April 23, 2014

Camille Paglia: Get Rid of the National Drinking Age
— Ace

I guess so.

This is one of those things that a lot of people oppose -- whether because of the affront to federalism, or the juvenilzation of adults, or on basic liberty grounds -- but such people suspect there is too strong a lobby for the other side, or, maybe, too much inertia about it, and so while people may agree this is kinda bullshit, they won't actually take any action to change it.

Paglia makes most of her case on culture -- that drinking is part of it.


Learning how to drink responsibly is a basic lesson in growing up — as it is in wine-drinking France or in Germany, with its family-oriented beer gardens and festivals. Wine was built into my own Italian-American upbringing, where children were given sips of my grandfather’s home-made wine. This civilized practice descends from antiquity. Beer was a nourishing food in Egypt and Mesopotamia, and wine was identified with the life force in Greece and Rome: In vino veritas (in wine, truth). Wine as a sacred symbol of unity and regeneration remains in the Christian Communion service. Virginia Woolf wrote that wine with a fine meal lights a “subtle and subterranean glow, which is the rich yellow flame of rational intercourse.”

What this cruel 1984 law did is deprive young people of safe spaces where they could happily drink cheap beer, socialize, chat, and flirt in a free but controlled public environment. Hence in the 1980s we immediately got the scourge of crude binge drinking at campus fraternity keg parties, cut off from the adult world. Women in that boorish free-for-all were suddenly fighting off date rape. Club drugs — Ecstasy, methamphetamine, ketamine (a veterinary tranquilizer) — surged at raves for teenagers and on the gay male circuit scene.

...

As a libertarian, I support the decriminalization of marijuana, but there are many problems with pot. From my observation, pot may be great for jazz musicians and Beat poets, but it saps energy and will-power and can produce physiological feminization in men.

I like her point that there are limits to the degree can actually control what it deems "Bad Behavior." Forbid 18 year olds from drinking, and they'll turn to more easily portable, more easily concealable mind-altering substances like pot, pills, or worse.

Posted by: Ace at 09:44 AM | Comments (324)
Post contains 399 words, total size 2 kb.

1 First

Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 23, 2014 09:45 AM (tf9Ne)

2 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 09:45 AM (PYAXX)

3 This post brought to you by Val U Rite.



Posted by: EC at April 23, 2014 09:45 AM (GQ8sn)

4 Yay! New thread smell!

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 09:46 AM (PYAXX)

5 If you are old enough to enlist and die, you are old enough to drink

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 23, 2014 09:46 AM (nTgAI)

6 I love the smell of Val-U-Rite at the crack of 12:45.

Posted by: steveegg at April 23, 2014 09:47 AM (o44nj)

7 We're not euroweenies. Is that so hard to understand? They actually have a lot more social pressures that keep people in line. In the US -- not so much...

Posted by: Sir Pug A Lott at April 23, 2014 09:47 AM (8c12T)

8 French teenagers don't really drive much, do they?

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 09:47 AM (Yv7Xy)

9 woops, grabs ace's tax reciepts out of the garbage and straightens them in a nice stack on the desk. checks out my own belly button in innocence.

Posted by: willow at April 23, 2014 09:47 AM (nqBYe)

10 Raise your hand if you have EVER had trouble actually procuring alcohol at any time in your life once you decided that you wanted some. And there you are. P.S.: MADD is a freaking cult.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 23, 2014 09:48 AM (659DL)

11

From my observation, pot may be great for jazz musicians and Beat poets, but it saps energy and will-power and can produce physiological feminization in men.

 

And isn't this in many ways the story...

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 09:48 AM (JtwS4)

12

French teenagers don't really drive much, do they?

 

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 01:47 PM (Yv7Xy)

 

They prefer to apply flame jobs on their cars the old-fashioned way - with fire.

Posted by: steveegg at April 23, 2014 09:48 AM (o44nj)

13 I could see a minimum age for purchase from the store, such as no 4 year olds buying a keg of Heineken, but getting rid of the "underage drinking" charges for the most part.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 09:48 AM (APuJ7)

14 Choom choom choom.

Posted by: Boss Moss at April 23, 2014 09:48 AM (LJ7Ze)

15 Side bar: Peace Process Dead! Great, now let's bomb them!

Posted by: Sir Pug A Lott at April 23, 2014 09:48 AM (8c12T)

16 Beer was once considered a "soft drink" and, yes, kids drank it, too. I largely agree that the drinking age should be abolished (or, at most, set at the State level). However, I feel about alcohol the same way I feel about pot- 1) You should be held responsible- as though you had planned it- for anything you do while drunk. 2) If you ruin your life because of booze, not one dime of taxpayer money should be used on you.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 09:49 AM (PYAXX)

17

So then she must agree that children should be associated and indoctrinated with firearms along with their bottles of booze then?

The best way to teach children responsibility is to demonstrate it as an adult.

Posted by: maddogg at April 23, 2014 09:49 AM (xWW96)

18 From my observation, pot may be great for jazz musicians and Beat poets, but it saps energy and will-power and can produce physiological feminization in men. To be fair to the pot, I couldn't get it up for Camile, either.

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 09:49 AM (Yv7Xy)

19 I can state positively, absolutely, from great experience, that campus binge drinking before 1984 was not crude.

Posted by: gwb at April 23, 2014 09:49 AM (FXe7b)

20  From my observation, pot may be great for jazz musicians and Beat poets, but it saps energy and will-power and can produce physiological feminization in men.


To be fair to the pot, I couldn't get it up for Camile, either.

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 01:49 PM (Yv7Xy)

 

heh

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (nTgAI)

21 "Side bar: Peace Process Dead! Great, now let's bomb them! Posted by: Sir Pug A Lott at April 23, 2014 01:48 PM"

Say, John....why the long face?

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (knoK7)

22 It should be returned to the States where it belongs.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (T2V/1)

23 It's all about highway money, right? That's the tool the Feds used to force it.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (ZPrif)

24 P.S.: MADD is a freaking cult. --- Agreed. One of my good friends from HS had an older brother who was killed by a drunk. His mother seems to have poured her grief into MADD, as he ended up being one of the local poster-boys for MADD considering he was a former LSU football player. I don't mind giving donations to something in his memory, but I'm not giving MADD a thin dime.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (APuJ7)

25 I'd rather get rid of the Speed Limits.

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (Yv7Xy)

26

We're not euroweenies. Is that so hard to understand?

 

I would love an a la carte culture, mixing the best of Europe and the US.  Keep our guns and rugged individualism.  Import their approach to food and wine, topless beaches and co-ed saunas.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (JtwS4)

27 Improved headline:  Get Rid of the National *.*

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at April 23, 2014 09:50 AM (L02KD)

28 As Insty often says, if the GOP would get behind this, they'd destroy the advantage the Dems have among the young.

But, they won't.

Stupid Party does stupid like fish in water.

I dare say you'd find more support for a return to Prohibition amongst the GOP than you'd see for eliminating the drinking age.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 09:51 AM (VjL9S)

29 P.S.: MADD is a freaking cult. This. MADD is horrible, angry people.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 23, 2014 09:51 AM (DRG6e)

30 Let's see you are 18 and can do the following: Marry Bleed in a war Enter contractual obligations Vote for the TFG Serve on a jury But you can't buy a drink? fuck you.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at April 23, 2014 09:51 AM (HVff2)

31 i dunno, i'm not sure i agree, although arming service members to go protect the country, yet saying the same are too young to drink in many states is rather strange to me. still think pot AS a Non smoker seems less harmful than a heavy drinker. yeah i know i'm pretty isolated in that thought.

Posted by: willow at April 23, 2014 09:51 AM (nqBYe)

32 I agree with this.  Allowing children to drink in a family setting is better than having them be introduced to it far from home with strangers.  When overseas, I don't have a problem with my teenage daughter having a drink at the dinner table.  She's not going to get silly in front of her old man and I can shut her down if she did.  She knows what alcohol is like and I hope she is less likely to wind up passed out on the floor or worse at some college party later on. 

Posted by: DavidJ at April 23, 2014 09:51 AM (ud6Ft)

33 Abolish the Feral Government.

Posted by: Boss Moss at April 23, 2014 09:51 AM (LJ7Ze)

34 As a Charter Member of DAMM.... Drunks Against Mad Mothers.... I approve this message...

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (84gbM)

35 The Middle East Dream team together again!  Hamas and the PLO.

Hey Jon Cary what could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (a26oX)

36 I'd rather get rid of the Speed Limits.  Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 01:50 PM (Yv7Xy)

I thought we did!!??!

Posted by: Some Kid in a Beat Up Civic on the New Jersey Turnpike [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (6T8Ay)

37 From my observation, pot may be great for jazz musicians and Beat poets, but it saps energy and will-power and can produce physiological feminization in men. Chronic marijuana use is linked to mental illness including psychosis in several studies. Marijuana use in younger people impairs brain formation. Marijuana use is strongly linked with a reduction in logical thinking and an increase in emotional thinking.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (J79eW)

38 From the link: It is absurd and unjust that young Americans can vote, marry, enter contracts, and serve in the military at 18 but cannot buy an alcoholic drink in a bar or restaurant. I agree. To me, it's always been ridiculous that you could get shot up for your nation but couldn't toast your fallen comrades if you were under 21.

Posted by: pookysgirl at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (9+kKl)

39 I don't mind giving donations to something in his memory, but I'm not giving MADD a thin dime.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 01:50 PM (APuJ7)



MADD won't be happy until there's Prohibition 2:  absolutely no boogaloo

Posted by: Captain Hate at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (4VWty)

40 I dare say you'd find more support for a return to Prohibition amongst the GOP than you'd see for eliminating the drinking age. Maybe the GOPe, but I think most grass-roots Conservatives would say at least, "If you're old enough to volunteer for the military, you're old enough to drink."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (PYAXX)

41 7 We're not euroweenies. Is that so hard to understand? They actually have a lot more social pressures that keep people in line. In the US -- not so much... But a statewide drinking age makes a lot more sense. I agree that no drinking age doesn't make sense in most states. In Canada it's 18 or 19, depending on the province. Contrary to popular belief, in most states it's legal for kids to drink in the home under parent/guardian supervision.

Posted by: AmishDude at April 23, 2014 09:52 AM (T0NGe)

42 My dad was a high school teacher when the drinking age was lowered to 18.  It didn't work out very well - students getting drunk at lunch.  The problem wasn't so much that the 18 year olds were drinking but the 18 year olds were buying for the 14 year olds.


Intellectually it is a nice argument to lower the drinking age to 18, but there are consequences that have to be acknowledged first.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Ragey. My Friends at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (y9JTC)

43 I'd prefer moving the voting age up to 21, but whatever.

Posted by: AMDG, who will never really graduate at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (eFytx)

44 17 The best way to teach children responsibility is to demonstrate it as an adult this

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (krmE0)

45 Ouch. That swipe at pot wasn't exactly subtle. So then, beer is from Mars, pot is from Venus? /looks at the delivery systems ...OK, I freakin' give up. /sticks "Friday" on an eleven-hour loop and departs

Posted by: Brother Cavil at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (rt3TY)

46 To be fair to the pot, I couldn't get it up for Camile, either. Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 01:49 PM (Yv7Xy) Well, she feels the same way.

Posted by: Camille's Flannel Shirt at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (HVff2)

47 The last time we heard from Camille Paglia was back in early 2010, I think, and she was lamenting obama's failures to which she blamed all the incompetent people around obama, not obama nor his shitty policies. Then Camille announced she was taking a break from politics and writing. And here she is with this very important and pertinent issue that concerns us all. Good frickin grief.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (fW9N0)

48 Side bar: Peace Process Dead! Great, now let's bomb them! - The incredible arrogance of Barky, Hillary!, and Kerry. They thought they were going to walk in their with hearts and flowers and a bunch of kill crazy lunatics who have learned their craft over the centuries will suddenly give up violence and suddenly become sane. A far more practical approach is to wait for the second coming of Jesus.

Posted by: WalrusRex at April 23, 2014 09:53 AM (XUKZU)

49 Let's see you are 18 and can do the following: Marry Bleed in a war Enter contractual obligations Vote for the TFG Serve on a jury But you can't buy a drink? fuck you. VOTE and according to the usual suspects, make adult decisions about the unborn.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (659DL)

50 Alabama changed the drinking age to 18 just a couple of months before I turned 21. Not that it made a whole lot of difference.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b][/u] at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (0HooB)

51 Move up the voting age?  How about proof of employment?  A W-2.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (a26oX)

52 "Learning how to drink responsibly is a basic lesson in growing up" stopped reading right there. What in idiot. A basic lesson in growing up is how to shoot a free throw. Or manage a checkbook. Or talk to that cute little brunette in math class. Fucking asshole libs.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (x3YFz)

53 Casting a Paul on American Strength http://natl.re/1eUHhka via @NRO When it comes to defense and foreign policy, Senator Paul is a menace. Worse, just as in some of his father’s rants, the Kentuckian’s pronouncements bend toward wacky conspiracy theories of the “blame America first” variety. It recently emerged, for example, that just two years ago, he still was trafficking in the Buchananite fantasy that United States trade policy made it somehow culpable for Japan’s and Germany’s “anger,” which led to World War II. The latest video to resurface is from a 2009 speech at Western Kentucky University, unearthed by David Corn at Mother Jones. In it, Senator Paul peddles the old leftist theory — one that is hideously insulting to the motives and character of former vice president Dick Cheney — that the decision to go to war in Iraq in 2003 was driven by the desire to increase the profits of the Halliburton oil-field-services company that Cheney once led.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (ZPrif)

54 Wine was built into my own Italian-American upbringing, where children were given sips of my grandfatherÂ’s home-made wine. That was part of my upbringing too, and all my siblings. None of us grew up to be heavy drinkers.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (7ObY1)

55 I'd prefer moving the voting age up to 21, but whatever. Link it to a civics test, like citizenship. Fail, you can try again in two years. Three strikes, no franchise for you. Standards, bitchez.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (rt3TY)

56 As Insty often says, if the GOP would get behind this, they'd destroy the advantage the Dems have among the young. But, they won't. Stupid Party does stupid like fish in water. I dare say you'd find more support for a return to Prohibition amongst the GOP than you'd see for eliminating the drinking age. Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 01:51 PM (VjL9S) ------------------------------------- Yes, please. Let's get into an intoxicants race with the Democrats. For The Children. Because wasted 18 year olds are a natural constituency for conservatives. On the other hand, might as well let them get fucking pickled 24/7 so they can enjoy the ride all the way down to the bottom, right?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 09:54 AM (CJjw5)

57 P.S.: MADD is a freaking cult.
========
They specifically exploit mothers and place them in "leadership" so as to rebut any criticism the only why leftist know how: Shut Up! How dare you say anything bad about a mother who lost her child??

They are neo-Prohibitionists who are more than willing to lie about the benefits of a lowered BAC for DUIs to push their agenda.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 09:55 AM (VjL9S)

58 If you ruin your life because of booze, not one dime of taxpayer money should be used on you. Yeah, I see that happening about 30 minutes after the burning times start, and not before.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 23, 2014 09:55 AM (J79eW)

59 18 is reasonable.  No limit whatsoever is not.  Do we really want a country where any 10 year old can help themselves to a cold Bud from a vending machine?

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 23, 2014 09:55 AM (WtVhX)

60 Sooth, she also discussed at length how Palin was treated . and the hypocrisy of it all.I dunno i like her even though i don't always agree.

Posted by: willow at April 23, 2014 09:55 AM (nqBYe)

61 I'd prefer moving the voting age up to 21, but whatever.

Posted by: AMDG, who will never really graduate at April 23, 2014 01:53 PM (eFytx)

 

I am thinking more like 27

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 23, 2014 09:55 AM (nTgAI)

62 hahahaha @ "As a libertarian..." Camille Paglia is one of those "libertarians" that agree with 90% of obama's radical leftist agenda. She's a libertarian who likes to make rules, in other words.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 09:55 AM (fW9N0)

63 I don't object to a lower drinking age. My 18yo drank while we were overseas. (I just got back from Dublin and London.) A lower drinking age just means that 14yos don't have any trouble binge drinking every weekend on the streets. They have a real problem with that over there. Maybe in France or Italy, the culture discourages drunkenness, but it's definitely not the case in the UK or IRE. Right now, the US age is 21, and no one blinks when underage college kids drink. But if it's legal for college kids, then no one blinks when a high schooler does it. If it's legal for high schoolers, then no one blinks when a middle schooler does it.

Posted by: VKI at April 23, 2014 09:56 AM (qySNZ)

64 This is the same broad that said she was hoarding pocket knives on Carson to trade to teenage boys for favors?

Posted by: Boss Moss at April 23, 2014 09:56 AM (LJ7Ze)

65 As a libertarian...

Oh, please. This silly bint voted for Obama twice and thinks socialized medicine is a swell idea, and then calls herself a libertarian??

Yeah, and I'm the queen of Romania.

Posted by: OregonMuse at April 23, 2014 09:56 AM (I8YZX)

66 <<"The age 21 rule sets the United States apart from all advanced Western nations, and it has pushed kids toward pills and other anti-social behavior.... Congress was stampeded into this puritanical law by Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), who with all good intentions were wrongly intruding into an area of personal choice exactly as did the hymn-singing 19th-century Temperance crusaders....">>

Women...is there anything they don't ruin with their "good intentions"? Always trying to get others to change...

Posted by: SGT York at April 23, 2014 09:56 AM (KIeJ9)

67 51 Move up the voting age? How about proof of employment? A W-2. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 23, 2014 01:54 PM (a26oX) Didn't our beloved leader say something about skin in the game. Here is the chance.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at April 23, 2014 09:56 AM (HVff2)

68

My dad was a high school teacher when the drinking age was lowered to 18. It didn't work out very well - students getting drunk at lunch. The problem wasn't so much that the 18 year olds were drinking but the 18 year olds were buying for the 14 year olds.

 

Intellectually it is a nice argument to lower the drinking age to 18, but there are consequences that have to be acknowledged first.

 

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Ragey. My Friends at April 23, 2014 01:53 PM (y9JTC)

 

So allow more 5-year-olds to get into first grade instead of requiring they be 6 before the school year starts.  That way, they graduate when they're 17.

Posted by: steveegg at April 23, 2014 09:56 AM (o44nj)

69 Move up the voting age? How about proof of employment? A W-2.>>

A tax return that shows you paid in more than you got back.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (tf9Ne)

70 I think I drank more at 11 than I did at 21 once you hit the magic age its just not as fun

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (krmE0)

71 How about Free Pussy for teenage boys? Lipo and tit-jobs for the girls? Vouchers for whores and plastic surgery for all our young'uns, because catering to their basest impulses is the way we teach them about personal accountability. EOJ 2016: Because Fuck EVERYTHING.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (CJjw5)

72 This is a pure federalism issue for me. MA wants to make the drinking age 37? Fine. South Dakota wants to make it 18? Okay then.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD/Orion Death Star 2016 at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (mf5HN)

73 Sooth, she also discussed at length how Palin was treated . and the hypocrisy of it all.I dunno i like her even though i don't always agree.

Posted by: willow at April 23, 2014 01:55 PM (nqBYe)



Camille is a mixed bag but she's a lot closer to being an 'ette than not.  Plus she defended Rush when the JEF began calling him out.

Posted by: Captain Hate at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (4VWty)

74 Keep our guns and rugged individualism. Import their approach to food and wine, topless beaches and co-ed saunas ---- Okay, but let's also keep our attitudes about bathing, body hair removal, and speedos, if we're having the whole beach-and-sauna conversation.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (Yz5ZM)

75 Did the numbering here just go funny?  Was a post deleted?

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (WtVhX)

76 22--- It should be returned to the States where it belongs. Posted by: Vic at April 23, 2014 01:50 PM (T2V/1) ------------------ THIS. None of the Feds business. NONE.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (dfYL9)

77 The latest video to resurface is from a 2009 speech at Western Kentucky University, unearthed by David Corn at Mother Jones. Lulz. I know you have a hard-on for Ron and Rand but geez..

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (fW9N0)

78 On the other hand, might as well let them get fucking pickled 24/7 so they can enjoy the ride all the way down to the bottom, right?  Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 01:54 PM (CJjw5)

For intellectual consistency sake, I'd just raise everything to 21.

Marriage
Draft/enlistment
Enter into contracts
Vote
jury duty

...and so on. 

Because I haven't yet found the 18-year old who was mature enough to do any of the above....including enlist.

Posted by: Some Kid in a Beat Up Civic on the New Jersey Turnpike [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (6T8Ay)

79 Not only is the policy objectionable, but the way in which it is enforced is especially pernicious. By attaching the policy to highway funds, it puts the policy beyond the reach of the courts, at least as far what the courts themselves are willing to tackle. If the feds had just tried to impose the policy by a direct law, they would have been slapped down by the courts. But, by using the weaselly method of making highway funds contingent on states enacting the required policy, the courts take the position that the states are always free to enact their preferred policy and do without the funds. Of course, the states would not retain the tax money pried out of their citizens; that would still flow into the federal coffers, to be redistributed to all the other states (at least that which didn't stick to federal fingers).

The Leviathan must be defeated.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (IN7k+)

80 I dare say you'd find more support for a return to Prohibition amongst the GOP than you'd see for eliminating the drinking age.

I'd imagine the Obama Administration has given most Republicans new respect for drinking.

Posted by: Ian S. at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (B/VB5)

81 There isn't really a binge drinking problem on college campuses so much as there are a lot of pussies who can't handle their booze.

Posted by: mugiwara at April 23, 2014 09:57 AM (W7ffl)

82

Women...is there anything they don't ruin with their "good intentions"? Always trying to get others to change...

 

Posted by: SGT York at April 23, 2014 01:56 PM (KIeJ9)

 

Tell me about it.  Bitch set me up with the fruit.

Posted by: Adam at April 23, 2014 09:58 AM (o44nj)

83

Fucking asshole libs.

 

She's a libertarian.  And learning to drink responsibly is an important life lesson.  Kids are gonna fledge and if they've had some supervised experience with it they're less likely to lose their shit.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 09:58 AM (JtwS4)

84 Raise your hand if you have EVER had trouble actually procuring alcohol at any time in your life once you decided that you wanted some. But the question is where. In college, you can only have it in house parties that can get busted. One thing I don't want to hear, though, is the "wonder drug that works wonders" approach that the pot advocates take. Lowering the drinking age won't lead to a sober utopia of bored and cynical hipsters who find alcohol to be declasse. There's plenty of binge drinking at colleges in the UK.

Posted by: AmishDude at April 23, 2014 09:58 AM (T0NGe)

85 Yeah, I see that happening about 30 minutes after the burning times start, and not before. Oh, I know it won't happen. That's why I'm so vociferously against Pot legalization. It's also why I'm on the fence about the drinking age. Frankly, I don't have a problem with 18 being the drinking age- with some caveats that others have mentioned above. Whatever the drinking age, though, I *do* believe it's a State issue, not a Federal one.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 09:58 AM (PYAXX)

86 Did the numbering here just go funny? Was a post deleted? Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 23, 2014 01:57 PM (WtVhX)

TB3K never sleeps.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 09:58 AM (6T8Ay)

87 jon gabriel @exjon Breaking: The party that mocked Reagan's age & Dole's age & McCain's age & all those "old, white men" now claim Hillary's age is off-limits. Razor @hale_razor 2008: McCain is so OLD 2016: Hillary makes a super grandma!

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at April 23, 2014 09:58 AM (ZPrif)

88 Oh, please. This silly bint voted for Obama twice




I think she voted for some libertarian in 2012.

Posted by: Captain Hate at April 23, 2014 09:59 AM (4VWty)

89 Insty has been arguing that the GOP should be advocating this for a while. I'm with him. I don't know if it will win over any converts, but it is the right thing to do. There are so many arguments for lowering which Paglia provides, but ultimately I just want to push back on these original nanny-staters.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 09:59 AM (gmeXX)

90

I'd imagine the Obama Administration has given most Republicans new respect for drinking.

 

Posted by: Ian S. at April 23, 2014 01:57 PM (B/VB5)

 

I'll drink to that.

Posted by: steveegg at April 23, 2014 09:59 AM (o44nj)

91 Captain Hate, yeah, she seems to stay on her convictions mostly. and seems old school liberal which i used to in the past actually get along with.

Posted by: willow at April 23, 2014 09:59 AM (nqBYe)

92 Intellectually it is a nice argument to lower the drinking age to 18, but there are consequences that have to be acknowledged first.>>

Yes like the more common usage of pot instead. Dealers don't check ID.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 23, 2014 09:59 AM (tf9Ne)

93 Either that, or raise the age to 26, the new 'all grown up' age where you have to buy your own insurance. And I do mean have to.
 
semi joking. I want the age lowered back to 18. At 18 you can sign legally enforceable contracts, vote, enlist in the military, marry -- All the accoutrements of being a legal entity, except drinking or entering bars. At a bare minimum, take out the federal blackmail role in determining the age and leave it to the states to decide.

Posted by: GnuBreed at April 23, 2014 10:00 AM (wNF3N)

94 I'd rather we got rid of MADD.  Bunch of fascist, power-hungry, bossy, neo-prohibitionist nicklefuckers.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at April 23, 2014 10:00 AM (zF6Iw)

95 I flew down to Georgia to meet my son - a Ranger in the 1st Ranger Battalion - after his first tour of duty in Iraq where he had fought hard combat in Fallujah and Mosul. It was then that we both realized that he couldn't have a beer with me in a Savannah restaurant because he was only 20.

Posted by: RD Walker at April 23, 2014 10:00 AM (ImpgP)

96 I dare say you'd find more support for a return to Prohibition amongst the GOP than you'd see for eliminating the drinking age. Given the fact that the business wing of the GOP is making so many inroads in the area of amnesty, I'd think a lot of them would be interested in more patrons at their various bars/restaurants.

Posted by: AmishDude at April 23, 2014 10:00 AM (T0NGe)

97 With 26 yo still covered by ObamaCare and living in their parents' basements, I'm not sure 18s  are ready to handle likker.  Too many young people getting killed on the road as it is.

Posted by: mrp at April 23, 2014 10:00 AM (JBggj)

98 And learning to drink responsibly is an important life lesson. Kids are gonna fledge and if they've had some supervised experience with it they're less likely to lose their shit.   Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 01:58 PM (JtwS4)

I'd agree with that.  It's every other kid's parents I'm worried about.

Because if there's one thing we've learned over the last 7 years, it's that this country is full of children above the age of 25 who, in turn, suck at raising children.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (6T8Ay)

99 I've always felt that's the national drinking age unnecessarily elevates drinking to undue importance and results in a lot of underage binge drinking. And this is coming from someone who rarely drinks, doesn't understand the fascination with alcohol and is not a fan of drunkenness. I do think, though, that getting rid of the drinking age at this time would result in lots of craziness by youth. But eventually they would get over it.

Posted by: Chique at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (r+7wo)

100 I'm all for this. Come to think of it, we should get rid of the National Sex-Offender Registry, too!

Posted by: Roman Polanski at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (Yv7Xy)

101 You can't purchase a firearm at 18, but it's ok to slam a bottle of tequilla and beat the shit out of your girlfriend. Welcome to liberalism.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (x3YFz)

102 EOJ 2016: Because Fuck EVERYTHING.
========
Why not? Nothing else seems to be working.

Found this earlier today:
"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves." -Henry David Thoreau (1817-62)

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (VjL9S)

103 Move up the voting age? How about proof of employment? A W-2.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 23, 2014 01:54 PM (a26oX)

Oh yeah, TERRIFIC idea.  Dems in red states will just use regulations to put a stop to conservative heavy industries (lumber, oil, coal, trucking, etc.), and put enough of their enemies out of work to neutralize their ability to vote.

Great-ass fucking idea.  Sign me up.

/

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (WtVhX)

104 92 Intellectually it is a nice argument to lower the drinking age to 18, but there are consequences that have to be acknowledged first.>> Yes like the more common usage of pot instead. Dealers don't check ID. Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 23, 2014 01:59 PM (tf9Ne) So what is the legal age to get pot in CO and CA?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (HVff2)

105 how much money is MADD worth these days?

Posted by: Vote Lord Humungus 2016 at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (HEa5q)

106 I just got here and haven't read all the comments, but in Wisconsin the type of thing she is proposing already exists. A parent can serve alcohol to their own minor children, and these children can also drink alcohol even in restaurants as long as their parents are with them and give consent.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 23, 2014 10:01 AM (oMKp3)

107 When I was young was 18 in my State. Of course i don't want anyone else to enjoy what I did.

Posted by: pat at April 23, 2014 10:02 AM (KCg4m)

108 10 Raise your hand if you have EVER had trouble actually procuring alcohol at any time in your life once you decided that you wanted some. And there you are. P.S.: MADD is a freaking cult. Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 23, 2014 01:48 PM (659DL) Same goes with pot, actually. Really, there's just no point to banning stuff that makes people happy, if only temporarily. Politicians do it to look like they're Doing Something but it's pointless. Here's what we should do: Legalize. Everything. Put the money spent on interdiction into treatment. But, if you refuse treatment but stay on the weed/smack/insert drug here then you lose all claim to government assistance.

Posted by: joncelli at April 23, 2014 10:02 AM (RD7QR)

109 At this point I agree. The Federal government should stop doing everything it does.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 23, 2014 10:02 AM (1YJrc)

110 MADD is a perfect example of an advocacy group that exists solely for the sake of existing. They accomplished what they set out to do. Blood alcohol limits have been lowered to the point that even a slight buzz is enough to get your ass thrown in jail. Punishments are harsher. Enforcement is strict. Public awareness is high. Like most such organizations though, they won't simply declare victory after having won. Instead they reach and overreach, expanding their mandate far beyond original intentions. In the case of MADD they've become a neo-prohibitionist group. Want to change the law to allow beer and wine be sold in the supermarket like many states have been doing for decades? Prepare for caterwauling from MADD. Want to repeal the blue law banning alcohol sales on Sunday so people watching the big game can drink at home instead of driving to the nearest sports bar? Nope, not if MADD has their way.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 23, 2014 10:02 AM (SY2Kh)

111 So allow more 5-year-olds to get into first grade instead of requiring they be 6 before the school year starts. That way, they graduate when they're 17. I see a problem with your plan. One word: sports. Parents are starting their kids a little later so they can be bigger, faster, stronger.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 23, 2014 10:02 AM (J79eW)

112

... and as I've said before, some of you will shit yourselves blind if we actually return to a Republic.

 

State XYZ legalizes pot and lowers drinking age to 18, and you'll be boarding the buses to travel three states away and protest.

 

Screw it ... Dirty Deeds, DONE WITH SHEEP !!!

Posted by: ScoggDog at April 23, 2014 10:03 AM (ABZ+u)

113 Legalize all drugs and sell them cheap. Sure you'll reduce the population by a couple of % points but what the hell, these are probably the losers who'll cost us money anyways

Posted by: NativeNH at April 23, 2014 10:03 AM (9DGNE)

114 97 Too many young people getting killed on the road as it is. im not sure of the FBI statistics and i'm still on my second cup of coffee so too lazy to check it but most of my DUI busts over the years involved people around 30...not 21 or 22 I think lowering the age won't affect the youngins getting killed that much

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:03 AM (krmE0)

115 I also seem to remember that in Wisconsin you can purchase beer or wine in a restaurant without your parents present, if you are under age but have a military ID. I'd have to check.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 23, 2014 10:03 AM (oMKp3)

116 1) You should be held responsible- as though you had planned it- for anything you do while drunk. 2) If you ruin your life because of booze, not one dime of taxpayer money should be used on you. Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 01:49 PM (PYAXX) I also strongly endorse these points.

Posted by: Chique at April 23, 2014 10:03 AM (r+7wo)

117 Intellectually it is a nice argument to lower the drinking age to 18, but there are consequences that have to be acknowledged first. ---- Just as there were consequences to raising it. Bottom line Paglia is right, it is just stupid that you can fight and vote but not drink, it enlarged the federal government by allowing them the power to dictate to the states, and it invades on the family (if I want to have a beer with my 16 year old son at an establishment, why should I not be able to)?

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:03 AM (gmeXX)

118 I dunno. My dad taught me to handle firearms safely when I was a kid. Taught me how to shoot, hunt and fish. And let me have a beer now and then to celebrate a successful hunting or fishing trip. Always with a wink and a "don't say anything to your mom." Made me feel grown up and that my dad was proud of me and trusted me. Between that and sips of grampa's and all the uncles homemade wine I should probably be an alky. But I'm not.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 23, 2014 10:04 AM (7ObY1)

119 We have a DAMM chapter her in N.O., Drunks Against Mad Mothers.

Posted by: Javems at April 23, 2014 10:04 AM (nTgAI)

120 I do think, though, that getting rid of the drinking age at this time would result in lots of craziness by youth. But eventually they would get over it. Posted by: Chique at April 23, 2014 02:01 PM (r+7wo) it's not that simple. Alcohol removes inhibitions. Meaning that if you tend toward being violent, adding alcohol makes it worse. Now lets throw in the 18 year old hormonal madness. Are you seeing the recipe for abject chaos here? I am.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:04 AM (x3YFz)

121 And I am so stealing. DAMM

Posted by: NativeNH at April 23, 2014 10:04 AM (9DGNE)

122 I remember being allowed a small sip of wine or beer as a kid in the late '60s.
Sometimes my dad would make a Daiquiri, and I'd get a taste of that, too.

I'm Italian and Portuguese, and alcohol wasn't a big deal in our house, so while I drank at parties in high school and college, I rarely drank enough to get drunk.

Posted by: Reno_Dave at April 23, 2014 10:04 AM (giOah)

123 Camille is a mixed bag but she's a lot closer to being an 'ette than not. Plus she defended Rush when the JEF began calling him out. Posted by: Captain Hate at April 23, 2014 01:57 PM (4VWty) I remember an article by her from about 10 years ago and the gist of part of it (it had a rambling Peggy Noonan vibe) was that society needed to be wary about male homosexuality because too much of it tends to destroy civilizations, a la Rome.

Posted by: AmishDude at April 23, 2014 10:05 AM (T0NGe)

124 Screw it ... Dirty Deeds, DONE WITH SHEEP !!! --- We've got this one in the pipeline.

Posted by: Soon To Be Independent Scotland at April 23, 2014 10:05 AM (APuJ7)

125 You can't purchase a firearm at 18 Uh, that depends on the state. You can purchase a handgun at 18 in WI.

Posted by: GMan at April 23, 2014 10:05 AM (sxq57)

126 Club drugs — Ecstasy, methamphetamine, ketamine (a veterinary tranquilizer) — surged at raves for teenagers and on the gay male circuit scene.


My cousin owns several successful bars/clubs in SF. He's selling the most recently opened one, a gay dance club, because it doesn't make any money. It gets plenty crowded, problem is, the gay guys like to pop a few pills and grind each other all night. Nobody buys any booze, all he sees in revenue is the cover charge. I'm not sure lowering the drinking age would make any difference on this one.

Posted by: mugiwara at April 23, 2014 10:05 AM (W7ffl)

127 oh, as far as MADD and youngins DUIing.... if an assclown wants to get smashed and wrap their car around a tree...then fuck them...enjoy the wheelchair its the innocent bastard they hit that I care about

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:06 AM (krmE0)

128 At 18 you can sign legally enforceable contracts, vote, enlist in the military, marry -- All the accoutrements of being a legal entity, except drinking or entering bars. Or casinos.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 23, 2014 10:06 AM (YIZv0)

129 I'm in favor of lowering the drinking age to 18. That said, I'm dubious about this idea that raising the drinking age led to the "binge drinking" phenomenon, which used to just be referred to as plain old drinking. "Binge drinking" popped up as a thing in the 80s and was part of a larger trend during that time toward moral panic nonsense. I can't find the citation at the moment, but I recall that "binge" has gradually been defined downward until now a "binge" is five or more drinks during a particular "session" of drinking, which is ridiculous. Sit down to watch the early NFL game and the late game with a six pack and, presto, you're a raging alcoholic. Or, more accurately, a useful statistic. Those pushing the "binge drinking" narrative simply ratcheted the number downward until their numbers were where they wanted them.

Posted by: Brewdog at April 23, 2014 10:06 AM (ZgUuK)

130 As to this part of her point: "What this cruel 1984 law did is deprive young people of safe spaces where they could happily drink cheap beer, socialize, chat, and flirt in a free but controlled public environment. Hence in the 1980s we immediately got the scourge of crude binge drinking at campus fraternity keg parties, cut off from the adult world. Women in that boorish free-for-all were suddenly fighting off date rape." Is she delusional? Does she think those things didn't happen prior to the 80s? Then she's historically ignorant.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 23, 2014 10:06 AM (oMKp3)

131 You can't purchase a firearm at 18 Uh, that depends on the state. You can purchase a handgun at 18 in WI. Posted by: GMan at April 23, 2014 02:05 PM (sxq57) Sorry. Most states it's 18 for long guns, 21 for handguns.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:06 AM (x3YFz)

132 99 I've always felt that's the national drinking age unnecessarily elevates drinking to undue importance and results in a lot of underage binge drinking.
=========
And it contributes to the ever expanding infantilization of our culture.

Are they adults at, what, 18, 21, 26--when?

At what point do we treat them as adults?


Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (VjL9S)

133 Just return the power to the states, then let the states decide. I'd still prefer 18, but some states had a 21 age before the federal government mandated it. And if a state wants a 16 or 17 age, so be it.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (gmeXX)

134 it's not that simple. Alcohol removes inhibitions. Meaning that if you tend toward being violent, adding alcohol makes it worse. Now lets throw in the 18 year old hormonal madness. Are you seeing the recipe for abject chaos here? I am. Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 02:04 PM (x3YFz) 1- That sounds almost exactly like the arguments of the gun-grabbing crowd against Concealed Carry: "Oh, people might be irresponsible! We have to ban [whatever] for the children!" 2- It's funny that I never heard, from anyone, of massive problems back when the drinking age *was* 18.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (PYAXX)

135 Let me check with the Muslim Brotherhood.... I agree, there should be no National Drinking Age.

Posted by: Barry O at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (FcR7P)

136 Are you seeing the recipe for abject chaos here? I am. Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 02:04 PM (x3YFz no to a beer? but go ahead and shoot a muzzie overseas? hmmm...... If you can't drink at 18 then you shouldn't be able to do other "adult" things. For once I would like to see some consistency out of my country. Is that too much to ask for? Obviously, yes.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (HVff2)

137 While I agree I am in awe of the fluidity of minds that want to eliminate the drinking age, legalize drugs and keep tabakky and e-cigs verboten.... Part of why I am shifting to Libertarian/Anarchist on intoxicant matters. We've pretty much ceded "doing mighty things" as the American identity so we're less dangerous stupified as a people.

Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (TE35l)

138 I'm way past the age of giving a damn about this issue, but I do remember well what was going on, what happened, back when I did care.  BTW, yes, as as earlier poster said, it is, and always has been, very easy for underage kids to get their hands on alcohol if they want to.  God knows we did when I was that age.

In any case, back in the early 1970s, around the same time the voting age was lowered to 18, the legal drinking age was lowered to 18 as well.  After the Feds passed a law in 1984 threatening to cut 10% of highway funds to any state that refused to move the minimum drinking age back to 21, that ended this experiment. 

Apparently the problem was that after the drinking age was lowered, a significantly larger number of alcohol-related accidents and deaths began to occur, along with kids beginning to drink at an even earlier age than before, etc.  You get the picture.

I was around back then, and yes, this is pretty much what happened, like it or not.  It's human nature.  It does not matter if it is the drinking age, or legalizing drugs, speed limits or whatever, there will always be an increase in the number of assholes out there who will abuse the privilege, and damage other people around them in the process.  The damaged segment of society complains to the powers-that-be (squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that), the powers-that-be get tired of the squeaking, and are seen "doing something" about the problem, whether it's jacking the drinking age back up or whatever.  That's it in a nutshell.


Posted by: The Oort Cloud at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (l1Nun)

139 Legalize all drugs and sell them cheap. Sure you'll reduce the population by a couple of % points but what the hell, these are probably the losers who'll cost us money anyways
Posted by: NativeNH at April 23, 2014 02:03 PM (9DGNE)

Not sure if serious but...

I have NO PROBLEM with any of this. 

I am not a Malthusian.  I don't believe there is a truly unsustainable number of people on the planet.  I AM a believer in Darwinism however, and there are clearly too many STUPID people on the planet.  So anything which decreases that number significantly...

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 23, 2014 10:07 AM (WtVhX)

140 Found this earlier today: "Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves." -Henry David Thoreau (1817-62) Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 02:01 PM (VjL9S) -------------------------------- I appreciate his sentiment, but tangentially I must point out that he was a pussy vegetarian whose book Walden, was a crock of bush-hippy navel-gazing, disingenuous monkey-shit.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 10:08 AM (CJjw5)

141 "What this cruel 1984 law did is deprive young people of safe spaces where they could happily drink cheap beer, socialize, chat, and flirt... Wow what a deep thinker. Camille Paglia truly is one sage social commenter. Am I supposed to take this person seriously??

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:08 AM (fW9N0)

142 132 At what point do we treat them as adults? in my case with nck? ummmmm, NEVER

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:08 AM (krmE0)

143 136 Misanthropic H, Consistency from the Columbia Insane Asylum?

Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 10:08 AM (TE35l)

144 At what point do we treat them as adults? Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 02:07 PM (VjL9S) my best guess? 25. anecdotal, of course. No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:08 AM (x3YFz)

145 its the innocent bastard they hit that I care about

but mostly it's my mailbox.

My yard, get your drunk ass off it.

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at April 23, 2014 10:09 AM (L02KD)

146 Doug Stanhope has a very funny DUI bit: http://tinyurl.com/mrqvm3v About four minutes into it, he blasts MADD: "Those fucking propaganda whores. What incredible liars. Just full of shit."

Posted by: kathysaysso at April 23, 2014 10:09 AM (6H6o8)

147 I believe the age for purchasing alcohol in Italy is 16. It may have changed.

Is it more liberal? Sure it's part of the culture and it is not illegal to serve young children in your home.

But don't let me stop Camille. She's on a roll.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:09 AM (GGCsk)

148 141 Soothsayer, Her tits anyway.... //Jharles Chonson

Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 10:09 AM (TE35l)

149 Of all the pressing issues out there that are immediately impinging on our freedoms... This is surreal.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:10 AM (fW9N0)

150 Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 02:08 PM (krmE0) 40 flutter kicks and flip and push 20.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:10 AM (x3YFz)

151

If you are old enough to enlist and die, you are old enough to drink

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 23, 2014 01:46 PM (nTgAI)

 

You're missing Paglia's point. According to her, if you're old enough to wear  diapers and drool in your bib, you're old enough to drink alcohol.

 

It's all bullshit. Camille Paglia's all bullshit. I've read three of her books, a few of her essays, watched her in interviews. Paglia thinks of herself as an iconoclast, an intellectual free spirit who goes where the truth takes her. Well, her idea of the truth takes her to some strange fucking places.  For example, Camille Paglia thinks that molten river fight scene between Annakin Skywalker and Obiwan Kenobi in that ridiculous last installment of that ridiculous Star Wars space opera series is one of the greatest--if not THE greatest--scenes in film history. What the hell? And now she thinks children with unhindered access to alcohol is just peachy, thanks.

Posted by: troyriser at April 23, 2014 10:10 AM (2jF2B)

152 BREAKING NEWS: Duchess of Cornwall's brother, 62, dies after smashing head in fall outside New York club Though they don't say it, I suspect lots of alcohol was involved.

Posted by: Sir Pug A Lott at April 23, 2014 10:10 AM (8c12T)

153 What? Change the law and take away one of The Feral Gummint's most useful methods of exerting control over the States through highway funding? Never! Graduated citizenship is a cynical joke. It's 16 for this, 18 for that, 21 for the other, and 26 for your 404care. Just more Nannystate bullshit. It never ends. Not even when you die.

Posted by: Jaws at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (eKZp1)

154 143 136 Misanthropic H, Consistency from the Columbia Insane Asylum? Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 02:08 PM (TE35l Glad you reaffirmed my answer to my question.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (HVff2)

155 Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 02:04 PM (x3YFz) I think the drinking age creates a mystique around drinking, a target for rebellion. When we were really little, my dad used to allow us to take a sip of his beer. In fact we were so little that we had to stand on our tippy toes to reach the glass while he was sitting in the chair. As far as I know, none of us kids has a drinking problem. In fact, I cannot stand the smell of beer.

Posted by: Chique at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (r+7wo)

156 Are you seeing the recipe for abject chaos here? I am. Your argument can't really be used to attack a limit of 18 while defending a limit of 21, especially in this New Age of 26-year-old children.

Posted by: t-bird at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (FcR7P)

157 What used to piss me off when I first went into the Navy was, unlike the Army and the AF, the Navy adopted the drinking age of the State vs 18 at all EM and PO clubs.   So when I went to Great Lakes for MMA school had to go over the State line to drink. When I went to Nuke school we went to Aberdeen Proving Grounds. I turned 21 after that so it didn't matter.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (T2V/1)

158 I appreciate his sentiment, but tangentially I must point out that he was a pussy vegetarian whose book Walden, was a crock of bush-hippy navel-gazing, disingenuous monkey-shit. You wouldn't feel that way if 'Walden' was a Musical.

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (Yv7Xy)

159 Of all the pressing issues out there that are immediately impinging on our freedoms... This is surreal. Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 02:10 PM (fW9N0) ahh. Don't make the mistake of thinking we've forgotten. We multitask quite well.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (x3YFz)

160 147 I believe the age for purchasing alcohol in Italy is 16. It may have changed. was last summer although the standard is if you can reach the bar you can get served if your parent buys you one you drink too but no one there will buy a little kid alcohol besides wine at a café or bar

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:11 AM (krmE0)

161 By the way. Does Camille have a nice rack and is it worth seeing nekid?

Because then- I may agree with her.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (GGCsk)

162 Of all the pressing issues out there that are immediately impinging on our freedoms... This is surreal. ---- Fight the battles you can. I actually think this is one area where you could get some movement. From a freedom standpoint, this is actually a big one as it (and the subsequent supreme court case) gave the federal government a lot of power over the states. So yeah, the federal drinking age mandate was actually a big deal.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (gmeXX)

163 144 TangoNine, WRONG! They're babies until 26! //Barack ACA Ogabecare

Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (TE35l)

164 "Can an underage person possess and consume alcohol beverages on licenses premises in the State of Wisconsin?" Yes. Persons under age 21 may possess and consume alcohol beverages if they are with their parents, guardians or spouses of legal drinking age; at the discretion of the licensee. http://www.revenue.wi.gov/faqs/ise/atundrg.html

Posted by: grammie winger at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (oMKp3)

165 It's funny that I never heard, from anyone, of massive problems back when the drinking age *was* 18. Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 02:07 PM (PYAXX)


http://tinyurl.com/cmznk35

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (6T8Ay)

166 In fact, I cannot stand the smell of beer. Same here. Never tried it, don't miss it.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (J79eW)

167 my best guess? 25. anecdotal, of course. No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions. I did. At 20. Then again, I went to work as a prison guard one month before my 20th birthday. Ramsey 1 Unit, Brazoria County, Texas. You tend to grow up fast on a maximum security unit.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 23, 2014 10:12 AM (YIZv0)

168 Our entire health care system is going to shit. One-sixth of our economy has been whimsically taken over by a mere few hundred Central Planners in Washington D.C., but this, this is important.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:13 AM (fW9N0)

169 And now she thinks children with unhindered access to alcohol is just peachy, thanks. ---- Children or adults of age 18?

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:13 AM (gmeXX)

170 Imagine the week after they eliminated the U.S drinking age. What would that be like?

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:13 AM (GGCsk)

171 40 flutter kicks and flip and push 20.  Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 02:10 PM (x3YFz)

Mountain Climbers.  Ready?  BEGIN!

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 10:13 AM (6T8Ay)

172 152 BREAKING NEWS: Duchess of Cornwall's brother, 62, dies after smashing head in fall outside New York club Though they don't say it, I suspect lots of alcohol was involved. --- Yeah, not really surprised about your latter comment. The former long-time Secretary Of State for Louisiana spent his final few years as a paraplegic. Given that he was a known drunk, it's believed but not confirmed that the fall that crippled him was tied to his drinking.

Posted by: Zombie William Holden at April 23, 2014 10:13 AM (APuJ7)

173 157 So when I went to Great Lakes for MMA school had to go over the State line to drink. one of the saddest days of my life was when I went to GL for C school and snipe's castle was gone

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (krmE0)

174 144 At what point do we treat them as adults?

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 02:07 PM (VjL9S)

my best guess? 25.

anecdotal, of course.

No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions.
========
Ok. I agree.

Auto insurance companies agree, with piles of data to back them up.

But, I think 18 on everything is a path toward more freedom while 25 is a path toward more nannyism, the benevolent dictatorship of the do-gooders.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (VjL9S)

175 157 What used to piss me off when I first went into the Navy was, unlike the Army and the AF, the Navy adopted the drinking age of the State vs 18 at all EM and PO clubs. So when I went to Great Lakes for MMA school had to go over the State line to drink. Posted by: Vic at April 23, 2014 02:11 PM (T2V/1) Which is why Wisconsin ended up changing the legal age from 18 to 21. Too many dead bodies between Lake Geneva and the naval base.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (oMKp3)

176 Duchess of Cornhole?

Posted by: Boss Moss at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (LJ7Ze)

177 Camille strikes me as someone who is in a constant battle over what they believe. I agree with her on this point. Lower the drinking age to 18 MADD be damned.

Posted by: Kreplach at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (ojOys)

178 I appreciate his sentiment, but tangentially I must point out that he was a pussy vegetarian whose book Walden, was a crock of bush-hippy navel-gazing, disingenuous monkey-shit. Wasn't there good evidence that Thoreau was chilling at his friend's house, mooching off him, rather than doing his hippy living claimed in the book?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (J79eW)

179 No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions. Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 02:08 PM (x3YFz) At 22 I was in charge of all the Communications for the USS Iwo Jima (LPH-2).... had 8 men working for me... At 22 my Son is in charge of his shop, Calibrating Equipment in Guam... 4 men currently work for him... I think the earlier you EXPECT someone to be responsible... the earlier you make them accountable for their own actions... the Earlier they will BE responsible. Hell.... my maternal Grandpa was running his farm when he was 19....

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (84gbM)

180 Pappy Van Winkle and Macallan 21! It's for the children!

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:14 AM (GGCsk)

181 In fact, I cannot stand the smell of beer. See? Drinking problem, QED...

Posted by: t-bird at April 23, 2014 10:15 AM (FcR7P)

182 Posted by: Sean Bannion at April 23, 2014 02:12 PM (6T8Ay) Sorry, gotta throw a flag on that play. I was pointing out that I had seen *no evidence* of what had been insinuated (mass chaos due to 18 yr olds drinking). That has nothing to do with anyone's opinion- it has to do with data (or at least the plural of anecdote).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 10:15 AM (PYAXX)

183

Does Camille have a nice rack and is it worth seeing nekid?

 

She's not conventionally hot, but I'd still like to see her nekkid.  I like her, and people I like always become more attractive than they merit.  She would probably not care about seeing me nekkid, though, she's not on team penis.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 10:15 AM (JtwS4)

184 You wouldn't feel that way if 'Walden' was a Musical. Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 02:11 PM (Yv7Xy) ------------------------------------ You're off the Protected Rolls, garrett.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 10:15 AM (CJjw5)

185 No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 02:08 PM (x3YFz)
********
I dunno brother. I've seen some pretty decent Rangers and Marines who were barely 19.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:16 AM (GGCsk)

186 No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions. i'm almost 49 and still don't have my shit together

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:16 AM (krmE0)

187 So will McDonalds have to ask if the Happy Meal comes with a beer or a wine cooler?

Posted by: RWC at April 23, 2014 10:16 AM (fWAjv)

188 It's all bullshit. Camille Paglia's all bullshit [...] her idea of the truth takes her to some strange fucking places. Word, ol chum.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:16 AM (fW9N0)

189 "Alcohol-related traffic fatalities" is a dubious statistic. From NHTSA: "Alcohol-related traffic crashes are defined by the United States National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) as alcohol-related if either a driver or a non-motorist had a measurable or estimated BAC of 0.01 g/dl or above." NHTSA changed the definition. They used to only count fatalities if the *driver* had a BAC over 0.08. So when it's said that raising the drinking age caused alcohol-related traffic fatalities to decline, that's not the whole story.

Posted by: Brewdog at April 23, 2014 10:16 AM (ZgUuK)

190 I dunno brother. I've seen some pretty decent Rangers and Marines who were barely 19.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 02:16 PM (GGCsk)

 

Sure, but that is with a very supervised existence

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 23, 2014 10:17 AM (nTgAI)

191 You wouldn't feel that way if 'Walden' was a Musical. Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 02:11 PM (Yv7Xy)

I do believe we have a thread winner.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 23, 2014 10:17 AM (6T8Ay)

192 My step son was dischared from the Navy for underage drinking. Let that one simmer in your brain for awhile Thanks again Libby Dole

Posted by: tmitsss at April 23, 2014 10:17 AM (7Rx8v)

193 Ftr, I have not yet read the post. But I've been of this opinion since I moved here as an 18 year old, ahem, maaaaybe 6 years ago. Never drank underage, never been so much as buzzed.

Posted by: Chique at April 23, 2014 10:17 AM (r+7wo)

194 So will McDonalds have to ask if the Happy Meal comes with a beer or a wine cooler? Why must you insist on Gender Roles?

Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 10:17 AM (Yv7Xy)

195 I think the drinking age creates a mystique around drinking, a target for rebellion. Posted by: Chique at April 23, 2014 02:11 PM (r+7wo) Where I grew up, it was right out of a country music song. We'd hit the river, load up a bonfire, back all the trucks up. We'd fish, chase the fillies, wrastle, hoot and holler. Crank the radios and just have fun. Bonfires, cowgirls, some fightin', all ended well. In fact, our county sheriff bought our graduation keg. She said "you boys stay the night there, don't drive. Have fun. I see headlights coming out of Big Hole and I'll lock you up for life."

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:18 AM (x3YFz)

196 Frankly, there is no way to tell what age is best. You can come up with reasonable pros and cons for any drinking age. You could probably come up with statistics to support whatever view you want. This is one of the arguments for federalism. No one can know exactly what is best. We can let the states experiment. Maybe it is 16, maybe it is 18, maybe 21, maybe 25 - who knows. Let the states pick and choose. Some states may choose a lower age and deal with whatever consequence because it is better for tourism (NV or LA), just let the states decide. If we could get the federal government out of this one area, I would call that a pretty big victory.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:18 AM (gmeXX)

197

So will McDonalds have to ask if the Happy Meal comes with a beer or a wine cooler?

 

You know what you can get at the movie theaters in Amsterdam?  A beer.  And I'm not talking no paper cup beer at McDonalds, a real beer in a real glass.

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 23, 2014 10:18 AM (JtwS4)

198 186 No one has their shit together until 25, with very few exceptions. i'm almost 49 and still don't have my shit together Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 02:16 PM (krmE0 Well, FUCKING DUH

Posted by: Jay Cutler at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (HVff2)

199 You know what you can get at the movie theaters in Amsterdam? A beer. And I'm not talking no paper cup beer at McDonalds, a real beer in a real glass. --- What do they call a Whopper?

Posted by: Jules Winfield at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (APuJ7)

200 When I was 6, on summer days, Dad would be driving home from work in his VW Beetle. With the windows open, you could hear it a block away. My Mom would go to the fridge, get his beer out, and pour it into a glass. I'd get a sip of the foam off the top.

At 12, I would sit at the bar sipping a cola while my Dad had something stiffer.

These experiences demystified alcohol for me. I had no interest in drinking to get drunk, or in doing the other things those around me exposed themselves to. As such, I'm reasonably well adjusted.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (XrGnJ)

201 I would say let's separate drinking and driving from lowering the drinking age.

In fact, I would support eliminating the drinking age if the penalty for DUI was eliminating your privilege to drive in any state- forever.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (GGCsk)

202 Why must you insist on Gender Roles? Posted by: garrett at April 23, 2014 02:17 PM (Yv7Xy) Someone has to keep the war on womynz going or the patriarchy is dooooomed.

Posted by: RWC at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (fWAjv)

203 194 Garret, Goddamnit I was a fucking Tranny?

Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (TE35l)

204 Posted by: Vic at April 23, 2014 02:11 PM (T2V/1) Ahhhhh yes.... fond memories of the Drunk Train ride back from Kenosha and Milwaukee.... and they had some great bars back then.... Ma Bells.... Safe House... Stoned Toad...

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (84gbM)

205

In fact, our county sheriff bought our graduation keg. She said "you boys stay the night there, don't drive. Have fun. I see headlights coming out of Big Hole and I'll lock you up for life."

 

Now *that* is the way to do it!

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 10:19 AM (JtwS4)

206 You know what you can get at the movie theaters in Amsterdam? A beer. And I'm not talking no paper cup beer at McDonalds, a real beer in a real glass. You can get the same here in Texas.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:20 AM (gmeXX)

207 She said "you boys stay the night there, don't drive. Have fun. I see headlights coming out of Big Hole and I'll lock you up for life." Don't worry, Officer. I hid their keys.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at April 23, 2014 10:20 AM (Yv7Xy)

208 I love the way we cannot have a conversation about lowering the purchasing-alcohol age to 18 without some idiots insisting that we must really want infants being handed bottles of booze and preschoolers tying one on at McDonald's. Love it.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at April 23, 2014 10:20 AM (Yz5ZM)

209 Wasn't there good evidence that Thoreau was chilling at his friend's house, mooching off him, rather than doing his hippy living claimed in the book? Posted by: bonhomme at April 23, 2014 02:14 PM (J79eW) -------------------------------- Yes. His "Life in the Woods" was less than two miles from town.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 10:20 AM (CJjw5)

210 preschoolers tying one on at McDonald's. Love it. --- Gimme three fingers of milk, ma!

Posted by: Bart Simpson at April 23, 2014 10:20 AM (APuJ7)

211 You know what you can get at the movie theaters in Amsterdam? A beer. And I'm not talking no paper cup beer at McDonalds, a real beer in a real glass.
=========
Alamo Draft House opens here later this month.


Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 10:20 AM (VjL9S)

212 >166 In fact, I cannot stand the smell of beer.

Same here. Never tried it, don't miss it.

Posted by: bonhomme at April 23, 2014 02:12 PM (J79eW)<



Yeah, me too!



**watches for bolts of lightning out of the sky**

Posted by: Muad'dib at April 23, 2014 10:21 AM (sjdRT)

213 198 MH, I made that one a little too easy, didn't I?

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:21 AM (krmE0)

214 Imagine the week after they eliminated the U.S drinking age. What would that be like?
Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 02:13 PM (GGCsk)



Shit'll be fucking wild. Problem is, the only memory that will be left following it is waking up next to a 350lb beast of a 'woman'.

Posted by: mugiwara at April 23, 2014 10:21 AM (W7ffl)

215 In fact, I would support eliminating the drinking age if the penalty for DUI was eliminating your privilege to drive in any state- forever. How about driving while sleepy? Easily just as (if not more) dangerous as DUI. I'm not a fan of DUI laws. It's a fantasy, and I know it, but I'd like to see a legal system which punished the behavior we're actually against (hurting other people when you run your car into them) instead of punishing behavior which might lead to the behavior we're actually against (driving while drunk). OTOH, see my comment above about treating everything you do while drunk as though it were "premeditated."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 10:21 AM (PYAXX)

216 I agree that Paglia is not much of a libertarian, but she is not a partisan hack either.  More Alan Dershowitz than Rachel Maddow. 

Posted by: Benji Carver at April 23, 2014 10:22 AM (K2XO3)

217 Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 02:19 PM (GGCsk) so you are for effectively destroying a persons ability to work... For a crime that often does not hurt anyone? I'm all for consequence of action.... hurt or kill someone when drunk... jail time.... But destroying someone life, when they did NOT hurt anyone?

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 10:22 AM (84gbM)

218 OTOH, see my comment above about treating everything you do while drunk as though it were "premeditated." ------------------------------------- Like fat chicks?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 10:22 AM (CJjw5)

219 Duchess of Cornwall, eh? Meh, who cares. Bonus points for the first one to identify (in one sentence) the following historical figure: Cornwallis.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:22 AM (fW9N0)

220 This is inane. Frat boys do not stage rave orgies because they didn't learn how to drink beer with grandfather. Frat boys stage rave orgies because they are jerks, and people like Paglia's grandfather won't let authorities fire into a rampaging mob of 200 frat boys staging a rave orgy. The authorities will just hope they run straight away from the authorities, and the frat boys know it. Rave orgies are not a failure of our culture and our social norms; they are a culmination of everything our culture preaches is good. Defying the authorities is good, as is casual sex, and inebriation, and if you can pack all three together into two hours for a few hundred fellow libertines, so what? The only objection to such behavior is basically moral and cultural, and we've all agreed those arguments are offensive.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 23, 2014 10:22 AM (5xmd7)

221 I always thought the McDonalds Playground could use an open bar and a hot-tub.

Posted by: Roman Polanski at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (Yv7Xy)

222 Ten of the founding fathers we're 18 or younger. 26 of the founding fathers we're 24 or younger.

Posted by: Kreplach at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (sRsX7)

223 Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 02:21 PM (PYAXX) Also... Texting while driving has the almost exact same effect as being over the legal limit... So.... Text and not drive forever?

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (84gbM)

224 I agree that Paglia is not much of a libertarian, but she is nota partisan hack either. More Alan Dershowitz than Rachel Maddow.

Posted by: Benji Carver at April 23, 2014 02:22 PM (K2XO3)

 

Yeah, she does look more like Dershowitz

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (nTgAI)

225 Shit'll be fucking wild. Problem is, the only memory that will be left following it is waking up next to a 350lb beast of a 'woman'. --- I wish I were that lucky. Last bender I had like that, I can't remember if I was on a street corner or serving as a guest lecturer at Villanova.

Posted by: Barney Gumble at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (APuJ7)

226 Like fat chicks? Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 02:22 PM (CJjw5) I can neither confirm nor deny...

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (PYAXX)

227 Has the US Navy changed the regs about drinking liquor aboard naval vessels?

Posted by: mrp at April 23, 2014 10:23 AM (JBggj)

228 >>Yes. His "Life in the Woods" was less than two miles from town. <<

He attended many get together s at his friends house. I've never seen the evidence he continuously lived there.

And it is still a brilliant piece of literature irrespective. It's the bullshit hippy self-projection, misquoting, out of context shit they heap on Thoreau that made him some kind of liberal hero.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (GGCsk)

229 I like those Thoreau quotes mostly for the "pissing off the leftist who think they're his philosophical descendents" aspect most.

They've never been about freedom, they've always been about fascism.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (VjL9S)

230 Bonus points for the first one to identify (in one sentence) the following historical figure: Cornwallis. --- Commanding officer of the British forces during the Revolutionary War?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (APuJ7)

231 In 1968, in his best-selling book The Population Bomb, scientist Paul Ehrlich declared: "In the 1970s the world will undergo famines - hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death." In 1972, in their influential landmark study The Limits to Growth, the Club of Rome announced that the world would run out of gold by 1981, of mercury by 1985, tin by 1987, zinc by 1990, petroleum by 1992, and copper, lead, and gas by 1993. In 1977, Jimmy Carter, President of the United States incredible as it may seem, confidently predicted that "we could use up all of the proven reserves of oil in the entire world by the end of the next decade."

Posted by: Happy Earf Day at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (ZPrif)

232 Cornwallis was that bloke who surrendered at Yorktown.

Posted by: Boss Moss at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (LJ7Ze)

233

The kids are stoned out of their minds already on  ADD drugs.  Sure.  Let's let them drink.  They'll be even easier to control then.  Won't even have to educate them.  Just let them party hardy.  Keggers  for the 1st graders, I say.

 

It's the libertarian mantra. 

Posted by: Soona at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (OkDqc)

234 Like fat chicks? Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 23, 2014 02:22 PM (CJjw5) I can neither confirm nor deny... Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 02:23 PM (PYAXX) I'll take this opportunity to flash my Wingman Commendation Medal, silver oak leaf cluster.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (x3YFz)

235

Bonus points for the first one to identify (in one sentence) the following historical figure: Cornwallis.

 

Dude what surrendered at Yorktown.  (That's the one where the flight deck was orange).

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (JtwS4)

236 btw, if you think "failing upwards" is a recent phenomenon, let me introduce you to General Charles Cornwallis (1738-1805).

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:24 AM (fW9N0)

237 "I dare say you'd find more support for a return to Prohibition amongst the GOP than you'd see for eliminating the drinking age. " The most valid point here. And a window into the VA GOP...

Posted by: anon a mouse at April 23, 2014 10:25 AM (gXRIG)

238 175 157 What used to piss me off when I first went into the Navy was, unlike the Army and the AF, the Navy adopted the drinking age of the State vs 18 at all EM and PO clubs. So when I went to Great Lakes for MMA school had to go over the State line to drink.
Posted by: Vic at April 23, 2014 02:11 PM (T2V/1)



Which is why Wisconsin ended up changing the legal age from 18 to 21. Too many dead bodies between Lake Geneva and the naval base.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 23, 2014 02:14 PM (oMKp3)

++++

No, that's not the reason why. The reason why was that Uncle Sam passed a law tying highway funds to the drinking age. Wisconsin, like every other state with a drinking age below 21, changed its laws so they would not lose those federal dollars.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at April 23, 2014 10:25 AM (IN7k+)

239 I think we should not worry about age as much as sex and/or ethnic make up example: chicks with Spanish or Italian blood should be banned from drinking tequila and if you're lurking T...yeah, i'm talking about YOU!

Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (krmE0)

240 Mark Steyn syndicated column in 2009: According to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, we only have 96 months left to save the planet.I'm impressed. 96 months. Not 95. Not 97. July 2017. Put it in your diary. Usually the warm-mongers stick to the same old drone that we only have ten years left to save the planet. Nice round number. Al Gore said we only have ten years left three-and-a-half years ago, which makes him technically more of a pessimist than the Prince of Wales. Al's betting that Armageddon kicks in sometime in January 2016 — unless he's just peddling glib generalities... As the British newspaper the Independent reported: "Capitalism and consumerism have brought the world to the brink of economic and environmental collapse, the Prince of Wales has warned. . . . And in a searing indictment on capitalist society, Charles said we can no longer afford consumerism and that the 'age of convenience' was over." He then got in his limo and was driven to his other palace.

Posted by: Happy Earf Day at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (ZPrif)

241 is it Erf Day? And me not burning a tire! BRB!

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (x3YFz)

242 What they used to do in CO worked well: Age 18 - Can drink 3.2% alcohol beer Age 21 - Can drink all other alcohol Meant you could have beer parties. Also meant you could get into bars to dance, see bands, without getting into too much trouble. By college it wasn't all that big a deal to drink, go out, so none of that out of control binge-drinking stuff.

Posted by: Lizzy at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (pt5t7)

243 170 Imagine the week after they eliminated the U.S drinking age. What would that be like? Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 02:13 PM (GGCsk) _________ Probably not much different than it is now. Unless you're under the impression that nobody under 21 drinks today?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (0LHZx)

244 @208 Its similar to when you get into an argument with a liberal over guns. It evariably ends up with them saying, "so so you think people should have nuclear weapons????"

Posted by: Kreplach at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (sv/s3)

245 Same goes with pot, actually. Really, there's just no point to banning stuff that makes people happy, if only temporarily. Politicians do it to look like they're Doing Something but it's pointless. Here's what we should do: Legalize. Everything. Put the money spent on interdiction into treatment. But, if you refuse treatment but stay on the weed/smack/insert drug here then you lose all claim to government assistance. Posted by: joncelli at April 23, 2014 02:02 PM (RD7QR) So how many times should a person be eligible to receive treatment before the government assistance disappears? Alcohol affects younger brains in different ways than older brains. .The average 16 year old in this country doesn't resemble anything like the warrior 18 year olds enlisted in the Army. Those 18 year olds also make up a very small percentage of the youth population, they are much more mature and focused than the 97% of the yutes running around your neighborhood. How many morons feel confident that the 16 year olds they know in their neighborhood are so well brought up, so mature, so responsible that they can be trusted to use good judgement in limiting how many they knock back before they get in their new nissan mom and dad leased them and will pay attention while driving..you know, as they text with the boom box blaring and the joint in the ash tray. Raising kids is difficult enough today. Society has traditionally had guard rails up to assist parents that include minimum drinking age, minimum smoking age, minimum drug purchase age, etc. Let's blow all that up in the name of libertarianism, freedom for kids who havent' the slightest idea how to value it, and turn em loose on society. At the same time that our government and society as a whole keeps working at infantilizing teenagers, making sure that responsibility for oneself is reduced by the call of blaming someone else, don't work, someone else pays for insurance, school, etc.

Posted by: Jen at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (OPPHX)

246 Yeah, that's Cornwallis.

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:26 AM (fW9N0)

247 Parents are starting their kids a little later so they can be bigger, faster, stronger. Posted by: bonhomme at April 23, 2014 02:02 PM (J79eW) My giant kids were the youngest in their classes by sometimes a year or two but still the biggest. Half my time in parent-teacher conferences was reminding the teachers that they were the babies of the class -- regardless of their size.

Posted by: Mustbequantum at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (MIKMs)

248
At a minimum it should be 18 just to be consistent with the rest of the laws in this country (voting, military service, etc).


My Dad always gave me sips of his beer if I wanted when I was young, didn't want it too much then.  Oh and got sips of egg nog and other drinks too.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (hJauc)

249 I wish I were that lucky. Last bender I had like that, I can't remember if I was on a street corner or serving as a guest lecturer at Villanova. Posted by: Barney Gumble at April 23, 2014 02:23 PM (APuJ7) There's no effective difference between the two, really.

Posted by: joncelli at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (RD7QR)

250 Someone mentioned beer in vending machines up there a ways.  They actually have this in Japan.  The first time I saw it, I asked my translator what kept the kids out of it.  He looked all shocked and said, "They will not touch it because it is against the rules."  I do love Japan but it is an alien place.

Posted by: Muad'dib at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (sjdRT)

251 Oh totes fer sure, but give a chimp a Marlboro and everybody goes ape shit.

Posted by: Fritz at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (UzPAd)

252 I abhor the Federal Leviathan ... unless it prevents State ABC from differing from my well considered, perfect opinion on Topic XYZ. In that case, Central Government really is for the best.

Posted by: ScoggDog at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (ABZ+u)

253 Imagine the week after they eliminated the U.S drinking age. What would that be like? Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 02:13 PM (GGCsk) It would be like when 2A restrictions are lifted. BLOOD IN THE STREETS!! Actually I think it would be like anytime a law/restriction is taken away. Those who are responsible will continue to be so. Those that had the desire to take part in said restricted activity will continue to do so. And it's not like lifting the age restriction takes away parents rights to set limits on their children.

Posted by: RWC at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (fWAjv)

254 No, that's not the reason why. The reason why was that Uncle Sam passed a law tying highway funds to the drinking age. Wisconsin, like every other state with a drinking age below 21, changed its laws so they would not lose those federal dollars. --- Louisiana was one of the final holdouts on this, as my sister's senior HS class went from being able to drink a few nights a week to "officially" having to wait about 3 more years.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 10:27 AM (APuJ7)

255 Agree with Camille on this one.

Posted by: Mike at April 23, 2014 10:28 AM (Rk8LS)

256 >>Probably not much different than it is now. Unless you're under the impression that nobody under 21 drinks today?<<

Nobody misses an opportunity to party bovine dude.

Oh and that's only if you believe that nobody at all is dissuaded by the current law.

Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 10:28 AM (GGCsk)

257 So the drinking age is the only thing preventing an elementary school full of drunk kids. Good to know.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:28 AM (gmeXX)

258 "Raising kids is difficult enough today. Society has traditionally had guard rails up to assist parents that include minimum drinking age, minimum smoking age, minimum drug purchase age, etc" They aren't so much guard rails as paper fences that blow over at the slightest resistance. From my experience as a teenager it was absurdly easy to access alcohol, tobacco, and pot. These laws are about like the TSA: they make some people feel better and more secure, but do literally almost nothing in curbing destructive behavior.

Posted by: Roadrunner at April 23, 2014 10:28 AM (NsfWh)

259 250 Someone mentioned beer in vending machines up there a ways. They actually have this in Japan. The first time I saw it, I asked my translator what kept the kids out of it. He looked all shocked and said, "They will not touch it because it is against the rules." I do love Japan but it is an alien place. --- Japan also used to have soiled panties in vending machines and would blur out genitalia in their porno films, yet they have an entire subculture of tentacle-rape animation. Calling Japan "an alien place" is an understatement.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 10:29 AM (APuJ7)

260 I'll bet my left nut if you ask Camille Paglia if we should do away with the smoking age, she'd say No Way!

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 10:29 AM (fW9N0)

261 What about tobacco, what, exactly is the "sound scientific basis" for the "you can't handle the demon tobacco until you're 18" notion?

And if you've ever inhaled too much on a good cigar, yeah--just as blitzed for 20+ minutes as drunk.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 23, 2014 10:30 AM (VjL9S)

262 Nood SCOTUS.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at April 23, 2014 10:30 AM (PYAXX)

263 Posted by: Jen at April 23, 2014 02:26 PM (OPPHX) My thought was incomplete. The basic assumption of a policy like I proposed is that it applies to adults, and the law says that you can make a contract at 18. That makes you an adult. Before that point you are a juvenile and may only do what your parents allow you to do.

Posted by: joncelli at April 23, 2014 10:30 AM (RD7QR)

264 Posted by: Jen at April 23, 2014 02:26 PM (OPPHX) Perhaps a compromise, a return to the era of Parental rights. Some states allowed drinking under 21 if a parent were present. This seems reasonable to me. It restores the choice (and responsibility) where it belongs: with the parents. (And the argument that "but bad parents" is moot, bad parents will be bad regardless of how we stack this law.) Heck, the other day one of my colleagues suggested the government has a duty to lower the age to get birth control to 14 (or lower) to "prevent bad outcomes such as teen pregnancy." Subverting parental rights in the name of utilitarianism. It's not right there, and it's not right with the drinking age either.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) [/b] [/i] [/s] at April 23, 2014 10:30 AM (HDwDg)

265 Nobody misses an opportunity to party bovine dude. Oh and that's only if you believe that nobody at all is dissuaded by the current law. Posted by: Marcus T at April 23, 2014 02:28 PM (GGCsk) _________- LOL, yeah. Nobody in high school drinks because they're under age and they think, oh gosh, drinking beer would be illegal, I best not.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 10:30 AM (0LHZx)

266 The bars in Windsor, Ontario where the drinking age is 18, draw a HUGE number of young adults not old enough to drink in Michigan.

It's almost as if people run towards freedom.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at April 23, 2014 10:30 AM (AC0lD)

267 A Nippophile friend of mine who follows the news there told me about a blogger who reported that during the last big earthquake everyone ran out of the store they were shopping in with all their goods in their hands.  Then when it settled down they all went back in to pay for the stuff.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 23, 2014 10:31 AM (JtwS4)

268 "So the drinking age is the only thing preventing an elementary school full of drunk kids. Good to know." Just like iron clad government and teacher's union control of the public schools is the only thing preventing education from collapsing in the USA.

Posted by: Roadrunner at April 23, 2014 10:31 AM (NsfWh)

269 Nood

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at April 23, 2014 10:31 AM (knoK7)

270 chicks with Spanish or Italian blood should be banned from drinking tequila and if you're lurking T...yeah, i'm talking about YOU! Posted by: navycopjoe at April 23, 2014 02:26 PM (krmE0) brother. I was in San Antonio for 5 years. There were... and they were hot... Tequilla.... Angry.... Sexy... I'll give you this story snippet: she walks up to my Bolivian friend (oh and the girls just raced to him... we gathered up the remnants). She gestures to me while I'm two stepping with some girl and says: "Why is he with that chica? I want him! Now!" Hugo called me over and said "you either take her home or she's going to kill you." No more tequila or spanish women for me.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:31 AM (x3YFz)

271 Posted by: Muad'dib at April 23, 2014 02:27 PM (sjdRT) Petty Officer Barracks in the Navy used to have Beer vending machines... late 70's early 80's.

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 10:31 AM (84gbM)

272 260 soothsayer, Same as with e-cigs.... I think prt-time libertarians piss me off as much as the balls to the floorboard libertines.

Posted by: sven10077 at April 23, 2014 10:31 AM (TE35l)

273 266 The bars in Windsor, Ontario where the drinking age is 18, draw a HUGE number of young adults not old enough to drink in Michigan. It's almost as if people run towards freedom. Posted by: Stateless Infidel at April 23, 2014 02:30 PM (AC0lD) ________ 19, not 18. And amazingly enough, Windsor hasn't descended into a hell hole inhabited by roving gangs of drunk 19 and 20 year olds.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 10:32 AM (0LHZx)

274 Let's blow all that up in the name of libertarianism, freedom for kids who havent' the slightest idea how to value it, and turn em loose on society. ---- No, let's have a reasonable conversation about how at the age of 18 you are treated like an adult and given other freedoms commensurate with being an adult and because of that shouldn't we extend this freedom as well. Kids are generally not 18. Will they make mistakes, of course. Do they make mistakes at 21, absolutely. Will it improve society? Who knows. How about we just let the states figure it out and get the federal government out of the process. The fact that this all came about from Nanny-do-gooders leads me to believe that it was a bad idea. That isn't always the case, but their track record isn't very good.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:33 AM (gmeXX)

275 Posted by: WalrusRex at April 23, 2014 01:53 PM (XUKZU)

They're not trying to introduce peace. They're trying to help their ideological compatriots win a war.

Posted by: Mega at April 23, 2014 10:33 AM (hHFOx)

276 >Japan also used to have soiled panties in vending machines and would blur out genitalia in their porno films, yet they have an entire subculture of tentacle-rape animation.

Calling Japan "an alien place" is an understatement.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 23, 2014 02:29 PM (APuJ7)<



I musta been so enamored of the beer vending machines that I missed the panty ones.  Likewise missed out on tentacles except those I was eating as sashimi. 

Posted by: Muad'dib at April 23, 2014 10:33 AM (sjdRT)

277 > Bonus points for the first one to identify (in one sentence) the following historical figure: Cornwallis. I remember laughing out loud in class in middle school while reading Johnny Tremaine because the book mentioned Cornwallis mounting his horse. Yeah, I was Beavis and Butthead with a crewcut.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at April 23, 2014 10:33 AM (ZWvOb)

278 I'm be fine with raising the voting age to 21 and keeping the drinking age at 21. But having this 3 year span of being able to vote, serve in the military, sign contracts....but not be able to sip a beer is fucking insane. Pick 18 or 21 or something in the middle and go with it for everything.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 10:34 AM (0LHZx)

279 Pick 18 or 21 or something in the middle and go with it for everything. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 02:34 PM (0LHZx) There is that whole bit about joining the military, being armed with everything under the sun, committing your life, but you can't have a beer. That shit right there is stupid.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:36 AM (x3YFz)

280 My thoughts: if you brainwash kids form an early age that alcohol is a Forbidden Sinful Thing and try to restrict their access to it for as long as possible, they will predictably rebel and do anything to access this mysterious elixir of fun and intrigue. It's about like guns: ween them into it slowly and under control while they are young. They'll learn to respect it and enjoy it responsibly. If 18 is old enough to commit yourself to the military and die in some treacherous foreign land, then it's old enough to commit yourself to a beer.

Posted by: Roadrunner at April 23, 2014 10:36 AM (NsfWh)

281 Miss Paglia is about the only lib I can stand to read. She's about as intelligent and intellectually honest as you will find.

Posted by: Mega at April 23, 2014 10:37 AM (hHFOx)

282 Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 02:32 PM (0LHZx)

Thanks for the correction. I should know that.

There used to be occasional incidents but I think the number coming of people coming over to party has dropped considerably since crossing the border back into the US is now such a hassle.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at April 23, 2014 10:37 AM (AC0lD)

283 I was in college in the 1980s when the drinking age was raised suddenly from 19 to 21 (with no grandfathering).  The campus population went from roughly 25% underage to 75% underage overnight.  It completely changed on-campus life from an environment of casual legal consumption at open parties, to an environment of furtive underage consumption behind closed doors.  There was way more binge drinking after the law than before.

For my part, this is yet one more thing that should not be a Federal case.  Let the states pay the cost of nanny government, if they want it so badly.  The federal government is broke.  I would love for a future conservative president to have staffers whose whole job is to find federal laws to repeal and not replace.

Posted by: craig at April 23, 2014 10:37 AM (Q5asM)

284 Another argument in favor of lower the age is that what we have now is pretty much ignored. It is not good for society to have young people ignore the law at such an early age. We should not encourage law avoidance, but that is only if the laws make sense. From an 18 year old's perpsective (and my older perspective) it makes no sense to tell a person they can vote, they can serve, they can be legally responsible, but they can't drink. So they ignore the law. I don't think we as society want to encourage law avoidance.

Posted by: SH at April 23, 2014 10:37 AM (gmeXX)

285 260
I'll bet my left nut if you ask Camille Paglia if we should do away with the smoking age, she'd say No Way!

Posted by: Soothsayer § at April 23, 2014 02:29 PM (fW9N0)

++++

The "smoking age" is set by the states, not the federal government. Even then, most states only have a restriction on the under age purchase of tobacco, not the consumption. If a 10 year old wants to smoke a cigarette, and his uncle gives him one, no laws have been violated.

Liberty. It's dangerous out there.


Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at April 23, 2014 10:37 AM (IN7k+)

286 Duchess of Cornwall is Charles main squeeze.

Posted by: Sir Pug A Lott at April 23, 2014 10:38 AM (8c12T)

287 ask the Marines. What does every Marine get on the Marine corps birthday? Don't ask Amos. He's a douche.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:41 AM (x3YFz)

288 "One of my good friends from HS had an older brother who was killed by a drunk. His mother seems to have poured her grief into MADD"

A classic example.

Whenever I meet someone who has come to grief at the hands of a drunk driver, or has had a friend or family member do so, I always ask for the details regarding the drunk and the drunk's state of inebriation.

Here's a big hint. It's not the 0.08 BAC crowd who are doing things like driving the wrong way up the freeway without their headlights on.

The absolutely overwhelming majority of drunk driving _accidents_, serious ones, are caused by the very small minority of serious drunks. The people who get so blotto they don't know where they are or what they're doing.

Instead of specifically and intelligently trying to target, surveill and remove from the road that problem subpopulation, what government policy driven by MADD activists centers on is this blanket-ban, neoprohibitionist crap of hassling otherwise quite safe drivers who had two glasses of wine at dinner and left early.

Posted by: torquewrench at April 23, 2014 10:41 AM (noWW6)

289 This is one the things that Reagan did that I absolutely loathe. It was passed due to use of fraudulent statistics about drunk driving deaths and because every "but that 'fact' isn't actually correct" was shouted down with YOU JUST WANT KIDS TO DIE!!! Truth: I've bought alcohol for adults who weren't 21 yet. We'd just worked 12+ hours on our feet and they were going to stay overnight at a friend's house, watching movies and-they hoped- drinking a beer or three. None of them were going to be driving and they were all pretty responsible, so I went and bought the beer for them. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Look, either you're an adult at 18 or you're a fucking child. Let's see: you get tried and jailed as an adult, you join the military as an adult and you vote as an adult. Want to have a beer? YOU'RE A CHILD!!!. It's bullshit and I will have no part of it.

Posted by: physics geek at April 23, 2014 10:42 AM (MT22W)

290 Raise your hand if you have EVER had trouble actually procuring alcohol at any time in your life once you decided that you wanted some. In the eighties, when I was 17 and playing Dungeons and Dragons, and under the drinking age in Michigan, my younger brother—14—volunteered to go to the “party store” to get us some alcohol. We laughed and said, sure. He came back with three fifths of rum. I blame the D&D for the rest of that night.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at April 23, 2014 10:43 AM (WX3R9)

291 Instead of specifically and intelligently trying to target, surveill and remove from the road that problem subpopulation, what government policy driven by MADD activists centers on is this blanket-ban, neoprohibitionist crap of hassling otherwise quite safe drivers who had two glasses of wine at dinner and left early. Posted by: torquewrench at April 23, 2014 02:41 PM (noWW6) I got pulled over some years back. Apparently it was because my license plate wasn't sufficiently lit (right?). Officer had a rookie with her, was a total bitch. "Sir, have you had anything to drink tonight?" I answered truthfully: "Yes, two beers about 3 hours ago." had taken my troops out and yes, was just two beers, no shit. Bitch ran me through all the drunk tests on the side of the road and I blew a 0.04. I'm in uniform, embarrassed as hell on the side of the road. She didn't even apologize, she was disappointed that she couldn't arrest me. Bitch.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:47 AM (x3YFz)

292 I answered truthfully: "Yes, two beers about 3 hours ago." had taken my troops out and yes, was just two beers, no shit. Bitch ran me through all the drunk tests on the side of the road and I blew a 0.04. I'm in uniform, embarrassed as hell on the side of the road. She didn't even apologize, she was disappointed that she couldn't arrest me. Bitch. Same thing happened to me, except the copy was a guy. Every sobriety test that I passed seemed to disappoint him more. And he looked really upset when I blew a 0.03.

Posted by: physics geek at April 23, 2014 10:50 AM (MT22W)

293 I reached the age of eighteen in Michigan during the very same year that eighteen-year-olds became eligible both to vote and to buy alcoholic beverages. Sure, we took to the latter like ducks to water and behaved both foolishly and foolhardedly but, by the time I was twenty-one, those days were past. I'm with Paglia on this one. Young people put their lives on the line for us during those years of their lives. There is no earthly reason to treat them as immature children for three years just to satisfy the Savonarolas among us.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 23, 2014 10:51 AM (8bA1i)

294 "This is one the things that Reagan did that I absolutely loathe. It was passed due to use of fraudulent statistics about drunk driving deaths and because every "but that 'fact' isn't actually correct" was shouted down with YOU JUST WANT KIDS TO DIE!!! " Notice this is the identical template for the Dem's arguments in favor of welfare, gun control, and regulating fossil fuels to stop "global warming". When you're emulating the left, that should be a warning sign that you're taking the wrong stance on an issue.

Posted by: Roadrunner at April 23, 2014 10:51 AM (NsfWh)

295 Same thing happened to me, except the copy was a guy. Every sobriety test that I passed seemed to disappoint him more. And he looked really upset when I blew a 0.03. Posted by: physics geek at April 23, 2014 02:50 PM (MT22W) I have some great friends who are cops. Having said that: cops are assholes.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:54 AM (x3YFz)

296 Repeal the Drink Age, but make vehicular manslaughter a capital offense

Posted by: NSA For-ks America at April 23, 2014 10:54 AM (e8kgV)

297 19, not 18. And amazingly enough, Windsor hasn't descended into a hell hole inhabited by roving gangs of drunk 19 and 20 year olds. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 23, 2014 02:32 PM (0LHZx) Possibly this is why. http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/impaired/interlock.shtml

Posted by: Jen at April 23, 2014 10:55 AM (OPPHX)

298 Same thing happened to me, except the copy was a guy. Every sobriety test that I passed seemed to disappoint him more. And he looked really upset when I blew a 0.03. Posted by: physics geek at April 23, 2014 02:50 PM (MT22W) I remember her telling me to heel-toe walk a straight line. Now I'm a former drill instructor, so that kinda thing is...well...drilled into us. She didn't say how many steps to take, and I was thinking "you're an idiot, so I'm just going to keep heel-toeing it until you realize you're a dumbass." I took like 14 steps. Stopped. Turned around and asked her "how many miles would you like me to walk this way?" pissed her off further, but it was worth it.

Posted by: tangonine at April 23, 2014 10:58 AM (x3YFz)

299 Needed to back up the page regarding the consequences of DUI in Ontario... http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/impaired/index.shtml#consequences

Posted by: Jen at April 23, 2014 11:00 AM (OPPHX)

300 After reading Paglia's ramblings, I'm now in favor of raising the drinking age to 53.

Posted by: OregonMuse at April 23, 2014 11:00 AM (I8YZX)

301 There should be no Federal policy, law, nor even a guideline here. Let the "Laboratories of Democracy" handle the small stuff.

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at April 23, 2014 11:05 AM (UGWs/)

302 Forbid 18 year olds from drinking, and they'll turn to more easily portable, more easily concealable mind-altering substances like pot, pills, or worse. Like powdered booze, the new scourge! But I want to know: when can I set up my own still? I'd like to try my hand at corn squeezing, and make some of that white liquor.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at April 23, 2014 11:18 AM (1hM1d)

303

"Hence in the 1980s we immediately got the scourge of crude binge drinking at campus fraternity keg parties, cut off from the adult world. "

 

Man, those must have been some WILD parties!  I went to college in the early 70s and we had some epic frat debaucheries.  EPIC.

Posted by: Lost In Maryland at April 23, 2014 11:18 AM (FLFli)

304 BIG GOVERNMENT stopped kids from being able to buy a pack of smokes

Posted by: righter at April 23, 2014 11:20 AM (JBYUX)

305 When Camille is good, she is very good. She knocked this one out of the park. Obviously the federal government should have no say in the drinking age. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives it that power. It's as clear-cut a case of federalism as it gets. The feds use highway money to strong-arm the states into getting in line. The states really need to begin weaning themselves from federal money so they can tell the feds where to stick their mandates.

Posted by: rickl at April 23, 2014 11:22 AM (zoehZ)

306 I'm conflicted about this. I was part of the generation that was allowed to drink freely at age 18, and I thought it was great. But I know that the drinking age got moved back to 21 because of the way we acted back then.

Posted by: Tom Servo at April 23, 2014 11:23 AM (8Fa5Z)

307 For what it's worth, my friends and I fermented our own wine in high school, and during off-campus lunch breaks I'd drink it at home. Anyone who thinks drinking laws keep alcohol away from minors is completely unaware of reality.

Posted by: Roadrunner at April 23, 2014 11:24 AM (NsfWh)

308 There is some serious inaccurate information flying around. And it is amazing the nonsense people want to believe when it comes to activities they disapprove of. Ban alcohol for 18 year olds and they'll find something else to take ? What ? The hell they will. They'll just get friends or even strangers to buy it for them. I came of age in the late 1980s in a small town and nobody that I'm aware of EVER wanted for a beer to drink. Not to mention that the idea that binge drinking at frat parties suddenly appeared from nowhere when the drinking age changed is LAUGHABLE in the extreme. And pot smoking causing men to become "physiologically feminized" ?!!? WTF is that ? What research did she use to come up with that nonsense, or is she just translating her observation into scientific fact ? Do more men that smoke pot have long hair ? Sure. Do they generally forego strenuous physical activity ? Sure. Do these facts lead pot smokers to appear more feminine than strapping lumberjack types ? Sure. Does that mean smoking pot causes men to be physiologically feminized ? Fuck no. Seriously, WTF ?

Posted by: deadrody at April 23, 2014 11:25 AM (b2D8X)

309 Of all the things that are facing us, Camile takes a bold stance on booze.

For the record - I'm for keeping it as is.

Posted by: thathalfrican at April 23, 2014 11:37 AM (OWVZ+)

310

All I know is, the day you eliminate the drinking age, and have 16 year olds terrorizing our roads is the day I  go home on Friday afternoon, lock my doors about 6PM, and don't come back out until late Sunday evening.

 

Good luck cleaning up all the blood on the highways.   Try  to  unslick them a bit before my morning commute  on Monday. 

Posted by: BurtTC at April 23, 2014 11:50 AM (TOk1P)

311 We've had blue laws on the books since before the Founding. If they aren't working in more recent times, perhaps it is time to reconsider the shift away from a punitive penal system towards "rehabilitation".

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 23, 2014 12:02 PM (5xmd7)

312 In Virginia we could drink beer legally at 18. The reason for raising the age ....or the reason that sold the age-hike, was to keep 18 year old high schooler from supplying their high school pals. I remember being 14 at a cast party waiting for a guy named "Ace" (for reals) to show up with the beer, or at lease the other kids waiting because I had no interest in beer. I did have an interest in "Ace" but that's a different Paglia column. Raging the age to 21 would supposedly make it so that drinking would move to college and 18+college seniors would be buying for their young friends 18 and up, so no harm no foul. Drinking would somehow be where it belonged. It worked out like Paglia said, only this light ABC enforcement among college kids has turned into the worst of all worlds, one where young adults are accosted in dark parking lots for buying cookie dough and bottled water....because it MIGHT be beer requiring takedown with lethal force. A little moderation would be nice.

Posted by: SarahW at April 23, 2014 12:10 PM (Lbv/k)

313 Auto correct and a broken wrist do not to go together.

Posted by: SarahW at April 23, 2014 12:11 PM (Lbv/k)

314 Because what America needs is more dead brain cells.

Posted by: noone, really [/i][/b] at April 23, 2014 12:13 PM (5ikDv)

315 My dad was a high school teacher when the drinking age was lowered to 18. It didn't work out very well - students getting drunk at lunch. The problem wasn't so much that the 18 year olds were drinking but the 18 year olds were buying for the 14 year olds. Intellectually it is a nice argument to lower the drinking age to 18, but there are consequences that have to be acknowledged first. Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Ragey. My Friends at April 23, 2014 01:53 PM (y9JTC) I was in high school when you could drink at 18. The first thing we did was hit up a senior to buy beer. It was easy as pie.

Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at April 23, 2014 12:14 PM (QR7wx)

316

"310
All I know is, the day you eliminate the drinking age, and have 16 year olds terrorizing our roads is the day I go home on Friday afternoon, lock my doors about 6PM, and don't come back out until late Sunday evening.

Good luck cleaning up all the blood on the highways. Try to unslick them a bit before my morning commute on Monday. "

 

What a load of BS......As a matter of fact, with that wussy attitude, why don't you just lock yourself up for the rest of the week and throw away the key? And join MADD, you troll.

Posted by: River Commander at April 23, 2014 12:34 PM (728Fx)

317 Yeah anybody who isn't a libertarian is a troll! Public Drunkeness! It's what America was founded on!

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 23, 2014 01:01 PM (5xmd7)

318

Safe House... Stoned Toad...

 

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 23, 2014 02:19 PM (84gbM)

 

Safe House is still around. Stoned Toad died a long time ago.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at April 23, 2014 01:04 PM (+XMAD)

319 310  "All I know is, the day you eliminate the drinking age, and have 16 year olds terrorizing our roads is the day I go home on Friday afternoon, lock my doors about 6PM, and don't come back out until late Sunday evening.

Good luck cleaning up all the blood on the highways. Try to unslick them a bit before my morning commute on Monday."


Reminds me of when the left claimed there would be 'blood in the streets' if concealed carry laws were ever passed.  Didn't happen.  Funny thing is, liberty usually works when it is tried.

Posted by: craig at April 23, 2014 02:13 PM (Q5asM)

320 " Funny thing is, liberty usually works when it is tried." Carrying a firearm does not in any way impair your reasoning, your physical reflexes, or your vision. By the Libertarian standards of "liberty", the United States has never enjoyed liberty.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 23, 2014 02:20 PM (5xmd7)

321 I bet Roman Polanski is tickled spitless with this notion.

Posted by: Erowmero at April 23, 2014 02:55 PM (go5uR)

322 "Carrying a firearm does not in any way impair your reasoning..."

But that's exactly what the left claims on that issue.

The point is, personal responsibility is self-reinforcing.  People are as responsible on balance as they have to be.  Give people the responsibility and the authority to run their own lives, and they will step up for the most part.  100 years ago an 18-year-old would already support a family, and right now there's a 20-year-old in Afghanistan responsible for the lives of a couple dozen other men.  But the Pajama Boys of this world want to declare them irresponsible infants until 26.

Posted by: craig at April 23, 2014 07:32 PM (r8yeY)

323 I thought Camille Paglia was someone from the 1920s.  You're saying she's still alive?

Posted by: Kevin at April 23, 2014 10:53 PM (IbauB)

324 The Founders thought it appropriate for 100% of the population of dry counties to be barred from purchasing booze, regardless of age or military service.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 24, 2014 08:30 AM (5xmd7)

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