April 26, 2014
A Good Example of Why We Need To Understand The Left' Arguments [CBD]
— Open Blogger "Can, say, a Republican write a defense of the minimum wage that a reader of the Daily Kos would accept, or will it just come out sounding like a straw man? "
— Open Blogger "Can, say, a Republican write a defense of the minimum wage that a reader of the Daily Kos would accept, or will it just come out sounding like a straw man? "
There is a substantial power imbalance between minimum wage workers and employers, such that employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth, and far less than they would be willing to pay if they had to. The minimum wage corrects this power imbalance and prevents employers from unfairly exploiting this power imbalance. It forces employers to pay employees something closer to a living wage, though at $7.25 an hour the minimum wage is still too low to be humane and needs to be raised. When companies pay below a living wage, they not only exploit workers but taxpayers as well, since they are accepting a form of corporate welfare when taxpayers (through food stamps and Medicare and the like) help sustain their underpaid workers.Opponents of the minimum wage will sometimes argue that higher minimum wages reduce employment. However, since in most cases employers of low-skilled workers are paying workers less than they are willing and able to pay, raising the minimum wage has little effect on employment. Studies of the fast food industry by Card and Walker demonstrated that raising the minimum wage had little effect on employment levels. And any loss of employment from higher minimum wages would be more than offset by the Keynesian stimulative effect to the economy as a whole of increasing wages among lower income workers, who tend to consume nearly 100% of incremental income.
Read the rest of the post from Coyote Blog.....
Too often we just call them "commies" and mock their arguments. But it pays to understand the philosophical and economic underpinnings of their world view.
Posted by: Open Blogger at
09:07 AM
| Comments (246)
Post contains 327 words, total size 2 kb.
3
Had this argument with my MiL (socialist+++) and gave her the example of walking into a McDonalds, BK, Wendy's, Bojangles, Chick Fil A, or other fast food place and ordering from an iPad instead of a cashier and the burgers/fries/drinks etc were made by automated machines so that you only saw 3-4 people working there instead of 15.
You push the cost of labor so high, they'll be replaced by machines. So yes, you'll help out those 3-4 people who make more, but at a cost of 11-12 jobs.
Don't know if I convinced her, but at least she started thinking more deeply than "those evil companies should pay people more!"
Posted by: Memories at April 26, 2014 09:15 AM (XqvcE)
4
There is no 'power imbalance.' If employer is not willing to pay worker what he wants, worker can go elsewhere.
Posted by: Mole6 at April 26, 2014 09:15 AM (m0le6)
5
1 I understand all of his philosophical arguments.
They're all wrong.
Fin
Posted by: Sean Bannion at April 26, 2014 01:10 PM (yz6yg)
Exactly. Done.
The left appeals to emotion. Math destroys emotion. When there is no more Free Market to suck dry. Math wins.
Done.
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at April 26, 2014 09:16 AM (5W3xu)
6
Oh, and those two quoted paragraphs are twaddle.
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at April 26, 2014 09:18 AM (5W3xu)
7
Your worth what it would cost to replace you. It's that simple.
Posted by: Reality Man at April 26, 2014 09:19 AM (Cs9Ps)
8
There is a substantial power imbalance between minimum wage workers and employers, such that employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth
Labor Theory of Value. Marxism, straight up.
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 09:19 AM (QupBk)
9
Oh, and those two quoted paragraphs are twaddle.
---
That's intentional. He's trying to write in the style of DailyKos.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 09:19 AM (ZPrif)
10
You Are I mean...
You are worth what it would cost to replace you.
Posted by: Reality Man at April 26, 2014 09:19 AM (Cs9Ps)
11
I think the point about employers not paying market value for work is patently false, but when they start talking about "living wage" we are no longer talking about facts. We're into the realm of emotion, and there is no argument to be had anymore.
I think one of the stronger arguments for THEIR side is that minimum wage jobs are NOT all done by teenagers in the fast food industry.
If they would start with that point, they might win more arguments. I'm not saying they SHOULD win more arguments, just that they would.
I think one of the stronger arguments for THEIR side is that minimum wage jobs are NOT all done by teenagers in the fast food industry.
If they would start with that point, they might win more arguments. I'm not saying they SHOULD win more arguments, just that they would.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 09:20 AM (BeSEI)
12
Maybe I got this wrong, but I was led to believe that min wage was what you were paid while your employer was deciding whether or not to keep you around.
Receiving a high minimum wage posits to me that the employee is expected to be content working at that position for the rest of whatever, and is comfortable with existing at the level min wage provides.
Am I in error here?
Maybe I got this wrong, but I was led to believe that min wage was what you were paid while your employer was deciding whether or not to keep you around.
Receiving a high minimum wage posits to me that the employee is expected to be content working at that position for the rest of whatever, and is comfortable with existing at the level min wage provides.
Am I in error here?
Posted by: irongrampa at April 26, 2014 09:20 AM (SAMxH)
13
If Democrats and progressives believe that wages are too low, why do they insist on shoving as many low-skilled workers who are willing to work for those too-low wages into the country as possible--most by illegal means?
Posted by: JoeyBagels at April 26, 2014 09:21 AM (FAcuz)
14
I do not care to convince, I only want to defeat. I do not need to "understand" these enemies of liberty - they are required to be conversant with the Founding Principles of our country - and they are not. They are self-declared Enemies and they only deserve defeat and banishment.
They are slavers and tyrants - the only thing they NEED to understand is the sound of a prison door closing on them forever.
Posted by: Inspector Cussword at April 26, 2014 09:21 AM (Qp0nB)
15
I am willing to be lectured about minimum wage issues ONLY by someone who has actually, for years, run a small business with minimum wage workers.
Other than those with that experience, kindly fuck off.
I always come back to George McGovern. A guy who actually stood for the Presidency with essentially zero real-world business experience. And who then in later years ended up out of politics, out of the public eye, and managing a small hotel to make a living. With, you can be sure, minimum wage workers on staff.
McGovern said ruefully that he had learned a whole hell of a lot about how the real world works from that experience, and he would have had very different political views and positions if he had spent a few years managing that hotel before entering politics.
In particular, he learned about how business owners bust their butts to provide good services to the general public, at a price that affords them a reasonable profit. And then get hassled with needless regulations, stuck up at gunpoint for taxes, and rhetorically demonized as the source of all ills in society.
Perhaps we should make it a general rule that all candidates should have had similar years of experience.
Oh, by the way, the longest spell of private sector employment in his entire life, by the current President of the USA, that was not at a law firm was... working behind the ice cream counter at Baskin-Robbins as a teenager.
Res ipsa loquitur.
Other than those with that experience, kindly fuck off.
I always come back to George McGovern. A guy who actually stood for the Presidency with essentially zero real-world business experience. And who then in later years ended up out of politics, out of the public eye, and managing a small hotel to make a living. With, you can be sure, minimum wage workers on staff.
McGovern said ruefully that he had learned a whole hell of a lot about how the real world works from that experience, and he would have had very different political views and positions if he had spent a few years managing that hotel before entering politics.
In particular, he learned about how business owners bust their butts to provide good services to the general public, at a price that affords them a reasonable profit. And then get hassled with needless regulations, stuck up at gunpoint for taxes, and rhetorically demonized as the source of all ills in society.
Perhaps we should make it a general rule that all candidates should have had similar years of experience.
Oh, by the way, the longest spell of private sector employment in his entire life, by the current President of the USA, that was not at a law firm was... working behind the ice cream counter at Baskin-Robbins as a teenager.
Res ipsa loquitur.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 26, 2014 09:22 AM (noWW6)
16
But it pays to understand the philosophical and economic underpinnings of their world view.
Their views are nonsensical. Beyond that, I'm not sure what there is to understand. I mean, I understand the caste system, where your worth is based on your bloodline, but so what? Do I actually have to ponder all the ramifications of that worldview? Same thing.
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 09:22 AM (QupBk)
17
Also - if it's so easy to run a business and pay people more than what they are worth (or more than what those evil "other" businesses pay them)... then by all means, go start a business and run it paying people $20+ an hour to sweep the floors.
Great thing about America is you can do whatever you want. If your theory is right - you can make a difference of everyone involved. I'll applaud you as a model citizen... and better yet - if your swimming in cash - others will surely follow suit.
It's simple - if it's so easy, go do it with your own money.
Same thing with these people that talk about how a CEO is overpaid... well hell - go be a CEO then, it's such an easy job. If you can't be a CEO of an existing company, start your own - after all... it's probably really really easy.
Posted by: Reality Man at April 26, 2014 09:22 AM (Cs9Ps)
18
To quote myself: a free person does not *expect* anyone--an individual or a groups of individuals (a corporation) to provide him/her with a job. It's nice, but it's not *expected.* A free person creates his/her own job.
Posted by: baldilocks at April 26, 2014 09:23 AM (36Rjy)
19
He's playing off the Turing Test idea -- can you write enough like a liberal to convince a liberal that you are one of them.
His point was that the Right would pass these ideological Turing Tests far more often than the Left would.
This is a point Ace and Jonah Goldberg have made many times. We are familiar with their arguments. They are totally unfamiliar with ours.
So you get leftists totally unfamiliar with arguments against the minimum wage, other than ... rich people hate poor people, especially poor people with darker skin.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 09:24 AM (ZPrif)
20
This is a little bizarre, because we talk about almost nothing but what the left is doing, but the left talks about almost nothing but a caricature of us (war on women, racist tea party, etc).
It may be anecdotal, but it's a very strongly supported anecdote that the right can generally explain the ideas of the left, but the left has little idea of that *actual* ideas of the right.
Obviously this is not a 100% thing, but IIRC there was a large study (possibly slightly more valid than microwaving mice swimming in milk) showing that the left understands the right far less than the right understands the left. Jonathan Haidt, I think.
Part of this is because historically the left calls anything they oppose "right," and thus to them the word almost means "things we oppose."
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 26, 2014 09:25 AM (qyfb5)
21
15 -
Really? I did not know that about McGovern. That is interesting.
I know he never would have tolerated the open contempt for the military and how it is used by current Democrats... McGovern was the guy they tried to tell us John Kerry was, and unlike Kerry, McGovern was the real deal.
Really? I did not know that about McGovern. That is interesting.
I know he never would have tolerated the open contempt for the military and how it is used by current Democrats... McGovern was the guy they tried to tell us John Kerry was, and unlike Kerry, McGovern was the real deal.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 09:25 AM (BeSEI)
22
>>Despite the fact that I disagree with this position, I feel I understand it pretty well -- far better, I would say, than most global warming alarmists or even media members bother to try to understand the skeptic position.
It's about power and numbers. Most people would gladly ignore the other side's argument, but those with large numbers of followers and power actually can.
Posted by: Mama AJ at April 26, 2014 09:25 AM (SUKHu)
23
CBD: I've been trying to explain this to "conservatives" and such for years. As you can see from some of the comments here, such results in calls of RINO or liberal or troll, etc etc etc.
The best way to defeat the enemy is to look his position, understand it, understand EXACTLY why your position is more efficient, where the weaknesses are in your position, etc. and then adopt a strategy to deal with the situation. Which is also why freedom, and free societies, work. But don't listen to me, I'm just a RINO.
Posted by: WTP at April 26, 2014 09:26 AM (F26eZ)
25
"If Democrats and progressives believe that wages are too low, why do
they insist on shoving as many low-skilled workers who are willing to
work for those too-low wages into the country as possible--most by
illegal means?"
I honestly think that many of these progtards think this will "help" somehow.
The left never, ever have understood the elementary economic interplay of supply and demand.
When supply goes up faster than demand does, prices fall.
In labor markets, the prices in question are WAGES.
That simple. Yet it might as well be relativistic quantum mechanics insofar as the left being able to comprehend it.
I honestly think that many of these progtards think this will "help" somehow.
The left never, ever have understood the elementary economic interplay of supply and demand.
When supply goes up faster than demand does, prices fall.
In labor markets, the prices in question are WAGES.
That simple. Yet it might as well be relativistic quantum mechanics insofar as the left being able to comprehend it.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 26, 2014 09:27 AM (noWW6)
26
>>"Too often we just call them "commies" and mock their arguments. But it pays to understand the philosophical and economic underpinnings of their world view."
I've never call them "commies." All labels belong to a time and place and are mostly meaningless even in their time and place. For instance, Obama isn't a "Marxist." Was any "Marxist" ever actually a Marxist? He's Barack Obama, a hybrid mix of influences who purposes can be clearly understand through his actions. As for the underpinning of their world view -- it is hardly an "underpinning" but rather emotion and conceit bound together at its higher operations by intellectual glibness and sophistry. It doesn't take much time or effort to undersand it. It doesn't change or grow, but it does find new and often adroit ways of dissimulating itself.
Posted by: rrpjr at April 26, 2014 09:27 AM (s/yC1)
27
The best way to defeat the enemy is to look his position, understand it, understand EXACTLY why your position is more efficient, where the weaknesses are in your position, etc. and then adopt a strategy to deal with the situation.
How do you reason someone out of a position they were not reasoned into?
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 09:28 AM (QupBk)
28
Conservatives understand liberal arguments better than liberals understand ours because we are living in a world largely created by liberals. Conservatives are thus philosophically "bi-lingual." We can speak their language. They can't speak ours.
Posted by: JoeyBagels at April 26, 2014 09:29 AM (FAcuz)
29
9 Oh, and those two quoted paragraphs are twaddle.
---
That's intentional. He's trying to write in the style of DailyKos.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 01:19 PM (ZPrif)
Then it's a damn good job.
I thought it was quoted from the dAilYKoOk.
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at April 26, 2014 09:30 AM (5W3xu)
30
"How do you reason someone out of a position they were not reasoned into?"
Did I say that was the strategy to take? Forget those who will not listen to reason and focus on those who will. Screaming at those who are not capable of reason will not work either. It's like teaching a dog to sing. It won't work and it just annoys the dog.
Posted by: WTP at April 26, 2014 09:30 AM (F26eZ)
31
The Leftist will always find a dumber person to argue with if they're losing. That's the thing about the Internet. There's plenty of living caricatures if you look.
Posted by: Shoot Me at April 26, 2014 09:31 AM (EQcfE)
32
Got this from one of the blogs linked to here--but it is so true. No point even in arguing about this, because the proponents of raising the minimum wage don't want to help anyone (maybe the commenter's socialist mother-in-law who is just a do-gooder dope does, but not those who are proposing the change, like Obama and his cronies. Bottom line: "Every increase they can engineer in the federal minimum wage triggers wage increases in union contracts that are keyed to the federal minimum wage. Which means more money going into the pockets of the labor unions. Which means more money going into the pockets of politicians."
Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 09:32 AM (GVA22)
33
25, true, and I understand why Chamber-of Commerce type Republicans want low-skilled people willing to work for low wages, but liberals undercut their own economic arguments by supporting massive illegal immigration...
Posted by: JoeyBagels at April 26, 2014 09:32 AM (FAcuz)
34
Your employer does not exist to provide you with a livelihood.
A thing (including your labor) is worth only what someone else is willing to pay for it.
If the cost of your labor becomes greater than the worth of your labor to the employer, your job will be going away.
"The philosophical and economic underpinnings of their world view" have no correlation with, and no connection to, reality.
What do you do with an argument like that?
Posted by: Luke at April 26, 2014 09:32 AM (iv/0U)
35
23 -
Why are you concerned about what people call you? The problem with your way is that you DON'T understand the left. You CANNOT have an argument with people who don't operate in the realm of facts, and until you do your way will be ineffective.
It has nothing to do with your RINO status.
You RINO, you.
Why are you concerned about what people call you? The problem with your way is that you DON'T understand the left. You CANNOT have an argument with people who don't operate in the realm of facts, and until you do your way will be ineffective.
It has nothing to do with your RINO status.
You RINO, you.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 09:32 AM (BeSEI)
36
"There is no 'power imbalance.' If employer is not willing to pay worker what he wants, worker can go elsewhere."
This is correct; the power imbalance which is referenced in the quoted article exists, but 1) it's always in favor of the worker and 2) the difference in power is the worker's salary. Putting the thumb of the government on the scales that measure the imbalance (in the form of a mandatory minimum wage) is unfair - TO THE EMPLOYER.
Bill Buckley's formulation was a good one. The minimum wage is either too low to do any good or it's high enough to be harmful. There's no middle ground.
This is correct; the power imbalance which is referenced in the quoted article exists, but 1) it's always in favor of the worker and 2) the difference in power is the worker's salary. Putting the thumb of the government on the scales that measure the imbalance (in the form of a mandatory minimum wage) is unfair - TO THE EMPLOYER.
Bill Buckley's formulation was a good one. The minimum wage is either too low to do any good or it's high enough to be harmful. There's no middle ground.
Posted by: Joe at April 26, 2014 09:33 AM (c1Pl+)
37
Forget those who will not listen to reason and focus on those who will.
If they were reasoning creatures, they wouldn't be leftists, except for those who are simply criminally minded and understand it's all twattle, but personally useful twattle..
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 09:33 AM (QupBk)
39
I found some disposable E-Cigs on clearance. The Menthol is great.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:34 AM (LJ7Ze)
40
Hi Kids, this is OSP, I hope everyone is doing well. I am hosting a radio show this evening and I had a panelist cancel on me. It's the Robert Bertrand show on Blog Talk Radio. We discuss Conservative/Libertarian politics and for most of you it's right in your strike zone. The current panelists are Authors from the CLFA (conservative libertarian fiction alliance) Baldilocks, this would be right up your ally. The time slot is from 9-10 Eastern.
If you are interested you can E-mail me @ AmyLynnBraxton@gmail.com. It's really fun, I promise.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at April 26, 2014 09:35 AM (JFUyc)
41
When they come up with an e-cigarette vape that tastes like Marlboro, I'm in...
Posted by: JoeyBagels at April 26, 2014 09:35 AM (FAcuz)
42
any loss of employment from higher minimum wages would be more than
offset by the Keynesian stimulative effect to the economy as a whole of
increasing wages among lower income workers, who tend to consume nearly
100% of incremental income
Clearly, the answer to an economic downturn is to bring in lots of low-skill subsistence level types who will immediately spend all their money. The economy should be roaring in no time.
Oh, wait, that's what we're doing. Never mind.
Clearly, the answer to an economic downturn is to bring in lots of low-skill subsistence level types who will immediately spend all their money. The economy should be roaring in no time.
Oh, wait, that's what we're doing. Never mind.
Posted by: pep at April 26, 2014 09:35 AM (4nR9/)
43
Mockery in lieu of murder is the best deal the commies are going to get from me.
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 09:35 AM (QupBk)
44
Its useful to understand the dictionary definition of "specious". It is a word that applies to many liberal policy arguments:
"having deceptive attraction or allure; having a false look of truth or genuineness..."
So it is with this one about minimum wage and bargaining power.
Henry Ford did not create the five dollar day out of altruism. He did it in reponse to the bargaining power a vital and growing market gave to his essentially illiterate work force. Henry got tired of turning over his work force every six months; of training his competitors' workers.
A healthy economy reallocates bargaining power far better than the minimum wage.
"having deceptive attraction or allure; having a false look of truth or genuineness..."
So it is with this one about minimum wage and bargaining power.
Henry Ford did not create the five dollar day out of altruism. He did it in reponse to the bargaining power a vital and growing market gave to his essentially illiterate work force. Henry got tired of turning over his work force every six months; of training his competitors' workers.
A healthy economy reallocates bargaining power far better than the minimum wage.
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 09:36 AM (YBusZ)
45
I can't keep these smart cigs lit for shit.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:36 AM (LJ7Ze)
46
I have exposed many a leftbat to Friedman and Sowell....
I understand the left's pap they refuse to acknowledge the veracity of my motive let alone the perspicacity of my observations and hypotheses.
Understanding "I wanna" is easy...explaining that "no there is not necessarily a pony just because you have pony shit" and "there's no such thing as a free lunch" is more complex.
I understand the left's pap they refuse to acknowledge the veracity of my motive let alone the perspicacity of my observations and hypotheses.
Understanding "I wanna" is easy...explaining that "no there is not necessarily a pony just because you have pony shit" and "there's no such thing as a free lunch" is more complex.
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 09:37 AM (TE35l)
47
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at April 26, 2014 01:18 PM (5W3xu)
Exactly. How can hew claim that an increased minimum wage doesn't negatively affect employment when decades of evidence shows that it does?
Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 26, 2014 09:37 AM (GDulk)
48
Leftists never understand the costs of labor in a product. Their argument that a higher minimum wage enables workers to buy moar shit is undercut when the cost of higher labor is passed on to the consumer.
In a short time, they're not able to buy any moar shit than they did at a lower minimum wage.
But Krugtron tells them there's no such thing as inflation, and he's got a Nobel on the mantle in his Princeton mansion
Posted by: kbdabear at April 26, 2014 09:37 AM (aTXUx)
49
"Why are you concerned about what people call you? The problem with your way is that you DON'T understand the left. You CANNOT have an argument with people who don't operate in the realm of facts, and until you do your way will be ineffective.
It has nothing to do with your RINO status.
You RINO, you. "
here did I say I cared what I was called? My point, and you seem interested in making it here (assuming this was not intetionally meant as a joke) is that CBD's point is itself destined to fall on deaf ears unless such problem is itself acknowledged and dealt with.
Posted by: WTP at April 26, 2014 09:37 AM (F26eZ)
50
A healthy economy reallocates bargaining power far better than the minimum wage.
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 01:36 PM (YBusZ)
And that may be the basic lack of understanding in most liberals.
They do not understand that a free market reallocates everything far more efficiently and faster than any government fiat.
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 01:36 PM (YBusZ)
And that may be the basic lack of understanding in most liberals.
They do not understand that a free market reallocates everything far more efficiently and faster than any government fiat.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 26, 2014 09:38 AM (QFxY5)
51
As a side issue, you know what would be good for low-wage workers? Not inflating the living shit out of the currency, that's what.
People often feel trapped in their jobs because job-hunting sucks. The most "successful" people always have a job hunt going on in the background, and that's definitely not a cost-free way of living. I don't blame people who don't do it.
I put successful in quotes because for most people that's not a very satisfying way of living, and success means more than just money.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 26, 2014 09:38 AM (qyfb5)
53
It is the over supply of low skilled labor that is the problem.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:38 AM (LJ7Ze)
54
Why would we *want* to write a defense of the minimum wage? It's historical effects are pretty clearly *in*defensible.
Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 26, 2014 09:39 AM (GDulk)
55
Obama says the U.S. will not hesitate to use the military to defend South Korea. Boy, I'll bet Young Un is pissing his pants now.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 09:39 AM (Mogjf)
56
Hey OSP! Long time and no see.
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 26, 2014 09:41 AM (jucos)
57
It is the over supply of low skilled labor that is the problem.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 01:38 PM (LJ7Ze)
Nope.
Abolish the minimum wage and those folks will find jobs if they want one.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 01:38 PM (LJ7Ze)
Nope.
Abolish the minimum wage and those folks will find jobs if they want one.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 26, 2014 09:41 AM (QFxY5)
58
South Korea isn't one of the 57 states. I am tired of seeing American boys doing a job South Korean boys should be doing.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:41 AM (LJ7Ze)
59
Its useful to understand the dictionary definition of "specious". It is a word that applies to many liberal policy arguments:
"having deceptive attraction or allure; having a false look of truth or genuineness..."
-
I thought it meant that you think humans are better than sewer rats.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 09:42 AM (Mogjf)
60
Spare me the reading.
What do Card and Walker (or Boehner, McCain, Jeb Bush or the WSK Editorial Board, for that matter) have to say is the effect illegal immigration has on the power imbalance between employers and those who lack of skills leave them competing for entry level, low wage jobs?
What do Card and Walker (or Boehner, McCain, Jeb Bush or the WSK Editorial Board, for that matter) have to say is the effect illegal immigration has on the power imbalance between employers and those who lack of skills leave them competing for entry level, low wage jobs?
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 09:42 AM (YBusZ)
61
damn, I was willowed on the other thread
Posted by: navycopjoe at April 26, 2014 09:42 AM (krmE0)
62
1) Posted by: Sean Bannion at April 26, 2014 01:10 PM (yz6yg)
Very much so Mr. Bannion....
for example allow me to illustrate the underlying psychology of why we'll never agree.
There is a substantial power imbalance between minimum wage workers and employers, such that employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth, and far less than they would be willing to pay if they had to. The minimum wage corrects this power imbalance and prevents employers from unfairly exploiting this power imbalance. It forces employers to pay employees something closer to a living wage, though at $7.25 an hour the minimum wage is still too low to be humane and needs to be raised. When companies pay below a living wage, they not only exploit workers but taxpayers as well, since they are accepting a form of corporate welfare when taxpayers (through food stamps and Medicare and the like) help sustain their underpaid workers.
The Bolded parts show that the person is making a theological not economic argument and that the writer does not understand the role of money or what the interaction between employer/employee and market/rpice dynamics are AT ALL.
I am not engaged in a spiritual transaction when I discuss economics I am engaged in a psychological one wedded to math.
The employer hires the employee to aid them in providing a good and or service to the buying public at pricepoint x.
The leftbat seems to think that the employer is simply being greedy in not giving the fry cook a Brain Surgeon's wage....
are you ready for 14.99 whoppers?
Very much so Mr. Bannion....
for example allow me to illustrate the underlying psychology of why we'll never agree.
There is a substantial power imbalance between minimum wage workers and employers, such that employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth, and far less than they would be willing to pay if they had to. The minimum wage corrects this power imbalance and prevents employers from unfairly exploiting this power imbalance. It forces employers to pay employees something closer to a living wage, though at $7.25 an hour the minimum wage is still too low to be humane and needs to be raised. When companies pay below a living wage, they not only exploit workers but taxpayers as well, since they are accepting a form of corporate welfare when taxpayers (through food stamps and Medicare and the like) help sustain their underpaid workers.
The Bolded parts show that the person is making a theological not economic argument and that the writer does not understand the role of money or what the interaction between employer/employee and market/rpice dynamics are AT ALL.
I am not engaged in a spiritual transaction when I discuss economics I am engaged in a psychological one wedded to math.
The employer hires the employee to aid them in providing a good and or service to the buying public at pricepoint x.
The leftbat seems to think that the employer is simply being greedy in not giving the fry cook a Brain Surgeon's wage....
are you ready for 14.99 whoppers?
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 09:42 AM (TE35l)
63
Unfortunately most Republicans can (and do) defend the minimum wage because they are almost as economically illiterate as Democrats.
Posted by: Dennis at April 26, 2014 09:42 AM (+ZGn6)
64
57 Uncle Tom Economics doesn't work. One of the legs of the stool is too long. Deport and strip Mexicans of the Citizenship until we have 0% unemployment.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:43 AM (LJ7Ze)
65
"having deceptive attraction or allure; having a false look of truth or genuineness..."
Describes anything I have ever heard from the leftist Pied Pipers.
50 A healthy economy reallocates bargaining power far better than the minimum wage.
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 01:36 PM (YBusZ)
+ eLeBiNty!!!111!!
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at April 26, 2014 09:44 AM (5W3xu)
66
Next deport everyone with dual citizenship.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:45 AM (LJ7Ze)
67
49 -
It's possible I'm misunderstanding your point.
And yes, I'm just ribbing you about the RINO stuff.
I think CBD is saying it's necessary to understand their perspective, and that's true enough. Winning the actual arguments though, it's going to take something else than going toe to toe with them point by point, because THAT approach has been tried over and over and over by the right, and it's not working.
It's possible I'm misunderstanding your point.
And yes, I'm just ribbing you about the RINO stuff.
I think CBD is saying it's necessary to understand their perspective, and that's true enough. Winning the actual arguments though, it's going to take something else than going toe to toe with them point by point, because THAT approach has been tried over and over and over by the right, and it's not working.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 09:45 AM (BeSEI)
68
59. I thought [the word "specious"] meant that you think humans are better than sewer rats.
***
Now you know better. We come here to learn, right?
***
Now you know better. We come here to learn, right?
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 09:45 AM (YBusZ)
69
Australian value meals are about $3 more than ours.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:46 AM (LJ7Ze)
70
Last week on the show I had a couple of small business owners and we were taking about the struggles of businessmen. They both had the same problem. They can't can't find employees. One needed an ad sales person for his Newspaper in Albany Georgia, a 50-100K a year job depending on the employees motivation, the other was looking for concrete truck drivers, $18 an hour and willing to train and pay for their CDL. There are good jobs, but no workers motivated enough to train or that can pass PeePee tests. Minimum wage don't much matter when that's the situation.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at April 26, 2014 09:46 AM (JFUyc)
71
Let me fisk this:
employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth,
That's impossible. If they were able to do so, the workers would simply quit. They often do, turnover is huge in retail and fast food.
The minimum wage corrects this power imbalance and prevents employers from unfairly exploiting this power imbalance.
It does not. It makes it worse. It makes it more desirable to hire a 16-year-old white kid whose parents will drive him to his part-time job 3 days a week than a 25-year-old black guy who has had a spotty employment history and wants to get his life on track. Who's going to pay $10/hour for somebody who might flame out spectacularly? Moreover, who might sue you afterwards.
When companies pay below a living wage, they not only exploit workers but taxpayers as well, since they are accepting a form of corporate welfare when taxpayers (through food stamps and Medicare and the like) help sustain their underpaid workers.
Yeah, about that...First, the minimum wage will just ensure that @ChadTouchscreen will be fully employed and fewer people will seek out fast food and brick-and-mortar retail. Second, employers are competing against the ever more desirable welfare programs.
Opponents of the minimum wage will sometimes argue that higher minimum wages reduce employment.
This is economics 001. The reason why you set a minimum price on cigarettes (or, alternatively, have a high tax) is to ensure the price is too high to make it a desirable purchase.
This isn't economics, this is duh-economics. Some of economics challenges your preconceived notions about how the world works, but most of it is just "Duh!". Now maybe if you're stupid you think, "Me paid to little. Guvmint force boss pay me more. Then me be rich!" this is a revelation, but it doesn't take much thought to realize it's a fallacy.
And that you'll be replaced by machinery...which has been happening since the Industrial Revolution.
However, since in most cases employers of low-skilled workers are paying workers less than they are willing and able to pay, raising the minimum wage has little effect on employment.
Where would the money they are "willing and able to pay" come from? Even though the employer (in this case, say a fast food franchisee) typically makes a lot of money, it's not that much. If you can't make up for it in the slim profit margin. Either prices rise to the consumer or costs are cut or they go out of business.
Fast food is a luxury. You can always not eat fast food.
Studies of the fast food industry by Card and Walker demonstrated that raising the minimum wage had little effect on employment levels.
A couple of things. I could go into this study, but it makes no sense. First, raising the minimum wage when the prevailing wage is higher has no net effect, so you have to take that into account. Second, it may be that each fast food place has the same amount of people, but fast food is about being inexpensive. If the price is too high, people will seek out other routes. Check in the grocery aisles for the pre-packaged-microwave-and-eat lunches that don't even need to be frozen. Third, what about retail? Automatic checkout? Aldi's?
I actually found this on a Google search on a lib's website trying to use it to debunk the notion that a rise in the minimum wage doesn't cause a rise in unemployment:
http://tinyurl.com/mqoekxo
If you see a spike in the minimum wage, you see a spike in 16-25 unemployment, either right away or shortly thereafter. It's freaky.
And any loss of employment from higher minimum wages would be more than offset by the Keynesian stimulative effect
Keynes was a dufus, a failed mathematician and his theories have been epic failures. The only thing considered a Keynesian success was the spending in WWII. In fact, it was the war and the cessation of the New Deal policies that got us out of the Depression.
Ask the Japanese about Keynes.
Look, I understand geometric series (honestly, people are impressed by Keynes because they don't understand basic math) but the "stimulative effect" is well overblown, especially when the market gets so distorted.
Also, the main effect won't be Keynesian stimulus, it'll be the "wage price spiral" leading to inflation.
The problem with these "arguments" is that none of them is rooted in any economics beyond Krugmanian fantasy. I'd take the moral arguments somewhat seriously (although forcing people at the point of a government gun to do what they don't want to do isn't moral in my book) but the "economics" behind this line of reasoning is that of a child who understands nothing beyond his weekly allowance.
Posted by: AmishDude at April 26, 2014 09:46 AM (1UzRc)
72
" I put successful in quotes because for most people that's not a very satisfying way of living, and success means more than just money..." All true, but more money means more and better pussy. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I've always believed that most men don't care about money in and of itself so long as they can use it to get laid, and eventually- if it comes to that--provide for their families.
Posted by: JoeyBagels at April 26, 2014 09:47 AM (FAcuz)
73
With so many Generation Juiceboxers graduating college and finding no promised 6 figure middle management starting positions and working as baristas, I'm not surprised that the "living wage" cry is gaining traction
The Special Snowflakes are in debt, and they try so hard to get to work on time. They have a RIGHT to lots more money in their minds
Posted by: kbdabear at April 26, 2014 09:48 AM (aTXUx)
74
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 09:48 AM (QupBk)
75
Still say that min wage is the STARTING point--nothing more.
How is that so difficult to understand?
Still say that min wage is the STARTING point--nothing more.
How is that so difficult to understand?
Posted by: irongrampa at April 26, 2014 09:48 AM (SAMxH)
76
Winning the actual arguments though, it's going to take something else than going toe to toe with them point by point, because THAT approach has been tried over and over and over by the right, and it's not working.
-
It doesn't work because they won't engage in good faith. The beginning and the end of their argument is that they more better and more smarter than us.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 09:49 AM (Mogjf)
77
If foodstamps stimulate the economy why not let everyone have them?
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:49 AM (LJ7Ze)
78
WTP - the point is, we already do this. This is preaching to the choir.
The problem is that even if we convince *a* liberal that we (personally) don't match their stereotype, we become an exception in their mind. No matter how many times it happens, it's always an exception, they go back to HuffPo or MSNBC or NPR and get their Daily Stereotype Reinforcement.
Unfortunately, while their policies are disastrous for the world as a whole, the left's policies are terrific as far as game theory and winning adherents - that's why the far left is so popular among what might be called "peasants," whom the left has been slaughtering as a hobby since the 1700s.
Also, a large part of the argument is disingenuous - thus the dancing around things like the labor theory of value and false consciousness instead of just stating them.
You can't actually argue with someone who is denying their own reasoning in the process - it's not even possible, because you're disallowed (by them) from addressing their reasoning. They deny their reasoning is their reasoning, they claim their reasoning is different, and then give another oblique far-left rephrase you're also not allowed to address.
It is literally kookoobananas.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 26, 2014 09:50 AM (qyfb5)
79
"Winning the actual arguments though, it's going to take something else than going toe to toe with them point by point, because THAT approach has been tried over and over and over by the right, and it's not working. "
I agree. But, and I think this is the point toby is missing as well, there is a need to take the long view, open up new markets, so to speak, to appeal to the reason of the observers of the battle, not the actual opponent. Chances of changing his/her mind are slim, but chances of changing the minds of the far greater number of those who are not actively engaged is much, much greater.
Posted by: WTP at April 26, 2014 09:50 AM (V40IZ)
81
"Can, say, a Republican write a defense of the minimum wage that a reader of the Daily Kos would accept, or will it just come out sounding like a straw man? "
========
With all due respect, eff that. I demand that Democrats write a defense, that an AOSHQ moron would accept, why gas prices and meat prices are skyrocketing, and wages for working people are stagnant, why too many working people are forced to take two, or sometimes three part-time jobs to make ends meet, and why American citizens are racists if they oppose amnesty.
I figure after eight years of Obama vacations, Obama golf, and Krugtron sinecures, some sentient Leftwingers might come to their senses and have a come-to-Patrick Moynihan moment. I'm not holding my breath.
========
With all due respect, eff that. I demand that Democrats write a defense, that an AOSHQ moron would accept, why gas prices and meat prices are skyrocketing, and wages for working people are stagnant, why too many working people are forced to take two, or sometimes three part-time jobs to make ends meet, and why American citizens are racists if they oppose amnesty.
I figure after eight years of Obama vacations, Obama golf, and Krugtron sinecures, some sentient Leftwingers might come to their senses and have a come-to-Patrick Moynihan moment. I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: mrp at April 26, 2014 09:50 AM (JBggj)
82
75 Posted by: irongrampa at April 26, 2014 01:48 PM (SAMxH)
There are a lot of people and jobs that need doing that cannot be done at minimum wage IG.
The entire concept is an exercise in perpetual motion reasoning.
We'd have less stagflation and far more growth and innovation if the Feds would get their foot off the economy's throat in the form of Hyper-Regulatory fiat and defacto taxes and freeze-outs WRT labor.
There are a lot of people and jobs that need doing that cannot be done at minimum wage IG.
The entire concept is an exercise in perpetual motion reasoning.
We'd have less stagflation and far more growth and innovation if the Feds would get their foot off the economy's throat in the form of Hyper-Regulatory fiat and defacto taxes and freeze-outs WRT labor.
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 09:50 AM (TE35l)
83
76 -
Agreed.
Honestly, in our current political/cultural climate, I don't believe there is a solution, which is what gives rise to the LIB stuff.
Agreed.
Honestly, in our current political/cultural climate, I don't believe there is a solution, which is what gives rise to the LIB stuff.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 09:51 AM (BeSEI)
84
going toe to toe with them point by point
"But what about BooOOOoooOOOoooSHHHHCheneyHalliburton!!!!11!1"
I honestly can't get past that with ANY leftist. You try to make a point , they see the inevitability of your argument defeating theirs and like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, they will point to something distracting out the window and run away or accuse you of wanting to kill endangered species.
Leftists are just permanent children. They want to be told what to do, what to say and what to think.
LIB
"But what about BooOOOoooOOOoooSHHHHCheneyHalliburton!!!!11!1"
I honestly can't get past that with ANY leftist. You try to make a point , they see the inevitability of your argument defeating theirs and like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, they will point to something distracting out the window and run away or accuse you of wanting to kill endangered species.
Leftists are just permanent children. They want to be told what to do, what to say and what to think.
LIB
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at April 26, 2014 09:51 AM (5ikDv)
85
Ok. Six years of Barry. Feels more like a hundred.
Posted by: mrp at April 26, 2014 09:51 AM (JBggj)
87
77 Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 01:49 PM (LJ7Ze)
Yup...
one night back in '12 I think I wrote a story of "Keynesians at the Swimming Pool"
I'll see if I can dig it up
Yup...
one night back in '12 I think I wrote a story of "Keynesians at the Swimming Pool"
I'll see if I can dig it up
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 09:52 AM (TE35l)
88
"This is preaching to the choir. "
Note, the choir exists on both sides and is irrelevant. Understanding how the opposing side appeals to LIV's and the society as a whole is much more important.
Posted by: WTP at April 26, 2014 09:53 AM (V40IZ)
89
Serious question - how would better understanding the lefty argument improve the current situation?
Most conservatives and libertarians already have a pretty good understanding of lefty 'reasoning'. I've tried explaining the conservative point of view to lefties, but they don't want to know. They're not interested in a rational argument. It's all emotion to them. They're convinced they're on the moral high ground, and refuting their arguments isn't going to change anything.
Posted by: biancaneve at April 26, 2014 09:53 AM (2sR50)
90
one night back in '12 I think I wrote a story of "Keynesians at the Swimming Pool"
*****
That might explain the "Baby Ruth" bar floating in the shallow end.
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 09:53 AM (MKpBT)
91
87 Is that anything like Eric Cartman's Minorities at the water park?
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:53 AM (LJ7Ze)
92
in one of his later books ("New Introductory Lectures" from 1931, I think), Freud asked in so many words "How do we answer our critics?" His answer was "We don't because we know we are correct."
Given the Freudian nature of many left wing attitudes, eg, 'you can deny it all you want but you are a racist if you oppose Obama's policies', it is no surprise that most leftists are unfamiliar with free market economics, etc.
We on the other hand have people like von Mises and Hayek and M Friedman and Sowell, who always knew it was important to know and be able to take apart the left wing's theories and philosophy.
This is why the other side prefers to not have open debate.
Posted by: mallfly at April 26, 2014 09:54 AM (bJm7W)
93
There is this book I've been reading, very interesting. Imperialism the Highest Stage of Captialism. V I Lenin, Mom thought he was wonderful. I recommend it, it has such deep thoughts applicable to our times.
Posted by: Valerie J at April 26, 2014 09:54 AM (vTrNt)
95
http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=332642#c19269012
there's a blast from the past....
~ 900,000 posts of nonsense
My favorite bit-
Keynes then breaks out money machine and pays kids from across the county to come in and attempt to dig canal from ocean 300 miles inland to pool area as a "industrial development zone. Canal works but water is salt water clogs filtration system Keynes runs over budget hiring pump repair guy. Loses six months but gains a wonderful multiplier for the unbuilt machine shop the next door neighbor dreams of one day building.
there's a blast from the past....
~ 900,000 posts of nonsense
My favorite bit-
Keynes then breaks out money machine and pays kids from across the county to come in and attempt to dig canal from ocean 300 miles inland to pool area as a "industrial development zone. Canal works but water is salt water clogs filtration system Keynes runs over budget hiring pump repair guy. Loses six months but gains a wonderful multiplier for the unbuilt machine shop the next door neighbor dreams of one day building.
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 09:55 AM (TE35l)
96
Winning the actual arguments though, it's going
to take something else than going toe to toe with them point by point,
because THAT approach has been tried over and over and over by the
right, and it's not working.
So we should try a little prevarication and jiu-jitsu? I voted in my primary today. The likely winner is Barbara Comstock, heir apparent to Frank Wolf. She may be as conservative as we can get in NoVa now. She was running against 4 others, who appear to be more conservative, but some of whom are just plain loons.
I have been unable to find anything about her position on amnesty, other than "supports secure borders". Well, good for you Barbara. You know, if you really meant "no amnesty", it would be pretty easy to say so, including a definition of amnesty, so that we would know you weren't playing Paul Ryan/Marco Rubio/John Boehner word games.
I even asked some of her supporters and even her campaign manager outside one of the two polling places. It was like I'd asked Sgt. Schultz. Nobody knew anything.
I voted for someone else.
So we should try a little prevarication and jiu-jitsu? I voted in my primary today. The likely winner is Barbara Comstock, heir apparent to Frank Wolf. She may be as conservative as we can get in NoVa now. She was running against 4 others, who appear to be more conservative, but some of whom are just plain loons.
I have been unable to find anything about her position on amnesty, other than "supports secure borders". Well, good for you Barbara. You know, if you really meant "no amnesty", it would be pretty easy to say so, including a definition of amnesty, so that we would know you weren't playing Paul Ryan/Marco Rubio/John Boehner word games.
I even asked some of her supporters and even her campaign manager outside one of the two polling places. It was like I'd asked Sgt. Schultz. Nobody knew anything.
I voted for someone else.
Posted by: pep at April 26, 2014 09:55 AM (4nR9/)
98
I would try E-cigs but I am afraid of getting E-cancer.
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 26, 2014 09:56 AM (jucos)
99
How do you communicate to LIVs - Frito Pendejo that minimum wage increases are bad, during the commercial breaks for "Ow My Balls?"
Seems to be a more productive use of time than trying to convince a leftist of the value of a human life.
Seems to be a more productive use of time than trying to convince a leftist of the value of a human life.
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at April 26, 2014 09:57 AM (5ikDv)
100
You can't speak about "The Left" in generalities, somewhat in the sense that you can't speak about those who post on this blog as being in the same universe of thinking as poor Cliven Bundy. Yes "The Left" is a group that votes for Obama and company, as well as for pretty much anyone but a Republican or Libertarian, but it is composed of logic-illiterates like the relatives you meet at the Thanksgiving dinner table or at your mother's bridge game, true illiterates such as those produced by our public education system in the poor urban neighborhoods of this country, academic/intellectual/media types, and politicians/wealthy. The first two categories just don't think, but if you ever got them to they might be shocked--they don't know EITHER side of the argument but just want to be nice or to get more money from an employer. Academic/intellectual/media types have some sort of genetic problem--I'm absolutely convinced of that--because they're literate but they just ignore every piece of evidence and instead choose to self-congratulate that their weltanschauung is best and they'll just legislate accordingly and in the end it will somehow work out. But the only ones who really have any power are the politicians and the wealthy, who are busy trying to obtain more money and power and use the numerically-rich illogical crowds to get there. They please the illogical groups by lies and promises and get their votes, then steal and self-promote, then lie again when caught, and the media/academic/intellectuals cover for them due to the aforementioned genetic flaw. In other words, arguments are no good except with the first two illogical groups but they have no real power except in numbers and it's just a hard row to hoe--not really worth the time if you're trying to effect change. If we don't get more power over education and media outlets (changing the people who teach and write) there is no hope because the politicians and the academics aren't going to change.
Immigration "reform" will of course greatly swell the numbers of the illogical groups unless somehow the qualifications of those admitted into citizenship are taken into account.
I am really pessimistic.
Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 09:57 AM (GVA22)
101
Vaping Menthol E-Cigs is like biting into a York Peppermint Patty.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 09:58 AM (LJ7Ze)
102
Serious question - how would better understanding the lefty argument improve the current situation?
-
I think that leftism is the default position of most people because it's all warm and fuzzy with only a certain amount of hate directed to those who we envy. If we can get to them before their views harden we can immunize them from the sea of propaganda in which we swim.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 09:58 AM (Mogjf)
104
Having given the dictionary definition of 'specious" now I'll give an example:
"employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth,"
That superficially appealing and comforting claim fails to survive the embarrassment test.
That statement can be true only if it is assumed that the "worth" of labor is set by something other than a market; perhaps if "worth" is determined by some GS-10 drone in the Department of Labor applying the "How does this help my Donks at the polls" measure of labor worth.
But if a market determines worth. then what the employer is willing to pay and the employee is willing to earn IS all that the labor is worth.
With the left it always boils down to their hatred of markets. Always.
"employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth,"
That superficially appealing and comforting claim fails to survive the embarrassment test.
That statement can be true only if it is assumed that the "worth" of labor is set by something other than a market; perhaps if "worth" is determined by some GS-10 drone in the Department of Labor applying the "How does this help my Donks at the polls" measure of labor worth.
But if a market determines worth. then what the employer is willing to pay and the employee is willing to earn IS all that the labor is worth.
With the left it always boils down to their hatred of markets. Always.
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 10:00 AM (YBusZ)
105
Did you see where that giant Crucifix broke and killed a young dude?
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 10:01 AM (LJ7Ze)
108
102. The best thing to cure the current situation would be to end payroll tax withholding. Make everybody write a check to the government. Quarterly.
After three quarterly payments, the Dems would be as relevant as the Whigs.
After three quarterly payments, the Dems would be as relevant as the Whigs.
Posted by: Roscoe at April 26, 2014 10:03 AM (YBusZ)
109
Lots of good points made so far. I would add that it should not be the role of government to protect competent adults from the consequences of their bad decisions. Traditionally, most people who work minimum wage jobs as teenagers have become motivated to improve their employability so that they can earn more than minimum wage. When the government dole distorts the wage market, that motivation is lessened.
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 10:03 AM (MKpBT)
110
I've been think for a while it would be really useful to have a wikipedia style site with solid arguments that refute the solid, semi-solid, or total crap arguments offered up by leftists. The idea would be to put together compelling arguments rather than dismiss people as trolls. Members could submit arguments they're hearing from the other side and the group would work out solid responses (even to the out there stuff that wouldn't seem to require a response).
For example, I have a good friend -- lives his life by by 'conservative' values, expects his children to work hard and excel, but thinks John Stewart is a moderate and is 'default liberal' in his positions. When the topic of fracking came up at a recent lunch he stated as gospel the fact that 1 of 4 well casings crumbles and that the government is forbidden by law (Dick Cheney's doing) from testing ground water. Now this isn't a Cindy Sheehan whack job -- this is a good hard working reasonable guy who gets his 'facts' from documentaries and activists masquerading as neutral experts in the mass media.
I think there are a lot of people like that on a lot of topics. Good, reasonable people who swim in the ocean of liberal bias and don't even realize it.
I'd love to have a source that took their arguments down with a gentle, fact-filled, persuasive rebuttal of those 'facts'. Not for op/eds, etc but for the discussion at a picnic, night out, or ball game. If we're going to turn this ship around, we need to convince people like that -- not ridicule and dismiss them.
For example, I have a good friend -- lives his life by by 'conservative' values, expects his children to work hard and excel, but thinks John Stewart is a moderate and is 'default liberal' in his positions. When the topic of fracking came up at a recent lunch he stated as gospel the fact that 1 of 4 well casings crumbles and that the government is forbidden by law (Dick Cheney's doing) from testing ground water. Now this isn't a Cindy Sheehan whack job -- this is a good hard working reasonable guy who gets his 'facts' from documentaries and activists masquerading as neutral experts in the mass media.
I think there are a lot of people like that on a lot of topics. Good, reasonable people who swim in the ocean of liberal bias and don't even realize it.
I'd love to have a source that took their arguments down with a gentle, fact-filled, persuasive rebuttal of those 'facts'. Not for op/eds, etc but for the discussion at a picnic, night out, or ball game. If we're going to turn this ship around, we need to convince people like that -- not ridicule and dismiss them.
Posted by: Fritz (not Fritz) at April 26, 2014 10:03 AM (U0t2o)
111
You can't speak about changing the minds of those on "The Left" in generalities, then.
Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 10:03 AM (GVA22)
112
Well bullshit. Unrestricted immigration destroyed the labor market and the middle class.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 10:04 AM (LJ7Ze)
113
I am really pessimistic.
Posted by: Marta Richards
Of course you are. You're a conservative. It's what we do, and we're usually right. Put another way, we understand entropy. The chances that something good will come out of randomly discarding the lessons learned from the past are remote.
Posted by: Marta Richards
Of course you are. You're a conservative. It's what we do, and we're usually right. Put another way, we understand entropy. The chances that something good will come out of randomly discarding the lessons learned from the past are remote.
Posted by: pep at April 26, 2014 10:05 AM (4nR9/)
114
79 -
Absolutely.
Case in point: Obamacare.
It is possible to make the case to enough LiVs who are only now waking up to the reality that they were railroaded.
Instead, what does the right do? Start talking about immigration. Which will further alienate (see what I did there?) those LiVs who are not yet engaged on that topic beyond wanting to be nice to brown people.
Absolutely.
Case in point: Obamacare.
It is possible to make the case to enough LiVs who are only now waking up to the reality that they were railroaded.
Instead, what does the right do? Start talking about immigration. Which will further alienate (see what I did there?) those LiVs who are not yet engaged on that topic beyond wanting to be nice to brown people.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 10:05 AM (BeSEI)
115
That statement can be true only if it is assumed that the "worth" of labor is set by something other than a market; perhaps if "worth" is determined by some GS-10 drone in the Department of Labor applying the "How does this help my Donks at the polls" measure of labor worth.
-
Worth is determined by the extent something helps the long march through the institutions.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 10:05 AM (Mogjf)
116
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 02:00 PM (TE35l)
****
I actually remember that comment of yours from back when. Not in detail of course, but now that you have mentioned it, it rings a bell.
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 10:05 AM (MKpBT)
117
WTP - the LIVs want to believe empty promises, and don't want to believe that they're empty.
We can try to convince them, by use of math and historical example, but just creating alternate empty promises doesn't do much to change either their votes or their habits.
There is a critical cultural mass of dishonesty that is devilishly difficult to deal with, because the desire to believe the lies is reinforced within communities the same way other religious beliefs are.
Some people "convert away" because they spend time in different communities, for example, business owners. But there's a reason the left loves ideologically-rigid ghettos of thought, whether it's a literal ghetto or Hollywood or Manhattan. It's the same reason Islamists love them.
All this is to say getting past these barriers is a huge job, and it's not mostly about understanding the arguments - which, by and large, we already do, because we talk about very little else all day long.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 26, 2014 10:05 AM (qyfb5)
118
Interesting piece on what's going on in eastern Ukraine.
De fact Russian control, ethnic cleansing of non-Russians. Armed men showing up at the houses of ethnically non-Russians and telling the families that, if they want to live, they better leave. Now.
http://tinyurl.com/m4pv9dq
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 10:06 AM (ZPrif)
119
111 Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 02:03 PM (GVA22)
Dear God in heaven...
I could give two fucks about changing the mind of the "left" I am enraged at the fucking "middle"....
My side of the aisle is judged not on results, not on intentions, BUT IN FACT ON WHAT THE LEFT SAYS ABOUT WHAT WE DO.
I just want people to vote for what the fuck works.
Ogabenomics does not....
Keynes does not...
give work and the will and judgement of the people WRT "value" a goddamned chance.
Dear God in heaven...
I could give two fucks about changing the mind of the "left" I am enraged at the fucking "middle"....
My side of the aisle is judged not on results, not on intentions, BUT IN FACT ON WHAT THE LEFT SAYS ABOUT WHAT WE DO.
I just want people to vote for what the fuck works.
Ogabenomics does not....
Keynes does not...
give work and the will and judgement of the people WRT "value" a goddamned chance.
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 10:06 AM (TE35l)
120
I've been think for a while it would be really useful to have a wikipedia style site with solid arguments that refute the solid, semi-solid, or total crap arguments offered up by leftists.
***
Wiki-Sense
Wiki-Right
Wiki-Debate
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 26, 2014 10:06 AM (DmNpO)
121
Because they are commies who's arguments are worthy of mockery.
Posted by: Jaw knee at April 26, 2014 10:06 AM (kkxa3)
122
Fritz/110 - I know many many conservatives like your friend. Had the same discussion with a conservative recently. This is why the point of this thread is important. The point is not to convince leftists but to solidify the middle and reach the open market.
Posted by: WTP at April 26, 2014 10:07 AM (RQDhf)
123
Hi Kids, this is OSP, I hope everyone is doing well. I am hosting a radio show this evening and I had a panelist cancel on me. It's the Robert Bertrand show on Blog Talk Radio. We discuss Conservative/Libertarian politics and for most of you it's right in your strike zone. The current panelists are Authors from the CLFA (conservative libertarian fiction alliance) Baldilocks, this would be right up your ally. The time slot is from 9-10 Eastern.
If you are interested you can E-mail me @ AmyLynnBraxton@gmail.com. It's really fun, I promise.
***
Hi there OSP! We've missed you around here.
Where ya been hiding?
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 26, 2014 10:07 AM (DmNpO)
124
116 Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 02:05 PM (MKpBT)
It was at the height of my "let's see how long I can not sleep and post 3000 posts a week" glory...
it was a good chat...
in the end this fight boils down to "who gets to judge value"
I say 300,000,000 people....
Obama says 100 civil servants and gallup
It was at the height of my "let's see how long I can not sleep and post 3000 posts a week" glory...
it was a good chat...
in the end this fight boils down to "who gets to judge value"
I say 300,000,000 people....
Obama says 100 civil servants and gallup
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence@sven10077 at April 26, 2014 10:07 AM (TE35l)
125
Something that irritated me badly was the attitude of entitlement among the younger workers that manifested itself in the 80's.
You owe me for just showing up. Don't ask for anything extra, like the myriad of small things that arose in a shop like ours. Such as "You need to clean your work area".
I'll get pissy about that, it isn't part of my job.
We were professionals--it helps to at least LOOK the part.
Something that irritated me badly was the attitude of entitlement among the younger workers that manifested itself in the 80's.
You owe me for just showing up. Don't ask for anything extra, like the myriad of small things that arose in a shop like ours. Such as "You need to clean your work area".
I'll get pissy about that, it isn't part of my job.
We were professionals--it helps to at least LOOK the part.
Posted by: irongrampa at April 26, 2014 10:07 AM (SAMxH)
126
How to win friends and fuck them with the barbed cock of Satan?
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 10:08 AM (LJ7Ze)
127
108. You got that right. I am having some work done at the house. One contractor quoted his price this way: (a) Pay by check .. x. (b) Pay by cash ... x minus 20 percent. Something tells me option (b) leaves Uncle Barack's beak dry.
Posted by: Caledroski at April 26, 2014 10:08 AM (YBusZ)
129
Fritz, the people you describe who have decent family values and education but "see" things so differently are genetically different. I mean it. There is something weird about their brains. They're not really dumb but they just "feel" instead of think when it comes to political theories, opting for communist/socialist stuff because it sounds good. Not sure they're ever going to be able to accept logical arguments. Their brains are screwed up. But poor people and total dilettantes, if ever presented with facts, might change their minds. Of course they have no power. So is it worth it, unless you can do it in a mass-education way? Feels pretty hopeless.
Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 10:08 AM (GVA22)
130
Retweeted by Jim Hoft
DanRiehl @DanRiehl
John McCain to host Hillary Clinton in Sedona, Ariz. http://wapo.st/1jWOJZg
In a statement released Thursday, McCain called Clinton "my friend" and praised her public service career.
"From her years of service as first lady, in the U.S. Senate and the State Department, one would be hard-pressed to find a leader with Secretary Clinton's informed perspective on the many challenges facing America across the globe," McCain said.
..
.
Last month, McCain appeared on stage with Bill Clinton at the Clinton Global Initiative University conference in Tempe, Ariz., hamming it up like old buddies. And this week, Cindy McCain appeared at an event in Phoenix with business and community leaders and to promote Too Small to Fail, the early childhood education initiative that Hillary Clinton is helping lead. McCain sits on the group's leadership council.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 10:08 AM (ZPrif)
132
OSP, welcome home and of course congrats again to the latest sailor again
now that you're back i'll send them now on the way to the range
and to the range I go
got to get the new rifle ready for when the MILITARIZED THUG COPS break in my door and shoot my cats
Posted by: navycopjoe at April 26, 2014 10:11 AM (krmE0)
133
I'm still laughing at Ace's "We shall tweet them on the beaches and in the hedgerows" e-mail from yesterday.
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 10:11 AM (MKpBT)
134
Where ya been hiding?
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 26, 2014 02:07 PM (DmNpO)
I have indeed been writing, and working 5-12's in a factory. I found a real live editor for Amy Lynn, golden Angel and she's a task master. I've been lurking. I miss you guys.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at April 26, 2014 10:14 AM (JFUyc)
135
I'd love to have a source that took their arguments down with a gentle, fact-filled, persuasive rebuttal of those 'facts'.
The problem is that those people are always on the offensive. By the time you've tracked down a rebuttal, they're always on to the next thing.
One big problem with Stewart, it's a part of the clown-nose-on-clown-nose-off thing, is that when he makes a "joke" about, say, Cheney "forbidding water testing", a lot of his ill-informed and unquestioning audience take it as a fact. Or at least a factlet.
The reason why our arguments are so heated these days is that the Left is not bothered with being honest. They'll tell a lie or a half-truth. And they move on, while you're trying to use logic to "rebut" it.
Here's a good example that's not from the Left:
Over half of all rape victims in the US are men.
You can use that for a "war on men" meme if you like. Now an honest person would say, "well, you have to include prisoners in that statistic" but a dishonest person wouldn't mention it at all.
Posted by: AmishDude at April 26, 2014 10:14 AM (1UzRc)
138
NCJ, you ever think about claymores, or maybe some tastefully arranged toe poppers?
Might make for a respectful request to enter.
NCJ, you ever think about claymores, or maybe some tastefully arranged toe poppers?
Might make for a respectful request to enter.
Posted by: irongrampa at April 26, 2014 10:16 AM (SAMxH)
139
I'm still laughing at Ace's "We shall tweet them on the beaches and in the hedgerows" e-mail from yesterday.
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 02:11 PM (MKpBT)
I laughed at "Walk Softly and carry a big hashtag.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at April 26, 2014 10:16 AM (JFUyc)
140
Another lost opportunity: during shutdown theater week.
The right could have HAMMERED the Obama administration for closing off monuments to Veterans, and keeping people out of open air spaces.
Instead they... attacked Ted Cruz.
It is possible to peel off some of the looser thinkers on the left. We don't do that.
The right could have HAMMERED the Obama administration for closing off monuments to Veterans, and keeping people out of open air spaces.
Instead they... attacked Ted Cruz.
It is possible to peel off some of the looser thinkers on the left. We don't do that.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 10:16 AM (BeSEI)
141
but the "economics" behind this line of reasoning is that of a child who understands nothing beyond his weekly allowance.
Posted by: AmishDude at April 26, 2014 01:46 PM (1UzRc)
..and just wants more.
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at April 26, 2014 10:18 AM (5W3xu)
143
And that is why I try not to read my old posts...
I just got IP banned.....
*sigh*
Posted by: sven10077 at April 26, 2014 10:19 AM (zgu9d)
144
Is 18 mg sort of a light E-Cig?
Posted by: Secretariat of State Kerry at April 26, 2014 10:20 AM (LJ7Ze)
145
You can get a new IP every few hours if you want. Are mobile devices stuck with the same IP?
Posted by: Secretariat of State Kerry at April 26, 2014 10:21 AM (LJ7Ze)
146
re: convincing the left
Jeremiah 5:21
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 10:21 AM (MKpBT)
147
"Case in point: Obamacare. It is possible to make the case to enough LiVs who are only now waking up to the reality that they were railroaded. Instead, what does the right do? Start talking about immigration."
Immigration, and a bunch of other crap.
I am still shaking my head in disbelief over last week's official Republican response to Obama's weekly radio address. In that response, we had a GOP senator talking about the party's vision of a future where the likes of the IRS, the FDA and the Labor Department "enable" us to achieve things.
Holy cow.
Here with Obamacare we've got an absolutely note-perfect, textbook example of a Big Government scheme run amuck, and it's wildly unpopular with voters.
What do the brilliant geniuses of the Republican Party opt to do in response? Talk up their ability to _more competently manage_ Big Government clusterfucks! Instead of _getting rid of_ such disasters.
Immigration, and a bunch of other crap.
I am still shaking my head in disbelief over last week's official Republican response to Obama's weekly radio address. In that response, we had a GOP senator talking about the party's vision of a future where the likes of the IRS, the FDA and the Labor Department "enable" us to achieve things.
Holy cow.
Here with Obamacare we've got an absolutely note-perfect, textbook example of a Big Government scheme run amuck, and it's wildly unpopular with voters.
What do the brilliant geniuses of the Republican Party opt to do in response? Talk up their ability to _more competently manage_ Big Government clusterfucks! Instead of _getting rid of_ such disasters.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 26, 2014 10:24 AM (noWW6)
148
Most people who are conservatives, I suspect, started as leftists so we're quite familiar with the arguments and how to present them. Further, since we're inundated and surrounded by leftists and their rhetoric, we know it all pretty well.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 26, 2014 10:31 AM (zfY+H)
149
The Repuke lawmakers want the same thing as the Demotards, Control with a little free market stuff thrown in to the mix. 90% of politicians go to Washington and exist only to stay there for another 2 or 6 years. This is a problem that can only be fixed from the outside. The question is how....
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 26, 2014 10:32 AM (jucos)
150
oh, speaking of hard working Americans (forgot how I came across this...)
Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters — including whites who have not supported Barack Obama in recent contests.
“I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article “that found how Sen. Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.”
“There’s a pattern emerging here,” she said.
Posted by: mallfly at April 26, 2014 10:34 AM (bJm7W)
151
I thought they had to do magic to become saints.
Posted by: Secretariat of State Kerry at April 26, 2014 10:34 AM (LJ7Ze)
152
This discussion reminds me of the book Sticky, about the power of narrative. I think a lot of people who should know better but get sucked into the liberal pov get caught up in the lefty narratives. Lefties always trot out some person who needs help, or who would be harmed by conservative/libertarian policies. Because conservative/libertarian policies are designed to benefit society as a whole and not a specific class of people, it's much harder for us to do the same thing, but I think that's what we need to do. Fight one sad sob story with another sad sob story.
For example - voter fraud. Lefties talk about the 96-year-old woman who is disenfranchise because she can't get her photo id. When conservatives talk about the voters who are disenfranchised by having their vote canceled out by a fraudulent vote, they can't point to a specific person.
Another example - amnesty. Lefties haul out an immigrant family and talk about those mean Republicans who want to deport this nice hardworking family. Conservatives rebut with what - the person waiting patiently in Thirdworldistan to be allowed to immigrate legally? the father who lost his job due to a labor market flooded by illegal aliens? How do you show that their harm is a direct result of liberal policies?
Emotionally-driven people respond to stories, and we need to tell better stories about the harm liberal policies cause. And this is one reason why Obamacare is resonating with the muddled middle. It's a story that's easy to understand.
Posted by: biancaneve at April 26, 2014 10:39 AM (2sR50)
153
This is fucking stupid.
Posted by: Andy at April 26, 2014 02:15 PM (Wd1Zo)
Of course it is. That's the point. It sounds good to the ignorant ears of the leftist sheep, but any logical analysis shows that the math is wrong, the economics is wrong, and the understanding of self-interest is embarrassingly wrong.
Posted by: Andy at April 26, 2014 02:15 PM (Wd1Zo)
Of course it is. That's the point. It sounds good to the ignorant ears of the leftist sheep, but any logical analysis shows that the math is wrong, the economics is wrong, and the understanding of self-interest is embarrassingly wrong.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 26, 2014 10:39 AM (QFxY5)
154
150 -
The problem for Hilly with her "hey all you ignorant rednecks, I'm white like you" strategy is that she risks alienating a large portion of the 110% of inner city voting precincts Obama had.
The problem for Hilly with her "hey all you ignorant rednecks, I'm white like you" strategy is that she risks alienating a large portion of the 110% of inner city voting precincts Obama had.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 10:41 AM (BeSEI)
156
Current Liberals and the government, birm, believe in trading the boom-and-bust cycle for a general slow recession for the citizens, particularly the poor, while protecting their cronies. I'm not sure whether this is our of honest ignorance, or deliberate malevolence, but I'm inclined toward the latter.
Posted by: toby928© at April 26, 2014 10:42 AM (QupBk)
157
Cry havoc and unleash the hashtags of war!
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 10:43 AM (Mogjf)
158
"The problem for Hilly with her "hey all you ignorant rednecks, I'm white like you" strategy is that she risks alienating a large portion of the 110% of inner city voting precincts Obama had. "
When their choice is between two white people, they'll go with the Democrat every time. If its a Republican black guy and a Democrat white, then it shifts to about 80% Democrat.
When their choice is between two white people, they'll go with the Democrat every time. If its a Republican black guy and a Democrat white, then it shifts to about 80% Democrat.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 26, 2014 10:45 AM (zfY+H)
159
>>Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters — including whites who have not supported Barack Obama in recent contests.
“I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article “that found how Sen. Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.”
“There’s a pattern emerging here,” she said.
Yeah, democrats are racists.
Posted by: Aviator at April 26, 2014 10:46 AM (3rrMW)
160
152 -
One way to fight voter fraud in the court of public opinion.
An ad: shows a cemetery with row upon row of gravestones.
Voice-over: These people can be counted on to vote for the Democrat candidate in this race.
Show a picture of ordinary Americans (make it a rainbow, who cares).
Voice-over: How many of you will it take to overcome our disadvantage?
Fade out, with "paid for by the committee to elect so and so."
One way to fight voter fraud in the court of public opinion.
An ad: shows a cemetery with row upon row of gravestones.
Voice-over: These people can be counted on to vote for the Democrat candidate in this race.
Show a picture of ordinary Americans (make it a rainbow, who cares).
Voice-over: How many of you will it take to overcome our disadvantage?
Fade out, with "paid for by the committee to elect so and so."
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 10:47 AM (BeSEI)
162
They're not really dumb but they just "feel" instead of think when it comes to political theories, opting for communist/socialist stuff because it sounds good.
-
Thinking is hard. Feeling is easy.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 10:47 AM (Mogjf)
163
>>The problem for Hilly with her "hey all you ignorant rednecks, I'm white like you" strategy is that she risks alienating a large portion of the 110% of inner city voting precincts Obama had.
She will just have to live with 105%
Posted by: Aviator at April 26, 2014 10:50 AM (3rrMW)
164
She will still pull 110% of the vote in Cincinnati.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 10:52 AM (LJ7Ze)
165
This Perdomo En Vidrio 7.25 x 54 Nicaraguan cigar is mighty tasty.
Posted by: Buddha at April 26, 2014 10:53 AM (IBZR2)
166
What if they gave a hashtag and nobody came?
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 10:53 AM (Mogjf)
167
I've come too far, I ain't noways tarred...
...and feathered.
Posted by: S. Muldoon at April 26, 2014 10:53 AM (MKpBT)
168
Man Putin is ever screwed. He brought a gun to a Tweet fight.
Posted by: Jen Psaki at April 26, 2014 10:54 AM (uPtQh)
170
What do the brilliant geniuses of the Republican
Party opt to do in response? Talk up their ability to _more competently
manage_ Big Government clusterfucks! Instead of _getting rid of_ such
disasters.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 26, 2014 02:24 PM
====
For a second, I thought you had typed "getting rid of_such dissenters".
Posted by: torquewrench at April 26, 2014 02:24 PM
====
For a second, I thought you had typed "getting rid of_such dissenters".
Posted by: mrp at April 26, 2014 10:55 AM (JBggj)
171
If America isn't tired of dummycrat misrule come 2016 I am leaving. Peruvia's weather is better than MD, and the rulers are benevolent.
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 26, 2014 10:55 AM (jucos)
172
Who brings a crossbow to a Twitter fight?
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 10:56 AM (LJ7Ze)
173
The G.O.P. We manage clusterfucks more efficiently.
Posted by: P. Reibus at April 26, 2014 10:57 AM (IBZR2)
174
When you ignore the mechanics of supply and demand for the fairy tales of wishes you deserve to be considered an idiot.
There is a simple way to find 'economic justice' in America. You work harder than others, take informed risks, and do it all over again when your venture stalls or fails.
There are those that do not have the basic intelligence to do this, and they have been looked after for centuries, but those looked after will never be on the same economic footing as those who are doing the looking. This is because you are once again back to the mechanics of supply and demand.
Posted by: Mekan at April 26, 2014 10:57 AM (zG16+)
175
163 -
Could be, but if enough voters in these areas, alive or not, don't vote for her, it will make a difference.
If Barak got 5500 votes in an area with 5000 registered voters, is it unreasonable to assume Hillury might only get 4000?
We'll see.
Could be, but if enough voters in these areas, alive or not, don't vote for her, it will make a difference.
If Barak got 5500 votes in an area with 5000 registered voters, is it unreasonable to assume Hillury might only get 4000?
We'll see.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 26, 2014 10:57 AM (BeSEI)
176
Crossbows are so 19th century.
Posted by: Secretariet of State, Jon F Karry at April 26, 2014 10:57 AM (jucos)
178
Obama: Making Tin Pot Banana Republic Dictators Appear More Respectable Since 2008.
Posted by: Buddha at April 26, 2014 10:59 AM (IBZR2)
179
If Putin brings a knife, we bring a tweet.
Posted by: Jen Psaki at April 26, 2014 10:59 AM (uPtQh)
182
Most of the Left's arguments seem to be to deny that the things that will obviously happen will happen.
This is part of every argument they make-- deny the consequences to push it through, and when the consequences inevitably develop, it will be too late to get rid of it.
Posted by: --- at April 26, 2014 11:00 AM (MMC8r)
184
NBA is in a kinda funny spot. People had said for years and years that Clippers owner was a racist.
Now TMZ has a copy of leaked audio of him going on racist rants.
Most of his team is, of course, black guys. Also his coach and tons of the staff.
With the leaked tape he's basically become the NBA's Marge Schott.
I expect the Clippers players to do some protest at their game tomorrow. Probably wear something.
They'll still cash his check, of course. They're angry about his racist rants, but they aren't stupid.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 11:02 AM (ZPrif)
185
Neeeeeiggggh; You're wrong,. Secretariat of State. They don't need to "do magic". People who are declared saints have miracles of healing that cannot be explained by other means-attributed to them. But it's primarily about the holiness off the lives. Here is a bit about the process for canonization:
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0136.html
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at April 26, 2014 11:03 AM (XyM/Y)
186
This is part of every argument they make-- deny the consequences to push it through, and when the consequences inevitably develop, it will be too late to get rid of it.
-
Or even better, those consequences require even more government intervention.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 11:05 AM (Mogjf)
187
O/T
Does anyone know the political leanings of the LA Clippers owner, who got popped on tape for denigrating blacks?
*Drudge*
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice, at April 26, 2014 11:07 AM (X2NEw)
188
England expects every man to do his hash tag.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 11:08 AM (Mogjf)
189
It's definitely a good idea to understand the left's thinking. On economics, the left is just purely ignorant. That's it, as far as I can tell---ignorance and a dash of envy. I've convinced a few liberals that min. wage increases are worthless by pointing out that the minimum wage can never actually be a "living wage". I do this by starting the argument off with one thing they always want a minimum wage worker to be able to afford: Childcare. It's the easiest expense to argue on because it's the only direct, no middle man transfer of wealth in most poor people's budget. If you point out that a daycare has to have one worker for every three babies,and that worker has to make at least minimum wage,, it dawns on them somehow that a minimum wage worker with a baby will ALWAYS pay at least one-third of her paycheck to the babysitter/daycare. Somehow pointing out the same thing with a gallon of milk (the price goes up because the dairy workers have to get a raise, and so does the trucker who brings the milk to the store, and the stockboy, and the cashier...) just doesn't work, but dusing daycare as the example does.
Now social issues, though. The right really should do a better job of trying to understand the left/squish position on those.
Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at April 26, 2014 11:09 AM (QzC4A)
190
understand the philosophical and economic underpinnings of their world view.
They are all wrong. Now, can I go stab them in the throat?
Posted by: Behind Enemy Lines at April 26, 2014 11:10 AM (thLL8)
191
who got popped on tape for denigrating blacks?
So, he/she denigrated the entire NBA?
Posted by: Behind Enemy Lines at April 26, 2014 11:11 AM (thLL8)
192
The First Trannie will not be giving that commencement speech.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 11:12 AM (LJ7Ze)
193
"The problem for Hilly with her 'hey all you ignorant rednecks, I'm white
like you' strategy is that she risks alienating a large portion of the
110% of inner city voting precincts Obama had."
2016 is not going to be a happy year. All of the chickens from the Obama years will be coming home to roost.
(The Fuse On The Employer Mandate Bomb chimes in: "Sssssssssssssssssss.")
Let us postulate that there is going to be a hell of a mess, the existence of which will not be able to be denied.
It's going to be relatively easy for a Republican nominee to say, "I'll fix this mess."
It's going to be far more difficult for Ready For Hillary! to say, "I'll fix this mess."
Because whomever is saying that, there will be an absolutely unavoidable implicit subtext of, "that the black guy created," and for the Democratic candidate, that is not going to resonate well or produce elation in the critically important AfAm voter base.
So it will fall to Ready For Hillary! to simultaneously describe the Obama years as having been a brilliant sweeping triumph on all fronts, to keep her AfAm bloc happy, while at the same time describing herself to the larger electorate as the woman who can set to rights everything that's wrong. Even though nothing is wrong.
This sort of squaring of the circle has been carried off before. Recall Obama's basic 2008 campaign premise, which was that "America is the greatest country in the world and I hope you'll join me in changing everything about it."
2016 won't look or feel that much like 2008. Not least, because the eight-year incumbency burden will be on Democratic shoulders.
2016 is not going to be a happy year. All of the chickens from the Obama years will be coming home to roost.
(The Fuse On The Employer Mandate Bomb chimes in: "Sssssssssssssssssss.")
Let us postulate that there is going to be a hell of a mess, the existence of which will not be able to be denied.
It's going to be relatively easy for a Republican nominee to say, "I'll fix this mess."
It's going to be far more difficult for Ready For Hillary! to say, "I'll fix this mess."
Because whomever is saying that, there will be an absolutely unavoidable implicit subtext of, "that the black guy created," and for the Democratic candidate, that is not going to resonate well or produce elation in the critically important AfAm voter base.
So it will fall to Ready For Hillary! to simultaneously describe the Obama years as having been a brilliant sweeping triumph on all fronts, to keep her AfAm bloc happy, while at the same time describing herself to the larger electorate as the woman who can set to rights everything that's wrong. Even though nothing is wrong.
This sort of squaring of the circle has been carried off before. Recall Obama's basic 2008 campaign premise, which was that "America is the greatest country in the world and I hope you'll join me in changing everything about it."
2016 won't look or feel that much like 2008. Not least, because the eight-year incumbency burden will be on Democratic shoulders.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 26, 2014 11:14 AM (noWW6)
194
How did they manage to get Michelle not to do the speech after all?
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at April 26, 2014 11:14 AM (XyM/Y)
195
Former Republican Gov. Tom Ridge is stepping down from his position with Michael BloombergÂ’s new anti-gun organization, The Daily Caller has learned.
Weasel Zippers
Just another Bush assclown. God, Bush was a fucking shitstain.
Posted by: Behind Enemy Lines at April 26, 2014 11:14 AM (thLL8)
196
LA Clippers story here
http://tinyurl.com/mjq6zng
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice, at April 26, 2014 11:15 AM (X2NEw)
197
I think most minimum wage arguments are too complex. It's simple:
$7.25/ hr. to $10.00/ hr.= about 38% increase.
Question 1: Are you prepared to pay 38% more for everything that you buy to offset this increase?
Question 2: If the cost everything that everyone who makes minimum wage buys increases by 38%, did they actually get a raise or did their raise cost more than they got in increased wages?
Of course, the answer liberal will give is "... but RECORD PROFITS! CORPORATIONS!! CEO PAY!!!".
To which I answer, 1. I don't know of many companies that net 38% or more each year, and 2. I don't know anyone who get's paid 38% of net each year. So, if profits were zero and CEO pay were zero, who is going to pick up the remainder of the increase labor cost?
To which, liberals would answer, "You're a racist/ misogynist, etc." and "Shut up".
Posted by: Damiano at April 26, 2014 11:15 AM (j0wOO)
198
We are soldiers in the war of the memes.
Freedom meme vs. feudalism meme.
The freedom meme maximizes its own success by maximizing the freedom of the individual.
The feudalism meme maximizes its own success by maximizing the deception and exploitation of the individual.
This war will crush our civilization and if we are lucky and well-prepared, a new and better one will stumble out of the ruins.
Posted by: eman at April 26, 2014 11:15 AM (AO9UG)
199
Big problem with ANY Republican argument or talking point, not just on this topic, is that, with the exception of Fox, there really isn't any airtime being given to it on television (the preferred medium of the LiV). The LiV doesn't listen to conservative talk radio. Any argument will lose if no one hears it. Is there no way to get people like the Koch Brothers to buy a major network or something....Or maybe it would be worth it to make a pact with the devil and bribe media moguls with the same kind of promises and tax breaks and stuff that the Dems give them so that we can get heard. I am not in favor of terrorism and Bill Ayers-type stuff, but when on the right crazy people do those things they target wrongly. If I could get rid of something I'd get rid of journalism schools.
Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 11:15 AM (GVA22)
200
From American Digest today:
“I ceased in the year 1764 to believe that one can convince one’s opponents with arguments printed in books. It is not to do that, therefore, that I have taken up my pen, but merely so as to annoy them, and to bestow strength and courage on those on our own side, and to make it known to the others that they have not convinced us.”
-Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, The Waste Books, Notebook E , 1775-76
“I ceased in the year 1764 to believe that one can convince one’s opponents with arguments printed in books. It is not to do that, therefore, that I have taken up my pen, but merely so as to annoy them, and to bestow strength and courage on those on our own side, and to make it known to the others that they have not convinced us.”
-Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, The Waste Books, Notebook E , 1775-76
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 26, 2014 11:16 AM (zfY+H)
201
Stand back bitchez, once my Ipad is charged and I log-in, and after I have my arugula salad and latte, and then after my manicure and yoga sessions, I'm gonna tweet this mofo a new one.
Posted by: Jen Psaki at April 26, 2014 11:17 AM (uPtQh)
202
Torquewrench, if the GOP takes the Senate 2016 will mean President Hillary or Cuomo. I hate to say it but I'm afraid that the country will be told the problem is the Republicans in Congress and the LiVs will believe it.
Posted by: Marta Richards at April 26, 2014 11:17 AM (GVA22)
204
I long for the the that schools are fully funded and the Pentagon has to hold a bake sale to pay for hashtags.
Posted by: WalrusRex at April 26, 2014 11:20 AM (Mogjf)
205
2011 political donations of NBA owners and execs
http://basketball.realgm.com/article/216307
Donald Sterling, Los Angeles Clippers
Records show Sterling has donated just $6,000, with no activity since the early 1990s. He supported Gray Davis early in his career, as well as Bill Bradley.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 11:20 AM (ZPrif)
206
Put another way. Are you prepared to spend $8 on a Big Mac and $3 for a fry? You wont get out of McCrapballs for less than $15.
Posted by: Secretariet of State, Jon F Karry at April 26, 2014 11:22 AM (jucos)
207
Stern has since retired, and Silver now runs the NBA
--
David Stern, NBA Commissioner
Stern has been incredibly active in the Democratic Party for decades, with over $1 million in total donations. Few individuals in the United States have donated as much money to political campaigns as Stern.
Adam Silver, Deputy Commissioner
Like his boss, Silver has been a frequent donor to Democrats. He has become more frequent in his donations since 2004 and was an early supporter of Barack Obama.
Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 26, 2014 11:22 AM (ZPrif)
210
They say that in movies, the audience cares a lot more about one person than a bunch of people. Like a city of ten million being threatened doesn't tug on the emotions even as much as one guy being rejected by one girl.
The Left uses this to their advantage in talking about one hypothetical person (a waitress, a slut), while we're left talking about everyone collectively (unemployment, security, freedom). It would be ironic if they didn't plan it that way.
Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 26, 2014 11:23 AM (QCo5R)
211
206 Put another way. Are you prepared to spend $8 on a Big Mac and $3 for a fry? You wont get out ofMcCrapballs for less than $15.
It's worse than that.
A 38% increase in hour rates will also increase the tax liability for employers and employees. In many cases, this increase will move the employee to a higher tax bracket and corresponding percentage increases to SSI and Medicare.
The result:
For employers, a 38% increase may cost up to 45% or more.
For employees, a 38% increase may result in a decrease in net pay
Plus:
- Obamacare costs: $300+ per month from the employee AND employer or 1% of the employees gross income (It's a TAX!!!)
My prediction: Within the next 5 years, you won't be able to eat at McCrapballs for less that $20- 25 a head.
Posted by: Damiano at April 26, 2014 11:34 AM (j0wOO)
212
I don't eat that crap now. It isn't worth what it costs. Buy a lump of beef for $3.
Posted by: Boss Moss at April 26, 2014 11:36 AM (LJ7Ze)
213
“From her years of service as first lady, in the U.S. Senate and the State Department,one would be hard-pressed to find a leader with Secretary Clinton’s informed perspective on the many challenges facing America across the globe,” McCain said. -----------------------
I read this quote to wifey and she guessed it came from Pelosi. This is where we are.
I read this quote to wifey and she guessed it came from Pelosi. This is where we are.
Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 26, 2014 11:36 AM (QCo5R)
214
My friends, we have nothing to fear from a Hillary Clinton Presidency.
Posted by: John McCain at April 26, 2014 11:38 AM (LJ7Ze)
215
Didn't read all the posts so I don't know if this argument was addressed. Awhile back I got in a heated discussion on FB about minimum wage. He tried to tell me that minimum wage is supposed to be a living wage and his professor stated that in class. I told him his prof was either a liar or ignorant and that it was only supposed to be an entry level wage. People were never expected to live their entire lives at that level and they were expected to gain experience from the position in order to move up the ladder. He refused to believe that and insisted his prof was right. How do you argue such stupid logic?
Posted by: Bill R. at April 26, 2014 11:39 AM (R+GzT)
216
Watch what happens to the price of all food as gas prices go up, new EPA regulations take effect, and the ACA nails everything down the food chain next year or two.
Unless President Obama delays it all again.
Unless President Obama delays it all again.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 26, 2014 11:41 AM (zfY+H)
217
"Over half of all rape victims in the US are men."
90% of those rape victims are homosexuals who just had an 'argument' with their 'husbands'.
If those 90% of homosexuals were in a relationship with a woman their chances to be raped (as in 'sodomized) would dramatically decrease.
This is a good argument in favour of heterosexuality, yet nobody does it.
Posted by: fromabroad at April 26, 2014 11:41 AM (rnV3B)
218
And if McCrapballs costs $25 a head, then a place like The Outback will be $75 to $90 a head. Dummycrat economics writ large.
Posted by: Secretariet of State, Jon F Karry at April 26, 2014 11:42 AM (jucos)
219
I've posted this before, but it seems relevant again.
I once ran a job ad for a $10/ hr. part time job (about 20- 24 hours per week). (note: this was about 4 years ago, before Obamanomics had reached it's present, destructive power).
I got a response which, to summarize, called me a racist and made multiple accusations of how I was "exploiting people" because "how am I supposed to afford a 3 bedroom apartment" on a $10/ hour, part time job.
I considered replying but realized that 1. there is no fixing this level of stupidity and 2. no matter how professionally and diplomatically I replied, I'd probably end up with some EEOC and similar hassles for the next 6 months for my trouble.
Posted by: Damiano at April 26, 2014 11:53 AM (j0wOO)
220
>Studies of the fast food industry by Card and Walker demonstrated that raising the minimum wage had little effect on employment levels.
Haven't there been so many other studies that contradict this?
Posted by: mig0 at April 26, 2014 12:02 PM (ZBp3f)
221
>>Haven't there been so many other studies that contradict this?
Racist!
Posted by: Aviator at April 26, 2014 12:09 PM (3rrMW)
222
>Studies of the fast food industry by Card and Walker demonstrated that raising the minimum wage had little effect on employment levels.
Haven't there been so many other studies that contradict this?
Posted by: mig0 at April 26, 2014 04:02 PM (ZBp3f)
Probably, but it's all a phony 'pick and choose statistics that match your conclusion' game.
Let's say this study is correct and minimum wage increase yielded no effect on employment levels. What was the impact on product/ service prices? What was the impact to the wage increase recipient's net income, standard of living, and/ or debt? If there was indeed no change in employment levels, does this demonstrate a neutral change, as implied, or does it show negative job growth (no new jobs instead of year over year growth if wages had remained flat)?
Liberals never understand that changes ALWAYS balance. No matter how good your intentions allegedly are, there is always one or more consequences.
Posted by: Damiano at April 26, 2014 12:14 PM (j0wOO)
223
Tell you what, I will agree to increasing minimum wage by whatever percentage anyone likes... IF there are equal percentage cuts to government benefits and corporate tax rates.
Minimum wage goes up to $10/ hour? Fine. Cut tax rates across the board by 38% and all welfare benefits by 38%.
It's really a shame that no one understands that the only interest that government has in minimum wage rates is first, the exponential tax revenue increase (both through higher wage rates and people getting bumped to higher tax brackets), and second, it buys votes at no cost to the idiots running for election.
There is no statistic, ever, that has show an correlation between high minimum wage, job growth, or improved standards of living for anyone. The only benefit of minimum wage increases is to politicians running for office and government coffers.
Posted by: Damiano at April 26, 2014 12:24 PM (j0wOO)
224
Ratios are unemotional, unbiased and true. More money chasing after the same number of goods and services creates inflation.
The "Minimum Wage" creates a "Basement Market". The ratio from the basement to the goods will remain the same.
Convincing one's self that carrying buckets of water from the Deep End to the Shallow End makes the Shallow End Deeper is like sewing holes together to make a net.
The "Minimum Wage" creates a "Basement Market". The ratio from the basement to the goods will remain the same.
Convincing one's self that carrying buckets of water from the Deep End to the Shallow End makes the Shallow End Deeper is like sewing holes together to make a net.
Posted by: Your Volunteer Fire Dept. at April 26, 2014 12:30 PM (lq3Ak)
226
Damn Slap, that is some post at 224. Brilliant.
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 26, 2014 12:35 PM (jucos)
227
I think what's just as important as 'understanding the Left's arguments' is 'understanding that many leftists have no arguments'.
Don't get me wrong. I understand and agree that various people can give something in the ballpark of a principled (even if at times highly flawed), dispassionate argument for various leftist policies and views. But the idea that their positions are driven by serious intellectual consideration on average ('The average DailyKOS reader') is one I believe to be flawed. Most people - and you can probably say this about the right as well as the left - tend not to think things through very well, and don't come to their positions as a result of serious and thoughtful reflection about the arguments and data.
I only mention all this since I don't want people to overestimate their opponents, which I think is habitual with many on the right.
Posted by: Crude at April 26, 2014 12:37 PM (edicg)
230
No problem. I appreciate one who can paint vivid pictures with their words. You are one of those people.
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 26, 2014 12:46 PM (jucos)
231
...I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that those phrases weren't mine.
They were a combination of my Marketing Teacher in H.S., (Ratios; Goods and Services) , Judge Andrew Napolitano, (Basement Markets), Dan Mitchell from International Liberty, (the pool), and a fourth-grade play, (sewing holes together to make a net).
I can't remember the name of the play, but the Village Idiot sat there "making things from thin-air". When asked what the hell he was doing?, he said: "I'm taking all these holes in the air and making a net."
They were a combination of my Marketing Teacher in H.S., (Ratios; Goods and Services) , Judge Andrew Napolitano, (Basement Markets), Dan Mitchell from International Liberty, (the pool), and a fourth-grade play, (sewing holes together to make a net).
I can't remember the name of the play, but the Village Idiot sat there "making things from thin-air". When asked what the hell he was doing?, he said: "I'm taking all these holes in the air and making a net."
Posted by: Slapweasel at April 26, 2014 12:53 PM (lq3Ak)
232
...And any loss of employment from higher minimum wages would be more than
offset by the Keynesian stimulative effect to the economy as a whole of
increasing wages among lower income workers, who tend to consume nearly
100% of incremental income."
This always cracks me up. Why not raise it to $20.00/Hr.? Why not Forty or Fifty? That should really Keynes The Pump!
Paraphrasing Ms. Pelosi: "For every dollar in unemployment, we get one-dollar twenty in stimulative results!"
...let's all go on unemployment. Keynes could then Kick the Russians' Asses with "Welfare Tanks" and "Stimulus Missiles"!
-The new "Subsidy Fighters" would fly below the radar and break a lot of Russian Windows, however. -Damnit!!!
...That would stimulate their economy. It is certainly a Catch-22.
This always cracks me up. Why not raise it to $20.00/Hr.? Why not Forty or Fifty? That should really Keynes The Pump!
Paraphrasing Ms. Pelosi: "For every dollar in unemployment, we get one-dollar twenty in stimulative results!"
...let's all go on unemployment. Keynes could then Kick the Russians' Asses with "Welfare Tanks" and "Stimulus Missiles"!
-The new "Subsidy Fighters" would fly below the radar and break a lot of Russian Windows, however. -Damnit!!!
...That would stimulate their economy. It is certainly a Catch-22.
Posted by: Slapweasel at April 26, 2014 01:07 PM (lq3Ak)
233
I think trying to emotionally get into the heads of lefty's in order to convert them is not possible; it's blatantly obvious the following premise is flawed from an honest conservative standpoint, and arguing it is disingenuous. The Left deals in "all is fair in war" means to ends. Conservatives do not. These are the "poles."
The Left argues in emotion and rhetoric, the Conservatives from logic and learning (via history).
"There is a substantial power imbalance between minimum wage workers and employers, such that employers are able to pay such workers far less than their labor is worth, and far less than they would be willing to pay if they had to."
This premise is clearly false, because employment is "at will," therefore minimum wage workers have power, and power equal to their employers in this respect. "Free" market forces dictate wages; businesses often pay much more than the minimum wage to attract better workers and retain them. In PA, a local Sheetz convenience store is paying $10.10 an hour for cashiers. It can be argued this is over paying for someone to push buttons and count money and service customers, not at all far below their worth.
NOW, if you did it as masquerading as a moderate and deceptively hiding your true ideology as Leftists do, I think you might have some traction, especially with the young and stupid. Otherwise Conservatives should never accept Liberal premises as a basis for an argument, because it confuses the honest who just don't know any better. There has to be two poles from which to anchor an ideological measuring tape, so to speak.
@peeteysdee
Posted by: Peter S. Dee at April 26, 2014 01:16 PM (fXVYu)
235
218 ...a place like The Outback will be $75 to $90 a head. Dummycrat economics writ large.
***
Doesn't matter to them. They have a taxpayer funded expense account so they'll be eating at Peter Luger.
***
Doesn't matter to them. They have a taxpayer funded expense account so they'll be eating at Peter Luger.
Posted by: Beto at April 26, 2014 01:24 PM (gmrH5)
236
I understand the left's arguments just fine.
Thing is, they're grounded in a Utopian World View which has never, doesn't, and won't exist.
Posted by: tangonine at April 26, 2014 01:29 PM (x3YFz)
237
Everybody recognizes zombies and quickly moves to killing them on sight. Yet commies have been a brainless, walking dead, mass murdering, canniballistic, society destroying mob for 100+ years and we make college professors and presiDUHnts out of them.
Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at April 26, 2014 01:29 PM (DL2i+)
238
the really good burger flippers are making $12 plus already
Posted by: Beto at April 26, 2014 05:20 PM (gmrH5)
There's "really good" burger flippers? As in people who overachieve at making a sandwich that will be devoured thoughtlessly by some cross-eyed soccer mom's spawn in the back of a Prius?
Why?
Posted by: tangonine at April 26, 2014 01:31 PM (x3YFz)
239
when i was a youngster minimum wage employment was one step up from mowing lawns or delivering the newspaper. don't view it any differently today.
Posted by: uglykidmoe at April 26, 2014 02:53 PM (XH7xw)
240
Well, I can only speak for myself, but as a former liberal, I understand their arguments perfectly. These arguments made perfect sense to me back then.
This brings up an important point that I wish more people on the right would remember: The people making these arguments aren't all bad people. Some of them are, I agree. But it's always important to keep in mind when talking to liberals that there is a certain segment who are merely misinformed. I know such people exist, because I used to be one.
In my case, what changed me were three things:
1. Being exposed to how the real world works. It's here that you learn to understand the old engineer's lament: "'Theory' must be a wonderful place. Everything works there."
2. Learning that liberal policies almost never solve the problems they are designed to solve, and frequently make those problems far worse. Now for some on the left, this is a feature, not a bug. But for those who are being sincere, like I was, this is a crucial epiphany, because so much of my liberalism flowed from the natural desire to see myself as a good person. The realization that left-wing policies often hurt the very people they are designed to help is, I suspect, the main tipping point for anybody who is moving from the left to the right. It takes a bit to get there, but once you're over that conceptual hump, conservatism starts to make a WHOLE lot more sense.
3. The last piece of my transformation was the most important: Finding friendly, patient conservatives who did not conform to the boogeyman stereotypes I had been fed by the left, and who didn't constantly insult me and tell me I was a totalitarian commie bastard. I sometimes wish more conservatives understood this, although what really surprises me is how so few liberals understand it. For people who pride themselves on being so smart and reasonable, they seem remarkably uninterested in reasoning with the other side.
I'll often be reading something written by a liberal, and I'll find myself thinking, "you know, if I were actually trying to *win over* a conservative, I wouldn't put it this way. I'd point out so-and-so and such-and-such, which would give many conservatives pause." But I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say I barely ever see that from the left, and the few times I do see it, they seem to be addressing themselves to a DailyKos cartoon version of the right, and not any actual conservative I've ever met in real life.
It's actually quite fascinating how many liberal "arguments" seem designed mainly to stroke the egos of other liberals. It would be like conservatives saying something like, "you should support lower taxes, because everybody knows right-wingers have BIGGER DICKS." Conservatives might say something like that as a *joke*, but I've seen liberals make similar arguments as if they were being completely serious.
Posted by: Wes at April 26, 2014 03:01 PM (zCbMz)
241
240. Agreed.
Liberals cleave into three groups.
One group is essentially helpless and just wants free stuff.
The second group is genuinely driven by sympathy for group one. They don't want anybody to suffer or be uncomfortable, ever. To achieve that objective, they are willing to abide endless welfare and government intrusion. They are misguided and low information but well intentioned.
The third group is much more sinister. They shamelessly exploit the helplessness and dependency of group one and the emotional immaturity and low information of group two by promising to deliver a world without pain and discomfort to both. Group three can never do that of course and they well know it. But that does not matter since it is power they want to gain, not charity.
Liberals cleave into three groups.
One group is essentially helpless and just wants free stuff.
The second group is genuinely driven by sympathy for group one. They don't want anybody to suffer or be uncomfortable, ever. To achieve that objective, they are willing to abide endless welfare and government intrusion. They are misguided and low information but well intentioned.
The third group is much more sinister. They shamelessly exploit the helplessness and dependency of group one and the emotional immaturity and low information of group two by promising to deliver a world without pain and discomfort to both. Group three can never do that of course and they well know it. But that does not matter since it is power they want to gain, not charity.
Posted by: Caledroski at April 26, 2014 03:19 PM (YBusZ)
242
"...But it pays to understand the philosophical and economic underpinnings of their world view."
It would if there were any.
Keynesianism is to economics as astrology is to astronomy.
Posted by: Steve in Greensboro at April 26, 2014 04:56 PM (ZG3Fa)
243
Be patient and explain things? That presumes sincerity. Impossible to affect resolutely closed minds when they are saying, "no, no, no, no, no" as you speak. And who has the time to impart college education to fiercely closed partisan minds? Nobody. Ridiculing their dicks is far more effective.
Posted by: bour3 at April 26, 2014 05:14 PM (5x3+2)
244
“I ceased in the year 1764 to believe that one can convince one’s opponents with arguments printed in books. It is not to do that, therefore, that I have taken up my pen, but merely so as to annoy them, and to bestow strength and courage on those on our own side, and to make it known to the others that they have not convinced us.”
~~ Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, The Waste Books, Notebook E, 1775-76
From mildcolonialboy via Ka-Ching
Posted by: Steve in Greensboro at April 26, 2014 05:16 PM (ZG3Fa)
245
e, though at $7.25 an hour the minimum wage is still too low to be humane and needs to be raised. When companies pay below a living wage, they not only exploit workers but taxpayers as well, since they are accepting a form of corporate welfare when taxpayers (through food stamps and Medicare and the like) help sustain their underpaid workers.
Opponents of the minimum wage will sometimes argue that higher minimum wages reduce employment. However, since in most cases employers of low-skilled workers are paying workers less than they are willing and able to pay, raising the minimum wage has little effect on employment...And any loss of employment from higher minimum wages would be more than offset by the Keynesian stimulative effect to the economy as a whole of increasing wages among lower income workers, who tend to consume nearly 100% of incremental income."
Those are contradictory statements. If everybody is making a profit from low labor costs, SOMEBODY would undersell the competition and get more sales while taking a smaller profit per sale, since those people paying 100% of their income are going to go for bargains.
But we're not seeing prices go down anywhere, on anything.
"Studies of the fast food industry by Card and Walker demonstrated that raising the minimum wage had little effect on employment levels."
What does that mean? Absolute numbers of employees or are "employment levels" the number guys per store?
Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 27, 2014 06:24 PM (8rRE+)
246
I liked this post. Yes, we need to understand the arguments and fundamental beliefs of those you wish to persuade. The key word here is persuasion, and the left is much better at marketing their ideas. If you wish to persuade, you also have to keep from coming across as offensive. For example, every time someone on the right says, "we need to take our country back," it is taken by some to be a racist remark in that it needs to be taken back from a black dude that is currently the president. Right or wrong, whether it is meant that way or not, that is how many hear that statement. There is a better way to state things - i.e., in a way that doesn't shut down the listener- in a way that others can easily have. Using loaded language is a sure fire way to get someone to harden their resolve and argue instead of consider your viewpoints. We have to think about what we say, how we say it, and how it is received. Affirmative Action bake sales, etc. is probably not the best way to open an honest discussion on the issue. We also need to think about all these people with the massive foot in mouth syndrome. They are doing nothing but falling into the trap and allowing those that are conservative to be marginalized, and thereby, politically ostracized. A serious rebranding needs to take place if the Republican party is to survive as a viable political entity moving forward.
Posted by: MistressOverdone at April 28, 2014 06:24 PM (2/oBD)
Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top
232kb generated in CPU 0.0631, elapsed 0.3376 seconds.
64 queries taking 0.2964 seconds, 374 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.
64 queries taking 0.2964 seconds, 374 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.
Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 26, 2014 09:10 AM (yz6yg)