1 Think we're new at this?

2 Wait, you're saying JFK had bad judgement?  Why does no one ever tell me these things!

3 Springtime for Hitler, and Kennedy....

4 Come on. Next thing you will be telling me he was a drug addict and serial philanderer.

5 Also, he was gettin' him some pretty sweet fraulein ass down in the Fuhrer bunker...

6 A Reminder: Memorial Day is for those who gave All, Veterans Day is for those who gave some.

7 Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do to help the Nazis exterminate the J00z.

8 It's springtime for Hitler and Camelot....

9 Another 'liberal' as fascist lover.

Color me surprised.

10 Sounds like the makings of a true bromance...

11

>>>"to emerge in a few years as one of the most important personalities that ever lived.'

 

To be brutally frank, this is correct. Who would argue the 20th century wasn't dominated by Hitler, his actions, the aftermath of it, the response to it? Redrew maps worldwide, moved whole populations, brought about the A-bomb, etc

12 Not  a  surprise  at  all. 

13

Nazis, and East German spies/mistresses.  JFK did love his Germans.

14 He liked pussy more, though.

15 Profiles In Courageous Goosesteps.

16 I guess it wasn't luck of the draw he served in the Pacific.

17 A Jew hating Democrat? SHOCKA!!

18 'The Germans really are too good - therefore people have ganged up on them to protect themselves.' To be fair, that's just the sort of twaddle you'd expect from a 20-yr-old. I'd hate to read my own notes from my travels around Germany.

19 Hitler fooled a LOT of people. Hmmm, why'zat sound familiar?

20

Apple->Tree

-> = not far

21 A Reminder: Memorial Day is for those who gave All, Veterans Day is for those who gave some. Cesar Chavez Day (Aug 31) is for those who take, take, take.

22 His first marriage was to a Nazi "spy". They had it

annulled and kept secret. And no it wasnÂ’t Jackie

23 And here I thought "PT 109" was a historical movie. I guess they forgot to put him in a German uniform.

24 Oh, and hey - wasn't Obama compared to Kennedy, amongst others like FDR, early on? Maybe just trying to soften the gut punch of what's being revealed next? Maybe that LAT vid is finally coming out.

25

I'm not a big fan of JFK (at all) but, eh. He was like 20 at the time.

 

I can't exactly recall my thought on politics and philosophy when I was 20, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of scoring some ass.

26 Probably why he was sent to the Pacific Theater.

27 >>>To be brutally frank, this is correct. Who would argue the 20th century wasn't dominated by Hitler, his actions, the aftermath of it, the response to it? Redrew maps worldwide, moved whole populations, brought about the A-bomb, etc nah. I get what you're saying and I almost didn't quote this part because of that-- that it is undeniable Hitler is "one of history's most important personalities." But one cannot mistake the tone of approval here, especially when read in series with his other statements.

28 The real key to Hitler's rise to power?

Hitlerphones.

29 The way in which we treat our most reprehensible citizens defines us as a nation.

Manson for President!

30 I, erah, thought Mary Joe was a Jew.

31 "Errr...uh,  Sprechen sie  dick  fraulein?"

32 Why are we surprised? Scratch a liberal, reveal a fascist.

33 Can you imagine how many of Kennedy's biographers and official historians must have seen these documents and to have chosen, deliberately, not to publish or publicise them?

34 So he was a good Democrat, even back in the 30's. Apparently even he realized that they were serious about the "Socialist" part of "National Socialism".

35 i told you and I told you... look at you now!  You'll come around to my line of thinking eventually, when the weight around your neck finally pulls your head into the water. The weight of all those upper echelon parasites, watering their inner city vote gardens with your very own earnings so they can harvest their next wagu beef meal ticket from the sweat of your brow.  Build some smokestacks!  you know you want to!

36 Ich bin ein Nazi!!!!!

37 Mmm. Good Wiener schnitzel. I mean, chowdah.

38 Next thing you know,   we'll find out the Jesse Jackson III held similar beliefs as his Reverend father. At least regarding poontang.

39

Slaveholder - Klansman -  Progressive - Nazi - Stalinist - Democrat

Timeline

40 Actually, Kennedy was confused. He thought Hitler was with the National Bocialist Party....

41 Here's where I need to tread carefully. - I do think JFK is overrated, and wouldn't be nearly as admired had he lived. - I detest Naziism (and would never have been born had it been allowed to run its course). But I don't think this line, in 1937, is all that damning: 'What are the evils of fascism compared to communism?' JFK asked this before the Holocaust and before WWII. Robert Conquest, asked in the 1990s who was worse, Stalin or Hitler, unhesitatingly answered Hitler. Asked why, he said, "I don't know. I feel it." I think that's a reasonable answer once the enormity of each was known. Mind you, I think JFK's admiration for the Nazis was foolish even at the time, but that's the trap you can fall into if you admire how a government and a leader can transform a society. Which I don't, JFK did, and today's liberals do - but I'm getting into Jonah Goldberg territory here.

42 In my great grandfather's scrapbooks I found a large number of editorials from the mid-late 1920s praising the hell out of the Fascists in Italy and urging all Americans to donate money to them as the Italian-Americans were doing. Among these pro-Fascist editorials was one from the NY Times, which gave me a giggle. But there is an explanation. First of all, before it became a dirty word, "fascist" was simply a Latinate word for "shield" (not true Latin but any Italian would have got it.) The Fascists led by Mussolini presented themselves as Italy's one and only hope for keeping the Communists out-a very real threat at that time, especially in the north. I know that my ancestors raised and donated a ton of money to Mussolini's Fascists, they were rabidly anti-Commie (I must have inherited that DNA.) Many Italian-Americans did the same. This was well before the rise of Hitler. Yep. the Times was anti-Commie then.

43 I agree with the other commenters. I'm not wild about holding some 20-year-old accountable for random musings in journal, especially given that he was no doubt still heavily under his father's influence.

44 I can't exactly recall my thought on politics and philosophy when I was 20, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of scoring some ass. Posted by: Jollyroger at May 24, 2013 11:12 AM (t06LC) I'm not that far removed from 20 and my thoughts now aren't that different than they were then. Just more crystallized and vocalized. "Youthful idiocy" doesn't excuse support/approval of fascism.

45

I'd let JFK give me the dirty sanchez any day.

46 "'Who has visited these two places can easily imagine how Obama will emerge from the hatred currently surrounding him to emerge in a few years as one of the most important personalities that ever lived.'" --msm refrain for 4 years

47 Speaking of Joes,    it's   become  obvious that   Senator Joe McCarthy was correct about Washington D.C. and Hollywood being overrun by commies. He was just off with his timing.

48 Blue State Rebel-

My grandparents were Italians who both came over on the boat well before WWII.  My mother told me once about how she was explicitly warned by her parents to stay well away from one particular building, becuase that was where the commies hung out.

49

 I can't exactly recall my thought on politics and philosophy when I was 20, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of scoring some ass.

Posted by: Jollyroger at May 24, 2013 11:12 AM (t06LC) 

 

I'm 53 and that is what I think about. Ass not Fascism

50 He was a democrat, of course he did.

51

>>>"to emerge in a few years as one of the most important personalities that ever lived.'

To be brutally frank, this is correct. Who would argue the 20th century wasn't dominated by Hitler, his actions, the aftermath of it, the response to it? Redrew maps worldwide, moved whole populations, brought about the A-bomb, etc

 

Posted by: Bigby's Idle Hands at May 24, 2013 11:09 AM (3ZtZW)

 

I forget which biographer - it might have been Ian Kershaw, but I want to say Joachim Fest - wrote that, had Hitler died in 1937, he would be  remembered as one of the greatest Germans of all time.

52 WTF is that at #36?

53

@48

 

I think declassified papers here and from the KGB shows he was right then. The problem is that it has gotten worse.

54

>>>But one cannot mistake the tone of approval here, especially when read in series with his other statements.

 

Not arguing otherwise.

55 I also gave a speech in Berlin. It was VERY well received. I'm loved ALL over the world folks.

56 I can't exactly recall my thought on politics and philosophy when I was 20, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of scoring some ass.

Posted by: Jollyroger at May 24, 2013 11:12 AM (t06LC)


I'm 53 and that is what I think about. Ass not Fascism

Posted by: Misanthropic humanitarian at May 24, 2013 11:19 AM (HVff2)

*high fives*

It never goes out of style.  Ass, not fascism.

57 49 Blue State Rebel- My grandparents were Italians who both came over on the boat well before WWII. My mother told me once about how she was explicitly warned by her parents to stay well away from one particular building, becuase that was where the commies hung out. We should thank them for passing down their hatred of Communism to us, il mio amico! My dad's family came over in 1883, from Calabria. Ellis Island didn't even keep records then. They HATED Commies with a passion. Makes me proud.

58 Next thing you know, we'll find out the Jesse Jackson III held similar beliefs as his Reverend father. And Obama, Jr as his father.

59 It never goes out of style. Ass, not fascism. Posted by: EC at May 24, 2013 11:20 AM (GQ8sn) Gas, Grass or Ass, no one rides for free. Capitalism. It never goes out of style.

60 Well, it isn't as though JFK liked the Jews. I hate'em myself. Fucking Jews.

61 G. Gordon Liddy also tells the tale of JFK having to be 'saved '  from falling under the control of a Russian spy who had pretty lady parts. 

62 Kennedy was just expressing admiration for a fellow Reptilian shape-shifter...which I suppose is better than being a Grey.

63 Also: Not saying either were great shakes, but "what are the evils of fascism compared to communism?" Communism does have the higher bodycount, hands down.

64

Hitler did bring about the VW, the iconic hippie-mobile.

 

65

I recently read a book my great-grandfather wrote. He was from Norway and apparently participated and sent funds to the Finns to help fight off the Soviets in the winter war.

 

We've been at this battle a long time, though never on our own shores to the degree we find ourselves today.

66

OT- The SenateÂ’s immigration bill is getting a boost from Jeb Bush, the former GOP governor of Florida and a possible future candidate for the GOPÂ’s 2016 nomination.

“Thanks to the bipartisan work taking place in the House and Senate right now, I am encouraged Washington might pass comprehensive reform this year,”

This is why I hate the Bush family. Pretty soon they will be calling us racists again.

67
53 WTF is that at #36?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at May 24, 2013 11:19 AM (da5Wo)

It's commonly referred to as: stream of unconsciousness

68 A liberal in love with fascism?  I'm SHOCKED!

69

Considering how bad off Germany was after WWI, a facist government was what they needed to rebuild the country in record time.

 

Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens.  Accepting the premise that a more totalitarian form of control helped focus the populus of a defeated country is not the same as saying it's a good idea to gas Jews.

 

There are instances in today's societies that some countries are not ready for Jeffersonian democracy.  It's just a fact.

70 41 Actually, Kennedy was confused. He thought Hitler was with the National Bocialist Party.... --- He's not so sure about those boncentration bamps that Hilter and Ron Vibbentop have been discussing.

71 But I don't think this line, in 1937, is all that damning: 

'What are the evils of fascism compared to communism?'


That is how fascism sold itself.   Too bad it turns out that national socialism was just another flavor of socialism.  Thirsty for the blood of innocents.  

72

And I always thought it was just the southern democrats that harbored racist ideology. 

 

Actually, it's rather indicative of the modern democrat party, not just the racism, but the whole embracing of fascism.  The party is so far left now that it's become fascist.

 

73 Considering how bad off Germany was after WWI, a facist government was what they needed to rebuild the country in record time. Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens. Accepting the premise that a more totalitarian form of control helped focus the populus of a defeated country is not the same as saying it's a good idea to gas Jews. There are instances in today's societies that some countries are not ready for Jeffersonian democracy. It's just a fact. Posted by: jwest at May 24, 2013 11:23 AM (u2a4R) Well. I am totally and completely not shocked by this.

74 pre-war, Der Fuehrer had no shortage of admirers in the West. IIRC, he was even a TIME Man of the Year.

75 76 pre-war, Der Fuehrer had no shortage of admirers in the West. IIRC, he was even a TIME Man of the Year. --- But not twice!

76 Yeah, well JFK was killed by you Tea Party Wingnutz so what do you expect?

77 Not only would he have been 18 or 19 at the time, but he was Joe Kennedy's son.  He was expected to do certain things that your average teenager does not.  So while chasing strange tail in foreign lands, you say nice things about the hosts.

Most likely words put into your mouth. 

This is an interesting historical artifact, in other words.  Nothing more. 

78 Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens.

I've walked the grounds at Dachau, not gonna happen.

79 That is how fascism sold itself. Too bad it turns out that national socialism was just another flavor of socialism. Thirsty for the blood of innocents. I'm not trying to defend all they did, but the Fascists didn't just sell themselves that way, they actually DID keep the Communists out. Having studied that period of Italian history, I'd say it's at least a 90% chance the Commies would have overrun Italy if not for the fierce opposition of the Fascists.

80 wrote that, had Hitler died in 1937, he would be remembered as one of the greatest Germans of all time. Hmm. That would make an interesting alternate history.

81 Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao,  and Pol Pot.   Five men, who in pursuit of a leftist philosophy, killed more people   off the battlefield   than all the wars in the history of the world combined.

82 Considering how bad off Germany was after WWI, a facist government was what they needed to rebuild the country in record time.

Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens. Accepting the premise that a more totalitarian form of control helped focus the populus of a defeated country is not the same as saying it's a good idea to gas Jews.

There are instances in today's societies that some countries are not ready for Jeffersonian democracy. It's just a fact.



There is a difference between being wary of a fascist govt (that hadn't done anything yet) and showing admiration for them.

83 Youthful indiscretion, yes, I can relate to that

84 Considering how bad off Germany was after WWI, a facist government was what they needed to rebuild the country in record time. 

Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens. Accepting the premise that a more totalitarian form of control helped focus the populus of a defeated country is not the same as saying it's a good idea to gas Jews. 

There are instances in today's societies that some countries are not ready for Jeffersonian democracy. It's just a fact.


And look, it's mister "some people's bodies just want to die" here to tell us about the benefits of fascism.   

You don't seem to understand that it's exactly that totalitarian form of control that makes it possible and even desirable to gas the Jews. 

"I know I have absolute power and all, but we just can't do anything because of this inconvenient minority.   Oh, the wondrous things we could accomplish without them getting in the way!"  

85 >>pre-war, Der Fuehrer had no shortage of admirers in the West. IIRC, he was even a TIME Man of the Year. I don't want to brag but a couple years ago I was Time's Man of the Year.

86 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

87 Lots of pols admired fascism before WWII. They loved the mass organization and control that the state used to "better" society.

Sound familiar?

That's how the progressive movement really took off in the US.

They eventually ditched the mass murder and eugenics, but basically it's the same as O's "government is the one thing we all belong to" philosophy.

88 OT - but thumbs up to Columbia County (NY) DA Paul Czajka. He refused to prosecute Gregory Dean - the vicious bloodthirsty criminal who had two extra rounds in his magazine (for a total of OMG OMG OMG 9 rounds.)

89 79 Not only would he have been 18 or 19 at the time, but he was Joe Kennedy's son. He was expected to do certain things that your average teenager does not. So while chasing strange tail in foreign lands, you say nice things about the hosts. Most likely words put into your mouth. This is an interesting historical artifact, in other words. Nothing more. Posted by: BurtTC at May 24, 2013 11:26 AM (BeSEI) My understanding is that these were private writings, not public statements. Big difference.

90 I heard on CNN that Bush also liked the parts of the Hitler regime.

91 I grant JFK the 20 year-old dumbfuck exemption on the Nazi stuff.  You do have to give him credit for being a Democrat and yet not lovin' him some of that communism. 

92 They eventually ditched the mass murder and eugenics


Planned Parenthood.

93 82 wrote that, had Hitler died in 1937, he would be remembered as one of the greatest Germans of all time. Hmm. That would make an interesting alternate history. --- The easiest branch point would probably be him dying in a blast that happened at the pub where he gave a speech each year. The only reason he survived is that he wrapped up the speech much earlier than expected and left before it went off.

94 O/T

Just had a great, long Skype with our son, who is back at his duty station from Korea.

The Marines are PISSED as hell at TFG for the umbrella abuse.  Pissed. As. Hell.

95 78 Yeah, well JFK was killed by you Tea Party Wingnutz so what do you expect? Boooosh's fault. Seriously. One line of Conspiracy crazy-think actually claims that Bush 41 killed Kennedy. All based on a fuzzy photo of someone on Elm St. who looked nothing like George H.W.-whose whereabouts on that day were well-documented and he was nowhere near Dallas. But, blame Booooosh anyway, Libtards.

96 Can't wait to find out what kind of papers the esteemed Senator John Mc Lame leaves behind after he assumes room temperature. Probably something to the effect communism isn't bad except for the physical therapy practices and the over use of rice.

97 Kennedy was going to lose reelection in '64. Martyrdom saved his reputation.

98

@73

True, but we have a form of survivor's bias. We know that indisputably (some of us) now.

Europe then, or even now didn't have the philosophic foundations necessacary for a Jeffersonian democracy

99 I don't want to brag but a couple years ago I was Time's Man of the Year.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 24, 2013 11:28 AM (g1DWB)

Me too!

100 I'm not trying to defend all they did, but the Fascists didn't just sell themselves that way, they actually DID keep the Communists out. Having studied that period of Italian history, I'd say it's at least a 90% chance the Commies would have overrun Italy if not for the fierce opposition of the Fascists. 

Posted by: BlueStateRebel at May 24, 2013 11:27 AM (7ObY1)


In the context of the OP, we're talking about Germany's fascism.   East Germany didn't do too great after the war, on top of the whole master race and industrialized murder thing.  

101 In his book "The Three New Deals" Wolfgang Schivelbusch talks about the admiration that Roosevelt's aides and policy guys had for Mussolini and that other guy with the mustache.  Our academics and policy wonks have loved them some good totalitarian solutions for over a century now.

102 Besides, he dorked Marilyn Monroe so his judgment wasn't all bad.

103

>>>Considering how bad off Germany was after WWI, a facist government was what they needed to rebuild the country in record time.

 

This I don't know about. There weren't many Fascist gubmints out there so we can't compare effectiveness in the same way we can to Communism [which always FAILS].

 

We can look towards Italy [which didn't require gassing anybody] and Spain [which seems to have needed internal enemies for a time, then became isolationist]. Neither of those countries rebuilt all that quickly.

 

So is Fascism 'efficient' at rebuilding from nada or were the Germans merely the beneficiaries of wealth plundered from murdered jews and annexed countries? I think the latter.

104 When a youthful, impressionable JFK observed the rapt attention the older attendees gave to Herr Hitler during the Bohemian Grove pageant, he obviously grew to admire him. Actually, I don't think this is too far off, and should serve as a constant reminder that we must arm ourselves and be ready to kill those who would enslave us.

105 Maybe he'd just been talking to Margaret Sanger and W.E.B. Du Bois?

106

Communsim and Facism are equally bad and any 20 year old should have been able to see that.  Did JFK support Franco? 

 

Anyway,  a 20 year old would have to have been aware of the Brownshirts and the persecution of Jews in Germany for the last 5 years prior to 1937.

107 As far as making the excuse that he was just a 'kid' at the time -


Q: Where do old nazis come from
A: Young nazis


Might be a good time to review the story about that old nazi that shot up the holocaust museum in DC - he was a young nazi once, served in pacific in wwii, maybe for the same reason that kennedy did.

108

Prepare these facts for the Memory Hole.   They will never be publicized in the MSM, because they can't afford to let the JFK Camelot myth die.   No one will remember that Kennedy might have liked Hitler, just as they won't remember that he was a good friend of Joe McCarthy in the 1950s.  

 

Republicans always bad, Democrats always good.

 

Don't.   Interfere.   With.   The.   Narrative.

109 Kennedy was going to lose reelection in '64. Martyrdom saved his reputation. He should have come out as gay.

110 You don't seem to understand that it's exactly that totalitarian form of control that makes it possible and even desirable to gas the Jews.

"I know I have absolute power and all, but we just can't do anything because of this inconvenient minority. Oh, the wondrous things we could accomplish without them getting in the way!"

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at May 24, 2013 11:27 AM (A4irB)

 

I'm fairly confident that if I had absolute power I wouldn't suddenly develop a desire to gas Jews.

 

But I could be wrong.

111 84 -

By 1937 they had already very much ramped up their war production, against the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.  They had already re-occupied the Sudetenland, and were already isolating Jews and other undesirables in a manner that was clear to everyone. 

JFK's father would have known this, certainly. 

Churchill certainly knew it, even if the British government was sick and tired of hearing him go on and on about it.

The only reason JFK gets a pass for words in 1937 is if we assume he didn't have a choice, as a result of his youth, and was being told what to say by his father. 

112 The Nuremburg laws started in 1933. Maybe JFK wasn't focused on the Jews in Germany between 16 and 20 years old, but things had started to go bad earlier than 1937.

113 How dare you! HOW FUCKING DARE YOU CRITICIZE MY FUCKING HERO! I'M GOING TO KILL ALL YOU WINGNUTS!

114

3Springtime for Hitler, and Kennedy....

Posted by: Tex Lovera at May 24, 2013 11:07 AM (wtvvX)

 

 

By the way, this was genius.   Tex Lovera, you beautiful bastard, you!

115 JFK was,until the present shitstick defiled the WH, the single most overrated American EVAH.

116 JFK said and thought stupid shit when he was young? I was a passionate liberal when I was young, in my early twenties and teens. Part of it was because of my upbringing in a devoutly Democratic household and part of it was because I genuinely believed in it. Grasp of reason, facts, and evidence were not my strong points. I also had a fondness for hippy chicks. Sue me.

117 48 Speaking of Joes, it's become obvious that Senator Joe McCarthy was correct about Washington D.C. and Hollywood being overrun by commies. He was just off with his timing. Posted by: Roy

Yeah.  The problem is just that him and his cohorts tried to turn it into a personal power grab and it subsequently got out of hand.  Made the optics of the whole situation bad and seem totally unjustified.

118 The thing about the fascism vs communism is that they are two peas in a pod.

You can oppose communism and support fascism, and you are still wrong.

119 114 -

Oops, I meant the Rhineland.  Not Sudetenland. 

120 Here's a fun thought experiment: try (mentally, and completely theoretically) to map Germany's rise from the ashes of WW1 without war. Now do it without changing anything the allies did after WW1. I think its easy, from 2013, to look at pre-WW1 Germany and say "man, they were evil!" I'm not so sure it would have been nearly as easy from, say, 1936-1937. It probably would have been easy starting in, say, 1939. Maybe as early as (just throwing it out there...) November 1938. But 1936-1937? I'm not so sure. My grandparents never really talked about politics at all, especially politics of the 1930s & 1940s, but what I was able to pick up from them, almost no one in the US was particularly concerned by Germany's shift to fascism. Mostly, those who were concerned, were concerned in theory- they knew it could be dangerous- not that it would be. Of course, anyone supporting Hitler or Nazi Germany after finding out about the death camps and the Holocaust needs to be hung up by their ear-lobes. But 1937? I'm not so sure we can say, "Man, that was evil!"

121 I'm fairly confident that if I had absolute power I wouldn't suddenly develop a desire to gas Jews.But I could be wrong. 

Posted by: jwest at May 24, 2013 11:32 AM (u2a4R)

"inconvenient minority" is anybody.  

For example, Grandma, who "wants to die", per jwest's mindreading skills.    She's sucking away your socialized medical healthcare dollars, kill her already!  

122 Sue me.

We'd rather just sit down for a nice audit.

123 Lunch. Imma get egg salad and poot in mah cubacle for teh laffs

124 91 -

Oh, I did not know that.  Yeah, that's different.  Probably still reflective of what daddy was telling him, but more troubling than if he was just playing nice while traveling through.

125 Keep in mind JFK is nowhere near the colossus they paint him as. Truth is he wasn't a very good president.

126 Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens.

I understand your point, but you are wrong.  It's like saying "try to separate the concept of a tiger from the teeth and claws".

127 Cesar Chavez Day (Aug 31) is for those who take, take, take.

Posted by: t-bird

***

 

The ironic thing is that he was AGAINST illegal immigration.

128

Did he mean "important" like "great" in the wand shop of Harry Potter?

JFK did serve against the, well, Japanese.  Hmmm.  

129 Bigotry was common place back then. 1937 was too soon to imagine what Hitler could/would do. Too many people were wrapped in his propaganda blanket and supported him as a result. JFK was young, and, yes, probably influenced by his family. Dunno. Don't think this is a really big deal. But, I do note that this is how the liberals smear our men of integrity. They throw stuff like this out there, then rewrite history. JFK has always been held higher than many men. In the end, he was just that, a man.

130 But 1937? I'm not so sure we can say, "Man, that was evil!" Editor's note from 2013: 1937 is five years into FDR's time at the helm of The First Great Depression.

131 The ironic thing is that he was AGAINST illegal immigration. --- Yep, unionization / organization depends on having a restricted labor base. If illegal immigrants show up and undercut your rates, you end up out of work.

132 If JFK said these comments, and it looks like he did, we can only conclude one thing: The Jews had it coming.

133

Sure, Hitler showed a bit of insensitivity towards certain groups, but you can't deny the guy knew how to pave a road.

 

Facism isn't the best form of government for the U.S. in 2013, but it was helpful to Germany in the 1930's.

 

 

134 This is not the JFK I knew.

135 Eh, voted for Nixon when I was that young so not exactly feeling judgmental. 

136

I can't really fault Kennedy. As mentioned he was 20.

For a bit of historical background, Kristallnacht did not happen until Nov of 1938. Hitler and national socialism had pulled the German economy into great prosperity (Keynes always did say his method would work in a totalitarian society), and it was the general consensus at the time among intellectuals that the revolutions of 1848 proved that the German people were incapable of having a democracy...that they thrived on a benevolent despot.

 

137

Couple points.

 

1. As pointed out above, JFK was barely 20 at the time.

 

2. He traveled from a country where the Depression was at its worst, with ca. 25% unemployment, to Germany, which despite losing WWI, having to pay crushing reparations and suffering hyperinflation because of it, by 1937 was back on its feet economically, with ca. 5% unemployment (IIRC). That had to make an impression.

 

3. Fascism was generally pretty popular then. FDR, for example, was a big admirer of Mussolini's. Fascism did not constitutively include anti-Semitism; that was Hitler's addition.

 

Further, anti-Semitism in the US was driven by the extreme left-wing (Communist) views commonly found among Jews then (and to some extent today). Jews were right off the boat (after the 1905 pogrom in Russia) when they began agitating for Communism, and native-born Americans resented it. (To put it into perspective, how do we feel about Muslims today? Right off the boat, want to impose sharia and Islam, and we resent it, right?)

 

Consequently, a lot of people were willing to overlook Hitler's anti-Semitism and look at how he'd turned Germany around from a destitute doormat into an apparently prospering powerhouse.

 

So all in all, different times, different situation. It's not fair to judge JFK back then, in his youth, by our standards today.

 

Having said that, I think he was a lousy President, whose reputation today largely relies on his failure to duck at the opportune moment.

138 We'd rather just sit down for a nice audit.

Posted by: IRS at May 24, 2013 11:35 AM (4WhSY)

 

You audited me last year. This time, kiss me first.

139 Well, the Nazis did have those cool salutes and fancy insignia.

140 Did he mean "important" like "great" in the wand shop of Harry Potter? Whenever I hear a leftroid say "imporant", it implies "praiseworthy". So...yeah.

141 There was evil being done to Jews before 1936 in Germany.

142 True, but we have a form of survivor's bias. We know that indisputably (some of us) now. Europe then, or even now didn't have the philosophic foundations necessacary for a Jeffersonian democracy 

Posted by: Jollyroger at May 24, 2013 11:29 AM (t06LC)


We have the benefit of hindsight, which makes it all the more damning that "we" elected our own "national socialist" and "Big Man" to power.


There's a fascinating parallel:
"another generation grew up, who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel."

We have our new generation that knows neither Liberty nor the cost of socialism.   

143 Eh, sometimes I think Churchill was completely alone in pegging Hitler from the beginning.

144 JFK was old Joe's plan B after young Joe bought it.
After that Dad was buyin',
nothing more really.

145 My grandparents were Italians who both came over on the boat well before WWII. My mother told me once about how she was explicitly warned by her parents to stay well away from one particular building, becuase that was where the commies hung out.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at May 24, 2013 11:19 AM (wtvvX)

My grandmother got the hell out of italy in 1938, she saw the writing on the wall and knew where it was all heading. Her sister stayed and ended up tattooed with this cool number that was all the rage at the time, and she was italian roman catholic. The kicker is they were both born here, and went back to italy when they were 1-2 years old. Granny saw both fascists and commies as out of their fucking mind. She was a life long republican. Go figure.

146 JFK was a neocon and founding member of the John Birch Society!

147

Jane D'oh,

 

I hope your son and his fellow Marines aren't pissed at the Corporal who held the umbrella. He was put in a really bad position.

148

On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. 

It's a silly hate filled  place.

149

150 Considering Joe Kennedy Jr was killed (albeit foolishly) in a raid against the Nazis, and JFK commanded (again, foolishly) a PT boat, I think I can probably excuse JFK's infatuation. Don't forget, before the war, Churchill was a marginalized, over-the-hill, depressive crank. Few heeded his warnings.

151 >>1937 was too soon to imagine what Hitler could/would do. >>Too many people were wrapped in his propaganda blanket and supported him as a result. Kind of hard not to be wrapped in Hitler's propganda blanket by 1937. The Reichstag fire was in '33 and as a result of that Hitler suspended many civil rights including banning "unfriendly" publications. Hmm, using the government to suppress beliefs unpopular to the government. Where have I heard of that before?

152 Boy, this pisses me off. The Micks should get back on the boats and go back where they came from.

153 Damn, that was a close one.

154 Editor's note from 2013: 1937 is five years into FDR's time at the helm of The First Great Depression. And? That might have been another reason a foreigner might like what he was seeing in Germany- especially one from the US. While we were still mired in the Great Depression (thanks, FDR!), Germany was rebuilding and moving out of its economic woes. Again- no defense of Germany here, but I don't find it so hard to see how Americans- even Americans who would, in just a couple years' time, come to hate everything Germany stood for- would find some things admirable in Germany in 1937.

155 So all in all, different times, different situation. It's not fair to judge JFK back then, in his youth, by our standards today. F--- that, I'm done being fair. Damnatio memorae, and all that.

156 I have no patience for anyone who extols the virtue of totalitarian governments. Living or dead.

157

I fucked that one up.   Damned  html tags.

158 Eh, voted for Nixon when I was that young so not exactly feeling judgmental.

Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at May 24, 2013 11:37 AM (epxV4)

 

Your vote wasn't wasted.  I can imagine what Humphrey and his cohorts would have done to the country.   Nixon is portrayed as paranoid but can that be the case when they were really out to get you.  

 

 

159

Chris Matthews hardest hit.

160 And? Just pointing out that it's going on today, too, five years into Obama's reign over The Second Great Depression.

161 As I pointed out earlier, Kennedy was saved by James Forrestal who transferred him to the South Pacific, and he actually had significant business interest in Germany, it's too easy a cheap shot at a 20 year old. I say this as someone who had a distant relative who was part of the beachhead as the Bay of Pigs.

162 Did you here Obama didn't return the salute of a Marine while boarding Marine One. But came back shook his hand and conversed with him. I wonder what did this marine do to have the Supreme Commander of Military Forces of America not salute him.
Did he:

A. run guns to mexican drug cartels
B. lie to the American people about terrorist attacks
C. have the irs investigate Americans he disagrees with
D. declare journalism illegal

I think this Marine has some questions to answer!

163 Hitler published Mein Kamf in 1925-26.  His anti-Semitism was well known by the late '30's.  Fuck JFK.

164 I have no patience for anyone who extols the virtue of totalitarian governments. *note to self: absolute power for toby928? bad idea*

165
So what, i was an admirer of ayatollah khomeini in my youth, big deal

166 I wonder what did this marine do to have the Supreme Commander of Military Forces of America not salute him. Refuse to hold the umbrella.

167 "Considering Joe Kennedy Jr was killed (albeit foolishly) in a raid against the Nazis..."

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at May 24, 2013 11:40 AM (Ec6wH)

 

Joe Kennedy, Jr. volunteered for an extremely dangerous mission, which he didn't survive. Saying he died 'foolishly' is unfair to his memory.

 

Not a big Kennedy fan, but courage is courage and he had it in spades.

168 Facism isn't the best form of government for the U.S. in 2013, but it was helpful to Germany in the 1930's.

Indeed

169

Support for Hitler in the West dropped in stages.   Invading various places and whatnot.   Everyone was in the French resistance, now.        

 

We like to pretend history is simple  (@141 would be a good jump off for discussion)  and when something like this comes out it unfairly paints someone I don't particularly like in an unfair light.

 

So meh? 

170 Just pointing out that it's going on today, too, five years into Obama's reign over The Second Great Depression. I hope I've learned at least most of the lessons that particular part of history teaches.

171

>>Fuck JFK.

 

 

On it. 

172

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at May 24, 2013 11:40 AM (/PCJa)

 

You mean they should overlook the fact that Jews had to flee their  own country  because they were able to build the Autobon?   That Hitler had violated the Versallis treaty and built up his military in plain site? 

 

Those people needed to find a clue and I suspect they would have fit  right in with the 52% today. 

173 *note to self: absolute power for toby928? bad idea* Indeed. Although a pyramid of skulls is not without a certain admirable beauty.

174 I heard also that Bush was invovled in a plan with Merkal to punish Isreal.

175 Lots of naive people were fooled by Hitler in the '30s. They all thought socialism was  hunky dory and national socialism was the thing for Germany. Hitler was charismatic, the German people loved him, Germany was recovering financially -- what's not to like? It was a rare person in those times who noticed that Hitler was telling them exactly what he intended to do and it was going to be horrific. Idealistic people fooled themselves about fascism just as they would later do with communism.

176 See? Told you.

177 151
Jane D'oh,

I hope your son and his fellow Marines aren't pissed at the Corporal who held the umbrella. He was put in a really bad position.

Posted by: ExSnipe at May 24, 2013 11:39 AM (PBm/l

Hell no.  They're pissed at the JEF.  Hate him with the heat of a million suns.

178 59 Next thing you know, we'll find out the Jesse Jackson III held similar beliefs as his Reverend father. And Obama, Jr as his father. Posted by: t-bird at May 24, 2013 11:20 AM (FcR7P) Frank Marshall?

179 Just had a great, long Skype with our son, who is back at his duty station from Korea.

The Marines are PISSED as hell at TFG for the umbrella abuse. Pissed. As. Hell.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 24, 2013 11:29 AM (lVPtV)

Jane,

I'm working on something now that will impress you, make you laugh and shout "oo rah" at the same time.

My stepson goes back to OK next Tuesday.  When he will return is a mystery.

180 Frank Marshall?

Posted by: BignJames at May 24, 2013 11:46 AM (20Mmk)

 

Or Malcolm X??

181 so i admired various marxists in my youth, big deal, nothing came of that

182 after reading 114, I retract my last comment. I forgot they already had the Sudetenland. I was thinking he was not to start his land grab till 38

183 You know, not many people know zis, but der Fuhrer was a terrific dancer.

184 Facism isn't the best form of government for the U.S. in 2013, but it was helpful to Germany in the 1930's. I think it might be better to say "it looked helpful to Germany in the 1930s." Look, defending Fascism is really pretty dumb. Just like communism (of which it is a close relative), and any other totalitarian society, it is bad- deep down in its roots its bad. Whatever short-term benefits it brings, the cost is far, far higher. However- we didn't have 100 years of history telling us that in 1937. We pretty well do here in 2013.

185 Lots of naive people were fooled by Hitler in the '30s. They all thought socialism was hunky dory and national socialism was the thing for Germany. Hitler was charismatic, the German people loved him, Germany was recovering financially -- what's not to like? It was a rare person in those times who noticed that Hitler was telling them exactly what he intended to do and it was going to be horrific. Idealistic people fooled themselves about fascism just as they would later do with communism. **** I'm getting the oddest sensation.... deja vu, I believe it is called.

186

I think its easy, from 2013, to look at pre-WW1 Germany and say "man, they were evil!" I'm not so sure it would have been nearly as easy from, say, 1936-1937.

 

Really?  Wilhelmine Germany "evil?"  You lost me there.

187
Jane,
I'm working on something now that will impress you, make you laugh and shout "oo rah" at the same time.
My stepson goes back to OK next Tuesday. When he will return is a mystery.

Posted by: EC at May 24, 2013 11:46 AM (GQ8sn

Cool.

Our son was on the DMZ and got to go into N. Korea (a building where negotiations are held that's half in S. Korea and half in North.  Also, made faces at a NORK who was observing him with binocs.  Did some war games, etc.  Enjoyed himself.

188

Another thing.   Many of you are comparing how 20 year olds are today with the 20 year olds in 1937.  

 

Needless to say a big difference in maturity,  both reality and expected.  

189 Frank Marshall Davis....couldn't remember his last name....crs.

190

"I have no patience for anyone who extols the virtue of totalitarian governments."

 

Every society doesn't progress at the same rate as the others.  Once there is an infrastructure of education and communication, coupled with a background of understanding the concepts of freedom and responsibility, a democracy is possible.

 

Until that level of civilization has been reached, other forms of government work better to keep people from living in shit and killing each other.

191 When Connelly told me the truth about Hitler, it blew my mind. (too soon?)

192 Didn't Ayn Rand write an essay "The Fascist New Frontier" in 1961? In fact I think she had a book proposal with that title that was shot down by her editor Bennet Cerf.

193 I'm getting the oddest sensation.... deja vu, I believe it is called.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 24, 2013 11:47 AM (piMMO)

What, you thought I'd read the other comments first?

194 His anti-Semitism was well known by the late '30's. Did anti-Semitism mean anything back then? Today 'anti-Semitism' brings Auschwitz to mind. What did it signify back then?

195 Our son was on the DMZ and got to go into N. Korea (a building where negotiations are held that's half in S. Korea and half in North. Also, made faces at a NORK who was observing him with binocs. Did some war games, etc. Enjoyed himself.

Haha, nice!  Did he show the NK soldier "The Shocker" hand gesture?

196 So I see it now...  Lee Harvey killed Kennedy because JFK rejected communism and embraced Hitler.  Hmmm.  Strange but ...

197

Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens.

I understand your point, but you are wrong. It's like saying "try to separate the concept of a tiger from the teeth and claws".

 

Not true, not true at all. Read Mussolini's writings (available free from archive.org), or those of his supporters at the time in Italy. There's not a whiff of anti-Semitism, or indeed racism against any group.

 

To my point above, recall that Germany came within a whisker of going Communist with the Spartacist attempted coup in 1919, when the Reds established a Soviet in Munich. The only thing that stopped them was the Freikorps (Army veterans), who rounded up and shot 700 Reds, many of them Jewish (including one of the leaders, Rosa Luxemburg, who with the other leader, Karl Liebknecht, became martyrs held in esteem by Reds to this day). That's why Jews were reviled by many in Germany, and one of the reasons Hitler was anti-Semitic: their heavy involvement in Bolshevism (something he cites repeatedly in Mein Kampf).

 

One last point. Paradoxically, Germany historically had been the least anti-Semitic country in Europe. Jews had been kicked out of Spain (and Portugal) in 1492 by the Inquisition, and neither France nor England (read Merchant of Venice for context) wanted anything to do with them. Only the German principalities (no country of Germany then) accepted them, and from Germany they moved east to Poland and then to Russia. But of all the countries (Spain, Portugal, France, England, Poland, and Russia), Germany was by far the least anti-Semitic historically.

198 To be fair, fascism was latest greatest form of communism to come down the pike from Europe. Mussolini was the Che of his day. Have to remember, it was the German National Socialist Workers Party. The problem with the dictatorship of the proletariat, as always, was that no proles wanted to climb on board being ruled by their betters (i.e., people who went to college and got degrees in worthless subjects or people who came from the right families). The right kind of people back then figured that maybe if they threw in a bone to the proles in the form of some nationalism, their brand of totalitarianism could stick. It is odd that JFK later became a reliable anti-communist. Or so his writings would indicate.

199 The German people  did not universally love Hitler.  Just the contrary.  He  had a group of die hards and was able to consolidate his power through violence and threat of violence.

200 No 'ovens' at Dachau--it was a labor camp, not an extermination camp like Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc


Dachau is kind of like where the progs want to send us ( unless we shut up and behave, etc )

201 Until that level of civilization has been reached, other forms of government work better to keep people from living in shit and killing each other. But totalitarianism is not one of them. It's just one of the myriad forms of monarchy where some lord it over others.

202 Meh. Young and foolish, and history proves that Hitler fooled a lot of better men (Time's man of the year, anyone? "Peace in our time"?).

203 Slightly OT, but if you grew up thinking Germans were on the way to democracy but their economy tanked and they got Hitler instead... fuggiddaboudit.  Read Rise and Fall of Third Reich, and you will see that the krauts loved them some strongmen to reinforce their identity as master race long before Corporal Shnickelgruber came along.

204 Did anti-Semitism mean anything back then? Today 'anti-Semitism' brings Auschwitz to mind. What did it signify back then?

Posted by: t-bird at May 24, 2013 11:49 AM (FcR7P)

--

Pogroms.

205 Second look at Hitler?

206

BULLET

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNFAuD3YWi0

207
Haha, nice! Did he show the NK soldier "The Shocker" hand gesture?

Posted by: EC at May 24, 2013 11:49 AM (GQ8sn

Heh.  Said his Sgt. told him, "I swear, if you start WW III I'll whip your ass."  While he was there, a buddy back at his duty station alerted him he was on a manifest to possibly go to Bangladesh to help with recovery.  He's relieved they didn't have to go.

208 **Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens.** Just like american commies (who've disowned that family branch of totalitarianism that the Germans adopted) are sort of like, we love Marxism but what is this you say about millions of dead Ukrainians? And Mao did what to what 50 million Chinese? Genocide is a feature, not a bug of the communist family of totalitarianism.

209 Paradoxically, Germany historicallyhad been the least anti-Semitic country in Europe. --- As pointed out by a guest lecturer in my WWII class. He said that, if you had told someone in 1845 that a European nation would commit the Holocaust, they would have said it was the French, not the Germans.

210 1935 nurember laws, who wouldn't like that ! shows vision....and superiority of the nordic race!

211 204 The German people did not universally love Hitler. Just the contrary. He had a group of die hards and was able to consolidate his power through violence and threat of violence.    

Posted by: polynikes at May 24, 2013 11:50 AM (m2CN7)

 

 

Yup... Hitler seized the reigns of Government... then created created  non Government groups to help stifle debate... and used the Levers of Government to silence the opposition...

 

Sound... familiar?

212 as always, read some Robert Conquest on this subject.

213 But 1937? I'm not so sure we can say, "Man, that was evil!"

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at May 24, 2013 11:34 AM (/PCJa)

Co-opting the political process through murder?

That's evil. And there was plenty of evidence by 1937 that the Nazis were doing exactly that.

Do you know when Dachau was opened?

1933.

214

Sure, Hitler showed a bit of insensitivity towards certain groups, but you can't deny the guy knew how to pave a road.

Facism isn't the best form of government for the U.S. in 2013, but it was helpful to Germany in the 1930's.

 

Posted by: jwest at May 24, 2013 11:37 AM (u2a4R)

 

I hope this is a joke.  Germany's knowing how to pave a road was mainly because of Fritz Todt and a conscripted work force, as well as Hitler needing to move army materiel quickly across the Reich.  The Hitler economy was all smoke and mirrors.  Read Kershaw or (especially) Evans for some grounding.

215 Moron Liberty Lover tweets: Doreen Dickson ‏@DoreenHDickson 29m Never bring a knife to a gun fight -->> Conservative groupÂ’s lawsuit targets IRS employees personally http://t.co/dzEjw4OhCB

216 You mean they should overlook the fact that Jews had to flee their own country because they were able to build the Autobon? That Hitler had violated the Versallis treaty and built up his military in plain site? Well, no. And you'll note I haven't said one word about the antisemitism. But I should also point out that a) much of the world hated the Jews back then (heck, much of it hates them *now*), and it's not exactly a secret that JFK was not their biggest fan. And b) the real bad stuff wasn't going to start happening to the Jews for more than a year from the time this letter is written. The Night of Broken Glass was in November 1938. The Holocaust (as I recall, someone tell me if my dates are wrong) didn't really get going until 1939. I don't think JFK did, but you can despise someone's personal views while admiring their policy, just as (say- with GWB) you can admire someone's personal views and character while disliking their policies. Mostly I put this down as "don't judge- cause you ain't got a clue." I can't say, sitting here safely in 2013 with the threat of Nazi Germany something I only know about from history books (and, I'll note, not really from history class- mostly just the books), whether I would have looked at Nazi Germany (from the outside) and said, "Hmmm, they must be doing something right."

217 Game was over for dissent when the German police had to report to the Gestapo.

218 For a view on how Democrats viewed Fascism in the early 1930s, I absolutely recommend you watch the movie "Gabriel Over the White House".  You can get the DVD from Amazon using the link from our gracious hostess.  The movie was made in 1933 and FDR was a consultant on the script.

Hitler was very talented in doing "charm offensives" on people he thought could be of use to him.  Part of the seduction included a visit to Hitler's place at Berchtesgaden which is mentioned in the article.  It would make sense that Hitler would find it worthwhile to charm the son of the American ambassador to Great Britain.  We know that Joe Kennedy was in favor of the US remaining at peace with Germany and that is why FDR eventually fired him.

While I am not really a JFK fan, I can't get too worked up at him being taken in by Hitler's charm when he was 20 years old.  Nevil Chamberlain was a lot older and more experienced and he was taken in by Hitler's charm as well.

219 "It is odd that JFK later became a reliable anti-communist. Or so his writings would indicate. Posted by: joeindc44 at May 24, 2013 11:50 AM " Well, it's less odd if you believe JFK was a privileged moron who got power based on populism and celebrity rather than consistent judgment. Plenty of idiots have considered Nazism an alternative to communism over the years. they are both the supremacy of the state over the governed. The differences are artificial.

220 @208 -- Leonard Peikoff's The Ominous Parallels talked about that as well, although Peikoff's anti-religious bent distracts from his key points. If Cpl Hitler had been taken out in in WWI, there would have been another Hegelian to take his place.

221 Is it Godwin's Law if we start with Hitler?

Because reading:

"Who has visited these two places can easily imagine how Hitler will emerge from the hatred currently surrounding him to emerge in a few years as one of the most important personalities that ever lived."

Reminds me of:

“I remember distinctly an image of--we were sitting on his couches, and I was looking at his pant leg and his perfectly creased pant,” Brooks says, “and I’m thinking, a) he’s going to be president and b) he’ll be a very good president.”

222 The German people did not universally love Hitler. Just the contrary. He had a group of die hards
----------------------
That has a familiar ring about it....

223

I don't think Adolf and Co. were real big on the Irish. 

But so many of them loved the nazis, mostly because they were not the British.

 

224 At least JFK wasn't a racist teabagger.

225 "Gabriel Over the White House" you right! I think Ace or a cob did a post on that little movie celebrating a president who finally went Bulworth.

226 meh.. a privileged 19-20 yr old kid wandering around Germany.. drinking beer and getting fraulein ass..  and visiting Hitler's homes. (Was Hitler there when he visited?)

I'm glad none of my writings from when I was 20 yrs old will never surface.. and/or no one would care!

227 yeah, Germany was not all that anti-Semitic because there weren't that many Jews in Germany by the late 1800s. 


Hitlers' model was the socialist Mayor of Vienna, who combined semi-thuggish tactics of mobilized 'workers' with nationalism and anti-Semitism.  Karl Luger, IIRC


Most of the Jews that Hitler murdered were in Poland and Russia, and elsewhere in eastern Europe.  It's what happens when you let a psychotic artist-wannabe with a tiny dick and syph run a country

228 What, you thought I'd read the other comments first? **** No! Not that. Your comment feels familiar, as if someone we all know has been applying the same tactics in sneaking "good" Socialism in on us.

229

Oh.... and Hitler used Identity Politics, to pit one group against the others...

 

Giving LEGAL and Governmental power to Advantage one Group over others...

 

Today, Gays, Women, and Minorities ALL have both special protections the Law (hate speech stuff)... and special BUSINESS Advantages given them by the Government (loans, and contract set asides).

230 I'm glad none of my writings from when I was 20 yrs old will never surface.. and/or no one would care! Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 24, 2013 11:55 AM (f9c2L) I did not write much then, but pictures, well that's another story

231 Well, it's less odd if you believe JFK was a privileged moron who got power based on populism and celebrity rather than consistent judgment.
--------------------
You left out political corruption/power

232 Really? Wilhelmine Germany "evil?" You lost me there. Da*n typso. I hate 'em. Pre-WW2 Germany. Which I suspect you knew.

233 People who find virtue in totalitarian systems are always people who imagine themselves in the ruling class. No one ever voted to send themselves to the camps.

234 Speaking of Hitler, Obama's approval is back at even stevens on Rasmussen (49-49). Interesting little nation we have here.

235

It's much scarier, and (should be) much, much more damaging that any given liberal walking down the street will tell you they admire all kinds of violent tyrants. They're all going to have something good to say about Che, Chavez, Castro (Because Health Care, You Guys!), etc. Some of the others (i.e. Anita Dunn) will even tell you they admire Mao.

 

And   about  Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and the rest of the Founders  they're all, "They all owned slaves."

 

What is it about human nature that so many are willing to embrace  servitude  and slavery    while those of us who wish to be free are   regarded as "extremists?"

236 In WWI and WII the Irish nationals did try to ally themselves with the Germans.  Their hatred of the British was that great.  Luckily them and the German agents sent to help were a trifle inept.  And the thing is, even if the Irish had kicked the British out; the Germans had plans of their own for Ireland including liquidating the few Jews living there.

237 Jeebus.  Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." 

238 when I was 20, all I wanted was tight pussy, comfortable shoes, and a warm place to shit

239

Also, Daily Mail, how many British royals had a thing for Nazism?  

 

That is one of the great weird  complex  stories of WWII.  Rudolf Hess flying to England, whaaaaat?

240 when I was 20, all I wanted was tight pussy, comfortable shoes, and a warm place to shit Posted by: Earl Butz, Sec of Ag at May 24, 2013 11:57 AM (omBWL) Kinda what all 20 year olds want

241

Imagine if we preserved for posterity the Facebook accounts today of president's from the future.

 

We're gonna have the future leader of the free world's tweets about a gnarly dump he took and how funny it was when Alan thought that one dude's dick was a shitake mushroom.

242 I think it's more apt to say "say what you like about the broken omelettes of X, but at least they finally put the right kind of people in charge (it's just too bad that the wrong kind of people are somehow still able to screw things up for everyone now that the right kind of people are in charge)" just like now, with Obama in charge, Boooooshhhhh is still there causing the jobs to no magically reappear*. * of course, once Obama's long sought 100,000 teachers and getting the rich to pay their fair share finally jobs bill gets passed**, that's all going to change. ** I mean, Obama's been tirelessly pushing the keystone of his 2012 campaign without stopping to worry about traditional liberal trojan horse items like gun confiscation or opening the borders to some 3rd world hell hole or gheys'nshit.

243 However- we didn't have 100 years of history telling us that in 1937. We pretty well do here in 2013. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at May 24, 2013 11:47 AM (/PCJa) Disagree. We have the entirety of human history telling us that totalitarian rule is bad.

244 Here's 'Gabriel Over the White House' on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDHqk7JIbM

245 Shitake--another word for hemorrhoids.

246 205 -

There are ovens at Dachau.  I've been there, I've seen them for myself. 

247 During that time, the daughter of the US Ambassador, turned our embassy in Berlin into a whorehouse. What a disgrace!

248 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." Bwaaaa-haaaaaaaaa! What are the chances he "asks" them (NOAA are the ones who choose those, right?) to change that name? Also- I want to start naming hurricanes after things- preferably nice, comfortable things. Just so one year I can say (with a completely straight face) "Cake is bad," or "Ice Cream is evil."

249 **You left out political corruption/power** say, why were there two Russo's on the ballot in Boston back then?

250 Green and Kathleen
http://www.ww2f.com/topic/3963-operation-kathleen-ira-and-nazis/

251

Hitlers' model was the socialist Mayor of Vienna, who combined semi-thuggish tactics of mobilized 'workers' with nationalism and anti-Semitism. Karl Luger, IIRC

 

Yes, Karl Lueger.  Read the book Hitler's Vienna for a lot more on the subject.

252 254 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." Bwaaaa-haaaaaaaaa! What are the chances he "asks" them (NOAA are the ones who choose those, right?) to change that name? Also- I want to start naming hurricanes after things- preferably nice, comfortable things. Just so one year I can say (with a completely straight face) "Cake is bad," or "Ice Cream is evil." --- I don't think he'll ask them to change that one, at least not directly. I just expect him to game the system so that they can quickly find two low-end tropical storms which won't reach hurricane strength, so that the first "real" hurricane of the season would be C or higher.

253 I've been to Hitler's Eagle's Nest.  Nice piece of real estate. 

We had a landlord in Mainz while waiting on housing on base in Wiesbaden who was a nasty piece of work.  A Nazi. 

254

Facism may arguably  have been good for Germany in 1930, but today, I would say that a monarchy would be good for a number of third world countries.

 

It should be a competition of the world's wealthiest people.  The ultimate status symbol should be your own country, taken over by force or by the will of the residents.

 

Just imagine how much fun it would be to watch countries run by Bloomberg and Kochs compete to be better.

255 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." Somebody is about to get bounced and bounced hard from the Nat'l Weather Service.

256

Do you know when Dachau was opened?

1933.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 24, 2013 11:52 AM (O6Tmi)

 

Yes, but do you know why? It was to detain socialists and Communists, not Jews, and it was not a death camp at that point. It was initially more like internment of the Nisei here during WWII. Considering that Germany had faced running street battles between the Communists and their political opponents for a decade, they were probably pleased by this.

 

In fact, one driver of support for the Nazis were that they were apparently the only party that could stand up to KPD thuggery and fight the Reds toe to toe. The SA was founded just to protect Nazi meetings from being broken up by the KPD, which broke up the meetings of all other parties.

 

This is also why industrialists eventually came to support Hitler: they saw their choices as Hitler, or the Communists, and they knew what had happened to industrialists in Russia.

257 We have the entirety of human history telling us that totalitarian rule is bad. I don't think we do. Even most "absolute monarchies" were not totalitarian in the way that Communism and Fascism are. For the most part, the Monarchs just let people go about their business. They had some ideas that seem weird to us (about divine right to rule, the separation of the classes, etc.), but people generally had some amount of freedom. In fact, it was an unusual and extraordinarily burdensome infringement on that freedom that got the original Tea Party rolling. The french didn't revolt against the crown because they suddenly thought: "Totalitarianism Bad!!!" but because the French Crown suddenly started turning totalitarian.

258 We have the entirety of human history telling us that totalitarian rule is bad.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at May 24, 2013 11:59 AM (da5Wo)

It's not complicated, and the people who try to make it complicated are fellow travelers.

259

Again,  20 years old today are not the same as 20 year olds in 1937.  

 

 

260 Jane, I guess one of Gaylord's fans at NOAA wants Hurricane Barry to pillage the red states for daring to stand up against Lord Gaylord Focker the Incompetent Boob.

261 Pre-WW2 Germany.

Which I suspect you knew.

 

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at May 24, 2013 11:56 AM (/PCJa)

 

I thought so, Allen, but the post wasn't clear to me.

262 Utterly OT, but I have two bits of outstanding news. To me at least. The eldest daughter, who's 6, had her first tryout yesterday. She loves to dance. This past year she's been a part of the company dance team at a local studio. In the past, the company dance team was by invite. This year, the invites were to tryout. Just found out she made it. The bossman, my grandfather, has made the executive decision that we will be closed on Monday. Excellent.

263 I don't even believe those polls about Obama's numbers.

264 266 Jane, I guess one of Gaylord's fans at NOAA wants Hurricane Barry to pillage the red states for daring to stand up against Lord Gaylord Focker the Incompetent Boob.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 24, 2013 12:03 PM (ay226

It would be horribly ironic if it slammed into NJ and NY. 

265 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." *** It will miss the targets for landfall by several days and then hover in one place, spewing out hot air and empty threats of strengthening for hours on end. Then, finally, it will just whined down and be remembered as a do-nothing blowhard.

266 As others have noted, fascism was popular, especially among some in the international-leaning elite (yes, I know you don’t like that word). I picked up a book called “World Chancellories” at a library book sale several years ago. It’s a collection of interviews with world leaders in the twenties, done by the Chicago Daily News and my fictional middle forebear, Edward Price Bell. The book is subtitled “ Sentiments, Ideas And Arguments Expressed By Famous Occidental And Oriental Statesmen Looking To The Consolidation Of The Psychological Bases Of International Peace.” In an interview titled “Italy’s Rebirth”, Bell writes this: “They call him dictator. To the unpatriotic, to the anti-social and anti-civilized, to the lawless, to the bolshevists, he is dictator. To Italy—full of sterling human worth—to Italy, in my judgement, Mussolini is liberator.” And there’s a lot of that sentiment throughout, including about Hitler. I can’t tell if the writers truly liked these leaders or if they thought that praising them would improve the prospects of world peace. Either way, they couldn’t have been more wrong.

267 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at May 24, 2013 12:03 PM (/PCJa)

Absolute Monarchies?

You mean where the king could do whatever he wanted? Where people were bound to the land, and could be bought and sold and killed at the whim of the lord of that land?

Sorry, but that is totalitarian, and it's against the laws of God and the natural law of man.

268

So  true, Johnny.

 

And  how  about  that  Grand  Mufti  of  Jerusalem.  What  a  charismatic figure.  The  Arabs  are  simply  too  good, so  people  have  ganged  up  on them.

269 Apparently my computer thinks I am trying to solve the P versus NP problem Fuck!! I'm just working in damn Excel you POS!!

270

For a view on how Democrats viewed Fascism in the early 1930s, I absolutely recommend you watch the movie "Gabriel Over the White House". You can get the DVD from Amazon using the link from our gracious hostess. The movie was made in 1933 and FDR was a consultant on the script.

 

Also available free from YouTube. Creepy, but highly instructive, and well worth watching.

271 Congrats, BCochran!

272 Lenin used German gold and hired thugs to scare the moderates away from Kerensky.  The moderates were the ones who also had jobs so as the Russians thrashed over forming a new government, the thugs and pressing need to return to earn money worked in Lenin's favor.

273 Hitler went Jew crazy as soon as he got in in 1933. http://goo.gl/KLTYV JFK had to be blind not to see where it was headed and even if not, the laws themselves were disgusting (then again so were our jim crow laws).

274 Posted by: BCochran1981 at May 24, 2013 12:04 PM (da5Wo)

Wrapped around her little finger I see.

Congratulations!

275 262 -

Hey!  You know what else is true about communists running around in Germany in the 30s?  They were all considered to be synonymous with Jews!!

You seem to be doing some creative twisting  with your facts, bud.  I'm not sure why. 

276

The Nuremberg Laws were  implemented in   1935, generally considered the it's-freaking-obvious point, in hindsight.   Czech invasion in March of 1939.  Poland later that year.  

 

OTOH, are the Nuremberg Laws more or less draconian than, say, the Muslim Brotherhood view on Jews?    More or less  of a warning?

 

Hint: Gharkad Tree Hadith featured prominently in their documents.      

277 He was widely admired, until that customer service incident with the Jooos.

278 Facism isn't the best form of government for the U.S. in 2013, but it was helpful to Germany in the 1930's.

I think it might be better to say "it looked helpful to Germany in the 1930s."


Jumping off a skyscraper is very helpful.  You go a lot faster than the elevator. 

279 Congrats on the daughter BC. Regarding Monday off, have you checked this out. http://tinyurl.com/72hpcz9

280
There are ovens at Dachau. I've been there, I've seen them for myself.


To dispose of the remains of imprisoned workers who died,  As usual, you miss the point.

281 The eldest daughter, who's 6, had her first tryout yesterday. Wow, my first tryouts were in college. (no, not for dance) and I played a lot of sports. What happens to the six-year-olds who didn't make it? "Oh, well, time to start taking kindergarten seriously"

282 Boooosh's fault. Seriously. One line of Conspiracy crazy-think actually claims that Bush 41 killed Kennedy. All based on a fuzzy photo of someone on Elm St. who looked nothing like George H.W.-whose whereabouts on that day were well-documented and he was nowhere near Dallas. And that's because Hitler was a Republican.

283 Jane it would be horribly ironic.  Hurricane Barry, a Cat I downpour, washes Bloomberg and Weiner away.

284 Jumping off a skyscraper is very helpful. You go a lot faster than the elevator. Clever that.

285 Hitler was a Republican. That tea bagging motherfucker.

286 He was widely admired, until that customer service incident with the Jooos. *** Nazis? #HorribleCustomerService

287 59 Next thing you know, we'll find out the Jesse Jackson III held similar beliefs as his Reverend father.

And Obama, Jr as his father.

Posted by: t-bird at May 24, 2013 11:20 AM (FcR7P)

Both fathers.

288 290 Jane it would be horribly ironic. Hurricane Barry, a Cat I downpour, washes Bloomberg and Weiner away.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 24, 2013 12:08 PM (ay226

And Christie.  Heh.

289 Wrapped around her little finger I see. Congratulations! Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 24, 2013 12:07 PM (O6Tmi) *sigh* Indeed. My wife called and put her on speaker phone... "DADDY I MADE IT!!!!!" I almost screwed up my response but I caught myself. "I'm always proud of you, but I'm very happy for you that you made it. I knew you'd do great."

290 So who is impersonating debunked and discredited hack David Irving?

291 287 -

Is that supposed to be a joke?

292 Where people were bound to the land, and could be bought and sold and killed at the whim of the lord of that land? But most people weren't and couldn't be. At least, not by "tradition" (which meant something else back then). Check that- most people were, simply because most people were serfs (in absolute numbers), but peasants (who made up the vast majority of the rest) were not bound to the land- they were free men (as opposed to "freed men"- former serfs or slaves). Even serfs had some protections- they could not be bought or sold as slaves, you could not kick them off the land, and so forth. I never said it was "nice," just that it was not the same as Communism and Fascism where everyone (except the party leaders) are slaves of the state. And, in fact, my point was exactly that- the Absolute Monarchies weren't "nice." They weren't even "right." But they were absolutely no preparation for the evils Communism and Fascism would bring.

293 congrats on both BC party on!

294

@274

 

But the basis for natural law really begins in the enlightenment. That puts it mid 1700s.

 

Really America was the only successful experiment after France went Napoleonic. We weren't looking too ascendant in the 30's.

 

I agree with you in every point of course, and even devoid of results I feel you are philosophically correct, but I have to discount heavily due to the hindsight factor.

295   And that's because Hitler was a Republican. 

Posted by: Total moonbat non sequitur at May 24, 2013 12:08 PM (W6bkf)

I hear he drank tea. 

We all know what that means.  

296 Mrs. D'oh glad to hear the good news about your son.

297 242 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry."

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 24, 2013 11:57 AM (lVPtV)

please let it hit Chris Christie's house

please let it hit Chris Christie's house

please let it hit Chris Christie's house

298 BCochran is happy right now for his daughter, wait until the bills come in for her new attire....  hide the rubbing alcohol. 

299 Hell no. They're pissed at the JEF. Hate him with the heat of a million suns.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 24, 2013 11:46 AM (lVPtV)

Kind of like my next door neighbor, who is a retired 0-5 Marine.

300 I've walked the grounds at Dachau, not gonna happen. Posted by: Blanco Basura at May 24, 2013 11:27 AM (4WhSY) The Nazis in Germany threw Jews into ovens; the Fascists in Italy did not.

301 ***You know what else is true about communists running around in Germany in the 30s? They were all considered to be synonymous with Jews!!** It is funny, how the joooos seem to love socialists. Ok, not funny, but you know. Anyway, just reminds me of the scene in War and Remembrance in which the learned old jewish guy is too much of a fat big brain to side with America, dismissing WWII as being about "the hegemony" and not seeing a difference between the two sides. He was the right kind of person until suddenly he wasn't.

302 242 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." Won't he get pissy when he sees that they used male names for A) and C)...? (lol)

303 Jeebus. Second hurricane name this season is "Barry." Better stock up on assault umbrellas. Could be some light showers headed our way.

304 I hear he drank tea.
We all know what that means.

Probably had cats, too.  Blondie was his beard.

305 Chris Christie can not be washed away by a Cat 1 hurricane. Nope, can't happen. FF

306 305 BCochran is happy right now for his daughter, wait until the bills come in for her new attire.... hide the rubbing alcohol. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 24, 2013 12:12 PM (ay226) Lol. $100 for the Fall, same for the Spring. Plus she has to take at least one class at the studio. Which is like $50 for each session. Costume is included in the $100, but the standard leotard, shoes, etc....prob another $50-100 between both sessions.

307 #40 Except it's not so much a progression as a layering. Democrats never give up a vice.

308 Chris Christie could however float away.

309 Brad, you genius, was Dachau a labor camp or an extermination camp?

310 new thread up

311 Apparently my computer thinks I am trying to solve the P versus NP problem Fuck!! I'm just working in damn Excel you POS!! WHAT?! Fuck that, I'm going back to the P vs NP...

312 Hurricane Barry is now named Hurricane Buuuuuuuuuuuushhh.

313 Christie can use his loose skin to 'shelter in place.' Just stake the fucker to the ground and you can fit a small community under there.

314 Hanna Reitsch, Werner von Braun and the operation paperclip boys, come on, his infatuation didn't end in the 30's.

315

The problem with the dictatorship of the proletariat, as always, was that no proles wanted to climb on board being ruled by their betters (i.e., people who went to college and got degrees in worthless subjects or people who came from the right families). The right kind of people back then figured that maybe if they threw in a bone to the proles in the form of some nationalism, their brand of totalitarianism could stick.

 

Not really true. Reds had given up on dictatorship of the proletariat even before the Russian Revolution. Workers generally weren't interested in or capable of leading the country; once their own situation improved, they were happy and stood down. That's why Lenin started babbling about a "revolutionary vanguard" to lead the proletariat to socialism, because he realized that they'd never execute otherwise.

 

Re national socialism, Mussolini had been a no shit socialist (a socialist leader, highly regarded by Lenin, and editor of the socialist newspaper) until WWI. During WWI he saw that international socialism was fatally flawed; Italian workers did not identify with Austrian workers, but rather with their Italian bourgeois officers. In short, socialism uniting the working class across national borders (i.e., horizontally) would not work, and therefore he invented national socialism, socialism within one country, uniting all the classes within ONE country.

 

 

316 I'm fairly confident that if I had absolute power I wouldn't suddenly develop a desire to gas Jews.But I could be wrong. Posted by: jwest


Maybe not Jews, but potentially any politically inconvenient people who oppose you.  Maybe nobody at all.  But then what about your successor or their successor?

317 Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 24, 2013 11:38 AM (IDSI7) Well said!

318 I watched this doc where Hitler was meeting someone in Finland and the Finns bugged and recorded the meeting. It was strange in that it was the only time I've heard him not ranting and raving and foaming at the mouth. He was talking calmly and intelligently, and gasp, even praised the Russians. It was a few months after Stalingrad and he was saying that he couldn't believe the ruskies could churn out so many tanks so quickly.

319 Lol. $100 for the Fall, same for the Spring. Plus she has to take at least one class at the studio. Which is like $50 for each session.

Costume is included in the $100, but the standard leotard, shoes, etc....prob another $50-100 between both sessions.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at May 24, 2013 12:14 PM (da5Wo)

My niece dances too.  Her mother is charging stuff on her credit card all the time to keep up with all the fees, costumes, etc.  It's a huge racket.

320

"Maybe not Jews, but potentially any politically inconvenient people who oppose you. Maybe nobody at all. But then what about your successor or their successor?"

 

That's when the people would need to revolt against my absolute power and either establish a system of shared power or overthrow me completely.

 

Either way, they would learn the lessons of freedom and know then of their responsiblity in maintaining it.

321 Yes, the "new" progressives, as Hillary terms herself, ditched the eugenics. (Now it's voluntary!) But what they retained was the terrible desire to unite the country under the umbrella of government. This always, always goes wrong. Most people realize that at about age 25. These morons never gave it up. Now in DC we are seeing the results of this stupid vision once more. Let's hope we find out way out of it before millions more die.

But seriously, read Jonah Goldberg's book, or Alan Bloom's. Fascism and its sense of "unity" for the country was all the rage. Fascism gave rise to progressivism.

322 I blame  Hitler   on the speed.  And art school.   Probably too many vegetables.     

323

Hey! You know what else is true about communists running around in Germany in the 30s? They were all considered to be synonymous with Jews!!

You seem to be doing some creative twisting with your facts, bud. I'm not sure why.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 24, 2013 12:07 PM (BeSEI)

 

Not true, not fair, and a straw man into the bargain. The original purpose of Dachau was to hold political opponents, for which purpose it was opened in March 1933. It later held gypsies, Jews, homosexuals, etc., but originally it held Communists and socialists.

 

I didn't say communists were "considered to be synonymous with Jews." You did, putting words in my mouth. Jews have historically been big on Communism and hard-left politics generally, for some reason. It was true in Russia, it was true in Germany, it was true in America, and remains so today.

 

I gave you an example (the co-leader of the KPD at the time of the Spartacist uprising), but the examples are legion, starting Marx himself through the Rosenbergs, Harry Dexter White, Theodore Hall, to Mark Rudd, Bernadine Dohrn, Kathy Boudin, to George Soros.

 

So not "synonymous with," but rather "involved with," would be a fairer characterization. To deny this would be like saying "Muslims are not involved with terrorism."

324

325 329 I blame Hitler on the speed. And art school. Probably too many vegetables. Posted by: Beagle at May 24, 2013 12:32 PM (sOtz/) So, what do you think happened when Der Fuhrer farted? Did every one pretend not to hear it? Not to smell it? Did they wait until he left the Chancellory and then burst out laughing?

326 But seriously, read Jonah Goldberg's book, or Alan Bloom's. Fascism and its sense of "unity" for the country was all the rage. Fascism gave rise to progressivism. 

Posted by: PJ at May 24, 2013 12:29 PM (ZWaLo)

Woodrow Wilson was a progressive fascist before Fascism came around proper.  

I'd say it's more that they're kin ideologies.   It's rooted in centralized decision-making for "the greater good".  (As conveniently defined by those in power) 

327 Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 24, 2013 12:03 PM (IDSI7)

I am aware that the Nazi's first targets were their political opponents. Regardless of their choice of target, it is their tactics I am criticizing. They were murderous thugs in 1933.

328 So while growing up, the young JFK was influenced by the political views of his extremely persuasive father. I'm shocked. Shocked. As for Fascism being "right" (heh) for Germany 1939, and no worse for wear than Communism, well...it was what it was. How could it be seen as "better than" communism by an elitist young man? Perhaps corporatism is more effective in production and profits, which of course matters. And explains why Red China finally merged communism with fascist elements. Now, so far as the Western WWII Allies defeating socialism in either form of government, communism or fascism, that's a joke given "democratic socialism" ruling today. That misconception of an achievement by "the greatest generation" follows the obnoxious propaganda of the Dough Boys in Wilson's "Great War" WWI, "the war to end all wars." After all those years grinding on and on with only death to show for it, how else could the monarchs (and dictator Wilson) keep their men from either despairing or else deserting given the perpetual futility of trench warfare grinding up fresh human flesh for naught. Of course the men loved their homes and countries. But in hindsight, the disillusionment was what Western Civilization did NOT recover from. And given WWII victories, the domino theory of instigating wars to prevent the spread of communism didn't work, either. Nor does interventionist warfare to "win the war on terror" by winning the hearts and minds of the enemy, whether with US military personnel confined to suicidal Rules of Engagement or with drones. On that domino era, his biographers say that JFK was deciding to pull out of Vietnam at the point of his assassination, after which LBJ charged full speed ahead into Indochina against all advice he requested from friends in Congress. They all told him that Vietnam would be his Korea fiasco, no way to "win".

329 330 -

I  didn't put words in your mouth.  Quite the opposite, I'm question why you are conveniently leaving out the fact that in pre-war Germany, communism was considered to be primarily the realm of Jews. 

It's true, no matter how you choose to parse the words.

And it's also true that Jews (and others) were murdered at Dachau.  Whether this was the ORIGINAL PURPOSE of the camp is beside the point.

Somebody above said there were no ovens at Dachau.  I simply correctly that factual error, and with subsequent comments I'm beginning to wonder about the motives behind that "error," and whether it was an intentional lie. 

Only you know why you want to make distinctions regarding how and why Dachau was used during its course of use.  I'm merely curious at this point, but if you want to pursue this line of argument further, I'm going to stop having doubts. 

330 Look, everyone knows that the West was full of fascist sympathizers in the 1930's. made the trains on time, and all that... I think WW2 woke up quite a few people to reality, JFK included. The real question for our time is, What about today's Chicom sympathisers, like Tom Friedman, who's praise for a totalitarian regime sound remarkably familiar? What about today's liberals, set to ditch the Bill of Rights to achieve their goals?

331 Just got Rick Atkinson's new book from Amazon, the last in his Liberation Trilogy , this on titled "The Guns at Last Light". Superb, as were the first two. An instant classic, like Shelby Foote's Civil War series.

The one thing that sticks in my mind from all 3 books is the enormous number of worthless poseurs in command positions in the armies of the Western allies. Far too many of them seemed to think they were actors on a stage and wasted soldiers' blood like water.  Compared to the Germans, we had to go through far too many drones. I shudder to think what would have happened if we had had to face a Wehrmacht that hadn't been ground down by 3 years of fighting the Russians.

Highly recommended book.

332 "130 Try to separate the concept of a facist government with tossing Jews in ovens.

I understand your point, but you are wrong. It's like saying "try to separate the concept of a tiger from the teeth and claws".

Posted by: pep at May 24, 2013 11:35 AM (6TB1Z)"

ISTR reading about some of Mussolini's fascist Italian soldiers exchanging shots with Wehrmacht troops in order to protect Jews at some point.  It was a while back and my memory has faded with the years.  Gassing Jews is not one of the basic tenets of fascism.  Using the power of government to oppress your political opponents is, however.

333 "Facism isn't the best form of government for the U.S. in 2013, but it was helpful to Germany in the 1930's.

Posted by: jwest at May 24, 2013 11:37 AM (u2a4R)"

I beg to differ.

334 Lefties in that time frame were called "progressives". They admired the work of Mussolini, and later that of Hitler. Not to mention good ol' Uncle Joe. Stalin, not Biden. The war and the aftermath made that untenable, so they rebranded themselves as "liberal" and mostly shut up about admiring totalitarian dictators. Some couldn't help themselves, and showed admiration for Mao, Castro, and Che. And Uncle Ho. Chi Min, not Biden.

335 "287
There are ovens at Dachau. I've been there, I've seen them for myself.


To dispose of the remains of imprisoned workers who died, As usual, you miss the point.

Posted by: Earl Butz, Sec of Ag at May 24, 2013 12:08 PM (omBWL)"

There was a cremation oven behind my unit's building when I was stationed in Germany.  It had been built when it was a German army base before WW I.  My unit's building was originally a morgue.

336 "237 Really? Wilhelmine Germany "evil?" You lost me there.

Da*n typso. I hate 'em.

Pre-WW2 Germany.

Which I suspect you knew.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at May 24, 2013 11:56 AM (/PCJa)"

Wait - which came first?  WW1 or WW 2?

337 He was young, nothing to see there.

338 "Absolute Monarchies?

You mean where the king could do whatever he wanted? Where people were bound to the land, and could be bought and sold and killed at the whim of the lord of that land?

Sorry, but that is totalitarian, and it's against the laws of God and the natural law of man.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 24, 2013 12:05 PM (O6Tmi)"

You are describing conditions in the Ottoman Empire or China.  European monarchies were generally more limited in their power.

339 ConservativeMonster, correct, and Cool Czech too. The two feed off each other, and like IRA says, when progressives discovered the mass murder that fascism led to (part and parcel of it, as I believe) they called themselves liberals.

340 People in the 1930s didn't share some of our judgments. Such as, all races are equal and deserve a color-blind government. Or that all peoples yearn for democracy and authoritarian systems are inferior, temporary and automatically abusive. Or that Western European governments should be allied to America and appeal to American interests and values. If we today consider those default positions, it is because people since 1937 fought like hell to secure them as policy.

341

My father was a strict Irish Catholic from New York City, who completely rejected JFK and voted for Nixon in 1960.  Over the years, many times he talked about his reasons:   the entire Kennedy family was crooked and that old Joe Kennedy was such a Nazi sympathizer that even FDR couldn't take it and recalled him from England as our ambassador there. 

Guess the apple didn't fall too far from the tree - in the case of Joe and JFK AND Dad and me. 

I also remember Dad not having much to do with his family, who were die-hard Democrats.  He was an oddball in their eyes: bucking the old country tradition of making sure his sister was married off before he married my mom; a William Buckley Republican in the Irish Catholic ghetto; and turning down a baseball and track scholarship to Columbia because even then he thought going there would help destroy his Catholic faith and instead hitchhiked his way every day from Manhattan to Iona College in New Rochelle.  

 

He never did so say, but I suspect his repudiation of the first Irish Catholic president may have been the last straw for his family and may have played a  part in his moving us from NYC to little old Cape Coral, Florida.

 

He was the smart one in the end:  his sister never married, she and just about all of his cousins remained in the Irish ghetto (which have turned into downright dangerous areas), lived off welfare, and some of them drank themselves to death or ODd on drugs - while Dad graduated from college, became a successful CPA, and was a wonderful husband and father. 

 

When his mother became very ill in 1988, Dad went back to the old neighborhood for 6 weeks to care for her until her death, Then Dad started sending money every month to help support to his welfare spinster sister, 

 

Dad died in April 2011; I have since been in contact with his sister, who is a die-hard Nanny Bloomberg, Hillary, and JEF worshipper.  My daughter, and I met up with her in midtown Manhattan last August, and we had to listen for a good hour about the wonders of Obamacare and how smart and handsome JEF is, and how wonderful it is that he is working to make sure everyone pays their fair share. 

 

That didn't stop her from having a Kobe beef hamburger on us in Rockefeller Center. 

 

Oh, and she threw in a few nuggets about how good-looking JFK was  and how much he accomplished in 3 years.  Ugh. 

 

Only respect for my dad's memory kept me from lashing back in anger at the brainwashing she's experienced these many years.  But it didn't stop me from disagreeing with her as politely as I could

 

Proof positive that the conservative mindset wins, in the long run.

 

And I wanted to say how proud I was of my dad for knowing, even over 50 years ago, what poison the Kennedys inflicted on this country. 

 

Sorry for the long rant; I just had surgery this morning and it could be the painkillers talking.   

 

342 JFK was not that bright. And a lot of elites got into Hitler.

343 I'd like to remind everybody that the Nazis weren't doing "fascism" -- that was Mussolini and his boys n girls. The Nazis were doing "national socialism" -- and thus Adolf had something more along the lines of a more Stalinesque version of what Benito was doing. (interesting aside: Benito thought Adolf was a bit cracked and the mutual admiration was a bit one sided). And that either way: it's all a form of commie, state controlled society...so it's all bad. And no...Adolf was pretty up front with what his plans were; Mein Kampf anyone? And JFK still thought he was just the bees knees. No excuses.

344 Test?