Ace of Spades HQ

January 23, 2014

Government Privacy Board: NSA Metadata Collection Is Unsupported By PATRIOT Act And Is Illegal
— DrewM

Apparently there's something called the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. It was created on the recommendation of the 9/11 panel and doesn't seem to have done much until now.

The board voted 3-2 to back the conclusions that the bulk collection of phone records is illegal and should end. But all five board members called for a series of immediate changes, such as requiring court approval for searches, reducing how long the NSA holds the data and limiting the degrees of separation analysts can stray from their initial target from three to two. Obama backed similar reforms in his speech last Friday.
The board's recommendations go farther than the advisory group President Obama created last year to review the NSA's program. But that review group also called for major changes to the bulk data collection and concluded the program has not thwarted any terror attacks.
The NSA claims that bulk collection is authorized under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, which gives the government the power to collect business records that are "relevant" to a terrorism investigation. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has approved the NSA's argument, saying all U.S. phone calls are "relevant" because the agency needs the full database to map potential terrorist connections.
But the privacy board called the government's justification "circular" and "untenable."

The board's reasoning seems to track with an argument I made last summer that there are very specific categories of people that Section 215 of The PATRIOT Act allow data to be collected on. To expand that limited grant of power to an all encompassing grant to collect whatever the government wants on everyone effectively moots any concept that there is a difference between someone the government suspects is involved in a terrorist plot and everyone within in the United States.

The argument that the plans supporters make that the NSA needs to have all this data to quickly run an analysis or to spot people they didn't know they were looking for are almost certainly correct. But if they want that power, they need to go to Congress and get it. Then our elected representatives can have a debate and be held to account for their decision. To simply rely on secret judicial decisions to distort the plain meaning of the statute because it's more convenient for the executive branch is the exact opposite of how separation of powers and checks and balances are supposed to work.

This board doesn't seem to have enforcement powers but Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act is up for renewal next year. It's certainly going to be another piece of ammunition for those of us who believe in strict adherence to the law and stronger oversight of domestic intelligence programs.

Posted by: DrewM at 07:47 AM | Comments (187)
Post contains 483 words, total size 3 kb.

1 Planet Hillary is planet Kaboom.

Posted by: eleven at January 23, 2014 07:50 AM (KXm42)

2 Big government.

Posted by: NCKate at January 23, 2014 07:50 AM (x6fKj)

3 Filed under "Duh!"

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 07:51 AM (xZxMD)

4 But if they want that power, they need to go to Congress and get it.

I have a phone and a pen.

Posted by: Barry SCOAMF at January 23, 2014 07:51 AM (ZKzrr)

5 The law is what I say it is.

Posted by: So Spoketh Emperor Baracka I at January 23, 2014 07:52 AM (Aif/5)

6 The argument that the plans supporters make that the NSA needs to have all this data to quickly run an analysis or to spot people they didn't know they were looking for are almost certainly correct. Helps to have an actual winning track record.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 07:53 AM (xZxMD)

The Government Privacy Board has some really good paper, and their printer is awesome fast! Even prints in color.

Strongly worded letters will be sent. Oh yes they will.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 23, 2014 07:53 AM (TOk1P)

8 But if they want that power, they need to go to Congress and get it. Then our elected representatives can have a debate and be held to account for their decision. To simply rely on secret judicial powers to distort the plan meaning of the statute because it's more convenient for the executive branch is the exact opposite of how separation of powers and checks and balances are supposed to work. This. Again, I don't trust the NSA with this power because I wouldn't trust me with this power. Human beings are human beings and if they can abuse their power, they will. Also get the hell rid of the FISA court. We are already way past the star chamber aspect of justice in pretty much all areas of the law. There is no reason why the traditional means of having records and dockets sealed cannot be followed. As always, I speak only to domestic surveillance. The only thing I'm angry about with foreign surveillance is that I know about it.

Posted by: alexthechick - Skittle fueled Godzillette at January 23, 2014 07:53 AM (VtjlW)

9 Something else for Obama to ignore.

Posted by: Dang at January 23, 2014 07:54 AM (MNq6o)

10 Oh goodie, a strongly worded letter, we all know how effective those are.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at January 23, 2014 07:54 AM (7mQyC)

11 That worked so well in the Boston Marathon bombing, we should continue to spend gazillions of tax dollars to not catch known terrorists we were already warned about.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 23, 2014 07:54 AM (0HooB)

12 Given the amount of data people voluntarily put out about themselves on social media sites, half the American populace is doing the work for law enforcement now anyway. It cracks me up when I come across friends who years ago were up in arms when the grocery store reward programs started about how the grocery stores didn't need all that information about them and they wouldn't be signing up. Now, they happily give that self same information to any ya-hoo on the internet who throws up a survey, or a sweepstakes, or a special coupon offer.

Posted by: Paranoidgirlinseattle at January 23, 2014 07:54 AM (RZ8pf)

13 Federalist Society has a brilliant piece on this, I believe it was linked here a while back.

Posted by: prescient11 at January 23, 2014 07:54 AM (tVTLU)

14 Bulk collection predates the Patriot Act. As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. None of the information held by a telephone company is your private information. The telephone companies are free to cooperate with the government by providing their information about you, just as they publish their information about you.

Posted by: Federale (@Federale86) at January 23, 2014 07:55 AM (NAlbk)

15 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 07:56 AM (PYAXX)

16 It's certainly going to be another piece of ammunition for those of us who believe in strict adherence to the law and stronger oversight of domestic intelligence programs. If only we had an opposition party which agreed with those things.

Posted by: rickl at January 23, 2014 07:57 AM (zoehZ)

17 I wish I could remember the Congresscritter who held up his phone to some intel dude during testimony a few months back and asked, "Where is the probable cause to tap my phone?" IIRC, he never got a straight answer.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 23, 2014 07:57 AM (0HooB)

18 Metadata seems like a great after-the-fact investigation tool. The FISA court also says NSA has tipped the FBI three times a day, on average, for years but it doesn't say this metadata is the source of those tips. So has it helped stop terrorists before they act, or has it not? I know the legal argument is a different one, but I'd like defenders of the practice to at least openly make an argument this has helped stop terror.

Posted by: MTF at January 23, 2014 07:58 AM (F58x4)

19 Interesting 3-2 vote. The Dem appointees voted for the tighter restrictions, the Bush appointees were against tighter restrictions.

Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 07:58 AM (JBggj)

20 This issue can only be resolved by another secret trial.

Posted by: Stalin at January 23, 2014 07:59 AM (JQuNB)

21 Posted by: Federale (@Federale86) at January 23, 2014 11:55 AM (NAlbk) But would companies participate without the threat of law? That's the question. I suspect there's a market for companies that say "No, I won't participate."

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 07:59 AM (GaqMa)

22 "Obama backed similar reforms in his speech last Friday." = "TFG/DNC now have all the info they need to begin the 'Ayers Purge.'"

Posted by: Country Singer at January 23, 2014 07:59 AM (L8r/r)

23 Bulk collection predates the Patriot Act. As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. None of the information held by a telephone company is your private information. The telephone companies are free to cooperate with the government by providing their information about you, just as they publish their information about you. Posted by: Federale (@Federale86) at January 23, 2014 11:55 AM (NAlbk) The phone book sure as fuck does not have my listing in it because I pay to have an unpublished phone number. By your logic, the NSA thus is utterly prohibited from getting any information on me. Also the phone book does not provide real time tracking as to my locations. Also the phone book does not list the people whom I have called or who have called me. Also the phone book does not provide the text of my texts. Also the phone book does not provide a listing of all the internet sites I have visited. Also the phone book does not publish my daily calendar. Also the phone book does not link to my bank account. Also the phone book does not link to my credit cards. Shall I continue?

Posted by: alexthechick - Skittle fueled Godzillette at January 23, 2014 08:00 AM (VtjlW)

24 Bulk collection predates the Patriot Act. As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. None of the information held by a telephone company is your private information. The telephone companies are free to cooperate with the government by providing their information about you, just as they publish their information about you. "Now watch *this hand* while the other one totally doesn't take your wallet." First off, the phone company is a private agency- it is not the government. Second (and directly related) my association with the phone company is strictly voluntary. Third, phone numbers are no longer automatically listed in the phone book- you can request that your number not be listed. Fourth, my *phone number* is not my communications metadata. Now, as to that data being "the phone companies'." I know it is that technically, because some idiot said so. In a rational world it would not be- it would be mine, or, at least, it would be privileged information in the same way my medical records or conversations with my lawyer are- and for the same reasons. Finally, there is a vast difference between the data being held by the phone company- who "can cooperate with law enforcement" and the Federal Government simply grabbing whatever they want, whenever they want, absent a warrant (or even probable cause).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:00 AM (PYAXX)

25 of course section 215 will be renewed with votes from an unholy alliance of right wing hawks and left wing statists. what could go wrong?

Posted by: Vote Lord Humungus 2016 at January 23, 2014 08:00 AM (HEa5q)

26 I AM the law.

Posted by: Judge Barak O'Dredd at January 23, 2014 08:00 AM (YEelc)

27 IIRC didn't one of the main authors of the Patriot Act say that the act did not allow what the NSA claims it allowed?

Posted by: polynikes at January 23, 2014 08:01 AM (m2CN7)

28 Posted by: alexthechick - Skittle fueled Godzillette at January 23, 2014 12:00 PM (VtjlW) Solidarity.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:02 AM (PYAXX)

29 1 Planet Hillary is planet Kaboom.Posted by: eleven at January 23, 2014 11:50 AM (KXm42)
When Planet Hillary hits your eye like a big pizza pie that's just awful.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at January 23, 2014 08:02 AM (ZS1LI)

30 14 >> As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book.

Ahh, but you can pay a bribe to the phone company to obtain an unlisted number. Presto, no listing in the phone book nor can they give out your number through 411.

I wonder how much the bribe is to the NSA?

Posted by: GnuBreed at January 23, 2014 08:02 AM (wNF3N)

31 I wonder how this will change anything. It's not like Obama and company give a damn about laws.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:03 AM (DmNpO)

32 Bulk collection predates the Patriot Act. As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. My wireless carrier doesn't have a phone book. This goes far beyond just publishing your name and number. It's unconstitutional and is therefore illegal.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 23, 2014 08:03 AM (0HooB)

33 Anybody mentioned lately the JEF is still a JEF?

Posted by: backhoe at January 23, 2014 08:03 AM (ULH4o)

34 Most people will sell out their loved ones for some free minutes/access to some online shit they don't need. It's like crack cocaine to them.

Obamaphone!

Posted by: Fritz at January 23, 2014 08:03 AM (UzPAd)

35 Ahh, but you can pay a bribe to the phone company to obtain an unlisted number. Presto, no listing in the phone book nor can they give out your number through 411. For a large and growing number of people, they don't even have to pay the bribe- Cell Phones are not listed by default.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:03 AM (PYAXX)

36 That's right! The phone book is just like recording your phone calls and text messages.

Posted by: Emperor Baracka I at January 23, 2014 08:03 AM (Aif/5)

37 How many divisions does the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board have?

Posted by: Barrack O'Stalin at January 23, 2014 08:04 AM (JQuNB)

38 Posted by: backhoe at January 23, 2014 12:03 PM (ULH4o) I don't know, but I do make sure to mention that Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor on every thread, still.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:04 AM (PYAXX)

39 So, another arrow in the quiver of Rand's lawsuit.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:04 AM (DmNpO)

40 As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. None of the information held by a telephone company is your private information. Not familiar with the concept of an "unlisted number", are ya? Here's a hint: You can opt out of the phone book. The NSA's general warrants, not so much.

Posted by: Brother Cavil's Sharpened Stake and Rusty Garden Weasel Emporium at January 23, 2014 08:04 AM (naUcP)

41 Breathe alex!!

Posted by: NCKate at January 23, 2014 08:04 AM (x6fKj)

42 The phone book sure as fuck does not have my listing in it because I pay to have an unpublished phone number. Phone book doesn't have me because I don't have a land line.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:05 AM (xZxMD)

43 Federale, except I can buy an unlisted number. So my name, address, and phone number are then not public.

Posted by: sunny-dee at January 23, 2014 08:05 AM (EBoCD)

44 Shall I continue?

Posted by: alexthechick - Skittle fueled Godzillette at January 23, 2014 12:00 PM (VtjlW)

you may after i quit swooning....

and tea

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:05 AM (nqBYe)

45 AllenG? I'm glad you do mention that. He is a horrid little "man...."

Posted by: backhoe at January 23, 2014 08:06 AM (ULH4o)

46 Breathe alex!! Posted by: NCKate at January 23, 2014 12:04 PM (x6fKj) Yes! Breathe. Deeply. Deeper... deeper... Waitwaitwait. First put on your corset...

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:06 AM (PYAXX)

47
Its the NSA. What is this board gonna do? Who is going to go over to see if they comply. Pffffft.

Fascism.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 23, 2014 08:06 AM (n0DEs)

A group of NSA people walk into a bar and order a specialty beer.

The bartender says, " sorry guys, were are out of that . I will have to call our supplier to order some more. I will also have to call the owner to approve the reorder"

The NSA guys reply " okay, 555-281-4322 and 555-713-5656. Could you hurry please. "

Posted by: polynikes at January 23, 2014 08:07 AM (m2CN7)

49 Whoa... do you really think that shirt goes with those pants?

Posted by: TheNSA at January 23, 2014 08:07 AM (hHFOx)

14 -

That's nonsense. And you either know it's nonsense, and you think people won't call you on it, or you're a profoundly silly person.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 23, 2014 08:07 AM (TOk1P)

51 Breathe alex!! Posted by: NCKate at January 23, 2014 12:04 PM (x6fKj) Yes! Breathe. Deeply. Deeper... deeper... Waitwaitwait. First put on your corset... Faster. Faster. Faster.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:08 AM (xZxMD)

52 But King Zero gotta pen. King Zero gotta phone.

Posted by: maddogg at January 23, 2014 08:08 AM (xWW96)

53 free people searches and seizures.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:08 AM (nqBYe)

54 Also the phone book does not list the people whom I have called or who have called me.

Federale got a call from his doctor. Then half an hour later, he called his boyfriend. Then the boyfriend called a local organization that helps people with HIV, then a doctor who specializes in treating them.

Without listening to a single phone call, we've just learned a whole lot about Federale.

Posted by: HR at January 23, 2014 08:08 AM (ZKzrr)

55 It is absolutely untrue that we control the vertical and the horizontal. We only control the vertical. We don't give a shit about the horizontal.

Posted by: Your NSA at January 23, 2014 08:08 AM (JQuNB)

56 I find it truly amazing that, despite the plain language of the Constitution stating the requirements that must be met before any information can be gathered on you, this is happening at all. I see that oaths of office mean nothing any more.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 23, 2014 08:10 AM (0HooB)

57 Okay, everyone else already pointed out the unlisted thing (with kudos to AtC). AllenG, you make a good point. The government CANNOT get any information from a phone company without a warrant for a specific number. Because just because my phone records don't belong to me (whatever), it doesn't automatically mean that it belongs to the government. It is private data held by a private entity and there are theoretical rules about how any other entity can access that data. The government can't just show up to AT&T and say "give me everything you have." At least, in the old days....

Posted by: sunny-dee at January 23, 2014 08:10 AM (EBoCD)

58 Reference #19. Insty linked the WP take on the matter. The former Bush administration appointees (caveat WP) -apparently- were in favor of bulk collection if the program was modified to increase privacy protections. Rachel L. Brand and Elisebeth Collins Cook (according to the WP source) were pretty much in accord with their Dem colleagues on the other points.

Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 08:10 AM (JBggj)

59 while i would like to trust the NSA, believing in their desire to use their agency to thwart harm against America and its citizens
I have come to the conclusion after IRS EPA etc. etc ...Govt agencies and their employees are political and have been used Against the citizen.

so no.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:10 AM (nqBYe)

60 As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. None of the information held by a telephone company is your private information.

So my credit card information is also public information because it has something to do with a company? Can the post office also read all my mail? (As if I still sent letters to anyone.)

What an ignorant ass.

Posted by: Dang at January 23, 2014 08:11 AM (MNq6o)

61 @49 -- you made me laugh.

Posted by: sunny-dee at January 23, 2014 08:11 AM (EBoCD)

62 also my calling my spouse 2,300 miles away for years and breathing heavy for him wouldn't help nsa catch a terrorist.

just saying

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:12 AM (nqBYe)

63 Posted by: HR at January 23, 2014 12:08 PM (ZKzrr) And before anyone says "They don't get the names of the people you called!" Nothing actually prevents the NSA from using google (or any other public list of phone numbers).

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:12 AM (GaqMa)

64 also my calling my spouse 2,300 miles away for years and breathing heavy for him wouldn't help nsa catch a terrorist.

Helps with other things. Don't stop!

Posted by: NSA Agent assigned to willow at January 23, 2014 08:13 AM (ZKzrr)

65 also my calling my spouse 2,300 miles away for years and breathing heavy for him wouldn't help nsa catch a terrorist. Call me?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:13 AM (xZxMD)

66 This is almost as good as Issa holding a hearing. Almost.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 23, 2014 08:13 AM (AskuI)

67
Govt agencies are now looking inward from the border to find their enemies.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 23, 2014 08:13 AM (n0DEs)

68 also my calling my spouse 2,300 miles away for years and breathing heavy for him wouldn't help nsa catch a terrorist. just saying Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 12:12 PM (nqBYe) It helped them, how do I put this....refocus.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:14 AM (GaqMa)

Too damn bad I've got things to do...

Some impressing posts this morning.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at January 23, 2014 08:14 AM (BZAd3)

70 It is private data held by a private entity... ...that you pay for.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 23, 2014 08:14 AM (0HooB)

71 Subjugation. Just another service offered by the friendly folks in government.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2014 08:14 AM (A7zvX)

72 OT, but W in T ever-loving F is this crap?

http://tinyurl.com/l7m2xj5

They may as well wear meggings with that getup.

Posted by: Country Singer at January 23, 2014 08:15 AM (L8r/r)

73 Govt agencies are now looking inward from the border to find their enemies. TEA Party, returning Veterans, etc.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:15 AM (xZxMD)

74 can i ay again how heartbroken i am to have come to the conclusion some govt agencies are used maliciously against average joes and i no longer can trust their use of their tools 'for our great good u'

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:15 AM (nqBYe)

75 that post was awful, sorry.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:16 AM (nqBYe)

76 Well of course we can't track the websites you visit. Especially if you go "incognito."

Posted by: Your NSA at January 23, 2014 08:17 AM (JQuNB)

77 I refer to this handy guide when questions of this nature arise:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Posted by: GnuBreed at January 23, 2014 08:17 AM (wNF3N)

78 Willow, Trusting ANY government agency is UNAMERICAN.

Posted by: maddogg at January 23, 2014 08:17 AM (xWW96)

79 speaking of Planet Hillary (aka Uranus) you can now, just in time for Valentine's day, buy an "I [Heart] Hillary" long sleeve t-shirt.

Posted by: Mallfly at January 23, 2014 08:17 AM (bJm7W)

80 Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 12:15 PM (nqBYe) But you're wiser for it. It is not actually the Government's place to protect you from violence. It is the Government's place to punish those who use violence against you for unlawful purposes. Every time we've asked for more "security" in the past 100 years, we've lost more Liberty. And now we're finding- as some old guy once suggested- that we've really got neither.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:18 AM (PYAXX)

81 maddog, well I used to strangely believe we were all in this Together.

yeah naive, stupid, whatever other adjectives may be used appropriately.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:18 AM (nqBYe)

82 Bwahahahahah. Up to 1.1 million credit card accounts were vulnerable due to a malware breach at Needless Markup.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:18 AM (xZxMD)

83 Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at January 23, 2014 12:14 PM (0HooB) I'm OK with the private entities "owning" the information, I've seen myself as paying for access to their network, not necessarily for the data generated off it. However, the bar for government to wrest that information from them should be fairly high. Beyond that it's going to be up to the market to decide when a company too loosely gives up info freely.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:19 AM (GaqMa)

84 79 speaking of Planet Hillary (aka Uranus) you can now, just in time for Valentine's day, buy an "I [Heart] Hillary" long sleeve t-shirt.

Gag....

Posted by: backhoe at January 23, 2014 08:19 AM (ULH4o)

77 -

Where did you get that???

Some document, over 100 or something. Which of course says nothing about cell phones, duh.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 23, 2014 08:19 AM (TOk1P)

Posted by: GnuBreed at January 23, 2014 12:17 PM (wNF3N)

That 4th Amendment stuff is just a bunch of crap written by a bunch of old men over 230 years ago. What possible relevance could it have today?

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at January 23, 2014 08:19 AM (BZAd3)

87 Allen, something about giving up freedoms deserves none.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:20 AM (nqBYe)

88 75 that post was awful, sorry. ------- Your earlier one more thank makes up for it.

Posted by: Morons Everywhere at January 23, 2014 08:21 AM (Aif/5)

Posted by: GnuBreed at January 23, 2014 12:17 PM (wNF3N)

Waiting for Hollowpoint to chime in that the key to the 4th is the term 'unreasonable' .

Posted by: polynikes at January 23, 2014 08:22 AM (m2CN7)

90 That Hillary cover looks like a Marvel comic book character. The character? Ego The Living Planet. Appropriate, no?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 08:23 AM (/Crba)

91 With Obamacare in place, we have entered the Golden Age of Metadata Collection.

(I smile every time my browser's spellchecker flags "Obamacare")

Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 08:23 AM (JBggj)

92 Also the phone book does not link to my bank account.

Also the phone book does not link to my credit cards.

Shall I continue?

Posted by: alexthechick

Please do. I love seeing glib, facile 'arguments' like Federale's get shredded into oblivion.

* NomPopcornNom *

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at January 23, 2014 08:23 AM (cxs6V)

It's a sad fact Willow. You can't really trust anybody.

http://tinyurl.com/ax4jmws

Posted by: maddogg at January 23, 2014 08:23 AM (xWW96)

89 -

That, and we don't have 60 votes in the Senate, nor the White House, so why bother.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 23, 2014 08:23 AM (TOk1P)

95 Hey! I gotta alotta meta-data in my pants!!

Posted by: the guy that has everything in his pants at January 23, 2014 08:23 AM (NpXoL)

96 The good news: SMOD is real.

The bad news: It's Planet Hillary.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 23, 2014 08:24 AM (B/VB5)

97 maddog! ^%$%!##@

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:24 AM (nqBYe)

98 See what I mean? Heh

Posted by: maddogg at January 23, 2014 08:24 AM (xWW96)

99 Am I the only person who know that the Patriot Act did not authorize this kind of widescale Hoovering of damn near everything, everywhere?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 23, 2014 08:25 AM (659DL)

100 brat.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:25 AM (nqBYe)

101 knew dammit.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 23, 2014 08:25 AM (659DL)

102 Am I the only person who know that the Patriot Act did not authorize this kind of widescale Hoovering of damn near everything, everywhere? *** Of course not. Otherwise Obama wouldn't be catching so much flack for breaking the law.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:26 AM (DmNpO)

103 Circa, the writer (?name) had said that a couple of years ago.

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:26 AM (nqBYe)

104 Beyond that it's going to be up to the market to decide when a company too loosely gives up info freely. Many times, this administration is approaching the companies and saying, "Give us this info or else." like they did to LavaBit. And I like what FF's folks said the other day about keeping an eye on their own software to prevent the gubmint from screwing with it.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 23, 2014 08:26 AM (0HooB)

105 Drudge puts up the occasional story on local cop checkpoints where the cops ask the drivers to "voluntarily" submit a DNA sample.

Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 08:26 AM (JBggj)

106 This, by the way, is what happens EVERY TIME the intelligence apparatus is allowed to define a "good idea."

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 23, 2014 08:27 AM (659DL)

107 so.
if the intent to collect data on every tom, dick and jane isn't useful for the stated goal, why collect it?

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:27 AM (nqBYe)

108 Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 12:23 PM (JBggj) Indeed, and people forget this. I often chuckle when people get letters from hospitals offering them enrollment in some study or some such based on say and ER visit. (This is not made up, I had a friend whose daughter has Asthma symptoms but is too young to be diagnosed with asthma, after an ER visit she got a letter like this.) They seem floored and say "what about privacy!" Imagine this on a greater and more malicious scale if the left ever gets its single payer enacted. (TBH, I'm surprised we haven't seen Medicare files used against people yet.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:27 AM (GaqMa)

109
* orders an I ♣ Hillary t-shirt*

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 23, 2014 08:28 AM (n0DEs)

110 I saw MetaData open for King Diamond and Voivod at L'Amour's in Brooklyn, June 86'

Posted by: dananjcon at January 23, 2014 08:31 AM (NpXoL)

111 Drudge puts up the occasional story on local cop checkpoints where the cops ask the drivers to "voluntarily" submit a DNA sample. Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 12:26 PM (JBggj) I have seen these, and although I'm not a lawyer, I am a research ethicist, and I'm still wondering if these run afoul of the federal research regulations commonly called "The common rule." (In reality there are several of them, but they're all similar.) Frankly, I cannot see how it doesn't. Even though the Common rule doesn't define coercion (it might not even mention it) it's basis in the Nuremberg code is quite clear, and my reading of Nuremberg would prohibit these actions as an "element of...constraint or coercion"

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:31 AM (GaqMa)

112 I don't mind putting restrictions on what the Intel Community can and should do, it's just I do NOT want the Congress being the ones doing it! Frank Church Frank Church Frank Church

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2014 08:31 AM (t3UFN)

113 >>>Hey! I gotta alotta meta-data in my pants!!<<<

Is that that meta data in your meggings or are you just poorly endowed?

Posted by: The NSA at January 23, 2014 08:32 AM (UzPAd)

114 Frankly, I cannot see how it doesn't. Even though the Common rule doesn't define coercion (it might not even mention it) it's basis in the Nuremberg code is quite clear, and my reading of Nuremberg would prohibit these actions as an "element of...constraint or coercion" Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 12:31 PM (GaqMa) Violates Search and Seizure

Posted by: MikeH at January 23, 2014 08:33 AM (136wp)

115

111 -

I recall seeing something too, (it might have been here) about the fact that local cops were being asked to do the bidding of whomever it was who was collecting this data, which was NOT a legal use of cops and resources.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 23, 2014 08:35 AM (TOk1P)

116 So, completely OT. My son's birthday is coming up in a couple months (mid April- he'll be 7), so we asked him what theme he wants for his birthday. As a joke, I suggested a D&D theme. He loved it. Whoops. Now Mrs. Tenther has to figure out how to make a D6 cake (well, really 3 of them, 'cause duh) and I have to write an "adventure" (a scavenger-hunt type thingy).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:35 AM (PYAXX)

117 Why did the meta-data cross the road? To better listen in on your phone calls. If meta-data falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Yes, and the NSA will be there to record it.

Posted by: BlueStateRebel at January 23, 2014 08:35 AM (7ObY1)

118 There used to be a time that we would empower a panel of respected patriots to help solve a problem like this. But we seem to be running low on respect and patriots?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2014 08:36 AM (t3UFN)

119 Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 23, 2014 12:31 PM (t3UFN)

Interestingly, this was sent to all the members of a team I'm on at work for review, as we're wrasslin' with some policy issues/legalities with the project we're working and it was generally applicable. It's a pretty good read.

http://tinyurl.com/kv7s7xf

Posted by: Country Singer at January 23, 2014 08:38 AM (L8r/r)

120 Now Mrs. Tenther has to figure out how to make a D6 cake (well, really 3 of them, 'cause duh) and I have to write an "adventure" (a scavenger-hunt type thingy). *** Just Binged 'dungeons and dragons cake' and a ton of stuff came up.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:39 AM (DmNpO)

121

Federale got a call from his doctor. Then half an hour later, he called his boyfriend. Then the boyfriend called a local organization that helps people with HIV, then a doctor who specializes in treating them.

Without listening to a single phone call, we've just learned a whole lot about Federale.

Uncle Sam has a neat tool called Analyst's Notebook that makes those connections for the analyst. Convenient, eh?

Posted by: AZ Hi Desert (All my Hate cannot be found) at January 23, 2014 08:40 AM (u1jJP)

122 Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 12:35 PM (PYAXX) d6 Cake is easy: triple layer 9X9 cakes, ice and number with gel.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:40 AM (GaqMa)

123 OT: Obama calls on nation to recommit to abortion. http://tinyurl.com/kj52s8q Yeah. Subhuman mongrel fits.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:41 AM (xZxMD)

124 OT: Obama calls on nation to recommit to abortion. *** Obama's "I have a dream" speech.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:42 AM (DmNpO)

125 Violates Search and Seizure Posted by: MikeH at January 23, 2014 12:33 PM (136wp) Isn't the typical remedy for search and seizure to either a) give back the items and/or b) exclude from evidence. Since these aren't court cases, and the items are questions and a breath test (and cheek swab maybe?) there's not much to give back. Plus it's "voluntary" (scare quotes intentional, it's not clear people realize that.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:42 AM (GaqMa)

126 Drudge puts up the occasional story on local cop checkpoints where the cops ask the drivers to "voluntarily" submit a DNA sample. Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 12:26 PM (JBggj) I have seen these, and although I'm not a lawyer, I am a research ethicist, and I'm still wondering if these run afoul of the federal research regulations commonly called "The common rule." (In reality there are several of them, but they're all similar.) Frankly, I cannot see how it doesn't. Even though the Common rule doesn't define coercion (it might not even mention it) it's basis in the Nuremberg code is quite clear, and my reading of Nuremberg would prohibit these actions as an "element of...constraint or coercion" --- I've heard about these in my area. The cops are apparently offering the people a token amount ($5?) for answering a survey and more for a DNA sample (about $50). Given the legal issues in my area with the DNA samples collected during the search for a serial killer who turned out to be Derrick Todd Lee about 12 years ago, I'd be VERY wary of turning over a DNA sample without very strict limits on what could be done with it. The samples in the case I'm talking about were submitted by people to guarantee they were not the killer in question, but the police did not destroy those samples once a perfect match was made to Lee, resulting in litigation.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 08:44 AM (/Crba)

127 something corny.
My country, 'tis of thee,Sweet land of liberty,Of thee I sing;Land where my fathers died,Land of the pilgrims' pride,From ev'ry mountainsideLet freedom ring!2My native country, thee,Land of the noble free,Thy name I love;I love thy rocks and rills,Thy woods and templed hills;My heart with rapture thrills,Like that above. 3Let music swell the breeze,And ring from all the treesSweet freedom's song;Let mortal tongues awake;Let all that breathe partake;Let rocks their silence break,The sound prolong. 4Our fathers' God to Thee,Author of liberty,To Thee we sing.Long may our land be bright,With freedom's holy light,Protect us by Thy might,Great God our King----

i had thought this was the stated Goal of America at it fullness?

Posted by: willow at January 23, 2014 08:44 AM (nqBYe)

128 Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 12:44 PM (/Crba) Of course DNA samples are hard to avoid giving. Every blood donation or blood draw leaves a DNA sample many being used for research. Even if they're anonymized, it's only a matter of time before something goes wrong with that.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:45 AM (GaqMa)

129 Many times, this administration is approaching the companies and saying, "Give us this info or else." like they did to LavaBit.

And I like what FF's folks said the other day about keeping an eye on their own software to prevent the gubmint from screwing with it. Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at January 23, 2014 12:26 PM (0HooB)

Which brings up back to Insty's we are all paranoid conspiracy theorists now point. The Qwest CEO claims that the reason he went to Club Fed is because he refused to allow such spying. I always rolled my eyes until they were back in my head at his claims that the prosecution was some kind of government vendetta to shut down Qwest.

Yeah.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD, you taunty bitch. at January 23, 2014 08:45 AM (Gk3SS)

130

OK, serious and sincere question...

Government goes to AT&T and says "hey, can I have all call metadata for the past 90 days?" AT&T says "yeah, OK."

Is this actually a 4A violation? I guess another way to ask this is who actually owns the metadata? It seems to me AT&T has it, not me, so I can't cry foul if AT&T gives it to the government - or at least that's how I see the argument going.

On the other hand, if the government wanted to look through my paper phone records, then yeah, I could see a 4A issue there. I'm just trying to connect the dots here.

Posted by: @JohnTant at January 23, 2014 08:45 AM (eytER)

131 Historically the government has been nearly as intrusive. They got copies of every telegram sent, for example. They also got around "not spying on Americans" by having friendly relationships with other governments who did; like Canada or France. It was a sort of gentleman's agreement. I spy on your people and hand you the info, you spy on mine. That in itself was horrible, but the data was limited by their ability to analyze it. Data analysis and storage has grown by quite a bit thanks to Computer Science and Math people and Materials Science and etc.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 23, 2014 08:45 AM (P7Wsr)

132 OT Jim Gerlach, longtime RINO from PA who said he won't run for re-election, tweeted this Jim Gerlach ‏@JimGerlach 9m Will be on @TalkRadio1210 at 3:35 PM discussing my bill to have the President fulfill his duty to #EnforceAllLaws http://tinyurl.com/kh2jwec

Posted by: votermom at January 23, 2014 08:45 AM (GSIDW)

133 Stop the presses. Obama has lost the gay athlete wars. http://t.co/2D5wq11VSh

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:46 AM (DmNpO)

134 128 Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 12:44 PM (/Crba) Of course DNA samples are hard to avoid giving. Every blood donation or blood draw leaves a DNA sample many being used for research. Even if they're anonymized, it's only a matter of time before something goes wrong with that. --- They can get my DNA from somewhere, but I'm not voluntarily giving them a DNA swab without a lawyer crawling up their ass with strict limits on what can be done with it.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 08:46 AM (/Crba)

135 110 Voivod What ever happened to Celtic Frost? -SOD

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at January 23, 2014 08:47 AM (Whlww)

136 133 Stop the presses. Obama has lost the gay athlete wars. http://t.co/2D5wq11VSh --- I couldn't see any pictures of the uniforms. Are they as fabulous as they sound?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 08:47 AM (/Crba)

137

38: " but I do make sure to mention that

Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor

on every thread, still."

Yes. But there seems to be something missing.

Excuse me. I must go and get a beverage to quench this strange thirst I have. Must have been something....salty.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at January 23, 2014 08:47 AM (f6ZLT)

138 In case anyone was looking for another reason to avoid Subway sandwiches:

"MoochÂ’s Â“LetÂ’s MoveÂ” Campaign To Invade Subway Sandwich Shops Across AmericaÂ…"

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at January 23, 2014 08:48 AM (cxs6V)

139 They can get my DNA from somewhere, but I'm not voluntarily giving them a DNA swab without a lawyer crawling up their ass with strict limits on what can be done with it. Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 23, 2014 12:46 PM (/Crba) This is the odd thing. Technically the police aren't the ones taking the DNA swabs, it's the researchers (DOT employees? I'm less clear on that.) Which is what makes the police presence really weird, and I argue, intended as a form of coercion. (I'm not saying you're not right to decline, I'm just saying the whole fucking thing is weird.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:48 AM (GaqMa)

140 I like watching Kate Upton's breaths.

Posted by: jwpaine @PirateBallerina at January 23, 2014 08:48 AM (2oU2+)

141 Why does the fleshy moon in the sidebar look like it wishes to consume my soul?

Posted by: joncelli at January 23, 2014 08:48 AM (RD7QR)

142 Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 12:41 PM (xZxMD)

heh.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at January 23, 2014 08:48 AM (gHDMy)

143 Of course DNA samples are hard to avoid giving. Every blood donation or blood draw leaves a DNA sample many being used for research.

Even if they're anonymized, it's only a matter of time before something goes wrong with that.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 12:45 PM (GaqMa)

Tell me about it!

Posted by: Henrietta Lacks at January 23, 2014 08:48 AM (L8r/r)

144 Posted by: Henrietta Lacks at January 23, 2014 12:48 PM (L8r/r) Someone read the book! Great example too, they used her unique proteins to ID several of her relatives

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 08:49 AM (GaqMa)

145 DNA samples + single-payer health insurance ... what could go wrong?

Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 08:49 AM (JBggj)

146 Stop the presses. Obama has lost the gay athlete wars. He come in last?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 08:49 AM (xZxMD)

147 And would be illegal even if supported by the Patriot Act.

Posted by: gm at January 23, 2014 08:50 AM (K0tm3)

148 I don't mind putting restrictions on what the Intel Community can and should do, it's just I do NOT want the Congress being the ones doing it! Frank Church Frank Church Frank Church That's why we have elections and a legislative and a judicial branch. I was no fan of Church, but this one is just BEGGING for widespread abuse.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 23, 2014 08:52 AM (659DL)

149

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at January 23, 2014 08:52 AM (659DL)

150 Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 23, 2014 12:49 PM (GaqMa)

Yep, required reading for a class I took.

Posted by: Country Singer at January 23, 2014 08:53 AM (L8r/r)

151 Did it not take Edward Snowden's leaks for the extent of this data collection to become public? Panel statements, congressional hearings, pronouncements from TFG, it's all just damage control. Someone, somewhere, may get a hand slapped. Or some piece of paper will have a few words on it changed. Problem solved. Then the government can get back to doing whatever the hell they want to, and who's to know any better until the next Snowden drops? Theater is all this is. Security theater at the airport. Justice theater in the courts. Political theater at the Capital. All for the consumption of the proles, to the amusement of our Betters.

Posted by: Normal man, spitting on his hands at January 23, 2014 08:54 AM (agLwc)

152 Drudge puts up the occasional story on local cop checkpoints where the cops ask the drivers to "voluntarily" submit a DNA sample. My wife had a bad experience with a cop doing a "voluntary" breath test on her. She was driving with friends, all LDS, when a cop pulls them over. When she rolls down the window he claims he smells alcohol, this is news to her and her friends as none of them have ever had alcohol in their lives. So he makes her get out of the car and doesn't let her get her jacket. So she's standing on the side of the road in 17 degree weather for ten minutes while the cop is in his car running everyone's license. He then comes back to her, she has her hands in her pockets, because freezing. He puts his hand on his weapon and orders her hands out of her pockets. She's beyond pissed now. He offers to give her a breathalyzer test, making a big deal of showing her it says 0.0. She sarcastically tells him it'll say 0.0 when he's done. He gives her the test and sure enough it's 0.0. He then lectures her on alcohol for a while, and again asserts he smelled alcohol, he just doesn't know who it's coming from. Finally he makes a big deal about how he's letting them go because he can't prove she's been drinking. I don't have to tell her not to volunteer information to police.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 23, 2014 08:54 AM (P7Wsr)

153 "MoochÂ’s Â“LetÂ’s MoveÂ” Campaign To Invade Subway Sandwich Shops Across AmericaÂ…"

Mooch has recently cited Hanoi Jane as a role model (just in case none of us had noticed that she hates America).

http://is.gd/jrfzBO

Posted by: HR at January 23, 2014 08:55 AM (ZKzrr)

154 I couldn't see any pictures of the uniforms. Are they as fabulous as they sound? *** give it time to load. It looks like something from H.R. Puffinstuff

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 08:55 AM (DmNpO)

155 110 Voivod

What ever happened to Celtic Frost?

-SOD

***

Voivod is still around don't know about Celtic Frost (hated them) I was more of a Venom man.

Posted by: dananjcon at January 23, 2014 08:57 AM (NpXoL)

156 "MoochÂ’s Â“LetÂ’s MoveÂ” Campaign To Invade Subway Sandwich Shops Across AmericaÂ…"

I'll move.

To Quiznos.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2014 08:57 AM (8ZskC)

157 Then the government can get back to doing whatever the hell they want to, and who's to know any better until the next Snowden drops? Government agencies make hiding what they're really doing an art form. With a group like the NSA (no such agency, never say anything), nobody really has any clue what they're actually doing.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 23, 2014 08:58 AM (P7Wsr)

158 Is this actually a 4A violation? I guess another way to ask this is who actually owns the metadata? It seems to me ATT has it, not me, so I can't cry foul if ATT gives it to the government - or at least that's how I see the argument going. Technically it is AT&Ts data- by law or legal opinion, I can't recall which. Now, the problem with that is that it is still "my" data in the same way that legal documents drawn up at my direction by a lawyer is "mine." I didn't create those documents, I don't "have" them, but they're mine. Or medical information. So while it is true that AT&T houses the information (and by current understanding of the law it is "theirs"), by any reasonable standard it should be "mine" at least to the extent it should be privileged.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 23, 2014 08:58 AM (PYAXX)

159 What ever happened to Celtic Frost?

Their singer did a track on Dave Grohl's "Probot" record a few years back.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 23, 2014 08:59 AM (B/VB5)

160
Pardon me but shouldn't the poat below bet titled Global Warming Shaman To Testify Under Oathnot Scientist?

Posted by: soothsayer, with arms akimbo at January 23, 2014 08:59 AM (gYIst)

161 We never metadata we didn't want to collect.

*rimshot*

Posted by: The NSA, Here All Week at January 23, 2014 08:59 AM (8ZskC)

162 In a development which will shock almost nobody, Obama has been lying about his deal with Iran. >>The Iranian president tells Fareed Zakaria of CNN that, under the nuclear deal, there will be no limitations to nuclear technology and no destruction of centrifuges: http://tinyurl.com/q9wfhoh Gotta love Zakaria calling the deal a train wreck. If Obama has lost CNN ...

Posted by: JackStraw at January 23, 2014 09:00 AM (g1DWB)

163 155 I was more of a Venom man. LOL, right on. After the first near-meltdown of my family over my purchase of Slayer's "Show No Mercy", I haven't looked back. Damn, that was at Penguin Feather now that I think of it. SOD actually did a song called "Whatever happened to Cel..."

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at January 23, 2014 09:00 AM (Whlww)

164 soothsayer, with arms akimbo

Are you typing with your arms akimbo?

Posted by: eleven at January 23, 2014 09:00 AM (KXm42)

165 I couldn't see any pictures of the uniforms. Are they as fabulous as they sound? They aren't fabulous. They remind me of Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne when they get skiing outfits with the briefcase of money.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 23, 2014 09:00 AM (P7Wsr)

166
hajajaja, I love it!

Iran is telling the White House to go eff itself.

Posted by: soothsayer, with arms akimbo at January 23, 2014 09:01 AM (gYIst)

167
Are you typing with your arms akimbo?

Are you challenging me?

Posted by: soothsayer, with arms akimbo at January 23, 2014 09:01 AM (gYIst)

168 hajajaja, I love it!

Iran is telling the White House to go eff itself.

Barky has already ordered Reggie to go find the vaseline.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 23, 2014 09:02 AM (8ZskC)

169 They aren't fabulous. They remind me of Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne when they get skiing outfits with the briefcase of money. **** WORSE!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 09:02 AM (DmNpO)

170 Mooch has recently cited Hanoi Jane as a role model (just in case none of us had noticed that she hates America).

http://is.gd/jrfzBO

Posted by: HR at January 23, 2014 12:55 PM (ZKzrr)

HR, last night I kinda went off on you in a thread. Was bad behavior or my part. Nothing too over the top, but still it was not playing nice in the sandbox.

Apologies.

Posted by: tangonine at January 23, 2014 09:02 AM (x3YFz)

171 Are you challenging me? *said in Beavis' voice* "Are you threat-en-ing me?"

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at January 23, 2014 09:02 AM (P7Wsr)

172 Reeks of new thread in here again.

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at January 23, 2014 09:03 AM (Whlww)

173 McConnell thread up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 23, 2014 09:03 AM (DmNpO)

174 HR, last night I kinda went off on you in a thread. Was bad behavior or my part. Nothing too over the top, but still it was not playing nice in the sandbox. Like a cat in a sandbox, so are the days of our lives....

Posted by: rickb223 at January 23, 2014 09:04 AM (xZxMD)

175

163: "SOD actually did a song called "Whatever happened to Cel...""

I prefer thier Ballad of Jimmy Hendrix.

. . . You're dead.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at January 23, 2014 09:08 AM (LJpVo)

176 175 . . . You're dead. Epic...before epic was even "epic".

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at January 23, 2014 09:09 AM (Whlww)

177 Hey, where is everyone? I'm out here looking for you!

Posted by: SMOD at January 23, 2014 09:12 AM (F58x4)

178 "Shall I continue?" --- No need, if you have to explain to someone the difference between a phone book and what's being collected then person you're explaining it too is likely too ignorant to understand.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at January 23, 2014 09:12 AM (7mQyC)

179 51 Breathe alex!!
Posted by: NCKate at January 23, 2014 12:04 PM (x6fKj)

Yes! Breathe. Deeply. Deeper... deeper...

Waitwaitwait. First put on your corset...

Faster. Faster. Faster.

Posted by: rickb223

Pfffttt, yer doin' it wrong.

Ya takes the corset off!

Then breathe

Posted by: Gmac at January 23, 2014 09:18 AM (4pjhs)

180 Because a group of male muslims between the age of 20 and 30 overstayed their visa on 9/11/2001 - we have to sniff the phone records of every American.

Posted by: SavEcig at January 23, 2014 09:18 AM (zWaPh)

181
Wait, Bieber is Canadian!?!

Posted by: soothsayer, with arms akimbo at January 23, 2014 09:19 AM (gYIst)

182 Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Committee (so private, you never heard of them before) If you like your privacy, you can keep your privacy.

Posted by: Bozo Obramack at January 23, 2014 09:26 AM (MhA4j)

183 "Bulk collection predates the Patriot Act. As Andrew McCarthy points out, telephone companies publish information about you. It is called a phone book. None of the information held by a telephone company is your private information. The telephone companies are free to cooperate with the government by providing their information about you, just as they publish their information about you."

And as I pointed out in my reply to Mr McCarthy, there is a world of difference between a company, with your agreement, possessing or publishing a listing about you, and the government assembling a database of all information possessed by all companies about you - and in database whose keys can be used to interrogate other federal database, such as those possessed by Homeland Security, the Social Security Administration, the IRS, and myriad others.

As others here have pointed out, such information is useless for for detecting terrorist activity before the fact. It is only only for digging up information perceived enemies. And whom does this government see as their enemies? For your answer to that, my friend, look in the mirror.

You may be happy living in the government's electronic panopticon. I sure as hell am not. And I say: Tear it down.

Posted by: Brown Line at January 23, 2014 09:38 AM (VrNoa)

184 "The Iranian president tells Fareed Zakaria of CNN that, under the nuclear deal, there will be no limitations to nuclear technology and no destruction of centrifuges ..."

How strange: that I trust the president of Iran more than the president of the United States to tell me the truth.

Dear God, how I miss America.

Posted by: Brown Line at January 23, 2014 09:41 AM (VrNoa)

185 105 Drudge puts up the occasional story on local cop checkpoints where the cops ask the drivers to "voluntarily" submit a DNA sample.

Posted by: mrp at January 23, 2014 12:26 PM (JBggj)

There's DNA in urine, right..?

Posted by: affenhauer at January 23, 2014 10:47 AM (SBsQH)

186 Fuck you Gabe, and your grasping northeastern totalitarianism.

Posted by: JFC at January 23, 2014 10:57 AM (+xjLy)

187 Response by the Obama administration? 'Shrug, who cares what they say? A new law? So what, enforce it.'

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at January 23, 2014 01:54 PM (zfY+H)

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