1 Before one on a Sunday?

2 So Wendy Davis/Bridget Kelly 2016?

3 Fjord Carvin' SockOFF!

4 Is whoreshaming similar to slutshaming?

5 Nancy Pelosi's daughter is in on the action, too.

6 Women. They be crazy.

7 So, it's either racist or war on women 24-7. But Bengazi was a log time ago.

8 Has anyone seen that confounded bridge?

9 This is what happens when you reach out across the aisle. Oh, and did they forget Snakehead Carville's "drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park"?

10 You have nothing to fear from bridges, my friendsh. Only fences.

11 WalrusRex, yeah that $100 bill has snagged some trophy winners.  From Sandra Fluke to Wendy Davis to Bridget Kelly.

And people say the American Dollar does not buy much anymore...

*thud*

12 I'm just sorry there's no room for my favorite "racism" meme in this one. Are we sure Bridget Kelly doesn't have an Asian, Latino or African-American in her family tree?

13 Future historians will refer to the twenty-first century as the Bridgegate Era.

14 Did you know that at any given time, there's probably traffic on the GWB? I'll bet there is right now.


Just checked, yep.

15 Did you know that at any given time, there's probably traffic on the GWB? You should see it when there is a jumper. Fucking nightmare.

16 Just like Bill Clinton slut shamed Monica, and threw her under the desk bus.

17 Oh, and did they forget Snakehead Carville's "drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park"? Posted by: WalrusRex at March 30, 2014 12:39 PM (PXv0k)


Remember, Monica produced the blue dress because Carville was going out there and putting out the she's a poor deluded stalker who is making this all up line.


You know what's pathetic about all of this?  Basically we could have Hordesourced TPM and MSNBC's responses to all of this in, what, 15 minutes?  That includes time for a few Val-U-Rite refills. 

18 Slut shaming causes traffic jams on GWB. Well known fact.

19 You know what's pathetic about all of this? Basically we could have Hordesourced TPM and MSNBC's responses to all of this in, what, 15 minutes? Yeah, but we practice our misogyny for just such an occasion.

20 ...if a hetero workplace romance ends, you'll pay the higher price
Yeah. Because lesbians never do anything to 'screw over' former lovers. [See the sock link too.]
rsmccain.blogspot.ca/2008/10/huffpo-writer-kills-former-lesbian.html

21 " Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo touches all of the Progressive Caucus ErogenousErronious Zones in such rapid succession he's likely to be accused of having Busy Hands." FIFY

22

Does pushing a meme make MSNBC #Bossy? The people demand to know!

23 I think I'll have another go at it in 2016. Can I count on your support?

24 16 Just like Bill Clinton slut shamed Monica, and threw her under the desk bus. Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 30, 2014 12:44 PM (IXrOn) ========================== My memory is that events happened in just the reverse order.

25 The ONLY people sweatin' over that bridge closure is Democrats.  Nobody else gives a shit.  I didn't like the fat freak long before the bridge issue.

26 OMG!!! Someone had sex with someone else! I am so sick of this nonsense. Remember when this crap was generally confined to tabloids and reasonable, thinking people considered tabloids to be silly trash? I am fed up with 24/7 coverage of who is having sex with who, Lindsey Lohan's latest drug binge, or anything to do with Justin Bieber (in fact, I am disgusted that I even know who Justin Bieber is) while Obama, Reid, the Republican leadership, and the rest of the lying, corrupt, scum sucking leaches patently ignore their Constitutional duties and limitations, spend trillions we don't have on whatever it takes to get reelected, and the world is coming unhinged with resurgence of terrorist organizations, Russian expansion, and the rest. But by all means, lets had the Left AND Right continue to focus on which unknown political staffer had sex at some point, because the fate of the world hangs on that information.

27 Is whoreshaming similar to slutshaming? Posted by: garrett -------------------------- Hey!... What about us?

28 It is the "Anita Hill" method

29 Oh well, another html fail. At least I didn't leave any open tags as none were opened to begin with.

30 20 ...if a hetero workplace romance ends, you'll pay the higher price Yeah. Because lesbians never do anything to 'screw over' former lovers. [See the sock link too.] rsmccain.blogspot.ca/2008/10/huffpo-writer-kills-former-lesbian.html Posted by: andycanuck at March 30, 2014 12:46 PM (hn5v5) Unpossible! Everyone knows teh gheys are the most kindest, compassionate, morally superiorest, law-abidingest people ever!

31 rsmccain.blogspot.ca/2008/10/huffpo-writer-kills-former-lesbian.html It was Lilith, in the Ikea, with the Fleshlight.

32
Which means I'm already yesterday's news.
Thank you, thank you. thank you Bridget.

33 Wind still very gusty here, whitecaps on the lake. At least the temps have risen above freezing.

34 So the first line of attack on Christie was a FAIL which was that Kelly was one of his closest advisers and would never ever ever do something like this without The Creme's approval.
 
Now it will be CC is conducting a War on Women.
 
If that fails next will be he Lacks Compassion or Has No Loyalty.
 
We know he is guilty but cannot yet settle on the specifics.

35 Re-infection & Outbreak Period: Shortly after, the entire "mainstream" media comes down with a bad case of Progressive Meme Transmission Syndrome. The final phase is Dormancy. Until needed at a future date, with a little bit of flexible editing.

36 32 rsmccain.blogspot.ca/2008/10/huffpo-writer-kills-former-lesbian.html It was Lilith, in the Ikea, with the Fleshlight. Posted by: garrett at March 30, 2014 12:49 PM (pSF/a) At least she didn't try to run her over with her Subaru.

37

But by all means, lets had the Left AND Right continue to focus on which unknown political staffer had sex at some point, because the fate of the world hangs on that information.

 

As long as we can still have bloggers doing sex for money skank-a-thons I'm happy

38 The ONLY people sweatin' over that bridge closure is Democrats. Nobody else gives a shit. I didn't like the fat freak long before the bridge issue. Posted by: Vic at March 30, 2014 12:47 PM (T2V/1) This!

39 Speaking of Anita Hill, I remember when telling a dirty joke to a woman was grounds for denying a woman high political office. Of course within a few years groping and even rape were ok. I mean shouldn't every woman be willing to lay back and think about Roe V Wade while President Clinton has his way with them?

40 Fournier this AM on Fox--shocked that Christie would denigrate Bridget Kelly, just appalled. This guy covered the Clintons in AR moved to DC with them and this report is what shocks him. But he is a fair-minded partisan!

41

Posted by: SE Pa Moron at March 30, 2014 12:52 PM

 

Can you also share with us non-premium members the mystery of the ampersand?

42 Crusty Curmudgeon and The Fat Man. How's that sound for a campaign slogan?

43 Donna Brazile ✔ @donnabrazile What's on your menu? Women canÂ’t help but notice how Christie and his cronies are throwing Bridget Anne Kelly under the bus. Do you agree? So obvious... These people have no shame. Disgusting.

44 I will ease your mind.

45 >>>>32 rsmccain.blogspot.ca/2008/10/huffpo-writer-kills-former-lesbian.html So, someone finally found a good use for a phillips screwdriver.

46 pity any woman that has to work under Christy.

47 Donna Brazile Would. Not. Hit. It.

48 Governor's staff closes a bridge lane because of petty politics...BIGGEST STORY EVER The president uses the IRS, FEC, and FBI to go after his political opposition...phony scandal! Meanwhile, one of these two things was on the articles of impeachment being drawn up for Nixon...and it wasn't the bridge lane.

49 Bridget Kelly is at the center of Bridge gate. Well..that's unexpected.

50 222 times?  Now that is some BDS fueled rage...

You know the MFM would frame it that way...

51 49 Donna Brazile Would. Not. Hit. It. I would. With a 2x4.

52 Just like Bill Clinton slut shamed Monica, and threw her under the desk bus. ___ No no no. First we did the deed. In fact, to quote a famous musical philosopher...we did it like this, we did it like that...then we did it with a wiffleball...uh...cigar. Then I called her a trailer park slut. Get things right wingnut.

53 Complicit in Undermining Normal Traffic-flow

54 Would. Not. Hit. It. Posted by: Bill Clinton

Horseshit. You'd hit roadkill on the berm of an Arkansas highway.

55 43 - Sorry..., *must* buy Platinum Card. That's just the way it is..

56 the mystery of the ampersand? It's a lot like the Mystery of Morning Wood, only not as reliable.

57 58 43 - Sorry..., *must* buy Platinum Card. That's just the way it is.. ------------------- Ah! I forgot the obligatory Ampershaming: &&&&&&&&&

58 Remember, Monica produced the blue dress because Carville was going out there and putting out the she's a poor deluded stalker who is making this all up line.

Posted by: alexthechick - come for the Global Warming stay for the SMOD at March 30, 2014 12:44 PM (Gk3SS)

I hate to defend Gollum on anything, including his choice of a wife, but I'm pretty sure it was cocksucker extraordinaire Sid Blumenthal that was the source of that dumbfuckery.

59 I'm trying to look around Christie to see the other side of this story. Impossible.

60 Wow just had a real blast of wind. Must be 45 mph gusts, at least.

61 Where are these whores and sluts you speak of?

62 I'm trying to look around Christie to see the other side of this story. Impossible. Posted by: Soona ------------------ Somewhat like the dark side of the moon.

63 Where are these whores and sluts you speak of? Posted by: OG ------------------------ Mostly in the media

64 Don't worry about the Fat RINO Bastard; he had Rove and Kimberley Strassel on FNS doing his career rehabilitation song and dance.

65 Emperor Gaylord Focker, "Bring in that floating fatman."

"You mean Harkonnen?"

Emperor, "No, Christie!"

66 *And the “report” prepared by Christie’s lawyer not only places all the criminal liability on her (along with David Wildstein). It also goes out of its way to say that she is, to put it bluntly, emotionally unstable and loose.*

Such criticism of Christie is likely to prove awkward once Lois Lerner starts talking.

Nah. That's crazy talk.

67 WHAT ABOUT THE WAR ON GOATS, MISTER ACE???!!

68 Yes, it was Sid Vicious, and I recall Hitchens called him out on that, Sid who started out hawking Kennedy assasination conspiracies, out of the Boston Phoenix, who went on to edit a volume of these tales with CIA turncoat Phillip Agee.

69 &&& Testing &&& testing

70

These idiots think 1) this guy has a chance at the GOP nomination? and 2) he would stand a chance in the general vs. any conceivable Dem nominee (and they could put up anyone, incl. Leland Yee or Sheila Jackson Lee or Grayson, and 98% of the Dem base plus 75% of the idiot "moderates" would vote for them)?

 

Lessee, Christie has made NJ 3% less insolvent and stupid in some small respects than the cretinous populace and Dems would have without him?  Hooray.  Let him continue his yeoman service to good governance and common sense (ha!) in that state.

 

Though actually, thinking about it, a "serious" run for the nomination by such a ridiculous candidate would add to the dystopian circus that will be the GOP "race".  For a serious, intelligent person, there's only the spectacle of degradation left for the US.  Not even a slim chance that the decline will be reversed, or even slowed.  It's not the 1980s, folks.  Look around you.  The vast majority - including those who are otherwise accomplished or functional - are so dumbed-down and ignorant as citizens that the astonishing disastrous lawless un-American clownshow that is national "government" is mostly OK with them.

71 Be sure and pick up a copy of my new book, 'The Men Who Sodomize Goats'...

72 Ya know, it just occurred to me that this is just a local issue. That's one of their new arguments when a Dem puts them in a bad light. Unlike, say, the Park Service building a wall around an open air memorial during the gubmint shutdown. Or putting traffic cones in pull off bays on a highway to prevent people from pulling over to look at Mount Rushmore.
 
Things like that they are forced to flat out ignore.

73 With Sid Vicious, it's always better to have him hammered on Val-U-Rite behind the keyboard than the steering wheel.  Or producing more substance abusing shitheaded vermin offspring.

74 I always thought C-Span was uniquely positioned to cover Bridge-gate.

75 Ace, you know I'm not trolling when I post here, but...a post that describes the partisan-blog-to-media story-pushing phenomenon as you have above, and doesn't mention the fact that the right had the field to themselves in that way from about 1997 to 2005 (Drudge to FOX/Limbaugh/Hannity to MSM) before MSNBC went full-tilt liberal, is, at best, incomplete. The left simply copied the right's machine when it comes to this stuff. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I'm typing this as I walk out of an Italian airport, so I rushed it, but there you go. Now I'm going to duck.

76 Mayor DiBlasio married a former lesbian, and then forced her to have two children. He ought to have been satisfied with her choices and left her the fuck alone. What has he against lesbians?

77 I still remember the days before brackets. All those fonts, psychedelic colors. Good times.

78 Dear Beloved Friend, I recently found that I have won the Turkmanistan Ampersand Lottery. I wish to spread my good fortune with my loving brothers and sisters everywhere. In order to claim my winnings (and transfer your share to you) it will be necessary that you reply to me providing a credit card number, your bank account number, your Social Security number, and a sample of your signature. Please reply soon.

79

Sorry..., *must* buy Platinum Card. That's just the way it is..

I'll get the platinum card when the guys get shirts. Or are we going to have a chicken egg problem?

80 I'm typing this as I walk out of an Italian airport Touring Italy?

81 What has he against lesbians? Posted by: Rachel Maddow at March 30, 2014 01:10 PM (F58x4) They have no furry hineys, no little horns, and don't go baaaaaa.

82 MSLSD-we decide what reality is buster...

//Ray Madcow

83 Chatting with the Horde instead of going full tilt Dagomania?  A true Moron.

84 Potential Republican candidates that are dead to me: Bush Christie Paul Rubio Huckabee And every other RINO sphincter sucker... who'd I miss? &&&&&&&&

85 Posted by: A Liberal AoS Reader, Really! at March 30, 2014 01:09 PM (xoUv9) One tiny difference my liberal friend, everything said by the right about Democrat politicians has proven true!

86 Chatting with the Horde instead of going full tilt Dagomania? For the record, there's no slut like an Italian slut.

87 This somehow reminds me of "Goat Simulator" and I can't quite peg how...,

88 It's no coincidence that dims keep the caricature memes going. They have to be poll tested winners. Even after the Windy Davis bs, they're still going to say that Republicans want to deny women health care. I expect dims to go all out require that Planned Parentlesshood provide food trucks with abortifacient smoothie mix.

89 Ask for a screwdriver at the airport bar, A Liberal AoS Reader, Really!

90 Interesting to me how something, in the grand scheme of things and even had Christie directed the event, is still such an open wound while massive scandals like Fast and Furious and all of the potentially hundreds of deaths that caused, four dead in Benghazi with absolutely nothing known about what precipitated the scandal, and the breathtakingly illegal IRS targeting are 'phony'.  

We won't win this.  How is that even conceivable?

91 And every other RINO sphincter sucker... who'd I miss?

&&&&&&&&

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at March 30, 2014 01:14 PM (vHRtU)

Jon "want to hear me say Romney paid no taxes for ten years in Mandarin?" Huntsman.

92 Posted by: garrett at March 30, 2014 01:12 PM (pSF/a) Visiting the sites of Mussolini's triumphs!

93 the fact that the right had the field to themselves in that way from about 1997 to 2005 (Drudge to FOX/Limbaugh/Hannity to MSM) before MSNBC went full-tilt liberal, is, at best, incomplete. *** Um, about that. While the MSM was different prior to MSNBC going full cultist, it existed to help push society and the government left and planted false stories on a regular basis to do so. Remember the TANG forgeries? Tallwind? Reagan created the homeless/AIDS/etc...?

94 The left simply copied the right's machine when it comes to this stuff. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. ------------ (ahem)

95 Haven't heard much from Wendy Davis. Has she cut her loses?

96 87 OG Celtic-American at March 30, 2014 01:14 PM (vHRtU)

Geo Washington....

thing is the sons of bitches really are gonna run Jeb....

I can feel it like I knew in the pit of my dark soul they'd run McQueeg

97

"The "mainstream" media -- apart from MSNBC, I mean, which is a clownshow."

 

Sorry to disagree with you sir, but the whole 'MSM' is nothing but a clownshow.

98 @AndyCanuck - how did you know a screwdriver was my favorite drink? Total coincidence, or is my cover *that* blown??

99 Jeb Bush - shudder - sickitates me

100 93 LoneStarHeeb at March 30, 2014 01:15 PM (BZAd3)

We don't want to win....

I'll take the right seriously when the right starts getting coup from the newsies

101 I think Liberal AOS Reader is a musician...unless I am mixing him up with another? If it is who I am thinking it is, he's alright.

102 Italian airport, let me guess Leonardo da Vinci just outside of Rome.  Are the Italian police still cruising everywhere armed with Beretta SMGs and giant Alsatian dogs?  Of course I still remember this extra charge fee at the airport, you could encase your suitcases in Saran wrap as extra wards against luggage thieves.  As if the airport handlers don't have their own rolls of Saran wrap.

103 We won't win this. How is that even conceivable? *** Because our leadership doesn't want to. If Boehner and friends wanted to, they could have made F&F, the IRS, etc THE story of the day. For example, impeach Holder. Or pass a bill replacing the IRS with a national sales tax (even if we don't win the politics of getting rid of the IRS favors the right so heavily it is amazing they fools haven't even tried this one.)

104 My friendsh, you have nothing to fear from a third term of a Barack Obama presidency.

105 We're still talking about a temporary lane closure here which at its worst was inconvenient for a few people in NJ right? No $150 million wasted on computer software, no body count, no impact on anyone outside of a small section of the one city in the state. Americans are insane.

106 27 OMG!!! Someone had sex with someone else! I am so sick of this nonsense. Remember when this crap was generally confined to tabloids and reasonable, thinking people considered tabloids to be silly trash? Posted by: Damiano at March 30, 2014 12:48 PM (j0wOO) Yeah. If only the House Republicans had impeached Clinton for giving nuclear missile technology to the Chicoms in exchange for illegal campaign contributions. But no, they had to make it about a stupid sex scandal. That's when I started having doubts that the Republicans were really serious.

107 Milan and Florence airports are OK. Rome, not so much.

108 I'm typing this as I walk out of an Italian airport ------------------ Poor service? Pro Tip: If you think the Italians are bad, better stay away from Malaysian airports

109 Posted by: sven10077 at March 30, 2014 01:17 PM (TE35l) Who but Jeb could immediately re-establish the finely turned dynasty where every GOPe politician knew his place in the hierarchy?

110 What the hell, the race just started, I looked away for half a second and there's a crash already?  What the hell?

111 What the hell, the race just started, I looked away for half a second and there's a crash already? Women Drivers.

112 Speaking of RINOs, I didn't vote for Romney (I knew he couldn't win anyway) and I won't vote for Christy, Jeb Bush, etc. The only way to get the Republican leadership to stop pushing these DIABLOs is to make clear they will lost their base's vote with them. Remember the leadership gave us John McAmnesty after we revolted over the 2006 push for Amnesty and Mitt Romneycare after we revolted over Obamacare in 2010. They believe they can push any DIABLO they want on us at this point...and for good reason.

113 Somebody kick my ass and tell me to get it in gear... I have the lazies today...

114 That's when I started having doubts that the Republicans were really serious. Posted by: rickl ---------------- They mis-read the American public as retaining some sense of moral outrage. Didn't realize that to the average LIV, Clinton was admirable because of the absence of any moral sense.

115   What the hell, the race just started, I looked away for half a second and there's a crash already? What the hell?

Posted by: alexthechick - come for the Global Warming stay for the SMOD at March 30, 2014 01:19 PM (Gk3SS)

Looks like a typical rush-hour on the 405...

116 117 Somebody kick my ass and tell me to get it in gear... I have the lazies today... Posted by: OG Celtic-American at March 30, 2014 01:21 PM (vHRtU) I'd do it but, eh, I'm feelin pretty lazy myself.

117 All - it's Milan, not too bad. You want crazy, try TrenItalia ending in Naples. Hang on to your wallet! Getting in hotel now, will respond to substance in a bit.

118 Race thread up with some nice cups

119 Anyone know if Danica had a bad breakup this week?

120 That's when I started having doubts that the Republicans were really serious. *** From the perspective of the late 90s, not long after Anita Hill, the president having an affair with an intern and then committing perjury in the attached civil suit seemed a slam dunk. Republicans are always surprised by leftwing hypocrisy for some reason.

121 Somebody kick my ass and tell me to get it in gear... I have the lazies today... Posted by: OG ---------------- See: Procrastination Thread of yesterday.

122 Didn't realize that to the average LIV, Clinton was admirable because of the absence of any moral sense. ___ Having an affair is completely normal, everyone does it. Sexual Harassment isn't anything serious, right guys? The Republicans all do it too! The economy is because of Bill Clinton and nothing else...etc

123 >>> Visiting the sites of Mussolini's triumphs! Posted by: Hrothgar at March 30, 2014 01:16 PM (o3MSL) ...that lamppost on the left, it's the Twilight Zone!

124 Visiting the sites of Mussolini's triumphs! ___ Glad to see you guys have pretty much adopted my politics! Though, could you have picked a bigger wuss to be your Duce?

125

Uh, excuse me, Clinton impeachment was about a little think known as felony perjury before a federal grand jury. 

 

And low and behold, in the few minutes since the idiot in Rome left his goofy basesless comment, a point I was going to make was proven.  Even "right wing" types absorb/accept so much of the idiotic fabricated marinade in which they swim, that there are no reference points any more.  See example above.

 

God, "Liberal AOS Reader", you are fucking stupid.

We can wait patiently for all the untrue, slanderous memes about the "other" side that "right-wing" blogs were able to push into the MSM. As there are no examples. 

Lessee, Jarles Chonson, with one animated GIF (I think), debunking a Soviet-level crude fabrication by a major network? Um - that would be a case of the ludicrous level of distortion in the so-called press being so juvenile that a nobody with a minimum amount of common sense could debunk the "work product" of highly-paid "prestigious" media figures while making cofee.

Name one untrue, significant "meme" hatched in the right-wing blogosphere that has had even one minute of time in the "press". For fun, in contrast, just try to summarize the % of the entire public policy landscape in which popular misconceptions about important issues are directly based on systematic, relentless distortion and fabrication by the "press" (it's about 90%).

The distortion is so universal and effective that right here in these comment sections, on a daily basis, many "right wing" types repeat absurd false premises planted by the media.  

126

"Substance", Liberal AOS Reader?  That should be hilarious.  Only substance would be a boring list of specific examples of the imaginary phenomenon you describe. 

 

Even your framework is idiotic.  Dumb pundits like Hannity don't reach anyone in NPR-flyover idiot land.  People who think they are "educated" and sophisticated for swallowing the crap they get from NPR and the NYT (many "moderate" voters) are untouched by 99% of "conservative" punditry.

 

Why is it possible fisk any random story pulled from the NYT in front of "educated" NPR-listening Americans and see their faces dissolve into panic, puzzlement, and anger?  Because they're ignorant misinformed clowns who marinate in a soup of distortion and false premises and bigotry.  The right-wing blogosphere has had precisely zero impact on this situation.  As noted earlier, the marinade is pervasive, such that even "conservative" types mindlessly absorb and repeat many of the distortions that are the bedrock of "liberal" delusion.

 

127 Darn, this was a good discussion, now everybody's gone and it's the second day in a row of pouring rain, so depressing.

I was gonna say that my closest friends, not political at all, consider themselves liberals because they don't know any better. They watch 1 hour of news a day - the local network and network news - as they've done all their lives. They're too busy working and with family to surf the web, it's all they can do get home from work, eat dinner, watch a little TV or Netflix and fall asleep and get up the next day to do it all again.

Now, I've worked on them for the past few years and they agree with me on almost everything BUT they never hear any of the things we know about because of the MSM.

I guess I'm saying that with only Fox, I don't see how we get to working people. The web is great and for people who are news junkies or can goof off at work, they can find the truth. But how do we reach busy people? The one friend I have who I would consider the most conservative still uses the ABCNews website when she wants online news.

What online news service would I send these people to? The WSJ news is just as liberal as the others and has a paywall. Fox "scares" them away because they believe the hype. Do we even have a non-sensational source of general news (not just politics) that we can point to?

128 Sarah Palin can see Russia from her house.

129 18-1 - Sure I remember the stories from the '80s. Just going down memory lane here for a sec - the far-left story on AIDS was that it was a government conspiracy, which is nuts, but that doesn't change the substance that Moral Majority politics in the GOP of that era kept discussions about causes and treatment of AIDS/HIV in a pretty stunted form for many unnecessary years. But my point wasn't that only right-wing partisans pushed media stories before 2005 - of course both sides did. (For example, before there were blogs, the right did quite a number on Dukakis in the MSM IIRC.) It was a specific response to Ace's frame of blog-to-cable-network-to-MSM. Garrett - yeah, that's me. Although my "alright" status just went down a peg with this post, I'm thinking.

130 133 18-1 - Sure I remember the stories from the '80s. Just going down memory lane here for a sec - the far-left story on AIDS was that it was a government conspiracy, which is nuts, but that doesn't change the substance that Moral Majority politics in the GOP of that era kept discussions about causes and treatment of AIDS/HIV in a pretty stunted form for many unnecessary years. Hoo boy. Bullshit.

131 Posted by: non-purist at March 30, 2014 01:28 PM (afQnV)
 
Way to win an argument, or to change a mind -- Start off with "God, you are stupid."
 
Yep, that's the winning ticket. Be sure and close their minds to what you have to say, then make your case.
 
Works every time.

132 Mitt Romney will ban birth control and tampons.

133 Everyone is at risk of AIDS. It's just starting with gay men.

134 There is one way to end the problem of Left-wing control of the narrative: math. When the money runs out and the riots start, what NPR says won't meant shit.

135 When the money runs out and the riots start, what NPR says won't meant shit. Posted by: eman -------------- I would prefer that NPR & etc. were constrained to real reporting, and the riots were avoided.

136 139 When the money runs out and the riots start, what NPR says won't meant shit. Posted by: eman -------------- I would prefer that NPR & etc. were constrained to real reporting, and the riots were avoided. Posted by: Mike Hammer at March 30, 2014 01:57 PM (aDwsi) Same here, but it's too late now.

137 Oh, bullshit. The medical establishment which are a bunch of leftards first demanded that no one be tested than demanded that everyone be tested. They didn't give a shit about any public health issues but only possible discrimination against gays.

138 >>>> burgerbilder, mmm, burgers Finally, someone gets it.

139 Don't forget the far left story about crack was introduced into black communities by Reagan.

140 Wouldn't it be great if someone else on the right would take advantage of the MFM's obsession with the Big Target to get something useful done while the infantiles are busy.

141 Liberal AOSHQ reader: I'm actually disappointed because that's an uncharacteristically shallow analysis coming from you. On the other hand, this is a familiar pattern, and by "familiar" I mean "happens every time." The left has been pushing crass and often dishonest "memes" my *entire life*, and for the most part the right has been the "straight man" who gets the pie in the face. What's especially galling is that you can't possibly not know about the right's reaction to the Bork nomination fustercluck, and how that *openly* redefined the "friends across the aisle" relationship and led to the incredible furor over the Thomas nomination. This, of course, not only preceded 1997 but in no small way triggered it. It's like starting your climate models timescale in the middle of a cold period and screaming "we're all going to burn!" Or in the middle of a hot period and screaming "we're all going to freeze," if you're in the 70s. I'm also confused by your timeline extending to 2005 when the press, flummoxed somewhat by the 2000 election, turned violently against Bush after 9/11. This occurred to the extent that a lot of young people actually believe that this was a period of restriction of free speech and that Iraq never had or used WMDs. The key historical pattern is: Pre-Clinton, the left cares a great deal about sexual harassment and abuse fo power. During Clinton: Presidential Kneepads. Post-Clinton - suddenly the press cares about these things again. The same applies to Obama and homelessness, abuse of power, the rule of law, Fast & Furious, and the rest of the *endless* list. The situation is just grotesque, and juggling dates and scandals to try to equivocate between the parties to involve is a little insulting.

142 Listen, we can go tit for tat about far left-right craziness all day long. Vince Foster. Kenya. Clinton's secret Moscow trip & Communist ties. Blah blah blah. It's been around forever. Some people live for that stuff. For my money, whoever socked "Zombie Richard Nixon" was in the ballpark I was thinking of. Can of worms, but a theory: The media was largely establishmentarian until Vietnam, a holdover from WWII and the 1950's. The left took down LBJ over it, and then went ballistic when Nixon promised to end the war but didn't. And Nixon HATED the press, in a way that went beyond just left vs. right - he just hated them in a class resentment kind of way. And they hated him. He was always kind of a special case. So the press returned the favor, took him down (not without cause, imo), and in the ashes the right vowed to create an alternate media universe so that could never happen again without a counter-narrative, hence Brent Bozell, and ultimately, Roger Ailes. It just took 20 years for it all to come together, which it did when Clinton almost went down in similar fashion. He didn't go down, though, because impeachment is a *political/legal* process, not just a legal process. If the political will isn't there, it doesn't happen. Something tells me that's as intended. Regarding 129/130, I make a rule not to respond to stuff like that, because yelling curses at strangers is never about the stranger. But my favorite part of the post was the nickname.

143 Yay the ignore_user script still works.

144 Wouldn't it be great if someone else on the right would take advantage of the MFM's obsession with the Big Target to get something useful done while the infantiles are busy.
*********************
You mean like working behind the scenes, infiltrating organizations and the like? Ha! When conservatives try to fight something, say like Common Core, Republicans are always on the side with the Dems/hard left. I guess I just figured out why there won't be a new, better Fox. And waiting for Big Conservative to buy media outlets, fashion magazines, etc. is a pipe dream too since Big Republican would fight them tooth and nail. Big Libertarian is too utopian for me - Yay, open borders without the welfare state!

Well that certainly cheered me up and distracted me from the endless pouring rain.

145 ObamaÂ’s sixth year in the White House is shaping up as his worst, and thatÂ’s saying something. HeÂ’s been in the Oval Office so long that it is obscene to blame his problems on George W. Bush, the weather or racism. Obama owns the world he made, or more accurately, the world he tried to remake.

146

GnuBreed, if you read his comments, and still think someone who actually believes that "Moral Majority" politics had any effect on the AIDs issue, or that the MSM "did a job" on the pathetic candidacy of Dukakis ..... well, that there is any hope of "persuading" someone in a fantasy world that the real world is quite different - nah, I don't think you really believe it.

 

Some of my group house-mates at the time worked at NIH.  I clearly recall one of them reacting to my sheepishly-offered perspective that the discussion of HIV transmission, the idea that it had general break-out potential, even given the then-state of knowledge, was .... sort of politicized nonsense.  He immediately said "absolutely - first time I've heard people in my lab openly mocking the unscientific b.s. going on".

 

So I guess that's what I get?  Demand a list of specific examples of how "right-wing" memes get their way into the press, and I get ...... the self-imploding Dukakis campaign, and 100% inverted nonsense about how the utterly politicized "science" of HIV in the 80s was in fact the imaginary "constrained" discussion forced by the Moral Majority?

 

 

 

 

147 Lessee, Jarles Chonson, with one animated GIF (I think),

IIRC it was a buckhead sp? on Free Republic.  Someone with a truck.

148 &&&&&&&&&

149 Merovign, I'm sorry if you took it as shallow, but in my defense, I did say I was writing it on my phone as I exited an airport. That said - of course I remember Robert Bork. (I was 15, to be clear.) That was rowdy. But the whole late Reagan period was rowdy. Dukakis was destroyed over flag factories and "card carrying member of the ACLU" and his wife's depression and every other thing the right's media machine of the day was able to get into the MSM with very little resistance. Yes, Dukakis in the tank, I know, but it's not like the MSM was this all-powerful goliath bestriding the political landscape destroying the right at will. But again, I was responding to Ace's very specific frame of blog-to-cable-network-to-MSM. Going beyond that is to argue against something I didn't say. But going further, I've never *completely* understood the right's thing on this. The main 10,000-feet-up conservative frames of the past 30 years - lower taxes create growth, muscular foreign policy is necessary, social conservatism i.e. anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion - have been the center of the window until pretty recently, and the first two were damaged not by liberals, but mostly by the W. administration itself. The early 2000's, if I recall correctly (and I was a hardcore news junkie of the time), *were* filled with accusations hurled towards anyone who didn't support the Iraq War as someone who didn't support the troops and were cut-and-runners. That actually happened. I say this as someone who supported it on the WMD basis! My father told me at the time - "you wait, it's BS, they don't have nukes, and the whole thing will be a mess that will cost a fortune." We got in arguments about it. I was wrong, and it won't be the last time. Listen, you know I'm a friendly as liberals go, but I can tell you this - to me, someone who reads conservative blogs a lot more than your average liberal, and who has been watching the landscape really closely (albeit with different conclusion) since the late '80s, it feels like the pie in the face usually comes at *us*! The Iraq War is a big one, and not just about WMD's. There were a lot of people who were just dead wrong about that - cost, outcome, execution, the whole nine. Yet they're still consulted as "experts" about Ukraine and Crimea, and their "analysis" ends up in the MSM. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, Obama's weakness, fecklessness, etc etc. The people who were right are dismissed as unserious dirty hippies. Why doesn't Obama get credit for winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a position that has overwhelming majority support? You never hear about that from anyone, and yet, it was argued that disaster would befall us if that process was seen through to fruition. Does anyone think that if we were still in Iraq full bore that Putin would have done anything differently in Ukraine? At what point does *that* meme get busted? I'm not saying there aren't double standards. I'm just saying the double standards go both ways. The idea that the right is a saintly straight man while the left is a Machaivellian Meme Machine...I can only say with all due respect, it's a colored view. I know it's unusual for me to go this far in, but I wanted to give your post a respectful reply. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

150

Lib AOS, your misunderstanding of my nickname here parallels your grasp of history and substance.  Going "tit-for-tat" between unread fringe right-wing nuttery on the one hand and 24/7 mass media marinade that shapes the entire framework of "understanding" of public policy issues is an absurd construct.   Obviously. 

 

So, as expected, no substance.  No examples.  Just (unwitting) counter-examples.

 

The massive and pervasive distortion in the press has nothing to do with blogs, and of course predates them.   And of course those who lack the critical thinking habits or independent substantive background to do so will not even recognize the distortion. 

 

There were Soviets who actually swallowed most of their regime's idiotic propaganda posing as information, even into the last years.  I interacted with them directly.  It was a minority, and decidedly not your "sophisticated" self-dealing cynics who made up the fashionable circles in Moscow and Leningrad.  At this point I'd say there are actually more Americans who dumbly drift along in the thrall of our "press" than there were Soviets doing the same in the late 80s.  Quite a testament to what's become of the country.

  

 

 

151 I know it's unusual for me to go this far in, but I wanted to give your post a respectful reply. Your mileage, of course, may vary. Posted by: A Liberal AoS Reader, Really! at March 30, 2014 02:38 PM (Gqss5) You have a poor understanding of the Iraq War, the reasons for it, and the WMD issue.

152 LiberalReader still has his seat in my boat the next time he's in Montana. What we need to do is get Fox or Breitbart to hire Monica Lewinsky, Juanita Broderick, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willy, Gennifer Flowers, and Elizabeth Gracen to do a View type show.

153 If I had to pick one of the most damaging media distortions of the last 15 years it would be that republican policies and George Bush specifically had anything to do with the mortgage and financial crisis.

This can all be traced back to Democrat policies and initiatives specifically Clinton, but the dumb fuck Republican party took complete ownership of it.

It's why to this day a substantial part of the electorate still blame Bush for our economy even though he hasn't been in office for 1/2 a decade.

154 This killed Kerry's chances of ever being elected. http://tinyurl.com/lj6xprq

155 Really Garrett? Even after my last two posts? You're a brave and kind man.

156 157 If I had to pick one of the most damaging media distortions of the last 15 years it would be that republican policies and George Bush specifically had anything to do with the mortgage and financial crisis. This can all be traced back to Democrat policies and initiatives specifically Clinton, but the dumb fuck Republican party took complete ownership of it. It's why to this day a substantial part of the electorate still blame Bush for our economy even though he hasn't been in office for 1/2 a decade. Posted by: Kreplach at March 30, 2014 02:46 PM (Xkr8I) Yep. That is what told you the fix was in. The Democrats own the GOP.

157 My recollection was that Buckhead on Free Republic was the first to say, "Hey, that memo wasn't made on a 1970s typewriter. It uses proportional rather than fixed spacing." I think he wrote his comment within hours of the CBS News report. Then Jharles created the famous "throbbing memo" using default settings in Microsoft Word overlaid with the purported TANG memo released by CBS News. I found the whole thing amusing, because working in a printing shop, I knew all about proportional vs. fixed spacing, and even had an IBM Selectric Composer in my office. It's a shame; that was a very expensive and sophisticated machine for its time, much more than an ordinary typewriter, but computers rendered it as obsolete as fabric-covered biplanes in the jet age.

158 Anyone who wants to go fishing can't be all bad.

159 @eman - I will regret this, but I'll bite. Chemical weapons = WMD? Support for ousting Saddam Hussein from Democrats? Post-9/11 strategic reasons? These can all be true, and in retrospect, still be incredibly wrong, costly and foolish judging from the outcome, and there were those who said so before it began. But instead of me putting words in your mouth, what is it that I'm not understanding, in your words?

160 Of course, an entire party in congress doing and saying everthing they could to discredit the war in Iraq, for political gain, while it was being waged, and the MSM echo chamber of such apparatchicks had nothing to do with pubic opinion and the subsequent conduct and fortitude of the enemy.

161 Ad someone who was reliably and passionately liberal for most of my life-and in my 40's during the Lewinsky scandal, I'd have to say that the while deal with Clinton's sexual harrassment and probably rape of at least one woman his term as Governor of AR was covered up to a great deal by the media. if it wasn't covered up by the Clinton machine and the media the women were treated as trailer trash and crazy or liars Bork was demonized as a RW crazy and as far as political campaigns Dukakis was treated as superficially as were most candidates by the opposing team. I think the liberal media has wielded a great deal of control for quite some time. I just wasn't aware of it because I was on that side. However, I thank "A Liberal AoS Reader"for sharing his POV and for being courageous enough to come here in the first place. and hear opposing POV.

162

First who was "right" about the whole nine in Iraq?   Nobody in any position of responsibility gave a time-line, or a specific cost estimate.  The whole "cake-walk" myth is yet ANOTHER example of media distortion - which of course you internalize like all the other nonsense.

 

And your dad was wrong, and is wrong, in a way that is a perfect example of the distorted framework that people with no independent understanding or critical thinking skills are these days.  Who said Iraq had nukes?  They HAD previously had a very far-reaching program to get nuclear weapons, as confirmed by (an often amazed) direct inspection process in the early 90s.  As confirmed by the Kay/Duelfer report (which itself understated the case), Iraq of course retained the potential and demonstrated intent to return to a nuke program the minute sanctions were lifted.  It's sort of an inherent quality, that nothing could change apart from regime change (and even that would be/is imperfect). So your dad, like you, was/continues to be in all likelihood completely misinformed.  And your discussion follows a predictable course, based on this.

 

Recall the 4 separate corrections the NYT had to run about that little error they made, something trifling about mis-stating the actual premise of the Iraq war (that it was to nip an "imminent threat" in the bud)?  The NYT.  "Paper of record".  Mis-stating - baldly fabricating and distorting - perhaps the most important public policy issue of the day, literally a matter of life and death.   To stay in the original framework of this silly discussion, please find a comparable situation where big public policy issue was distorted and mis-resported by the premier print "news" outlet to the discomfiture of a a Dem/"liberal" administration.

 

How about the hysteria about the sand storm during the war?  The absolutely ridiculous suggestion that there was any doubt about the outcome?  And you haven't sat by while, in person, some major TV reporter gets excited like a little girl about an absolutely ridiculous rumor that Iraqi "insurgents" have surrounded some US forces and are going at it on a level footing on some highway in Anbar.  Or had a wire service bureau chief "threaten" to "cover" the tragic story of a completely justified yet tragic shooting of innocents at a checkpoint ("cover" as in wildly distort, slander and wave the bloody shirt) if his office didn't get more seats on helicopters out of Baghdad.

 

Or the despicable hysteria about Abu Ghraib, which received more above-the-fold "reporting" in the NYT than the Pearl Harbor attack did in its day?  (A story that was teased to press 2 times by the CPA media office, with no press interest - until one of the defendant's lawyers leaked photos in an attempt to derail the court martial).  Gee, was it impossible for the NYT to actually talk to Iraqis, who were baffled at the hysteria about Abu Ghraib?  Nobody was hurt in 4 hours of guard misbehavior - in a prison notorious for up to 30,000 summary executions under the old regime, not to mention the torture (real torture) and mutilations.  Iraqis - reasonably - figured that anyone at A.G. was part of the Sunni "resistance" at the time murdering thousands and wrecking the country (as they had done for years already) with vicious terrorism.  Even many Sunnis felt the same, as they were anxious for a way out of the darkness that had lasted most of their lives. 

 

Bork's treatment was just "rowdy" behavior characteristic of the time?   (the mind boggles)

 

But as usual, there is too much in the way of false premises to address here.  A direct result of a distorted press and a populace not given to critical thinking.

 

OK, more patient and polite morons, handing over the job to you. 

163 Thanks FenelonSpoke. Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. I'm always curious to hear about anyone who crossed the divide, going either way. Bergerbilder - there were a lot of politics played around the Iraq War. If I recall correctly, anti-Iraq-war guy Max Cleland (D Sen. candidate in Georgia) ended up in an ad next to Osama bin Laden because he voted for union protection of the TSA. There was a lot of that stuff going on at the time, so not to expect some political blowback when things actually shit the bed in Iraq is a little Pollyanna-ish. The Dems weren't the only ones using the war as a political weapon.

164 Lib AoS Reader,

Absolutely shameless on your part to pretend Chemical Weapons of which plenty were found are not "wmd" in the moonbat narrative.

Do forgive me if I find General Manly Throw McMomjeans IV hero of hole 19's use of this justification for red lines in the last 18 months to mean "DERP-DERP"

http://tinyurl.com/o3cwn5p

The name of the game is Team Jackass Motherfucker doesn't think the GOP should get a foreign policy crack at the bat.

There is not one thing the left brayed on that Ogabe has not done in spades.

165 163 @eman - I will regret this, but I'll bite. Chemical weapons = WMD? Support for ousting Saddam Hussein from Democrats? Post-9/11 strategic reasons? These can all be true, and in retrospect, still be incredibly wrong, costly and foolish judging from the outcome, and there were those who said so before it began. But instead of me putting words in your mouth, what is it that I'm not understanding, in your words? Posted by: A Liberal AoS Reader, Really! at March 30, 2014 02:54 PM (Gqss5) Take the issue of strategic response to 9/11. Think about what that means and think about how the MSM treated the idea. Think about how they set the boundaries and definitions. How much of what you think about the Iraq War was really formed in your mind?

166 So, LAOSR'R, your premise is that Repuplicans got us into a war for political purposes? Isn't that a little Hollywoodish?

167

Well Lib AOS, as eman said you have no understanding of Iraq - but in that you have lots and lots of company, to include most of the US populace and a sizable chunk of the commenters here. 

 

But no worries - there are no overt concrete social costs to being completely misinformed and analytically inverted about the most important issues of the day - on the contrary. 

 

Why just the other day, on NPR, I heard .....

 

 

 

 

 

168 non-purist, my point is simple. Liberal AoS Reader is not a troll, is willing to debate, and is thus deserving of respect for that willingness.
 
We get plenty of trolls, and I enjoy bashing them myself. He is not one. His political views are frequently diametrically opposite ours, which should come as no great shock to anyone. About the closest Americans agree on anything is that Congress sucks (around 90%); the problem is the reasons we think that are not the same reasons, instead depending on your political viewpoint.
 
Does the MSM have a serious liberal bias? Of course, and study after poll after survey shows it:
 
http://tinyurl.com/pvams5j (Newsbusters)

169 Avik Roy and Ramesh Ponnuru at NRO are constantly writing about conversations they have with "thoughtful liberals" about Obamacare and other important policy issues. They are endlessly puzzled that the liberals don't seem to grasp their arguments.

170 171 Well Lib AOS, as eman said you have no understanding of Iraq - but in that you have lots and lots of company, to include most of the US populace and a sizable chunk of the commenters here. But no worries - there are no overt concrete social costs to being completely misinformed and analytically inverted about the most important issues of the day - on the contrary. Why just the other day, on NPR, I heard ..... Posted by: non-purist at March 30, 2014 03:30 PM (afQnV) A colleague of mine is a die-hard NPR groupie. She's very nice and very smart. She is also firmly convinced that California has budget problems because taxes are too low. If she ever says that to me again, I'll tell her she could give California all the wealth in the galaxy and it would be broke again in a year. The NPR cult to which she and millions of others belong is one of the most successful and insidious cults of all time. Those quiet, patient, and refined voices on the radio could not be lying to me. That's just crazy.

171 Quagmire! This was heard almost immediately after the US and NATO first set foot in Afghanistan.

172

GnuBreed, my atypically boorish greeting to AOS is nothing more than a small indicator of the despair and disgust I have for how unserious and vapid the public square has become in the US. 

 

"Debating" someone with such a wildly distorted factual framework is unlikely to yield results.  Note with each comment he makes, yet another ridiculous myth or non-fact is rolled out in response to questions about his last erroneous delivery.   No substantive engagement - just more myths and distortions and example of ignorance and poor reasoning off the standard list. 

Which is a perfect example of what is faced by anyone with an ounce of sense any more.   As I said to a good friend and fellow life-long laborer in the foreign policy vineyard in the years after 9/11, there are no "debates" any more.  One has to spend the entire time and energy allotted to such an activity merely correcting people's false frameworks and complete immersion in myth (as created by the non-stop mass media marinade) to actually debate any judgement calls or other elements usually suitable for argument.

 

 

173 175 bergerbilder at March 30, 2014 03:52 PM (8MjqI)



Giggidy-giggidy...genocide genoice....

//Quagmire

I also like the lie that Nixon did not in fact end American primary action in Southeast Asia(much to our national dishonor)

174

eman, your friend is not  "smart", not in any practical way.  Same with 90% of my acquaintances and family - exactly the same sort of not smart.

 

Your friend has any specific idea of the tax burden in CA vs., say, 30 years ago?  How about per capita/per student "education" spending, in adjusted dollars?  (or more generally - people like her, typical NPR types, would never even think to consider that perhaps an analytical tool like apples-to-apples actual data be used in forming a conclusion).

 

Oh yes, insidious and universal.  Good friend in the NYC area has relatives who, mindlessly and faithfully cite "Proposition 13!!!" for CA's fiscal woes.  Savor that for a second.  Idiots in a state that is itself insolvent, in reflex action, spitting out "Prop 13!".   Of course when he confronts them (I have always just silently smiled and accepted my fate as an undercover FBI agent at a nutty KKK rally with my friends and family), they don't have the faintest idea how to substantiate what they spout.  Nothing. 

 

Did one call-in NPR show - well, it was SUPPOSED to be call-in - but the host nixed the calls soon after we started.  Pretty obvious he didn't want his faithful regulars beclowning themselves and being chewed up (in friendly soft-spoken fashion, to be sure) by someone who actually knew what they were talking about.  He was uncomfortable up to and including the hand-shake as I left - all because I was an actual person with actual direct knowledge and understanding of a topic that he and his ilk were massively invested in mis-understanding.

 

 

175 Quagmire! This was heard almost immediately after the US and NATO first set foot in Afghanistan. - Obamacare, however, is not a quagmire.

176 Does the MSM have a serious liberal bias? - Hell no. The MSM balanced coverage of Bridgeapalooza and Benghazi proves it.

177 Posted by: non-purist at March 30, 2014 04:04 PM (afQnV) Yeah, smart is a squishy term in some ways. She has a fidd in Analytical Chemistry and seems able to dress herself all her own, but when it comes to politics and economics she might as well be a drooling Australopithecine. Oh well.

178 I know it's unusual for me to go this far in, but I wanted to give your post a respectful reply. Your mileage, of course, may vary. Posted by: A Liberal AoS Reader, Really! at March 30, 2014 02:38 PM (Gqss5) fnord (Gqss5) This is what happens when you assume a thread is dead. Anyway, I appreciate the detailed answer, but misapprehensions persist. This is the *core* reason why we just can't simply have a discussion anymore - every discussion has to start with a debate over historical facts which have been rewritten. I even run into this complaint from liberals who happen to be history buffs - a complaint about their own side. Mind you, this tends to be limited to whatever period they're a history buff about - good old Gell-Mann amnesia. First of all, Bork was not just political rowdiness, it was a new (not perfectly but significantly) deliberate strategy of demonization beyond all reason - that resurfaced less successfully with Thomas. This wasn't ordinary, this was extreme, known to be extreme, and deliberate, and confessedly so. Dukakis was a joke to the left as well, which is why he got it from the MFM - which openly self-identifies as liberal to about the 90-percent level, which is why any "debate" on this subject is mind-boggling. Dude, they're out and they're proud, it's time to stop pretending there's a balance of force there. Any talk of Iraq II and WMDs is *guaranteed* to be grossly distorted - there was no significant talk of Iraq fielding nuclear weapons at the time, and the demonstrated prior use of and current attempts to obtain more chemical weapons were two of *twenty-three* reasons given in the war resolution. Unfortunately, some grotesquely dishonest people have vigorously rewritten that history. The "frame" or low taxation goes back centuries, strong defense millenia, and of course social conservatism is not the pale strawman erected (I'm a libertarianish sort, BTW). The "right wing media machine" didn't take over the airwaves and punish dissent, they *couldn't* do jack shit but shout. What you remember is the left-wing media machine (90%) constantly harping on these shouts. Newsies and celebrities hardly took an evening off claims that "no one is allowed to speak anymore," as if their saying that on TV didn't disprove the assertion. Remember that sometime shortly after Clinton left office, criticism *became* censorship, if it was directed at the left. I'm sorry, did Cheny drag Gillian Anderson off to The Camps after she claimed in late-night TV that there's no more free speech? Or did she and thousands of others just keep making the claim? I don't know where you get "saintly" from "straight man," the straight man is a buffoon, a loser. Anyway, this is probably now *actually* a dead thread, but the important part is that we're *literally* living with two completely separate histories that are mutually exclusive - and this is why I've given up on persuasion in politics. "Official sources" are lying, not just a little, but a *lot*, and now that I review history they have been since well before I was born (probably forever, but now so much of what we do *depends* on these sources). Until there is some agreement on the facts, there will be nothing but screaming and eventually violence, and there are some people who expressly desire that (as idiotic as that is). If you can't think of who you can start with the Ayers/Jarrett/Chomsky academic wing of the left and work your way in from there, Zombie and Breitbart spent some time covering this. But that's why it's almost impossible to have cross-aisle conversations that are reasonable now - the deliberate shutting down of discussion, from MSNBC's "shit in Palin's mouth" to Stewart making Hitler impressions talking about Beck to Reid's constant lies about the Koch brothers and the Administration's targeting of individual political opponents and donors, all the way down to the shrill harpy who raises her voice and looks at you and says "Tea Party IDIOTS" in the middle of a dinner conversation. And *of course* the right is pushing back on that, unfortunately too often by just mirroring it, which is understandable because people think you can correct bad behavior by showing someone what it feels like to be on the receiving end. That's one of the reasons I installed the ignore script. The hostility is not just a temper tantrum by a child, the whole point is to *end* reasonable political conversation, and the pushback against *that* is pathetically weak.

179 FWIW! I do not think we have any business at this time, as a country, being involved in any wars. That is because W. T. Sherman is no longer taught in the War Colleges. War is hell, and to pretend otherwise is a grave disservice to those (soldiers) who are tasked with conducting said war. Before entering any war, the leaders must resolve to win that war using all means possible. We, as a country, have the means to win any war with anyone, so the potential of using those means must be considered, and the eventual outcome of using them, before any war is waged. If it is not worth it, then war is not the answer.

180 182 Mero, Quite. It turns out the left does get to have its own facts. I've largely given up on politics and lkely by extension America. Reality will win out and the left is making sure when it does it will hurt. Fuck 'em..... This gun's retired and I am never going to volunteer to endure for this fucked up insane asylum political class untl opfor boots are on our soil. I hate the left moe than AQ truth be told. Jihadi Jim is at least honest about their hatred of our historic Republic.

181 Grim milestones ended with Bush because Obama wound-down the war in Afghanistan.
icasualties.org/oef/

182 Mero - I appreciate your reply, dead thread or not. I do agree that we're kind of living in different universes, and I'm not sure the divide can be bridged, especially when it comes to media perception. But I still (naively?) think there's some kind of usefulness in simply communicating like this, if only to exchange worldviews, wildly divergent as they may be. Maybe that's why I'm liberal at the core - I think it's much more difficult to demonize a person than it is an abstract boogeyman, and actual communication with someone you don't agree with at least, in some cases, reduces the abstract anger of it all, which has some benefit in the world. I'm not trying to convert anyone anyway, in case that's not already clear. In the end, we're all Americans, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak freely about any of this, especially here. And more of my life is musical than political, and it's instructive to see people sharing that interest regardless of political view - it actually transcends it. All of life doesn't have to be in this space. (Not saying that anyone's is, just saying.) Also: The Obamacare astroturf "Fox News Addict" thread the other day was f'n hilarious, the best comment thread here in quite a while. I laughed my ass off. Thanks for that.

183 186 A Liberal AoS Reader, Really! at March 30, 2014 04:45 PM (xoUv9)

The divide can't be bridged, I'm glad you're entertained.

Your Chicago Jesus is using this retardation to destroy the golden goose.

Happy landings.

184 Yeah, I stopped the fight against AIDS. That's why Magic Johnson has been dead for the last 20 years.

185 188 Jesse Helms at March 30, 2014 04:52 PM (7v8o1)

Yup, if I had not been so wrapped up in pushing coke into the ghetto to fund the Iranians Obama is mollycoddling I probably would have cured a virus in a week....

//Zombie Reagan

186 Maybe that's why I'm liberal at the core - I think it's much more difficult to demonize a person than it is an abstract boogeyman, and actual communication with someone you don't agree with at least, in some cases, reduces the abstract anger of it all, which has some benefit in the world. I've seen more and more "liberals" that simply don't act that way at all. You *become* an abstract bogeyman when they discover who you "really" are, and they demonize you anyway - or they don't do it to you, but to others in front of you trying to start a fight. But they're trained to do that, by folks on MSNBC and people like Maher and Stewart and Colbert. And more of my life is musical than political, and it's instructive to see people sharing that interest regardless of political view - it actually transcends it. All of life doesn't have to be in this space. (Not saying that anyone's is, just saying.) Posted by: A Liberal AoS Reader, Really! at March 30, 2014 04:45 PM (xoUv9) fnord (xoUv9) Ironically, I've discovered I literally don't care about music at all *in that sense*, meaning I listen to and enjoy a lot of music but I really care not for musical history or technical excellence (unless it's rubbish), and have little in common with anyone in the musical discussions here. Probably why I never see you anymore. Just be willing to challenge your worldview. That's a (hollow) advantage the right has in this age, you will notice that almost everything we talk about is because the other side is talking about it. Being pushed into a reactionary pose stinks, but it's harder to lie to yourself because you're constantly exposed to other ideas and you're forced to examine them in response. Liberals (like some I know) who watch MSNBC and Stewart and read the NYT and HuffPo and listen to NPR and generally never see alternatives except as parody have a weakness - unfortunately the weakness is not in getting things done (the shallow ideologue, if anything, fights *harder* than the pragmatist), but the weakness is in getting things done that don't later fail and cost everyone else time, money, and eventually their lives.

187 Can "liberals at their core" really support Obama? Is it just because he's black?

188 Well crap. I stepped in it with a dumb post after a thoughtful one. Back to the drawing board.........

189 Mero - Boy, talking about beating a dead thread, but one more go here. I'm sorry to say that, I, too, have experienced the same phenomenon as you have going the other way - angry partisans wound up by partisan media who insist on taking it public, in person - and it's obvious when I'm talking to someone who only gets info from their own side. Usually the formulation is "you know, [x] really pisses me off, and it's because these damned [libs/cons] are so wrong about everything and ignorant on top of that, and they're ruining MY country." Anyone who's invested enough to blurt out that kind of political axe-grinding in public, unprompted, is probably a tough person to have an actual conversation with. But it's not impossible. I've found, FWIW, that I don't have to use the off button if I just don't take the opening salvo as an attack on me personally, and instead, respond, "Hmmm, how did you get to the place where you felt that way?" And usually something about the person's background or personal history will tell the tale, and then suddenly two people are talking, as opposed to Gen. Eric Partisans shouting their respective media's talking points at one another. I know it sounds all new-agey, but it has worked for me in the past. If I have the energy to do it. Sometimes I just shut off. I'm not above that. It doesn't completely or even partially solve the problem of alternate fact bases, but it does at least bring the conversation to an individual level, and leaves the opening for conversation outside politics with even someone pretty committed to their point of view.