Ace of Spades HQ

January 21, 2014

Common Core Is Pretty Dumb
— Ace

If that isn't big enough on your screen here, hit the twitchy link to get a bigger picture.

What they're asking kids to do is this: Rather than simply memorize the fact that seven plus seven equals fourteen, they're training kids to recognize possible shortcuts or easier paths to computation. If a kid realizes a seven is made up of 3 plus four, and remembers that three plus seven equals ten, then he can "simplify" the problem as ten plus four, which gives fourteen.

Here's the problem: The shortcut/easier path of computation is actually more complicated than just learning that seven plus seven equals fourteen.

This is Cargo Cult stuff. They did the same thing with their new innovations in Whole Word learning (reading a word at a glance), when they got rid of Phonics (sounding a word out, letter by letter), and doomed a generation to being bad readers.

Here's the Cargo Cult part:

Professional Highly-Educated Education Researchers noted that high-level early readers were usually just identifying words at a glance -- reading in a "whole word" way. While kids using Phonics read more slowly. Phonics kids were slower readers and struggled with it more.

So hey -- let's stop teaching kids this slow method of reading called Phonics and just teach them "Whole Word" reading!!! Win, win, win!!! It's easier for the students, and even easier for the teachers, as they don't have to teach the step-by-step Phonics method of reading. They can just say the word "horse" is horse and keep saying it until these stupid kids start learning that "horse" means horse.

Here's the problem: This is Cargo Cult mneliaty. Yes, the high-lanrneig, early-raednig kids are in fact using the Wlohe Wrod raenidg mhoted, just as you, reading that gibberish I just wrote, employed Whole Word reading -- looking at the first and last letters of the word and using context and years and years of experience in how the written language works, and what words are expected to come in which place in a sentence to read, fairly easily, a bunch of misspelled words as the words I intended.

But the high-learning, early-reading kids are only doing that because they started reading earlier than the other kids. All kids -- including the early readers -- go through the Phonics phase. One of my earliest recollections (maybe my earliest) is sounding out the word "BAKERY" when we were getting some bread or donuts. My parents were pretty impressed. (I was nineteen years old.)

Now, having gone through the Phonics phase at age 3 or 4, by age five I was reading quite a bit, especially Peanuts (I had whole books, decades' worth of Peanuts cartoons). And I had moved from "mostly Phonics" to "mostly Whole Word reading," at least as far as common words. The unfamiliar words I still had to sound out, Phonics-style.

So sure-- the accomplished 6-year-old readers are indeed mostly using whole word, at least for common words. Spoiler alert: That's because they already went through the Phonics phase at age 4 or 5.

The Cargo Cult mistake of these "Educators" is to think that Whole Word reading is a shortcut to teaching reading. No-- Whole Word reading is the endpoint of learning to read. First you read letter by letter, then syllable by syllable (as you have begun to compile, in your Reading Memory, a large list of common syllables). Then you start just reading Whole Word.

You have to go through the letter-by-letter process to get to the Whole Word level. As I'm learning a new language myself at an older age, I've gone through this recently myself -- it took a long time for me to get a sense for how the French language worked in terms of grammar and orthology, but as I've read more and more, I can now read faster. I'm beginning to take "Sight Pictures" of sentences (well... not sentences, but at least clauses) as I long ago learned to do with English.

By denying kids their first step in reading -- teaching them to read letter-by-letter -- educators have not advanced Whole Word reading. They're retarded it. You can't do whole word until you're an ace at letter by letter.

They're making the same mistake here with this jackass method of teaching math. The method they're teaching is what I'd term a secondary insight. Yes, I know what they're trying to teach. I do this myself sometimes, to make life easier on myself.

Did someone have to teach me this? No, it's a simple enough insight once you are fluent with the basic memorized rules of math. Once "three plus four equals seven and three plus seven equals ten" is drilled into your head enough times, you naturally start thinking in terms (or can start thinking in such terms, if that's your preference) whereby you perform somewhat complex operations on simple math problems to make them easier for yourself.

It's unclear to me if this actually simplifies anything, though I do do this sort of thing, occasionally, myself.

But once again the "Experts" are demonstrating their Cargo Cult mentality when it comes to pedagogy. Because kids will start intuiting these things after they've mastered the rote-memorization and drilling routine of arithmetic and the times tables, hey, let's just cut out the middleman and teach the Advanced Secondary Insights explicitly! And skip all that tedious rote-memorization and drilling!

Again, as someone learning a language from scratch, I can tell you two things:

1. I despise rote memorization and drilling, those endless repetitions of stupid very basic sentences designed to teach one or three specific rules of grammar and spelling.

2. No matter how much I despise these things, and I do despise them, make no mistake -- this is the way you learn.

You cannot "intuit" the proper order of prepositions in a sentence. You cannot Cargo Cult your way there. You simply have to memorize the correct order of direct object pronoun, indirect object pronoun, reflexive pronoun, and "en" or "y" according to the type of sentence it is, and then write a whole bunch of stupid-ass sentences which employ the rules of pronoun placement.

It's hard, it's not fun, it's annoying as balls, I dread it every time I do it, and it frequently feels like it's insulting your intelligence... but it's not. It's how basic, elementary things are learned. And only once the basics are learned does a student begin gaining the power to make his own insights and deductions.

At least normally-intelligent students can make sound insights and deductions once they've learned the basics.

At the brain trust of the Department of Education, however, past experience counts for nothing at all, and we're just going to keep trying the same old shit ("Let's pretend all kids are high-learners and teach them the tricks that high-learners have intuited after years of competency at this task!") every single year to justify their paychecks.

No one gets an award for suggesting we try the old, established, well-proven methods of teaching. You only get awards and recognition for proposing new ones.

Whether they work or not. And hey, who cares if kids learn anyway? The important thing is that promotion.

I have seen the future, and the future is spelled Kah-Buum.

Teaching Kids How to Think and Other Lies: It is an article of faith among educators -- most of whom are not really very good at thinking themselves -- that they should be "teaching kids how to think," rather than engaging in rote repetition and drilling.

I don't believe you really can be "taught to think," not really. Like all other skills, it comes from practice.

At some point students can -- or must -- begin teaching themselves. At least, if they're to become true students.

All these jackass methods suffer not only from the Cargo Cult mentality, but actually retard "learning how to think," by attempting to codify deductions, rather than relying on students to make them on their own.

Look, let's be realistic: Some people just aren't going to be standout thinkers. By denying them the basics in favor of teaching them something that fundamentally just can't be taught (especially by people who aren't good at thinking themselves), you're both not teaching them the basics, and also not teaching them "how to think."

Yesterday I made a deduction that thrilled me. I wrote the word "penchant" in a post. I never really knew the strict English definition, but I knew, in a ballpark way, it meant "tendency towards."

I realized it's a French word. The French form their gerunds -- their "ing" versions of verbs, as the verb "to run" becomes the gerund noun "running" -- by adding an -ant to the word's stem.

So, "interesting" in English is "interessant" in French with an -ant stuck on the root of interester, the verb "to interest."

So I realized that "penchant" was probably a gerund form of a verb which must be "pencher." I think I've seen it before, but I never looked it up. Taking a guess at what the word must mean, I guessed pencher probably means "to incline," which would make the French (and English) definition of "penchant" "an inclining towards," or, in better English, "an inclination towards."

Then I looked it up. Pencher does in fact mean "to incline or rise," and finally, after a whole life of just vaguely knowing what the English word "penchant" means, I confirmed it does mean "inclining towards" (or "preferring" or "having a habit of" -- all derived from "inclining towards").

I was actually a little thrilled. I felt empowered.

But honestly-- how would you go about teaching that? Well, you can only tell students that -ant is our -ing. Once they've learned that (and had it drilled in their heads by reading French texts, in which -ant is very common), they can, at their own initiative, wonder things like "Gee, does 'penchant' imply a verb 'pencher'?"

But how do you make a lesson of this? At most, what you'd do is tuck this in the back of a chapter, in those "For Further Thought and Exploration" parts of the textbook, where you ask students to guess at the meaning of "pencher" based on their vague knowledge of the English "penchant."

But would you design a whole lesson around this mode of thought? Would you drill this sort of thing into kids' heads, like teachers are now doing with "number bonds"?

No. You give students the sandbox of basic information to play in, and hope they make sandcastles.

And that's how you learn to think. Not by a teacher telling you, "This is how you learn to think."

Posted by: Ace at 11:15 AM | Comments (533)
Post contains 1798 words, total size 11 kb.

1 Why doesn't the old way work any more? Oh, I forgot. CONTROL

Posted by: PAgirlinNC at January 21, 2014 11:16 AM (mPKiR)

2
Long before Idiocracy was Cyril Kornbluth's The Marching Morons.

Look it up.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:19 AM (gYIst)

3 Trying to slip propaganda and PC into, even, math is a difficult task. So, this is what you get.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:19 AM (IXrOn)

4 A sub-literate populace, bereft of critical thinking skills and with an over-developed sense of the need for immediate gratification and endless "attaboys," is easier to control and manipulate. They are deliberately churning out dumbasses.

Posted by: Cranky J Anne at January 21, 2014 11:20 AM (DAZSc)

5 No one gets an award for suggesting we try the old, established, well-proven methods of teaching. You only get awards and recognition for proposing new ones.

And that's it in a nutshell. Teachers, excuse me, educators, know that those in the know look down on their degrees. I mean, what's new in education that requires a PhD? It isn't like people have changed in the last decade. They still learn pretty much the way they did when they were picking nits out of each others residual fur. So people with worthless Education PhDs have to keep proposing something new, something cutting edge, to justify their claims to be among the elite. Unfortunately, their "ideas" are complete nonsense.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 11:21 AM (6TB1Z)

6 new innovations in Whole Word learning (reading a word at a glance)
-
H.G. Wells speculated that the reason that the west generally outperformed the Orient is that the Orient's system if writing characters was so complicated that the average person could not be literate in any meaningful way. Whole Language is re-inventing the wheel but the new wheel is not as good as the old wheel.

I remember seeing many years ago an illiterate middle aged black woman who was finally taught phonics and she lerned to read. She said, "I always knew there was some secret they weren't telling me."

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 11:22 AM (XUKZU)

7 The thing is, once you know that 7 + 7 = 14, then you have the basis of 2 * 7 = 14, and can now memorize the multiplication tables.

Posted by: Reno_Dave at January 21, 2014 11:22 AM (bsDPd)

8 When the kid was in first grade they didn't teach spelling. It was just spell crap the way you think it should be spelled. So for his paper on favorite meal he spelled pizza and cock instead of coke. We still laugh.

Posted by: NCKate at January 21, 2014 11:22 AM (aqdqx)

9 Remember to show your work, Ace.

Posted by: garrett at January 21, 2014 11:23 AM (3mMDl)

10 They do the same thing with drilling of facts and basic foundational knowledge. An education is built on those things. Once you're pretty well versed in those things, you can advance to logic and reasoning (synthesis of knowledge). Teachers are being scammed into believing that "learning how to learn" and logic and reasoning are the basis of knowledge. NO! That's the basis of new knowledge. Before you get there you have to learn the foundational stuff.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:23 AM (P7Wsr)

11 is sounding out the word "BAKERY" when we were getting some bread or donuts. My parents were pretty impressed. (I was nineteen years old.) ******** LOL!

Posted by: Teleprompter Feed Crew at January 21, 2014 11:23 AM (RJMhd)

12 We had a long argument/discussion about the CC bull this past weak end. We have actual supporters of this BS here.

My view is that it is just more federal control of the schools which is unconstitutional. The other thing is that I taught adult education for 8 years and was a certified instructor. I had to attend qualification classes and annual requal classes done by "professional educators who come up with shit like this.

In the 8 years I did this I never met a product of the professional educator schools who was not dumber than a creosote post.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 21, 2014 11:23 AM (T2V/1)

13 They can just say the word "horse" is horse and keep saying it until these stupid kids start learning that "horse" means horse. I can't help myself on this one. The most beautiful horse in the world. http://imgur.com/9fP3v

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:23 AM (IXrOn)

14 H.G. Wells speculated that the reason that the west generally outperformed the Orient is that the Orient's system if writing characters was so complicated that the average person could not be literate in any meaningful way.

I heard a story on NPR once that claimed that Asians are good at math because their language is sing-songy, and hence musical, and as we all know, music and math are interconnected. Seriously.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 11:24 AM (6TB1Z)

15 They tried this before with Everyday Math. The real purpose is to introduce methods so bizarre the parents can no longer help with homework. Pretty soon, parents look stupid, and only teachers have credibility.

Posted by: little mary at January 21, 2014 11:24 AM (DOwhT)

16 The worst thing we did as a country was to create the department of education in the 70's Reagan should have killed it as his first act in office. Since its creation the amount of spending has increased exponentially while actual real world results have remained flat and even gone down in certain demographics.

Posted by: Kreplach at January 21, 2014 11:24 AM (S8y+1)

17 This is your best. post. EVER. Ace! welcome to my life. I had to teach my children phonics on my own, in my spare time after work and their moronic homework . . . but they learned to read (entirely from me, not kidding). I have to teach them normal math algos on my own, in my spare time after work. IT SUCKS. Ridiculous. What the holy HELL do they do in school?!?! Part of CCS Math - Everyday Math curriculum - is that we parents are tasked with teaching the times tables outside of school. Cos they don't gots time for that in school! and this isn't public freaking school either. jesus wept

Posted by: Black Orchid at January 21, 2014 11:24 AM (EZNxq)

18 I took a class called "Number Sense" in 8th grade that taught all those shortcuts. I still use those shortcuts to this day. That said, they only work if you have a solid foundation in basic math first. I went to public schools for prek-12, but I was lucky and had phenomenal math teachers all throughout except for high school calculus. She was an idiot. So I guess I agree with the basis of your post, Ace.

Posted by: L, elle at January 21, 2014 11:25 AM (0xqKe)

19 Here's the problem: The shortcut/easier path of computation is actually more complicated than just learning that seven plus seven equals fourteen.

I don't know. In certain situations, it is probably makes sense to find a number that will "top off" another number to the nearest multiple of ten and then add the remainder to get your final sum.

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:25 AM (GQ8sn)

20 when they got rid of Phonics (sounding a word out, letter by letter), and doomed a generation to being bad readers. ---- Bad readers or bad speakers?

Posted by: RioBravo at January 21, 2014 11:25 AM (MJ2yn)

21
What difference does it make?

Posted by: Hillary Clinton, vaginatarian at January 21, 2014 11:25 AM (bkTIc)

3 words Ace: Project Follow Through. Once you understand what happened there, you will never be surprised by the stupidity/arrogance of professional educators because you will accept public education isn't a means to educate our children. It is a jobs program for the otherwise unemployable.

The ultimate blue-on-blue fight will be when an enterprising plantiff's attorney starts suing teachers for malpractice.

Posted by: Joe at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (QFnhZ)

23 No one gets an award for suggesting we try the old, established, well-proven methods of teaching. You only get awards and recognition for proposing new ones. Take note. This is true of investing. The most sound method of investing, that makes 11% interest year in and year out, is a spider index fund based on the Fortune 500. Some investment super-awesome dudes can make 30% sometimes, but if you average their performance over time, the spider-index fund wins. But you don't sell financial magazines saying that over and over.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (P7Wsr)

24 What the hell is that??!?
I went through four years of engineering college level math, and never encountered anything so confusing. What are they trying to convey, and why? Holy crap.
No wonder we are doomed.

Posted by: Leonard Pinth-Garnell at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (LO5eB)

25 little mary is exactly right: Pretty soon, parents look stupid, and only teachers have credibility. And not only that, but the grading! OMG the rubrics! they make them completely unintelligible so I can't argue them at all.

Posted by: Black Orchid at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (EZNxq)

26 I heard a story on NPR once that claimed that Asians are good at math because their language is sing-songy, and hence musical, and as we all know, music and math are interconnected. Seriously.

I don't know about that.

Asians are good at math because their parents beat the ever loving piss out of them if they brought home anything lower than an A+.

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (GQ8sn)

27 Yes. Yes. Yes! I went to school in Colorado which was one of the absolute worst states for the Whole Word crap. I was reading before kindergarten, so that part didn't impact me. But...the spelling. Oh, God, the spelling. Y'all, I still have to change the word I was planning to use some times because I can't get it close enough for spell check to figure out wtf I'm trying to say. Awful. Now I will say this, this math program is similar (although not exact) to the Singapore math's method of teaching mental math. The difference is that the Singapore math uses this technique for quickly doing problems that use larger numbers.

Posted by: Lauren at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (hFL/3)

28 You cannot Cargo Cult your way there. ******** If I was into bumper stickers I would plaster that on a car and drive around San Fran.

Posted by: Teleprompter Feed Crew at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (RJMhd)

29 Trying to slip propaganda and PC into, even, math is a difficult task.

Looks pretty easy to me.
http://www.radicalmath.org/

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (ZKzrr)

30 One of my earliest recollections (maybe my earliest) is sounding out the word "BAKERY" when we were getting some bread or donuts. My parents were pretty impressed. (I was nineteen years old.) heh. yeah, some of us read the post

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (IXrOn)

31 you want your kids to learn math? kumon

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 37 days until spring training at January 21, 2014 11:26 AM (u8GsB)

32 Gee math was a lot easier when I was growing up.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 21, 2014 11:27 AM (nzKvP)

33 Here's the problem: The shortcut/easier path of computation is actually
more complicated than just learning that seven plus seven equals
fourteen.

It's like getting a license to drive a Semi before you can ride a bicycle.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 11:27 AM (6TB1Z)

34 At the brain trust of the Department of Education, however, past experience counts for nothing at all, Past experience is racist, and also right wing. ItÂ’s way to close to acknowledging that there are systemic processes behind everything, and that just wanting to (for example, just wanting to read words)Â… wonÂ’t actually work.

Posted by: Paid for by Citizens for Clyde the Orangutan at January 21, 2014 11:27 AM (QF8uk)

35 you want your kids to learn math? kumon Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 37 days until spring training at January 21, 2014 03:26 PM (u8GsB) Yeah but it used to be free in public school

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 21, 2014 11:27 AM (nzKvP)

36 I have a B.A. in math, and I sometime add numbers like this in my head, but I would never teach kids this method. For starters, you have to know that 7 = 3 + 4 or else this doesn't work. And if you know that, why not memorize that 7 + 7 = 14?

Posted by: Attila (Pillage Idiot) at January 21, 2014 11:27 AM (PQt9W)

"The thing is, once you know that 7 + 7 = 14, then you have the basis of 2 * 7 = 14, and can now memorize the multiplication tables."

I'm sure there is something even dumber coming for multiplication!

When it takes longer to read the stupid made up question than it does to answer 7+7, you are no longer teaching anything useful.

Posted by: Lea at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (lIU4e)

Its like Basic Math Deconstruction, right?

But I do think I sometimes do "word bonds" on some of the longer or duller posts, like "football football cheerleaders elbows .... race to the bottom and post something related to none of the above"

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (3ZtZW)

39 You cannot "intuit" the proper order of prepositions in a sentence.
-
This is how I am fighting in my struggle with the Latin language. I do have a grammar book that I am slowly progressing in. (Latin Via Ovid by Goldman and Nyenhuis) but I also have a parallel Bible in English and Latin. I read the Latin and understand as much as I can then I check myself for the actual meaning. When I started I could barely get through a verse. Now I am sometimes able to read an entire page or even chapter. When I am reading the Bible, I am reading for meaning and hoping the grammar is learned by osmosis. In the Ovid, grammar is the main goal.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (XUKZU)

40 And there are the Common Core Math word problems that are straight-up social justice indoctrination.

Common Core is about control: nationalizing school curricula so that "their" information is taught, like Obama worship, and the stuff they don't like is either skipped or so slanted as to lose it's meaning, such as teaching the Gettysburg Address without ever mentioning the Civil War (the whole context).

Posted by: Lizzy at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (POpqt)

41 Another fun feature of common core is that it makes comparison of standardized test score data worthless. By which I mean, you cannot compare the scores of state/federally mandated test from previous years to the new common core based tests because the cover completely different things. As such, we now have a bunch of previous test scores, used for "accountability" that we can't use as comparison points. So congrats you just wasted tens of millions of dollars. Further, the initial scores on common core will be low since most of the tests were given before the material was in place. What this really means is that you will have a bunch of administrators,particularly those in shitty urban school districts, who will tout a 3 percentage point increase in average reading or math scores as an amazing achievement. Based on these "achievements" the politicians will give themselves all sorts of kudos, and otherwise terrible administrators will get new fancy promotions to bigger school school districts and state and federal positions. Thus ruining public education even further. See Arne Duncan as a prior example

Posted by: taylork at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (ppNDn)

42 "Hey, here's my journal article on how to......"

And thus begins the collapse of western philosophy, education, and science.

Seven plus seven is fourteen EVERY DAMN TIME.

The sun, a thermonuclear reactor ONE MILLION TIMES THE SIZE OF THIS PLANET, is the primary determinant of our climate.

55 million abortions in 40 years IS NOT A COGNATE OF ANY KIND OF FREEDOM.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (ltdV/)

43 When it takes longer to read the stupid made up question than it does to answer 7+7, you are no longer teaching anything useful. Posted by: Lea at January 21, 2014 03:28 PM (lIU4e) BINGO

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 21, 2014 11:28 AM (nzKvP)

44 Ace plus also the SPIRALING Spiraling in math is a concept wherein they take these little tiny children from concept to concept - like, two days of learning to tell time, then two days of geometry, then two days of coins . . . just a touch! no mastery! then in a few months they "spiral" back for a few more days! It's ASININE

Posted by: Black Orchid at January 21, 2014 11:29 AM (EZNxq)

45 Yet, they still can't figure out why large numbers of students in mostly urban areas, the same urban areas which are test beds for this nonsense, continue to have below average graduation rates.

Liberal- progressive agenda+teachers unions+Cult Education Practices=FAIL

Posted by: Marcus T at January 21, 2014 11:29 AM (GGCsk)

I do math in my head by utilizing multiples of ten though I was not taught that system.

For example , If I have a payment of 33.00 a month I automatically add 330 plus 66 = 396 to get my yearly amount.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 11:29 AM (m2CN7)

47 I use those type of short cuts all the time. They may be more complicated but they can be done faster in your head if you have no paper or time.

That said, those shouldn't be taught until the student has a firm grasp of the basics and a rote memorization of the addition, subtraction and multiplication tables up to at least the 10's (cause you can use multiple from there as they repeat)

Sets and stuff usually aren't taught until Junior high or late elementary.

Do you know the grade level this test was for?

(and by the way, the reading thing I totally agree with. Decoding is decoding and we have made rules about how to go about it. Letting someone make their own rules up is a recipe for disaster and confusion.)

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Unexpurgated Edition) at January 21, 2014 11:29 AM (LSDdO)

48 When it takes longer to read the stupid made up question than it does to answer 7+7, you are no longer teaching anything useful. Posted by: Lea at January 21, 2014 03:28 PM (lIU4e) ^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 37 days until spring training at January 21, 2014 11:29 AM (u8GsB)

49 In certain situations, it is probably makes sense to find a number that will "top off" another number to the nearest multiple of ten and then add the remainder to get your final sum.

That's how my niece and nephews count points in UNO. Hrm.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 11:30 AM (ZKzrr)

50 Ace: "No one gets an award for suggesting we try the old, established, well-proven methods of teaching. You only get awards and recognition for proposing new ones."

Bingo. Forget the sophisticated, political undermining of thought theories of Common Core. There will always be disagreement on such theories. Where there won't be disagreement is that industry truism: awards are given for the novel.

Just like in the sciences, old and boring doesn't get the attention. You make a name for yourself in pushing groupthink to accept your own invention, so you better invent (which is to say "publish"). And then sell the hell out of it.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 21, 2014 11:30 AM (eHIJJ)

51 If there's one subject in school that I absolutely must make my son excel at, it is math. I'm a math guy and I go over every bit of math homework my son brings home and I deconstruct everything. I've shown him basic algebra before he learned it in school so he could figure out problems that stumped the rest of his class.

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:30 AM (GQ8sn)

52 East asians are good at math mostly due to genetics and having high IQs. Notice that east asians born and raised in America and learning English as their only language continue to outperform other ethnic groups in math and science. Notice that they don't outperform in english. South Asians have been immigrating to America only quite recently, yet already we see a good # of south asian rising to the top in politics, comedy, literature, and the arts. Culture is more a product of genetics. Finns are introverts not because Finnish culture is introverted, but because Finns have genes for introversion. Finnish culture is a product of Finnish genes.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 11:30 AM (ZPrif)

53 Education always gives Ace a boner. He must be banging a teacher.

Posted by: Judge Pug at January 21, 2014 11:31 AM (E4MKN)

<<No one gets an award for suggesting we try the old, established, well-proven methods of teaching. You only get awards and recognition for proposing new ones.>>

I would say this is the same problem with the navy admiralty and the LCS debacle, or Air Force Generals and the F-35.

Or even the same problem in general with people in charge who need accolades to make them feel warm inside because mommy didn't pay enough attention to them.

No one got an award for being an efficient administrator - which is exactly what we need to change. If you can do more with less you get a pat on the back. If you can barely do more with vastly more you get banished to idiot island.

Posted by: Chris M at January 21, 2014 11:31 AM (nyxv/)

(I was nineteen years old.)

dude......I needed that laugh today. Seriously.

Posted by: eleven at January 21, 2014 11:31 AM (fsLdt)

56 The name's Bond. Number Bond.

Posted by: Common Core 00 Agent at January 21, 2014 11:31 AM (RUvjp)

"It's unclear to me if this actually simplifies anything, though I do do this sort of thing, occasionally, myself."

I do this, especially when I am multiplying large numbers in my head. I break it down into smaller less-complex pieces, and then add the resulting sums together. It seems to work for me.

But I agree that memorizing the mechanical rules of arithmateics - the times table - is something that needs to be done before higher level process can be accomplished. The foundation must be set before the walls are erected.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Many Styles of Ragetwitch Floor Mats to Choose From! at January 21, 2014 11:32 AM (hLRSq)

58 Aw, EC you sound like a good daddy. I hope you're son gets all your smarts

Posted by: L, elle at January 21, 2014 11:32 AM (0xqKe)

59 In certain situations, it is probably makes sense to find a number that
will "top off" another number to the nearest multiple of ten and then
add the remainder to get your final sum.

That's how my niece and nephews count points in UNO. Hrm.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 03:30 PM (ZKzrr)

I'm just saying in certain situations it makes sense to do that. Which situations? I couldn't tell you offhand right now.

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:32 AM (GQ8sn)

38 + 56 in my head is 80 plus 14 = 94. Its instantaneous.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 11:32 AM (m2CN7)

61 We all know new is always better, right. In a couple of decades, if this crap keeps up, the literacy rate in this country will be very low. And do these genii consider that the old way of doing things produced the incredible science and technology (and even literature before that was postmodern-ized)? This is the problem with fields like this. They have to keep coming up with "novel" crap to justify their existence..

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:33 AM (r+7wo)

62 Ka-hobo or buum? I never got the phonics edition.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humantiarian at January 21, 2014 11:33 AM (HVff2)

63 the problem shown in the post was from a 9 year old's worksheet, I believe? another fun thing is the word problems (complete with poor grammar!) starting in kindergarten math. so much fun!

Posted by: Black Orchid at January 21, 2014 11:33 AM (EZNxq)

64 60 38 + 56 in my head is 80 plus 14 = 94. Its instantaneous. Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 03:32 PM (m2CN7) lol

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 37 days until spring training at January 21, 2014 11:34 AM (u8GsB)

65 In a couple of decades, if this crap keeps up, the literacy rate in this country will be very low.

I think that's kind of their goal here.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 11:34 AM (ZKzrr)

66
The ONLY reason you'd screw with something so rudimentary as teaching arithmetic is To Screw With Normal.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:34 AM (gYIst)

67 ;">Common Core 3rd Grade-level math question:

Juanita wants to give bags of stickers to her friends.
She wants to give the same number of stickers to each friend.
SheÂ’s not sure if she needs 4 bags or 6 bags of stickers.
How many stickers could she buy so there are no stickers left over?

Posted by: Lizzy at January 21, 2014 11:34 AM (POpqt)

68 This reminds me of the New Math crap they were teaching in the 70's, which was all based on set theory. It might have had some good things in it for a middle- schooler but it was a complete disaster for the elementary grades. You had a whole cohort of kids who couldn't calculate ANYTHING. Of course, these fads are self-correcting. After the textbook crowd have made their millions selling the New!!! Improved!!! math books, they can make even more millions selling their Oopsy-That-Didn't-Work-Let's-Go-Back-to-Basics ones. And so it goes.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 11:34 AM (dfYL9)

69 Aw, EC you sound like a good daddy.

I hope you're son gets all your smarts

Posted by: L, elle at January 21, 2014 03:32 PM (0xqKe)

Knowing how to count is one skill that liberals should not be able to fuck with. It is a meager comfort to know that no matter how hard they try, they will NEVER be able to make 1+1=3. They are still math's bitch.

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:34 AM (GQ8sn)

70 Juanita wants to give bags of stickers to her friends. She wants to give the same number of stickers to each friend. SheÂ’s not sure if she needs 4 bags or 6 bags of stickers. How many stickers could she buy so there are no stickers left over? Posted by: Lizzy at January 21, 2014 03:34 PM (POpqt) stickers? you mean knives? ////

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 37 days until spring training at January 21, 2014 11:35 AM (u8GsB)

71
remember the Chinese ABACUS?

Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at January 21, 2014 11:35 AM (gYIst)

72 Yet, they still can't figure out why large numbers of students in mostly urban areas, the same urban areas which are test beds for this nonsense, continue to have below average graduation rates. It's really not even close to that simple. Poor people's lives are chaotic. They're living from one emergency to another. The kids get shuffled around from Mom to Dad to Auntie to Grandma to the State and back. None of them cares about the kids. The kids don't get asked about their homework. If the teacher calls home, the "parent" or "guardian" ducks them. Nobody makes sure they're home by ten. Nobody teaches them about hard work or enterprise or not living in chaos by making good decisions and planning. That's why the kids fail. If anyone cared, they'd drop everything, and march their butts out of the hell-holes like Vietnamese refugees.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:35 AM (P7Wsr)

73 71 remember the Chinese ABACUS? Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at January 21, 2014 03:35 PM (gYIst) i loved my abacus....that was fun

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 37 days until spring training at January 21, 2014 11:35 AM (u8GsB)

74 Leaving the actual sentence of instruction off works just fine. Were the instructions farmed out to a call center in India?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:36 AM (IXrOn)

75 I don't believe most education doctorates are PhDs. I think they get DEd degrees or something like that. It's not an academic degree, I don't think. And sorry to be a snob, but these people just devalue my real PhD in a real field. Ugh. When you don't have to be particularly booksmart to get a doctorate, sorry, but to me, that doctorate doesn't mean much.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:36 AM (r+7wo)

76 "One of my earliest recollections (maybe my earliest) is sounding out the word "BAKERY" when we were getting some bread or donuts. My parents were pretty impressed. (I was nineteen years old.)" Funny.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at January 21, 2014 11:36 AM (oFCZn)

"In certain situations, it is probably makes sense to find a number that will "top off" another number to the nearest multiple of ten "

I often figure discounts using a factor of ten, but I think Ace's point is that you dont START learning that way. You only do that later, when you already have a good enough basis to understand how that works.

Posted by: Lea at January 21, 2014 11:36 AM (lIU4e)

78 I saw Common Core open for Johnny Can't Read Good, last summer.

Oh, that floodlight story in the sidebar is hilarious.

Posted by: Dr Spank at January 21, 2014 11:36 AM (P1WNR)

Ace,

This is entirely true. Mathematics requires simple principles/building blocks. Multiplication tables thru 12x12. Addition and subtraction are the same, rote memory of all outcomes between 1 and 9.

Simple division just reverses rote multiplication knowledge.

It is when we get into fractions, long division and higher multiplication that logic and deeper thinking develop.

There is no need to make acquiring a knowledge of the BASIC BUILDING BLOCKS harder!

Posted by: prescient11 at January 21, 2014 11:37 AM (tVTLU)

80 How many
stickers could she buy so there are no stickers left over?

12.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 11:37 AM (ZKzrr)

81

How many years now has the Left been winning on "OMG, class sizes!"?

Yeah, class sizes. That's the problem.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:37 AM (gYIst)

>>>>38 + 56 in my head is 80 plus 14 = 94. Its instantaneous.

MATH WITCH

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 11:37 AM (3ZtZW)

83 I learned to read so early, I don't recall how I did it. I do recall phonics later on, but I went to Catholic schools, not those namby-pamby public youth warehouses. The pattern here, of course, is that inferior crap that would never survive on its own merits is getting forced upon us through government. Same with "health coverage", same with electric cars, same with crap jobs, same with...well, we could go on...

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 11:38 AM (naUcP)

84 So proudly the header reads: NYS Common Core Mathematics Curriculum

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:38 AM (IXrOn)

85 Lizzy:

Juanita doesn't need to buy any stickers.

She has no friends because she's an evil TEA party conservative hater.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Unexpurgated Edition) at January 21, 2014 11:39 AM (LSDdO)

86 Part of the problem, unfortunately, is that 25-30 years ago, when today's "leaders in education" were in college, they were the ditzy-assed idiots that took education because it wasn't taxing. I remember being in the library at school, working through some issues with a genetics experiment gone awol (I created a mutation somehow), with another friend working with accounting. A friend who was in education came up, and loudly announced, "Y'all, I had the worst day today in class. White sauces are SOOOOO HARD!!!!!" That statement there convinced me that the education department was full of fucking idiots. And sadly, a lot of intelligent people must have agreed with me, because schools are filled with these idiots, who think Jakarta is a nation, (son's geography teacher) and egregious is pronouced e-greg-e-us.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 11:39 AM (EvHC8)

87 38 + 56 in my head is 80 plus 14 = 94. Its instantaneous. yep, that's how I do math in my head, too I break out the units.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:39 AM (IXrOn)

88 The pattern here, of course, is that inferior crap that would never survive on its own merits is getting forced upon us through government And not just our government but the U.N. as well

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at January 21, 2014 11:39 AM (R8hU8)

89 I learned to read because my Mom propped me up in her lap and read to me out of a book she was holding so we could both see it. She THOUGHT she was just reading to me. But at age 3 I was reading street signs and billboards out loud. I didn't get phonics until I was in 2nd grade - and thus mispronounced a lot of words.

Posted by: RonF at January 21, 2014 11:40 AM (l8nW6)

90 "Y'all, I had the worst day today in class. White sauces are SOOOOO HARD!!!!!" They were cooking?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:40 AM (P7Wsr)

Breaking: Former VA Gov. Bob McDonnell and wife indicted on 14 felony counts in connection with receiving gifts.

http://bit.ly/1enYf6E

Posted by: RushBabe at January 21, 2014 11:40 AM (hrIP5)

92 Funny, when I was in college (in the US), we students from deepest darkest Africa generally vastly outperformed the natives. And we didn't have any fancy methods or handholding either. School was harsh and hard. Although it seems education there is going to crap like do many other things.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:40 AM (r+7wo)

93 In middle school in the 90s, I was put in an Algebra class teaching math concepts of x and y via a new method of these weird plastic blocks. I'm a visual learner but I did not get it, at all, got a C in the class. The next semester I retook the class from a different teacher not doing the block nonsense, teaching it a more traditional way, got I think either a B- or A.

Nowadays, the way common core is structured, there would be no alternative teaching class for me to switch to; it would be all Algebra block classes all the way down. We are going to have lots of kids screwed over by this nonsense.

Posted by: LizLem at January 21, 2014 11:40 AM (BF+2f)

94 I just noticed....

That Lauren chick in the Twitchy link talks like MWR and has sharp elbows too. My tired, old eyes still work!

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (GQ8sn)

A common core teacher walks into a bar and orders a scotch and a burger.

The bartender says , " That will be seven plus three plus four dollars. "

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (m2CN7)

96 I didn't get phonics until I was in 2nd grade - and thus mispronounced a lot of words. I feel your pain. --Barry "corpse-man" Obama

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (P7Wsr)

97 You richly deserve to get some guff (and I can say from whom, too) for comparing that fuzzy humanist Reading thing to the noble heights of Mathematick. Can't you see that memorizing times-tables is of a fundamentally higher order than sounding out those sliding phonics sticks?

When we needed a pretty-much-live-in babysitter, wife and self realized we wouldn't have enough quality time to do all the reading-to that a proper late infancy deserves, and so insisted that a certain number of pages/books per day be included in the time spent.

We had what we called "an au-pair girl from the East Side." All unbeknownst, in requiring the picture-book time, we taught two people to read. The kid caught right on, and the live-in took a little longer but improved her reading skill so much she decided to complete the GED. Then I, a mere philosophy graduate, taught her algebra of about the level seen above, and that got her into the army.

Incidentally, algebra is what they're trying to do there. I remember seeing this shit when the New Math came out -- it was all "set theory" then. For some reason they think that understanding what algebra is about, without actually being able to add and subtract first, is going to give us that much-needed leg up on the Chinese.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (xq1UY)

>>>That statement there convinced me that the education department was full of fucking idiots.

"We make a *difference*!!"

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (3ZtZW)

99
If someone was funny they'd mock Common Core with Jethro Bodine teaching math.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (gYIst)

100 You cannot "intuit" the proper order of prepositions in a sentence While the Eskimo have numerous words for 'snow', too many to count in fact, they have only two prepositions.

Posted by: garrett at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (3mMDl)

101 It doesn't help that most teachers these days are ckufing airheads that can barely breathe let alone hold an intelligent thought in their heads.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (oFCZn)

102 Remember in colleges across the country education majors are learning via tried and true methods of learning completely new methods of teaching that don't fucking work.

Posted by: Buzzion at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (vbS9A)

103 90-yes. Because elementary ed.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 11:41 AM (EvHC8)

104 I learned my guzintas in the sixth grade.

Posted by: Jethro Bodine at January 21, 2014 11:42 AM (m2Izr)

105 I take the time to go to every IEP meeting for Little VIA.

I frequently am told how he needs to apply himself.
I frequently reply with "Why? Every time he fails to perform, you guys come up with another way to grade him that allows him to succeed. Let's try holding him accountable for his choices, and see what happens".

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice, heteronormative vagitarien at January 21, 2014 11:42 AM (kFCo1)

106 When I was in third grade in Catholic school, the Sisters beat it into me that 7 + 7 = 7 + ((3/7)*7)+((2/3)*(7-1)) = 7 + 21/7 + ((2/3)*6) = 7 + 3 + 12/3 = 10 + 4

Posted by: Reno_Dave at January 21, 2014 11:42 AM (bsDPd)

107
Second look at Bob McDonnell for '16?

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (gYIst)

108 Breaking: Former VA Gov. Bob McDonnell and wife indicted on 14 felony counts in connection with receiving gifts.

Meanwhile, Jon Corzine still can't remember stuff.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (ltdV/)

109 When it takes longer to read the stupid made up question than it does to answer 7+7, you are no longer teaching anything useful. Posted by: Lea at January 21, 2014 03:28 PM (lIU4e) EXACTLY.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (r+7wo)

110 Obama math: the First Lady and I are well paid plus we get free vacations and other perqs that you are all paying for. You make $100,000 a year. We need to take your money because income inequality.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (XUKZU)

111 Yeah, I've been putting off the addition and subtraction flashcards, knowing my kids would find them a bore. Unfortunately, my daughter is *bored as hell* with her math drills, because all the repetitive counting makes every worksheet take about four times longer. So, flashcards. Memorization. Taking the long view.

Posted by: Cameo Appearance at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (R8yKQ)

112 I learned to read because my Mom propped me up in her lap and read to me out of a book she was holding so we could both see it. She THOUGHT she was just reading to me. But at age 3 I was reading street signs and billboards out loud. I didn't get phonics until I was in 2nd grade - and thus mispronounced a lot of words. Want to teach your kids to read? Do that. And - buy them books (even if you have to pick up a bunch of used Dick and Jane books up at a garage sale, which we did). And read yourself so that they imitiate you (as they do in everything else you do). Have books in every room. And don't buy them a video game machine or computer games or a stack of movie DVDs no matter how much they tell you they hate you if you don't.

Posted by: RonF at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (l8nW6)

113 A biz owner told me he had two 20-somethings in his store jazzing with him about getting hired. The boss asks, "How much is 27 plus 11? One said, "Let me get my phone out." Guy said, no, and looked at the other young man. He couldn't add the two number in his head either. Biz owner did say their self-esteem was good though.

Posted by: Meremortal at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (1Y+hH)

114 Anecdotally, I remember going through one of these forced educational phases in first year college English. Now what I read and wrote in advanced English in high-school was several times more demanding than my introductory college classes. IOW I had mastered composition already. But a year of "English" was required for a degree.

I had to suffer through all this "higher-level" bullsh*t to relearn "how to write." I think, after all these years, it was perhaps the most idiotic course I've ever taken. Essentially the goal was to unlearn all that I had learned in order to adopt a more sophisticated, analytical procedure to accomplish what I had already accomplished in Jr. High and High School. (I think it was called CACTIP for short, but it's been a few years). Complete waste of time, ultimately. I didn't do any of the work according to procedure; I just wrote like I always had and left the books essentially unopened. What I did was what was forced upon me/us during lecture/classtime.

One of the easiest but most wasteful A's I ever got. I should've received a refund.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (eHIJJ)

115 This is the New York State implementation of Common Cores. Common Cores is only an outline. Yes, I have had my hands on many CC outlines for instruction. They basically provide a set of bullet points, if you will, for the teacher. New York State is the last state in the country I'd want my kids to be educated in. If anyone can f*** CC up, they will.

Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at January 21, 2014 11:43 AM (Ki8MM)

116 I took all the required teacher education classes in the same semester. Pure horse shit. Studied 2 hours for all my finals combined. 4.0. The kids in teacher education are damn near useless for the most part. Ignorant and weak minded. That was my impression. And no, I never did send in for my teacher's certificate.

Posted by: maddogg at January 21, 2014 11:44 AM (xWW96)

117 Posted by: RonF at January 21, 2014 03:43 PM (l8nW6) My Mom did that too. By 3rd grade I tested as reading at an 8th grade level.

Posted by: Meremortal at January 21, 2014 11:44 AM (1Y+hH)

118 Don't you just love those with PHDs in education? They know just about everything, but they couldn't work as a cashier when the computer goes down, because they would be unable to give the correct change without said computer telling them what it is

Posted by: Ma Bell at January 21, 2014 11:44 AM (RLdcX)

119 When the kid was in first grade they didn't teach spelling. It was just spell crap the way you think it should be spelled. So for his paper on favorite meal he spelled pizza and cock instead of coke. We still laugh.

I believe that program was called "Writing to Read." My mom worked in an elementary school cafeteria during that time, and she was appalled by the spelling of the third graders.

Posted by: no good deed at January 21, 2014 11:45 AM (vBhbc)

120 The real purposed of grades 1 - 12 is to give people the basic intellectual tool set that mankind has developed. When you take those tools away what you have left is an intelligent animal. That is what the elites hope to do to people; turn them into draft animals.

Have I ever said how much I hate Liberals?

Posted by: [/i] [/s] [/u] [/b] An Observation at January 21, 2014 11:45 AM (ylhEn)

121 Seno eht ot gnidda ro net gnikam yb neves yb tnuoc-piks uoy pleh ot sdnob rebmun esu. Oh, now I get it.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at January 21, 2014 11:45 AM (IXrOn)

122 While the Eskimo have numerous words for 'snow', too many to count in fact, they have only two prepositions.
-
Do you come here often? and Heaven must be missing an angel.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 11:45 AM (XUKZU)

123

Ace. Please send this post to the Oklahoma governor's office. I like Mary Fallin, but she's about to kill our education system with this drek.

I'm serious. Please send this post to her.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 11:45 AM (lp37X)

124 Anybody remember being taught ITA (Initial Teaching Alphabet)? We learned to read in the first grade using this semi-phonetic alphabet that used conjoined consonants and diphthongs, and it really did help me see patterns and connections. Looking at it now in Wikipedia, it resembles something you'd see in the appendices at the end of Lord of the Rings. This was one of the rate successes of the new methods being taught in the 60's. I was a victim of "New Math", and as noted earlier, the prescribed method for doing equations effectively severed continuity with my parents' generation. My dad, who studied engineering, would mutter "What is this crap?!".

Posted by: All Hail Eris at January 21, 2014 11:45 AM (QBm1P)

125 86 ----".... schools are filled with these idiots..." Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 03:39 PM (EvHC

----------------------------- Most of the ones who are NOT idiots burn out pretty quickly, more from the stress of working with idiotic administrators and colleagues than anything else. They either flee to private schools and colleges or get out of the teaching field altogether.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (dfYL9)

126 I don't mind spiraling. It helps keep kids from getting completely overwhelmed if they're not initially great at a certain skill. Plus, as a homeschooler, I can make the decision to not make the kids do the spiraled review problems once they have mastery. I can see how it would be super frustrating for everyone involved in a school setting though.

Posted by: Lauren at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (hFL/3)

127 Yes, the high-lanrneig, early-raednig kids are in fact using the Wlohe Wrod raenidg mhoted, just as you, reading that gibberish I just wrote, employed Whole Word reading -- looking at the first and last letters of the word and using context and years and years of experience in how the written language works, and what words are expected to come in which place in a sentence to read, fairly easily, a bunch of misspelled words as the words I intended. Huk'ed on fonics werkd fer me.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (CRyse)

128 Meanwhile, Jon Corzine still can't remember stuff.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 21, 2014 03:43 PM (ltdV/)

Well Corzine and company only stole a few billions while McDonnell is an evil Republican.

See the difference?

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Unexpurgated Edition) at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (LSDdO)

129
Biz owner did say their self-esteem was good though.

I'll bet. Life is good when you don't know what you don't know.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (gYIst)

130 Thank Gaia for Common Core. The more mal-educated stupid people the better for us Democrats.

Posted by: DNC at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (mETGQ)

131 You cannot "intuit" the proper order of prepositions in a sentence. You cannot Cargo Cult your way there. You simply have to memorize the correct order of direct object pronoun, indirect object pronoun, reflexive pronoun, and "en" or "y" according to the type of sentence it is, and then write a whole bunch of stupid-ass sentences which employ the rules of pronoun placement. In fact, everybody "intuits" the position of prepositions (and all the other aspects of grammar) in their native language. In case you hadn't noticed, illiterates speak English. What you're talking about, presumably, is "proper" language, which is a social decision about what sorts of language are considered better than others. Talk to a six-year-old. You'll find they have a perfect fine idea of regular English word order etc. without having the least understanding of abstract grammar. Perhaps you're talking about learning a foreign language, but that's a different matter altogether.

Posted by: John Huey Dewey and Louie at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (0gnMc)

132 Part of the problem, unfortunately, is that 25-30 years ago, when today's "leaders in education" were in college, they were the ditzy-assed idiots that took education because it wasn't taxing.

Not even that long ago. I have many unfond memories of ElEd majors bitching about how making bulletin board decorations cut into their weekday party time while I was up half the night debugging.

But that's what happens when "all kids must go to college"--they have to major in *something* and they get funneled into the most destructive major out there because it's easy.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 11:46 AM (ZKzrr)

133 Wouldn't the easiest way be to deconstruct the 7 completely?

I mean 7 = 1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG!!!!

And the other 7 = 1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1.

So now all you have to do is add those ones together by counting on fingers (spoiler alert: and toes) until you know the answer.

Am I right?
Can I get a Department of Education grant now?

1. Invent new system for stealing underwear.
2. ???
3. Get grants and roll in the sweet, sweet lucre!!

Posted by: Nom de Blog at January 21, 2014 11:47 AM (5Smjr)

134 Hey!

"Ow, My Balls!" is on.

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:47 AM (GQ8sn)

135
That's why Joe Biden thinks he's so smart. What little he knows is all the knowledge in his own little world.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 21, 2014 11:47 AM (gYIst)

136 Oops, forgot the html. You cannot "intuit" the proper order of prepositions in a sentence. You cannot Cargo Cult your way there. You simply have to memorize the correct order of direct object pronoun, indirect object pronoun, reflexive pronoun, and "en" or "y" according to the type of sentence it is, and then write a whole bunch of stupid-ass sentences which employ the rules of pronoun placement. In fact, everybody "intuits" the position of prepositions (and all the other aspects of grammar) in their native language. In case you hadn't noticed, illiterates speak English. What you're talking about, presumably, is "proper" language, which is a social decision about what sorts of language are considered better than others. Talk to a six-year-old. You'll find they have a perfect fine idea of regular English word order etc. without having the least understanding of abstract grammar. Perhaps you're talking about learning a foreign language, but that's a different matter altogether.

Posted by: John Huey Dewey and Louie at January 21, 2014 11:47 AM (0gnMc)

137 Anybody remember being taught ITA (Initial Teaching Alphabet)? We learned to read in the first grade using this semi-phonetic alphabet that used conjoined consonants and diphthongs, and it really did help me see patterns and connections. See Spot run. Run Spot run.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 11:47 AM (CRyse)

138 You want kids to learn? Apprenticeship. That's how people learn. By doing. Teachers/educators will never understand this.

Posted by: garrett at January 21, 2014 11:47 AM (3mMDl)

139

Bu-bu-but guys! Common Core is totes conservative!

Posted by: Al Cardenas (Chairman the American Conservative Union)

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at January 21, 2014 11:48 AM (kdS6q)

140 It's posts like this that make me wish I still had access to the umlauts.

Posted by: garrett at January 21, 2014 11:49 AM (3mMDl)

141 I prefer Pop-Up Math books.

Posted by: Joey Biden at January 21, 2014 11:49 AM (IXrOn)

142 If you're going to jump out of an airplane, why be encumbered by a parachute

Posted by: Hard-ons for Hitler at January 21, 2014 11:49 AM (e8kgV)

143

38 + 56 in my head is 80 plus 14 = 94. Its instantaneous.

That's how you're supposed to do it.

Posted by: eleven at January 21, 2014 11:49 AM (fsLdt)

144 113 A biz owner told me he had two 20-somethings in his store jazzing with him about getting hired. The boss asks, "How much is 27 plus 11? One said, "Let me get my phone out." Guy said, no, and looked at the other young man. He couldn't add the two number in his head either. Biz owner did say their self-esteem was good though. Posted by: Meremortal at January 21, 2014 03:43 PM (1Y+hH) In Nigeria, we weren't allowed to use calculators on math exams till 10th grade, and even then it had to be simple calculators, not scientific, never mind graphing. And yes, we even used log tables.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:49 AM (r+7wo)

145 jfc. as a science prof I dread the day the first common corpsemen stumble into my class.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 11:49 AM (x3YFz)

146 I learned my guzintas in the sixth grade. Posted by: Jethro Bodine at January 21, 2014 03:42 PM (m2Izr) Yea but you were seventeen

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at January 21, 2014 11:50 AM (R8hU8)

147

>>>You want kids to learn? Apprenticeship. That's how people learn. By doing.

That.

And cattleprods.

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 11:50 AM (3ZtZW)

148 I second the notion of having books in every room -- and I do mean EVERY room, IYKWIMAITYD.

Posted by: All Hail Eris at January 21, 2014 11:50 AM (QBm1P)

149 I have seen the future, and the future is spelled Kah-Buum. Haaahahahaaa....

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at January 21, 2014 11:50 AM (vd7A8)

150 125-I don't mean to knock the good ones out there-there are plenty. My daughter had them, and we were immensely blessed by each and every teacher she had, particularly through her surgeries and recoveries. But sadly, the majority of public schools don't get the cream, since there is so little to go around. They are stuck with the insipid dregs who barely know the subject they are trying to teach. I understand why the good ones leave-I do't blame them. And I feel guilty for not wanting to work to improve whatever small area I could have affected.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (EvHC8)

151

>>>It's posts like this that make me wish I still had access to the umlauts.

Which one? Jerry? Karl?

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (3ZtZW)

152 In Nigeria, we weren't allowed to use calculators on math exams till 10th grade, and even then it had to be simple calculators, not scientific, never mind graphing. And yes, we even used log tables.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 03:49 PM (r+7wo)

As a freshman undergrad, I had the biggest, baddest-ass calculator money could buy.

By the time I finished my masters, I had a $5 Walmart calculator.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (x3YFz)

153 It's posts like this that make me wish I still had access to the umlauts. Woüld yoü like one or two of mine?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (P7Wsr)

154 jfc. as a science prof I dread the day the first common corpsemen stumble into my class.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 03:49 PM (x3YFz)

Just wait! Pretty soon, we'll be flying on planes and driving cars they designed too!

"Hey, it's ok! My sister's retarded too. She's a pilot now!"

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (GQ8sn)

155 And sorry to be a snob, but these people just devalue my real PhD in a real field. Ugh.

When you don't have to be particularly booksmart to get a doctorate, sorry, but to me, that doctorate doesn't mean much.

No apologies needed. I feel exactly the same way. Or to put it another way:

Ditto.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (6TB1Z)

156 >>> fact, everybody "intuits" the position of prepositions (and all the other aspects of grammar) in their native language. In case you hadn't noticed, illiterates speak English. What you're talking about, presumably, is "proper" language, which is a social decision about what sorts of language are considered better than others. Talk to a six-year-old. You'll find they have a perfect fine idea of regular English word order etc. without having the least understanding of abstract grammar. ... people immersed in a language (such as kids) learn by hearing thousands of sentences a week. They do intuit the pattern, but it takes that kind of immersion to do that (plus a highly plastic brain, easily rewired, as kids have). If you're not actually immersed and spending every moment in a foreign language, you have to learn it. In fact French is different than English in word order as far as prepositions. French is similar to English in being a largely Subject-Verb-Object language, but, when prepositions are involved, the prepositions come BEFORE the verb. Thus: "Elle aime Henri," She loves Henry, becomes, when using prepositions, "Elle l'aime." "She him loves." It gets more complicated when their are multiple prepositions (reflexive, direct, indirect, then "y" or "en") because they come in a specific order. French kids would indeed pick up on this differing order of words by kindergarten with thousands of sentences per week over the course of five years of life. But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 11:51 AM (/FnUH)

157 I also noticed that the major of choice for girls who were clearly just biding time until they got married was special education. No Nigerian parent would ever pay for a special education degree. Nope.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:52 AM (r+7wo)

158 It was bad enough when "count to potato" was a joke, but this crap? I should remind myself more often: When given an opportunity, idiots can always make things worse.

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 11:52 AM (naUcP)

159
That.
And cattleprods.

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 03:50 PM (3ZtZW)

/nod

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 11:52 AM (x3YFz)

160 We must no longer just teach people how to think, we must think people how to teach. -JFK

Posted by: Mega at January 21, 2014 11:52 AM (hHFOx)

161 Modern Seinfeld ‏@SeinfeldToday Kramer hosts a "non-recorded" podcast. K:"It's just like a podcast, but no microphones." J:"So a conversation?" K:"You don't get it Jerry!"

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 11:52 AM (ZPrif)

162
Also, quelle surprise that an education policy crafted together by the likes of Jeb Bush and Mitch Daniels turns out to be less than conservative in practice.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at January 21, 2014 11:52 AM (kdS6q)

163 116--- I took all the required teacher education classes in the same semester. Posted by: maddogg at January 21, 2014 03:44 PM (xWW96) ------------------ Yep. You could take all of the horseshit in one semester back in the day. But they have been piling it on, more and more, deeper and deeper. Nowadays you have to take a good year's worth of stupid ed courses to get certified. Have to keep the education professors employed!

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (dfYL9)

164 I learned to read with Archie and Richie Rich comics in kindergarten around four years old. Loved me some Richie Rich.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (m2CN7)

165 is sounding out the word "BAKERY" when we were getting some bread or donuts. My parents were pretty impressed. (I was nineteen years old.)

Someone got inspired by the punctuation article in the sidebar. Nice.

Posted by: Mega at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (hHFOx)

166 >>>Common Core 3rd Grade-level math question:

Juanita wants to give bags of stickers to her
friends.
She wants to give the same number of stickers to each friend.

SheÂ’s not sure if she needs 4 bags or 6 bags of stickers.
How many
stickers could she buy so there are no stickers left over?

Posted by: Lizzy at January 21, 2014 03:34 PM (POpqt)<<<

That question is just ridiculous.

Juanita doesn't need to worry about buying any stickers anymore. Kids in the class who had stickers will be mandated to give up some of them to those that don't.

Posted by: Hate Miser at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (3bbd3)

167 Modern Seinfeld ‏@SeinfeldToday George gets an OkCupid message from an ex who dumped & doesn't remember him. George goes on the date so HE can dump HER. She dumps him again

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (ZPrif)

168 Just wait! Pretty soon, we'll be flying on planes and driving cars they designed too!

"Hey, it's ok! My sister's retarded too. She's a pilot now!"

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (GQ8sn)

That's it. Never leaving the house again.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (x3YFz)

169 132- Amen and Amen

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (EvHC8)

170 But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it? I and a couple dozen classmates managed in High School, at least on a basic level. It's the same as anything else--practice, practice, practice.

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 11:53 AM (naUcP)

171 She loves Henry, becomes, when using prepositions, "Elle l'aime." "She him loves." It gets more complicated when their are multiple prepositions Not to mention, hotter.

Posted by: garrett at January 21, 2014 11:54 AM (3mMDl)

172 Yes, yes, agreed agreed. And here is the sad thing, the commie front teachers unions are proud, PROUD that they've "educated" three generations of imbeciles.

They've denied the average person, who doesn't have "involved parents", who doesn't come from a "learning community" who may never rise above a lower working class station, the ability to read, write and know that 2 + 2 =4.

Well three generations of imbeciles is enough.

Posted by: Jocon307 at January 21, 2014 11:54 AM (7+F2i)

173 BAKERY.

Shit, I've been reading big words like that for years.

Posted by: Joe Biden at January 21, 2014 11:54 AM (8ZskC)

174 Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (6TB1Z) After reading my comment, the reader correctly surmises that my PhD is not in writing. :-)

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 11:54 AM (r+7wo)

175 I've been putting off the addition and subtraction flashcards, knowing my kids would find them a bore.

Gotta find a way to make it a game. When they can do X cards correctly in 60 seconds, they level up, then Y, then Z...each level unlocks something new (a new operation, or bigger integers, or something) and/or has some reward.

I think Ace had a post last year about using game-like structures to set goals.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 11:54 AM (ZKzrr)

176

When I was in school. If you were a boy you had to use the boys bathroom, and if you were a girl you had to use the girls bathrooom.

So old fashioned FML

Posted by: The Jackhole at January 21, 2014 11:55 AM (nTgAI)

177 What kids learn today:

A+B+X+Y+R1+L1+Start

Posted by: EC at January 21, 2014 11:55 AM (GQ8sn)

178 Both my parents were teachers.

Both my parents believed that advanced degrees in education were sought by those who loved being in school but wanted a job, once the schooling ended, that required no thought or work, but did pay well.

My own lackings in spelling and grammar are due to my own obstinate belief that having to learn a specialized language (of grammar) to take apart and/or construct sentences in a language I already spoke and read gud was stupid.

If I'd only known, way back when, that there'd be this here internet thing and I'd have to actually write stuff in comments, only to discredit myself from jump 'cause I can't write for shit...

The opinions of youth. The root of all dumbassery in adulthood.

Posted by: Grimmy at January 21, 2014 11:56 AM (uUsh9)

179

"She him loves."

That's retarded.

Posted by: eleven at January 21, 2014 11:56 AM (fsLdt)

180 I have two kids in elem, so I've trying to educate myself about Common Core since it has been adopted here in OH (adopted by an unelected, unaccountable State Bd of Ed but must be repealed via legislative initiative. but I digress). It is a massive undertaking to read all of the bullsh!t associated with its development - the people involved, funding, etc. I'm no expert, but I will say this. Anybody who tells you Common Core is all about any one thing is kinda missing the point. This thing is massive in scope and reach and is about a lot of things: 1. Centralizing control of education, incrementally of course. The goal being total federal control of curricula, testing, all of it. 2. Data collection. I'm not just talking academic data. They want stuff about personalities, quirks, likes/dislikes, religion, household gun ownership...on and on. 3. Workforce Planning. Watch a video of chief architect David Coleman praising Nate Silver as the "real winner" of the '12 election. Why is a person famous for PREDICTIVE models being hailed by the CCSS architect when discussing the development of the standards. 4. Propaganda/Indoctrination. Of course. Think the stuff you've seen already is extreme? THEY ARE SHOWING RESTRAINT, getting the camel's nose under the tent. Soon that camel will be shitting Che', Marx, AGW, AmericaIsTheRootOfAllEvil all over the children's impressionable minds. I could go on. Whatiscommoncore.org is a great site (started by moms out of Utah). Also read Cato, Heritage, Heartland Inst. This is a big fcuking deal

Posted by: ghost of hallelujah at January 21, 2014 11:56 AM (XvrTA)

181 2+2=whateverthefuckiwantittoequal

Posted by: tdpwells at January 21, 2014 11:56 AM (01otU)

182 But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it? Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (/FnUH) They don't. Why do you think the French are so snotty about their language when Americans with one or two years of high school French try to speak?

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 11:57 AM (EvHC8)

183 It's all about turning out good slaves to the state. Both of my lost wives and I could read and do simple math long before the first grade. All our parents read to us and showed us how to do simple figures. It astounds me how sloppy and lazy so many "parents" are. It is appalling. Of course I see the fruit of this all the time in stores. "Moms" yakking on their Binkies whilst their offspring get underfoot, use the displays as Jungle Gyms and generally make pests of themselves.

Posted by: backhoe at January 21, 2014 11:57 AM (ULH4o)

184 I remember when calculators weren't yet invented, but it was okay to use your slide rule in any math class. Now get off my snow covered lawn.

Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at January 21, 2014 11:57 AM (Ki8MM)

185 175 I've been putting off the addition and subtraction flashcards, knowing my kids would find them a bore. Gotta find a way to make it a game. When they can do X cards correctly in 60 seconds, they level up, then Y, then Z...each level unlocks something new (a new operation, or bigger integers, or something) and/or has some reward. I think Ace had a post last year about using game-like structures to set goals. Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 03:54 PM (ZKzrr) ******** That's how I trained Kanye.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 11:57 AM (RJMhd)

186 All Ace All Day!!!

Posted by: wodun at January 21, 2014 11:57 AM (fbqZE)

187

>>>But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it?

Sir Richard Burton, the guy what translated the Arabian Nights and learned a whole lot of arabic and so-called Oriental languages back in the day said he began with children's books - devoured as many as he could lay hands on - with a dictionary. That gave him a base of a couple hundred words. Then he just went there or spoke with as many of them furriners he could find

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 11:57 AM (3ZtZW)

188 But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it? Rosetta Stone?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 11:58 AM (CRyse)

189

I was always amazed at how well German children spoke German. Fucking geniuses.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 11:58 AM (lp37X)

190 No Nigerian parent would ever pay for a special education degree. Nope.

I'd bet those folks do earn their money while working, though.

I was talking to a friend of mine from church the other day. He's laid up after back surgery and just wanted to talk to someone so he didn't go nuts. I hate talking on the phone, even to close relatives. Anyway, he's Nigerian, PhD in Physics, early 70s in age. After chatting for about an hour, I hung up, and noted with amusement that I have a lot more in common with him than with most of my countrymen. In fact, that's true of many nationalities because science is such an international endeavor. No real point, I was just struck by it.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 11:58 AM (6TB1Z)

191 "She him loves." That's retarded. Je t'aime. I you love.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 11:58 AM (P7Wsr)

192 Texas schools have always been good at teaching phonics, but the standardized test for years ignored spelling on the writing portion. Therefore, the grade school ignored spelling too. My oldest still struggles with spelling. We spent a lot of time at home working on it, but with no reinforcement from the school...
Now spelling must be back on the standardized tests. My youngest has vocabulary words every week and had to learn all the same spelling rules we did.

Posted by: dax at January 21, 2014 11:58 AM (VC56G)

193 I disagree with the choice of the word "intuit' for how kids learn language. It's not entirely intuition when you hear or see thousands of patterns of it. It becomes a kind of memorization. I think it's maybe halfway between simple memorization and actual intuition (generalization or insight from explicit rules). I may be able to intuit how to use a shovel based on looking at its shape. However, if I've SEEN people using shovels (using the foot to tamp down on the spade) a hundred times before I actually started shoveling, have I really "intuited' its proper use?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 11:58 AM (/FnUH)

194 OK, my punctuation really sucked ^^^. I need to proofread next time

Posted by: ghost of hallelujah at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (XvrTA)

195 Gotta find a way to make it a game. When they can do X cards correctly in 60 seconds, they level up, then Y, then Z...each level unlocks something new (a new operation, or bigger integers, or something) and/or has some reward. They get dinner?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (CRyse)

196 This just in, according to Think Progress, noticing Wendy Davis's lies is sexist.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (XUKZU)

197 French ? Au contraire Muthafucka !

Posted by: The Jackhole at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (nTgAI)

198 A lot of the root parts of "common core" are legitimate and useful toolsÂ… the problem is that the people making the material are idiots, the teachers don't know how to teach it, and instead of rote memorization that 7 + 7 =14, we get rote memorization of tricks with out the context needed to apply it to a wider field of study. If taught properly and correctly, these are useful tools. It reminds me of the "new math." It turns out that I was taught using a version of that method, and leaned it quite well - but then I had competent private school teachers. You need to give kids a solid foundation that they are familiar with and have a feel for before pulling the "shortcuts"/tricks thing. "Common Core" does not do this. Also, "whole reading" is child abuse.

Posted by: The Political Hat at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (XvHmy)

199 This. Also students don't want to learn. You put them in a sandbox and they get mad because you got sand in their shoes.

Posted by: Meekle at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (kqHcW)

200 Try playing a concerto without first learning the scales. It makes as much sense. Learn the fundamentals. Practice until they are automatic. Then you can get fancy.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 21, 2014 11:59 AM (P6QsQ)

201 I've told the story before, but it bears repeating: On parent night, my daughter's high school algebra II teacher said it's a DOUBLEGOOD THING for the kids to be confused, because it'll be so great when they finally figure it out. I refrained from punching her lights out.

Common Core is a disaster.

Posted by: jakeman at January 21, 2014 12:00 PM (vH4YP)

202 La chatte est petite! La chatte est petite!

Posted by: ace's french instructor at January 21, 2014 12:00 PM (vuh7l)

203 Fads come and fads go, but one thing remains the same: kids graduating from high school can't read, write or do math.

Posted by: Caliban at January 21, 2014 12:00 PM (DrC22)

204 Posted by: Regular Moron at January 21, 2014 03:57 PM (Ki8MM) I'm only 35 in the prime of my life! but in deepest darkest Africa, I learned how to use a slide rule in our "computer science" class, which included having to learn the history of computation from abacuses to slide rules to the punch card thingies.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 12:00 PM (r+7wo)

205 Why do you think the French are so snotty about their language when Americans with one or two years of high school French try to speak? Want a real laugh? Read what Benjamin Franklin had to say about the French people. He talks about them as being warm and genuine and friendly to strangers!?!

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:00 PM (P7Wsr)

206 You don't and never learn the rote answer to all possible math problems. You learn the strategy that applies no matter what the numbers are. In a base ten it is making tens. You don't memorize 144+287.

Posted by: slick at January 21, 2014 12:01 PM (RIdwM)

207 It's all about turning out good slaves to the state. Both of my lost wives and I could read and do simple math long before the first grade. All our parents read to us and showed us how to do simple figures. It astounds me how sloppy and lazy so many "parents" are. It is appalling. Of course I see the fruit of this all the time in stores. "Moms" yakking on their Binkies whilst their offspring get underfoot, use the displays as Jungle Gyms and generally make pests of themselves.

Posted by: backhoe at January 21, 2014 03:57 PM (ULH4o)

----------------------------------------

When I started bringing story books home from school (2nd grade), my mom would make me read the whole book to her out loud, no matter what she was doing at the time.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 12:01 PM (lp37X)

208 Be around your children as much as you can.
Pray with them at night and at meals, Help them to memorize a simple prayer to say alone.
Read Mother Goose aloud.
Show them you value books and the printed word. Like The Bible.
When they are aged six, introduce A.A. Milne, and maybe the "Jabberwocky".
By age 20, they may be reading "Naming and Necessity" by Saul A. Kripke.

Posted by: just another Amos Singletary-type guy at January 21, 2014 12:01 PM (1/4XQ)

209 Oh, should note that Sir R Burton actually wrote some of them dictionaries - like the pashtun one - for the English stinkos.

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 12:01 PM (3ZtZW)

210 Well three generations of imbeciles is enough.

Nice, Justice Holmes.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 12:01 PM (6TB1Z)

211 The problem with education is the federal government. As its influence has increased at all levels over the last 40 years or so, results have declined.

Posted by: Adjoran at January 21, 2014 12:02 PM (473jB)

212 I am fluent in five languages. American, English, Australian , Canadian and Irish. Still trying to master Scottish but they are hard to understand.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:02 PM (m2CN7)

213 But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it? Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (/FnUH)

Does France let Ewoks in? Extended vaycay! You could blog from a cafe somewhere while drinking Val-u-Vino. And no, going to French Canada does not count if you want to learn "proper" French, I am told the dialect is way different.

Posted by: LizLem at January 21, 2014 12:02 PM (BF+2f)

214 Oh look-- Putin said this to George Stephanapolos: Â“You know thereÂ’s a Russian saying: Â‘grain by grain, and a hen fills her belly,Â’Â” he said. Idioms.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:02 PM (RJMhd)

215 Both my parents believed that advanced degrees in education were sought by those who loved being in school but wanted a job, once the schooling ended, that required no thought or work, but did pay well.

A lot of school districts give out automatic pay increases if you get a worthless masters on top of your worthless Ed degree.

Why not? It's not their money.

Posted by: HR at January 21, 2014 12:02 PM (ZKzrr)

216 2
Long before Idiocracy was Cyril Kornbluth's The Marching Morons.

Look it up.
*
*
See also "The Little Black Bag," in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Vol. 1. It was adapted for the Rod Serling TV show Night Gallery, too.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at January 21, 2014 12:03 PM (BDU/a)

217
Je t'aime.

I you love.
-
One of the interesting (if you're a geek) peculiarities of French is the verb manquer meaning to miss. It's backwards from the way we think of it. It's not 'I missed the train" but "the train missed me." Same with missing your girlfriend etc.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 12:03 PM (XUKZU)

218 41 I very much agree with this. I am not sure how much the rest of us realize how much teachers hate the idea of having their work (teaching) graded. A girl I knew (who was quite intelligent and reasonable in all other respects) and I once got into a discussion of teacher accountability. I said that it was a good idea to hold teachers accountable for whether their students learned- just like any other profession- results matter. The tide of vitriol that came from her (I found out during the discussion that her mother was a K-12 teacher) was astounding. This could be an isolated case, but it certainly seems to match what we see on the news from teachers whenever anyone brings up standards.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:03 PM (TGgNi)

219 I learned how to use a slide rule in our "computer science" class, which included having to learn the history of computation from abacuses to slide rules to the punch card thingies. We built a TSC (the simple computer) up from logic gates in computer science. I don't know a single thing about slide rules though.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:03 PM (P7Wsr)

220 Now spelling must be back on the standardized tests. My youngest has vocabulary words every week and had to learn all the same spelling rules we did. Posted by: dax Mine, too. She's pretty good at spelling now (she's

. I'm a writer, so I'm kind of a stickler for spelling. I'm dumb enough to still believe that society still judges someone's intelligence by how well they can spell. I could be wrong, however...

Posted by: Hobbitopoly at January 21, 2014 12:04 PM (fk1A8)

221 Modern educators hate, hate, HATE, HATE memorization which they always denigrate by referring to it as 'rote memorization'. In fact I suspect that calling for the memorization of anything more complex than a mnemonic will gets you get kicked out of a graduate program in education.

But as anyone who's competent in an area knows there is a certain amount of information that you have to just know without any thinking in order to be competent. Now you may have formally memorized this or maybe just learned it by repetition and osmosis, but now it's something you can recall without any effort.

Repetition and memorization are the foundations of all education. But they're a drudge and unsexy so everyone including teachers looks for a shortcut. None has been found to date.

Posted by: Mætenloch at January 21, 2014 12:04 PM (pAlYe)

222 What we have here is a failure to communicate bilingually.

Posted by: ace's french instructor at January 21, 2014 12:04 PM (vuh7l)

223 Why do you think the French are so snotty about their language when Americans with one or two years of high school French try to speak? Only thing you have to say to a snotty frog is, "Spreken zie Deutche? Nein? You're welcome"

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:04 PM (CRyse)

224 People have been teaching math for thousands of years with a fair measure of success.

If there were a better way, it probably would have been stumbled across by now. Exploring new avenues of failure doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:04 PM (zxsxA)

225 >>A biz owner told me he had two 20-somethings in his store jazzing with him about getting hired.

Reminds me of last summer at a KMart where the very nice checkout gal ran into a snag because for one item (a sweatshirt) code wasn't being recognized by the scanner. So she needed to manually enter the price - but at the 40% discount price, not the price on its tag. She couldn't figure it out, and the other cashiers were too busy. While we were waiting for the manager I very politely told her the price. She wouldn't believe me, she thought it was too low. So I tried another route and told her that I calculated the discount by taking 10 % of the price (and gave the amount) and then multiplied by 4 to get the 40% discount. She looked at me like I was speaking another language. It was just sad, and I really tried to do this without being condescending or a know it all because she really had been nice.

Posted by: Lizzy at January 21, 2014 12:04 PM (POpqt)

226 One of the problems Charles Murray has highlighted about modern education is that the basic intelligence and educational attainment of teachers has dropped tremendously since the feminist movement of the 60's. Before then, teaching was a top choice for female college graduates, even the preferred choice. Very few women opted for law or medical school or for getting MBAs, etc. Those fields weren't exactly closed to women but they weren't quite socially acceptable. So the best and brightest usually went into teaching.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (dfYL9)

227 But as anyone who's competent in an area knows there is a certain amount of information that you have to just know without any thinking in order to be competent.

Oh, all RIGHT! I'll give the ABCs another try.

Posted by: Joe Biden at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (6TB1Z)

228 I learned how to use a slide rule in our "computer science" class, which included having to learn the history of computation from abacuses to slide rules to the punch card thingies I'm impressed. That actually is a good background ed for computer science. This country put men on the moon with slide rules and hand wired computer programs. You just shattered any prejudice I might have had about a superior American education vs a (possible, I'm too lazy to check) Third World country.

Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (Ki8MM)

229 But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it? Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (/FnUH) When my Dad emigrated from Italy in 1937 at the age of 12, he was put in an english immersion class for one year. He then went to school with the rest of the kids, and graduated from high school at 18. And then went to WWII under Patton. Today kids have it so tough.

Posted by: Meremortal at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (1Y+hH)

230 >>>"She him loves." That's retarded. ... I agree. It's a dumb rule. It makes no sense to have one rule for named objects (nouns) and another for prepositions. I've been reading a lot about the structure of language recently. In so many ways English is a simple language. Consider verb conjugation -- apart from irregular verbs (the same 30 or 40 in ever language), we only have two conjugations: use the verb as it is for all cases except 3rd person singluar, and in that case, add an -s. I run you run he runs they run we run Noun cases? Consider that latin nouns are declined into SIX different cases -- nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, and others, I can't remember them all. Rather than memorize all those declensions, English employs a simple rule: Word order and prepositions indicate what purpose a word serves in a sentence. I looked this up over the weekend: Finnish has FIFTEEN declensions for nouns. FIFTEEN different cases. FIFTEEN charts of word endings you have to memorize to convey the ideas that English does by use of word order and prepositions like "of, by, from, towards," etc. English has a lot of special rules and exceptions that make it very hard for foreign learners to understand. But in terms of the BASICS, the very basics, English is dead simple in terms of crap like conjugations, declensions, and word order.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (/FnUH)

231 Posted by: Hobbitopoly LOL! I meant to say she's 8. But she does look pretty cool in sunglasses, too!

Posted by: Hobbitopoly at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (fk1A8)

232 So American men still suck at tennis. No American made the final 16 for the men or the final 8 for the women. American men have sucked at tennis for a long time now.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (ZPrif)

233 205-yeah, well that was well over 200 years ago. Actually, I lived in Paris for a while, and had a marvelous time. But I had studied French for 12 years before (started in 5th grade, got a Master's in it) and spoke fairly well. Fellow students who had not had as much background, were far more frustrated. It's the same as locals in various regions of the U.S. having a difficult time with foreigners who don't speak English as a first language. Although I don't think anyone can outsnot a Parisian.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:05 PM (EvHC8)

234 There's good money in tennis. Be a top 100-150 in the world and you make a good living.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:06 PM (ZPrif)

235

>>>And no, going to French Canada does not count if you want to learn "proper" French, I am told the dialect is way different.

Sorta. There's a lot of dialects in french. Canuck frog is akin to colonial frog, just like Virginia southron.

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 12:06 PM (3ZtZW)

236 They originally said they didn't like to teach memorization because it's an appeal to authority (IOW Nazis). I wish I was making this up.

Posted by: Mega at January 21, 2014 12:06 PM (hHFOx)

237 Somewhere out there, in mom & dads basement, a troll is feverishly attempting to link "Cargo Cult Mentality" to racism...

Posted by: Jrr at January 21, 2014 12:06 PM (BdVar)

238 English has a lot of special rules and exceptions that make it very hard for foreign learners to understand. But in terms of the BASICS, the very basics, English is dead simple in terms of crap like conjugations, declensions, and word order.

Ahem.......GHOTI.

Posted by: The Finns at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (6TB1Z)

239 "We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."

Posted by: toby928© at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (QupBk)

240
You don't and never learn the rote answer to all possible math problems.
Posted by: slick

Somewhere along the way, I picked up the rule of thumb that if you had absolutely no idea of how to solve a specific high-school math problem, just guess [ -2 ].

Had that work once or twice.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (kdS6q)

241 Last American male to win a major was Roddick in 2003

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (ZPrif)

242 But Ace - really, you should get your ass up to Quebec or Montreal for a space.

Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (3ZtZW)

243 A girl I knew (who was quite intelligent and reasonable in all other respects) and I once got into a discussion of teacher accountability. I said that it was a good idea to hold teachers accountable for whether their students learned- just like any other profession- results matter. Here's the problem: The students are held to standard by grade. But if you're a sixth-grade teacher you have ESL kids coming into your class who have no English-speaking parent and the kids are at a second or third grade level. So if you take that kid and raise them to a fifth grade level, a Herculean task, you've failed. They're not at a sixth grade level.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (P7Wsr)

244 226-that is an interesting point that I hadn't thought about. It also makes perfect sense.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:07 PM (EvHC8)

245 Idioms are things you can't intuit I would think. And speaking of inuits--language is cultural. Then backwardly there are theories that language influences the way you think.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:08 PM (RJMhd)

246 "~~Spreken~~ Sprechen ~~zie~~ sie Deutche? Nein? You're welcome" I have been reduced to correcting spelling in a language not my own. Kill me now...

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 12:08 PM (naUcP)

247 I'm only 35 in the prime of my life! but in deepest darkest Africa, I learned how to use a slide rule in our "computer science" class, which included having to learn the history of computation from abacuses to slide rules to the punch card thingies.
Posted by: chique d'afrique

When I watch Apollo 13, I'm always amazed that when it got to nut cutting time, all of the necktied guys at mission control haul out a slide rule and do the math in about 3 seconds.

Posted by: Bruce at January 21, 2014 12:08 PM (xvzKS)

248 But how does someone who wants to learn the language not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language, learn it? Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (/FnUH) You don't. Our Special Forces guys and foreign service personnel have been going to the Defense Language Institute for decades. It's the fastest way to churn out a proficiency in foreign language, but it involves intensive study and it still takes over a year.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 21, 2014 12:08 PM (CJjw5)

249 I don't believe you can teach someone to teach. It's a talent, like being able to sing. You've either got the talent or you don't. Pity the poor kids who end up with the teacher who has 20 years experience, an education PhD and no fucking talent.

Posted by: jwest at January 21, 2014 12:08 PM (u2a4R)

250 @226 Certainly the case with both my grandmothers.

Posted by: just another Amos Singletary-type guy at January 21, 2014 12:08 PM (1/4XQ)

251 Common Core Word Problem:

Sally has five friends, three are girls, two are boys. Sally buys fifteen bars of candy. Seven are chocolate and eight are caramel. How many abortions will her girl friends have before they graduate high school?

Posted by: DangerGirl at January 21, 2014 12:09 PM (GrtrJ)

252 246 "Spreken Sprechen zie sie Deutche? Nein? You're welcome"

I have been reduced to correcting spelling in a language not my own. Kill me now...

Ahem. Deutsch.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 12:09 PM (6TB1Z)

253 The other idea of the times tables is you are going to have to multiply two small numbers by one another quickly more often than anything else.

Posted by: Mega at January 21, 2014 12:09 PM (hHFOx)

254 Only thing you have to say to a snotty frog is, "Spreken zie Deutche? Nein? You're welcome"

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 04:04 PM (CRyse)

-------------------------------------------------

LOL! Beautiful! I have to remember that.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 12:09 PM (lp37X)

255 Yeah English has a very inconsistent spelling due to borrowing words (and spelling conventions) from Old English, German, French, Dutch... Unlike the French (who impose fairly standardized spellings on things, and insist on Gallicizing pronouncation (as the British Anglicize their borrowings)), we tend to retain source-language spelling AND pronunciation so that understanding English requires, pretty much, knowing the spelling and pronunciation conventions of four or five different languages.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:10 PM (/FnUH)

256 I'm one of those kids whose parents taught to read around age 2. Certainly my vocabulary was not large early on, though because I lived in Bangkok until age 5, it really didn't matter. The point is that I remember my brother and sister, both younger, marveling at all kinds of signs and billboards they couldn't read -- and I don't mean they didn't know the vocabulary, they could not reasonably say the word. I have no recollection of that. As for benchmarks, by the time the first standardized tests occurred, I was reading in my teens, and that's when that meant something, so essentially I've been fluent my entire life. It makes total sense that that mixed up word crap is so easy -- it *is* exactly what a learned person would expect based on experience. Whole language is crap and will only make future generations intellectually illiterate.

Posted by: SFGoth at January 21, 2014 12:10 PM (VGDJR)

257 Ahem. Deutsch. Dammit, knew I missed something there... /points crossbow at self

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 12:10 PM (naUcP)

258 "We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."
-
Just remember, none of it is obvious to Joe Biden.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 12:10 PM (XUKZU)

259 242 But Ace - really, you should get your ass up to Quebec or Montreal for a space. Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 04:07 PM (3ZtZW) *********** For real---people in Paris were waaay nicer about French and understood me better than the Quebecers. Quebecers speak a dialect and are uptight about it. The result? They are hautier about the language.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:10 PM (RJMhd)

260 d foreign service personnel have been going to the Defense Language Institute Sorry EOJ, Foreign Service go to the Foreign Service Institute for language training initially, and then to regional overseas schools for "hard language" finishing. DLI is almost strictly for Defense.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:11 PM (EvHC8)

261 Common Core Word Problem:

Sally has five friends, three are girls, two are boys. Sally buys fifteen bars of candy. Seven are chocolate and eight are caramel. How many abortions will her girl friends have before they graduate high school?

Posted by: DangerGirl at January 21, 2014 04:09 PM (GrtrJ)

how many are the ghey ?

Posted by: The Jackhole at January 21, 2014 12:11 PM (nTgAI)

262 >>>Our Special Forces guys and foreign service personnel have been going to the Defense Language Institute for decades. It's the fastest way to churn out a proficiency in foreign language, but it involves intensive study and it still takes over a year. right, and I'd love to immerse, but I don't think Special Forces would have me, and they wouldn't teach me french even if they would. Immersion is of course the way to go. And I would love to take two months off to immerse. But, can't.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:11 PM (/FnUH)

263 Have to agree with ace, once my third grade son started on phonics he learned quickly and is now able to recognize new words at post college level. I took him out of public school when I saw that they were telling him he only needed to write the first and last letters of a word and it would be considered correct, didn't matter what he put in the middle of the word. Makes no sense I said, he will have to be trained a second time to spell the word correctly. waste of time and frustrating for him. Private school went straight into phonics, he picked it up easily and did start to understand how the English language works, after that it's easy.

Posted by: Orlandocon ette at January 21, 2014 12:11 PM (SldZ2)

264 Posted by: Regular Moron at January 21, 2014 04:05 PM (Ki8MM) I am confident that my primary and secondary education in Nigeria was superior to that of most of my American contemporaries. But then I went to good schools. My primary school was private and expensive, but I went to an almost free govt secondary school. I was horrified at the classrooms coming from my hoity toity private school. Which is why I always scoff at the notion that the answer to education is more money. Students who were near the bottom of my class in high school graduated with honors in American colleges.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 12:12 PM (r+7wo)

265 "Spreken Sprechen zie sie Deutche? Nein? You're welcome" I have been reduced to correcting spelling in a language not my own. Kill me now... Sorry. I can say it out loud. Never said I could spell it. Point stands though.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:12 PM (CRyse)

266 Look, let's be realistic: Some people just aren't going to be standout thinkers.

*Hangs head in shame, looks at belly button*

"Hey! a leftover bacon bit!

*Lifts it high in victory like that ape-man holding the skull crushing thigh bone in 2001 A Space Odyssey*

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 21, 2014 12:12 PM (n0DEs)

267 fwiw, my daughter is in a Japanese after school school where do something similar. the company is named kumon, and they are all over japan and lots of kids go to them or something similar. they have a system and use japanese qc techniques to constantly improve that system. well, i have noticed that what kumon does is that when they are introducing a new concept they give her a few dozen worksheets, with hundreds of problems where the technique might be useful, and they expect her to figure it out. No teaching at all, just what I would call "directed drilling" My guess is that they are trying to skip the drilling part since that is hard and no fun and who wants to teach that?

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at January 21, 2014 12:12 PM (LWu6U)

268 So American men still suck at tennis.
No American made the final 16 for the men or the final 8 for the women.
American men have sucked at tennis for a long time now.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 04:05 PM (ZPrif)

Participation is the problem. Its not there like it used to be. You have to start at the age of approximately six or seven and dedicated your life. The life of a tennis pro is over at a relatively young age.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:12 PM (m2CN7)

269 Phonics is good. In third grade I stuck my hand in the air and asked the teacher, "why isn't father pronounced fat-- her?" The teacher thought I was being silly, and said so, but I had innocently reached the stage of wondering why phonics had certain rules. Adult answer: So we can understand each other, and we can "sound out the words."

Posted by: Smilin' Jack at January 21, 2014 12:12 PM (Xzj0B)

270 116 . . . The kids in teacher education are damn near useless for the most part. Ignorant and weak minded. . . .
*
*
I read this someplace: That when you're teaching at the college level, and you get off into one of those interesting sidebars -- you know, the kind of stuff not essential to the topic, but utterly fascinating to a bright mind? -- that the student who raises his/her hand to ask, "Will this be on the final?", is almost certain to be an education major.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at January 21, 2014 12:13 PM (BDU/a)

271 Common Core Word Problem:Sally has five friends, three are girls, two are boys. Sally buys fifteen bars of candy. Seven are chocolate and eight are caramel.

How many times are they allowed to vote in an election?

Posted by: Bruce at January 21, 2014 12:13 PM (xvzKS)

272 You don't. I concur, Dark Lord. When I moved to Germany, it took an entire year of total immersion before I started thinking in German, rather than the cumbersome think-it-in-english-translate-it-and-speak. When you start to dream in the language, you're there.

Posted by: toby928© at January 21, 2014 12:13 PM (QupBk)

273 Whole language is crap and will only make future generations intellectually illiterate. I think you're starting to catch on...

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 12:13 PM (naUcP)

274 What the cufk does that CommieCore math question even mean? "Number bonds"? "Skip-count"? It's progressive dribble that is infecting education in this country. Which means that we'll be seeing even more seriously ignorant people able to vote in coming years as the productive die off or flee. That is the slow death of the USA and its concept of individual liberty.

Posted by: model_1066 at January 21, 2014 12:13 PM (LIQGY)

275 @226

That was amusing.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (6TB1Z)

276 138 You want kids to learn? Apprenticeship. That's how people learn. By doing.

Teachers/educators will never understand this. Posted by: garrett

I began my working career in the machine shop of Island Auto Parts in 1969. "Watch what the Old Guy does...."

And yeah, I think he was 44 then....
I learned to run the machine tools, weld, and a bunch of other stuff. "The old guy" was one of the smartest people I ever knew- but like so many, got married young, babies came and he had to start working so he never got to college.

When I was young I rode all over the southeast with him- he was a troubleshooter for Tracy's Auto Parts.

When he got old, he rode in my wrecker with me as my sidekick. Rough as a cob- but a good man. RIP, Roger Alan Parsons. Oh, yeah! He was Don "the swamp rat" Garllitt's partner in the 1950's drag racing scene.

Posted by: backhoe at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (ULH4o)

277 I would love to take two months off to immerse. That pudding would get pretty rank.

Posted by: garrett at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (3mMDl)

278

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:11 PM (/FnUH)

You should have chosen Spanish to learn. Lots of opportunities to immerse.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (m2CN7)

279 When I watch Apollo 13, I'm always amazed that when it got to nut cutting time, all of the necktied guys at mission control haul out a slide rule and do the math in about 3 seconds. While smoking in Mission Control.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (CRyse)

280

In other news, the establishment GOP candidate former gov. McDonnell, total fucking loser, was indicted today.

Yay GOP establishment, keep giving us candidates we can be oh so proud of.

Posted by: prescient11 at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (tVTLU)

281 Mrs Vandertamp is a slut!

Posted by: ace's french instructor at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (vuh7l)

282 I'm no genius, but throughout school in the 70's and 80's I was considered smart. After reading about what they're doing to the process of education, I suspect current techniques would have left me considerably dumber than I already am.

Posted by: Kensington at January 21, 2014 12:14 PM (Z7toi)

283 The Pareto Principle can be usefully followed in learning another language as an adult.
Do you really need to know the Swahili for "impeach"? There are are other, more locally useful vocabulary items to learn first.

Posted by: just another Amos Singletary-type guy at January 21, 2014 12:15 PM (1/4XQ)

284 243 And that was her primary objection: that the teacher is held accountable for the progress of the students when they have limited control over whether students progress to the level they need to. I likened it to a manager at a business. He (or she) is responsible and accountable for those people who work under them. Now how they go about managing the people (within reason) is up to them, the results of the group are what matter. I can understand the problem, there are other things going on here that can set the teacher up for failure through no fault of their own. However, on the flip side, if you have no standards, then the teachers literally have to do nothing in order to "succeed." Bad teachers are propagated with no way to remove them. Good teachers are frustrated. I just cannot see how something as vital as education does not have some system of merit. Now I also understand the parents have a huge part of this responsibility, but they do not have all of it unless they are homeschooling. Another interesting window during that discussion with the girl was how much she hated the idea of homeschooling.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:15 PM (TGgNi)

285 Posted by: Bigby's Semaphore Hands at January 21, 2014 04:01 PM (3ZtZW)

I think Burton also said there were about 600 critical words that were needed in any language, and if you could master those, you could survive quite nicely, although the local grammar purists might look down their noses at you!

Posted by: Hrothgar at January 21, 2014 12:15 PM (o3MSL)

286 So Volokh will now be behind the WaPo paywall? Good for them. Kinda sucks, but understandable.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:15 PM (ZPrif)

287 Ehh people have phones to spell and do math now. Who cares? Better to teach them about feelings and being global citizens.

Posted by: DOE at January 21, 2014 12:15 PM (iEoiA)

288 275 @226

That was amusing.

Dang, I meant 266. 226 can suck an egg.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 12:16 PM (6TB1Z)

289 Quebecers speak a dialect and are uptight about it. The result? They are hautier about the language. Funny story time. I served a LDS mission in Montreal. My first companion was from France, near Paris. He hated speaking in French to the Quebecois. I didn't get it until one day, he was forced to speak in French. The person responded in halting English, "I do not speak English". HA! The Parisian accent threw the Quebecois person off so much they assumed it was English. You can't slap a Frenchman any harder than that!

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:16 PM (P7Wsr)

290 Had an Ex live in Girlfriend who was a middle School math teacher in Colorado... Senior enough that she was writing standard tests and curriculum... was on State Boards... She could not figure out a 15% tip in her head.... Nuff said...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 12:16 PM (lZBBB)

291 When you start to dream in the language, you're there. Posted by: toby928Â© It's awful isn't it? And if you are a polyglot, you can have several languages going on at once. You wake up more tired from sleeping than if you had pulled an all nighter.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:16 PM (EvHC8)

292 When I watch Apollo 13, I'm always amazed that when it got to nut cutting time, all of the necktied guys at mission control haul out a slide rule and do the math in about 3 seconds. Most students these days would not only not be able to work a slide rule, they'd have no clue what one was.

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 12:17 PM (naUcP)

293 203 Fads come and fads go, but one thing remains the same: kids graduating from high school can't read, write or do math. Posted by: Caliban at January 21, 2014 04:00 PM (DrC22) -------------------- Which is why graduation rates mean very little. It's like these stupid politicos who want every kid to have a college degree. We can do that on the cheap. Just print up the certificates and hand them out.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 12:17 PM (dfYL9)

294 Former VA governor & wife indicted on federal Corruption charges. McDonnell!

Posted by: Carol at January 21, 2014 12:17 PM (ihCPW)

295 In other news, the establishment GOP candidate former gov. McDonnell, total fucking loser, was indicted today.

Yay GOP establishment, keep giving us candidates we can be oh so proud of.

Posted by: prescient11 at January 21, 2014 04:14 PM (tVTLU)

Well at least now VA has a professional criminal as governor, and since he is a Dem, we'll not be reminded of any malfeasance committed in the next four years.

Posted by: Hrothgar at January 21, 2014 12:17 PM (o3MSL)

296 While smoking in Mission Control.
Posted by: rickb223

I quit about 20 years ago. When some thinking needs to be done though, I still think it's brainfood

Posted by: Bruce at January 21, 2014 12:18 PM (xvzKS)

297 @289 Last time I checked, Canada is officially bilingual-- except in Quebec, where the usual Canadian bilingual signs are not found.

Posted by: just another Amos Singletary-type guy at January 21, 2014 12:18 PM (1/4XQ)

298 >>>Our Special Forces guys and foreign service personnel have been going to the Defense Language Institute for decades. It's the fastest way to churn out a proficiency in foreign language, but it involves intensive study and it still takes over a year.

right, and I'd love to immerse, but I don't think Special Forces would have me, and they wouldn't teach me french even if they would.

Immersion is of course the way to go. And I would love to take two months off to immerse.

But, can't.
-
I think the best bet is to learn or practice some French everyday. Your two year goal may not be realistic but there is much fun in the actual learning. ther4e re a number of Frog movies available and I would say watch as many of those as possible. You'd be surprised at how soon you can pick up words and phrases (although actually understanding the dialogue may be a bridge too far). There are also a number of French comic book, Asterics and Obelix for example, that are not too difficult and have pictures to help with understanding. Back when I was in France, they had a television show similar to Sesame Street with a green frog (heh) puppet. I watched him as often as I could.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 21, 2014 12:18 PM (XUKZU)

299 Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 04:17 PM (naUcP)

The sheer versatility of a slide rule in the hands of a reasonably good engineer is still quite amazing.

Posted by: Hrothgar at January 21, 2014 12:18 PM (o3MSL)

300 Learning language is fun, but kind of a waste. Every year that goes by the tools to auto-translate everything get better. I spent years learning Spanish. Got to the point where I could read Mexican newspapers and watch Spanish TV with the captions on (my audio processing was too slow to keep up, but I can read in real time). I missed the subtleties often, but I would get the gist. In other words, years of practice and I can read Spanish on my own as good as I can read Japanese with Google auto-translate.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:19 PM (ZPrif)

301 >>>I think Burton also said there were about 600 critical words that were needed in any language, and if you could master those, you could survive quite nicely, although the local grammar purists might look down their noses at you! There is some kind of artificial language called "Basic English" or something that greatly simplifies grammar and the like and restricts itself to 1000 words. I believe that the Air Force, for example, writes its technical manuals in both real English and "Basic English," so that foreigners can understand it. (I mean, foreigners who are working for us or something.)

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:19 PM (/FnUH)

302 Hobbitopoly: "I'm dumb enough to still believe that society still judges someone's intelligence by how well they can spell. I could be wrong, however..."

It's changing as we speak. Dare I say "Twitter"?

Technology is making us less competent and more lazy. Our brains are skipping (or losing) some basic training mechanisms. Maybe our brains will remold into a different sort of processing organ, but that's not likely. If you have the mental building blocks already established, you can cheat a bit for convenience. If those blocks are never acquired, how can you cheat? There's no well from which to borrow.

Compare email, for example, to hand-written letters of yore. Email was a devolution. So is Twitter, yet society becomes more receptive to such bastardization with its ubiquity. In time the metrics for measuring "intelligence" will change because the standards will have, too.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 21, 2014 12:19 PM (eHIJJ)

303 It's hard to use phonics in French because they only actually pronounce about half the letters and the other half are pronounced through the nose.

Posted by: Glide55 at January 21, 2014 12:20 PM (Z2aee)

304 My daughter just came down and asked me what I was doing-told her I was on a thread about Common Core taking U.S. education down the toilet. She responded with, "it's been in the toilet, Common Core is just the flush." 18. I trained her well.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:20 PM (EvHC8)

305 289 Quebecers speak a dialect and are uptight about it. The result? They are hautier about the language. Funny story time. I served a LDS mission in Montreal. My first companion was from France, near Paris. He hated speaking in French to the Quebecois. I didn't get it until one day, he was forced to speak in French. The person responded in halting English, "I do not speak English". HA! The Parisian accent threw the Quebecois person off so much they assumed it was English. You can't slap a Frenchman any harder than that! Posted by: bonhomme at January 21, 2014 04:16 PM (P7Wsr) ************ It's really bad. What is the term for it-- patois--or something?

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:20 PM (RJMhd)

306 287 Ehh people have phones to spell and do math now. Who cares? Better to teach them about feelings and being global citizens. Posted by: DOE at January 21, 2014 04:15 PM (iEoiA) I myself feel guilty about having a phone that frees me from memorizing phone numbers. Remember that? I can recall the numbers of my high school friends twenty years ago, but I couldn't do the same for half my friends now.

Posted by: model_1066 at January 21, 2014 12:20 PM (LIQGY)

307 ther4e re a number of Frog movies available and I would say watch as many of those as possible.

For example, Butter my Croissant, and Oui, Oui, Oui.

Posted by: pep at January 21, 2014 12:20 PM (6TB1Z)

308 213 But how does someone who wants to learn the language
not in five years but in two, and who is not immersed in the language,
learn it?
Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:51 PM (/FnUH)

Then you immerse yourself and accept that you may be functional in two years but probably not fully fluent. For Japanese there's something called AJATT (All Japanese All the Time) in which you try and fill your life as much as possible with Japanese content and interact with it so you're getting a lot of the effect of real immersion. I imagine there are similar techniques for other languages.

It turns out that learning a foreign language to fluency after puberty is one of the hardest things that a human can do. So accept that it's going to be hard and a lot of work and keep grinding away at it.

Posted by: Mætenloch at January 21, 2014 12:20 PM (pAlYe)

309 I would like to learn Thai. But it sounds hard with it's accents and inflexions. Plus, their writing looks like it's on the razor's edge of insanity.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (lp37X)

310 If you want to really get a good idea how stupid the average American is, have them read something out loud. It absolutely floors me sometimes that adults have that reading level.

Our education system is a joke, I don't know what happened to conservatives pushing school vouchers, but somehow a really great idea got lost in pushing dumb issues like rape babies and birth control.

A federal tax credit for school vouchers would only require a simple majority in the Senate to get through Congress.

Posted by: McAdams at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (3PXBx)

311 Except , the thing about Capt. Burton was , he was a 'no shit' genius and a strange and interesting man . We'll not see his like again .

Posted by: awkward davies at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (WK8VM)

312 She could not figure out a 15% tip in her head.... Nuff said... Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 04:16 PM (lZBBB) How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head?

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (b/Eg2)

313 249: born teachers: I was lucky to have an inspiring teacher in 3rd year of college. Changed my life. He went on to teach at MIT. He won the teaching excellence award *thirteen* times. I don't think you can "make" someone that good.

Posted by: Smilin' Jack at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (Xzj0B)

314 And Google and Chrome's auto-translate gets better every year. Whereas my Spanish gets worse if I don't constantly practice. No doubt in the fairly near future we'll have real-time audio language translation that let you carry on spoken conversations with almost anyone on the planet. It'll be like walking around with a translator with you. Slower and more awkward than if you were a native speaker, but good enough to function.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (ZPrif)

315 No one gets an award for suggesting we try the old, established, well-proven methods of teaching. You only get awards and recognition for proposing new ones.

PRO TIP: Before you "reform" an existing system, you had better understand why that system was there in the first place and why it had the characteristics that you intend to change.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (8ZskC)

316 Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:19 PM (/FnUH)

Burton said the first word you needed to know was the local vernacular for "Valu-Rite".

Posted by: Hrothgar at January 21, 2014 12:21 PM (o3MSL)

317 I likened it to a manager at a business. He (or she) is responsible and accountable for those people who work under them. Now how they go about managing the people (within reason) is up to them, the results of the group are what matter. I can understand the problem, there are other things going on here that can set the teacher up for failure through no fault of their own. However, on the flip side, if you have no standards, then the teachers literally have to do nothing in order to "succeed." Bad teachers are propagated with no way to remove them. Good teachers are frustrated. I just cannot see how something as vital as education does not have some system of merit. Huge difference. You can fire someone beneath you in a business. Or transfer them to someplace not mission-critical. What do you do with a kid who starts fights, deals drugs, and brings weapons to school. Oh, and is black and has a "behavioral disorder". Answer: Eric Holder says you can't kick them out more than x number of days at a time.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (P7Wsr)

318 She could not figure out a 15% tip in her head.... Nuff said... Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 04:16 PM (lZBBB) Holy. Shit.

Posted by: model_1066 at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (LIQGY)

319 We don't teach grammar because, well, apparently grammar is hard and hinders our creativity or something. And it's not just that they don't teach it; they don't know it. I remember when my daughter had a come-to-Jesus moment with a teacher over predicate nominatives. An eighth grader should not have to teach her teacher what a predicate nominative is.

Posted by: Caliban at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (DrC22)

320 I agree with your cargo cult analysis. But I don't mind teaching different methods to get to an answer. May benefit some kids. May not. What I strenuously object to is testing on process. I don't give a rat's ass how you come up with an answer to 7+7. There is only one answer. The great thing about math is there are many ways to get there. We should test kids on results. Not some stupid one-size-fits all process that some idiot thinks is the best way.

Posted by: DB at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (t4ld1)

321 227 But as anyone who's competent in an area knows there is a certain amount
of information that you have to just know without any thinking in order
to be competent.

---

So true. I emphasize to my students that if you understand first principles, most of the equations you need just fall into your lap.

Having said that, you still need to just *know* simple stuff like 1inch = 2.54cm, mass of 1 cubic cm of water is 1g, surface ares, volumes, basic geometry... all that shit should be automatic.

You should be able to see the derivative of simple function in seconds, be able to integrate and find the constant of integration in your head within seconds. There's more, but it's boring

But it's necessary to be able to do it instantly on the fly.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (x3YFz)

322 Your two year goal may not be realistic but there is much fun in the actual learning. ther4e re a number of Frog movies available and I would say watch as many of those as possible. Despicable Me & Despicable Me2 minions FTW!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (CRyse)

323 175 thanks, good idea

Posted by: Cameo Appearance at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (R8yKQ)

324

My comment is this:

I have six relatives who worked in public school education at one time or another. All six left in disgust. All six beg everyone they know with children to not allow said children to attend public school.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 21, 2014 12:22 PM (ZkzmI)

325 In other words, years of practice and I can read Spanish on my own as good as I can read Japanese with Google auto-translate.

That's fine for reading, but what if you want to understand what's going on in foreign pr0n?

Asking for a friend ...

Posted by: Waterhouse at January 21, 2014 12:23 PM (RUvjp)

326 Adult foreign language learning is really really hard. And, on a cost-benefit analysis level, probably not worth the time and effort. Unless you just get enjoyment from the process. Realistically, you'll probably benefit more spending the time learning another field you find interest -- like art. Then in 5 years you can use your Google Glass auto-translator to discuss your new art mastery with French chicks.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:23 PM (ZPrif)

327 @309 Here's an important lesson in the Thai language:
"You sickee?" *gestures*

Posted by: just another Amos Singletary-type guy at January 21, 2014 12:23 PM (1/4XQ)

328 How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head?

Alcohol?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 21, 2014 12:24 PM (SY2Kh)

329 How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head? She was trying to go at it from 15% from jump street?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:24 PM (CRyse)

330 Former Gitmo Detainee Arrested During Raids On Al-Qaeda Operatives In TurkeyÂ… GITMO And yet Obama wants to release even more Gitmo detainees so they can return to the battlefield. Weasel Zippers: The new math: releasing terrorist scum is a positive not a negative

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 21, 2014 12:24 PM (nzKvP)

331 New Math!!11!! With Chet Flake!!11!! (circa 1963?) My elementary school teachers didn't know WTF "New Math" was, so no questions, kids! Just watch the UHF video broadcast (no tapes to rewind! pre-VHS! better pay attention!) Result? Life-long illiteracy with numbers and figures. Thanks, Powers That Be In Their Wisdom.

Posted by: OK, thanks, bye at January 21, 2014 12:24 PM (RPDkq)

332 What kid who's been a student of "Whole Word" reading is ever going to win a spelling bee? Common core experts would probably say, "who cares, only nerds compete in spelling bees!"

Posted by: Chairman LMAO at January 21, 2014 12:24 PM (9eDbm)

333 328 How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head?

Alcohol?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 21, 2014 04:24 PM (SY2Kh)

eben durnk I kan do that!

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:25 PM (x3YFz)

334 That's fine for reading, but what if you want to understand what's going on in foreign pr0n?

Asking for a friend ...

If they're speaking German it's best not to stick around to find out.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 21, 2014 12:25 PM (SY2Kh)

335 328 How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head? Alcohol? Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 21, 2014 04:24 PM (SY2Kh) I'd have to be passed out drunk to not be able to do that math.

Posted by: model_1066 at January 21, 2014 12:25 PM (LIQGY)

336
Slightly on-topic: Has anyone used the Dragon or similar speech to text software and is it any good?

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 21, 2014 12:25 PM (n0DEs)

337 I'm serious. I went to Paris with a bunch of military guys--and we practically wore flags to egg them on and they all were extremely nice to us. I know that's not the rumor--but whatever. Some of the gals even went out of their way to tell us not to listen to their newspapers and Mitterand that they were more pro-American then that would have you believe. Shorty after that they voted in Sarkozy. Of course they have swung away from that--there is a duality in French political philosophy. Anyways.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (RJMhd)

338 When some thinking needs to be done though, I still think it's brainfood About nicotine: The good news? It is absolutely effective at focusing and maintaining attention to a problem. Bad news? It's half-life is really short and health issues.

Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (Ki8MM)

339 Here's an important lesson in the Thai language: "You sickee?" *gestures* Forget about it. Bangkok has him now.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (CRyse)

340 Funny comment on the phonetics vs whole-word thing: I learned to read at a very young age, using the phonetic method, and continued to pronounce and spell words more in that manner. It took a while for my spelling to improve, because of all the frustratingly stupid ways words are spelled in English. Anyway, fast forward to my twenties. I read a sign aloud at an event as "Horse Dovers" to my now-wife. She looked at me like I had snakes crawling out of my mouth.

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (b/Eg2)

341 Also, fuck winter.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (ZPrif)

342 Slightly on-topic: Has anyone used the Dragon or similar speech to text software and is it any good?

Yes and yes.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (8ZskC)

343 O/T not safe for 'ettes: So there's a kind of spider that makes, er, larger fake spiders: http://tinyurl.com/m2rmreq

Posted by: Brother Cavil wants out at January 21, 2014 12:26 PM (naUcP)

344 Fuck standards!

Posted by: The Atlanta School District at January 21, 2014 12:27 PM (oFCZn)

345 317 True, but I also think this is one of those things where having more choice of schools (and schooling methods) would work better for different types of students. So what is your suggestion?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:27 PM (TGgNi)

346 For some reason this thread has gotten "Eveyrthing Counts" stuck in my head. *goes off to youtube*

Posted by: Lauren at January 21, 2014 12:27 PM (hFL/3)

347 How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head? Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 04:21 PM (b/Eg2) Yup..... easy peasy..... but for some reason she couldn't do it.... even sober... And would guess.... be wrong.... and not know it because she did not seem to have that 'number sense' where you can look at something, and just TELL its wrong at a glance... But when you think about it.... there is a difference between DOING something.... and teaching a Scripted lesson....

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 12:28 PM (lZBBB)

348 Anyway, fast forward to my twenties. I read a sign aloud at an event as "Horse Dovers" to my now-wife. She looked at me like I had snakes crawling out of my mouth.

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 04:26 PM (b/Eg2)

took me 30 years to pronounce "Worcestershire sauce"

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:28 PM (x3YFz)

349 Is this a movie review?

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 21, 2014 12:28 PM (b/lt+)

350 This post is fucking awesome. Outstanding, Ace, and spot on. I'd add that the reason these people think these "new" educational methods should work is that they don't realize just how _microscopic_ the human attention span really is. Human beings look at the moving world through a pinhole in a sheet of canvas, and we survive by drawing in our expectations around the pinhole based on experience. Things that we have correctly filled in "resonate" with a feeling of rightness without requiring more than a tiny sliver of attention. This allows us to focus the rest wherever it is needed. The only reason we can function at high levels of complexity at all is that we have added (and then forgotten) layers and layers of pre-learned understanding, whose job it is to filter out anything that already makes predictable sense. People who mistake this complex capacity for the illusion of a large working memory will end up making lots of very expensive mistakes. Unfortunately for us, they are running the show...

Posted by: Piercello at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (jJ97i)

351 >>>Slightly on-topic: Has anyone used the Dragon or similar speech to text software and is it any good? Yes and yes. ... Really? I can't get it to work, not the way I like. I might have to corral you at some point and pick your brain on this.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (/FnUH)

352 Also, fuck winter. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 04:26 PM (ZPrif) Yeah well from where I sit in here in NJ, winter is fucking us

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (nzKvP)

353 That's because the sign was in French, CAC, and not in English.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (vuh7l)

354 309 I would like to learn Thai. But it sounds hard with it's accents and inflexions. Plus, their writing looks like it's on the razor's edge of insanity. Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 04:21 PM (lp37X) ********** Getting kind of unstable there lately.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (RJMhd)

355 341 Also, fuck winter. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 04:26 PM (ZPrif) /looks out the window... 60 degrees and sunny out... What winter.... Ski Resorts are not even open yet.... (California)...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (lZBBB)

356 Has anyone used the Dragon or similar speech to text software and is it any good? Dat pwogwahm sohcks!

Posted by: Marlee Matlin at January 21, 2014 12:29 PM (3mMDl)

357 Want a language with a raft of bullshit rules that make no sense? Try German, aka "Hunt The Dependent Clause". or, Allah forbid, classical Arabic. Note that nobody has ever actually spoken classical Arabic, it was a literary language from the start.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at January 21, 2014 12:30 PM (4hJ83)

358 Just in cae you were thinking of going there: The Thai government has imposed a 60-day state of emergency in the capital, Bangkok, and the surrounding provinces, from Wednesday, to cope with unrest. The decree gives the government wide-ranging powers to deal with disorder. Anti-government protesters have been blocking parts of the capital to try to force PM Yingluck Shinawatra to resign. They accuse the government of being run by exiled former leader Thaksin Shinawatra, the brother of the current prime minister. Ms Yingluck has refused to resign and has called an election on 2 February to pacify the protesters. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25825872

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:30 PM (RJMhd)

359 just kidding.. Ace - you hit the nail on the head with the phonics stuff.. There is no way around first learning phonetically.

And the thing about numbers.. once you learn the basic rules from 0-20, it applies to any addition you can ever think up... geez.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 21, 2014 12:30 PM (b/lt+)

360 The only reason we can function at high levels of complexity at all is that we have added (and then forgotten) layers and layers of pre-learned understanding, whose job it is to filter out anything that already makes predictable sense.
Posted by: Piercello at January 21, 2014 04:29 PM (jJ97i)

heh... imagining the lib/commie brain with layers of pre-learned bullshit.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (x3YFz)

361 TL;DR, Piercello

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (vuh7l)

362 what the hell does hors d'oevures even mean? Even in French I can't guess at it. "Hors" is "outside," "d'" is just "of" or from or some other preposition, and oevures is "artworks" or "works" or something. What the hell? "outside of artworks?" I'm going to look that up.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (/FnUH)

363 310--- I don't know what happened to conservatives pushing school vouchers, but somehow a really great idea got lost in pushing dumb issues like rape babies and birth control. Posted by: McAdams at January 21, 2014 04:21 PM (3PXBx) ----------------------------- You just answered your own question, at least partially. It doesn't matter if a conservative pushes for school vouchers because the MSM will ignore that and talk about rape babies and birth control. It is the media, not the conservative candidate, that sets the agenda. Besides that, candidates that promote school choice are not seeking to improve education. They want to destroy the public schools!!! OMG! Or they want to impose a theocracy!!! Or raaaaaaaaacism. Or homophobe!!!!

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (dfYL9)

364 Uhhhm. Mebe the ruling class does not want us rubes to be more learned than them?

Posted by: Cicero Kid at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (tcK++)

365 took me 30 years to pronounce "Worcestershire sauce Worstershire. Texan - Werstershire.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (CRyse)

366 Also, fuck winter. You don't get to fuck winter, winter fucks you.

Posted by: Shldon Cooper [/i] at January 21, 2014 12:31 PM (Ki8MM)

367 How can you not figure 10% of something, then half it, then add the two together in your head? Alcohol? Just brought back a fond memory of 8th grade math class. Our teacher taught us percentages by using the example of making "Cape Coddahs." (I grew up in Mass.) "If Danny makes a Cape Coddah with 5 ounces of vodker and 10 ounces of cranberry, what pahcent of the cawktail is liquah?" That was MY Common Core, and it has served me well. And I'm sure you'd get fired for teaching so effectively nowadays.

Posted by: jakeman at January 21, 2014 12:32 PM (vH4YP)

368 324 All six left in disgust. All six beg everyone they know with children to not allow said children to attend public school. Every day I see how much my two year old learns. I know he is smart, but he really does surprise me on a daily basis. I mean, he is two and he figured out how to count to ten in Spanish by watching a train video. I see how he just wants to learn and wants to learn, and I remember how that was just taken out of me in public school because of the boredom I faced in public school. I am happy every day that neither of my children will suffer that fate. Even to the point that if we (his mother and I) pass away, everything will be financially taken care of such that the couple who would get our children wouldn't have to work so they can homeschool in our absence.

Posted by: traye at January 21, 2014 12:32 PM (0o1vp)

369 Posted by: Piercello at January 21, 2014 04:29 PM (jJ97i) Yup.... the Human brain is a pattern recognition engine.... It looks for patterns, so it can predict what is going on around you without having to give it full attention.... Surprise is what happens when something breaks that pattern.... and if you don't have a pre planned pattern in place when surprised??? That is why the Military trains the way it does... it builds patterns of behavior into you, that you will do when your brain is still trying to figure out the new pattern...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 12:32 PM (lZBBB)

370 okay here's what it means: hors d'Âœuvre [ɔʁ dÂœvʁ] ( listen), literally "apart from the [main] work") or the first course oeuvre, which means work or project or that sort of thing, is taken to mean the meal proper. So a hors d'oeuvre is outside of that.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:32 PM (/FnUH)

371 Really? I can't get it to work, not the way I like.

I might have to corral you at some point and pick your brain on this.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:29 PM (/FnUH)

I went with Rosetta Stone for Russian. And queued up every russian movie on Netflix to help.

eh... can't complain.

I can now order a mail order bride.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:33 PM (x3YFz)

372 hors d'oeuvres: outside of work meaning, not the main course.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:33 PM (EvHC8)

373 What the hell? "outside of artworks?" I'm going to look that up. Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:31 PM (/FnUH) Artworks (or works) maybe being the main course? So...outside the main course?

Posted by: [/i][/b][/u][/s] Tami at January 21, 2014 12:33 PM (bCEmE)

374 It probably indicates "outside of the main course(s)", Ace.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:33 PM (vuh7l)

375 Even in French I can't guess at it. "Hors" is "outside," "d'" is just "of" or from or some other preposition, and oevures is "artworks" or "works" or something. What the hell? "outside of artworks?" Outside of a meal, if a meal is a work of art. Kinda like hush puppies.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:33 PM (CRyse)

376 Anyway, fast forward to my twenties. I read a sign aloud at an event as "Horse Dovers" to my now-wife. She looked at me like I had snakes crawling out of my mouth.

Yeah, I learned to read phonetically (though poorly) before Kindergarten, mostly from watching too much Sesame Street.

The teacher refused to believe this when my Mom informed him of this. He suggested I wasn't really reading but merely memorized some words. We proved that smug fucker wrong when he handed me a book.

All was well until I stupidly raised my hand when a third grade teacher asked us if we could pronounce the name of the country Niger.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 21, 2014 12:34 PM (SY2Kh)

377

I thought the neck of an A1 bottle said "shackwell" into my 20's.

I have no explanation for that.

Posted by: eleven at January 21, 2014 12:34 PM (fsLdt)

378 It's a shame about Thailand. We had the opportunity to move there a few years ago, but decided against it because of the instability in the south with all the Muslims. Looks like we made the right decision.

Posted by: Lauren at January 21, 2014 12:34 PM (hFL/3)

379 >>> It probably indicates "outside of the main course(s)", Ace. yup confirmed.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:34 PM (/FnUH)

380 Don't forget about 'hors de combat'.

Posted by: Mætenloch at January 21, 2014 12:35 PM (pAlYe)

381
Worstershire.
Texan - Werstershire.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 04:31 PM (CRyse)

I kept pronouncing it war chest her shire.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:35 PM (x3YFz)

382 Really? I can't get it to work, not the way I like.

It has certain limitations but those are from how I write, not from a flaw in the product.

In the pre-computer days I would dictate an entire brief onto tape. That's a hard skill to learn. I pretty much lost that skill when I began using word processors. I now write in movable sections, bouncing around the paper adding here, tweaking there, rather than starting at the beginning and ending at the end in one long train of thought. Dragon can be more cumbersome than it's worth for this.

OTOH, when I'm quoting long sections of an opposing brief or some other crap, it's ideal. That naturally goes from start to finish so I just read the thing into the headset and it goes right into the document with pretty minimal correcting. It's great for short letters and email too.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 21, 2014 12:35 PM (8ZskC)

383 So what is your suggestion? Get the government out of schools. Period. All schools are private, and have their own code of conduct and methods for determining your level of capability. The successful schools flourish, the bad schools languish. Kids with parents who care will find their way to the better schools, or home school. Kids with parents who are lazy, alcoholic, welfare cheats will keep their kids wherever they choose, but they won't bring down the kids who have a chance.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:35 PM (P7Wsr)

384 Our teacher taught us percentages by using the example of making "Cape Coddahs." (I grew up in Mass.) "If Danny makes a Cape Coddah with 5 ounces of vodker and 10 ounces of cranberry, what pahcent of the cawktail is liquah?" That was MY Common Core, and it has served me well. And I'm sure you'd get fired for teaching so effectively nowadays. One more time. In English, please?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:35 PM (CRyse)

385 I don't think they say "oeuvre" anymore for course, though. I'm not sure what they say but I don't remember hearing "premiÃ¨re oeurvre."

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:35 PM (/FnUH)

386 >> I'm going to look that up. while your at it, look up canape

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (LWu6U)

387 I took 3 or 4 years of French in High School, and then reported to the University of Miami's ROTC Battalion. I've spent a decnt chunk of my adult life in SoCal and Vegas. I did teach a 3-day training class on an EDI software product to Molson at one point, which was the closest I've ever come to using any of the French. Yet another great moment in the "but *everyone* is taking Spanish, I need to be different," saga. Sigh.

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (6bMel)

388 Hors d'oeuvres = appetizers. Because in French, why say one word, when three or more will do.

Posted by: moki at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (EvHC8)

389

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:31 PM (/FnUH)

It was originally used as an architect term and taken over by French cooks to mean food served outside of the main course.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (m2CN7)

390 heh... imagining the lib/commie brain with layers of pre-learned bullshit. Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 04:31 PM (x3YFz) The Pathology of the Liberal Brain??? Stems from the idea that Perception IS Reality. They think that 'if' they can force someone to perceive something in a certain way, then that 'becomes' reality.... and they will then act upon that False pattern. thus.... Global Warming people REALLY believe that it is happening... because they 'think' that pattern is valid... even when objective measurable reality tells them differently.

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (lZBBB)

391 One more time. In English, please?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 04:35 PM (CRyse)

just be glad he's not Cajun.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (x3YFz)

392 That's because the sign was in French, CAC, and not in English. Posted by: andycanuck at January 21, 2014 04:29 PM (vuh7l) That was my excuse, but my wife countered with "have you never heard of an "or-durve"?

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 12:36 PM (b/Eg2)

393 I love Thailand...been there at least 8 times (we lived in Singapore....easy vacation trip to Thailand). Never had a bad experience there....people are great and welcoming.

Posted by: [/i][/b][/u][/s] Tami at January 21, 2014 12:37 PM (bCEmE)

394 In any case, the notion that elementary school kids don't like memorizing is horse manure. Kids of a certain age love to learn all sorts of facts by rote, from multiplication tables, to capitals, to parts of a flower.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 12:37 PM (dfYL9)

395 Nood up!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 12:37 PM (CRyse)

396 i just checked wordreference.com and they don't, in fact, use "oeuvre" for "course" or "main meal," EXCEPT in the word combination "hors d'oeurvres."

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:38 PM (/FnUH)

397 377 I thought the neck of an A1 bottle said "shackwell" into my 20's. I have no explanation for that. Posted by: eleven at January 21, 2014 04:34 PM (fsLdt) ********* I love that stuff. Next time I buy it I'll be looking at the bottle differently to try and see what you mean.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:38 PM (RJMhd)

398 Mmm. Petits fours. Little ovens. Mmm.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:38 PM (vuh7l)

399 396 i just checked wordreference.com and they don't, in fact, use "oeuvre" for "course" or "main meal," EXCEPT in the word combination "hors d'oeurvres." Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:38 PM (/FnUH) ***** Weird.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:38 PM (RJMhd)

400 My ASVAB test deviated more than 10 percent in a later {math}segment, which they deduced MUST mean I cheated by collaberating with my recruiter, so I had to do a short "make-up" type math test to prove I really didn't know the basics for some math, but could intuit some higher forms. Bumped my final score 3 or 4 points, I think?

Anyway, I dropped out of HS at 16, and worked for a donut shop - I did math shortcuts in my head all day long, so some math was easy! But fractions? Kicked my butt.

I am a word person, with numbers dyslexia - I'd never have passed the ASVAB or gone to college if they hadn't of done rote teaching in the 70's!

Posted by: Amy Shulkusky at January 21, 2014 12:39 PM (3ONFH)

401 383 And I agree completely 100% with that. I just do not see it happening short of the collapse.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:39 PM (TGgNi)

402 >>>It was originally used as an architect term and taken over by French cooks to mean food served outside of the main course. what's the architecture term? just hors d'oeuvre? What would it mean? An outbuilding or some other minor structure in a project?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:39 PM (/FnUH)

403 396 i just checked wordreference.com and they don't, in fact, use "oeuvre" for "course" or "main meal," EXCEPT in the word combination "hors d'oeurvres." Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:38 PM (/FnUH) That confirms it....the French are freakin' weird.

Posted by: [/i][/b][/u][/s] Tami at January 21, 2014 12:39 PM (bCEmE)

404 Did you try listening to the French-language CBC (Service Radio Canada) news online, Ace, that I suggested in an email?

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:39 PM (vuh7l)

405 362 hors d'oeuvres. Wikipedia says literally , "apart from the (main) work". Twhat is, the first course.

Posted by: Smilin' Jack at January 21, 2014 12:40 PM (Xzj0B)

406 Kids of a certain age love to learn all sorts of facts by rote, from multiplication tables, to capitals, to parts of a flower.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at January 21, 2014 04:37 PM (dfYL9)

I still remember the state capitals from my sixth grade memorization requirement. Even Louisiana made you learn something besides skinning gators and making gumbo.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:40 PM (m2CN7)

407 396 i just checked wordreference.com and they don't, in fact, use "oeuvre" for "course" or "main meal," EXCEPT in the word combination "hors d'oeurvres."
Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:38 PM (/FnUH)

Those French - it's like they have a different word for everything.
-- Steve martin

Posted by: Mætenloch at January 21, 2014 12:40 PM (pAlYe)

408 "what the hell does hors d'oevures even mean?

Even in French I can't guess at it. "Hors" is "outside," "d'" is just "of" or from or some other preposition, and oevures is "artworks" or "works" or something.

What the hell? "outside of artworks?" "
===============

Great. Now I'm starving. Thanks a lot, Ace.

Posted by: Kensington at January 21, 2014 12:40 PM (Z7toi)

409 My mother stuck me in Japanese pre-K then a French kindergarden. I am all kinds of illiterate. Yeah! Dyslexic too. And with that I'm off to change socks. pfffftttt.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:40 PM (RJMhd)

410 Ahaa. Always new there was another dood who lurned to reede using "Good Grief, More Peanuts!"

Werked fer mi.

Needed help pronouncing "Psychiatric" the first time, though, IIRC.

Posted by: J. Moses Browning at January 21, 2014 12:40 PM (61Cnj)

411 I was raised by my great-aunt and great-uncle for the first part of my childhood. They read to me every night and had me memorize basic addition, subtraction and the multiplication table up to 12 x 12. So when I went to kindergarten, I already knew the subjects being taught. And I could read. These days, knowing that 8 x 8 is 64 off the top of my head seems like magic to the kids. BTW, my aunt and uncle were high school graduates and had no special training. Additionally, both had attended segregated schools.

Posted by: baldilocks at January 21, 2014 12:41 PM (36Rjy)

412 just hors d'oeuvre? What would it mean? An outbuilding or some other minor structure in a project?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:39 PM (/FnUH)

I think a building or structure that was not part of the original architectual plans.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:41 PM (m2CN7)

413 I just do not see it happening short of the collapse. Agreed.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 21, 2014 12:42 PM (P7Wsr)

414 402 >>>It was originally used as an architect term and taken over by French cooks to mean food served outside of the main course. what's the architecture term? just hors d'oeuvre? What would it mean? An outbuilding or some other minor structure in a project? Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:39 PM (/FnUH) *********** Maybe it started out as a picnic item? Marie Antoinette use to do fingerfood things in her garden. Now I'm really out.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 12:42 PM (RJMhd)

415 One of my earliest recollections (maybe my earliest) is sounding out the word "BAKERY" when we were getting some bread or donuts. My parents were pretty impressed. (I was nineteen years old.) The soft bigotry if low expectations: warms parents' hearts every time!

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] at January 21, 2014 12:42 PM (71bXH)

416 I love French, but it's not a language for pussies, mainly because you have to be willing to sound like a pussy in order to speak it properly.

And that, ironically, takes balls.

Posted by: Kensington at January 21, 2014 12:42 PM (Z7toi)

417 IMHO, the key to understanding the liberal mind is that pattern-recognition is inherently local. It has to be, if you are to handle the unexpected. Something gets internalized if it works repeatedly Here, Now. Across-the-board consistency is nice from a practical standpoint, but not internally necessary. So, if you drum contradicting ideas into somebody's head hard enough for them to become independently emotionally defended, you have just short-circuited their innate capacity for logical thought. The only defense, and it is imperfect, is to cultivate an emotional attachment to logic itself; to "knowing what is really going on," rather than "being right."

Posted by: Piercello at January 21, 2014 12:43 PM (jJ97i)

418 okay well "canape" in french means couch. Interestingly, I do not see in WordReference.com a use of "canape" for "finger food" as it is in English. Their list of usages all mean "couch" or "sofa," etc. The English use "canape" because piling stuff on bread (as in bruschetta) is similar to someone sitting on a couch. But this is apparently an English use of a French word to mean something the french DON'T mean by it. They just mean couch, it looks like. Unless the English usage has trickled back over.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:43 PM (/FnUH)

419 Getting kind of unstable there lately.

Posted by: President Kim Kardashian Yeezy typing through the Time Space Continuum at January 21, 2014 04:29 PM (RJMhd)

-----------------------------------------------

Bangkok has always been politically unstable. Five or six years ago when I was there they had just rolled out the tanks and APC's for a coup on the president. Didn't even notice anything happening. No problems. The Thai people are strange.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 12:43 PM (lp37X)

420 I see this all the time on forums, the usual whining that "schools teach by rote memorization, they don't teach how to think!" The problem is lower and lower expectations as time goes on and abandoning teaching methods that worked. Well, one of the problems. Sowell put it basically thus: "there's too much tree hugging, and not enough drilling on the three Rs." Students (pupils) need a solid foundation. They need to crawl before they can walk, run, or fly. Imagine a student who thought he could be an engineer but skip calculus?

Posted by: fb at January 21, 2014 12:43 PM (JVEmw)

421 I think a building or structure that was not part of the original architectural plans.
That's interesting, polynikes.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:44 PM (vuh7l)

422 "Picnic" actually has no clear etymology. it comes from the French Pique-nique, but no one knows why that means picnic, either. IIRC, piquer is to prick (as an urchin's spines), and niquer is to "pick up," as in, "seduce," so... what up? Is a picnic known for being a Sex Opportunity?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:45 PM (/FnUH)

423 I hate it when I get in late to make Book Review jokes

Posted by: Shecky Soetoro at January 21, 2014 12:45 PM (Pr6hk)

424 A canape I think again, going from trivia answers, originates from a netting over a couch thus a canopy. I think it just eventually became the word for a couch.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:46 PM (m2CN7)

425 actually niquer doesn't mean seduce. it means to F***, or penetrate. I'm not understanding why a picnic is made up of two words that involve penetration.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:47 PM (/FnUH)

426 425 You have been going on the wrong type of picnics, obviously.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:48 PM (TGgNi)

427 actually niquer doesn't mean seduce. it means to F***, or penetrate. I'm not understanding why a picnic is made up of two words that involve penetration. Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:47 PM (/FnUH) Wait. People aren't supposed to fuck at a picnic?

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 12:48 PM (b/Eg2)

428 okay picnic does have a clear etymology. I thought I'd read it didn't. But this says it does: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pique-nique piquer can also mean 'steal or pinch," and nique can mean a "small thing," so a pique-nique is I guess grabbing a bunch of little foods.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:49 PM (/FnUH)

429 Is a picnic known for being a Sex Opportunity?
It is if you're having a dÃ©jeuner sur l'herbe with an impressionist's girlfriend.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:49 PM (vuh7l)

430 Well, now I see why all those people in the park were screaming.

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 12:50 PM (b/Eg2)

431

A neat app for your smart phone is a trivia app called Knowledge Trainer.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:50 PM (m2CN7)

432 Wow. The hawt chick on Cavuto right now has the naughty librarian look down pat.

Posted by: Soona at January 21, 2014 12:50 PM (lp37X)

433 Teaching Kids How to Think and Other Lies: It is an article of faith among educators -- most of whom are not really very good at thinking themselves -- that they should be "teaching kids how to think," rather than engaging in rote repetition and drilling. The biggest lie of them all! How do I know? Because, in many a classroom that I have visited lately (full disclosure: our kids have been out of high school for over a decade now), there is Democrap propaganda on prominent display (the ubiquitous "O" shit) and nary a scrap that suggests that there may be an alternate point of view. "Think like me", rather than, "Think critically, and for yourself".

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] at January 21, 2014 12:51 PM (71bXH)

434 Like the passengers in your grandfather's car while he died peacefully in his sleep, CAC?

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at January 21, 2014 12:51 PM (vuh7l)

435 430 So prudish. If you cannot have sex while people play ultimate Frisbee around you, where are you supposed to do it?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:51 PM (TGgNi)

436 >> 160, Ace, please stay after class and write out 100 times "prepositions are not the same as pronouns " Oh, and what makes Finnish nouns crazy is not all the different cases, but knowing when to use, and not use, the Partitive

Finally, on learning a new language quickly, you can get enough to order a cup of coffee or decipher a newspaper headline quite quickly, but to be able to say or write exactly what you want to say, exactly how you want to say it, right away without hesitation, that takes years of work in any language "easy" or otherwise.

Posted by: Robbo at January 21, 2014 12:52 PM (lqikJ)

437 I don't know if anyone mentioned this upthread. Sorry if it is a repeat. Common Core does not have any math standards after algebra 2. The kids will not be ready for a college career in sci, tech, engineering or math. A high school math education does not and should not end before precal. Not for all children! Dumbing down the high school math curriculum is a huge disservice to kids. Pretty sad.

Posted by: lauren w at January 21, 2014 12:53 PM (b0HMH)

438 435 430 So prudish. If you cannot have sex while people play ultimate Frisbee around you, where are you supposed to do it? Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 04:51 PM (TGgNi) Just so I can avoid the same mistake again, going balls-deep in a field under an old tree is a BAD thing?

Posted by: CAC at January 21, 2014 12:54 PM (b/Eg2)

439 92 Funny, when I was in college (in the US), we students from deepest darkest Africa generally vastly outperformed the natives. And we didn't have any fancy methods or handholding either. School was harsh and hard. Although it seems education there is going to crap like do many other things. Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at January 21, 2014 03:40 PM (r+7wo) As with other *voluntary* immigrants, Africans who have come here in the last 50 years self-select to immigrate. IMO that usually means the smarter and/or most motivated. Oh and you all don't have free education back home, right?

Posted by: baldilocks at January 21, 2014 12:54 PM (36Rjy)

440 Slightly on-topic: Has anyone used the Dragon or similar speech to text software and is it any good? Surprisingly so. We are moving our doctors to talk-to-text rather having transcriptionists.

Posted by: toby928© at January 21, 2014 12:55 PM (QupBk)

441 They may be teaching this method in addition to other methods. And knowing the 7+3 = 10 is critical to other areas. All I know is that my kid is learning algebra in 4th grade and grasps it pretty decently. We do a ton of extra work though - we stopped Kumon because it did not work with our kid, but instead we now do Moby Max.

Posted by: sexypig at January 21, 2014 12:57 PM (dZQh7)

442 Slightly on-topic: Has anyone used the Dragon or similar speech to text software and is it any good?

Surprisingly so. We are moving our doctors to talk-to-text rather having transcriptionists.

Posted by: toby928Â© at January 21, 2014 04:55 PM (QupBk)

I think the software they have on the I-Phone is great. It rarely makes an error.

Posted by: polynikes at January 21, 2014 12:57 PM (m2CN7)

443 438 I was going to go into "virgin" fields as opposed to "well plowed furrows" but thought it was better to abstain...

Posted by: Aetius451AD at January 21, 2014 12:58 PM (TGgNi)

444 >>>I don't know if anyone mentioned this upthread. Sorry if it is a repeat. Common Core does not have any math standards after algebra 2. The kids will not be ready for a college career in sci, tech, engineering or math. A high school math education does not and should not end before precal. Not for all children! yeah I should have mentioned that. They're dumbing down the curriculum, covering less ground. They claim they're "teaching students how to think" because instead of teaching precalculus they're going to teach them "shortcuts" like "number bonds." So their claim is they're teaching more and teaching better. The fact is they're teaching less, and teaching stupid shit.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 12:58 PM (/FnUH)

445 All I can say about Common Core is, NOT MY SON. NOT NOW, NOT EVER!

My son is learning to read by phonics, learning arithmetic by memorization, learning history instead of social studies, and learning religion by doing it. Daily. With his mom and dad. And other like minded folk, who take education and religion seriously.

Public school blows and has blown since I was forced to go through it in the '70's. It has only gotten worse. I am utterly amazed that kids who attend public schools can even get up in the morning and find the right end of the toothbrush.

Posted by: tcn at January 21, 2014 12:59 PM (fwcEs)

446 though as I remember it "precalc" was nothing of the sort, and in fact was easier than algebra I and II. But then again, I had a teacher near retirement who would literally say, every day, "Do you want to learn about compounding interest or do you want to study on your own while I read the newspaper?" No, literally. So we did occasionally cover basic things like compounding interest and other stuff which was, in my memory, easier than algebra (and which could have easily have been taught before algebra). oh wait did we do sin and cosin there? Okay maybe we did that. and radians, maybe.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 01:00 PM (/FnUH)

447 I'd have to be passed out drunk to not be able to do that math.

Posted by: model_1066 at January 21, 2014 04:25 PM (LIQGY)

When drunk, I divide the bill by 10 and double the answer because I'm a giver that way!

Posted by: Hrothgar at January 21, 2014 01:01 PM (o3MSL)

448 When drunk, I divide the bill by 10 and double the answer because I'm a giver that way! A buck for every five.

Posted by: toby928© at January 21, 2014 01:02 PM (QupBk)

449 oh wait did we do sin and cosin there? Okay maybe we did that.

and radians, maybe.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 05:00 PM (/FnUH)

And we did it around the dinner table with Dad. He also pointed out a few years ago that we did not get the same public school education the other kids in our class did, because we were expected to learn something outside of the crap they loaded us up with. Poetry? Robert Service recited at the dinner table. Pie-radians (misspelled on purpose) to determine how to divide an apple pie into seven equal pieces. Fractions and decimals? Cooking dinner with mom. Etc. Rinse, Repeat.

Posted by: tcn at January 21, 2014 01:04 PM (fwcEs)

450 Imagine a student who thought he could be an engineer but skip calculus?

Posted by: fb at January 21, 2014 04:43 PM (JVEmw)

Coming soon to a green energy company near you!

Posted by: Hrothgar at January 21, 2014 01:05 PM (o3MSL)

451 Imagine a student who thought he could be an engineer but skip calculus? Oh, God, why did I miss this thread?

Posted by: AmishDude at January 21, 2014 01:06 PM (T0NGe)

452 >>>Ace, please stay after class and write out 100 times "prepositions are not the same as pronouns " did I mis-write one for the other? I know what they are. Oh, and what makes Finnish nouns crazy is not all the different cases, but knowing when to use, and not use, the Partitive ... Why? I actually know what that is now. In english it's represented by "some" as in "some cake." It's a vague expression of a fraction of a whole as opposed to being able to count, by integers, the quantity (four pieces of cake, for example). I only know that from learning the French. So many rules of our own language are invisible to us because we just "know" how things work-- but we don't know why they work that way. ... >>>Finally, on learning a new language quickly, you can get enough to order a cup of coffee or decipher a newspaper headline quite quickly, but to be able to say or write exactly what you want to say, exactly how you want to say it, right away without hesitation, that takes years of work in any language "easy" or otherwise. ... Yes I agree. I'm at the "able to read newspapers, mostly" stage. I understand that this is the first step, and that the other ones are way up higher on the staircase.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 01:07 PM (/FnUH)

453 I remember as an elementary student, our teacher took us out onto the playground, had us form circles and we would bounce a ball to someone in the circle while calling out a multiplication question. 2 x 7! and the person catching the ball had to answer. If you didn't know, you had to stand outside the circle and so on. We had been warned all week to have our multiplication tables memorized. African Chick, I worked with someone who came here as a high school grad from Sierra Leone.She was scared she was going to be behind so she enrolled in high school, junior year. She was so bored after the first month that she enrolled in a local community college instead. Finished out her first year within the semester and went on to enroll in her major and finished that within the prescribed time and started working as she was one of the top in her class.

Posted by: Jen at January 21, 2014 01:08 PM (4t/Y9)

454 So to sum up the entire article, Common Core sucks. Agreed.

Posted by: MrX at January 21, 2014 01:10 PM (q8eh5)

455 If you're taking language advice from Sir Richard Burton, you should know a few things about him. He was a horndog. Screwed his way across three continents.

Went to a lot of pique-niques, if you will.

I have always attributed his language skills to his, erm, need to use language.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at January 21, 2014 01:15 PM (xq1UY)

456 What's even stupider is that there are only 10 numbers - 0 thru 9, and memorizing all the additions/subtractions/multiplications amongst that set is trivial As you point out, not to the six year old who is only just starting out, but by the time she's done it 5,000 times its second nature, like breathing. What I've found lately is that I tend to do my operations from left to right, as that gets me more quickly to "back of the envelop" close numbers, and then only a bit more work to get to "completely accurate" numbers. Because sometimes I'm only interested in an approximation.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at January 21, 2014 01:15 PM (1hM1d)

457 @451 Dude, you're right there in @97.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at January 21, 2014 01:17 PM (xq1UY)

458 Re: foreign language learning At the beginning of the basic German course at DLI (1985) the first two weeks consisted of learning *English* grammar--the grammar I learned in eighth grade (1973) and promptly discarded. The German instructors found that relearning the topic made their larger task much easier. Now I'm told that basic English grammar is the first topic in all DLI basic language courses.

Posted by: baldilocks at January 21, 2014 01:17 PM (36Rjy)

459 455 If you're taking language advice from Sir Richard Burton, you should know a few things about him. He was a horndog. Screwed his way across three continents. You say that like it's a bad thing. Frankly, it sounds like the AoSHQ approved lifestyle, if he drank Val-U-Rite. And I'm pretty sure Sir Richard could drink sizable portions of the Moron Horde under the table. I don't think he could drink me under the table, but my liver might be frightened and confused.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at January 21, 2014 01:17 PM (1hM1d)

460 I started learning Japanese in my 50s, it's an eye-opening experience. Aside from the kana (phonic characters), Japanese has about 2000 Chinese characters (kanji) that have to be learned for basic functional literacy. You can't sound out a kanji character, you have to learn what each sounds like, and that means wrote memorization. There are some learning systems where you try to see mnemonic pictures in the characters, but, in general, they don't work worth a damn past a few dozen characters. Actually, it's not even that easy, because each kanji character can have several sounds depending on the context where it's used, so you have to memorize each character in each context (essentially "whole word" memorization). Now consider that the education system in Japan finishes teaching the 2000 kanji characters by the end of middle school. Imagine if you didn't know all your ABCs until the 10th grade. Teaching literacy in Japan takes up a huge percentage of education resources because of their written language; it's no wonder their school year has much more days than ours. To seriously propose throwing away our phonic advantage and moving directly to whole-word, our "educators" have to be totally nuts.

Posted by: Socratease at January 21, 2014 01:21 PM (SZUi2)

461 I don't understand the resistance to this way of doing math. When you get to Calculus you had better now how to use the associative property of addition, which is all this is, they're just not calling it that. Upper-level mathematics requires proficiency in rearranging difficult equations to find simple ones. It seems to me that's what they're trying to get an earlier start ad teaching with this. And in fact, don't we all do this? If you're standing in line at the grocery store, the running total is $104.97 and the the item being rung up is 5.03 do you mentally think "7 +3 is 10 carry the one, 9+1 is 10, carry the one, 5+4+1 is 10, carry the one, therefore 1 is in the 10's column and 1 is in the hundreds column therefore the total is about to be 110.00?" I bet instead you think "Ima steal that 5.03's .03 to make my 104.97 = 105 even and add an even 5 to that so 110."

Posted by: major major major major at January 21, 2014 01:22 PM (X9vO1)

462

"Then backwardly there are theories that language influences the way you think."

There was something on the radio a while back about the difference between people who speak languages with masculine and feminine pronouns and those that don't and how they think of those objects that have been designated masculine or feminine, verses those who have them reversed, or like english not designated (cat is femine, verses cat is masculine, verses cat is neither.) Sort of interesting.

Posted by: Lea at January 21, 2014 01:23 PM (lIU4e)

463 I'm sick and cannot type apparently. Or proofread.

Posted by: major major major major at January 21, 2014 01:23 PM (X9vO1)

464 Upper-level mathematics requires proficiency in rearranging difficult equations to find simple ones. It seems to me that's what they're trying to get an earlier start ad teaching with this. Yup, same thing as the "New Math" in the 60's, except they changed the names of things to be trendy and confuse children and their parents. I was a victim of the "New Math", the concepts meant nothing to a 2nd or 3rd grader, just funny names we had to memorize for unknown reasons. By the time I reached the point where they were useful, I had forgotten them.

Posted by: Socratease at January 21, 2014 01:28 PM (SZUi2)

465 I don't want to be "that guy", but the picture is exactly the method I use to add up larger numbers in my head.

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at January 21, 2014 01:31 PM (E8IHS)

466 My kids didn't get the rote memorization in school but I taught them Blackjack when they were very little. Worked very well for simple arithmetic and socially they were the "cool" kids.

Posted by: Mustbequantum at January 21, 2014 01:33 PM (MIKMs)

467 >>> I don't understand the resistance to this way of doing math. When you get to Calculus you had better now how to use the associative property of addition, which is all this is, they're just not calling it that. Upper-level mathematics requires proficiency in rearranging difficult equations to find simple ones. It seems to me that's what they're trying to get an earlier start ad teaching with this. And in fact, don't we all do this? If you're standing in line at the grocery store, the running total is $104.97 and the the item being rung up is 5.03 do you mentally think "7 +3 is 10 carry the one, 9+1 is 10, carry the one, 5+4+1 is 10, carry the one, therefore 1 is in the 10's column and 1 is in the hundreds column therefore the total is about to be 110.00?" I bet instead you think "Ima steal that 5.03's .03 to make my 104.97 = 105 even and add an even 5 to that so 110." ... What you're getting at is ease of, fluency at, mathematical manipulation, which is every bit as important as you say. But that fluency comes from *internalization* of the basic rules such that one is not even aware there are rules at all (as in, no one says "Seven plus seven is fourteen because I learned it that way;" we automatically just sum 7 and 7 to fourteen without even being aware of the mental process going on in the background). And that internalization comes from drilling and memorization, first. As I say in the post, there is nothing wrong with these more advanced insights and realizations. They're valuable. We are talking about the ORDER OF THINGS. If a kid is fucking have problems with 7 + 7 = 14, if that most basic rule is throwing him for a loop, then how, I ask you, does it help him to teach: "Well, numbers are made up of smaller numbers and we can see 7 is a 3 and a 4 so if we add that three to the first 7 to get ten (and we want to get to ten because our numbering system is base 10 and the base number of any system is always computationally easier to work with) and add the remainder of four to the ten we've established from the third step we get fourteen." As I said in my piece (did you read it? did you bother?), there is a value in this and I do it myself. But I learned it sort of myself, just from having internalized the basic rules of arithmetic so thoroughly that they became as automatic and intuitive as speaking English sentences and then, having internalized the rules, I was in a place where I could question the rules, play with them, tweak things, move things around in my mind.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 01:35 PM (/FnUH)

468 >>>At the beginning of the basic German course at DLI (1985) the first two weeks consisted of learning *English* grammar--the grammar I learned in eighth grade (1973) and promptly discarded. The German instructors found that relearning the topic made their larger task much easier. Now I'm told that basic English grammar is the first topic in all DLI basic language courses. ... I'm not learning English grammar as a *FORMAL* matter but having to learn a second language requires you to understand what the hell the rules are of the language you're speaking, so you wind up having to learn things about English you kind of knew, in a way?, but didn't understand why you knew them? I don't know if I could sit through a formal eduction in english grammar, though, as opposed to doing it the way I'm doing it (which is consists of learning french grammar, which then compels me to think "How do we do this in English?," thus resulting in, in a backwards kind of way, learning the English rules). What is DLI by the way? Defense Learning Institute?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 01:40 PM (/FnUH)

469 Thanks for the reply. I did read your piece and I did bother though as I've written above I'm sick and wouldn't want to have to take a pop-quiz. Please be gentle. Obviously these kids HAVE learned some basic addition such as 7+3 = 10 and 10+4=14 so I don't see the evidence that step has been skipped. I interpret this as an effort to head off the inevitable debates about why anyone should ever have to use algebra by teaching the basics of algebra during a phase when kids are more open to instruction and less, you know, whatever, man.

Posted by: major major major major at January 21, 2014 01:40 PM (X9vO1)

470 When the mid-first grader was reading Mark Twain, the teacher insisted he put it down and color the word that rhymes with cat. At the meeting, the one that was called after my on-the-spot hissy fit, the Acad Gifted teacher informed me that, tho he tested at near genius level, Son would not be allowed to move up, nor would accomodations be made for him. He would just have to wait out his time until 3rd grade to receive AG classes. 'Why?' I asked. Teacher -"because (to do otherwise) it would be not fair to the other students." He did not go back after the 'winter break', learned math in the grocery store, spent hours at the used book store and started college at 13. We still regret not suing the school...

Posted by: middleagedhousewife at January 21, 2014 01:42 PM (af5Zq)

471 I add numbers like this in my head, not necessarily 7 + 7, because duh. But say, 37 + 7, I might quickly do a calculation like +3= 40, add 4= 44.

Re phonics, I can remember telling an education grad friend of mine in college that I learned to read using phonics. It was like telling her that I had a third tit. She got this disgusted look on her face. Then seeing the moronic way my nephew was being taught to read, I had the same expression. Oh and his teacher wouldn't correct errors because that would hurt the kid's widdle feewings. And this is why you can't walk down a city street without bad grammar blaring out at you from shop windows and billboards.

Posted by: evergreen at January 21, 2014 01:45 PM (5Oqsx)

472 One thing I believe strongly is this: We learn best by learning opposites. It is hard to explain what Capitalism is unless you explain Socialism in the same breath. When you don't know what Socialism is, you just think Capitalism is like.. well isn't that what everyone does? Of course I own my own stuff. I think language is a similar thing. Grammar rules seem dumb because people are like "A-duh, how else would you do it?" (At least if you have a basic intuitive understanding of English grammar.) Like: If someone tells you English is Subject-Verb-Object, you're like, "No duh." You only appreciate what that means when you start learning that some languages are SOV (most languages, in fact!) and some, like the romance languages, are SVO when the object is named but SOV when the object is a pronoun. Some languages are even VSO, or even... OSV. Why the latter, I have no idea. Anyway, grammar becomes slightly more interesting than it usually is (which is to say, "Not interesting at all") when you are presented with a *contrasting case* in which a different rule is followed, you know?

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 01:46 PM (/FnUH)

473 He did not go back after the 'winter break', learned math in the grocery store, spent hours at the used book store and started college at 13. We still regret not suing the school...

Bless you. I wish you had been my mom. I definitely could have started taking college classes early if I hadn't been condemned to institutional daycare for the first 18 years of my life.

Posted by: evergreen at January 21, 2014 01:48 PM (5Oqsx)

474 >>>When the mid-first grader was reading Mark Twain, the teacher insisted he put it down and color the word that rhymes with cat. At the meeting, the one that was called after my on-the-spot hissy fit, the Acad Gifted teacher informed me that, tho he tested at near genius level, Son would not be allowed to move up, nor would accomodations be made for him. He would just have to wait out his time until 3rd grade to receive AG classes. 'Why?' I asked. Teacher -"because (to do otherwise) it would be not fair to the other students." He did not go back after the 'winter break', learned math in the grocery store, spent hours at the used book store and started college at 13. We still regret not suing the school... ... I can see that.

Posted by: Harrison Bergeron at January 21, 2014 01:52 PM (/FnUH)

475 "Anyway, grammar becomes slightly more interesting than it usually is (which is to say, "Not interesting at all") when you are presented with a *contrasting case* in which a different rule is followed, you know? " Agreed. It also demonstrates how arbitrary grammar is. If I use "whom" correctly there's a large percentage of the population who will think "dick" and a very small percentage of the population who will think "by George I must introduce this fellow to my home-boy T. Coddington Van Voorhees VII!" which is to say simply that grammar serves two purposes: 1) clear communication and 2) social status. In other words I've always thought of grammar in part as a secret code that allows adults to size up each other quickly. There's a ton of grammar that people got's to no in order 2 communicate and then there's all that extra stuff. Not that the extra stuff is any less important.

Posted by: major major major major at January 21, 2014 01:55 PM (X9vO1)

476 Education Ph.D.'s and rapacious consulting industries continually try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to teaching, and failing schools are desperate to jump on the latest bandwagons to stay open. Lately everything seems to be I.B. (Int. Baccalaureate, a post-national ed. foundation in Sweden) or STEM. Teachers are evaluated partly on lesson plans, which must incorporate the latest new and shiny methods and classroom technology. Grammar parsing and rote memorization aren't going to cut it, everything has to seem relevant to the student here and now.

Nothing beats Latin for mottos. Highly inflected languages are tough to learn, but precise and elegant. As far as working out meanings of unfamiliar words, I remember being taught prefixes and suffixes, and looking at etymologies when learning vocabulary.

Posted by: venus velvet at January 21, 2014 01:56 PM (g94P/)

477 32 Gee math was a lot easier when I was growing up. Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 21, 2014 03:27 PM (nzKvP) There were a lot fewer numbers then.

Posted by: Weirddave at January 21, 2014 02:06 PM (N/cFh)

478 Anybody remember being taught ITA (Initial Teaching Alphabet)? We learned to read in the first grade using this semi-phonetic alphabet that used conjoined consonants and diphthongs, and it really did help me see patterns and connections. Looking at it now in Wikipedia, it resembles something you'd see in the appendices at the end of Lord of the Rings. Posted by: All Hail Eris at January 21, 2014 03:45 PM (QBm1P) Bring back Ã¾e letter "Ãž"

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 02:16 PM (XvHmy)

479 >>>Nothing beats Latin for mottos. Highly inflected languages are tough to learn, but precise and elegant. As far as working out meanings of unfamiliar words, I remember being taught prefixes and suffixes, and looking at etymologies when learning vocabulary. i would rebut your conclusion by offering some guy's observation. I forget who this was. He's not even some big scholar. Just a guy I read who was learning french. He said: "I think most languages are overdeterminative." He was referring to the often duplicative redundancies in a language to mark things like plurals, gender of nouns, person of the actor on the verb (that is, first person, 2nd person) by way of verb conjugations) and so on and so on. His point was this: Most languages are redundant and overdetermined in these ways, and don't need quite so much precision in specifying all these things. I know you appreciate Latin's precision. But a language has a purpose, and that is to communicate. There surely comes a point in which a multiplicity of rules, often redundant (to the extent they merely confirm what other parts of the sentence would tell you), impede communication rather than furthering it. I look at Latin's six cases of nouns, twenty four (or however many) tense/mood combinations of verb conjugation, and so on, and I think: What the hell. What the hell. The history of Latin is this: It became Vulgarized almost immediately. The French, for example, decided that their neighboring Germans' rule about putting the verb in the second position of the sentence made a great deal of sense, and freed them up from having to decline nouns in six cases (just for the ability to put any noun anywhere in the sentence). The french decided that ease of communication and speed of learning trumped Latin's virtue of having no set order to words. So that got cut from the Vulgar versions of Latin being spoken in French. Then you look at English's evolution, from Old English (which itself is proto-German) mixed with French. And English speakers realize, over the course of decades, "You know what? Do we really need to conjugate verbs differently for all persons? If I just say 'I' in the sentence I don't have to conjugate the verb for the first person. I know Latin ALLOWS me to skip sayng 'I,' but for God's sakes, how easy is it to just say 'I'? A child could do it." And thus English jettison's French's and German's verb conjugations, mostly. Noun cases? Why change "The" depending on whether we want to say "to the" or "from the" or "of the" or so on? Hey, let's stop with this der-den-dem-des crap and just say "the" and when we want to say "of the" we'll just say that, "of the." Noun genders? Who the fuck cares? Who came up with this rule? What is the Point of you, Grammatical Rules? Nouns don't have gender -- bing, bang, boom, another needless complication eliminated. Sorry but as I look at the Latinate languages, and Latin, and even German, I just appreciate the elegant, lightweight simplicity of the English language all the more. There is much less of a mental load required as far as the basic rules. As for those ambiguities that sometimes arise, because you don't have the ability to decline a noun into a specific case: You just write the sentence in such a way as to avoid that ambiguity. And if you hear someone say something ambiguous, you ask, "Did you mean the dog ran from the cat or the cat ran from the dog?" It's just not necessary in 95% of sentences to have such a minefield of redundant rules and specificities just to achieve a state of overdetermined precision.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:25 PM (/FnUH)

480 I bet you -- I haven't looked into this -- but I bet you that the "Latin" actually spoken by most of the population of Rome wasn't even Latin. I bet even during Roman days, they spoke a vulgar, simplified version of it (early italian vulgarizations). I bet the Latin people learn in the school today was a language created by the highly educated classes and spoken only among them (and, of course, carved into their buildings and statuary).

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:29 PM (/FnUH)

481 when I speak of the needless conjugations, I mean conjugations by person, not by tense and mood.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:35 PM (/FnUH)

482 if anyone is interested in this, look up "analytical language" on Wikipedia (English) versus "synthetic language" Latin. The former sort of language conveys relationships by just adding words (We say "I gave it to the sailor," "to" indicating direction towards) while a language like Latin will decline the noun for him to indicate direction towards. I don't know what that would be, as a word. But it would involve something like changing "Nautilo" into "Nautilae" to indicate "towards the sailor." Along those lines.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:37 PM (/FnUH)

483 [See Spot run. Run Spot run. Posted by: rickb223 at January 21, 2014 03:47 PM (CRyse)[/i] C:/DOS C:/DOS/RUN RUN/DOS/RUN

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 02:40 PM (XvHmy)

484 I looked this up over the weekend: Finnish has FIFTEEN declensions for nouns. FIFTEEN different cases. FIFTEEN charts of word endings you have to memorize to convey the ideas that English does by use of word order and prepositions like "of, by, from, towards," etc. English has a lot of special rules and exceptions that make it very hard for foreign learners to understand. But in terms of the BASICS, the very basics, English is dead simple in terms of crap like conjugations, declensions, and word order. Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 04:05 PM (/FnUH) The Indo-European languages were like that with many differeng noun and verb forms, multiple genders, and multiple cases - Old English had dual in addition to singular and plural. To a large degree, English is almost like a pidgin language in its simplicity. With various declanationes, &c. it didn't need specific word order or auxiliaries to make sense. With all that jettisoned, it make word order and auxiliary words that much more important. With simple English, you don't really have to know the rules. However, if you can to communicate something complex you need to understand the grammer much more than with a heavily declanized language, in order to make sense. Interestingly, computer programing and math can help organize that. Baring that, though, with the lack of proper grammer being taught, kids will be limited to simple thoughts. That's doubleplus good for the rabid leftÂ…

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 02:46 PM (XvHmy)

485 So American men still suck at tennis. No American made the final 16 for the men or the final 8 for the women. American men have sucked at tennis for a long time now. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 21, 2014 04:05 PM (ZPrif) I have a solution for thatÂ…

Posted by: A Blancmange at January 21, 2014 02:47 PM (XvHmy)

486 >>>The Indo-European languages were like that with many differeng noun and verb forms, multiple genders, and multiple cases - Old English had dual in addition to singular and plural. To a large degree, English is almost like a pidgin language in its simplicity. ... yes!!!! And I like that. The purpose of a language is to serve all people, not just the schoolmasters. If you read about pidgin languages-- well, it's actually very interesting, all very neat, how people just start making up a vulgarized, simplified hodgepodge language so they can communicate with (and trade with) foreigners. English is very pidgin in its borrowings.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:49 PM (/FnUH)

487 >>> >>>The Indo-European languages were like that with many differeng noun and verb forms, multiple genders, and multiple cases - Old English had dual in addition to singular and plural. it's very interesting to me that the last 2000 years of language has been towards LOWER complexity of linguistic rules. Surely there must have been a period of INCREASING complexity before that -- no one comes up with a language as complicatedly declined as, say, Ancient Greek, as a Cave Man. So there must have been millennia of increasing complexity in the original root languages which MUST, at some point, have been as simple as a pidgin.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:51 PM (/FnUH)

488 I bet the Latin people learn in the school today was a language created by the highly educated classes and spoken only among them (and, of course, carved into their buildings and statuary).

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 06:29 PM (/FnUH)

non timebo ace

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 02:51 PM (x3YFz)

489 timebo ergo sum

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 02:53 PM (/FnUH)

490 grammar serves two purposes: 1) clear communication and 2) social status. In other words I've always thought of grammar in part as a secret code that allows adults to size up each other quickly. There's a ton of grammar that people got's to no in order 2 communicate and then there's all that extra stuff. Not that the extra stuff is any less important.

Posted by: major major major major at January 21, 2014 05:55 PM (X9vO1)

If you read the letters sent to home by men during the Civil War, most of them having very little schooling, you'll find they read like doctoral dissertations compared to what tweenies write now.

It's a fundamental dissolution of thought.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 02:55 PM (x3YFz)

491 it's very interesting to me that the last 2000 years of language has been towards LOWER complexity of linguistic rules. Surely there must have been a period of INCREASING complexity before that -- no one comes up with a language as complicatedly declined as, say, Ancient Greek, as a Cave Man. So there must have been millennia of increasing complexity in the original root languages which MUST, at some point, have been as simple as a pidgin. Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 06:51 PM (/FnUH) There must have been some benefit to a language that didn't need auxiliaries. Perhaps compactness where fewer but more specialized/declinized words were better than a longer one where auxiliaries and word order were necessary. Proto-Indo-European probably derives from a semi-nomadic horse-based culture, so perhaps the compactness via declanation was more useful? It would be interesting to contrast that to other language families in how they evolved. I still say we should bring back the letter "Ãž"

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 02:58 PM (XvHmy)

492 " Rather than simply memorize the fact that seven plus seven equals fourteen" TSK. MODERN Educators should NEVER ask their students to memorize information. Why, EVERYONE knows that memorization is using the lowest form of intelligence. We want our children to evaluate and synthesize, not memorize. Of course if they CAN'T keep information in their brains for more than 30 seconds, how could they synthesize? .. oops that's a tinsy little problem, but no matter. We'll give open-book tests or hand out the questions in advance. (no joke) So, No memorization requirements, naughty, naughty, or your administration will send nasty emails about your outdated teaching methods. Yet, if you visit the schools that held on to their good reputations, there you will find their hidden secret: memory training is still part of the process.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at January 21, 2014 03:00 PM (acQMa)

493 You've got it all wrong, ace. Consider th following example: Multiply 190*176 without a calculator or pen and paper. One approach would be to reason that 190 is 100 + (100-10) and 176 is 25*7+1. Now you have 700 + 700 - 70 = 1330. Multiply by 25 is 13300 + 13300 + 6650 = 33250. Adding in the 1 factor of 190 now gives you 33440. It's funny you bring up phonics vs whole word. The example shown can be thought of as analogous to "phonics" for arithmetic, i.e. breaking up an expression. It is you, who advocates whole word in this case "just memorize 7 + 7!!!" The less memorization in math the better. That goes for any logical system for that matter. The first step is to reduce everything to easily understood primaries. Once you have those memorized you work on getting faster and/or more sophisticated. THAT is how math should be taught. Not taking anything for granted. Knowing only what you know and moving on from there. 7 + 7 = 14 precisely BECAUSE 7 + 3 + 4 = 14. Any attempt to short circuit the law of identity does children a great disservice.

Posted by: Cuhhhsin at January 21, 2014 03:02 PM (Awpp8)

494 since there was no mention above,... emotion plays a big role in learning stuff. We know this from neurology that the brain has mechanisms to facilitate learning during periods of stress, fear, etc. Teaching, requires not just drilling, but (a) making connections so the newly formed piece of information has a structure to give it context, (b) emotion so the brain is making memories, and (c) drilling to make it reflexive. I think to get all that, you need a lot of things the unions would never allow.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at January 21, 2014 03:02 PM (LWu6U)

495 Thank you, Ace. Spot on and well said. From a reader, teacher of kids large and small, parent, speaker of multiple languages, and person who likes math.

Posted by: Emily at January 21, 2014 03:02 PM (7Rn+/)

496 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin interesting stuff about the vulgarization of Latin into modern romance languages.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:03 PM (/FnUH)

497 I am learning Japanese, so i can relate to a lot of what Ace is saying, but the one thing that kills me is that i have no context for a lot of new words so i forget them immediately. I liken it to building a building, where each new beam has to connect to one that is already solid. If you try to reach too high, learning facts that have no connection to existing, known facts, then it is a challenge. Drilling makes the existing knowledge more solid and easier to connect to. If you know reflexively that 4+3=7, then the shortcut happens as soon as you look at the "7" on the page. Like a building, each level has to be built up and made strong so it can support the next level and reach higher and higher. Does this make sense to anyone besides me? it is hard to explain in a comment post.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at January 21, 2014 03:11 PM (LWu6U)

498
The less memorization in math the better. That goes for any logical system for that matter. The first step is to reduce everything to easily understood primaries. Once you have those memorized you work on getting faster and/or more sophisticated.

THAT is how math should be taught.

Posted by: Cuhhhsin at January 21, 2014 07:02 PM (Awpp

You get an "A"

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 03:14 PM (x3YFz)

499 489 timebo ergo sum

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 06:53 PM (/FnUH)

hah.. it's like dueling latin banjos... except not.

Posted by: tangonine at January 21, 2014 03:18 PM (x3YFz)

500 I had an "800" in math on my SAT in the early 1970s. Does that give me the creds to say that today's "Highly Trained Educators" are flaming assholes?

Posted by: Anon at January 21, 2014 03:25 PM (uu/tf)

501 High school students as young as 14 can develop the ability to use analysis and although in smaller numbers, synthesis. Not unless they learn to memorize first, however. Much to my initial surprise, students found memorization was often more difficult to master than analysis. Far too many had little to no experience with memorization during their elementary- middle school years. It is a skill that is best learned very young, and becomes more challenging if students don't encounter it until high school or in some cases, college. Without it, analysis cannot happen, but once gained, they climb the ladder; often within months to synthesis. Why, so many powers within the academic field don't recognize its value, and actively work to eliminate the training has bewildered me for years. This is the same group that claimed "research" was not "real world writing"(something they would use in real life), but writing a poem or a play qualified. Personally, I love writing poetry, but how can anyone not recognize that research offers far more career applications for the most students? Then there is the don't teach list of history topics". Oh dear, I feel a rant coming on.. and its a snow day. The insanity keeps rolling forward, and I fear my small drop of water is lost in its ocean of madness.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at January 21, 2014 03:26 PM (acQMa)

502 the more you study language and grammar the more things you never, ever heard of pop up. Anyone ever hear of the "Frequentive" form of words, indicating repeated or intense action? English actually had rules for this -- add an -le or an -er to the word you want to make "frequentive." Thus, "batter" means "repeatedly bat." "Dazzle" was formed from daze -- "repeatedly (or intensely) daze." pat --> Patter swathe --> swaddle wrest (seize) --> wrestle fascinating.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:28 PM (/FnUH)

503 sorry here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequentative the frequentive form is no longer "productive," which I guess means you can't just do this to words anymore. The words listed above became independently widespread and thus became their own words, and hence, they now survive in modern english. But in older forms of english, you could do this, I guess, with any word you wished to make in a frequentive. blog --> bloggle

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:29 PM (/FnUH)

504 hah! pool --> puddle I guess originally "poodle!!!"

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:32 PM (/FnUH)

505 making them up now: stabbing --> stabbering

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:32 PM (/FnUH)

506 wow. You know where slither comes from? It's the frequentive of "slide." slide --> slither am I crazy or is this awesome? I think I need to make a post about this.

Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 03:34 PM (/FnUH)

507 Consider th following example: Multiply 190*176 without a calculator or pen and paper. One approach would be to reason that 190 is 100 + (100-10) and 176 is 25*7+1. Now you have 700 + 700 - 70 = 1330. Multiply by 25 is 13300 + 13300 + 6650 = 33250. Adding in the 1 factor of 190 now gives you 33440. I am familiar with a lot of advanced mathematics and what you wrote doesn't make sense at first glance. I can do it in my head, and do it far more efficiently. These are shortcuts that don't actually impute the basic meaning of multiplication. And that is the problem. Students are shown stuff like this without being taught what it means and are forced to parse out advanced algebra You are using a combination of rounding and algebra. It is simpler just to do it by rounding and adjusting afterwards. 200*176 is just doubling 176 to 352 by doubling the 17 to 34 (170 to 340) and then doubling 6 to 12 and adding that in. This gives you 35300 after moving the decimal places. Set aside 33200 to leave 2000, from which you subtract 1760 (which is 176 * 10 which is determined by moving a decimal place, and then mentally subtracting 1760 from 2000, thereafter adding that 240 to the 33200 that was set aside to give you 33440. That might seem longwinded, but it is easy to juggle the numbers in one's head that way. Alternatly, round 176 up to 200 and multiply by 190 to get 38000, then subtract 24*200 (which is 4800) which then taken from 38000 is 33200, thereafter adding 24*10 to give 33440.

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 03:34 PM (XvHmy)

508 am I crazy or is this awesome? I think I need to make a post about this. Posted by: ace at January 21, 2014 07:34 PM (/FnUH) Do it. The more you learn about grammer, the more interesting it gets, and the more you can do with it.

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 03:37 PM (XvHmy)

509 507 ThatÂ’s exactly the point. There are many different ways to arrive at the answer. IÂ’m not saying mine was the best. I was just trying to demonstrate the algorithm at play. Clearly no one is trying to memorize the product of two 3-digit numbers. ThereÂ’s no need to memorize 7 + 7, either. Understanding the concepts of addition, multiplication, and laws of identity and distributive property, etc. is whatÂ’s important. ThatÂ’s why I have no problem with the methodology demonstrated. Eventually something as simple as 7 + 7 will be committed to memory, but itÂ’s important to emphasize the concepts, the methods, and not the memorization.

Posted by: cuhhhsin at January 21, 2014 03:45 PM (Awpp8)

510 "Baring that, though, with the lack of proper grammer being taught, kids will be limited to simple thoughts. That's doubleplus good for the rabid leftÂ… Posted by: Ãže Political Hat at January 21, 2014 06:46 PM (XvHmy)" I had a discussion with a well-known history professor over the decline of reading and composition skills. He suggested that our written language is being replaced by a complex visual language. There is a grain of truth in his observation. People communicate and gain ideas through media such as youtube and video images. Many students cannot focus without a smartboard, computer graphics and other visual stimulus. The percentage of students who learn through reading alone is reduced to an elite few. Food for thought.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at January 21, 2014 03:48 PM (acQMa)

511 ThatÂ’s exactly the point. There are many different ways to arrive at the answer. IÂ’m not saying mine was the best. I was just trying to demonstrate the algorithm at play. Posted by: cuhhhsin at January 21, 2014 07:45 PM (Awpp You still have to know how to multiply two numbers before you use shortcuts/Algebra that also use multiplication.

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 04:16 PM (XvHmy)

512 I had a discussion with a well-known history professor over the decline of reading and composition skills. He suggested that our written language is being replaced by a complex visual language. There is a grain of truth in his observation. People communicate and gain ideas through media such as youtube and video images. Many students cannot focus without a smartboard, computer graphics and other visual stimulus. The percentage of students who learn through reading alone is reduced to an elite few. Food for thought. Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at January 21, 2014 07:48 PM (acQMa) There is a difference between being a visual learner and needing visual bobbles to keep your attention.

Posted by: Þe Political Hat at January 21, 2014 04:17 PM (XvHmy)

513 Actually, I've never heard of anyone teaching pronoun placement. Many native speakers of English never have any trouble with it. However, if this is something that kids or non-native speakers ever have problems with, of course drill and memorization is the way to go.

Posted by: Suburbanbanshee at January 21, 2014 04:19 PM (cvXSV)

514 "With simple English, you don't really have to know the rules. However, if you can to communicate something complex you need to understand the grammer much more than with a heavily declanized language, in order to make sense. "

I think it's easy to take for granted the complexity of English when you grow up with it. There are twelve tenses, a ton of irregular nouns and verbs, and exceptions for every rule/guideline that have to be memorized. It's why we're probably the worst culture at spelling its native language. Throwing out declensions may have seemed like a shortcut, but prepositions are a whole other world of memorization, esp for non-native speakers. I've always wondered how Latin was used and spoken, and whether all that structure was internalized or corrupted. Easy to admire a dead language in theory.

So glad our nouns don't have genders. My mother's language didn't even have gendered pronouns, and she used to use "he" and "she" interchangeably.

Re frequentives, I think it's one of the strengths of English, how it lends itself to new words (does that derive from German?). That and its omnivorous appetite for stealing other languages' words. We don't have an academy to maintain purity like the French.

Posted by: venus velvet at January 21, 2014 04:37 PM (g94P/)

515 "High school students as young as 14 can develop the ability to use analysis and although in smaller numbers, synthesis. Not unless they learn to memorize first, however. Much to my initial surprise, students found memorization was often more difficult to master than analysis."

Agree, you need building blocks to start with, but synthesize, analyze and evaluate sounds so much sexier to administrators. Memorization is looked down on as old school, and students have lost the patience to spend time committing facts and passages to long term memory, when everything can be consulted on their phones momentarily.

Posted by: venus velvet at January 21, 2014 04:43 PM (g94P/)

516 I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Electric Company was fantastic at presenting phonics in an entertaining, unobtrusive way. If you have kids and can spring for DVD's of the show, you could probably do a lot worse.

Posted by: Frank Underwood (D-SC) at January 21, 2014 04:54 PM (OpaBw)

517 "512 I had a discussion with a well-known history professor over the decline of reading and composition skills. He suggested that our written language is being replaced by a complex visual language."

As someone who's taught art and English, I go back and forth on the importance of verbal v. non-verbal thinking. Being able to put thoughts in words makes them more understandable and accessible. Visual language operates on a more subliminal level, and becomes intuitive knowledge. I think the mind grasps visual information much more quickly, while verbal reasoning processes that into conscious thought.

Posted by: venus velvet at January 21, 2014 04:59 PM (g94P/)

518 Ace, thank you SO much for this. It hits the nail on the head precisely with jackhammer force. My wife & I are both teachers of 25+ years. She went through the whole word period and taught phonics under the radar to her students. Now she is having this absurd math curriculum shoved down her throat.

Posted by: t-bone at January 21, 2014 05:06 PM (5P7QL)

519 It is an asinine problem developed by the cargo-cult witch doctors.

"Skip-Count" Where did that term come from? I call it "counting".
For example, counting by ones, counting by twos,... counting by fives,.. counting by tens...

Either you solve the ridiculously simple problem of counting by sevens for the first two iterations or you are "adding", which is what the witch doctors are actually asking.

"Number bonds" I am guessing someone in the cargo cult remembered something from grade school chemistry... most would just ask that the two numbers be added by 'borrowing' one, two, or three (or four) from either number as a technique to skip the long addition of adding by columns.

Cargo Cult fits the situation well, 'educators' aping something they saw someone who actually knew what they were doing (being merely good at math).

Posted by: Burnt Toast at January 21, 2014 05:36 PM (80R0X)

520 t-bone - does your wife grok what the witch doctors are trying to do? I go to every parent teacher conference and cannot gt from a teacher that the really know what this is about.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at January 21, 2014 05:37 PM (80R0X)

521 Well, sure, maybe that's kind of a hard way to add 7and 7. But consider the case of 842 + 679.

If the child "happens" to remember that 679 is nothing more than 158 "number bonded" with 521, look how easy it gets: 842 + 158 = 1000 so then all she has to do is add the 521 to get 1521.

None of that "nine plus two is one, carry the one" nonsense...

Damn, I wish I knew about this when I was in school.

But one question: Why is it easy to remember that 3 + 4 is 7 and 7 + 3 is 10, but so overwhelmingly difficult to remember that 7 + 7 is 14?

Posted by: pjf at January 21, 2014 06:01 PM (e4wW9)

522 509 507 ThereÂ’s no need to memorize 7 + 7, either. Understanding the concepts of addition, multiplication, and laws of identity and distributive property, etc. is whatÂ’s important. Eventually something as simple as 7 + 7 will be committed to memory, but itÂ’s important to emphasize the concepts, the methods, and not the memorization. 509: Completely disagree. Older child taught your way. Younger daughter was old schooled: memorized her doubles in sk, 12 times tables by Dec of grade 1, long division by the end of the year. For older daughter, math is a maze of concepts and a struggle. Younger daughter worked out the short cuts on her own and solves things in her head.

Posted by: Elle- ementary at January 21, 2014 06:08 PM (AVmRg)

523 "Visual language operates on a more subliminal level, and becomes intuitive knowledge. I think the mind grasps visual information much more quickly, while verbal reasoning processes that into conscious thought." venus velvet at January 21, 2014 08:59 PM (g94P/) You've pointed out a potential problem which could also become a solution if a good balance is maintained. Visual information appears to take less effort and time to grasp which appeals to students. Whether they grasp everything they visually process could be debated. Without the verbal and reasoning process as a foundation, visual information may end up distorted by factors such as subconscious interpretation. It is far too easy to manipulate understanding with visual information alone. There is a difference between being a visual learner and needing visual bobbles to keep your attention. Posted by: Ãže Political Hat at January 21, 2014 08:17 PM (XvHmy) Good point. Agreed.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at January 21, 2014 06:35 PM (acQMa)

524 I'm retired now, but when I was still teaching 8th-grade civics I had my students memorize most of the Bill of Rights. It was interesting how most of them grumbled at first, but once they'd worked for awhile they enjoyed the challenge. It was, unlike a lot of the learning they did, a simple (but still-difficult) challenge. Once they figured out the simple correlation between time spent and progress, their achievement took off.
Some parents grumbled to the principal and I got called into her office. She saw little value in my expectation. I told her--in so many words--to pound sand.
Now here's the important part: Later, when we studied landmark cases, I noticed the value of our earlier efforts. In those years after I'd really set the memorization standards high, I heard much more intelligent discussions in class. It was not unusual to hear concepts like "free exercise" or "due process" coming out of the mouths of kids who had never shown me much previously.

Posted by: Jim Flimsey at January 21, 2014 07:10 PM (T9V22)

525 I once had a college professor who required us to memorize the first 42 lines of the prologue to the Canterbury Tales, in the original middle English. After that, something clicked, and the language made sense to read.

Posted by: venus velvet at January 21, 2014 07:25 PM (g94P/)

526 Ace, thank you for this post & your insights. When kids are taught the building blocks for reading, writing, and math, there is no end to what they can creatively do on their own. But whole language, new math, and lack of grammar cripples our kids, inhibits their ability to communicate, and is death for kids with learning disabilities.

Posted by: lurky lu at January 21, 2014 07:50 PM (DjLh9)

527 not a defender of CC but you learn basic arithmetic in first grade. I highly doubt this is a first grade question. so more than likely its like a simple equation to introduce the concept. there is nothing in the post that says this is the way they are teaching 7+7. more than likely its the way they begin the concept of basic factorization.

Posted by: LJ at January 21, 2014 08:07 PM (FwCIn)

528 I've got some tips for folks learning French. They can also be adapted to several other languages. Speaking - Practice the alphabet. Watch the shape of a native speaker's mouth. They move their lips a lot, but mostly keep the corners of the mouth turned down almost into a frown. Spelling/Reading - French has fewer exceptions than English. Although the spelling may seem crazy at first, as a rule each sound is always spelled the same, and each spelling is always pronounced the same. Grammar - I think of French grammar as closely matching Shakespear. In a pinch I'll ask myself "What Would Shakespear Say?" and translate that. Not 100% but the listener will usually understand.

Posted by: Onus at January 22, 2014 04:14 AM (vrT+8)

529 The goal of Common Core, or any other Leftist educstion scheme, is not to improve learning or test scores. Questions like this are purposely designed to make sure more white and asian kids get it wrong, thus lowering test score disparity between top and bottom performers.

Posted by: thirdtwin at January 22, 2014 04:37 AM (wdDtJ)

530 I remember my brother learned to read when he was still in diapers. He was 10, so not really all that impressive..

Posted by: docweasel at January 22, 2014 06:26 AM (gW7Y2)

531 I'm not a native speaker of English. But how did it reach a skill level where I can read Ace and the comments? Where I scoff at dubbed US and UK TV shows and movies and rather have the original audio because "the dubs suck"?

I got my basics in school. Third year elementary school is when the English lessons start in my country. In the required 8 years of schooling you get a very basic outline. If you're like me and add another 12, you get some more out of it. Either way, you get the basics. You get the basics by drilling vocabulary, by writing annoying sentences, by practicing the -ings, etc. We got reading assignments and did synopsis of what we read. I love reading, I was the kid with the big glasses who always buried his nose in books, but I usually hated those because we had to read books I wasn't really interested in. But I did it anyway. Because I had to (our teachers then had actual authority and were respected by us kids).

This year it's 20 years since I passed what in the UK are the A levels. I had no English lessons since then.

What happened?

I took those basics and used them. Now I'm effectively fluent in English.

You can't run if you don't know how to walk.

Posted by: Edohiguma at January 22, 2014 10:45 AM (bJxFc)

532 531

I meant to say "adding another 4", mounting up to 12 years of school. Damn you brain. Sometimes my brain is too fast for my fingers.

Posted by: Edohiguma at January 22, 2014 10:47 AM (bJxFc)

533 A couple of ideas on language learning, etc. Immersion is good, but not always practical. Internet is great for having access to a lot of foreign language stuff. Don't know if this holds for French, but Langenscheidt has a book & workbook that is a trainer for the first 1000 words in German (with the thought that those words are going to be over half of what one encounters in a language normally). Find a few books - originally written in the language you want to improve - aimed at 9-12 year olds because the books are usually centered around a story, not someone's writing style, etc. The first one I tackled in German (at age 20) was quite a doozy, but once I finished it, all of a sudden my German comprehension was a *lot* better. Also if you can find materials about subjects you already know something about, it's quite helpful, because a lot of times, something will "click" with familiarity. I've heard a lot of good things about Middlebury College's summer language program (and I know people of all ages go to those) but it is expensive, and you're cut off for the entire length of the program. (Concordia has something too, but I don't know much about how they do things.) Beginning to speak is always tough, but it's interesting to see how "natives" react. I find that Germans are not really used to people learning German, and more times than not will try to switch to English to help. In Russia, I found that as soon as one starts trying to speak Russian, no matter how broken, people become *much* more accommodating. Same thing for the time I was in France - for the most part, it didn't matter how badly I butchered the language, the fact that I wasn't forcing someone to switch to English went a long way. (I think this is generally the case in the US - as long as you're trying to speak English, people will go out of their way to try to understand what you are saying.)

Posted by: Katja at January 22, 2014 07:50 PM (LmCTZ)

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