1 My insurance has been doing that small network thing for decades.

2 Also, having a $5K deductible pretty much takes card of "primary" coverage.

3 Is there a way to bypass all this with some kind of international insurance? Pay for routine care out of pocket, and if you need an expensive procedure go have it done in Costa Rica or somewhere?

4 Is there a way to bypass all this with some kind of international insurance? Honestly, that's just way too many moving parts to rely on...

5 I'm afraid I may have invited a new troll into the fold. He was remarking on twitter how Ryan's budget plan, which includes the repeal of Obamacare, is a step backwards. I linked this thread.

6

Uhh,

 

No offence tmi3rd, but you're lacking some key components to the concierge medicine phenomena.  Good luck on your MCAT though.  Trust me, however, I know from experience, as long as you can score "Average" and either have a solid GPA to back it up (or are a non-traditional student.) MCAT scores are pretty meaningless otherwise.

(How do I know? Because I was a top 99.5% MCAT scorer, which puts me in the top 50-100, in 2007, yet my GPA was "meh" from my choice to go really really obscure science heavy, so it came back repeatedly to bite me in the ass.)

So if your GPA is "meh" you may want to tank the MCAT (shoot for average!)  Seriously, I'm not joking.  One VP of admissions told me my MCAT didn't match my GPA (whatever the fuck that means) and that's why I didn't get in.

 

Anyway, back to Concierge medicine.

A few notes on it.  Firstly, it's settings itself up for an arms race.  Let's not look at the ultra rich Concierge medicine (like Bill gates has) that basically bypasses insurance.  Let's look at what the average 'ron or 'ronette is going to afford.

Generally speaking concierge docs limit the number of patients they take BUT they'll also limit the number of visits you get under the plan as well.  The last time the department of bioethics had a Concierge doc visit to discuss his plan he allowed 1 well visit every year (every other year for the under 30 crowd) and I think 2-3 sick visits.)

On the surface that's not that bad I suppose.  Especially since he was only charging about $1500-3k I think (per year).  And you're well visit included some basic labs (cholesterol, liver function etc.)

But for run-of-the-mill things like those sick visits (and things like casting a broken arm) Concierge doc still billed your insurance.  I'm told this is fairly standard practice in that industry, it's how they keep costs down.  However this still makes them beholden to the same insurance problems that other docs have.  So you're premium is more or less for the doc's time (as a replacement for insurance, it may or may not do.)

But there's also an arms race happening amongst concierge medicine. It's race to extremes.  Concierge medicine in some places (there's a practice in SC which follows this) charges less, but you get less to (more Physician Assistants, less doc time.) Or it's a race to include more (some concierge docs are trying to group with things like OB/Gyn practices so they can raise their base price.)

And this doesn't even touch upon questions of what happens when a doc goes from "standard" practice to "concierge" (hint: a lot of pissed off patients!)

The problem of course is that under our current societal system, medicine will absorb whatever resources are thrown at it.  Creating new ways to throw resources at the problem (e.g. concierge medicine) won't solve jack shit.

7 My monthly premium went up a total of 42.8 percent from July 2012 to February 2013.  $667 per month, for one person, with some kind of scam out-of-pocket/deductible bullshit that never covers anything.  The only thing it does for me is get me lower rates at participating providers.  Sadly, my main go-to doc and my ENT are not in any insurance networks, so I pay full shiksa retail there.  The whole thing blows chunks.

8 I  have  an  AR - 15  and  I'm  keeping  my  healthcare!  

9 Why, when I looked at the headline, did I immediately assume CAC was the author and that it involved the space-time continuum, turtles all the way down, and the funny white mushrooms you find growing on cow pies?

10 My monthly premium went up a total of 42.8 percent from July 2012 to February 2013. $667 per month, for one person, with some kind of scam out-of-pocket/deductible bullshit that never covers anything. The only thing it does for me is get me lower rates at participating providers. Sadly, my main go-to doc and my ENT are not in any insurance networks, so I pay full shiksa retail there. The whole thing blows chunks. *** Holy cow! I thought my $255 premium was bad. If you are relatively healthy, you should be able to find a better rate.... or so I would hope.

11 Can't force everyone to pay for abortions if you let doctors opt out. Massive fight and we are still in round 1. Panic will set in when the amount collected in taxes drop. Probably already happened but is being hidden by book cooking.

12 I thought my $255 premium was bad.

If you are relatively healthy, you should be able to find a better rate.... or so I would hope.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at March 10, 2013 05:43 PM (piMMO)

 

Esurance actually has a health insurance portal now. (See who needs exchanges!)

You can actually find reasonable plans for decent prices through there.  But as a matter of warning, some jobs require you to take employer insurance or show that you're on someone else's employer based insurance (seriously, I'm not joking.)

So pay attention to that.

13 the Dems cried up and down that "Conservs Want You to Die!!!"...

but it's ObamaCare that is making it impossible for me to do anything but die if I get sick, I can't afford to get sick, i'm not even sure i can afford to die.

all I can do is keep dragging myself up out of bed everyday and go to work.

14 If you are relatively healthy, you should be able to find a better rate.... or so I would hope.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at March 10, 2013 05:43 PM (piMMO)

Can't, Niedermeyer, for several reasons.  The main one is that many of the big insurance carriers won't even quote you if you have had any kind of surgery in the last (spitballing here) 3 years or so.  I had minor tongue and butt surgery (totally unrelated) about a year ago.  My only option would be to up my deductible, which does not appeal to me at all, as useless as the current one is. 

15 I have an amazing insurance broker who, bless her heart, looks out for all this stuff for me.  She is also a rock-solid, barky-loathing conservative.  If there were a better option, I would know.

16 "The bet is that many consumers will be willing to accept these narrower networks because it will help keep premiums down." Too late for me, my rates have already skyrocketed. My rates increased $148 per month instead of the usual $10 per month increase. My guess is that the insurance company made its increase before something in the bill kicked in that would restrict how much they could raise rates. To say that I hate Obama, democrats, and liberals, is an understatement. I'm becoming quite a bitch to anyone who says anything positive to me about liberal policies or the president. And if these people don't like my tone, I don't give a shit. I'm tired of liberals thinking they need to take my money to cover the cost of other people irresponsible or deadbeat behavior.

17 The hospital administrator was touring a rehab ward and found several patients masturbating while one was being fellated by a nurse.
Whats going on here he roared
Well, the chief nurse responded, this guy has private insurance and those others are HMO

18 I had minor tongue and butt surgery (totally unrelated) *** This made me LOL

19 I have individual insurance for myself and my kids. My agent advised me not to "shop" it because come January 2014 you will not be able to take advantage if the not-being-rated-for-pre-existing-conditions thing if you have not held the same coverage since, I believe he said, Oct of 2010. In addition, he said only 12% of individual policy holders will receive an annual renewal rate, with the rest of us to get monthly rates. This means I am totally screwed, and need to apply for a job with the TSA.

20

Despite what the guy who wrote the (otherwise fairly good) Time Magazine article would have you believe, at least some of the massive increases in premiums are a result of Medicare cost shifting.

The government can legislate prices, and then force providers to take them. (The margins for Medicare services aren't great, but they're enough that docs and hospitals can't afford to pass on them.)

So cut 700 million for that program and watch the insurers panic (because they know that $700 million is coming out of their pockets.)

Medicare is not nearly as efficient as people want to believe it just has the power to make itself seem so.

21 Enough doctors around here have left that office visits are like formula 1 pit stops now. Except not much actually gets done at an office visit. And I'm paying more. Can't wait for whatever they call our version of the "Liverpool Pathway." We're so boned.

22 Not that you HAD the surgeries, but your phrasing.

23 FYI Grand Cayman is becoming a surgical destination. Not cheap, but not third world.

24 My agent advised me not to "shop" it because come January 2014 you will not be able to take advantage if the not-being-rated-for-pre-existing-conditions thing if you have not held the same coverage since, I believe he said, Oct of 2010.

Yeah, there's something about "grandfathered" plans.  That is another reason I just suck it up with the one I have.  The whole thing is dirty, though.

I am in the midst of a project for work, which led me to a HHS database of "community health centers," for the disadvantaged, illegal, whatever.  In California alone there are 1000 federally funded resources for these folks.  Tell me again why that asshole in DC had to stick his fucking face into this situation and cost me bank for shitty coverage?

25 Can't wait for whatever they call our version of the "Liverpool Pathway."

We're so boned.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 05:55 PM (bxiXv)

 

I suspect this is why they're pushing so heavily for Physician assisted suicide, it's a "camel's nose" type thing.

Strange though, because IIRC (and this is straight from memory and thus not to be trusted without verification.) anyway, memory serves that a really high percentage of patients in Oregon end up never using the kill pills.  All they really wanted was to have the power to do so.

Says a lot about the current state of medicine I think.

 

We've got a cultural problem that needs to be solved no doubt.  We waste money in medicine like crazy because.."do something damnit!"

Our heart attack catch rate is only marginally better than Europe's but we spend some insane multiplier more (5X? I think, I forgot.)

Mostly because in Europe they run some tests which are highly indicative of a heart attack, if they find nothing they send you home, in the US we say "well, 95% chance it's nothing, but let's spend $10k more to keep you here overnight running a bunch of tests just in case we're wrong."

No one cares because they're not going to pay for it (directly at least.)

26 Alternate plan: Join the Amish.

27 I am in the midst of a project for work, which led me to a HHS database of "community health centers," for the disadvantaged, illegal, whatever. In California alone there are 1000 federally funded resources for these folks. Tell me again why that asshole in DC had to stick his fucking face into this situation and cost me bank for shitty coverage?

Posted by: Peaches at March 10, 2013 06:00 PM (AJM+z)

 

Those CHC's are often mandated to get the so called "CTSA" grants that fund post graduation fellowships for doctors.  That doesn't make them good, necessary or otherwise.

What it does mean in more than a few schools/hospitals use them as recruiting centers for clinical trials.

But there's totally nothing wrong with that, nah, we're not taking advantage of anyone.

28 Posted by: tsrblke at March 10, 2013 06:01 PM (GaqMa) It's even worse than that, half the time they test for nothing but the other half you have to fight like Hell for important tests you actually need. Too much attention paid to the book and not enough to the patient.

29 I work in the medical field (orthopedics) in S.F. and there is a another orthopod here who doesn't take insurance of any kind. He will give you an information pamphlet describing how you can possibly have his fee (or a portion of it) reimbursed by any insurance plan (including Medicare) you might have. He's very busy.

30 Tell me again why that asshole in DC had to stick his fucking face into this situation and cost me bank for shitty coverage? Posted by: Peaches at March 10, 2013 06:00 PM (AJM+z) Because everything must be within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. - Benito Obama (and the rest of The Party).

31 Everyone is trying to game out this mess Obama has made of health insurance and health care. It all comes back to 'if you have money'. Typical for the socialists, if you have money, and can keep it hidden from the socialist, you'll manage. If you don't have money, i.e. middle class, you're screwed. If you're poor you can beg the government, but what you get won't be much.

Under socialism, the rich survive, everyone else, especially the politically inept suffer.

32 That doesn't make them good, necessary or otherwise.

I don't give a shit if they're good.  You want good medical care?  Do like I do and pay for it.  Oh, and stop having babies you can't afford.  I should learn how to say that in spanish. 

33 My Liverpool plan? Hookers and blow in Vegas.

34 Hospice doc jobs are booming, so there's that.

35
When I had my taxes done the preparer was offering me health insurance showing me the subsidize rates for the state run exchanges in California. The high end was about $275 month I'm paying $677 a month. I ask what do I get for $277. Couldn't answer the question.

36 "You're covered if you see a doctor or receive a service within the network, but you're on your own if you go see someone outside of the network. Want to see more docs? It's going to cost you a lot more."

I've seen many instances in which someone had to have surgery with Dr. Quack, even though that doctor's reputation was mediocre, simply because their coverage would not allow them to see a superior doctor right across town.

Sometimes, incredibly, even when that different doctor would have resulted in the insuror having to write a smaller check!

I expect that this trend will continue and accelerate.

I also expect that the culminating end point of this Obamacare nonsense will be to have medical professionals essentially involuntarily conscripted into government service. Not only doctors, but nurses, med techs, physical therapists, and what have you. Their enthusiasm for this will not be marked.

Invest in your health. Drop your bad health habits. Improve your nutrition and exercise profile. Staying out of the clutches of the medical system has never been more important than it is now.

And, carefully consider medical tourism after doing your homework. I've seen people obtain top notch care abroad. The US has no monopoly on medical competence.

37 Under SCOAMTTcare, a doctor cannot provide care for cash if the SCOAMTT declines it. Not even the UK system goes that far. It's such a smelly sack-o-shit.

38 Too much attention paid to the book and not enough to the patient.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 06:04 PM (bxiXv)

 

Some of that is them steering towards more profitable tests.

Take my Mom-in-law.  She's disabled.  Nasty falling problem. Ideally she'd use a wheelchair, but..well..stubborn, that's for a different time.

Any way, she fell once, nastly bruise and a lump on her hip.

We took her to the ER (concerned she may have broken it.

The doc insists on running a Doppler on her leg because "a clot could have weakened her leg causing her to fall."

No you dipshit, she has ataxia (per her disability) as well as severe coordination problems, that's why she fell.

Anyway, we waited 2 hours to get a damned tech in (of course it was overtime) and they billed my Father in law's insurance some crazy amount for it.  Discussions with people who I know familiar with the hospital say it loves to "bill pad" to keep revenue up.  The test was marginally indicated (enough that the insurance bought it) and they get their money.

Meanwhile we can't do anything to leave because taking a disabled person out of the hospital AMA is just asking for a social worker to knock on your door (even innocent, we don't need that, because it's impossible to explain to them that short of tying mother in law down, we can't prevent her from walking even when she shouldn't, trust me, we've tried.)

39 Remember folks - Obama's signature legislastion, once it goes tits up, will have been written by someone other than Obama. So, for him, WIN-WIN, baby. -

40 Everyone is trying to game out this mess Obama has made of health insurance and health care. It all comes back to 'if you have money'. Typical for the socialists, if you have money, and can keep it hidden from the socialist, you'll manage. If you don't have money, i.e. middle class, you're screwed. If you're poor you can beg the government, but what you get won't be much.

Under socialism, the rich survive, everyone else, especially the politically inept suffer.

Posted by: Skandia Recluse at March 10, 2013 06:07 PM (iyzAk)

 

I think this pretty much sums it up.

No offense to tmi3rd, but creating a new problem to address the old problem (that costs more money for people) really isn't the proper solution.

41 I chat with a former colleague on the intertrons periodically. She's left-of-left, blames everything from the economy to a misread putting line on Congressional Republicans. She keeps insisting that "economies of scale" will render everything okey-dokey. Further, she keeps insisting that she knows what that phrase means, all evidence to the contrary. _

42 My other Liverpool plan? Extract terrible revenge upon those who've wronged me! After the hookers and blow.

43 This means I am totally screwed, and need to apply for a job with the TSA.

Please don't pat my ass after I go through the rape-i-scan just because there's stitching on my jeans.

44 She keeps insisting that "economies of scale" will render everything okey-dokey.

Docs already lose money on every Medicaid patient, but they make it up in volume?

45 Economy of scale does not apply to hookers or blow but has been shown to increase terrible revenge by 18.6% by the Walken Foundation.

46 What about pediatricians? The thought that my little ones could be turned away makes me furious.

47 I have a health insurance license from The Before Time that I keep current on. ObamaCare calls for "Insurance Navigators" to be hired to help guide people to the correct insurance plan for them - without bias or a financial interest in the outcome. So, I looked into whether I should become Borg'd and get me some free healthcare and gubmint cheese to boot. The position is not yet defined. Though, iirc, they're supposed to be hired by Summer.

48 Docs already lose money on every Medicaid patient, but they make it up in volume? Posted by: HeatherRadish™, Crankypants Extraordinaire at March 10, 2013 06:14 PM (hO8IJ) And ever thus has been the left's plan - make it up in volume. Or kill peasants, depending on the stage of the plan.

49 The bet is that many consumers will be willing to accept these narrower networks because it will help keep premiums down." If you like your doctor, you get to-- Heh, just kidding. Fuck you.

50 Posted by: Hank at March 10, 2013 06:04 PM (adMMf)

Hank, here on the relatively affluent west side of LA, a really good doctor who takes insurance is increasingly rare.  I've been to one or two of the ones on my PPO plan and, whoa, they sucked.  One guy was probably 100 years old.  I'd do better with a low-cost major medical policy for hospitalization only (which is unlikely to happen but if it did, I'd be bankrupt in about 3 days).  But I don't think you can get those anymore.

51 She keeps insisting that "economies of scale" will render everything okey-dokey.

Further, she keeps insisting that she knows what that phrase means, all evidence to the contrary.
_

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 10, 2013 06:13 PM (9P+hO)

 

There's no fucking economics of scale in medicine. Period bar none.

Even the oft touted "preventative medicine" by all estimations costs more than it "Saves." (whether that cost is worth it because of higher quality of life is a different question all together.)

Also, I'm fairly certain (but still a little unsure) I've read studies that show that the magic birth control doesn't really save all that much either.  (turns out anyone who cares is perfectly capable of determine how many kids they want and having that many, it's the "caring" part you have to have first, not the "free birth control.")

Also the CDC conflates "unplanned" pregnancy with "unwanted." which are two entirely different beasts.

52 "Docs already lose money on every Medicaid patient, but they make it up in volume?" As God is my witness, that is her reasoning. btw - while putting myself through college I worked for a small company, the owner's son ran operations. He came up with some dipshit plan, the net effect of which is that we would lose $2- on every transaction due to the fixed costs for the transaction. He said "Don't We'll make it up on volume" m'okay. Called a headhunter I knew that evening and was somewhere better in about three weeks. -

53 If I'm gonna work, it'll be for the TSA. Get health insurance, can't get fired, can probably go to work stoned and/or steal drugs, and get to feel people up for cheap jollies at will.

54 And ever thus has been the left's plan - make it up in volume. Or kill peasants, depending on the stage of the plan.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 06:16 PM (bxiXv)

 

Actually it's pretty fucking obvious the plan is to utilize modern eugenics to get rid of the "poor."

I've searched high and low for a reason for ObamaCare to mandate every from of female birth control known to man (including surgical forms) rather than generic pills (or heck even condoms.)

The only rationale I can come up with is that you're ability to properly take the pill (cheap) is inversely correlated with economic status.  So you give away free methods that are more or less fool proof and "encourage" people to get them (remember this is the FSA we're talking about.)  and "bammo!" instant eugenics. (Tell me I'm wrong.)

55 The position is not yet defined. Though, iirc, they're supposed to be hired by Summer.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 10, 2013 06:16 PM (9P+hO)

 

Cool, maybe I'll see if I can convince them that a "bioethics" degree qualifies me to advise on insurance. (sarcasm!)

56 If I'm gonna work, it'll be for the TSA. Get health insurance, can't get fired, can probably go to work stoned and/or steal drugs, and get to feel people up for cheap jollies at will. ============================= Good idea. Plus, you can slip nail clippers into the pockets of the people being handraped. An maybe a toaster strudel that looks like an UZI.

57 tmi3rd hits a lot of salient points. Unfortunately, in many ways Emergency Medicine has become primary care by default. Incidentally tmi3rd, if you have any questions about the process you've signed up for, hit me up at conservativecrank at gee-mail dot com as I'm only 6 years out of school myself. Looked at ENT myself too.

58 With my last usurious premium increase notice, I got this whole list of fabulous stuff that they're going to pay for.  Like birth control, pre-natal care, blah blah blah.  I'm 61, thank you for all those valuable additions to my coverage, fuckin' shitwads.

59 "maybe I'll see if I can convince them that a "bioethics" degree qualifies me to advise on insurance. " A state health insurance license and no major felonies would be all that you'd require. If you take tests reasonably well and can spend a couple hours getting familiar with the terms and concepts, most anybody can pass. I did some volunteer Medicare advocate stuff the past couple of years (angry elderly people with questions) with a group of people who were also licensed and, trust me, the health license is not a particularly high bar to clear.

60 The fact is that a free market does not price itself out of the financial reach of its customers. It takes the artifice of government interference to achieve that.

61

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 10, 2013 06:27 PM (9P+hO)

 

Did you see my first post above.

Trust me, I test very well .

(I'm guessing there's some significant overlaps between the terms in what I do now and that test.)

But no, I don't want to hock ObamaCare to people.

62 Ohbytheway, on the topic of premiums--the Mrs. And I currently pay $1600 a month for the two of us for insurance--a good plan, no doubt, but still WTF?!?

63 Peaches, that's my problem too.  I contacted HR about 6 years ago re buying my own, no frkn way.  I don't need prenatal, blah, blah, psych, drug addition yadda yadda yadda coverage.  IT PISSES ME OFF.

64 Alternate plan:
Join the Amish.

I prefer:
Do nothing taxable.
Watch it all burn.
When possible rub liberal and moderate noses in their mess.

The medical system isn't going to survive obamacare. There is no reason to pay for insurance if you don't have reason to believe you can use it in the next year or so.

65 Ohbytheway, on the topic of premiums--the Mrs. And I currently pay $1600 a month for the two of us for insurance--a good plan, no doubt, but still WTF?!?

Posted by: Conservative Crank's iPhone at March 10, 2013 06:28 PM (RFnrQ)

 

Holy Fuck?!

I've got friends with new kids paying less than that.

66 @ 65 yeah but they do not live in Mexifornia.

67 The first indication that SCOAMTTcare was shit is that it came from the SCOAMTT. The second was that it was included the word "affordability" in the title. The third is that it included the words "patient care" in the title. The fourth is that every premise flies in the face of reality and risk management. Dinesh D'Sousa had the goods on the SCOAMTT from the gitgo.

68 In the UK, there are lots of doctors who work entirely outside the NHS system, and lots more who spend 2- 3 days a week seeing NHS patients and the other 2 - 3 days with 'private' patients ( who pay in cash what the doctor charges )


Everyone pays a percentage of their income, just as we do with Medicare, but you can 'opt out'.  The system in Germany is similar, but more complicated due to varying policies by the Lander ( states )

69 tmi3rd "(remember that we get out of school typically about $250K in debt)," Two words: HPSP. OK, that is one acronym, or four words, but you get the drift. No debt unless you call 4 years of obligation debt, but you won't owe anyone a dime unless you want to. Of course, there is a risk you go someplace unpleasant, but when it comes time for residency and you don't match, you could wind up in Detroit. However, if you do go into some specialty like booger-picking, you'll be parked in some cushy pogue CSH which is much safer than Detroit. Anyway, assuming you do get into a school, remember, the reading is only hard if you do it.

70 For a family, we are paying 1200/mon with dental that only sucks a little, that's with a five K deductible. And, it's a Fed policy. That scale shit, doesn't work.

71 Well tmi3rd, good luck on your MCAT. I know for me it made all the difference. My GPA was borderline, but my MCAT was top 90% and I got in after I did that well. Now I'm finishing my first year and let me tell you, it's WAY more work than you've ever had in undergrad. That said, there are a couple of interesting developments in healthcare on the horizon. We had a presentation this week from the president-elect of ACOFP (American College of Osteopathic Family Practice) at our school and the gist was that Obamacare will concentrate the $$ in Family Practice, and not so much in specialties now--at least not to the degree it has been ("The pendulum is swinging back to Family Practice and will stick there for a while." was his quote). He also made it a point to assure us he's doing Very well in Family Practice running his own clinic, and that first-year post-residency positions are paying much more than they traditionally have. That's an important consideration given that I'll graduate med school with over $400k in medical education (includes an MS in Health Science and interest). I've always wanted to be a surgeon but now I'm open to primary care. The other point that was made, and the whole reason I wanted to become a doctor in the first place, is that the new system will incentivize docs to spend more time with their patients, keep them healthier, keep them from reaching the point where they'd have to see specialtists. That's a win-win in the doctor-patient arena. I don't know what health care will look like by the time I'm out of residency (6-9 years). My Jurisprudence professor (M.D., J.D) thinks Obamacare will have a 10-year run and implode. There is constant talk of defunding Obamacare, etc. Whatever the outcome, it is up to us as physicians to have a strong voice in any changes and advocate strongly for a viable program on behalf of our patients, as well as one that doesn't make us gubmint slaves to our practices.

72 Speaking of ENTs, a few years ago I had a day surgery to fix a problem with my sinuses and while he was at it the ENT straightened my septum out a bit (it ain't perfect, but it's better than it was).  My mom flew in to help me out and she was there when the bill came.  $60,000.  Good thing she was sitting down.  After the insurance company was done slicing and dicing the bill my portion was around $280. 

73 What about pediatricians? The thought that my little ones could be turned away makes me furious. Well sure, but it's much cheaper now, under Obamacare, to turn your little ones away. Think of all the money you're saving! This is like going to the grocery store to buy a dozen eggs, and instead getting punched right in the face....but for free! geez...you guys....you'd bitch if they hung you with a free rope.

74 I always read his name as "Timid the Third" even though in reality it looks nothing like that.

75 The fact is that a free market does not price itself out of the financial reach of its customers. It takes the artifice of government interference to achieve that. Posted by: zsasz at March 10, 2013 06:28 PM (MMC8r) Obvious Fact #2,134 that escapes the left. I don't remember the source specifically, but one of my "wait a minute" moments from when I was a kid was some kid's show about some evil factory owner who made and stockpiled products people needed but no one could afford. So, basically, someone spent all their resources making products and then *didn't* sell them, and yet somehow they were rich. Also, apparently that company didn't have any paid employees, either. Or their suppliers. Or the power company. I thought that was pretty dumb, and then I took a college comparative economics class. Hooboy.

76 But no, I don't want to hock ObamaCare to people. ================================ Perhaps recruit an army of angry old people. A 10,000 strong Honey Badger brigade. Who have nothing to lose. My Lib relatives actually say that health care insurance needs to go up before the price of health insurance can come down. I think they eat ants when no one is looking.

77 @ 65 if you were in Mexifornia you could drive your Cheevy up to the your personal EMERGENCY room at the Finest Hospital , say Huntington in Pasadena CA and YEEEHI your covered. But do not go on Mondays thats the busiest day because all the Illegals are too busy on the weekends. If you know what I mean Hombre..

78 OT, but since this is a bitchfest, I have a 4:00 work conference call.  It's Sunday.  I know a lot of people go to church and eat a wholesome, comforting meal with their families.  Me?  Sunday is about drinking beer and performing janitorial services for me and the feline overlords.  Plus, I'd rather have more butt surgery than participate in a fuckin' conference call.  Kill me now . . .

79 And yeah. Obamacare is here to stay. It will very quickly become part of the third rail, even though everyone hates it. Because like Dodd-Frank, it changes the way money moves through the system and it will be impossible to reverse engineer on e it's up and running. We had one shot at it, and that was to get republicans into the senate and White House. It's over.

80 "Docs already lose money on every Medicaid patient, but they make it up in volume?" A lot of private practice doctors limit how many medicaid patients they take. I don't think they have as much of a problem with medicare patients.

81 There were an an entire host of incremental steps that could have been taken without this catastrophe before us.  And it is going to be worse than anyone can even project, both in the effects on healthcare and on costs.  I still can't get over than stupid (and there really is no other word for it) tax on medical instruments.  Instead this thing was like the Crapulus, a Frankenstein's monster of lefty ideas with no/no unifying theme other than a bunch of teenage-level gotcha thinking intended to make single payer a fait accompli because no one will be able to untangle it.

82 I meant opt out of using the NHS; you still gotta pay into it if you get a paycheck anywhere in the UK

83

Ohbytheway, on the topic of premiums--the Mrs. And I currently pay $1600 a month for the two of us for insurance--a good plan, no doubt, but still WTF?!?

Posted by: Conservative Crank's iPhone at March 10, 2013 06:28 PM (RFnrQ)

When I got my notice my premiums was going up almost 25 percent with the usual explanations their was one little line that kinda raise an eyebrow. It stated if I shop around and find something cheaper but didn't like and want to come back. They made it clear they are not obligated take me back as a customer.

84 79 Well,2 shots.CJ Roberts pussied out on the other.

85 Is it wrong for me to pray that the SMOD land on the WH asap?

86 Well,2 shots.CJ Roberts pussied out on the other.

THANK YOU!!!!

87 85 Or a Spectre gunship takes it down?(see the ad for that new movie?)

88 And when the hell is Kim Jong Goon going to nuke us?  I was all excited but now I think he's bluffing. 

89 Roberts hurt me the most because he KNEW what he was doing was wrong ,the President publicly insulted him and he did it anyway.

90 88 That idiot only has a handful of nukes of dubious quality and missiles with dubious ability to take off without exploding,let alone hit a target.

91 And yeah. Obamacare is here to stay. It will very quickly become part of the third rail, even though everyone hates it.

I'm willing to cede that obamacare is as viable as the federal government.

92 My husband went to medical school at Trinity, Dublin. His best friend could not eek out a living for his family in England's NHS and sat in his garage with his motor running until it was no longer his problem, but his wife's. Graham had said that once the UK got going on NHS it was irreversible because no one would vote themselves out of a job. Here, no one wanted to vote themselves into a job last time around. Or else they're just so f'ing stupid they shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway. Sorry, I'm rather bitter.

93 @41

Economies of scale!!!???

Did you slap her?

94 Roberts hurt me the most because he KNEW what he was doing was wrong ,the President publicly insulted him and he did it anyway.

And there are still fools that will tell you that gutless hack was playing 13 dimensional chess.

95 Graham had said that once the UK got going on NHS it was irreversible because no one would vote themselves out of a job. Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at March 10, 2013 06:41 PM (Sptt Government has more in common with cancer than not. Competing branches kind of works, until they learn they can protect their phoney-baloney jobs and votes by cooperating.

96 In 2014 Members of Congress and congressional employees will be tossed out of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program and into the exchanges.  And that's only Congress and its employees; the rest of the Feds are exempt.  This was added to Obamacare because people were complaining that Congress would keep its health insurance while everyone else wouldn't. 



Come open season, which is in the late fall, Congresscritters and their employees may be a very unhappy bunch.  It'll be interesting to see if there are efforts to put them back into FEHB, particularly from Democrats.

97 His best friend could not eek out a living for his family in England's NHS and sat in his garage with his motor running until it was no longer his problem, but his wife's.

OMG, Justamom, that is heartbreaking.  I'm so sorry.  And you are absolutely correct about why we will never, ever be free of this craptastic Obamacare.

98

We had one shot at it, and that was to get republicans into the senate and White House. It's over.

 

The Supreme Court wasn't much help either.

99 Medicaid pays better than Medicare, but you have to nail stuff down in the waiting room. And be ready to refer the noncompliant to the clinic. And be ready for malpractice cases from scumbag ambulance chasers who advertise on daytime tv.

100 In fairness, my premium is an individual plan since I'm a 1099 type. It also costs only another $100 to make it a whole family plan--which would be great if we were the Duggars.

101

We had a presentation this week from the president-elect of ACOFP (American College of Osteopathic Family Practice) at our school and the gist was that Obamacare will concentrate the $$ in Family Practice, and not so much in specialties now--at least not to the degree it has been ("The pendulum is swinging back to Family Practice and will stick there for a while." was his quote). 

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAH.

 

Oh, I laughed so hard. ACOFP is going to say that even if Family practice implodes. Just like ACOG (the American College of Gynos) will say that you shouldn't be an Ob/Gyn if you're unwilling to perform an abortion even (and advocate for "choice") as the country remains split on that.

Fact of the matter is, Obama care makes is going to insure more people, and studies repeatedly show that you're average insured person is about as far from a "rational actor" (economically) as you can get.

I expect to see more payments to ERs (because insured people are remarkably likely to skip the primary care doc and go to the ER for some sniffles) and completely unneeded specialists as a result of this.

 

Doing well in family practice is totally possible, you just have to work your ass off. (not that that's a bad thing, except in that it doesn't bode well for medicine in general)

102 When Reagan signed EMTALA (hospitals MUST treat non-paying customers in ER) it set us on the course to socialized healthcare.

103 And when the hell is Kim Jong Goon going to nuke us? I was all excited but now I think he's bluffing. Have you read the story of the birth of his grandfather? He wasn't just born, he actually walked out of his mother's vag. This shit is actually fed to the populace of NK. Their leaders are living gods....which happen to die every few decades, for some reason....99.9% of everything that comes from NK is puffed up bluster to impress the peasants. If we called this chubby little troll's bluff, he'd fold like a house of soggy cards. They claim that food aid from the UN, and the U.S. is tribute to their divine leaders. And we continue to play along. o_0

104 103 FDR tied us into an insurance-based system, douche. It was doomed from that point on.

105

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I am at March 10, 2013 06:44 PM (usDF9)

 

The FEHB isn't as good as everyone makes it out to be honestly.

My wife's in it.

Her insurance premium was (I shit thee not) 8X more expensive than mine and about 80% as useful.

FEHB only looks good because each various agency has negotiated a percentage of the premium they pay for their employees (and some like the Post office has stupid high numbers).

Plus there are too many choices for the actual economics of scale to set in.  The people with the worst health cluster on the best plans until they implode then move on to the next plan that's cheap (seriously, my wife watched this happen to 2 plans she was on at various times.)

106 When Reagan signed EMTALA (hospitals MUST treat non-paying customers in ER) it set us on the course to socialized healthcare.

That was the case long before Reagan.  I know this because my dad was a hospital administrator in the late 60s/early 70s and it was the case then.

107 60The fact is that a free market does not price itself out of the financial reach of its customers.

It takes the artifice of government interference to achieve that.

Posted by: zsasz at March 10, 2013 06:28 PM (MMC8r)


that's just crazy enough to be true!

108 The problem is that health care was boned long before Obamacare was proposed -- and they sold Obamacare as a reaction to the boning they were responsible for in the first place.

A good start for the background on this might be http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=218233 -- and a gem from his archives http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=3012292 .

The latter notes that the inflation-adjusted cost for a normal delivery in 1963, including 3 days in the hospital, would be under a grand today.

109 When Reagan signed EMTALA (hospitals MUST treat non-paying customers in ER) it set us on the course to socialized healthcare.

I hate to agree with the troll, but the bottom line is true. You cannot have a functioning market without the ability to refuse service to those who can't or won't pay.

FDR tied us into an insurance-based system, douche. It was doomed from that point on.

Okay, I stand corrected. Doesn't change the fact that EMTALA needs to be abolished.

110 "Much as I'd love to say we can realistically repeal ObamaCare, I'm not convinced our political leadership has the fortitude to do so." You don't say?

111 Ddiddly- I am going to assume your post in in earnest. Uh, if so,, I hate to disappoint you but the only way to make money in private practice is to be in a big group to share expenses and run patients through the mill seeing a nurse practitioner. Private practice around St. Louis is on its way out, as the hospitals have been buying all the residents for years. Time with patients is for idealists who are unwilling to change their practice model and make 1/3 to 1/4 of what salaried make, like my poor but proud hubby. PS I was a regional manager and underwriter for Humana.

112 TY for such a great explanation of whats to come. Its sickening, just upsetting to all who have a chronic illness especially. It's not one stop shopping for these people. To me its all about "taxes" everyone gets a piece of the pie with this "pass it to know whats in it" health (care)?! Thomas did everyone nasty when he had the chance to vote it down, but, instead voted for it. However,
I dumbocrats who wanted this, DON"T HAVE TO USE IT!

113 OT but medical related:

Today, Dr. Ben Carson's GIFTED HANDS ebook is $1.99. Nook, Kindle and iTunes. Retweeted by Dr. Ben Carson

Here's a link to the Amazon page:

http://tinyurl.com/ayqr8dz

114 shitty care for everyone !!!!  It's more fair !!!!  Yay !!!


and there was great rejoicing.

115 Oh, I agree that EMTALA was a major fuck. But we were already socialized through SS, Medicare, Medicaid and a slew of other gummint buggery. The troll is just looking to kick the bees nest and fap to the buzzing.

116 115 In NY and NJ all the Docs are either working for the hospitals or grouping into corporations ,mostly due to malpractice insurance I think.

117
mostly due to malpractice insurance I think.

Which is why tort reform would have made much more sense than this fuckin' steaming pile of shit known as obamacare.

118 The latter notes that the inflation-adjusted cost for a normal delivery in 1963, including 3 days in the hospital, would be under a grand today.

It's easy enough to see why. My sister had a son last summer. The room she stayed in afterwards was bigger than my friend's condo (which comfortably fits his wife and two daughters).

119 121 Of course,but we all know who are a major,major Democrat constituency.The words rhymes with Moyers.

120 And meanwhile "the great Uniter" will get excellent health care for whatever he needs for the rest of his life- I'm assuming- paid for by the taxpayer. Can anybody tell me one thing that Obama and Michelle will have to sacrifice as a result of Obamacare or as a result of sequester cuts?

121 I about fainted when Ryan said he was proposing repeal again of Obamacare through defunding. Good starting point for negotiations or cruel ploy to make us hope again?

The only thing that might work is to propose exchanges and vouchers, with a variety of private plans, and that's it, and call it Obamacare. Let the jug-eared fool take his credit.

79: I still can't believe it's going to happen.

HMO anecdote, and our future: a really good hospital used to take in heart patients from a local HMO when the folks were in distress after hours. They were all on meds when they should have had bypasses long before. Of course a lot of them died in surgery, screwing up the hospital's stats. The HMO went out of business after a few years.

122 OT!!!!!!!

It's time to tell McCain and everybody else to shut the fuck up and eat their big ass biscuit (they've been allowed to amass their personal fortune but no more should we allow anyone who starts off as a pauper and becomes a king in our political system to survivee (politically)). Their time is over. New blood and new ideas. Milton Friedman and beyond! (i know he's not new but nobody on our side seems to know anything about him namely politicians). GunzHai! 3D printing and beyond!


PS Fuck A Bitch Because I Ain't One!!!
(that doesn't mean a women it means a weak heart)

123 Holy shit, Tiger Woods might win some stupid fucking thing! Post it in the sidebar, rdb! Golf is SO FUCKING AMAZING!!!!

124 Posted by: Peaches at March 10, 2013 07:00 PM (AJM+z)

Peaches,

I noticed a comment way, way up above.....If you are paying retail for your care with your favorite MDs, then negotiate a lower cash price. Talk to them, explain the situation, and tell them that if you get a substantial discount, you'll write the check after the visit. No billing...no fuss...no muss.

You can still submit the original bill to your insurance company for whatever credit you get toward your out-of-network deductible.

Oh, and GO Yankees!

125 Golf is SO FUCKING AMAZING!!!!

Posted by: Waterhouse at March 10, 2013 07:05 PM (zetp2)

Shhhhhh....he's putting.

126 In 2014 Members of Congress and congressional employees will be tossed out of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program and into the exchanges. And that's only Congress and its employees; the rest of the Feds are exempt. This was added to Obamacare because people were complaining that Congress would keep its health insurance while everyone else wouldn't. Come open season, which is in the late fall, Congresscritters and their employees may be a very unhappy bunch. It'll be interesting to see if there are efforts to put them back into FEHB, particularly from Democrats *** I expect to see some serious legal gymnastics in order to avoid the conversion.

127 Was watching the old Dean Cain Ripley's Believe it or Not earlier and it had this guy wit amazing skill with a blowgun(blowGUN morons!).He hit a Grapefruit from 75 feet.Anyway after the pice Dean Cain kind of intones "Blowguns are illegal in California and Massachusettts" The left really is insane.

128 131 I wonder if Tiger went all the way and actually blew Obama off after the round.

129

Meh, Tiger is just another lib dbag. 

130 Is Ace gonna get to 2 million this week?

131 Oh God, my camera shutter clicked, I ruined this amazing athlete's amazing ball-hitting ability.

Fuck! I'm so sorry.

A click! How could I possibly imagine a top-flight athlete could power through the sound of a camera shutter swinging through 180 degrees?

That really is worse than the Holocaust. God, mea culpa.

132 I tried to pay my kids' pediatrician cash when we were on a high deductible plan and she wouldn't take it. Said it was contrary to terms of contracts she had with insurers. She could have if she wanted to tho.

133 138 He got away with having a goon caddy for years too.I doubt any other golfer would get away with what was done on his behalf,on his orders I'n sure.As the media licked his balls (it was crowded down there!).

134 OT- Is it OK to store skis in the attic of a garage? St. Louis? I'm thinking not. ?

135 141 If the heat don't get 'em, the humidity will.

136 My doc is thinking about becoming a plumber since it pays better.

137 Morons, the Vatican is talking an American Pope and I am thinking a Pope Gingrich is in the works.    He has all the prerequisites.

138 Tea and strumpets.  Mmmmmm.  My fav.

139 I'm   loaded   with   STDs   and   don't   pay   a   penny   for   treatment.  Good  to  have  'friends'  in  high  places!  Suck  it,  serfs!!!  LOL!!!

140 Posted on the gun thread but that is kaput. The party of sensible dialog and common sense have taken to posting Colion Noir's address, phone number, etc.

141 That   whoremonger   has   all   the   luck!

142 Tiger won?  Mental note to avoid ESPN for the next few days.

143 You know, this sums me up nicely - http://bit.ly/WfYMzA


It's true.   I nearly fell off Stabby. 

144 Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper

Perry Picklelicker, in case anyone hasn't informed you, humor is not your strong suit.

Stick to regurgitating the Panglossian talking points your man Barry sprays into your mouth. That's much more authentic.

145 The party of sensible dialog and common sense have taken to posting Colion Noir's address, phone number, etc. Posted by: RWC at March 10, 2013 07:28 PM (sqp6o) And Michelle Malkin, and people who stand up to unions, and gun permit holders in several states, and on and on and on. Isolate, polarize, personalize, arson, death threats. They're fucking Soviets. They want pogroms and labor camps. The world won't give them their utopia, and damned if the world isn't going to pay for that!

146 That's right, Picklelicker.

-0.1% GDP growth is The Bomb! Taste the rainbow1

147 Nuke kid in town-A "Hope and Change" cartoon and commentary: http://hopenchangecartoons.blogspot.com/2013/03/nuke-kid-in-town.html

148 It's true. I nearly fell off Stabby. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at March 10, 2013 07:34 PM (Gk3SS) Stabby, Stabby the Unicorn King of the wild frontier Stabby, Stabby the Unicorn Better hide your fucking deer

149 Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 07:43 PM (bxiXv)


*holds up lighter*

150 I don't want to work with reality, I prefer this fantasy land where Barry having our guys over for dinner is a "charm offensive."

Yeehaw

151 To me, the saddest thing about Obamacare is that it is a prime example of a way of thinking that is just disastrous.


There was never any attempt to actually understand the problem before jumping to the solution.  It is just a wild-assed guess and a terribly ignorant one at that.


We should know better.  We are ruled by worst form of arrogant amateurs imaginable.

152 Obamacare was all about getting to single payer.  It's just the first clumsy step.

153 "Panglossian Talking Points" LOL; That's great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlIUXvAdpcw Although I think this isn't the best of all possible worlds for Obama acolytes ; It will be, of course be once, Obama is finished fundamentally transforming it

154 160 To me, the saddest thing about Obamacare is that it is a prime example of a way of thinking that is just disastrous.


There was never any attempt to actually understand the problem before jumping to the solution. It is just a wild-assed guess and a terribly ignorant one at that.


We should know better. We are ruled by worst form of arrogant amateurs imaginable.

Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 07:49 PM (PlzOe)

One big issue is tort reform.  Alas, there won't be any because of trial lawyers' influence over the Democrats.

155 We should know better. We are ruled by worst form of arrogant amateurs imaginable.

Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 07:49 PM (PlzOe)

 

Sadly the idea that we can legislate problems exists at the highest levels of government and academia (which feeds this administration particularly).

 

They need to read some fucking Locke.

Or some Aquinas.

Hell, I'm fairly certain you could even read Hobbes and figure out it's wrong.

156 163 I lurk therefore I am,


Well take heart we've taken the HMOs everyone loved to hate and made it a mandatory club....

"go us"

157 164 TSRBike,

There's a nursery rhyme that covers this one...

it's about Mik'Al'Moor I think....

158 There was never any attempt to actually understand the problem before jumping to the solution. It is just a wild-assed guess and a terribly ignorant one at that. Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 07:49 PM (PlzOe) The problem wasn't the problem they told you it was. They didn't care about "improving insurance and healthcare," that was the excuse. They cared about nationalizing healthcare. Now, people don't want that. So you ass-fuck the healthcare system bureaucratically so that when everything goes to shit they can ride in with a "solution" that gives them even more power. You don't think they pushed the CRA because it would help people become stable homeowners, or tripled the money supply because it would help the economy, do you? It's sabotage, because they think in the end they will get MOAR POWER out of collapse than out of actually letting people make their lives better. They've been telling us this since the 60's *openly* and still, nobody believes it.

159 Hell, I'm fairly certain you could even read Hobbes and figure out it's wrong. Posted by: tsrblke at March 10, 2013 07:53 PM (GaqMa)


You can read Calvin and Hobbes and figure that out.


Yes, I mean that in both senses. 

160

Well take heart we've taken the HMOs everyone loved to hate and made it a mandatory club....

 

Say what you want about HMOs, but they did keep costs down while services remained somewhat high.

(Although I suppose if you lived somewhere where the good doctors could stay out of the HMO you were screwed, that never seemed to happen here, so maybe I'm biased.)

I only point this out because services are dropping while costs are increasing (so we've got mirror image HMOs I guess.)

161 167 Yep.The left has one aim only,power.Absolute power.

162 164 We should know better. We are ruled by worst form of arrogant amateurs imaginable.
Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 07:49 PM (PlzOe)Sadly the idea that we can legislate problems exists at the highest levels of government and academia (which feeds this administration particularly).They need to read some fucking Locke.Or some Aquinas.Hell, I'm fairly certain you could even read Hobbes and figure out it's wrong.

Posted by: tsrblke at March 10, 2013 07:53 PM (GaqMa)

===

all they had to do was talk to a mechanic.   Any mechanic.  You can't fix problems you don't understand, except by wild luck.  Wild luck is a scarce commodity and we are probably all out.

163 You can read Calvin and Hobbes and figure that out.


Yes, I mean that in both senses.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at March 10, 2013 07:55 PM (Gk3SS)

 

Well played, well played.

I like to say "I was a big government SoCon, until I read Aristotle."

A good reading of Aristotle is really quite destructive of the "there oughtta be a law!" mentality. (seeing as virtue has to be practice for virtues own sake.)

Aristotle should be mandatory reading for all legislators.

164 There was never any attempt to actually understand the problem before jumping to the solution. It is just a wild-assed guess and a terribly ignorant one at that. Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 07:49 PM (PlzOe) ----- Call me cynical, but I believe finding an actual solution to an actual problem was not the goal. Using a problem to make more problems and convincing the masses that bigger government is the only solution was the goal. Never let a crisis go to waste. Never let an opportunity pass to create a crisis.

165 The party of sensible dialog and common sense have taken to posting Colion Noir's address, phone number, etc.

Posted by: RWC at March 10, 2013 07:28 PM (sqp6o)

That might not work out too well for them.

He is armed with a Glock 17, and seems to understand its use.

166 He is armed with a Glock 17, and seems to understand its use.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 10, 2013 07:59 PM (3Mkrp)

 

Yeah but he's black and going against "the narrative."

They'll find some way to shut him up. (probably an IRS audit.)

167 HMOs were designed to destroy the individual insurance market and get everyone into regulated group plans. Anything else they did was coincidental. They thought they would have Communist Medicine now, but they had to take another step with Obamacare to sabotage all that and make it unbearable. Government is there to make things shitty so you'll let them take more money and power to "fix" what they broke last time. The "Washington Monument Gambit" is permanent now.

168 167 There was never any attempt to actually understand the problem before jumping to the solution. It is just a wild-assed guess and a terribly ignorant one at that.

Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 07:49 PM (PlzOe)

The problem wasn't the problem they told you it was.

They didn't care about "improving insurance and healthcare," that was the excuse. They cared about nationalizing healthcare.

Now, people don't want that. So you ass-fuck the healthcare system bureaucratically so that when everything goes to shit they can ride in with a "solution" that gives them even more power.

You don't think they pushed the CRA because it would help people become stable homeowners, or tripled the money supply because it would help the economy, do you?

It's sabotage, because they think in the end they will get MOAR POWER out of collapse than out of actually letting people make their lives better.

They've been telling us this since the 60's *openly* and still, nobody believes it.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 07:55 PM (bxiXv)

===

Take two big steps back and look again --- Voters are voting for people with absolutely no demonstrated ability to understand -- much less solve -- any problem, of any kind --- and then capitulating when those assholes say they are solving a problem.

The folks in power may be exactly what you say they are.   WTF is wrong with the rest of us?   We should know you can't solve problems you don't understand.  We should know not to vote for assholes that can't (or won't) get a concept as simple as that.

169 Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 07:55 PM (bxiXv) Merovign, you said it better than I did.

170

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 08:01 PM (bxiXv)

 

Meh fair enough.

But given what we know about the negotiating tactics of hosptials (even so called "non-profits") we do need some way to remove their power of holding payers (whoever it is) effectively hostage.

The ability to set up "networks" and threaten loss of business provided said power.

171 177 The electorate has been dumbed down to the point where they can't see that fundamental truth.Wouldn't understand it if you explained it to them.

172 Heaven Know's Mr.Allison on right now on TCM.

173 Mega OT but here goes: I'm watching The Bible on the History Channel. It's excellent. Truly the Greatest Story Ever Told. Highly recommended.

174 So I have Health Net through work, which is probably the crappiest insurance I've ever had. It's a $35 copay. My GP is through Adventist Care and I will keep him as my GP if I have to pay the bills myself. He's an old school, ex-Army doc. He must have spent over a half hour with me last visit, just going over the pneumonia. When they refered me to the ER for evaluation, a few months back, it was $150 copay AND they wheeled a machine into my room, so they could swipe my card. I don't understand why anyone would go to the ER, unless they have no insurance at all. I've had mixed luck with urgent care. I would say most doctors in urgent care are not the A students.

175 Mega OT but here goes: I'm watching The Bible on the History Channel. It's excellent. Truly the Greatest Story Ever Told. Highly recommended. Posted by: Blacksheep at March 10, 2013 08:05 PM (bS6uW) ------------------------------------------------------------ This. G-d is good. It is the only thing left to hang onto as the world spins out of control.

176 180 177 The electorate has been dumbed down to the point where they can't see that fundamental truth.Wouldn't understand it if you explained it to them.

Posted by: steevy at March 10, 2013 08:03 PM (9XBK2)

====

Agreed.  And this is the location where my war against the machine begins.

I am resolved that everything must be explained.  I am resolved that every explanation must be suitable for a 6 year old.  I am resolved that I will be constantly shouted down.

I am still resolved all the same.

177 WTF is wrong with the rest of us? We should know you can't solve problems you don't understand. We should know not to vote for assholes that can't (or won't) get a concept as simple as that. Posted by: jc at March 10, 2013 08:01 PM (PlzOe) How many simple and obvious questions are asked on *any* large internet forum every day that could be answered in ten seconds with a search? People are lazy and don't inform themselves. Even smart people are lazy and don't inform themselves. Part of the idea of limited government is to limit the harm that does. Unfortunately, the first thing limited governments vote on is expanding their limits, and HERE WE ARE. It is true that 100 years ago people were less lazy and stupid, but when the "education system" started training people to be lazy and stupid, we didn't think it was such a big deal, and so we lost it. Same with the press and eventually government itself. Unfortunately, you can't stop people from being lazy, you need a solution that takes that into account, and we thought we had one but it didn't work out.

178 Anyone who calls Obama scum, a coward, or a POS is a scumbag racist!
And disgusting! IÂ’ve been saying this since Barack Obama became President! Anyone who hates Barack Obama are racist. They hate him because heÂ’s black!
Your friends call the President a fraud, a traitor, a dictator, Perhaps you donÂ’t know what the term dictator means.
The President was born in Hawaii so he is not illegal!
The President loves America. Where else could someone with his background can become President
There is no evidence of voter fraud, as you sore loses are now claiming. Obama won FAIR AND SQUARE!
Narcissism is not an impeachable offense so even if the President is a narcissist that isnÂ’t impeachable.
You mean the President released the name of a CIA Agent endangering the lives of many US contacts around the world? Oh, excuse me, that was the Bush administration
The President was born in Hawaii which makes him an American
The Presidents Cabinet is full of white men. So I guess that he doesnÂ’t hate White people
You have no idea what the word usurper means do you? He won two elections for President
The President is rebuilding America and the economy following the neglect and incompetence of President Bush, Not destroying it!
You obviously have no idea what Marxism and Communism means since the President isnÂ’t even close to either of those.
The President isnÂ’t a liar. But even if he was that is not a high crime or misdemeanor required to rise to an impeachable offense.
The President is coming after the assault weapons and high capacity magazines. State laws canÂ’t work when all the criminal has to do is going to a neighboring state with weaker laws and pick up one at a gun show without any background check.
Federal laws are needed. And no one is going to take your hand gun.
He is a Christian, NOT a Muslim!
The GOP, known by almost all Americans as either the “Party of NO” or alternatively, as the “Party of Stupid” gets a pass for the divisiveness that they’ve poisoned the process, is that right???

You guys are almost as bad as fox “news”

This is another case of blaming Obama for the damages YOU racist righties caused! youÂ’re partially correct; he is the most hated man everÂ….by racists, bigots, most southerners, the KKK, and all the right-wing nuts out there, including you. But he is liked and respected by a whole lot more people. In fact, although he won 53% of the popular vote, the latest Gallup poll shows that his approval is at 58%! He is hated because he is black!
The continuous attempt by the White far-right in Congress to shut down the government rather than work with our black president has a lot to do with racism.
The election of a black President not just once but twice and resoundingly the second time has unhinged many on the far right.
Yes, This President has WON a second term, America has rejected the right-wing fear-mongering! America HAS rejected right-wing hate-mongering! America HAS rejected the far-right brain-dead belief of Americans can ONLY be White and Christian!

We rejected that when we Americans RE-ELECTED Barack Obama as President, and the racist right can’t expect the fact that a majority of Americans DON’T hate having a Black Man, or as they would call it, “Minority”, leading the country!
Republicans: We screwed you all, blaming all our problems on the black guy just didnÂ’t work!

179 Great parody, Question Man. LOL

180 187 - calling someone a "racist" is no way to win an argument.

181 It is true that 100 years ago people were less lazy and stupid, but when the "education system" started training people to be lazy and stupid, we didn't think it was such a big deal, and so we lost it. Same with the press and eventually government itself.

Unfortunately, you can't stop people from being lazy, you need a solution that takes that into account, and we thought we had one but it didn't work out. Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 08:10 PM (bxiXv)


100 years ago the consequences of laziness and stupidity tended to be a bit more final. 

182 His approval rate is not as 58%; It's at 48% http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/barack-obama-presidential-job-approval.aspx

183 100 years ago the consequences of laziness and stupidity tended to be a bit more final. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at March 10, 2013 08:14 PM (Gk3SS) Unfortunately, stupid can never hurt enough to actually stop people from being stupid. But there is a sort of "Laffer Curve" there that we appear to be headed for the wrong end of.

184 Unfortunately, stupid can never hurt enough to actually stop people from being stupid.

But there is a sort of "Laffer Curve" there that we appear to be headed for the wrong end of. Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at March 10, 2013 08:16 PM (bxiXv)



I still think it's mean that Mike Judge got to use the time machine. 

185 I just loved this too: "Obama is a Christian" ROTFL. That explains why his DOJ is trying to deport a German Christian family who fled to TN for asylum so they could homeschool their children in the US-which Germany doesn't allow. How Christian of him

186 Obama is a SCOAMF

187 Don't get me started on how Idiocracy is a bad copy of the end of Hitchhiker's Guide which is a bad copy of C.M. Kornbluth's Marching Morons. I guess there's sort of a self-referential irony there.

188 Don't get me started on how Idiocracy is a bad copy of the end of Hitchhiker's Guide which is a bad copy of C.M. Kornbluth's Marching Morons. I guess there's sort of a self-referential irony there.

189 Pixy is getting bitchy again.

190 100 years ago the consequences of laziness and stupidity tended to be a bit more final.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at March 10, 2013 08:14 PM (Gk3SS)

Hell, you don't even have to go back that far, atc.  65-70, tops.

191 187 TQM,

Giggles is at 48%...probably more like 40% if you get past the "don't pick on the black kid" passive aggressive brainwashed bullshit.

Go fuck yourself.

192 If Obama was the answer I don't want to know the question.

193 If Obama was the answer I don't want to know the question.

Fenelon, I believe the question was "how bad can it get?"

194 I didn't want to know that, Peaches. ;^)

195 Fenelon, I believe the question was "how bad can it get?"

Bzzt.

196 202 Peaches,

My MSN ID has "If Barry is the answer it was a dumb question."

197 He is a Christian, NOT a Muslim! Posted by: The Question Man at March 10, 2013 08:10 PM (3w4WK) -------- Hate to break it to you, but Obama's spiritual mentors believe a person's skin color is what makes that person acceptable or unacceptable before God. It's hard to believe that a Christian would tolerate that kind of heresy in his mentors. If Obama also believes that skin color determines a person's standing before God, then he is most definitely not a Christian.

198 he is most definitely not a Christian.

Is there anyone on the fuckin' planet who did not hear him say "my Muslim religion" on tee vee before he was corrected by that shitbird who was interviewing him?  What part do those still questioning this STILL not understand?

199 Yeah Obama's a Christian like Ice Ice Pfleger's a Catholic...

the city of Chicago is an insane asylum.

200 Well we did find LISA who was mentioned a few days ago. She's on "The Question Man" blog. This is obviously the same fool who cut and pasted something word for word and then mentioned a "Lisa" who isn't even a poster here

201 This is why you teabagging idiots are so shunned by most of the USA.  Obama is certainly no Muslim.  Be critical of his policy but don't leap off the Birther nutjob train.

202 Question for which Obama is the answer: Who thinks going to hell in a handbasket is a good destination? PLease add your own.

203 I don't Obama is a Muslim either. I think he's his own god and his agenda is his religion. Of course, radical islam and Communism have the same enemies so it's all good-for Obama

204 Question for which Obama is the answer:

Why does my butt hurt so bad for $200, Alex.

205

Republicans: We screwed you all

Bless your heart.

206
Be critical of his policy but don't leap off the Birther nutjob train.

Strawman much?

207 I don't Obama is a Muslim either.

It's NOT his fault!  If Mooch was your first wife, how anxious would you be to have more?  hmmmmm . . .

208 210 This is why you teabagging idiots are so shunned by most of the USA. Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper at March 10, 2013 08:33 PM (0CTxy) Charming. Perhaps you could find it in your heart to shun us as well.

209 #159  His charm offensive is fake.  It's like having President Eddie Haskell.

I, playing the roll of Barbara Billingsley, aka Beaver's mother,  call BS on the whole thing.

He will keep it up for about 2 weeks and then revert to type.

210 In case you couldn't figure it out from my nic, I practice emergency medicine. I also happen to work for the DoD (the branch with aircraft carriers.) Since I work in a system that is "socialized", allow me to tell you morons what's in store for you. Long lines to see your primary care, extended waits to be referred to specialists, and lots of bureaucratic runaround. In the event of an actual medical emergency, you'll wait many hours to be seen in the emergency department because of people suffering from "acute exacerbation of chronic entitlement syndrome" who couldn't suffer through their self-limiting vomiting and diarrhea at home. Enjoy!

211 Just to provide a glimpse about my frustration about acting before understanding --



The problems with health care can be understood.  A good place to start (like just about every one of our problems that government gets involved with) is the first 5 assumptions of the Law of Supply and Demand --  Scarcity, Rationality, Multiple Wants, Substitutability, and Law of Diminishing Returns (or diminishing marginal valuation DMV -- your choice -- I prefer LDR)


Obamacare does not address scarcity -- in fact it will make it worse.


It sure as hell is not rational.


The interaction between Multiple Wants and Substitutability was, and is still, the major problem to be addressed.  However, since there was no willingness to understand the problem before acting these two issues remain the reason why the whole approach is completely fucked up and won't solve one damned thing.


Once this abomination gets rolling we will see LDR in action is a huge way, and it won't be pretty.


It is never too much for us to ask for the theoretical basis for the great solution that any politician from any party decides to force upon us.  If they can't explain it in terms of the Law of S/D they simply are not the people that should be assigned the job.  (Many problems will go beyond the Law of S/D -- I am just noting that  problem solving on a national scale should always include this step, and we should demand it every time.  Otherwise, we have no realistic way to judge the proposal or even the basic competency of the person who claims to have some grand solution.)


If they insist on forcing the solution upon us without being able to address their theory in a realistic (as determined by the universe, not humans) way, then tar and feathers are the minimum that should occur.

212 Question for which Obama is the answer: Who couldn't stand on his feet for two hours-much less 12-without a teleprompter or notes and talk about anything other than his own greatness?

213 President Eddie Haskell. LOL.

214 Perhaps you could find it in your heart to shun us as well.

Posted by: Mindy the wacko-bird at March 10, 2013 08:37 PM (wk9P4)

{{{{{Mindy}}}})  you rock, girl!

215 "acute exacerbation of chronic entitlement syndrome"

That is a certified AoS Classic, right there, doc! 

216 I don't think Obama has any interest in wives, actually.

217 210 Hubert Shitenslurper,

Hey Hubert you want to go over this I'm game...do understand if you are seriously saying Choom is a Xian we need to have a long talk about Jerry Wright and Pfleger bud...

Jerry Wright would be under persecution and properly so if he were white saying the same shit in reverse...

Ogabe is such a good Xian he swears he never heard any of Jerry's racist bullshit over 20 years...

Hal E Lou Yeah baby

218 181Heaven Know's Mr.Allison on right now on TCM.

Posted by: steevy at March 10, 2013 08:04 PM (9XBK2)

 

that's a great movie... i'm there.

 

219 Back to insurance.  I am going to repeat a story I have told here a couple of times.

My husband went to work in Africa for an American mining company.  We had insurance through that company,  which was nice after paying Blue Cross for a high-deductible policy while he was a consultant.

After he had been over there for 6 months,  he was recruited by a South African firm.  I told him it was ok to switch jobs,  as long as there was medical insurance.  They said no problem,  so he took the new job.

The insurance was through a British firm which carried ex-pat insurance.  We had to send all bils to them and they would reimburse.  After about 4 months, we were notified by the insurer that they would no longer carry anyone in the US. (This was right after Obamacare passed.)  N problem,  they said.  We will insure your wife through one of our US offices. 

Only I didn't live in Colorado or Massachusetts,  and my husband didn't work out of their US offices.  Bzzzzz! No dice,  because health insurance cannot cross state lines (which would have been another reform that would have helped which did NOT get included in the bill).

So they told me to get an individual policy and they would pay for it.  HA!

NO insurer would take me because I have high blood pressure (wonder why) INCLUDING Blue Cross,  which I had been insured with a year earlier!  Nope.  I was told I could apply to the State of Indiana for their "uninsurable" people and it would cost me $800 per month. 

The agent finally admitted that the insurers were not taking anyone who even had a hangnail because they knew in 2014 they would have to take everyone. 

So I have had no insurance since around the time Obamacare passed.  My husband is insured,  but I am not.  I got a discount on my BP meds because I pay cash,  and I pay cash to my doctor.

I go on Medicare in September,  so I have made it through this mess with no appreciable problems,  except the cost of meds.  No big deal, as I can afford $255/month.

I am sure there are people who got caught in this in worse shape,  so I consider myself lucky.

Obamacare is a total fraud.

220 Obama as Eddie Haskell in the Sequester debate; http://tinyurl.com/avn3wqa

221 224"acute exacerbation of chronic entitlement syndrome"

That is a certified AoS Classic, right there, doc!

Posted by: Peaches at March 10, 2013 08:43 PM (AJM+z)

 

seconded...

222 health insurance cannot cross state lines (which would have been another reform that would have helped which did NOT get included in the bill).

THAT!!!!  A huge part of the problem.  And I am very sorry for your troubles, Miss Marple. 

223 Yes, it is a total fraud. Miss Marple and anyone who wasn't an Obamabot knew that. Of course the people who passed this bs are mostly Obamabots.

224 Oh, health insurance DOES cross state lines.  My insurer, Kaiser, is a Cali company and I live in Georgia.

Sven boy - Obama is the biggest Muslim killer alive.  He may not be a Cristo-Freak but he is certainly no towel-head.

225 Notice that trolls generally come in here, take a huge dump then leave.

226 #233  Herbert,  you are either a liar or your company has a branch office in California.

227 234 Notice that trolls generally come in here, take a huge dump then leave.

Posted by: katya the designated driver at March 10, 2013 08:56 PM (DoZD+)

===

What would you prefer?   There is nothing to be gained by trying to reason with tired children, drunks, damned fools, or the mentally ill.  A few of them appear to be in all four groups.

228 Obama's not a Christo freak-He's a "Crisco freak-Slimy, full of lard (bs) and leaving a foul nasty taste in one's mouth.

229 No, Miss Marple.  If you were a true conservative you would know that a state has the right to impose insurance regulations on insurers.

States rights!

Kaiser sells me insurance and Georgia regulates it. 

230 But I can't really taken anyone with the name "Herman Hymenhopper" with any degree of credibility. maybe he's another Mary Cloggenstein-only not nearly as talented. Adios

231 #238  Go to hell.  I tell what happened to me,  what the laws are in Indiana,  and I do not lie.

May your premiums go up,  may you end up in the long clinic lines,  and may you be told to go home and take a pill instead of getting a hip replacement.

232 His approval rate is not as 58%; It's at 48% Because of racism! You right wing haters, and southerners hat Obama because he's black! the rest of America loves Obama, Americas first black president elected twice, and you hate him because of for it.

233 Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper at March 10, 2013 09:00 PM (0CTxy)

Most of us here don't qualify under subsection 3766Q, Coverage for the Damned, but thanks for the info.  Not at all surprised that it's Kaiser.

234 Notice that trolls generally come in here, take a huge dump then leave. It's called a 'vowel movement'.

235 First you argued it was at 58%. Then when you were corrected we are told it's due to racism. Poor. poor quality trolls or socks. Adios.

236 ahem....the second one was me, trying to copy his...err...unique style.

237 Miss Marple, I am sorry your onion got scrunched up a bit.  I did not reply to your long tome of #228 but rather to your short outburst of #235.

238 My wife's health insurance went up a whopping 65% this year over last year's policy!  She just turned 64, in good heatlth, but we live in NJ...not too many choices with insurance companies. Average increase each year was around 15% up until now. Was 747 a month, now, 1169.00 And that's just for her!

239 Posted by: thatcrazyjerseyguy at March 10, 2013 09:26 PM (bnM03)

New York/New Jersey Moron meetup list.

nynjmeet at optimum dot net

Send an opt-in e-mail if you are interested in joining us (and getting a ticket for the raffle for a fresh hobo pelt).

240 247 My wife's health insurance went up a whopping 65% this year over last year's policy! She just turned 64, in good heatlth, but we live in NJ...not too many choices with insurance companies. Average increase each year was around 15% up until now. Was 747 a month, now, 1169.00 And that's just for her!

Posted by: thatcrazyjerseyguy at March 10, 2013 09:26 PM (bnM03)

====

this may be the part that frustrates me the most --- we have a real problem, and I believe addressing the problem would make a lot of sense.

However, instead of learning about the problem, understanding it, modeling it and testing the model, and then acting -- we get a bullshit wild guess shoved down our throats on a permanent until it collapses basis.

Tar/feathers is too good for them.

241 Mom got a letter from her doc saying if she wanted to continue seeing him, she needed to pay $1600 and change to be put on a list, first come, first served. Kind of upset both of us, but not a shock given Obamacare.

242 So glad that I don't have 5-6 chronic, sometimes deadly illnesses. Just kidding I do! I have assumed I will die in my 50s, (I nearly 49), but at least if Obamacare kills me, I will have the pleasure of knowing it will screw a lot of the people who voted for him too. Like the idiot Donna Brazille... That's got to mean something.

243

OT, but just out of curiousity. A friend claims her husband, who is a GP, makes $750K per year. That's supposedly the W-2 income, not the office gross. 1 guy, with a busy practice. She says he sees 50 patients a day.

 

Anyone know anything about medical  practice economics who can comment on whether that is viable or not? Seemed wildly inflated to me, just searching those sites that have average salaries for various professions.

244

Posted by: RM at March 10, 2013 11:54 PM (ixDYs)

50patients/day let's say 250 working days in a year is about 12500 patients by my math.

If you can squeeze $60/patient out of them I suppose it's feasible.

Certainly high end of the scale though.

Also consider that even in a 10 hour day, that's 5 patients every hour (12 min/patient assuming no breaks.)

245 Thanks a million for the "lay-of-the-land" tmi3rd. I suspected there was a way to get iportant care as I age (nearing 50) and I'll be damned before I submit to the gubmint. Best of luck in your studies neighbor.