1 Liberals push consumptionism using demand-side economics and the belief that spending (by the government or by government encouraging people to spend) spurs economic growth. And they wonder why the people they nudge to spend don't save enough.

2 Monty when I first read that CA proposal I looked at it and said to myself "yeah, a new program that forces people to put part of their money in a government controlled account in which they will pay it back out once they reach retirement age".  Yes, what could go wrong?  Especially in CA.  Yes, it is SS all over again and the real reason for it is the same reason FDR had, a new tax that they can start collecting now and maybe payback later IF they don't go bankrupt.



But the legislature in CA is controlled exclusively by the commies and the stupid voters that live in that 50 mile swatch next t the ocean put them there.

3 Ghilarducci plan.... Anything with that many syllables is automatically suspect....

4 This Ghiladouche or whatever is aware of 401K and "social security" that people pay into, right?

Oh, wait, this is another attempt to get the government a new source of funding to rob.

5 Where will the saved money be kept? In equities? In bank accounts? Politicians are like bank robbers they go where the money is. Wall street loves new investors.

6 Umm, hell no.

7

Don't worry.  They'll put it in a lock box.

8 I coulda been somebody, I could have been First.

9

As for a reason why people don't save, there's no incentive. 

 

10 Don't worry, we're trustworthy. Really!

11 We must start by understanding the difference between saving and investing. They are not the same thing. When you invest money, you are putting your money at risk in an enterprise in the hopes of gaining a return on your principal. When you save money, there�s no expectation of capital appreciation; you�re simply storing your money for use later. This is a vital distinction, but one that is increasingly muddied these days.



It depends on what you "invest" in Monty.  Buying stock in a large blue chip utility is the next thing to saving and you earn on the average of 5% return.  Meanwhile buying CDs or even worse a savings account, you are lucky to get 1%.


However going out and buying penny stocks is not even "investing", it is legalized gamboling.

12 Hmmm, politicians such as those who have proposed this program like to spend tax dollars that haven't even been collected yet, driving up government debt. Perhaps they could let me help ease government debt by letting me keep and save some of those tax dollars.

13 Saving, and even investing, is a sucker's bet when the government is borrowing or printing more money than it takes in. Further, given the fear of a Cyprus-like intervention or confiscatory "tax" on savings and investments to pay for current government debt, it would seem a better plan is to invest in commodities which maintain their value over time. A relative, who manages other people's money, told me recently that the best investments given the tea leaves, are guns and ammo. She was not kidding.

14 Bear in mind, Vic: GM was once considered a blue chip stock. So was US Steel. I don't know that I'd be willing to sink much money in either one these days. "Safety", in an investment vehicle, is relative. There's always risk, and you have to know how to calculate it. There is no such thing as a guaranteed investment. It is a purely mythical creature that does not and has never existed.

15 Many people see saving as a bad choice, a bad use of their limited resources. In some cases, theyÂ’re absolutely correct to think so.


I'm in that boat right now.   I have my money that's invested and that's not getting touched absent emergency.  It is a nice mental safety net to know it's there at least until it gets grabbed by Our Betters and then I'll be busy with the Burning Times. 


But then there's the money I'm saving and I look at that (tiny) amount and then I look at actual inflation and can't help but feel that I'm being a fool because I end up losing money.   It might be a better use of that money to get the newer car and the like.  


All I know is that it feels like anything I do is the wrong thing.

16 I put all my money in a safe in the embassy in Bengazi along with those caricatures of the Islamic prophet Mohammed. I'm sure it is totally secure and requires no checking upon.

17 "We must encourage people to spend to grow the economy!"

"We must encourage people to save for their own good!"

"Now we must encourage people to spend more to grow the economy!"

"Now we must encourage people to save more for their own good!"

Etc, ad infinitum. The nudging never ends.

18 I had read the problem with the gubmint pension was, the payouts are based on projected earnings. They are always considered (I think) to be in the 8 to 9 percent range. When they fall below that for extended periods, like now, the reserve, if there is any, starts to fall short. Now we have to start taxing the un-gubmint workers more to cover the shortage.

But I'm sure this Californication plan won't fall into that pit....

19 Not just no, but hell, no. Why the hell should we trust the government - who has proven itself to be untrustworthy - with more of our money?

20 Farming is the root of all Evil

21 Before money, people had family.  Money available to the mass of people is only been around for a few hundred years.  Destroy the family and you NEED money even more but family is still the best investment you'll ever make.

Another angle is energy efficiency.  The Enviro-weenies are distressed that people won't make an investment in a better refrigerator or the like that has a 5 year payback.  Turns out the average family's discount rate is 100% - an energy saving investment has to payback in one year.

So what do the Enviro-Weenies do?  They COMPEL you to save energy using force of government.  No more incandescent bulbs for you peon!  They've added a charge to your electric bill and give the money to the manufacturers to lower the cost of curly bulbs, the ones with the crappy green light.

Cheney was right - energy savings are a private virtue.  Now California want to make saving money a public compulsion.

Screw them.

22

Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:21 PM (lZvxr)

 

Even this is slightly oversimplified though Vic.

The difference really is between "known" and "unknown."

Even my Blue chip utility may take a every now and then.

My savings account (under 250k) will only lose money relative to inflation. (assuming I don't withdraw.)  And there's good argument that savings accounts in one of the Big National Banks (i.e. BofA) are unlikely to disappear even above the FDIC limits.

The ideal is to diversify investments (but still invest) until you near retirement, and then switch to a more "known" form when you start utilizing it as income (i.e. bonds, CDs, Savings accounts.)

Of course all of this assumes that national government doesn't collapse, if so all bets are presumably off anyway since, you know..fiat currency.

23 14  Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 01:26 PM (G8OwX)


Funny that the unions killed both of those.  But the handwriting was on the wall for both long before they collapsed and "smart" investors could get out.  However, utilities are much safer than any company that produces a product to be sold.



In return for getting a low rate of return on their "investment" utilities are virtually guaranteed to not go bankrupt.  It really takes a huge calamity to bankrupt a utility.

24 Keep enough of a cushion to cover most emergencies and spend the rest, because the future's looking ugly and tomorrow comes a day too soon.

25 The government portraying itself as The 'Safety Net' Savior of The Elderly just might have something to do with people not seriously thinking they need to take care of it themselves. Moral hazard, yo.

26 In return for getting a low rate of return on their "investment" utilities are virtually guaranteed to not go bankrupt. It really takes a huge calamity to bankrupt a utility.
Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:30 PM (lZvxr)


Or nationalization.  Or the EPA regulating something, say coal, nearly out of business and then the government coming in to "save" the industry that it destroyed.  

27

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD, you taunty bitch. at August 18, 2013 01:27 PM (Gk3SS)

 

Heh, don't I know it.

You know, despite the budget cuts, the wife and I have still managed to squirrel away the 5% (plus employer match) in her 401k.

Which I think is good.  but as I said, part of what is being failed right now is the conversion of investments to savings (i.e. people kept their wealth in investments, then the market crashed and wiped them out.)

Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:30 PM (lZvxr)

Define utility? Are you limiting yourself to electric and gas?  My electric company owns several coal plants, I suspect the next few years are not going to go for them. (They've already cut their dividend once recently.)

 

28 @ 21 "Before government, people had families." Spot on. Not to sound too "tin foil hat," but the boomers defined benefit pension schemes were designed not only to allow them to live the life of luxury post age 65, but also to keep them from taking care of their parents. It's part and parcel of the Progressive's desire to destroy the family and make government everyone's caretaker with the loss of freedom and autonomy that entails.

29 Subjects are too stupid to save their own money.Best to hand it over to the gubmint.

30 Yeah, reminds me of the "lock box" talk regarding Social Security. They weren't allowed to touch that money, either, until Congress passed another law treating those receipts as "General Income" that could be borrowed. Now the lock box has a crapload of IOUs amounting to more than $125 Trillion-with-a-T that were promised, but no longer exist.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

See "US Unfunded Liabilities" at the bottom...

31 26  Or nationalization. Or the EPA regulating something, say coal, nearly out of business and then the government coming in to "save" the industry that it destroyed.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD, you taunty bitch. at August 18, 2013 01:32 PM (Gk3SS)


All those "regulations" on coal were put in via executive fiat and they will be removed by executive fiat as soon as Barky 'O Blubbering Asswipe is out of office in a few years.

32 Liberals push consumptionism using demand-side economics and the belief that spending (by the government or by government encouraging people to spend) spurs economic growth. And they wonder why the people they nudge to spend don't save enough.
Posted by: JohnJ

I think the Libs like to push the spending because then when the peons go broke...TA DA!!!!!  Big Gov to the rescue. Don't think you need to pay more tax to cover some bastard that pisses money away?  Do it for the children...for the enviroment...ummmm YOUR A RACIST!!!!!

33 and let me guess: California promises not to spend ANY of the money they 'make' people save

34 What? Money will always be there!

35

It takes about $1million in principle with 0 debt (including mortgage) and a way to figure out healthcare to retire even moderately.

 

This of course assumes a roughly 3% return (which admittedly is not likely in the near future.) and a small draw down (less than $10k/year.) Admittedly this is with 0% inflation, that part is hard to account for.

 

It is possible to achieve this.  Statistically speaking, a 7% annual return, and 10% of a 65k income put away every year from 30-65 gets you there.

the 7% of course is based on the stock market average for any 10 years that doesn't start or end on a recession.  And the 10% is admittedly pretty hard.

But it is possible.  However it requires quite the dedication.

36 All those "regulations" on coal were put in via executive fiat and they will be removed by executive fiat as soon as Barky 'O Blubbering Asswipe is out of office in a few years.
Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:35 PM (lZvxr)


Uh.  Huh.


Because there won't be massive lawsuits by one of the Green organizations that's actually supported by the EPA that will tie up the removal of those regs for years and years.  Also that presumes that even a President with an (R) behind his name will revoke them.   You are more optimistic about that than I.


Look, I'm not disputing your advice.   It's excellent advice.   But Monty is right as well, there's a risk.   Everything has a risk.  Hell, keeping money in a box in your house is a risk because what if someone breaks in or your house burns down or there's a tornado.  

37 Days after reports that a nonprofit founded by Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg was seeking unpaid interns sparked criticism, the organization has announced that it will launch a paid internship program.

38 Californians deserve this for electing these people. How about we all return to much smaller government?

39 I wouldn't trust the gummint to hold my beer while I took a wizz

40 I'm using as much of my money as I can to pay down student debt. Spending money on debt that's growing at 6% or saving money to gain 0%. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

41

Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:35 PM (lZvxr)

 

That's quite the assumption there.

If Shillary wins you expect her to roll back the Coal regulations as well?  And what of the damage that was already done.

Heck, as noted, Ameren was too fucking stupid to realize that people will, in fact, find ways to reduce power consumption in a recession. Leaving them with less income for maintenance  than they thought.  And a regulatory commission that would hear nothing of the demand for price increases.

The investors took some of the hit. (And when they tried to use their "surcharge" rule to increase rates they got whammied and now customers a small amount of money back.)

42 Saving currency is a fool's errand. Currency is designed to be manipulated by politicians and the bankers they favor.

Convert the currency in to commodities, precious metals or real estate.

43 Good read, Monty. Thank you. I've seen, most everything in this, first hand. Perpetual children cannot save and rarely invest. 4 This Ghiladouche or whatever is aware of 401K and "social security" that people pay into, right? Oh, wait, this is another attempt to get the government a new source of funding to rob. Posted by: Deathknyte at August 18, 2013 01:18 PM (psutb) That's exactly what it is. Complete bullshit. This was discussed, somewhere, 4-5 years ago, or more.

44 All those "regulations" on coal were put in via executive fiat and they will be removed by executive fiat as soon as Barky 'O Blubbering Asswipe is out of office in a few years.
Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:35 PM (lZvxr)
Would President Christie do that?

45 Convert the currency in to commodities, precious metals or real estate. Posted by: navybrat at August 18, 2013 01:41 PM (6msQC) Or stick it in index funds. At least you'll grow with inflation.

46 Never, ever try.

47 I don't save for several reasons. 1. By the time I am ready to pull out cash it will be worth a small percentage of the cash I put in to the fund. 2. I gave up on the thought of retirement decades ago. I will work until I die, as it should be. 3. I hope to die at a relatively young age. If this should somehow fail to occur naturally I will take things into my own hands. I call it the Indian retirement system. 4. If I did save money as the US comes closer and closer to fiscal collapse it would simply be taken by the government in the name of the looters. This is why the public sector is wanting to mandate cash stores by the serfs. It is so they will have avenues to attain cash when the wheels fall off. Remember when our gold was taken and we were given an IOU in its place that was only backed by the 'good will' of the US government to pay. Now that gold is all gone. There are only IOUs in the system, and they will want to confiscate that. 5. Not in my lifetime but in the lifetimes of my children Money will be issued as global currency by the world bank. I fully believe that the networth of US will be stolen in the name of fairness to the poorer countries. The choice is simple, have enough purchasing power to purchase your way out of this situation, become a looter, or die. I would never save enough cash to maintain my place so it is either become a looter or a skeleton. I prefer skeleton. So live now for tomorrow you die.

48 The investors took some of the hit. (And when they tried to use their "surcharge" rule to increase rates they got whammied and now customers a small amount of money back.) Posted by: tsrblke at August 18, 2013 01:41 PM (GaqMa)


My personal favorite version of this is when water usage restrictions are put in place due to drought and then the water companies nail people with a surcharge because they didn't use enough water.

49

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at August 18, 2013 01:42 PM (X4HxX)

 

Hell, currently the DJIA is trending ahead of inflation. (Of course it's playing leading indicator most likely.)

50 When I was a kid, *everything* caused cancer. I decided as a youngun (before age that it was pointless to save for retirement, since I was obviously going to die of cancer before turning 50. Turned 50 this March. Clearly, the universe has let me down and has much to answer for.

51

 I wouldn't trust the gummint to hold my beer while I took a wiz

 

I have a friend who will say, 'Sure', and as soon as you start pissing  he'll put your beer on a stump/log/rock and shoot it with his pistol.

Funny as hell when it's somebody else's beer.

 

 

52 Instead of demonizing the 1% the government could (ridiculous I know) encourage people to emulate them.  Last year the 1% saved on average 37% of their income.   Me?  I've spent like crazy this last year, only saved about 80%.

53 If shit hits the fan sooner then food storage, guns and bullets are better. No one knows. Everyone who has bet against the USA has lost. Having given up all my hope to obama i have none left. You pays your money and takes your chances as they say.

54 >Would President Christie do that?


"A Donut In Every Pot"

CHRISTIE/OPRAH2016

55

CANCER

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEzcLTAMrRA

56

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD, you taunty bitch. at August 18, 2013 01:43 PM (Gk3SS)

 

Something like 60%+ of my gas bill is just a "customer charge."

That is I pay it just to exist.  During the summer when the only gas thing in my house running is the water heater, it's probably closer to 90%.

And the drive to make homes "energy efficient" is putting the squeeze on these companies.

Having said that, Laclede got smarter and is acting as banker for doing renovations.  Put in insulation: Finance it right on your gas bill for a flat 3.5%.

Furnace? Same deal, slightly different interest rate.  It's a brilliant recapture.

57 38 Californians deserve this for electing these people. How about we all return to much smaller government? Posted by: Harry at August 18, 2013 01:39 PM (ib4tw) You simply cannot get some people to understand it. They can get rear ended weekly by government and still think..... MoArGoVeRNmEnT!!!!!!! It's inbred is these fucking people and they lack the reasoning skills to figure out the problem. They do not learn from a burnt hand, period.

58 " 39 I wouldn't trust the gummint to hold my beer while I took a wizz " We'll said. I 'invest' all my money in hookers and blow.

59 Most people do not have extra money every month to put aside. They are just trying to survive in this liberal utopia/shit hole our fellow citizens have created.

60 The gummint already makes me save, then spends the money buying another of its voting blocks for the Democrats.

61 "This Ghiladouche or whatever is aware of 401K and "social security" that people pay into, right?"

The main difference between the public pension plan and SS is (notionally) the following:

1. You actually own the pension fund as an asset, unlike in SS. You can (again, notionally) borrow against it and leave it to your heirs. It belongs to you. I seriously doubt this is how things would work out in practice, but in theory, the money you put into this pension is actual (digital) money in a (digital) vault somewhere that you own.

2. The pension is keyed to some long term rate (probably the lowest bond rate, which is now at near zero) plus inflation. SS doesn't work that way.

401(k)'s are a different animal altogether. Their main benefit is in the tax code: you contribute to them before taxes are taken out of your pay, "amplifying" the money you put in. You then pay tax on this money at a future rate, after you retire. Which may be a good deal or a horrible deal, depending on the tax environment when you retire.

62 I saw Digital Lockbox open for Meat Beat Manifesto in 1986!

63 Another peril that will come with forced saving is one nobody talks about.  Inevitably the government will limit choice, like an IRA that has only 4 destinations for your savings.  One of the permissible choices will be 'the index' or a fund that closely resembles the index, thus resulting in the politicization of the market index.  All of the corruption we enjoy today with Soyldras and GM bailouts will spread like a cancer and pervert the process that determines which stocks make up the index.

64 Some people are so fucking stupid,they use withholding tax as a savings plan.Retards who think their "tax refund" is like a gift.

65 Also, you *invest* money in a 401(k), you don't *save* it. That's because the preferred vehicles for 401(k)'s are mutual funds, though you can get creative and do things like use gold trusts and whatnot.

66 The answer of course is socialism, but remember this. All other forms of socialism have failed where I succeeded. I alone achieved perfect security for my people. For the aged, the sick, the poor. For the children.

67 OT/prior thread reference alert

Since we're on a new thread, I want to refer to a comment made in the last one.  Retired Buckeye Cop said “You might be interested in Panzer Warfare on the Eastern Front by Hans Schaufler.”  Read it.  :->

“Overall, it is an interesting book, but it can be grim reading. A couple of the highlights was that the Russian T-34 tank was a huge shock to the Germans in 1941, their short-barreled 50mm guns couldn't do sh!t to the T-34 further away than 500-meters and the German Panzer III tanks had a bad habit of having the turret shear off the hull when it took a direct hit from the Russian 76.2mm gun. Oh, the Germans also had to deploy their 105mm howitzers in direct-fire mode to deal with the T-34s until they upgraded their own tanks.”

///

Actually, the short-barreled 50s couldnÂ’t do sh!t to the T-34 from 500 inches.  There was simply insufficient caliber and velocity.  Ironically, Hitler ordered that panzers be equipped with long barrels, but the ordnance office ignored him.  Also, the primary direct-fire mode weapon used against the T-34 (and heavier KV1s and 2s) was the 88mm anti-aircraft gun, which it was famous for doing.  It was later incorporated into the Tiger.  Panthers had the 75mm.

68

Ok wildly off topic. But I just played through assassins creed II.  (Never played Assassins Creed One). Most wildly anticatholic anti christian agitprop imaginable.  Not apparaent until you are mostly through it. 

The main character eventually gets initiated into the assassins guild with ritual chant - "nothing is true, everything is permissible".   If that's the Creed then its a stupid one. Then it gets worse.

Not giving it away but if you go to youtube Assassins creed II the movie.  Someone put all the cutscenes together and its about a 3 hour long movie.  At  hour 2:34 is the initiation scene. 15 minutes after that he battles the Pope and enters the "vault" under the vatican. Then it gets really bad.

Ironically, at the start up screen the game has a comment that it was created by a multi religious multi culti group. Funny how it wound up so incredibly one sided and antichrisitian.

I knew it was going to be at least immoral, but the level of blatant evil is quite a jolt. (Yes I know its a game where you go around killing people. I thought they were at least going to try and sugar coat it or justify it somehow. Neeeeeewwwwwwpppp. Giant helping of evil with side of  nihilistic solopsistic narcissism.) 

Where are the heros it popular culture? They are all antiheros now. Sucks.

69 The Germans did have some equipped with the long 50. And the short 75.

70 waaay off-topic:


motorboating Kate Upton.



That is all.

71 68 I suspected as much and have never played any of the AC games.Never will.

72 27 Are you limiting yourself to electric and gas? My electric company owns several coal plants, I suspect the next few years are not going to go for them. (They've already cut their dividend once recently.)

Posted by: tsrblke at August 18, 2013 01:33 PM (GaqMa)

late response got another phone call.

Our local utility had to shutdown 3 older plants due to the new Obamanite EPA rules.  However, all they will do is use more gas turbine power during peak load periods.  Which the customers will have to pay for.  If they had to cut dividend payments it was more than likely a one-time write off if they had to close the coal mines.

73 I'll support this plan with the proviso that when it fails or when future politicians simply grab the $, any politician who supported it gets shot.

74 Save for what? Co-pay on a regiment of drugs or just to have a nicer prison cell at Happy Valley Assisted Living Center.

75 It's not about people saving their own money, it is a phony baloney to tax people. Social Security goes into the general fund, and the same thing will happen in California under this outrageous scheme.

76 Afternoon all. Just got back from West Point. Must be the end "beast Barracks" for the Plebes and parents day or something. The PX and Commissary was packed with them. Kinda nice to see. They must be so proud of their kids

77 What is left out of the discussion of the "Ghilarducci Plan" is that ALL retirement plans including IRAs and 401(k)s would be "nationalized" i.e. stolen in order to make this new program "fair".  Go back to her earlier articles to see this.  You see we need to take $ from the savers to redistribute to those who didn't bother.
Lord help us.

78 It's not an IOU It's a GLC (good luck collecting)

79 The answer of course is socialism, but remember this. All other forms of socialism have failed where I succeeded. I alone achieved perfect security for my people. For the aged, the sick, the poor.
For the children.

Posted by: Zombie Jim Jones at August 18, 2013 01:57 PM (C8mVl)

He has a point.  Socialism always works if you're willing to kill enough people.

80 If I had the time for an extensive reply, the comment would include the following:

Social Security
Public employee pension funds
Al Gore's "lock box"
Josef Stalin

81

Yeah steevy - Will not be doing AC III what they did to american history I can only shudder to think.  Heat to think kids are playing these games. 

Not so much the violence as the poisonous philosopy.

God the propaganda efforts of the progressive left are mind boggling. Their ultimate goal is to destroy the minds of children, so the never mature in to free thinking adults.

82 A-Roid thru one of his paid mouth piece shysters is accusing the Yankees and MLB of tying to ruin him and make his Doc botch his operations? NOW they should suspend for actions detrimental to baseball ASAP

83 It was actually Tipper who had the Lock Box.

84 47 I don't save for several reasons. 1. By the time I am ready to pull out cash it will be worth a small percentage of the cash I put in to the fund. 2. I gave up on the thought of retirement decades ago. I will work until I die, as it should be. 3. I hope to die at a relatively young age. If this should somehow fail to occur naturally I will take things into my own hands. I call it the Indian retirement system. 4. If I did save money as the US comes closer and closer to fiscal collapse it would simply be taken by the government in the name of the looters. This is why the public sector is wanting to mandate cash stores by the serfs. It is so they will have avenues to attain cash when the wheels fall off. Remember when our gold was taken and we were given an IOU in its place that was only backed by the 'good will' of the US government to pay. Now that gold is all gone. There are only IOUs in the system, and they will want to confiscate that. 5. Not in my lifetime but in the lifetimes of my children Money will be issued as global currency by the world bank. I fully believe that the networth of US will be stolen in the name of fairness to the poorer countries. The choice is simple, have enough purchasing power to purchase your way out of this situation, become a looter, or die. I would never save enough cash to maintain my place so it is either become a looter or a skeleton. I prefer skeleton. So live now for tomorrow you die. Posted by: Mekan at August 18, 2013 01:43 PM (zG16+) Yeah, being 31, this is pretty much how I view the future as well.

85 They are dumb out there and getting dumber.But they THINK they are smart.Because,smart phones or something... http://tinyurl.com/k4saq88

86 I will the whole thing, but did anyone mention this: if the gov't forces me to shell out several hundred a month for health coverage, I doubt I'll be able to save any (unless I develop a taste for twigs and rocks.)
Then what..? Oh, yes, the government will also force me to save for my retirement.

The Land of the Free of Responsibility and the Home of the Brave New World.

87 69 The Germans did have some equipped with the long 50. And the short 75. Posted by: steevy

Early on, IIRC, the thing that had the long 50 was the assault gun, which was like a tank but without a rotating turret.  Non-rotating turrets can handle heavier and larger cannons more easily.  German panzer theory was based on mobility, not firepower or protection, and not until Barbarossa did they realize that might work against the French, but not the Sovs.  Germany simply had no heavy tanks until the Tiger in 1942, even though both France and Russia had such, albeit, that was unknown as to Russia.

88 Hollywood Obamabot Morgan Freeman Developing Series For CBS About Hillary Clinton A Female Secretary of State… They could at least be honest about it. Via Newsbusters: With all the stink caused by CNN and NBC’s planned programs about Hillary Clinton, you’d think other networks might shy away from such projects. Not CBS who according to The Wrap is developing a new series about a – wait for it! – female secretary of state executive produced by the perilously liberal Morgan Freeman. Madame Secretary will explore “the personal and professional life of a maverick female Secretary of State as she drives international diplomacy, wrangles office politics and balances a complex family life.” There a reason I only watch sports, News, and the Nazi Channel ( as my wife calls the History/Military Channels)

89 "Also, you *invest* money in a 401(k), you don't *save* it. That's because the preferred vehicles for 401(k)'s are mutual funds, though you can get creative and do things like use gold trusts and whatnot."

Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 01:55 PM (G8OwX)

While you are correct that a 401(k) is an investment, you wildly overstate the investment options available to employees in most plans.  Generally a corporation selects a provider for their plan (such as Fidelity), and then a very limited subset of Fidelity products will be made available to employees.  It's a sweetheart deal for the corporation and for Fidelity, but a sub-standard investment opportunity for employees.

To get "creative" as you suggest, you generally have to quit and roll your 401(k) over into an IRA.  Then your investment options will once again approximate the normal range of market opportunities.

90 Under the national "Who's yo daddy?" Plan you sacrifice 25% of each check to undermine the impulse spending and empower Obarka to spend for every impulse..... Folk are trained not to save by the fraud of Soc Sec btw...

91 87 French Char B and the one British infantry tank(Matilda?not sure) were largely immune to the standard German AT gun.

92 re 89: if I am not mistake, you can get a tax advantage on a larger amount of money every year with a 401k than an IRA.

93 88 More left wing masturbation.Like West Wing and Newsroom,hell they may as well get Sorkin to write it.

94 Why can't people save? Excuse the snide here, BUT .... naive much? Sure, sure, they're just trying to help you. Sure. They. Are. and pigs can fly given enough thrust. Put those suckers in a catapult and they'll really fly. When Democrats and Commies, but I repeat myself, start talking about helping you hide your wallet and cover your neck from the blood sucking thieves.

95 There is one difference between now and generations past that Monty has not taken into account -- the extended family. In generations past old people lived with their children. Wealth was more of a family / generational thing and each generation knew that they were simply handing off what they created, conserved or improved to the next generation. This is a generalization, of course, but true of the historically successfully cultures.

The modern state and fiat money have replaced or is attempting to replace the family and wealth with the assurance that the state is effectively immortal and all knowing. Within living memory fiat money is "worth" 100 times less and the family has nearly disintegrated in much of our society. The nuclear family of today (if you are lucky) is two generations under one roof rather than three, four or even five generations as previously.

This means that cultural continuity and economic stability is now a one or two generation event for the the most successful of us and is nearly gone for the less fortunate. Thus our culture is less robust.

This is the weak point of Western Civilization and is, it seems to me, the mechanism by which it is destroyed. Our own utopians have woven the fabric of our end.

96 BTW, my old company had 3 "investments" for their 401K, company stock, a mutual fund that concentrated on growth (more risky), and a mutual fund that was more stable with less risk and less return.  You could put it all in one are split it out between the three.



And you were a fool if you didn't do something because they matched 50% of your contributions up to 6% of your gross pay.

97 @ 21 "Before government, people had families."

Excellent.  Think also about how anti-family the concept of a "living wage" is.  The presumption is that everyone, at every stage of life, should be able to earn enough in any job to support themselves living alone (and perhaps children as well).  When did not needing anyone become the definition of "living"?

98 The problem is, in a capitalist society,along with being rewarded for good decisions, people must be held accountable for their poor decisions. We as a society are no longer willing to do hold anyone accountable. For anything.

99 79---Socialism always works if you're willing to kill enough people. Posted by: Blanco Basura at August 18, 2013 02:05 PM (JawqV) ------------------ Not just "enough," ALL the people, my friend, including the ruling class. Don't you see? It's been there all along and no one else could see it. Perfect equality. Freedom from want and insecurity, from labor and illness. Freedom even from feeling too "small," freedom from guilt if you're too "big." I did it!

100 "if the gov't forces me to shell out several hundred a month for health coverage"

I was thinking the same thing, who can save anything when a big chunk of your pay is just going to be forced from you.

101 With such low interest rates (below inflation) you actually lose money when saving it. I think for poor people, the lottery type savings would be a great idea. (In lottery savings, instead of interest, you get a "ticket" to win a sum of money in a lottery. The sum of money is equal to the pool of interest that would normally be alotted each saver. Instead, its pooled for prizes.)

102 There a reason I only watch sports, News, and the Nazi Channel ( as my wife calls the History/Military Channels)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at August 18, 2013 02:08 PM (jE38p)
Why don't they just go ahead and create The Hillary Channel?

103 The interesting question is: why arenÂ’t people saving enough of their own money for retirement?

Why would they.  Either they bet that the government will take someone else's money to support you, or if you are a saver by nature, the government will take your money to support someone else. 

If there were a way to prevent politicians from having control of the forced savings, I'd be for it.

104 Why don't people save their own money? People have money to save now-a-days???

105 102 Already is one,Lifetime.

106 Why don't they just go ahead and create The Hillary Channel? Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at August 18, 2013 02:16 PM (YgTB4) Well there is MSNBC after all

107 91 87 French Char B and the one British infantry tank(Matilda?not sure) were largely immune to the standard German AT gun. Posted by: steevy

That's true, but the standard German AT gun was a essentially a towed or horse-drawn 37mm, 2 (3?)-man howitzer.  The assault gun, or jagdpanzer, was a turretless tank.  Huge difference.

108 101 Sexypig, A good and valid point I think we're at the point where holding on to enough to loan as a capital pool for small biz is a better hedge than simple savings or even CDs.

109

Wasn't Social Security supposed to be that? The Gov't takes a portion of your paycheck all your working life.in return they send you a monthly check after you turned 65. Or is it 67?

110 McCain charges U.S. lost 'credibility' on Egypt Look at the pot calling the Kettle Black? Hey McIdiot, they hate you in Egypt also

111 "re 89: if I am not mistake, you can get a tax advantage on a larger amount of money every year with a 401k than an IRA."

Posted by: Mallfly at August 18, 2013 02:11 PM (bJm7W)

You are confusing the annual limits on tax-deferred contributions with investment returns.  There is no advantage in contributing more money to a plan if you are going to earn less return. 

All earnings in 401(k)'s and IRA's alike are tax-deferred.  But the investment options in 401(k)'s are severely constrained, generally by sweetheart deals negotiated between the corporation and their chosen plan administrator with little regard to the benefit to employees.

112 There is no advantage in contributing more money to a plan if you are going to earn less return.

Posted by: TH at August 18, 2013 02:19 PM (s4eYP)

Maybe, though I think most retirement plans can probably beat the returns on savings accounts these days...

113 That POS The Butler is going to finish the weekend number 1 at the box office with $25 million.Stupid white people rewarding racists who hate them.

114 In other news, I now know why they specified a 9x13 cake pan instead of a 9x9. Who would have guessed that little of cake batter could have raised so much?

115 People can no longer afford to have grandma and grandpa from both sides of the family along with their own children in the house.


That is because the houses that were around in those times were about 10K to 15K sq ft 2 and 3 story monstrosities.  Inflation has caused those houses to go for almost $1M today with accompanying property taxes that are out the roof.  Also, heating and cooling also take an arm and a leg. 


The average person has lost dearly on the inflation game which started when commie FDR came into office and tried all of his stupid BS to "get us out of the depression".  And the only thing he accomplished was making it worse and creating runaway inflation.


Look at some of those old pictures of local grocery markets and Shorpy. You can see the prices on a lot of stuff.

116 The more I think about it the more I reject the distinction between saving and investing.  Even if you have made a non-choice to keep US dollars earned in that currency cause your an American dammit, you have invested in the US dollar. 

117 I wouldn't trust the gummint to hold my beer while I took a wizz Posted by: Jones in CO at August 18, 2013 01:40 PM (8sCoq) We're watching you pee.

118 113 Steevy, Here in Columbia it was Orca fan grey panthers and the Urban demographic's senior set....

119 I maintain a few hundred Gs cash in my Schwab account.  I'm always getting emails and phone calls asking if I want an investing advice.  Yeah, keep the government out of it.

120 to use your 401 to invest in your companies stock can be risky. If the company tanks so does your account and you are without a job.

121 I had to save $40k+ so that I could buy my first home. It took over 6 years with a few bursts and slip-backs due to periods of unemployment. In the mean time I've been driving around a an old '93 Camry I've had since getting out of college ('99) that is today pushing 300k miles.  I could have gotten a new car at any time duding my savings period, but I thought it the prudent thing to hang on to it. (Though I do wonder about the lost-opportunity cost of non-dating.)

122 The problem is, in a capitalist society,along with being rewarded for good decisions, people must be held accountable for their poor decisions. We as a society are no longer willing to do hold anyone accountable

I have no idea what you're talking about.

123 39 I wouldn't trust the gummint to hold my beer while I took a wizz

Posted by: Jones in CO at August 18, 2013 01:40 PM (8sCoq)

Just trying to catch up, between household chores, on a very interesting thread.  Got as far as this comment and paused to give a high-five to Jones!! 

124 A lot of the Boomers didn't have anything to save because they felt that their special little snowflake offspring just HAD to go to the best universities and follow their dreams of being Mayan Art majors and are now back at home running up the household expenses

125 How do I looka now, goombas?

126 125 Ponz, Your rate of return is better than what any 35 YO is on pace to make Paisan.... //Zombie Keynes

127 OT:
Insty has a link to an article about Phoebe Cates, and the fact that she is now 50.  Still looks good, although I'd have to see her in a red bikini for research purposes.

128 inflation can cause the saved amount to evaporate like a puddle under a hot sun

This is the main reason for a lack of savings.  In a stable monetary system, people save.  They do this naturally when they know that dollar they save today is going to be worth at least a dollar in 10 years.

The dollar has lost something like 97% of its value from the time the Federal Reserve was instituted by Congress until today. 

Inflation is a feature of that cartel banking system, not a bug.  It is a direct expression of the Keynesian (i.e., bullshit) theory that saving money is bad, and that money must therefore be forced out of the hands of savers (whom the government sees as hoarders), so as to encourage monetary liquidity. 

The government can cajole, blame, hector and bully people all day every day, but the only way to improve people's sub-optimal economic behavior is almost always just to stop encouraging it. 

In other words, the root cause of sub-optimal economic behavior, in the aggregate, is almost always a direct response to some asinine, collectivist, anti-freedom and anti-property governmental rule or program that ought to be repealed. 

129 For me the answer is simple: Children. The three boys I have raised have been a massive drain on finances that otherwise would have been saved and invested. But are children an investment? If they are able to help support me in my dotage, the answer is yes.

130 Madame Secretary will explore “the personal and professional life of a maverick female Secretary of State as she drives international diplomacy, wrangles office politics and balances a complex family life.”


TO DO
1.  Depose America-friendly ME dictator.
2.  Arrange overpaid network position for Chelsea
3.  More cigars for Bill.  He's out again.
4.  Find someone who can translate RESET into Russian.
5.  Get dry cleaning.
6.  Listen to some African brats sing a song.
7.  Leak new Weiner dick pics to media.
8.  Tongue session with Huma.

131 129 Gregory of Yarddale, I support Gay Marriage, the Gle Mafia, and planne genocide for democrats for a reason

132 we have no real poor. only fat lazy parasites who need free gastric bypasses

133 Here is something else that is going to kill the young people of today who do not save. Most major companies now no longer have what they called a "defined benefit plan" for retirement.  The good companies have a "cash balance" plan where you contibute and they match a small portion up until you reach 55 and they increase the amount they put in.  However there are a LOT of companies that have NO plan.  The same thing goes for healthcare.  Most big companies have eliminated post retirement healthcare altogether.  Some, thank you Oshitforbrains, have even done away with healthcare for people while working.



If you do not save something you are going to be in a ditch coughing up your guts from the TB brought in by your next door neighbors from south of the border.

134 For me the answer is simple: Children. The three boys I have raised have been a massive drain on finances that otherwise would have been saved and invested. But are children an investment? If they are able to help support me in my dotage, the answer is yes. Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at August 18, 2013 02:28 PM (X1lGS) I'd rather spend my meager material assets on my children than giving it to the Gov.

135 21 "Before government, people had families." To the left, families and friends are inherently oppressive. They believe that any reliance and dependency on other humans is anti-human, and wish us to return to Rousseau's Noble Savage. Since we can't have that, they believe that we can be liberated from each other by submitting totally to the state, or more accurately, the "General Will" (volonté générale). As Rousseau put it: "Each person would then be completely independent of all his fellowmen, and absolutely dependent upon the state." How can a person be liberated from other humans when the state they submit to is run by humans? Simple: The state is guided by that "general will" which spontaneously pops into existence. The people who run the government really don't run it, but simply divine the "general will" like an auger poking through rooster guts. The left are the true advocates of a theocracy, with the "general will" as their god, and the Progressive elite as their priests. I have much more on that here: http://tinyurl.com/lnwvjwa

136 In other words, the root cause of sub-optimal economic behavior, in the aggregate, is almost always a direct response to some asinine, collectivist, anti-freedom and anti-property governmental rule or program that ought to be repealed.
Posted by: Phinn

You mean like paying inflated prices for marijuana because it's illegal?

137 8. Tongue session with Huma. --------- I wish she used her tongue. *Shudders*

138 I'm under 30 and I fully expect to not ever really retire. More like a working "retirement".

139 133 Nevergiveup, Wife, and I can only have Lad10077 in all likelihood. We've explained to the boy his finances go in the family capital pool 'til he marries has issue... Then he can have his cash flow...of course the trade he's gonna get is a hobby farm when we die. Not a bad trade.

140 If Hillary is so wonderful a candidate, why is there so much propaganda being shoveled out to convince the nation of this? It isn't like she is an obscure figure just now emerging into public view.

I can only hope this crap backfires and makes a lot of LIVs sick of the very thought of her.

141 Then he can have his cash flow...of course the trade he's gonna get is a hobby farm when we die.

Not a bad trade.

Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at August 18, 2013 02:33 PM (j3uqc)

Don't tell the EPA.

142 You could always invest in insurance. Any of the large carriers will offer universal life policies with returns indexed to growth of the stock market, while guaranteeing no loss if the market tanks in a given year. It's pretty safe, anything that collapses companies of that size and financial strength probably means that we're in dinner-is-rats-cooked-over-a-tire-fire times, making the whole money-for-retirement-in-Florida scenario, um, unlikely. Plus if something happens to you early, your beneficiaries get a chunk of cash.

143 I never saved a nickel and never invested and I never lived anywhere I had any hope of buying the kind of home I would live in, in the kind of neighborhood I would be safe in.  I did a lot of partying and boogeyboarding and tanning and camping and cooking and had a very nice time on not that much.  When I was hitting 50, I saw the train coming and have been nose to the grindstone and socking it away ever since.  Have managed to squirrel away a few sheckels, but it's clear I will have to work a lot longer and I am no spring chicken.  The only advice I ever give young people (and only those who ask) is to start saving very young, even if it's just a little bit at a time.  As you see it grow, you get more excited about it and it's self-perpetuating.

Yeah, I was a dumbass . . .

144 Oh, for crying out loud.  perhaps my tax burden is preventing me from saving more.  ever consider that?

145 I'd like to see a poll, how many LIVs know that Hillary is married to a former president?

146 You mean like paying inflated prices for marijuana because it's illegal?

The inflated weed price itself is only part of it. You have to include the cost of the (unconstitutional) War on Drugs.

There's also the inferior quality of the product due to it being produced in a black market.

The costs of bad laws have no limit.

147 TO DO 1. Depose America-friendly ME dictator. 2. Arrange overpaid network position for Chelsea 3. More cigars for Bill. He's out again. 4. Find someone who can translate RESET into Russian. 5. Get dry cleaning. 6. Listen to some African brats sing a song. 7. Leak new Weiner dick pics to media. 8. Tongue session with Huma. Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at August 18, 2013 02:28 PM (ehEyA) ----------------- 9. Bad-mouth Arizona while visiting China. 10. Get snotty with children when they ask about my husband. 11. Drink. 12. Grow my hair because Chelsea says it will look hot. 13. Buy a few more 1970's pants suits. 14. Invest in more cattle futures.

148 140 KG, Heh I'm pretty sure EPA don't control Alberta. *If* spouse gets her Pension I'm 97% certain we're leaving this place to CallSign:FreeShit! I like my nations like I like my Shirley Temples...capitalist.

149 Savings?

Every two weeks, Uncle Sam leaves a twenty-spot and an ice pack on the night stand for services rendered. 

150 If the common citizen earned interest at a rate faster than inflation, the Federal government would have to pay twice as much on its debt. So we do not get that kind of rate. With the fees that banks charge on savings accounts, unless you have $10,000 in the account, you are losing money - you are paying the bank to leave your money there.

151

Oh we're talking Assassin's Creed now?

I haven't played 3.

I'd note that the time ACII takes place is during the Borgia reign of the church. Not exactly our finest hour.

As far as the "Nothing is true, everything is Permitted." They take that apart in the 1st game. It's supposed to be a throwback to Machiavelli and a lesser extent Nietzsche (admittedly the first game takes place prior to both of those, but obviously the writers were influenced by those two.)

Given that the first game was accused of being anti-Muslem, I get the feeling their sorta "equal opportunity haters."

152 Heh I'm pretty sure EPA don't control Alberta.

Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at August 18, 2013 02:37 PM (j3uqc)

Canada doesn't have its own version? Wouldn't have figured.

153 142 Peaches, Good chace 10077 Ranch will be hiring ExPats...

154 Here is the problem. The money supply is being adjusted or diluted to the tune of 85 billion a month, last time I looked.

There more of a thing there is, the less it is worth. I don't care if we are talking about hair spray or hamburgers or Hondas.

So, save your money, but diversify the heck out of it, because one day all of this monetary chicanery will have some real consequences. 

155 Dang it. Pitcher in little league world series just took a hot shot back up the middle off the knee of his trail leg. Had to be helped off the field. Think he's the kid who threw the complete game no no a few days ago.

156

...it is legalized gamboling.

*****

 

Not on our watch, mister!

157 151 KG, Canuckistan's rectal rooter is less invasive... America is becoming a live action version of the fable about the Hen and the bread...

158 #146 Taking grooming tips from her introverted daughter might be the dumbest that bovine ever did, which is really saying something.

159 The best way to ensure americans an adequate retirement is delete the federal reserve. Without continuous inflation which steals almost all productivity increases , giving them to the inflators, the big banks, we would have a currency that maintained its purchasing power. As industry found new and better ways to manufacture the increased quality and decreased cost would benefit consumers . Thus cars would still cost $50 just as they did in 1913 or less, houses $500 but they would be much better cars and much better houses. Everything would be like computers which have improved so much and so rapidly that even 9% inflation has not made them more expensive. In such a society saving would be obviously worthwhile as ones capital would buy more and better goods if saved and spent later, there would be no need for compulsion and probably little need for social security either .

160 This savings plan is put in for the same reason that long term W9 contracts are nearly impossible nowadays.A W9 allowed you to pay your taxes quarterly and in between, invest/save at will.That kept your money out of a general slush fund.

That's one thing and the other is bound up in how you define "poor". When you get far out into the backwoods you'll find the people there trade in hand skills or the products thereof. Paper money is more for dealing with taxes and fancy things your women may favor.

Hand skills and research into stable 3rd world countries can make for a pleasant retirement. The Brits have been doing this for a long while. Not such a large sum is needed.

161 navybrat at August 18, 2013 02:41 PM (6msQC) ******************** If the tax base was going up and up ie. wages then there would be a light at the end of the tunnel despite money expansion. But our economic policies ensure wages will continue to slip against inflation. At some point it won't be happy times. Maybe not an ending but a prolonged misery.

162 Good chace 10077 Ranch will be hiring ExPats...

Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at August 18, 2013 02:41 PM (j3uqc)

Will send a resume and letters of recommendation.  I also have really good credit and can help with the downpayment.  I will need my own room.  And electricity.  Anything else is somewhat negotiable.

:-)

163

Posted by: Peaches at August 18, 2013 02:50 PM (8lmkt)

 

I brew beer.

Also theoretically I can distill (I've done small scale distilling in the lab, obviously larger scale requires space and equipment that would be very hard to hide here.)

164 I am taking a good hard look at Chile.

165 If the government at all levels wasn't bleeding us dry, having money to save would not be a problem. It's as simple as that.

166 " Maybe not an ending but a prolonged misery."

This is now.

Inflation is real. The government lies about it constantly. That is why it excludes food and fuel from its calculations. Take the most volatile aspects out of your calculations and everything is peachy.

167 163 have a rich friend left for Chile a decade ago. Get emails once in a while. Never looked back. However, he is there because he is betting USA fails. I think if we go it will be a world wide disaster.

168 Kind of like Social Security? Government will raid any pile of cash laying around and leave you an IOU, backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. Once they run out of suckers to sell bonds and certificates to, they'll replace the IOU with more worthless paper imprinted with a picture of a president and a dollar amount. I'm envisioning Barack Obama in the middle. We can call the notes "Baracks", as in, "got a spare Barack, pal?"

169 161 Peaches, Electricity's a given... Heh I'm hoping to own a spread with volcanic ash and truck some to the farm further south.

170 One of the differences between the truly wealthy and the rest of the world is their time horizon: they think in generations while too many of us think only as far as lunch.

171 Look, I am responsible for my brother.  The rest of y'all can go to hell, or California, which ever is closer.  Do you really think those baffoons in California can keep their hands of ready cash collected from the fools that voted them into office?  Remember the Social Security Trust Fund Lock Box?   How's that working out for you?

172

How about the effect of TV and advertising. As never before we are bombarded with the message that what we need to be happy is a transaction away. That having the next thing will make us better somehow. That we the Jones have more than we so it's time to catch up.

That from the guy who just dropped 13K for a new hot tub...

 

173 Social Security was always basically a Ponzi scheme. The pols presumed that there would always be more more coming in than going out; they "saved" the net by "investing" in special Treasury bonds (that is, the gov't loaned the money to itself.) They also kind of presumed that life expectancy would remain in the high sixties didn't presume that so many people wouldn't start working until their mid 20s. The main reason SS hasn't gone broke yet is because the percentage of the adult population working is much higher than it was decades ago. 

and do you remember that show a couple of years ago with Geena Davis as President? Did anyone actually watch that show? I saw the first episode -- rubbish.
If they want a show based on Hillary! as Sec of State, they should go for realism and get Rosie O (in drag) to play the lead role.
Remember, when anyone tells you about Hillary!'s accomplishments, ask for one thing of note she did in eight years as a Senator.

174 Great liberal fascist ideas, early C21st version: increase, by fiat, marginal propensity to save in the middle of a recession. Fuckwits.

175

I wouldn't trust the gummint to hold my beer while I took a wizz

---

OK, you hold the beer, we'll hold your pecker.

176 This shit is already happening with 401ks. By default now, every new employee is enrolled in the company's 401k and 1% of your salary is invested. You, as an employee, have to actively tell HR, you don't want to be enrolled. The little dirty secret of 401ks is that in general, they sucks ass. That's because the people who decide what funds will be in the 401k have no clue what they're doing. It's an HR $12/hr clerk who makes the decision. And she will usually pick awful options. Want to retire rich? Rule #1....run the fuck away from your company's 401k.

177
    If this country fails,so too will the rest of the world. Isn't anything to replace us.

    That means I will be right here rebuilding what I can.

    Also means that anything I can do to prevent such a catastrophe is going to be done.

    Y'all can help or not,your choice.

178 171 How about the effect of TV and advertising. As never before we are bombarded with the message that what we need to be happy is a transaction away. That having the next thing will make us better somehow. That we the Jones have more than we so it's time to catch up. That from the guy who just dropped 13K for a new hot tub... Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at August 18, 2013 02:57 PM (dPkj5) ________ The worst recent example of that is phone companies now telling people 2 years is waaaaaaay too long to wait for a new phone. Why if you just pay use $30 extra a month you can get your brand new phone in 16 months. Cuz like you don't want to be the loser at a party who has a (GHASP!!!) 18 month old phone do you? I want to throw my 3 year old phone at the TV every time I see that ad.

179

Look at government incentives...er...disincentives for saving money. Taxes, write-offs and loopholes. Start there.

Remember the eighties and early nineties, when it was 'cheaper' to go into debt and get tax write-offs instead of saving or investing your money? You were actually penalized for saving and  investing your own money. You still are. That hasn't changed. It's only gotten worse. These days, you think it's all normal Because this negative economic behavior and incentives have become normalized, you can't figure out why people don't save their money in this day and age. The government then sold going into debt as a way to get rich and 'save' money. The American people, in general, bought it, hook, line, sinker.

Currently, there are other problems involving banking and banking regulations that place disincentives in the way of saving money. Add in the fact of 'hidden' inflation, and you're better off spending your money than letting the government or the banks get it.

You're conflating cause and effect and are trying to solve the wrong problem.

 You want people to save money and invest it? Get government out of the way, first.

180

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at August 18, 2013 02:59 PM (HDgX3)

 

And turn down the employee match?

By that logic, I'd have to loose 5% or more on my 401k to justify running away from it.

Listen, admittedly the 401k isn't doing great right now, but it's still gaining money, not loosing. (Even the dead end one from my last job is more or less holding steady.)

I'd have to add up my contributions, but I'm 99.99% certain that I haven't lost my employee match in value, much less my employee match plus any or my money.

181 If this country fails,so too will the rest of the world. Isn't anything to replace us.

That means I will be right here rebuilding what I can.

Also means that anything I can do to prevent such a catastrophe is going to be done.

Y'all can help or not,your choice.

Posted by: irongrampa at August 18, 2013 03:01 PM (SAMxH)

Right on, irongrampa, you are so right.  I am not leaving this country.  Count me in!

182

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at August 18, 2013 03:01 PM (HDgX3)

 

This makes sense if you switch to one of the smaller phone companies (like Straight Talk) where you have to bring your own phone.

If you're on any of the big 3, take your upgrade as often as you get it.  They've already factored in the price of the phone into the plan, so by not upgrading every 2 years (or 18 months is what AT&T lets me do) you're losing money.

But yeah the whole "new device anytime" phone leasing thing is really strange.

183 ask for one thing of note she did in eight years as a Senator.

She introduced the bill to provide 2-1-1 service.

roflmao

184

Although I save in 401K accounts, I do so with some awareness that (1) There are actually dickheads in the government who want to confiscate the accounts 'for my protection' Argentina style but don't yet have the numbers to pull this off, and (2) The hyper-inflation that's coming will tend to destroy the value of savings, and the artificially low interest rates imposed by the government to 'stimulate the economy' or whatever are currently preventing use of instruments such as money market funds to offset the inflation losses.

 

People don't trust the future.

 

 

By the way, if the proposed mandatory savings program were ever enacted, the money would be stolen by the government and replaced with some  worthless IOU, just like Social Security. You can count on it.

185 "The little dirty secret of 401ks is that in general, they sucks ass."

------------

They're a decent option for people who don't know much about investing but want to put some money away for retirement. Yes, there are better options if you know what you're doing, but it beats leaving your money in bonds or a passbook account for 30 years.

The idea that average people can invest as well as professionals can is a fallacy -- you take your car to a mechanic, you have your plumbing fixed by a plumber. You do this because the risk of failure in these endeavors is high and the impact of failure is likewise high. How much higher will both variables be in money-management?

But remember: I'm talking about *investing* here, not *saving*. Anybody can, and should, save. It's not hard, or even particularly complicated. It just involves some decision-making about what you are and are not willing to sacrifice in the short-term.

186 OT, but as I was listening to the radio, ABC news came on.  The top story was...Bob Filner.  Didn't hear the whole thing, so I don't know if it was a "poor beleaguered mayor has to fight false charges " story, but the fact that it's being mentioned at all is something.

187 Governments can and do bankrupt utilities, especially those that don't do the right payoffs to politicians.

Look at Pacific Gas and Electric in 2001.  The state government wrote a law to make them fail by buying on a floating power market while fixing retail income.  After they came out of bankruptcy, the state government made their butt boy.  The new CEO can implement the latest lunacy from the state fast enough.  They become a back channel method of taxation through electric rates.

188 both Chile and Singapore have recently shown that mandated saving plans accumulate capital. Authoritarian, yes. Silly? Not so much.

189

Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:06 PM (G8OwX)

 

Arguably yes.

Direct deposit has changed that though. It requires less thought than it used to.

My wife and I put $25 every pay period into our savings account directly.  Is it a ton, no, but it's some, and it's done automagically!  We don't even see the money.

What never hits our checking account is a lot easier not to spend.

 

Back when I had full employment we put half my check in there automatically as well (now that I'm doing the academic equivalent of Odd Jobs, my entire check goes in there, but it's significantly less.)

190 both Chile and Singapore have recently shown that mandated saving plans accumulate capital. Authoritarian, yes. Silly? Not so much.

Would California follow the same plan as Chile or Singapore did?  If not, why not?  The answer to that shows why it's a bad idea.

191

Posted by: Jerry Brown at August 18, 2013 03:09 PM (ZuiHO)

 

Prize linked savings would make more sense.

But those are illegal because government wants control over the lottery.

192 My wife and I put $25 every pay period into our savings account directly. Is it a ton, no, but it's some, and it's done automagically! We don't even see the money.
What never hits our checking account is a lot easier not to spend.

------------

Sure, and good on you for doing it. But are you doing it for retirement or just "in case"? There are many kinds of saving, and I argue that the strongest case for saving has almost nothing to do with retirement because none of us can see that far ahead. I encourage saving for emergencies and unexpected opportunities. If the water heater breaks or the car blows a head-gasket or one of the kids breaks his leg playing soccer, you don't have to go into debt to fix it. If you want to put in a new toolshed or replace the ailing lawnmower, you can do it without going into debt.

Having money saved acts as a buffer against the vicissitudes of life. Carrying debt reduces that buffer.

193 If those welfare programs were not so ubiquitous, if they hadn't been created in the first place, people would have taken their cues from negative examples a long time ago, and would have done the sensible thing themselves. Part of the societal rot is the result of having separated people from the short and long term consequences of their own foolish behavior. This methodology creates a Democrat voter mindset. That it is unsustainable doesn't worry those who ride this mindset into power. By the time the problems arise, they will have GOT theirs.

194 Would California follow the same plan as Chile or Singapore did? If not, why not? The answer to that shows why it's a bad idea. Posted by: Blanco Basura at August 18, 2013 03:11 PM (JawqV) California would spend the money, same as Tip O'neal and the Social Security "Lock Box." The notion that Democrats wouldn't get their greedy little paws on that money and spend it is nonsensical.

195 172 ---Remember, when anyone tells you about Hillary!'s accomplishments, ask for one thing of note she did in eight years as a Senator. Posted by: Mallfly at August 18, 2013 02:58 PM (bJm7W) --------------- Yeah, and ask for one GOOD thing that she did as Sec of State. She is by far the worst SoS in my lifetime and I'm not talking about policy. I'm talking about her peevish, whiny demeanor; her incessant yapping about domestic politics; her junior-high silliness re things like the infamous RESET button; the gross negligence (at best) leading to Benghazi. Incompetent, to put it kindly. Jimmy Carter was a complete idiot when it came to foreign policy but at least Cyrus Vance was a competent pro. Likewise, Madeline Allbright behaved like a serious diplomat. Hillary has behaved like an amateurish brat.

196 both Chile and Singapore have recently shown that mandated saving plans accumulate capital. Authoritarian, yes. Silly? Not so much. Posted by: Jerry Brown at August 18, 2013 03:09 PM (ZuiH In Chile, the mandated savings go into private accounts and are in lieu of any type of social security.

197 4 This Ghiladouche or whatever is aware of 401K and "social security" that people pay into, right?

Oh, wait, this is another attempt to get the government a new source of funding to rob.

Posted by: Deathknyte at August 18, 2013 01:18 PM (psutb)

 

Yes - Levin interviewed her a few years ago, and her plan consisted of this and seizing of existing 401Ks to put into a government run 'annuity'.

 

I kept thinking: Isn't this what Social Security promised?

 

I told one of my coworkers about it and he laughed. They would never seize 401Ks, he said.

 

Wonder if he still thinks that is implausible. It's funny how supposedly smart people just refuse to see what is staring them in the face. Until it is too late, then they say 'I didn't see it coming'.

198

I don't understand any of this.

You don't save money, you marry it and spend it.

199 @ 191


      Monty, there's no reason that the savings described can't be both-as circumstances MAY dictate.

200 After a conversation with some Indian immigrants (from India), three facts emerged:
1) Africans are not allowed to immigrate to India
2) banks in India are paying 10% interest for retirement funds
3) there is forced retirement in India at age 60

201

just remember, to the government

Savings = Target Rich Enviroment

202 Having money saved acts as a buffer against the vicissitudes of life. Carrying debt reduces that buffer. Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:13 PM (G8OwX) For most of my life I agreed exactly. For the last five years, I have decided that money in the bank is not such a good idea. The feds are stealing the value of that money through both inflation and artificially keeping interests rates down. A Quart of oil used to be as low as 85 cents five or six years ago. Now it's four bucks. Money you earned and saved gets worth less and less every year. Our bank accounts have a hole in them that we can't do anything about. I've been acquiring assets. Things that will be what I call "dual use." Good in a collapse, and good if we don't have a collapse.

203

Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:13 PM (G8OwX)

 

The small savings is for "buffer"

The 401k (which people here seem to hate) is also automagically withdrawn, and we don't see that either.

And thusly it doesn't get taken into account when we create our budget.

 

Will it be enough to retire on? Unclear.  Currently no. At current accrual rates (i.e. just projecting forward our yearly average) assuming retirement in 40 years we'd be looking at just about 250k in principle.

Not enough.

BUT.

I don't really plan on current accrual rates because: a) As we go along, growth in actual dollars should accelerate just due to higher principles b) I plan to not be unemployed for ever and c) I don't plan on my wife's job being locked at this salary forever either. (i.e. when I get a job our retirement savings rate will increase.)

I'm not a fan of the authoritarian "YOU MUST CONTRIBUTE" scheme.  However, if we convince people to set up contributions, I'm willing to be inertia will set in and people will not undo it.

204 My savings plan is to collect up the dollar bills I never spend and sock them away in 25 dollar increments in my underwear drawer. I also put all rebates and money from selling things away in a rainy day fund. Yeah I have a 401k but at the rate things are going it will be worth less than my stack of dollar bills by the time I retire.

205 I choose to spend my money when I can enjoy it. Call me Pro Choice.

206 In Chile, the mandated savings go into private accounts and are in lieu of any type of social security. Posted by: The Political Hat at August 18, 2013 03:17 PM (Vk2pI) This is a better solution than social security, though I don't think we can get there from here.

207 I told one of my coworkers about it and he laughed. They would never seize 401Ks, he said. Wonder if he still thinks that is implausible. It's funny how supposedly smart people just refuse to see what is staring them in the face. Until it is too late, then they say 'I didn't see it coming'. Posted by: blindside at August 18, 2013 03:18 PM (ajjwb) Communists will seize your land. Of course they will seize your money.

208

One of the big reasons I think people don't save these days is that the government has basically made saving money a state crime.  The whole monetary and fiscal system is set up to encourage consumption (and secondarily investing) and to punish saving.  I remember back in the 80's when I was in the Marine Corps I got paid something like 500 dollars and change a month.  Since I lived in the barracks and ate in the mess hall, and beer at the E-club was ridiculously cheap, I just banked about 400 dollars a month in savings.  I think the interest rate on a savings account was like 3-5% in those days, so when I got out of my initial active duty contract I had a nice little nest egg of several thousand dollars, which bought me a 4 year education at a state university.

 

I got an advertisement from my bank recently offering me their super-secret interest rate if I opened up a savings account with them.  The rate was 0.8%.  Are you eff'n kidding me?  I would rather just stick it in a coffee can at home.

209 Can I float the idea all the welfare programs tax us very little. They could be considered the 40 cents of every dollar spent is borrowed. Now that didn't hurt much did it?

210 Will it be enough to retire on? Posted by: tsrblke at August 18, 2013 03:21 PM (GaqMa) With what I fear is coming, you must save millions to have any hope of even a modest retirement. We are 100 trillion in debt as regards our financial commitments. Social Security is now paying out more than it collects. This ship is likely going down.

211 Yeah I have a 401k but at the rate things are going it will be worth less than my stack of dollar bills by the time I retire. Posted by: Paranoidgirlinseattle at August 18, 2013 03:21 PM (RZ8pf) Don't worry. Your stack of dollar bills is also approaching zero.

212 Here in Hungary, the government started letting people put their money into private retirement savings accounts, as opposed to the state system where the average pension comes to about 200 dollars a month.  2 years ago, when the government got squeezed by the IMF, they just went ahead and nationalized all the private pension funds.  If you don't think Obama and his merry-men (and chicks) would do the same thing here, you must have your head permantly stuck in your rectum.  The long and the short of it is, if the government can see your money, they can take your money.  The coffee can looks better and better to me.

213 The whole monetary and fiscal system is set up to encourage consumption (and secondarily investing) and to punish saving.

------------

There is a theory is that money "in motion" is more efficient than money "at rest". Invested capital promotes growth; saved money just sits there and does nothing. This was the motivation behind the implementation of fractional-reserve banking; rather than let all that cash sit in a vault, it was determined to be better to put it to use in investment vehicles so it could grow.

I'm not opposed to this idea, actually. China is a good example of an economy that takes saving to an extreme, and suffers for it. Too much capital gets bound up in savings, and thus the private sector suffers because there are comparatively fewer dollars chasing consumer goods and services.

The problem is that the Keynesians fractured the real-money underpinnings of the monetary system, and replaced it with fiat money. In a sound economy, money has actual value; it's not just pieces of paper. Whether it's "in motion" or "at rest", it carries its value with it. In the fiat system this is not the case -- "value" is determined at the point of contact, and thus is highly variable as to time and place. This spells high volatility, and over time, a terrible depreciation in the value of each unit of currency. Keynesianism would never work in a hard-money system, which is why as Keynesianism rose, so did the notion of fiat currency.

214 Really? So your hard earned money from this forced government savings will be there waiting for you all fat and happy when you retire. Won't be spent on anything else. Really?

215 Keynesianism would never work in a hard-money system, which is why as Keynesianism rose, so did the notion of fiat currency. Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:33 PM (G8OwX) So I take it you are a specie supporter? Good man.

216
   When wife and I were young IRA'swere hot.  We maxed out the contribution (3k,iirc) dividing it by 52.  We made the contribution into a dedicated savings account, taking it of the top BEFORE any other expenditures.

    40-some odd years later, there is a handsome sum for each of us, in addition to the other stuff we have.

    So you CAN save, but it takes determination.

217 game thread up

218 What I see is this. We are new Rome.

219 211 (TanarUr) is being kind. If they can see your money they will take it sooner or later. They will steal your money from the coffee can by inflation. They wanted to do this in the great depression but they din't have computers to automate it. I suggest what ever money you have surplus you use to make friends and have a good time.

220 So I take it you are a specie supporter? Good man.

----
We-e-e-ll...kind of. I'm a goldbug, but I wouldn't advocate a return to the gold standard for lots of complicated reasons it would take too long to explain. But I would like a return to hard money, perhaps based on an internationally-recognized basket of commodities or something. The world financial exchanges are mature enough to make such a system viable, and exchange rates can be almost instantly propagated to remove the arbitrage problem between local currencies. I also advocate a privatized currency (actually, several of them, for redundancy) keyed to this system. Think something like Bitcoin, only less inefficient.

221 So you CAN save, but it takes determination.

Posted by: irongrampa at August 18, 2013 03:35 PM (SAMxH)

How long before you didn't even notice the contributions?

When I first started working I put the max into everything, and just dealt with being short at the end of the month. I quickly got used to it. It wasn't even a big deal after a year or two.

And an unexpected benefit was my learning how to cook. It's a lot easier to handle being broke for a week every month when you know you can eat well at home.

222

212 Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:33 PM

 

Exactly so, Monty.  That is why I just don't understand when people come up with these articles from time to time bemoaning the fact that people don't save money anymore.  I mean why the f**k would they?  In the past, we had the old parable of the ant and the grasshopper, and we all were told we should be like the ant.  These days, the ant would be a numbnutz and the grasshopper is held up as the model of financial "patriotism", as Joe F. Biden would say.

223 218  They wanted to do this in the great depression but they din't have computers to automate it. I suggest what ever money you have surplus you use to make friends and have a good time.

Posted by: Huggy at August 18, 2013 03:38 PM (nZj0F)

Of course they did during the depression.  FDR did it by nationalizing gold and setting the price by smelling his own farts while in the bed in the mornings. 

That is when the great inflation race started and it has never stopped.  The numbers you see right now are an outright lie.

224 Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:38 PM (G8OwX) On this one science website at which I post often, I floated an old idea. A Financial system based on Energy. You can't tamper with it because the base unit is clearly defined. Currency would be energy credits. Some people loved the idea, others hated it. Dunno. Just trying to think out side the box.

225 "...I wouldn't advocate a return to the gold standard for lots of complicated reasons it would take too long to explain."

Posted by: Monty at August 18, 2013 03:38 PM (G8OwX)

Vote for me and silver and I will make you rich!

226 I sure could do with some buttered peas right about now.

227 With interest rates so low, there's little incentive to save. A money market account pays roughly one-tenth of a percent per year.

228 game thread up

be still, my heart

229 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 18, 2013 03:40 PM (gqgiP)

well, hello, my friend!!  did you enjoy last night's major league baseball game?  bwahahahahaha!!!

230 The game thread confuses me...but then again, everything does.

231 Of course they did during the depression. FDR did it by nationalizing gold and setting the price by smelling his own farts while in the bed in the mornings. That is when the great inflation race started and it has never stopped. The numbers you see right now are an outright lie. Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 03:41 PM (lZvxr) A $20.00 gold piece was there for awhile forth nearly $ 2,000.00 Yeah. Inflation.

232 I like games where there's free shit behind a numbered door.

233 With interest rates so low, there's little incentive to save. A money market account pays roughly one-tenth of a percent per year. Posted by: sauropod at August 18, 2013 03:42 PM (G/vW6) I'm still saving, but I have switched to buying assets wherever I see an opportunity for a good deal.

234

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 18, 2013 03:40 PM (gqgiP)

 

I suspect this is going to vary by situation.

My wife never noticed the contributions. In part because we had more money than we needed (i.e. we were living below our means.)

Now that such is not the case, we don't really "notice" the less money in that in our case it's all auto withdrawn.

We took the net going to our primary checking account as our "income" and went from there.

If you pretend the money going into the various savings mechanisms "doesn't exist" (and for all intents and purposes it doesn't) it makes it harder to miss it.

(Of course as Monty pointed out, you need and additional "buffer" if we didn't have the cash savings account precisely for that, it'd probably be more tempting to turn off the retirement account contributions.)

(We also have an odd IRA, but that was a tax dodge to drop us a tax bracket one year.)

235 You can't tamper with it because the base unit is clearly defined. Currency would be energy credits.

--------

Yeah, I've heard variants of that. In fact, that's what the whole carbon-trading racket is supposed to be based on. Most of the theories I've heard are little more than witchcraft; there's not much science to it.

Money and energy seem like they should be linked because energy is scarce, and for money to be worth anything, it must be either made of something scarce (gold) or based on something that is scarce. Any valuable thing is almost by definition rare to some degree. The idea is that as our ability to generate energy grows, so does our collective wealth. If you key a currency to a unit of energy (say, a calorie of heat) then your national wealth scales with your energy output. In the abstract, this isn't a bad idea, but in practice, it's hard to do.

And there is the problem of "energy inflation". If there are financial rewards to over-generation of energy, we will do it because the incentive would be there to do it. You'd have a bunch of worthless generating plants being built to generate power ("wealth"), but without the ability to actually deliver that energy in any useful form to the economy. (The Chinese are notorious for this.)

236 A $20.00 gold piece was there for awhile forth nearly $ 2,000.00


Yeah. Inflation.

Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at August 18, 2013 03:44 PM (bb5+k)

The best quote I have every seen about the $20 gold piece came from Guns and Ammo way back in the 60s.  They were doing a review of the venerable Winchester Model 94 and they said "way back when this gun was first released you could buy one for a $20 gold piece.  You can still buy one for a $20 gold piece."   I laughed my ass off.  And that was in the 60s.

Someone said earlier that the dollar has dropped 97% in the past 75 years are so. That is a huge underestimate.  It has dropped 40% using the false Obama numbers just since Obama took office.

If you look at the old small grocery stores pictures on Shorpy you will see that back in the early 30s a can of Campbell's soup cost 5 cents.  (Think convenience story here too).  Now at Amazon it runs $1.20/can plus shipping if you buy a whole case. I would hate to see the price in a convenience store.  Probably along the lines of $2.50.

237 A retirement plan for anyone under 50 should be an easily defended bit of land that you can grow stuff on, and access to a fresh water source.

238 So pay tell how are these people going to be able to save if the new normal is having two or three unbenefited part time jobs?

239 It would probably be too big of a leap, and like you say, the value of it might vary by newer energy sources coming on line. Deflation would be as objectionable as inflation. That being said, did you read the story about the Solar array in Spain where the contract read that the company would be paid so much as long as the system was generating electricity? They brought in Diesel generators to light up the panels at night so they could get paid for the panels to generate electricity at night. Apparently they were getting paid more than it cost to operate those generators.

240 Hooray! Finally broke through the 16.9 trillion barrier.

241

Posted by: National Debt at August 18, 2013 03:59 PM (mETGQ)

 

Oh the accounting tricks of fanny and Freddie finally ran out.

242 That is a huge underestimate. It has dropped 40% using the false Obama numbers just since Obama took office. Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 03:53 PM (lZvxr) I've noticed a LOT of inflation since Obama took office. I don't know if you have Whataburgers where you are, but here, they were $ 2.52 five years ago. Now they are right at $ 5.00 . A quart of oil is four times it's price five years ago, a quart of transmission fluid is five times. Everything has gone up in cost dramatically, and this is why i'm scurrying to become independent as quickly as I can. Grow my own food, make my own fuel, manufacture my own equipment and parts. That's the direction i'm trying to go.

243 A retirement plan for anyone under 50 should be an easily defended bit of land that you can grow stuff on, and access to a fresh water source. Posted by: TanarUr at August 18, 2013 03:53 PM (S4N/h) You have hit upon my "retirement plan". Actually i'm trying to go a bit beyond just that. I'm trying to create a hub around which a solidified community can better withstand financial shock propagating outward from a collapsing system. I aim to keep the engines running.

244 My explanation for why people don't save is much more mundane.  I agree that several other factors mentioned in the post and the comments are contributing as well.  I think for a great many people they simply saw SS as their retirement and therefore had an easy answer for not saving any further.  I can't tell you how many people over the years have looked at me like I was some kind of fool when I asked them about a retirement plan with an employer or other investment accounts for their retirement.  Their reply was a dismissive "well, we'll have our social security".  They didn't realize that it was not intended to be their sole retirement income, or that it might not even be there when they needed it.  And I think the government was perfectly willing for them to see it that way because then people didn't complain about the deductions.

245 The CA proposal is just another tax/Ponzi promise. The rich will love it, because what do they care, it doesn't affect them, and they love dispensing favors to the peasants. Just stay off my Malibu beach, bitchez.

More and more, the family destruction that these schemes engenders is being seen in all segments. The government has long replaced the father in black families, and now it's hitting white families too. In the lower classes, single motherhood, with a bunch of different daddies, is becoming the norm. And in the old days, elderly parents moved in with the kids. Most people don't do that now!

So they destroy our support structures, then step it in with even draconian measures to mop up the damage. It's a terrible cycle, and I'm afraid of where it will all end.

246 Adam Smith could see the problem with silver. Tulips wilted. FDR took the gold. Wait! I know! Diamond Standard!

247 Some people won't save. Similar to people who can afford health insurance would rather but stuff for today. Like Popeye's friend Wimpy the ggeat philosopher said "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today".^[ 

248 Gamboling, cavorting, and capering are all, strictly speaking, legal.

249 Similar to people who can afford health insurance would rather but stuff for today.

Oh, drive through the fuckin' projects sometime and check out all the satellite dishes . . . I don't have that, I guess because a lot of my money goes for their fuckin' dole bucks.

250 Company pensions are not 100% reliable either.  My grandfather worked for PanAm for 45 years.  Started out as groundcrew in the early 40's and retired as flightcrew in the mid 80's.  About 1-2 years after he retired, Lockerbie happened and PanAm went tits up.  Luckily my gramps was an extremely frugal and prudent guy, so he had plans B-G in place and is still able to live on his savings to this day.  If he had been relying on his PanAm pension (and why not, what company was more iconic than PanAm, and it was a great pension plan) he would have been eating dog food and would have kicked it from cancer about 20 years ago.  Anyone under 50 who is planning on seeing one red cent of Social Security is a drooling idiot.

251 We already have Socialist Security - we certainly don't need another Federally Mandated Theft.

With that said: People are idiots. 

I've worked in  HR, and you wouldn't believe the % of people who don't join the 401(k) plan.  People with high paying jobs - sometimes in 6 figures - who don't want to have 4% of their pre-tax income taken (untaxed!) and then matched dollar for dollar (or thereabouts).

I've been in plans where you get a 50% match, a 75% match, and 100% for the first 3 or 4% of your GROSS.

But people still refuse to do it.

So... why, again, should I help them when they get to 65 years old and have nothing?  What is my "responsibility" to them, again?

People making $25,000/year, working hard, that I can understand... those are good people who don't have the cash to save.

But if you are making above $35,000/year and not saving *anything?*  You get what you deserve.

And the distinction made here between savings and investing is moot.  Retirement savings is expected to appreciate.  That's part of the normal calculus.

252 <i>And an unexpected benefit was my learning how to cook. It's a lot easier to handle being broke for a week every month when you know you can eat well at home.a</i>

And that there is the secret if you ask me.  People say they can't save, but entertain themselves by eating out all the time, because eating at home is "boring" or something.

253 But if you are making above $35,000/year and not saving *anything?* You get what you deserve.

It kinda depends on where you live, Rob.  In LA, for instance, you can't even qualify for the cheapest apartment in the ghetto on $35k.  And, yet, the pay scale is mostly the same everywhere.  I make what would seem like a very good salary in a lot of places.  Here?  Not so much.  And there are people (mostly illegals, but that's another conversation) supporting families on far less.  I have no idea how they do it.

254 I believe the oldest generation scrimped and saved. The baby boomers were tired of saving and wanted to enjoy life now, even at the cost of the future. Now generations x, y and z are screwed. Credit is also very easy to get v

255 #27 tsrblke at August 18, 2013 01:33 "Which I think is good. but as I said, part of what is being failed right now is the conversion of investments to savings (i.e. people kept their wealth in investments, then the market crashed and wiped them out." No conversion of investment to savings - that's where I am at age 63. My breakdown is 30% real estate (net of mortgages and not investments per se), 10% Obama-inflatobucks, 50% stocks and 10% bonds. Why the hell would I sell shares in productive companies and pay the long term cap gains only to 'invest' in increasingly worthless dollars? At age 87, even my mother now has 15% in utilities and conservative mutual funds. For decades she was used to 3% on Ts and munis, but the last few years, it looked more like 0.1%. Despite the fact she lost exactly nothing with that mix in 2007-2009, she just had to have some small amount of growth and income.

256 Well, I had another counterattack on the "health insurance=right" ready to go, but I guess we'll just follow rules instead. Oh well. No matter---the GOP is all you really need to counter the Progressives.

257 If you look at the old small grocery stores pictures on Shorpy you will see that back in the early 30s a can of Campbell's soup cost 5 cents. (Think convenience story here too). Now at Amazon it runs $1.20/can plus shipping if you buy a whole case. I would hate to see the price in a convenience store. Probably along the lines of $2.50.

Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 03:53 PM (lZvxr)

A can of Campbells chicken noodle (condensed) soup is 79 cents in our local ShopRite in NJ.

258 You Need A Budget y n a b d o t c Free. Do it.

259 GIL, I googled and found ynac for $60; what is dotc?

260 “Ghilarducci plan” ? More like the il Duce plan.

261 I haven't read the comments, so forgive me if I'm repeating ideas already expressed. 1. I think the concept of retirement itself is a false construct of our prosperous age. People should generally expect to work until they are no longer able to. As you get older it would be nice to move into a type of work that is not so physically taxing, but the idea of spending 30 years of your life in idleness on the golf course is ridiculous. 2. I understand people's reluctance to save when inflation is rampant and interest rates are extremely low. You may as well enjoy what you have now. Foolish, yes, but that is the world we live in today. 3. Social Security already takes in about 15% of everything the average person makes (when you add in the employer contribution). What greater percentage of our income should reasonably be used for late life planning? At some point enough should be enough. It probably isn't, but it should be. 4. The huge elephant in the room is the changing social dynamics that have been brought about by the welfare state, causing the exact problems they are trying to solve. People in large numbers are not doing their duty to humanity by raising the next generation, who in turn should be helping to support their parents in their old age. I don't know what the answer to that is, we will probably never get back the kind of birth rates and we need.

262 @ RobM1981 It's called a 401(k) plan because that's the paragraph of the Revenue Code giving the Secretary authority to consider the funds tax-exempt. Because all those funds were created by a federal law, the Democrats are stating that they can be nationalized outright. Pelosi held a hearing on that in October 2009. I would be okay with holding such a fund, but, I have no faith that it will not be grabbed entirely, or, that I will be forced to withdraw the funds (and pay taxes) within a set time-window, or convert the fund to our new Dollar at a 1:1 rate, or whatever other trick denies me the full benefit.

263 258 GIL, I googled and found ynac for $60; what is dotc? 
Posted by: Mindy at August 18, 2013 05:55 PM (bWKZN)

dot com?    Website does have some free info, I guess.  

Mint.com is a useful free web-based budgeting tool (though they data mine you).   You can link your accounts and tag your purchases by category, so you see where your money has gone, vs. what you budgeted. 

264 This seems like the thread for my new insider trading-related law. I don't want to push for anti inside inside trader laws for Congress. Rather, I want them to disclose -immediately- their investment decisions to the public. Let us in on the action. For them and their immediate family members I want to know what they're investing in. I want those sweet, sweet land deals too.

265 May I refer you to the thread prior to this one?  The operative phrase is, "What me, worry?"

266 People don't save their money because it has become a bad deal.

The current administration halvced the value of the dollar since 2008.

That $50,000 nest egg? It now buys 25,000 2008 dollars worth of goods.

( Insert Nelson Muntz laugh here )

And now congress critters are making noise about seizing these funds and putting them into some new kind of bogus "lock box".

And on top of that, when people start to cash these out, the mere act of cashing out on retirement will depress the value of the stocks that make up these retirement funds.

267

Buying stock in a large blue chip utility is the next thing to saving and you earn on the average of 5% return.

 

Posted by: Vic at August 18, 2013 01:21 PM (lZvxr)

 

Not after I get done with things.  MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!11!!1EleveNTy!!@~!@~!

268 "Why don't people save their own money?"

I was saving my own money. Until 2008 rolled around and the recession hit. In January of 2009 the company I worked for went under. It then was two years of unemployment, with only about three or four nibbles that didn't pan out, and now it's an "independent contractor" capacity that currently doesn't quote reach the "treading water" category, so I'm having to tap into what I put into the bank to make up the difference. With Obamacare looming and a lot of firms being reluctant to bring on new full-time employees, it seems I'm stuck.

And in the meantime, the bank balance - all that money that I managed to save up - sloowly shrinks.

269 As a conservative, I will concede that liberals are probably right that if Social Security were privatized or optional, most people wouldn't have a penny to their name when they "retired."

This isn't a Left vs Right problem, I've seen both liberals and conservative individuals not give a damn about their retirement and only live for today. 

I think the better "backdoor" way to privatize retirement is keep expanding plans like Roth, IRAs, Health Savings Accounts and 401ks.  Incentivize through the tax code for people to save.

270 "I was saving my own money. Until 2008 rolled around and the recession hit. In January of 2009 the company I worked for went under. It then was two years of unemployment, with only about three or four nibbles that didn't pan out, and now it's an "independent contractor" capacity that currently doesn't quote reach the "treading water" category, so I'm having to tap into what I put into the bank to make up the difference. With Obamacare looming and a lot of firms being reluctant to bring on new full-time employees, it seems I'm stuck.

And in the meantime, the bank balance - all that money that I managed to save up - sloowly shrinks."

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at August 18, 2013 08:58 PM (Cn4aq)

You are not alone. It's tough out there.

P.S.  I call it "wave hopping".

271 Just looking at this plane of mantdatory savings accounts I have two thoughts, aside from any kind of criticism related to freedom or government overreach.

First, I can see that it appears to operate from day one as a gambling outfit very similar to the insurance industry -- if people die before they can claim their "savings" I presume that money becomes fair game for whatever politician wants to dip in for other purposes.

Second, this is how Social Security started out, but it didn't take long for those collections to be appropriated for other uses (usually on the pretense of politicians having extraordinary minds for managing  "risky investment," though typically nothing of the sort), so what's to stop California, this State with such a remarkable record of money-management, from doing the same here?

Of course, my third, and final reaction, since I will never be a citizen of California, is... Ha Ha!

272 A lot of people on the low end of the income spectrum simply do not make enough money to save for retirement. If the government didn't take so much out of paychecks for social security, which many people aren't even going to see, perhaps they could afford to save for retirement. For those that do make enough money to save something for retirement, it's probably due to ignorance of personal finance. Many people want to live a certain lifestyle, and it leaves them little disposable income. We don't educate our kids well when it comes to finance and economics. We live in a capitalist society and so many people do not know how to function within it. They don't know how to invest money. Reading the Millionaire Next Door should be required reading for all high school consumer ed classes, but the leftists control education, and since they do not like capitalism, they will never allow any common sense education on the subject. It's a great way of undermining the system.

273 I was talking to guy who was bragging he had saved up for a home down payment but later he rolled his eyes when I talked about credit card debt being bad. In other words he has thousand in the bank at zero percent interest and is paying 18% on a credit card. my beef with the article is that lots of people carry things like credit card debt or other debt because they "save" money first because that is what they have been taught. On an accounting sheet they are moving backward. Just telling people to "save" isn't the whole or best advice.

274 I invest quite a bit. Actual savings? not so much. I recently purchased a house, and I drew down on my savings to make a larger down payment. Why? let's see, the interest rate being paid was on the order of 0.2%. That's zero point 2 percent. Not two percent. And no where near the rate of inflation. So that saved money? it is actually losing purchasing power. I was able to put up enough of a down payment to avoid PMI, so that will save me some shekels down the road. And I'll plow that back into additional principle payments. So right now, my savings has four walls and a roof. I have to live somewhere, and the mortgage+taxes+insurance+extra payments is less than the advertised rent on my old place, and I have about twice the space.