  immense  improvement.   I  prefer  one  over  the  other,  but  I  would  not  make  the  perfect  the  enemy  of  the  good,  since  what  we  have  now  is  stinking  pig  shit   awful.   

17 "I am for loopholes spread far and wide." Fucken doomed.

18 The word "loophole" denotes something illegal, cheating, etc. Hence, it's a very effective weapon with which to attack corporations, the successful and the wealthy. The more money we get to keep, the more we are free to make our own choices. And the rich don't shove cash in mattresses; they invest it, just as corporations do on R&D. But that's something the left wants to "fundamentally transform," may the drop dead.

19 No, they should pay nothing.

The income ultimately returns to the investors, who are then taxed on it. Why tax the same money twice?

Corporate taxes are wrong.

20 Funny how leftists demand people pay their "fair share" but won't actually state what a person's "fair share" is!

21 Taxes applied uniformly help fund the government and do not have market-dsitorting effects. They are "fair" and do not create unreasonable costs for compliance. Loopholes by intent have market-distorting effects and are intended to "unfair"--to segregate taxpayers (and industries) into favored and unfavored groups. They incur great expense for compliance.

22

Just do away with the corporate income tax, no corporation pays it.  The money all comes through the individual employee or shareholder as income anyway.  Doing so would free the corporate decision making of tax concerns and have them make decisions based on more efficiently providing goods and services.  No chance of that though as it would mean abandoning envy, the mother of all sins.

23 Nope, I think that instead of the government confiscating everything and then donating it back to those they deem worthy we need to keep our money and give to the government what we think it is worth.  I think it would do them good to be forced to run off donations.  We would see very quickly just how much liberals think government "investments" really pay off.

But if you are going to have a tax then it needs to be a flat one with no exemptions and where everyone pays the same percentage.  Otherwise you give the government too much power to reward and punish people.  What we have now is just fascism.  Better yet would be everyone paying the same amount since that is the only truly fair system and allows the easiest method of understanding just what the costs of government are.

24 52 To Ma Bell, you can assure your daughter that she wasn't hallucinating;


since everyone is here now, repost from last thread:

61 Any San Fran, North or East Bay morons here?

My daughter was outside smoking and she let out a big yelp. She swears she saw a fireball streaking towards the west (Pacific). Yes she is sober and no, she is not prone to hysterics

Posted by: Ma Bell at February 15, 2013 10:58 PM

Another Meteor Flashes Across Bay AreaSkies

http://tinyurl.com/co7zuhf

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) — On the heels of a close fly-by of an asteroid 17,000 miles from Earth on Friday morning and a devastating meteor that landed in Russia, Bay Area stargazers caught a glimpse of another meteor Friday night.

25 I like to shop at the duty free shop.

26 The Facebook employees who exercised the options pay income taxes on this income just like any other compensation. It's no different than the company taking a tax deduction for salaries. So, no, I'm not squirming a bit here.

27 The Political Hat: "Funny how leftists demand people pay their "fair share" but won't actually state what a person's "fair share" is!" That would be, whatever we decide we need. And since that changes as we go along, we don't want to pin ourselves down.

28 our idea of fair share is based on equality of treatment

theirs = equality of outcome

obviously a perversion of the whole concept of fairness, since the end result is anything but fair

29 I wonder about this myself.  I think the best taxation system for the county would be a simple flat tax with next-to-zero exemptions, deductions, or credits.  But at the same time, I think government spends too much and the only way to get it under control is to starve the beast - and for that reason, I'm glad for all the exemptions, deductions, and credits that allow us to reduce our tax bill.

30

Whatever your "fair share" is, it's not enough.

 

From each according to his ability to create and be gouged, to each according to the amount to buy their vote.

 

 

The past few years have called into question everything I once accepted as the principles upon which our Republic was allegedly founded.  And people on relief for YEARS is not a principle upon which the Republic was founded.

 

You can have liberty and the right to vote, or if you choose welfare, you forfeit you voting "rights".  And while classified as a government "employee", you also lose your "right" to vote.

 

None of that will ever happen, of course.  But the level of stupidity now present in voting is a clue to just how bad things are.

31 "Fair Share" simply means more than currently.  Everybody knows that.  What a maroon.

32 I saw something from Walter Williams today.





"Let me offer you my definition of Social Justice. I keep what I earn, and you keep what you earn.  Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you and why. " --Walter Williams

33 If we keep printing money what's the point of taxation?

34 I guess one could say mortgage  interest deductions are a loop hole.

35 No, they owe no one any money based on profit. Isn't employing thousands good enough?

36 Corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them. All that taxing corporations has gotten us is a pocket industry that rather than producing goods and services people can enjoy, produces tax avoidance for corporations.

37 "I keep what I earn, and you keep what you earn."

You didn't earn that.  Not by yourself.

-would be their response-

38

 

The 'mortgage interest deduction' is just the remaining remnant of the 'Interest Deduction'...that we all used to have available to us.

 

That's right.

We used to be able to deduct *all* of our interest that we paid...on anything.

 

The Interest Deduction, is still available to businesses.

But it is not, for individuals...only mortgage interest is still deductable.

 

The Interest Deduction was 'more fair', because you didn't have to own a house to deduct the interest you paid throughout the year.

Credit Cards, charge accounts...whatever you paid interest on, was deductable.

 

This was taken from us, with the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985.

Our interest deduction was phased out, over several years.

It was a bipartisan clusterfuck.

 

It is one of the things that led to the 'Housing Bubble'.

 

 

39 "I keep what I earn, and you keep what you earn."

You didn't earn that. Not by yourself.

-would be their response-

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at February 16, 2013 04:02 PM (MmH0Z)

Another reason why I think arguing with them is pointless.  At some point we are going to have to fight them. 

40 Not in the least bit.  Large wealth in private hands only means that the individual gets to invest or spend the money. 

The alternative?  Taking it and letting the government spend it?

No.  The individual made the money, let him spend it has he pleases.

Some are wise, some are not.  Gate's work to stop Malaria is wise. 

41 Another reason why I think arguing with them is pointless. At some point we are going to have to fight them.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 16, 2013 04:04 PM (bb5+

 

 

Ding ding ding, winner and while we are at it, work up a #6 on all telemarketers

42 I've raised children. You cannot argue with them. They must learn for themselves.

43 No C-corp pays taxes; they only collect taxes. Corporate tax rate and cap gains = 0 Income OR consumption tax flat 19 Nothing else makes as much sense.

44 The word "loophole" denotes something illegal, cheating, etc. Hence, it's a very effective weapon with which to attack corporations, the successful and the wealthy.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 16, 2013 03:52 PM (XkWWK)

They often lie by insinuation through the words they chose to discuss any particular issue.  The other day I stumbled onto a liberal blog by accident, and looked through it a bit.  I finally saw a post where the blog author accused the big oil companies of getting "subsidies." 

Since i've had this argument before, I thought i'd have a little fun and so I told her that someone was lying to her.  Exxon made 16 billion last quarter, and didn't get any of it from the government. 

You see, they use the word "Subsidy" when they really mean "Not Taxed at the rate which we think they should be taxed."  I finally just told her to show me a link where an Oil company is getting a check from the Government, or I call bullshit.

45

 

Truman,

 

*We* are the ones who pay Corporate Taxes...because they are passed on to us in consumer prices.

 

46 38 wheatie. True. Some used  get around this by remortgaging their home for a higher amount  and  using the money to buy a car, etc. Probably not so much now that most mortgages are below water.

47 >>>You didn't earn that. Not by yourself.

-would be their response-

Sadly, I have a very good friend, self-employed Dem, who has been extremely successful all his life, built two small companies, both highly profitable, and yet he believed, and still believes O'Barko when he said "You didn't build that." And thinks we should all be taxed more.

I. Do. Not. Get. It.

I just do not.

48 I know what would fix this shit.

49 We've got to move these refrigerators, we've got to move these color tv's.

50 AK-47 CHINESE - SEMI - MY BOTHER READY TO SELL

51 Loophole makes it sound like a mistake, an oversight.  There are no mistakes or oversights in the tax code.  All those fucking exceptions were put in very intentionally at someone's behest.

52 Chah-lee Rangel is back with his proposal to reinstate the Draft.

If the student deferment was eliminated, I would be inclined to support it. Since they wouldn't dare, I won't

http://tinyurl.com/cxjsym9

53 50 comments in, and nobody has said:

Niedermeyer's Dead Horse...you ignorant slut!

54

I bludgeon like a spork.

 

 

55 But Romney killed and he still might be a felon when he did not pay taxes on the speaking fees payments that he did for the last 10 years.

56 What's fair?  A pound of flesh.  No,  make it half a kilogram.  Sounds like less and it's so European.

57 Well, I am an accountant (CPA) and have been a CFO for a couple of mid-sized manufacturing companies. "Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands." - Judge Learned Hand, Gregory vs. Helvering, 1934

58 19 freaking % Truman? No. Thanks. Now, a flat tax, if we are to have an income tax at all, of 10% I could deal with. And the federal govt gets back to doing only those things listed in the Constitution. Everything else back to the states.

59 In my opinion, corporations shouldn't pay any income taxes.  Because as previously stated, "corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them".  Jobs are more important to a community (country) than watered down government services.

If for example Oregon (the state I live in) reduced corporate income taxes to the lowest in the world or eliminated them all together, several businesses would be looking to open shop here because it would give them a competitive advantage.  The unemployment rate would fall and when a shortage of workers occurs, salaries will go up (higher standard of living).  The state and local communities will benefit from an increase in personal income tax revenue.

60

And thinks we should all be taxed more.

 

I assume you have advised him  he should be  writing a personal cheque every year to the IRS, until such time as his wise and benevolent government chooses to tax him at a level more appropriate for someone who didn't 'build that'.

61 comments in, and nobody has said: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse...you ignorant slut! *** heh! I don't have to believe everything I write or, hell, for that matter, I don't have to understand it all to get a conversation going. I always learn something from the morons in threads such as these. You guys are always full of wit and wisdom.

62 Old topic but...
The rabbit had 3 comments, one was run away, run away.  chortle.

63

Sadly, I have a very good friend, self-employed Dem, who has been extremely successful all his life, built two small companies, both highly profitable, and yet he believed, and still believes O'Barko when he said "You didn't build that." And thinks we should all be taxed more.

I. Do. Not. Get. It.

I just do not.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 16, 2013 04:10 PM (4Mv1T)

******

And why not just him...thats the part I don't get if is so generous, he CAN give more.To the gov. to charities. Just leave other peoples shit alone. What's so hard about that? no offense to your friend TR.

64 The left's motto is like James Bond's: Orbis non sufficit.

65 I started paying cash when possible..if you're a small contractor, feel free not to declare.

66 >> Posted by: tgibson1962 at February 16, 2013 04:14 PM (WFDUK) Love that quote. I use it often.

67 I'm trying to figure out if this is the thread that is stomping, or the one that is being stomped.

68 The reason I suggest 19 is because that's the limit of taxes collected per Hauser's Law. 10% is fine too.

69 You guys are always full of wit and wisdom and shit.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 16, 2013 04:15 PM (piMMO)

FIFY

70

I guess one could say mortgage interest deductions are a loop hole.

 

Yes it is. Some group of politicians put that in the tax code to encourage home ownership. Every loophole that has ever existed is there to encourage the action it was designed for.

 

The fact that we have thousands of pages of tax  law that is so convoluted, even the IRS can't comprehend it is evidence of failure. If we had politicans who were at all interested in doing the right thing, we'd have a flat tax of around 10% along with a Balanced Budget  Amendment.

 

This would force idiot politicans to free up the economy for their money instead of squeezing everyone  with needless regulations that restrict the economy  and reduce  tax revenues.

71 >>>You guys are always full of wit and wisdom

But mostly piss and vinegar. Don't forget that.

72 I have nothing to add to this discussion other than that curling is oddly enthralling. 

73 65 I started paying cash when possible..if you're a small contractor, feel free not to declare. Posted by: Upside to the Zombie Apocalypse at February 16, 2013 04:16 PM (QLJPW) We had a couple of cabbies in my family and my mother was convinced that they'd suffer when they retired because they'd get no Social Security. How freakin' ironic.

74

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 16, 2013 04:17 PM (bb5+k)

 

We be the stompee

75 74 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 16, 2013 04:17 PM (bb5+k) We be the stompee Posted by: Velvet Ambition at February 16, 2013 04:20 PM (R8hU I remember there was a gang in Brooklyn back in the 70's called the Jolly Stompers. I think they are now part of the SCOAMF administration.

76 I have nothing to add to this discussion other than that curling is oddly enthralling.

Posted by: alexthechick

 

"She really had to bear down hard on the shaft!"

 

*gets woozier*

77 Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at February 16, 2013 04:19 PM (Gk3SS)

It's for chicks....see the brooms?

78

I need Moron validation:

 

Is it too early to start drinking?

79 Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at February 16, 2013 04:19 PM (Gk3SS) You see the story I posted?

80 Is it too early to start drinking? Posted by: USS Diversity at February 16, 2013 04:23 PM (QLJPW) Never

81 It's for chicks....see the brooms?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 16, 2013 04:22 PM (GsoHv)

I'd be more concerned about the whole knowing exactly how to throw a heavy rock thing.

82

We could combine   curling with fast cars.

 

NASCURL.

83 "Shouldn't they pay something?"

I work overseas, and Uncle Sam taxes me on the whole of it, regardless of where I earned it. Overseas (oilfields) pays pretty good, and I have a pretty hefty tax bill on my 1040. But that tax bill gets offset by the income taxes that I pay to the country I'm working in. Last year I paid the high end of five figures in Income tax; just not all to Uncle Sam.

Lots of countries have higher income tax rates than the US - 35% flat out on gross income in my last assignment. I am allowed to deduct that from my taxes due to Uncle Sam, so my Federal 1040 showed a six-figure income, and only a couple bucks paid in US taxes.

There is a big, big, big difference among "Adjusted Gross Income (AGI)", "Taxable Income", "Taxes due" and "Taxes paid to the IRS".  Learn them before you start your next taxes rant.

84 You see the story I posted? Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at February 16, 2013 04:23 PM (GEICT)


I did and I replied and everything.

85 "Loophole" is a myth. These are legal tax breaks for whatever reason. I pay my accountant good money to find as may as possible. I pay my taxes and not one penny more. You want to spend more do so and shut up. Tell the Libtards to suck dick. I made it legally and I'll spend it any way I please. They want more; go work for it you lazy asses

86 Yes it is. Some group of politicians put that in the tax code to encourage home ownership. Every loophole that has ever existed is there to encourage the action it was designed for.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at February 16, 2013 04:17 PM (+z4pE)

Blame it all on the 16th amendment.  While we're at it, I don't think very many amendments past the 10th are helpful to the nation.   Some were just wrong-headed, while others were good ideas, but just badly written.

87 Guido, Lurking Canuck- Points all well taken.

We had a LONG discussion about this over several hours this week with the individual I mentioned. Even worse, he is not the only Dem I know who is successful, self-employed, and old enough to know better. They voted for the dog-eater twice.

We continue to say that the blue people are effing dumbasses. I know I say it, every damn day. As hard as it is for me to say this here, the blue people I know are actually not.

88 I did and I replied and everything. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at February 16, 2013 04:25 PM (Gk3SS) No shit? Well, aren't I the asshole. I'll have to go find it.

89 Now, for the record, so long as the loopholes exist, I say "Go for it!". No laws are being broken by having a skilled accountant or attorney who can take the best advantage of the opportunity but, really.... doesn't this make you squirm just a little?

Yes, because those loopholes are the result of well-connected firms and people who lobbied for them in order to hold back competition and protect their spot of sun.

Large biz can use its size as leverage to offset any bad parts of laws. Smaller firms and individuals, by and large, cannot.

I don't necessarily fault people or corps from paying as little in taxes as legally possibly; but I sure as shit have a problem with their lobbying for special favors, cut-outs, and exemptions.

Think of GE's famous low tax bill last year. On it's face they did nothing illegal or wrong, but they are part of Obama and Co.'s Fascist Fuck Festival. There isn't a chance in hell that this isn't a coincidence.

Yes, both parties do it. And, no, we shouldn't give cover to the GOP when they do. This corruption is eroding our Republic. Trust destroyed is trust lost forever.

90

>>The word "loophole" denotes something illegal,
cheating, etc. Hence, it's a very effective weapon<<

 

 

How about we close the Affirmative Action Loophole?

91 Wow. You commented right away. I'll be over here, drooling and blinking.

92 72I have nothing to add to this discussion other than that curling is oddly enthralling.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at February 16, 2013 04:19 PM (Gk3SS)

I had the 'oppotunity' to spend some extended winter time in N. Minnesooooota where they had a tricked out curling club. 2nd floor Bar/rest wall to ceiling glass overlooking the curling lanes. Oddly mesmerizing sport. My wife was a 'skip' tells people where to aim, how fast and yells at people when and how hard to sweep. Perfect for her.

...and I appreciate your sympathy for me.

93 I think that instead of the government confiscating everything and then donating it back to those they deem worthy we need to keep our money and give to the government what we think it is worth.

Posted by: Voluble at February 16, 2013 03:55 PM (qYvEa)

**************************

That's what the Articles of Confederation tried, and it didn't work. The Founders recognized that if there is going to be a government, then that government needs the ability to enforce the financing of itself.

94 Fair tax or flat tax, either is better than the current system. Corporations do not pay taxes, they just collect them and pass them on as a cost of doing business. Nineteen percent is still lower than the current tax rate (mine at least) and is in line with what the actual tax rate ends up being anyway.


Nice theoretical discussion.

95
We continue to say that the blue people are effing dumbasses. I know I say it, every damn day. As hard as it is for me to say this here, the blue people I know are actually not.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 16, 2013 04:26 PM (4Mv1T)

As Ronald Reagan said:  "The problem with our opponents is not that they are ignorant... It's that they know so much which isn't so."

What they are is WORSE than ignorant.

96 Wow. You commented right away. I'll be over here, drooling and blinking. Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at February 16, 2013 04:28 PM (GEICT)


So like normal then?

97 Posted by: Truman North at February 16, 2013 04:17 PM (I2LwF) I was under the impression that 19% was for all taxes *combined* in order to avoid Laffer curve problems. I was always bad at math, but my understanding is that each individual tax needs to be lower than 19% then. Is that correct?

98 So like normal then? Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at February 16, 2013 04:30 PM (Gk3SS) *blink* *dribble* *blink blink* Huh?

99 Well, aren't I the asshole.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at February 16, 2013 04:26 PM (GEICT)

Just now figuring that out?

100 crap

101
Yes, both parties do it. And, no, we shouldn't give cover to the GOP when they do. This corruption is eroding our Republic. Trust destroyed is trust lost forever.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 16, 2013 04:27 PM (Ipj15)

I'm beginning to think along different lines.  The ship is holed, and it is sinking.  Best get what you can before you have to make it to a lifeboat.  I do not believe the Republic is going to recover.  We've let too much damage occur without fixing it.

102 Hhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha!!!!! Atta boy GGE. How does that Karma taste?

103 42 I've raised children. You cannot argue with them. They must learn for themselves.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at February 16, 2013 04:06 PM (MmH0Z)

**************************

But they break a lot of things while they are learning, including sometimes burning down the house.

104 We continue to say that the blue people are effing dumbasses. I know I say it, every damn day. As hard as it is for me to say this here, the blue people I know are actually not.

Posted by: Tobacco Road

 

 

I feel your pain.  Have a good friend who is most certainly not an idiot in his own life (functions basically as a conservative), but is far left politically (recommends reading Chomsky, lervs him some single payer health care, etc.)

 

Indoctrination, pure and simple.

105 tastes like chicken.


At least I didn't have to get into the barrel...

106 I'd be more concerned about the whole knowing exactly how to throw a heavy rock thing.

Since it only slides on ice and I've already skipped over steel billets a rock you can't overhand 10 feet isn't a worry.

107 >>>What they are is WORSE than ignorant.

First off, I take none of this personally.

Just for the record, my politics are way right of the current GOP, as most are here.

But when you know someone, as in this case, who is smart enough to strike out on his own, inherited nothing cause his parents are alive, make a lot of money, by a lot, I mean an income averaging $300-700k a year consistently. Live in a $1mm house that is paid for, educated his three kids, is a moral man, looks after his family, follows all news and foreign affairs, etc, and so on.

Simply saying they are ignorant will never win the day.

108 Something wrong with the world when curling is an Olympic sport and wrestling isn't any more.

109 Meghan McCain ‏@McCainBlogette You could not drag my ass on a cruise ship, ever. Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More With the promise of a free all you can eat buffet, she would swim out to sea to climb on board!

110 You shall not covet ... Anything that is your neighbor's.

111
Simply saying they are ignorant will never win the day.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 16, 2013 04:36 PM (4Mv1T)

Didn't say he was ignorant.  Said he had a lot of beliefs that aren't true.  That he can live one way and vote another is a common enough dichotomy.  Mostly it affects the affluent more so than people who have to struggle for a living. 

What does he do for a living, if I might ask, and did he pay for his own college, or did his parents do it for him?

112 With the promise of a free all you can eat buffet, she would swim out to sea to climb on board! *** Yeah. I'm not buying it either.

113 28 our idea of fair share is based on equality of treatment theirs = equality of outcome Agree: word fair is verboten in our house & at work. NOL's = happiness. Like found money every tax season.

114 Maybe someone could explain to me how the hell a modern ship can lose power and be stuck out for eight fucking days and they can't pull a tender alongside to supply power to her? Or at least get the passengers transferred off to another ship? They were in the Gulf of fucking Mexico, not in the middle of the Atlantic ferfucksakes.

115 Hmmm. Who to choose? Karl Rove, or Jim DeMint? A message from Jim DeMint. http://bit.ly/XFLp8f

116 Maybe someone could explain to me how the hell a modern ship can lose power and be stuck out for eight fucking days and they can't pull a tender alongside to supply power to her? Or at least get the passengers transferred off to another ship? They were in the Gulf of fucking Mexico, not in the middle of the Atlantic ferfucksakes. *** they claimed "dangerous conditions" in the Gulf. Uh huh.

117

Well many articles forget to remind people that GOVERMENT put in the loophole why can't I use it.

But the real issue with loopholes is market/investment distortion. The reason for a flat tax is too let you keep the maximum of your earnings and spend or invest as you see fit and not be forced into activity just to get a tax break.

118 "Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you and why."

I know Walter Williams is an expert in the field with decades of research, but your free-shitters all have glib answers for that question, basically boiling down to "all of it, 'cause I want it."  So I think a better question for turning minds is "Tell me how much of what you earn belongs to me."

119 Milka Duno leads Lap 1 of the ARCA race.

120

"I've said my piece. I am prepared for the bludgeoning."

* Savagely Beats Niedermeyer's Dead Horse about the head and shoulders With Dr. Moreau's Nerf-Dildo.

*Plays a very sad, guilt-ridden song on my tiny piano. Hyena on Squeeze-Box Accompaniment. The whole Island Weeps.  

121

Maybe someone could explain to me how the hell a modern ship can lose power and be stuck out for eight fucking days and they can't pull a tender alongside to supply power to her? Or at least get the passengers transferred off to another ship? They were in the Gulf of fucking Mexico, not in the middle of the Atlantic ferfucksakes.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 16, 2013 04:42 PM (yh0zB)

 

1. OVER hearing about  "horrific"  conditions. Fat losers: look up  Oryoku Maru. Of course those guys didn't pay for the cruise.

 

2. How can Carnival ever book a trip on that fecal boat? They need to pretend it sank, steam clean it and rename it.

122 >>>What does he do for a living, if I might ask, and did he pay for his own college, or did his parents do it for him?

I don't know for sure, but I expect his folks sent him to school, as mine did. And we used to work together years ago. Both headhunters for a very long time. He's smarter than me, and makes more money than I do, but the income can be wildly cyclical in any case.

Just interesting that we share most all of the same values, except politics. And this is not just an anomaly. I can think of several friends/associates who live close to me, simialr age, income, values, family situation. One Catholic, one Jewish, three protestant, one agnostic. All Dems, 'cept me.

123

So I think a better question for turning minds is "Tell me how much of what you earn belongs to me."

 

Remember that video of the students who didn't want their grades "redistributed" a few years back? They seem  to be all for the disbursal of other people's stuff.

 

Their  stuff?   Not so much.

124 109 Meghan McCain ‏@McCainBlogette
You could not drag my ass on a cruise ship, ever.
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With the promise of a free all you can eat buffet, she would swim out to sea to climb on board! Posted by: waldo at February 16, 2013 04:37 PM

A cargo crane couldn't drag her ass on a cruise ship

125 I do not believe the Republic is going to recover. We've let too much damage occur without fixing it.
Posted by: DiogenesLamp

I'm on the fence with that. Worse things have happened to other countries that have recovered and nothing is certain.

Yes, I get the idea of carving out a piece of solace and watching it burn. But of course that doesn't preclude us still fighting it in some manner.

126 2. How can Carnival ever book a trip on that fecal boat? They need to pretend it sank, steam clean it and rename it.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 16, 2013 04:45 PM (QLJPW)

They can't. Best to send it to the scrappers, even if they don't cut it up for razor blades if nothing else to gut it and completely rebuild it. With at least a dozen emergency generators and casualty power stations. Contract to the Navy for damage control advice, they can use the cash and they're good at making broken stuff work again.

127 late to the party here, but it is increasingly frying my dainty ass that people get a deduction for mortgage interest, when I have to pay my entire usurious El Lay rent after taxes.  I know, I know, you hate me now.  I don't care, it needed to be said.

128
I don't know for sure, but I expect his folks sent him to school, as mine did. And we used to work together years ago. Both headhunters for a very long time. He's smarter than me, and makes more money than I do, but the income can be wildly cyclical in any case.

Just interesting that we share most all of the same values, except politics. And this is not just an anomaly. I can think of several friends/associates who live close to me, simialr age, income, values, family situation. One Catholic, one Jewish, three protestant, one agnostic. All Dems, 'cept me.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 16, 2013 04:46 PM (4Mv1T)

Probably just indoctrinated more while in college, or perhaps more susceptible to it.  I will also point out that people who are sent to school by their parents, generally haven't had enough experience in life's school of hard knocks. 

I had to pay my own way.

129 late to the party here, but it is increasingly frying my dainty ass that people get a deduction for mortgage interest, when I have to pay my entire usurious El Lay rent after taxes. I know, I know, you hate me now. I don't care, it needed to be said. **** I'm no longer a homeowner so, I get it.

130 109 Meghan McCain ‏@McCainBlogette
You could not drag my ass on a cruise ship, ever.
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With the promise of a free all you can eat buffet, she would swim out to sea to climb on board! Posted by: waldo at February 16, 2013 04:37 PM

Whenever Meggie McBoobs tweets, she invites abuse. It would be very impolite not to RSVP

131

In Facebook's case it is not any illegality it is the optics.  The company goes public and the owners make billions.  That same company then gives Obama practical assistance during the election campaign.  After he wins the election Obama is victoriously photographed with Zuckerberg but in the meantime all those people who invested in Facebook when it went public have seen their investment diminish significantly. 

 

The optics of this are Obama and Zuckerberg big winners, shareholders mugs.

132 ...I had to pay my own way.

Not easy to do I'm sure, but I think self-employment tends to level that playing field for this discussion. When you only get to east what you can shoot, it impacts one's perspective, but apprently not one's politics.  And this is what perplexes me the most.

133 Flat tax at 15 percent, income deduction of 10K, no other deductions. Won't happen because too many people are making too much money off of the tax system as it is and the politicos love to play favorites.

134 I'm on the fence with that. Worse things have happened to other countries that have recovered and nothing is certain.

Yes, I get the idea of carving out a piece of solace and watching it burn. But of course that doesn't preclude us still fighting it in some manner.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 16, 2013 04:49 PM (Ipj15)

The United States is different from other nations in many ways.  Most of them have long histories of Monarchical governance, so they might be more accepting of misery than would Americans.  Most of them are also Homogenous.  

I expect that when money becomes worthless here, strife is going to break along ethnic lines.  There is just too much balkanization going on in our political structure to avoid it.  Likewise I see an Urban Rural split, with battle lines drawn.

I also think the modern American is on average, spoiled, childish, and unfamiliar with difficulty or suffering.  They won't take it well.

135 124 109 Meghan McCain ‏@McCainBlogette You could not drag my ass on a cruise ship, ever. Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More With the promise of a free all you can eat buffet, she would swim out to sea to climb on board! Posted by: waldo at February 16, 2013 04:37 PM A cargo crane couldn't drag her ass on a cruise ship Posted by: kbdabear at February 16, 2013 04:49 PM (mCvL4) I was thinking Fork Lift but it'd probably bust the ramp.

136 >>>Likewise I see an Urban Rural split, with battle lines drawn.

Not sure about other states, but this could be assuredly true in NC. The 5 or so metro areas, if you can cal them that, vote blue by county, all other of the 100 counties vote red.

137 Simply saying they are ignorant will never win the day. Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 16, 2013 04:36 PM (4Mv1T) "There ain't no such animal." Some people refuse to get it. It ain't about IQ. It is a form of ignorance, however. I know a very smart person who just got themselves into a position through cultural similarity where they believe all manner of bugfuck-insane things. Since they stick to bad sources for information, they get bad information - and naturally people around them badmouth all other sources of information, thus insulating themselves from reality.

138

our idea of fair share is based on equality of treatment theirs = equality of outcome

 

Scampydog, that's why I think Facebook is a perfect example of Democrats' hypocrisy.  Obama should have been denouncing Zuckerberg for suckering shareholders into believing his company was worth more than it was and yet he is delighted to take his money and practical assistance. 

139 Likewise I see an Urban Rural split, with battle lines drawn.

Not sure about other states, but this could be assuredly true in NC. The 5 or so metro areas, if you can cal them that, vote blue by county, all other of the 100 counties vote red.

That is largely true in California and, increasingly,  unfortunately, Texas. 

140 Most people don't learn except by experience. When faced with experience, only a plurality learn from it. These people then work themselves up to an aneurysm trying to deal with the rest. I call it the Cycle of AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!

141 That is largely true in California and, increasingly, unfortunately, Texas. Posted by: Peaches at February 16, 2013 05:04 PM (kpCLl) I keep telling people you can't flee from the Blue Flu, it grows within you wherever you go. But they don't listen. A *lot* of Republicans fled California. It *was* a swing state at one point. I wonder how much the Left joined the call for the Right to flee.

142 I believe that's what happened when half the libtard assholes in CA swarmed up to the Pacific Northwest, Merovign.  It's unfortunate that there really is no cure for stupid.

143 No, FB should pay zero taxes. The proper corporate tax rate is zero. The money should be taxed, once, when paid as income or distributed as dividends and interest.

This would eliminate many of the distortions in our tax code, and allow our firms to be run to maximize profit and output, instead of looking for ways to fiddle with the tax code, hire 'aggressive' CPAs, and States making silly promises when competing against each other for new biz.

Remember, corporations are a legal fiction. They are all owned by citizens who pay taxes, in aggregate. Many firms are structured so that the income is a pass-through anyway to the single owner or LPs. Almost no firms are giant behemoths like FB or Exxon.

144
That is largely true in California and, increasingly, unfortunately, Texas.

Posted by: Peaches at February 16, 2013 05:04 PM (kpCLl)

From my reading, it is true all across the United States to greater and lesser extents.  Urbanization itself tends to nurture a socialist mindset.  Country Folk have to handle their own problems, but in cities "the government" handles the water, the sewage, the trash collection, the policing, the firefighting, etc. 

For a kick, go over to "American Thinker" website, and search for an article called "Pigeons Rats and Democrats."  It is not only hilariously funny, it is also an eye-opener.  

145 CORPORATIONS ARE MADE OF PEOPLE! THEY'RE MADE OF PEOPLE! Corporations *don't* pay taxes, they collect taxes. One of the easy ways to identify an "indoctrinated leftist" is to find out if they can answer who pays corporate taxes. A true ideologue can answer it and deflect, distract, or make excuses. A useful idiot will simply deny reality. Someone whose liberalism is simply because they were mired in it in school or on TV will be flummoxed by the question and will consistently get the answer wrong.

146 "Fair Share" in the impending Sith Empire of America means what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine, too. What? I've altered our bargain. Pray I don't alter it again.

147 That was funny, Diogenes.  I fuckin' hate pigeons.

148 Hey now. Sith economic policies are quite enlightened, in the Hayekian sense. Sure, we occasionally strip a colony planet dry to build a Super Star Destroyer or two, but only if the colony has been bad.

149 That was funny, Diogenes. I fuckin' hate pigeons.

Posted by: Peaches at February 16, 2013 05:18 PM (kpCLl)

I thought you would like it.  It's been years since I first read it, and I still think it's funny. 

150 127---" late to the party here, but it is increasingly frying my dainty ass that people get a deduction for mortgage interest, when I have to pay my entire usurious El Lay rent after taxes." Posted by: Peaches at February 16, 2013 04:51 PM (kpCLl) Your landlord gets a deduction for mortgage interest and many other things. If he did not, your rent would be higher. This is like homeowners getting mad because renters "don't pay property taxes." They do, just indirectly.

151 Your landlord gets a deduction for mortgage interest and many other things. If he did not, your rent would be higher.

Uh, no, that may be true in some areas, but the prices where I live, on the Westside of LA, are as high as the market will bear.  I pay $1350 for a one bedroom apartment.  This does not include a garage.  The recently vacated ones are being marketed for $1450-$1495.  It's hell.

152 California has/had a renter's credit on CA taxes, but basically if you qualify for it you can't afford to rent in CA.

153 California has/had a renter's credit on CA taxes, but basically if you qualify for it you can't afford to rent in CA.

LOL, Merovign, so true!!!  I just sent off my tax returns yesterday.  In order to claim the puny renters' credit, you have to make so little money that you are probably homeless to start with.  The only time I can remember taking it was when unemployment was my only income. 

154 Simple test of a subsidy: Money goes from the Treasury to a recipient. If no money goes out of the Treasury to the taxpayer, they're not subsidized. That covers every case where somebody earns money, and doesn't have to pay as much money to the Treasury as they might have, if the law was different. Your tax rate, in equity, is 0%. You owe nothing in taxes until and unless the law creates an obligation. Your obligation is limited to what the law currently requires. You owe nothing beyond that, out of fairness.

155 The only time I can remember taking it was when unemployment was my only income. Posted by: Peaches at February 16, 2013 05:36 PM (kpCLl) I got it *once* when I was in college and working part time.

156 Uh, no, that may be true in some areas, but the prices where I live, on the Westside of LA, are as high as the market will bear. I pay $1350 for a one bedroom apartment. This does not include a garage. The recently vacated ones are being marketed for $1450-$1495. It's hell. *** Geez! Here in Florida I'm in a 3/1 house with a garage and a big yard with oak trees. $850 per month.

157 Thank you, Niedermeyer.  Here in LA, depending on location, that house would be rented for anywhere between $2500 (full ghetto) to $5000 a month (somewhere near me).  And there would be no big yard involved.

158 When my government decides to stop raping my grandchildren, I might give objection to stuff like this. Until then, game on. Rape this fucked system right back until it collapses.

159 What makes loopholes wrong the following: --If everyone who could take advantage of a loophole actually knew about it and did, then it wouldn't be a loophole. But since not everyone knows about it, it sets up a situation where some people are paying more just because they haven't the time or resources to examine the law to find out that they don't have to pay. Think of it this way: If all you owed me was $5, but you actually paid $10, is it my moral obligation to tell you you overpaid, or can I just smile and say thanks?

160 I suggest structuring the tax rate to compete with tax haven countries.

A 10 to 12% rate, with zero deductions would do that. Make the rate low enough so that people living abroad will want to have an American residence, and declare income in America for tax purposes.

161 "Companies like Facebook are allowed to treat the cost of non-cash compensation, such as stock options, as an expense that reduces profits," I believe Facebook is REQUIRED to treat the cost of non-cash employee compensation this way. Not optional. Happily, for those who want taxes paid, the deduction Facebook takes is entirely offset by income recognized by the employees who received the option compensation. In other words, this is a total non-issue. If you want to go after corporations for slimy tax practices, go after GE and it's ilk who illegally move profits to low or no tax countries through transfer pricing practices. They're the real tax crooks, I believe.

162 Thank you, Niedermeyer. Here in LA, depending on location, that house would be rented for anywhere between $2500 (full ghetto) to $5000 a month (somewhere near me). And there would be no big yard involved. **** Holy cow! I'd be stuffed into an efficiency in the ghetto if I lived there.

163 Wonder what Ashley Judd pays?  Hey you puffy faced moron twat......We learned a little bit when you butt lickers went after Palin..

I wish.....

164 >>Think of it this way: If all you owed me was $5, but you actually paid $10, is it my moral obligation to tell you you overpaid, or can I just smile and say thanks?<< I think that example misses three points. One, you owe the $10 until you claim you owe the $5. Two, I believe you can file an amended claim later. Three, if as you put it, the difference is the time and money you spend on finding out what you owe, then, blame the guy in the mirror for not doing that.

165 they keep taking away all kinds of tax breaks. for example, I lived in a co-op apt. took away all the tax breaks. Taxes are incentives. Not revenue generators. If they can avoid taxes, they should and I would too. Good for everyone that avoids tax. The multiplier of government spending is 0.

166 How come an "equal" share and a "fair" share are not the same amount?

And if life isn't fair, how can anything be equal?

167 A fair share of their profits is whatever is needed to fund social, economic, and environmental justice. The poor have suffered disproportionately from the Republican right-wing machine's crimes against Mother Earth. Corporations owned by International Bankers have dumped pollution in minority neighborhoods and poor countries, and those cleanup costs need to come from those responsible.

168 Party of stupid strikes again. We keep playing by Queensbury rules. They don't. Facebook co-founder Chris Hughes, is a major Obama supporter and is a big reason he's our president. Hughes is now the owner of The New Republic, and has turned it into the latest Obama fanzine. Obama's entire campaign was built around the insinuation that Romney is for the 1%, the millionaires and billionaires, but Lil' Bama is for the regular folk. Well bullshit. I don't care about principle - these fuckers are all about 'paying fair share' and Facebook isn't doing that. Alinsky time - time to put their faces in it, like the kitty that pooped on the living room rug.

169 One, you owe the $10 until you claim you owe the $5. Two, I believe you can file an amended claim later. Three, if as you put it, the difference is the time and money you spend on finding out what you owe, then, blame the guy in the mirror for not doing that. Posted by: Chris Balsz at February 16, 2013 07:31 PM (9kJ7T) ---- But that doesn't address the question I'm raising: 1) It doesn't make sense to me that the person who sets the amount owed should be absolved of ensuring that the debtors knows what that amount is and pays only that amount. It's kind of like being a loan shark, except in that case the lender is responsible for doing due diligence before making a voluntary choice to incur debt. In the case of taxes, however, we're at the total mercy of the government, which should exist to serve citizens, not to fleece them for its own benefit and at the expense of their time and money. 2) Again, at the expense of your time and money and on the condition of your knowledge of the Byzantine tax code. 3) Again, confiscatory taxation isn't a voluntary arrangement entered into by self-interested free individuals who set their own terms. It's the action of a government that's supposed to represent the interests of its people. In the former case, due diligence makes moral sense, and if you get screwed, yes, you're at fault. In the latter, however, it's an abuse of an asymmetrical power relationship.

170 They publish everything for your perusal. I think their practice of repudiating their own "letters" is more abusive than just expecting you to read the Revenue Code. If you mean the IRS should help you fill out the most fun and affordable return, they don't have the manpower. They would have to have as many agents as there are paid tax preparers, and then some, to cover all the folks who don't hire tax preparers. These are arguments to simplify the Code. But the idea the "loopholes" aren't fair because some people do better at them than the average Joe because of the time and trouble they put in, then, most of life is unfair.

171 What is fair? Bureaucrats and Congress wasting some $600+ billion a year as identified years ago by the CBO? Is that fair? Before we concede the idea of a tax increase, the government must be required to prove to us, the long suffering taxpayer, that they actually have properly used the money in the first place. But then Obama and Reid with the full knowledge of the CBO report continue to insist that raising taxes is "balanced". What they display by this song and dance is to cover up their incompetence and their utter distain for the taxpayer. False moralizing is disgusting when done by anyone, how much more so when done by the POTUS and the leader of the Senate. The solution to this problem is rather simple on it's face and the GOP Congress under Clinton achieved a balanced budget by 2000 using it. The only thing that stands in the way is a spendthrift POTUS and Senate. The Sequester does not cut ONE dollar of actual spending, it only cuts the rate of GROWTH and yet we see liberals screaming the children and old people are going to die. It is this faux moralizing that keeps the country from addressing the real issues. Is it fair that spendthrifts and faux self moralizing people demand we pay more when they themselves will evade any tax increase?

172 Loop holes are put there to distract you from the fact the government is trying to wring as much of your hard earned money out of you as possible. It's supposed to make you think you've actually gotten to keep some of your own money by nefarious means. because the only way you can do it is to pay someone else to figure it out for you.