Ace of Spades HQ

February 27, 2014

Open Letter to an Atheist
— Ace

I published this (in rawer form) as a response to Seattle Slough, who is not really a troll, but does come here to disagree.

I don't mind that he disagrees. He does get a bit insulting, but it's the Internet-- what do you expect? I'm going to insult him (a bit) in this post.

Internet rules. What can you do.

But having written a response to him, and needing some content, I've decided to pop this out as a post.

We start with his quote, in my usual effed-up manner of quotation:

>>> Let me ask you:
Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old?
Do you believe in a world-wide flood?
Do you deny the theory of evolution?

If the answer to any of these is "yes" you are a fool. If the answer is "no" you deny the Bible as divine truth.

...

Seattle, being a non-believer myself, I agree with you that these things are not true.

Here is where I depart from you: Calling someone who does believe them a fool.

Was Blaise Pascal a fool? Before you answer, you should look him up on Wikipedia. He was quite brilliant. Incredibly brilliant, actually. Also, a religious Christian zealot (I think he'd agree with that characterization).

Was Isaac Newton a fool? I trust you know enough about him to know he was no fool.

Was William Wilberforce a fool? If you have to Wiki him, do so.

What you are doing is taking your lack of inquisitiveness (which I share) for some explanation as to What It All Means (I don't know that it means much of anything, and I suspect you feel similarly) as your demarcation between "fool" and, I guess, a wise man such as yourself.

There are a lot of brilliant men -- far more brilliant than you could dream -- in history, who not only believed in God (and Jesus), and not only were not "fools," but were in fact smarter than you (or, even myself, ego compels me to say, though it's a somewhat closer call) could ever hope to be.

You are guilty not of atheism (which is not a crime) but the great sin of our age, the great Vanity, that of Tribalism.

You believe that your membership in a tribe makes you superior to others; I think your devotion to a tribe makes you inferior.

You are desperately searching for affirmation of self in trivial proofs. I believe this, I don't believe that; ergo, I'm superior.

You might as well be basing your ego upon your favorite ice cream flavor.

Like you, I am an atheist (or, agnostic/Deist/atheist depending on the day). Like you, I do not believe anything in the Bible, except for some small things like I'm pretty sure a man named Jesus lived and caused a bit of ruckus.

But to me, this is about as much evidence of my superiority over my fellow man as my interest in True Detective.

You are establishing, in your mind, a hierarchy of persons, from wise to fool, based upon your own idiosyncratic What's Hot/What's Not list.

Here is an eye-opener for you: Some people wonder more about the First Mover than you or I do. Some people find scientific explanations implausible or unsatisfying.

This does not make them fools; it makes them of a different personality type than you or I.

Now, you will say they're wrong about what they believe; I'll say I agree with you.

But you are essentially doing the same thing a gay-hater does when he knocks him for being gay. The religious were born with a quixotic nature, a need to look beyond the tangible and mundane.

You and I weren't.

We should no more be "proud" of this than we're proud of our sexualities or our eye color.

The Vanity of our age is to find more and more trivial proofs that we matter. That we count. That we're better.

Politics, religion, racial or gender identity, sexual preference... all of it. We stupidly look at the world with eyes full of greed for proof that We Matter. We're Better. We're Special.

There is more to the world than that, if you look. Even if you don't believe in any god.

Some religious people find meaning, and personal validation, in Jesus. Some others seem to find a great deal too much meaning and personal validation in not believing in Jesus.

Let it go. Let vanity go.

I have a theory, which I frankly have not thought about very hard, but my theory is that Vanity is the handmaiden of all other sins.

For no other sin can be undertaken without causing a revulsion in the conscience except that Vanity -- or as a modernist would term it, ego, the Almighty I -- makes up a complicated and nonsense justification for that sin.

Let it go man. Let it go.

So I guess this makes me an agnostic Deist Buddhist or something.

Who knows. Who cares.

Go with God, or, if you like it better, go without him.

But get over your ego. You'll move faster and lighter without it.

Posted by: Ace at 01:36 PM | Comments (1035)
Post contains 870 words, total size 5 kb.

1 Good, ace.

Posted by: NCKate at February 27, 2014 01:37 PM (4KFgL)

2 Knocking yous head agin the wall.

Posted by: butternut at February 27, 2014 01:38 PM (+8yte)

3 Seattle Slough, who is not really a troll, but does come here to disagree.

I don't mind that he disagrees. He does get a bit insulting

No need to carve out an exception. He is a cunty troll.

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 27, 2014 01:39 PM (XKKNz)

4 "May your way be green and golden."

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 01:39 PM (M/VgD)

5 Do you believe in a world-wide flood?

Actually, there's a good bit of evidence to back up assertions of a world-wide flood, or at least a "known world"-wide flood. The Noah/Ark story is not the only one to be found in ancient cultures, it's just the Judaic version.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 01:40 PM (uCYHf)

6 "Pride is what made the Devil, the Devil. It is the complete anti-God state of mind." - CS Lewis

Posted by: packsoldier at February 27, 2014 01:40 PM (WYFnZ)

7 I doubt he will respond to this Ace...but nicely said, well written.

Posted by: wheatie at February 27, 2014 01:40 PM (QsHQT)

8 Nothing like a little religion or lack thereof to stir up some debate

Posted by: oc joe at February 27, 2014 01:41 PM (hqVUe)

9 He does get a bit insulting

He's not nearly as smart as he thinks he is which makes his condescending attitude pretty fucking revolting.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 27, 2014 01:41 PM (FQEMb)

10 >>>No need to carve out an exception. He is a cunty troll. no, let's be clear about what a troll is and what a dissident is. Seattle Slough does indeed engage, and will sit in the thread and argue with you. He is not a troll. Not everyone who disagrees is a "troll." Sure, he gets insulting, and I have insulted him in the above post. Insults are part of internet culture (alas). But troll? No. He's been here for years, and he engages. He will likely engage here.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:42 PM (/FnUH)

11 (or, even myself, ego compels me to say, though it's a somewhat closer call) Self deprecating bitch slap. Nice.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 01:42 PM (M/VgD)

12 Did I miss something all those years in church? I never, not once, heard a pastor say the earth was less than 20,000 years old or that evolution didn't exist. Not saying it doesn't happen in some places, but it's not the mainstream. That kind of generalization would be like me criticizing all atheists for being vegans and scrotal inflation fetishists.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at February 27, 2014 01:42 PM (+lsX1)

13 Mint chocolate chip.

Kneel if you wish, I rule by benevolent neglect.

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at February 27, 2014 01:42 PM (kxSZr)

14 check out the video I added, which doesn't quite make sense, but whatever

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:42 PM (/FnUH)

Vanity, tribalism and a *ridiculous obsession over the topic*. For years. It's the one thing he gets his panties all in a bunch over. Like a dog chewin on a goddamn bone.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at February 27, 2014 01:43 PM (WvXvd)

16 I agree with most of what you said, because you're a smart guy, and by extension, that makes me smart. However.

This does not make them fools; it makes them of a different personality type than you or I.

This is dangerous territory. What are you suggesting? That religion is really only a genetically determined tic? You pointed that some of history's most brilliant thinkers were religious. What's the dichotomy between Newton and Einstein?

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 01:43 PM (6TB1Z)

17 That should leave a mark, that is if the person you are addressing is truly a seeker of knowledge and truth. If not then it is seed thrown upon rocky ground then nothing will flourish except their own overblown sense of self-worth.

Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Proverbs 26:12

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 27, 2014 01:44 PM (Nmx3n)

18 Absolute certainty has turned around to bite a lot of people in the crotch.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at February 27, 2014 01:44 PM (BZAd3)

19 >>>This is dangerous territory. What are you suggesting? That religion is really only a genetically determined tic? You pointed that some of history's most brilliant thinkers were religious. What's the dichotomy between Newton and Einstein? YUP! As someone who doesn't believe in actual god, what else could I think the impulse to religion is? Look, man: I can defend your right to believe what you do, but you can't ask me to take the next step and require I actually believe what you do. I don't. There's a limit to how much you can ask someone to conform to your beliefs. If he's close enough that it winds up supporting you, that ought to be enough. You can't asks someone else to just BE you.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:45 PM (/FnUH)

20 Maybe Seattle Slough could point to where in the Bible it says anything about the Earth being only 20,000 years old. For that matter, where does it say anything (pro or con) about evolution?

Posted by: sluggo at February 27, 2014 01:45 PM (vVv3V)

21 That kind of generalization would be like me criticizing all atheists for being vegans and scrotal inflation fetishists.
Posted by: Gristle Encased Head

Hey now, let's not go hating on the scrotally inflated. We're all God's children......

Okay, they're complete loons.

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 01:46 PM (6TB1Z)

22 Was Blaise Pascal a fool?

Yes.

Blaise Pascal invented differential equations just so he could invent some form of mathematics that was completely useless.

Little did he know that differential equations would go on to become the basis for more form of engineering used today.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at February 27, 2014 01:46 PM (e8kgV)

23 This is a ridiculous set of questions - only a very small subset of Christians believe in any of those things. 1) the age of the Earth - nowhere is any direct chronology laid out in the Bible, in fact the Hebrew word translated as "days" (the earth was created in 7 days) can just as easily be translated as "periods" or "epochs". Not to mention that the Bible itself says "a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years" - in other words, man's conceptions of time do not apply to God. The so called 4000 whatever B.C. date for the beginning of the earth does not come from the Bible at all, but rather from an Archbishop Usher who lived about 400 years ago. That's it. Who was he? Some guy who was doing the equivalent of writing opinion posts on the internet of his day. Not only do the vast majority of Christians believe that the Earth is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 billion years old, there is nothing at all in the bible or in Christian doctrine which contradicts that.

Posted by: Tom Servo at February 27, 2014 01:46 PM (8Fa5Z)

24 Pastafarians get no respect I tell ya, no respect

Posted by: alcoa fedora at February 27, 2014 01:46 PM (hqVUe)

25 >>>>Maybe Seattle Slough could point to where in the Bible it says anything about the Earth being only 20,000 years old. For that matter, where does it say anything (pro or con) about evolution? well... many claim it means just this, you know, there is disagreement on 6000 years or 20000 years (Frankly I've never heard "20,000" years specficially, but I assume he's getting it from somewhere) but of course some believe this.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:47 PM (/FnUH)

26 What did Thomas Aquinas say was the greatest sin?

Pride.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 27, 2014 01:47 PM (V70Uh)

27 It's hilarious when atheists strawman religious beliefs and then call you an unbeliever if you disagree. Atheist ayatollahs. Google John Polkinghorne. When I was in London in the 1980s he made me realize Christianity had a place for everyone, even hyper-rational annoying empiricists like myself. The miracle of the sun breaking through the clouds when he said "God's illumination" didn't hurt either.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (sOtz/)

28 Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at February 27, 2014 05:42 PM (+lsX1)

My grandmother was the most devout Southern Baptist I have ever known, and she never said anything like that, either. She chalked it up to, "How are we to know? The Bible says God created the heavens and the earth and everything else in six days, but what is a day to God? God's day could be a trillion years to a human."

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (uCYHf)

29 There's a limit to how much you can ask someone to conform to your beliefs.

I didn't ask you to conform to my beliefs. For that matter, you have no idea what my beliefs are.

I can defend your right to believe what you do, but you can't ask me to take the next step and require I actually believe what you do.

On this we agree. Since I haven't defined my beliefs, how would you know?

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (6TB1Z)

30 Evolution and religion are not incompatible

Posted by: Purple pill at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (zqXkX)

31 Thank you, ace, for that. I am constantly bemused by the assertion that believers are intellectually lacking. Many folks, both historically and presently, are simultaneously quite intelligent and holders to orthodox religious belief.

Also, to be honest, I'll admit with the unbelievers that there are a lot of hard questions related to Christianity/theism/what have you. But there are also a lot of folks that have done a good bit of thinking on those questions, and their answers are worth considering.

Posted by: Joseph_MSU at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (lQCe+)

32 >>>Pride. In the 7 sins, is Vanity sometimes called Pride and vice versa? Because i mean both, really. Or are they really the same? They are not just kissing cousins but fingering cousins.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (/FnUH)

33 Strawman arguments and false dichotomy. I don't believe any of his assertions, yet I believe the Bible to to be divinely inspired. I also believe it to be written in the context and understanding of the people who wrote the various parts of it, and that frankly there were a lot of uninspired changes and additions as well. ..fritz..

Posted by: Fritzworth at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (7svyX)

34 See, but here's where that line of thinking is wrong. (Not wrong, but a false
narrative I guess)
God's timeline is like a second is a million years or a million years passes by
in the blink of an eye.
So 20,000 years is like saying the Earth was created in 6 days.
God days which could be millions of human years.
We won't know until we pass this realm.
Flood? As Ace states plenty of proof of that kind of thing happening.
Evolution-- how do we know, again, God didn't create the creatures in his
mind (being image whatever) and then let them proceed to the point they exist
today?
It doesn't necessarily have to be on our terms.

Posted by: Roman Maroni at February 27, 2014 01:48 PM (fJS4a)

35 Hey now, let's not go hating on the scrotally inflated. We're all God's children...... *** http://bit.ly/1bPDKSA

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (DmNpO)

36 Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.Â” ― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (OU1Hh)

A question I've always had. God created the earth in 7 days. How long is a day to an immortal?

Posted by: Jollyroger at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (t06LC)

38 Obama is actually a thoughtful, pragmatic man.

Posted by: Seattle Slough at November 21, 2008 02:26 PM

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (XKKNz)

39 Thanks for writing this. I really didn't understand why so many athiests find it necessary to bash, mock and ridicule religious folk (its almost like they are a competing sect). I've always suspected it was due to, as you put it: "You are desperately searching for affirmation of self in trivial proofs. I believe this, I don't believe that; ergo, I'm superior."

Posted by: Fen at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (a422o)

40 Evolution and religion are not incompatible

Posted by: Purple pill at February 27, 2014 05:48 PM (zqXkX)

----

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Posted by: fixerupper at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (nELVU)

41 Speaking of insulting I apologize for calling some of you peckerheads. I was having a bad moment

Posted by: NativeNH at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (ol6Bk)

42 pep, sorry then I misunderstood your comment-- I thought you were saying it was "dangerous territory" for me to posit that a quixotic nature was just a personality quirk. What did you mean, if not that?

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (/FnUH)

43 Yes, we guess that Jesus fella did cause a bit of a stir.

Posted by: 8 billion Christians in 2000 years at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (Dwehj)

44 At the risk of being tarred and feathered by the devout among us, I don't believe that the bible is the divine truth, but I believe, I think, in God, and know that evolution is a fact, and think that the earth is whatever the latest number is (4.7 Billion years-old comes to mind).

Ace, my only complaint with this is that you leave no middle ground for people like me.

Of course, it doesn't actually irritate you and toss you into a frothing frenzy of spittle and denunciation, so, I can live with it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 01:49 PM (QFxY5)

45 When you're a jet you're a jet all the way.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (kVfSG)

46 But I'm smarter than you!!!!!

Posted by: Nana nana Boo Boo, Stick Your Head in Doo Doo at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (Aif/5)

47 Vanity is a form of pride.

Posted by: steevy at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (zqvg6)

48 You might as well be basing your ego upon your favorite ice cream flavor. Pistachioists of the world unite! We are the Ones we have been waiting for! And...uh...burn the heretic Vanillists!!!

Posted by: naturalfake at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (0cMkb)

49 Nice, as usual, ace.

Unfortunately, likely for naught and a waste of time as your fact based belief is mere inconvenience to SS if he/she is--(Wait a second, 'SS'? What a coinkydink for his/her handle what with there being more commonality of thought and actions between lefties and Nazis than for conservatives)-- a lefty. They dispense with any such facts or truths should they alter their tribalistic consensus. Once that consensus is reached, "the debate is over," save for the debate about how to soak the rich (excepting themselves) to fund some academic study on the issue and later legislate the consensus over the objections of everyone else outside their circle jerk.

Posted by: eureka! at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (xiXna)

50 I'm not a biblical scholar, but Seattle Slough really has no idea what he's talking about.

To my knowledge, the Bible makes no claims as to the age of the earth.

The Catholic Church accepts evolution as real (but guided by God), which I guess means they don't believe the Bible is divine truth.

Posted by: Justin at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (7KXNY)

51 The Old Testament should be interpreted "parabolically," not literally. St. Paul says so himself. People should read the Pauline Epistles. And then Acts. And then the Gospels. But most Atheists are "stoners." They feel the "Need/Will to Stone." And since Christians are stigmatized, and Atheists are cowards and therefore "stone down," they try to stone them.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at February 27, 2014 01:50 PM (4ElUX)

52 >>>, but here's where that line of thinking is wrong. (Not wrong, but a false narrative I guess) God's timeline is like a second is a million years or a million years passes by in the blink of an eye. So 20,000 years is like saying the Earth was created in 6 days. God days which could be millions of human years. We won't know until we pass this realm. Flood? As Ace states plenty of proof of that kind of thing happening. Evolution-- how do we know, again, God didn't create the creatures in his mind (being image whatever) and then let them proceed to the point they exist today? It doesn't necessarily have to be on our terms. ... I've heard that as well, that a "day" could mean an "aeon," which is fine, but some people do stick to a more literal meaning of "day." Obviously, being a heathen secular materialist, I prefer the hazy "aeon" definition, but I will not force my preference on someone else.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:51 PM (/FnUH)

53 It's hilarious when atheists strawman religious beliefs and then call you an unbeliever if you disagree Well, I don't know that I'd call it hilarious ;^) but they do do it and it is worth an eye roll.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 01:51 PM (XyM/Y)

54 I'll wager I've read more physics and math than Seattle has read theology or philosophy, and that is the problem. When the best the evangelical atheists can muster is an appeal to Richard Dawkins' circular reasoning and blind faith in "chance," which he treats as an agent as opposed to merely a means to describe certain properties, i.e. the six sides of a die, it's difficult to have a discussion. Those of us on "Team Theism," have pondered these things for many, many years and don't come to our conclusions lightly. And btw, these questions are at their heart philosophical questions. The big "Why" to go with the "What" is something every human deals with.

Posted by: RS at February 27, 2014 01:51 PM (YAGV/)

55
Atheists like this dude think of themselves as so smart, and think of religious people as stupid.

Which just shows how ignorant someone like this guy is, who is clearly ignorant of the vast intellectual tradition of the religious throughout history.

Make an argument for why God doesn't exist, great. But when you say "if you are religious then you are therefore stupid", it shows you to be a charlatan.

Posted by: dan-O at February 27, 2014 01:51 PM (D0bIN)

56 should I change Vanity to Pride, then? What is the more common rendering of this sin, Vanity or Pride?

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:51 PM (/FnUH)

57 >>> Let me ask you: Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old? Do you believe in a world-wide flood? Do you deny the theory of evolution? **** No. Yes. Yes and No. I believe God creates evolution. I guess I am just all kinds of effed up.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 01:51 PM (DmNpO)

58 "Look, man: I can defend your right to believe what you do, but you can't ask me to take the next step and require I actually believe what you do."

Tell it to the Gay Gestapo.

Posted by: Fen at February 27, 2014 01:52 PM (a422o)

59 It's always interesting the atheists seem to know so much about the Judeo-Christian belief system. Sometimes more that Jews and Christians.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at February 27, 2014 01:52 PM (e8kgV)

60 I remember my first experience with Fritz Lang's Metropolis as a small child. When Freder is having his nightmare and all the Deadly Sins confront him and a hooded skeletal Death walks about and swings its scythe well it really left an impression.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 27, 2014 01:52 PM (Nmx3n)

61 38 Obama is actually a thoughtful, pragmatic man. Posted by: Seattle Slough at November 21, 2008 02:26 PM *sound of a bag of wrenches falling down the stairs*

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 27, 2014 01:52 PM (oFCZn)

62 Yeah, huge unpredictable floods have been a part of human history about .. forever. Especially since the start of "civilization", ie large-scale cities that formed along the banks of great rivers. And that's just normal massive floods, not the uber-enormous ones which there is some decent evidence have occurred.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 27, 2014 01:52 PM (ZPrif)

63 Well stated, CharlieBrown'sDildo.

Posted by: Y-not at February 27, 2014 01:53 PM (zDsvJ)

64 Speaking of insulting I apologize for calling some of you peckerheads. I was having a bad moment *** you mean it wasn't a compliment?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 01:53 PM (DmNpO)

65 "What is the more common rendering of this sin, Vanity or Pride?"

Vanity resonates better in this instance.

Posted by: Fen at February 27, 2014 01:53 PM (a422o)

66
Thinking that the organized moral systems known as religions, which have been part of every single human society since we learned how to bang rocks together, were developed because humanity longed for a comprehensive geophysical explanation for bedrock outcrops is rather missing the point.

People perpetuate religions because of our need for structure in our societies, and ritual in our lives.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 27, 2014 01:53 PM (kdS6q)

67 Pride would be correct,he is so proud of his superiority to the skygod believers.

Posted by: steevy at February 27, 2014 01:53 PM (zqvg6)

68 I never, not once, heard a pastor say the earth was less than 20,000 years old or that evolution didn't exist. Nope, and counting all the masses I attended in grade school, I have about 1.5 lifetimes of Sunday onlys out of the way. Never heard that once and have no idea where it came from. We were taught Evolution and Creationism concurrently.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 27, 2014 01:53 PM (H5iSA)

69 I thought you were saying it was "dangerous territory" for me to posit that a quixotic nature was just a personality quirk.

What did you mean, if not that?

Well, I'd start with my disagreement with the notion of a quixotic nature. I don't really know what that means here. Are all church-going people detached from reality and tilting at windmills? I don't think so. That doesn't mean that I'm sold on the strict biblical interpretation either.

Banal as it sounds, I suppose what it means is that it's rarely a good idea to generalize.

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 01:54 PM (6TB1Z)

70 I'm not at all surprised that flood stories have been a big part of human mythology. Or pestilence.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 27, 2014 01:54 PM (ZPrif)

71 Vanity and Pride are two sides to the same coin. Or just think of Janus.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 27, 2014 01:54 PM (Nmx3n)

72 Christianity is about Christ. And Salvation, especially from Original Sin/the Will to Stone Sinners. Not about reading the Old Testament to find out how many times the Earth has gone around the Sun since it was created, or about literal floods, or genealogies.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at February 27, 2014 01:54 PM (4ElUX)

Psshh.

Everyone knows the correct answer is Odin. Just ask Thor.

Posted by: Jollyroger at February 27, 2014 01:54 PM (t06LC)

74 There have been plenty of regional floods but the world wide flood(s) predate the presence of man.

Posted by: Judge Pug at February 27, 2014 01:55 PM (6Nj7A)

75 "I don't care what you believe, but just believe" --- Shepherd Book

Posted by: Dr. Simon Tam at February 27, 2014 01:55 PM (e8kgV)

76 Vanity is a form of pride.

You know what else comes in prides? Weasels.

You do the math.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at February 27, 2014 01:55 PM (8ZskC)

77 to Seattle Slough, who is not really a troll I guess not a troll, for some values of troll. He's not ergastularius, so there's that . But he is a shallow provincial thinker apparently unaware that most issues have already been considered by intellects much vaster than his own, for centuries. He's a wannabe tiny tyrant that determines all value based on what he thinks he knows, somehow, intuitively I guess. He's not worthy of any response beyond Fuck You as far as I am concerned, so I still think: troll.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 01:55 PM (QupBk)

78 Faith and reason are not opposite ends of the same one-dimensional line. Two lines. Orthogonal.

Faith is a gift from God. If you want it, you have to ask for it.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 27, 2014 01:55 PM (V70Uh)

79 Question 2: Do you believe in a world wide flood? Most Christians today regard the first 11 chapters of Genesis as being allegorical, since by their own statement they were a compilation of stories written down many, many, generations after the times they recorded. In other words, they are, by their own admission, the oral tradition of a nomadic, tribal, people. (Chapter 12 is where the story of Abraham begins, and where the account becomes much more intimate and personal) As far as the flood - it is not a problem to consider that, as far as the legend was concerned, the origins of that story lay in a cataclysm that erased the world, in so far as the original storyteller knew it. This seems to be from the same roots as the Babylonian story of Gilgamesh, and recent archaeology suggests that the flood stories may have their basis in the collapse of a geological dam as sea levels rose after the end of the ice age, resulting in the creation of the Bosporus and a vast flood which would have created the entire Black Sea in just a few weeks. If there were a substantial human population living on the plains that are now 400' below the surface of the black sea, the few survivors would have told stories of the flood which ended their world for generation after generation.

Posted by: Tom Servo at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (8Fa5Z)

80 "All is vanity! All is weasels!"

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (Nmx3n)

81

My grandmother was the most devout Southern Baptist I have ever known, and she never said anything like that, either. She chalked it up to, "How are we to know? The Bible says God created the heavens and the earth and everything else in six days, but what is a day to God? God's day could be a trillion years to a human."

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 05:48 PM (uCYHf)

I can distill it into one word: faith. It either helps you or you don't trust enough to try to understand. There are many more things I worry about than how long God took to create the universe on His calendar.

The problem with the lack of faith is, instead of spending time being thankful in all things (and, yes, this has been hard, but I try and am thankful even today waiting on a biopsy and when I watched my father and brother die and other bad things that happen in a life). Faith cannot be taught...however, as a Christian for as long as I can remember, it is part of me. There are many mysteries in life, and we were never meant to understand it all much less a deity. Faith is also a comfort, as I believe I will see my father and brother again and this is not my only life. and I believe God is always with me. To try to change a person's beliefs, well, arguing serves no purpose. It works so well with politics, right?

I wish you all peace and a good life...you only have today, don't waste it.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (baL2B)

82 Everyone knows the correct answer is Odin. Just ask Thor.

Posted by: Jollyroger at February 27, 2014 05:54 PM (t06LC)

----

Speaking of which.... season premier of VIKINGS tonight. I've miss my buddy Ragnar Lothbrok.

Posted by: fixerupper at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (nELVU)

83 Evolution and religion are not incompatible Posted by: Purple pill at February 27, 2014 05:48 PM ...Exactly! It is a tactic that is designed by those who wish to not have to debate further. So I can believe in a God that made the process of photosynthesis or the human eye or the brains reaction to music or humor but that same God is not powerful enough to have animals or even humans change over many years? To me there are way too many complex process in nature for it to be some accident cataclysmic big bang. It's not possible. Sorry. It simply is not. As far as a flood. The earth is still mainly covered with water and WAS once all under it. So It's not much of a leap. As for the age of the earth, many theologians have argues that time measurements were different back in biblical times as well. Again. If you can looks at the complexity of the human brain or things in nature and tell me that it was not intelligently designed then there is no point in that further debate.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (/o+xv)

84 Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 05:47 PM (/FnUH) Fwiw, 6000 years would put you just at the end of prehistory. Which makes a certain level of sense actually. In that regard the bible could be seen as the documentation of the dawn of historical times rather than the dawn of creation itself. Also, I'm with country singer on the flood, lots of evidence that some cataclysm happened in the know world at the time. It wouldn't even be that fantastic if you think about it, a 5000 year flood occurring in the Euphrates river valley is rare but would in theory happen once during a 5000-6000 year per

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (tablet) at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (hq5sb)

@68

I'm Lutheran, attend Methodist services for the past decade, went to a Baptist and then Episcopalian elementary, and married a non-denominational woman.

I have never once heard anyone say anything one way or another close to the "young earth" theory.

Posted by: Jollyroger at February 27, 2014 01:56 PM (t06LC)

86 Perhaps SS comments on other issues. I have only ever seen his anti Theist posts, but I've only been here for a few years.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (XyM/Y)

87 Thanks, Ace.
I am so sick and tired of people who insist you can only believe in God *or* science, when I've sat next to many scientists at church.

Posted by: Lizzy at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (aq/zi)

88 Good post Ace.

Posted by: maddogg at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (xWW96)

89 Ace - this is why this is the finest blog on the web. Bravo. Keep up the good work.

Posted by: Frank Lopez at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (6A6AQ)

90 "Do you believe in a world-wide flood? " I call bullshit on this one. As far as primitive people could tell, the flood was as big as their world. The evidence of a cataclysmic flood somewhere around the time of the great thaw from the last ice age seems pretty conclusive.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (bb5+k)

91 >>>Vanity and Pride are two sides to the same coin. Or just think of Janus. Pennington?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (V4CBV)

92 This contract, known as the Leaf (ṣaḥīfa) upheld the peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Jews and Christians, defining them all, under given conditions, as constituting the umma, or community of that city, and granting the latter freedom of religious thought and practice.

As for the atheists, convert to Islam or ...

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at February 27, 2014 01:57 PM (e8kgV)

93 Gerald Schroeder, Ph.D. in applied physics from MIT, has some very interesting and compelling discourses on the age of the universe that would surprise people on both sides of the argument.

Just saying.

IMO his perspective warrants consideration not only because of his resume, but for the same reason people seek out Jewish doctors. They're the best.

*sarc*

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (BZAd3)

94 >>> I guess not a troll, for some values of troll. He's not ergastularius, so there's that . But he is a shallow provincial thinker apparently unaware that most issues have already been considered by intellects much vaster than his own, for centuries. you had me at "he's not a troll"

He's not. Look, someone disagreeing is not a troll, and most behavior on the internet in arguments is, let us say, suboptimal. To quote a wise man: "let he who is without sin..."

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (/FnUH)

95 Everything that exists was created. Through a formative process. Formation. "Creationism." One doesn't have to believe that God created everything fully formed. But people like to "beat the shit" out of the weakest arguments imaginable.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (4ElUX)

Ace, this is a brilliant topic b/c it goes to all things. Here are some historical observations from one brilliant man and the Nazis.

The biggest problem is that Seattle's point is self-defeating. Logic is madness is logic.

Case in point: Dostoevsky said that the best way to torture a man and drive him insane was to make him do a meaningless task over and over and over again.

Not to be outdone, the Nazis put the theory into practice. At a Hungarian (I think) concentration camp, Jewish workers used to build munitions. This need ended and the SS forced them to dig a pile of sand and move it to one corner of the camp. Then they forced them to load the sand back up and move it back to the corner. They forced the Jews to do this for weeks, day after day after day, a task that obviously had no purpose.

What happened? The Jews went mad. They began committing suicide by rushing the guards or throwing themselves on the electrified fence. The SScommander wrily commented that they wouldn't have to use the crematorium anymore.

If there is no afterlife. If we are all dirt. If the immediate existence is the only existence. If there is no soul. Then all we are doing is moving sand.

We may hide this from our own conscience by doing what we want, indulging sensual pleasures of all sorts. But an atheist who is truly awake and understands this, eventually goes insane. What do you think happened to Nietzsche?

If an atheist is right. All is permitted. You have no authority to tell me that raping a child is wrong. You may have power to punish such a person. But the only wrong is getting caught, not the act.

And therein lies the entire problem w/ no belief in something higher, more absolute than human reason.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (tVTLU)

97 The Bible is, for Christians, divinely inspired, not divinely written. The second-hand (at best) nature of the New Testament is not some obscure fact few Christians are aware of, for example. And the Torah is known to be an amalgam of religion, history, and law, not literal truth.

There is a religion that considers its book to be the perfect word of a divine being, and they get mighty upset when someone threatens to burn it. That religion would not be Christianity.

Posted by: JSchuler at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (ashPd)

98 If any of you atheists knew anything about the bible , Jesus himself rejected much of the laws written in the Old Testament . I would also bet dollars to donuts that most atheists adhere to the theory of karma as westerners define it. Inconsistent much?

Posted by: Lars Kasch at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (DAevm)

99 The fact that none of my kids were ever bitten during the serpent handling portion of Sunday school is pretty compelling evidence that God exists.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at February 27, 2014 01:58 PM (+lsX1)

100 I'm not very religious but if all we are is a happy accident of evolution and we're just talking monkey's flying on a huge ball of dirt through space, well that's a fucking depressing thought. I'm more concerned that our creator is sort of disinterested and one day he'll look over and realize we're not what he had intended.

Posted by: Sgt. Fury at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (DtRUv)

101 C.S. Lewis G.K. Chesterton Galileo Tolkein Patton Morons. /seattleslough

Posted by: --- at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (MMC8r)

102 Actually, there's a good bit of evidence to back up assertions of a world-wide flood, or at least a "known world"-wide flood. The Noah/Ark story is not the only one to be found in ancient cultures, it's just the Judaic version. Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 05:40 PM (uCYHf) Not only that, but the "Great Thaw" is the current favored theory for how the grand canyon was created. If you can believe there was a mile thick chunk of ice covering Kansas, what's so hard to believe about a big flood when all that shit melted?

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (bb5+k)

103 Pride *is* the original sin: And ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. All man's trouble flows from that.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (QupBk)

104
I'm Lutheran, attend Methodist services for the past decade, went to a Baptist and then Episcopalian elementary
Posted by: Jollyroger

OK, we'll put you down for the macaroni salad.

Now is -- anybody -- going to bring a main dish?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (kdS6q)

105 Yeah, but throwing stones at trolls feels sooooo good.

Posted by: maddogg at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (xWW96)

106 I hate tribalism and all those damn fanatics GO BEARS!!!!

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 27, 2014 01:59 PM (qHQCW)

107 I call bullshit on this one. As far as primitive people could tell, the flood was as big as their world. The evidence of a cataclysmic flood somewhere around the time of the great thaw from the last ice age seems pretty conclusive. *** THIS. The concept of "world" was rather limited at the time.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 02:00 PM (DmNpO)

108 Speaking of egos-- Alec Baldwin's goodbye was so full of "I" it was almost an Obama speech.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:00 PM (RJMhd)

109 Hmmm...does the phrase "spit and ceiling wax" ring a bell, ace? Old as the hills and not really worth arguing about. Be of good cheer.

Posted by: butternut at February 27, 2014 02:00 PM (+8yte)

110 "Do you deny the theory of evolution?" the third ridiculous strawman. The bible account says that God created the world and the animals in it, it doesn't say how he did it. I can say that Ace created this blog without having to give a doctoral dissertation on the architecture of the internet, or an in depth history of the development of the integrated circuit.

Posted by: Tom Servo at February 27, 2014 02:00 PM (8Fa5Z)

111

It is human nature to wonder where we come from and to hang theories on available evidence. I don't believe in God, called that, but I do see something that can only be called intelligence guiding evolution. Some Darwinists say it's all random and only the successful propagate, but I have used the example of bluefin tuna developing a separate circulatory system which keeps their brains and eyes warmer than ambient water as a design innovation. It can't be an accident.

I have two problems with organized religion as I confront it. (i) The legalistic bit. "I am the way and the truth and the light and none shall come to the Father save through me". People quote that like lawyers and say that must me He is *the* way (singular) and that you can't get to heaven except through His direct personal intervention. Is that the only thing it could mean? Even in English? I studied up on the New Testament when Mel Gibson made his movie so that I could evaluate it fairly. No one can even agree whether the gospels were written in Aramaic, or Koine, or Classical Greek. I'm a linguist at heart and I know that languages don't map 1:1, and I don't want to be lawyered at via a 12th generation copy.

(ii) The thing that keeps coming up in these threads is that people insist that there can be no morality without God. I say that theft and murder are bad per se and they say "no, without God there is nothing to restrain your base instincts". Which is pretty offensive to the non-believing who cling to scruples.

You, who are on the road, must have a code, that you can live by.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:00 PM (A0sHn)

112

I had a philosophy teacher in college (a conservative one too! holy shit) who read the early versions of the bible translated before King James hit it with a sharpie. It starts out "In the beginning was the "logos""

Logos appears many times across many texts. The word. Reason. You can see this across different religions and different cultures (I think the exception is Mesoamerican, but whatever)

Posted by: Jollyroger at February 27, 2014 02:00 PM (t06LC)

113 I saw Pride open for The Fall at the Salt Palace back in 320!

Posted by: Lot at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (M/VgD)

114 word

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (V4CBV)

115 I thought Baldwin was leaving the country years ago. Does he need help with the packing?

Posted by: maddogg at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (xWW96)

116 People like to pretend that they can be moral without God, but their definition of being "moral" consists of sticking their penis in every hole they come across and harming everyone as much as possible. WTF?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (4ElUX)

117

">>> Let me ask you:
Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old?
Do you believe in a world-wide flood?
Do you deny the theory of evolution?

If the answer to any of these is "yes" you are a fool. If the answer is "no" you deny the Bible as divine truth."

As a practicing Christian (a deacon, even) all I can say is that there are a great number of faithful Christians (like me) that have never viewed #1 and #3 as yes/no questions. Many who have actually read and tried to faithfully understand the Genesis account of creation have drawn the conclusion that while we believe in the essential truth -- God created the heavens and the earth -- the exact details are not addressed and, well, known but to God. And science is understood as a tool by which humanity can understand more of the details about God's creation, rather than something that makes God irrelevant. (Book plug: John Lennox, "Seven Days that Divide the World".)

Question #2 on the Flood is rather more of a yes/no question; scripture says it happened, so it is a point of faith. But again, the essential moral truth of a wrathful and just but merciful God is the important bit; arguing whether it is scientifically possible for a creator God to do anything that He pleases is...missing the point.

Which is more foolish: to act on faith, and humbly acknowledge the limits of our human reasonknowledge; or to claim that the answers of one's own human experience are the only correct ones, and that anyone who thinks differently is a fool? This applies to both the faithful and the faithless.

Posted by: Stu-22 at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (AiYlm)

118 I'm a Christian and I've never much found trouble with reconciling modern science with the Bible. -Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old? No. And I have never attended a church where this was taught. Despite the widespread belief that most Christians think this way, I've never met a single one who has. -Do you believe in a world-wide flood? No. I believe that the area where the writers of these tales/histories/legends lived had a flood, and to their limited view point it was the entire world as they knew it. -Do you deny the theory of evolution? I do not. I find it completely plausible that evolution is the mechanism that God chose for our species, and that Adam and Eve are an analogy by early people to explain humanity in the limited terms that they could understand at the time. For me, none of these things diminish the message of the holy texts. I feel as though I'm getting the message and some important insight into the sociology and psychology of ancient peoples. I suppose for me, it's not so much an issue of either/or. It's more of an issue of both from different viewpoints leading to essentially the same conclusion. And that has helped me in hard times and I'm grateful for both.

Posted by: Bobby K at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (AC6Mz)

119

Bible-college grad. Life-long conservative Christian. Have assistant pastored, led youth groups & small groups, volunteer for a number of conservative Christian ministries. Theology-loving, Apostle's Creed spouting five-point Calvinst.

The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

I neither know nor care about the Flood.

Man evolved from lower beings

People who are incapable of faith should refrain from lecturing others about it. It's like a blind man trying to tell me how to drive.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 02:01 PM (ES9R7)

120 Pride *is* the original sin: And ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. All man's trouble flows from that. *** http://bit.ly/1bPFJ9s

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 02:02 PM (DmNpO)

121 Awww, so cute that Divine Truth has a precise 20,000 year limit on it. No mainstream Christian Religion teaches, believes or practices that way, but okay.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 02:02 PM (ZshNr)

122 Atheists are stupid faggots. Stupid faggots who don't like it when you hurt their feelings. Later, all. God bless. :-)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at February 27, 2014 02:02 PM (4ElUX)

123

And as I said on the old thread, anyone who does not believe in the flood across all ancient civilizations, as Country Singer points out, is ignorant of the facts.

Every civilization, you read that right, documents a great flood. EVERY ONE OF THEM. Most talk about it wiping out everything except a good man that God had spared. You read that right.

I believe it was Babylon, although it could have been Sumeria or Assyria, absolutely no connection to Judea, where tablets were found, showing that the creation happened in 7 days, one tablet for each day.

I recently read the condensed history of all ancient civilizations. What is shocking is that so many stories of the Bible are referenced throughout these civilizations. And that Moses was rescued from the river by the most famous of all women in Egypt.

Amazing shit.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (tVTLU)

124 The Bible isn't the Koran. The difference is important. The Koran is said the be, actually be, the word of Allah. The Bible is said to be written by men inspired by the word of God. That allows for a fair amount of wiggle room in the interpretation department.

Posted by: naturalfake at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (0cMkb)

125 That your family may survive, lay a million eggs or give birth to one.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (V4CBV)

126 Alec Baldwin's goodbye was so full of "I" it was almost an Obama speech.

I may not be much, but I'm all I ever think about.

Posted by: Alex Baldbint at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (Dwehj)

127 38 Obama is actually a thoughtful, pragmatic man. Posted by: Seattle Slough at November 21, 2008 02:26 PM Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 27, 2014 05:49 PM (XKKNz) If he posted that, then he is a fool.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (bb5+k)

128 most behavior on the internet in arguments is, let us say, suboptimal LOL. Having been the repcipient of some some optimal behavior (not here) and seen others have horrendous stuff done to them, I'd say "suboptimal" was a mild way to put it

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (XyM/Y)

129

Posted by: Bobby K at February 27, 2014 06:01 PM (AC6Mz)

-------------------

^What he said.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 02:03 PM (ES9R7)

130 SS, let me ask you: Have you ever been in a Turkish prison? Do you like movies about gladiators? Have you ever seen an grown man naked?

Posted by: Judge Pug at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (6Nj7A)

131 It's worth pointing out that Intelligent Design doessn't deny evolution, quite the contrary.

Posted by: --- at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (MMC8r)

132 I thought Baldwin was leaving the country years ago. Does he need help with the packing?
Posted by: maddogg at February 27, 2014 06:01 PM (xWW96)

He might misunderstand the meaning of "packing" and call you a fag.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (FQEMb)

133 If there were a substantial human population living on the plains that are now 400' below the surface of the black sea, the few survivors would have told stories of the flood which ended their world for generation after generation. Posted by: Tom Servo at February 27, 2014 05:56 PM (8Fa5Z) *nods approvingly yet, solemnly*

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (H5iSA)

134 Love the post Ace but I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit with regards to being religious. Remember we (Jews, Christians, the Bible) revere Abraham as a devout man of God, obedient and faithful, before Judaism/Christianity/the Torah/Bible was thought of. If you accept there might be a God/Higher Power, then you need adhere to exactly zero beliefs or practices of organized religion to be as "righteous' as Abraham.

And next time you are at your most open minded, read some of the non religous objectors to macro evolution. It's simply not rational to understand the entire universe always goes from order to disorder accept in the evolution of life on Earth. Or to think that new, beneficial genetic information can arise from mutation; cannot happen.

Posted by: pashmr at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (3aNC4)

135 The science is settled.

Posted by: Al Gore at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (nsOJa)

136 Way off topic from the 13 book titles.

Richard Ira Â“DickÂ” Bong

There's a Museum to him in Superior Wis. on 53 I drive by a couple of times a year. Always good for a giggle after that long boring stretch from Eau Claire to the lake.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:04 PM (DL2i+)

137 Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 05:57 PM (bb5+k) Yeah the so called scientists who latch on this as crazy to believe really don't allow any nuance do they. But hey, as ace said, "tribes"

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (tablet) at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (hq5sb)

138 If any of you atheists knew anything about the bible , Jesus himself rejected much of the laws written in the Old Testament .

Wut?

Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (IoTdl)

139 The real question isn't your belief, it can you accept the social contract to live in a society whose rules were written under a Christian sun.

Posted by: Jean at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (4JkHl)

140 No, he didn't post that. I think that was just weft-cut loops interpretation of what he might say although I have never actually seen any political posts by SS so i don't know whether he's Pajama Boy or actually a conservative with a thing about Theism.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (XyM/Y)

141 How does this help my children?

Posted by: Mochelle at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (0FSuD)

142 I have no problem with the idea of God using evolution as one of the tools in His toolbox. As far as the rest...remember the Bible is the story of creation, told by the Creator, to a being so bereft in scientific knowledge that they did not understand thunder was caused by lightning.

How much time passed between "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth" and "And God said "Let there be light" and there was light." For that matter, how much time passed between "Let there be light" and "and there was light." I don't know, and neither do you, but I'm not arrogant enough to put God to my schedule.

Put it this way, when you were growing up, did your folks ever say "Cause God made it that way" or something to the effect, to incessant questions? I have no problem with God saying "Because I made it that way!" just to shut the questions up.

Â“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all of the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:4-7

And that's all I got to say about that.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (yh0zB)

143 If you can looks at the complexity of the human brain or things in nature and tell me that it was not intelligently designed then there is no point in that further debate. Posted by: Minnfidel

Stephen Meyer's book, Darwin's Doubt, does an outstanding job of explicating the flaws in current evolutionary theory. Do I buy all of it? No, at least not yet. But until the questions he raises are convincingly answered, it leaves me with some real food for thought.

My daughter once asked me why I, a scientist, go to church. It isn't because I'm totally sold on religion, but until someone can explain how the hell all of the order in the universe spontaneously arose when I can't even get a simple experiment to work, I won't be convinced that there is no God.

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (6TB1Z)

144 Seattle Slough not a troll? Okay, but Seattle Slough is a cocksucker, and that is a fact.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 02:05 PM (tyz5J)

145 Not my belief, but the 6,000 year stuff comes from adding up all the genealogies and ages of the people in the Old Testament.

Posted by: AMDG at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (t7OO0)

146 Look, someone disagreeing is not a troll SS argues by assertion, and that of the reductive variety. He implores you to work with him, on those things about which we agree. Which conveniently for his arguments is, by definition, determined by him. He has all the faults of an adolescent grown, presumably, into a man. Ignorance and arrogance are a heady mix but the reasoning man grows out of them. SS never will.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (QupBk)

147 Make an argument for why God doesn't exist, great. But when you say "if you are religious then you are therefore stupid", it shows you to be a charlatan. Posted by: dan-O at February 27, 2014 05:51 PM (D0bIN) You should see the list of famous scientists who were religious. Some of them rabidly so.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (bb5+k)

148 All those X begot Y, and lived to 120 years old.

Posted by: AMDG at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (t7OO0)

149 If Alex Baldwin let go of his ego what would be left?

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (RJMhd)

150 I have less of a problem with a great flood (or similar calamity) because science, I think, tells us that the human population was down to 4000 mating pairs at one point (please correct me if I'm wrong). What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (/FnUH)

151 Well said, Ace. The tribal nonsense that is becoming so prevalent is toxic and infuriating. My tribe is better than your tribe. Your tribe once wronged my tribe so I hate you. There is nothing a member of your tribe can do to redeem yourself short of joining my tribe. It's not a left or right issue- the right is guilty of this as well.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 02:06 PM (SY2Kh)

152 Late to thread because brother called and talked my ear off.

The three

Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old?

no

Do you believe in a world-wide flood?

That one is hard. There are flood stories in just about every cultured that we have a written history for. I think that the most probable explanation is a narrow strip of land that acted as a dike was overcome as one of those warm period the earth periodically goes through caused ocean levels to rise. When the land dike failed it partially flooded ancient Mesopotamia.

Do you deny the theory of evolution?

That one is a toss-up because the theory has never been completely proven because there are the "missing links" that scientists have never found. In short, it is still a theory. It is not a proof.

But here is the rub concerning the bible and "the literal word of God". These things were passed down by word of mouth for thousands of years. Who is to say that through the fault of man that inaccuracies have crept in? What I do consider the word of God is those things that tell you how to lead your life. Especially in the New Testament. Example - The Ten Commandments. New Testament the Golden Rule.

Those are the things you can take to the bank.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:07 PM (T2V/1)

153 Never invested a lot of time in the Bible. Fine book. But, it is just a collection of stories and fables and morality tales that could be written by anyone. God? Big "G" Christian God? Highly doubt it. There is a higher power of some kind responsible for all of this who/what that is none can possibly know at this point. All that said, I am huge believer in morality. It's what separates us from the animals. Well, that and porn.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 27, 2014 02:07 PM (gOoFi)

154 Don't climate alarmists believe in a world wide flood to come? If it is a possibility for the future, why not the past?

Posted by: Bob at February 27, 2014 02:07 PM (4NnCG)

155

Obama is actually a thoughtful, pragmatic man.

Posted by: Seattle Slough at November 21, 2008 02:26 PM

___________________

Wait, I thought he was an atheist, yet he believes in the messiah ?

Good writing Ace. I enjoyed this post.

Not as flowing as Peggy Noonan though /

Posted by: The Jackhole at February 27, 2014 02:07 PM (nTgAI)

156 131 It's worth pointing out that Intelligent Design doessn't deny evolution, quite the contrary. Posted by: --- at February 27, 2014 06:04 PM (MMC8r) Absolutely, but of course, that doesn't fit the "Destroy Christianity Because..." Workshop the little retards all attended. I hear they had juiceboxes....

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 27, 2014 02:07 PM (H5iSA)

157 Good post and I mostly agree with you but the examples SS used (age of Earth, belief in evolution) are pretty basic. I have lots of religious friends and they are very intelligent and reasonable people and nicer and, in truth, less guilty of the sin of vanity than my atheist friends, who are a bit evangelical about it. None of my religious friends has any problems with a 4+ billion year old Earth or the theory of evolution. Newton and Pascal were brilliant, but if they lived now and denied these basic facts they would indeed be fools.

Posted by: TrueNorth at February 27, 2014 02:07 PM (m5O+r)

158 The ending of an ice age or the theory of the Med breaking out into the Black Sea would seem like a global flood. Also, volcanoes or impacts causing massive tsunamis.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 02:08 PM (sOtz/)

159 Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (SY2Kh) You try to be above it all on every subject everyone must look like ants to you. And you look like a giant prick to us.

Posted by: Lars Kasch at February 27, 2014 02:09 PM (DAevm)

160 There are something like 5,000 religions in the world. Most of them have some variation of a 'great flood' as part of their history. It kinda makes sense as the end of the last Ice Age would have unleashed a gazillion gallons of water from glaciers back into the oceans and upstreams and all over the place. As far as Blaise Pascal, I'll defer to Vic, who I think helped him with his little computing machine.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron [/i] at February 27, 2014 02:09 PM (CnA98)

161 Ponder this question then, nonbelievers: Q: Why did the semen cross the road? A: I wore the wrong socks.

Posted by: naturalfake at February 27, 2014 02:09 PM (0cMkb)

162 Have been seeing blurbs about how "Christians" won't be happy with the new Noah movie

Posted by: oc joe at February 27, 2014 02:09 PM (hqVUe)

163 Even the Adam and Eve story, I believe, is a beautiful allegory of people who were nomadic gatherers living in small groups, eating the fruit of the land, who suddenly began to develop higher thoughts, and yearnings, and also agriculture. What happened when man had to leave the garden? He had to work hard all of his life, just to survive; no more wandering in the woods just eating whatever fell off the trees, without a care in the world. And where was this garden? Think of this Earth after the ice had melted - almost no people in it, new forests stretching for thousands of miles, herds of animals as far as the eye could see, and all of it fresh and new and untouched by any man's hand! 8,000 years ago, this entire planet was that unspoiled garden! And the ancient stories give to us just a hint of the memories our deep ancestors still had of those times.

Posted by: Tom Servo at February 27, 2014 02:09 PM (8Fa5Z)

164 No love for Pride opening for the Fall at the Salt Palace? None? You guys suck.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 02:09 PM (M/VgD)

165 I feel sad that Ace is going to Hell. I'm going miss him in the afterlife.

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (bRL1M)

166 What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

Huh?

Posted by: kittehs and puppehs that were on The Ark at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (Dwehj)

167 My hunch is that many Atheists have more of a problem with religion than they do God. Which in many ways is understandable as there's been many times throughout history that the "religious" people haven't exactly lived up to their billing. If someone actually believes that this complex world and all the complex process are here because of some big bang, then I actually pity them. I truly mean that.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (/o+xv)

168 There is no Dog.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (ndlFj)

169 my theory is this ... (as a lifelong atheist) atheists who argue with believers are simply jerkof*s trying to put someone down to feel better about their crappy faithless lives ... believers and atheists all end up at the same place in the end ... they both end up at an unanswerable question that basically is answered by ... I have faith ... Who or what created God ? Who or what create the matter that made up the big bang ? to the atheists/"scientists" who say the matter was just always there (great scientific answer) I would counter then God was just always there ... see, same place ... stalemate ...

Posted by: JeffC at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (TR6Cq)

170 I prefer to think the ancient aliens landed the first hookers on a shuttle.

Posted by: butternut at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (+8yte)

171 I don't have much to say except that Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (T0NGe)

172
I don't think God minds an atheist here and there extolling on the superiority of themselves.

Posted by: Sphynx at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (OZmbA)

173 no, let's be clear about what a troll is and what a dissident is. Seattle Slough does indeed engage, and will sit in the thread and argue with you.

He is not a troll. Not everyone who disagrees is a "troll."

Sure, he gets insulting, and I have insulted him in the above post. Insults are part of internet culture (alas).

But troll? No. He's been here for years, and he engages. He will likely engage here.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 05:42 PM (/FnUH)

He may not be a troll, but he is a coward. You will not see him posting here since you called him out for his crap.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 02:10 PM (LI48c)

174 As for the atheists, convert to Islam or ... Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at February 27, 2014 05:57 PM (e8kgV) What's so funny is that the atheists don't realize the only people protecting them from the Islamists are the Christians and Jews!

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (bb5+k)

175 And just to pick nits: I think it is MACRO-evolution (not ALL evolution) that Intelligent Designers don't agree with.

Posted by: SnowSun at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (Wxdhz)

176 " the theory of the Med breaking out into the Black Sea would seem like a global flood. " That one intrigues me. It would indeed, for a people so isolated and unknowing of the larger world around them, appear to them as if the whole "world" flooded. When, actually, no, just a little bit in a corner of the world did. Perception is reality.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (gOoFi)

177 Oops--Alec Baldwin.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (RJMhd)

178 122 Atheists are stupid faggots. Stupid faggots who don't like it when you hurt their feelings. Later, all. God bless. :-)Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at February 27, 2014 06:02 PM (4ElUX)
Fifteen yard penalty.

Posted by: NFL at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (kVfSG)

179 155 Obama is actually a thoughtful, pragmatic man.Posted by: Seattle Slough at November 21, 2008 02:26 PM Heh.....I just caught the date. Hey, it was a late night.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (H5iSA)

180 BTW, that "age of the earth" stuff was not the word of God. It was calculated by man using all those "begots" etc in the old Testament. There is nothing in the Bible that gives the age of the Earth.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (T2V/1)

181 A question, and an observation: Â Q: SS and Ace and most (if not all) of the posters keep casting this as a *Christian* issue. But some of us are Members of the Tribe - what about *our* take? Â O: While I happen to think that evolution makes sense, it is, after all, the *Theory* of Evolution. Are we *really* going to argue that "the science is settled?" Do we *really* want to go down that path?

Posted by: speedster1 at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (noB3y)

182 150 I have less of a problem with a great flood (or similar calamity) because science, I think, tells us that the human population was down to 4000 mating pairs at one point (please correct me if I'm wrong).

What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (/FnUH)

Alien spaceship. Duh.

Posted by: Some orange skinned guy with crazy hair on History at February 27, 2014 02:11 PM (LI48c)

183 It's not a left or right issue- the right is guilty of this as well. Posted by: Hollowpoint

So, you're a commie as well as a RINO? (joke)

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 02:12 PM (6TB1Z)

184 23 This is a ridiculous set of questions - only a very small subset of Christians believe in any of those things.

1) the age of the Earth - nowhere is any direct chronology laid out in the Bible, in fact the Hebrew word translated as "days" (the earth was created in 7 days) can just as easily be translated as "periods" or "epochs". Not to mention that the Bible itself says "a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years" - in other words, man's conceptions of time do not apply to God.

The so called 4000 whatever B.C. date for the beginning of the earth does not come from the Bible at all, but rather from an Archbishop Usher who lived about 400 years ago. That's it. Who was he? Some guy who was doing the equivalent of writing opinion posts on the internet of his day.

Not only do the vast majority of Christians believe that the Earth is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 billion years old, there is nothing at all in the bible or in Christian doctrine which contradicts that.

^^^^^
This.

This whole fairly new rage with atheists that you're either smart or an idiot about religion is really ridiculous, especially coming from the Folks Who Brought You Nuance.

Humans, in the aggregate, have a "god" shaped "hole" in their psyche. Most folks, if history is any judge, fill it with some kind of religious belief whether it's Jesus, Yahweh, Odin, Zeus, or fill in the blank.

This is why the Left is so ridiculous. They have a religious pantheon that rivals anything any group of illiterate Greek goat-herders every dreamed up. They can't see it because they're always gazing up at a pedestal with anime eyes at one of their gods or demi-gods.

Posted by: B at February 27, 2014 02:12 PM (6iEQd)

185 I'll just add a thing that reminds me of this discussion. there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:12 PM (nqBYe)

186 I don't think God minds an atheist here and there extolling on the superiority of themselves. Why do you assume an atheist feels superior? If anything, I get that from the religious more than the non-believer.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 02:12 PM (M/VgD)

187 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Posted by: cthulhu at February 27, 2014 02:12 PM (T1005)

188
Here's one good part of being a Liberal. I don't have to pretend that my ideology hasn't been on the wrong side of every social movement in modern history. So there is that.

Posted by: seattle slough at April 25, 2007

Not a troll, in the broad sense of the term.....

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (kdS6q)

189 Do you deny the theory of evolution?

Micro-evolution? I don't deny.
Macro-evolution? I'm not sure.
All things came from proteins arranged on crystalline formations and the "spark" of life just happened? This I deny.
Aliens seeded the Earth (Dawkins)? I deny this one too.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (A0glY)

190 I don't mind that he disagrees. He does get a bit insulting, but it's the Internet

Is he funny?

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (DL2i+)

191 Excellent. This is a great piece.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Ready to get Liquored Up at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (K+mtQ)

192 C.K. Chesterton.

"Atheism is indeed the most daring of all dogmas . . . for it is the assertion of a universal negative.Â”

"It is still bad taste to be an avowed atheist. But now it is equally bad taste to be an avowed Christian."

"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (baL2B)

193 "We stupidly look at the world with eyes full of greediness for proof that We Matter."

Atheists need proof that they matter. Deists believe EVERYONE matters. Pascal's wager, anyone?

Posted by: Owen Kellogg at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (njIoY)

194 I don't have much to say except that Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world. Posted by: AmishDude

Caucasian, please.

Posted by: BHO at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (6TB1Z)

195 I think it's safe to say the 6000 year old earth is a semi-fringe belief. Unfortunately they show up at our county Republican functions insisting that the 2nd amendment only applies to flint locks.

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (kxSZr)

196 garret , guess it depends where one hangs out.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:13 PM (nqBYe)

197 It was awful We had to eat these really hard biscuits for forty days and forty nights. Pttooey.

Posted by: kittehs and puppehs that were on The Ark at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (Dwehj)

198

I lost my faith as a child and got it back as a middle-aged adult after a series of implausible things happened that I could only attribute to a just and loving God making His presence felt in my life, His way of saying Yes I exist, Here I am, I love you, Believe. So I believe and try hard to be a good man, maybe balance the scales a little to make up for the man I was.

As a rule, I steer clear of creationist arguments because I happen to believe creation is still going on, for one thing, and for another do not believe evolution is contrary to religious faith. No matter. The point is that faith, to me, is a deeply personal thing. A former atheist, I can only shake my head and grimace a little at the more vociferous, obnoxious atheists and hope to God I wasn't like they are when I was one of them.

Posted by: troyriser at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (gNlvW)

199 I don't think "an" Atheist feels superior. I think the people who insists on calling Theists "fools " or go on about "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" do

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (XyM/Y)

200 Personally, I'd rather believe that life is shaped by the Gaian spirit than that it is shaped by nothing at all. At bottom I guess I want to believe in a prime mover, preferably Elohim, but at least something. I want to believe that my life, however squalid and ephemeral, has value to the eternal. But in some moments I think that's just unjustified pride in my existence. How could the universe go on without me? Tomorrow is not a workday, it's another Toby goes to work day. Another act in the play, and how can the play go on without it's lead actor?

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (QupBk)

201 If we do have to pick teams, though, I'm going with Crom.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (A0sHn)

202 You try to be above it all on every subject everyone must look like ants to you. Not true. Amoeba.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (SY2Kh)

203

#77 Not a troll.

"autocontrarian"

Pretty sure he was the person I coined that expression for.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (WvXvd)

204 >>186 I don't think God minds an atheist here and there extolling on the superiority of themselves.

Why do you assume an atheist feels superior? If anything, I get that from the religious more than the non-believer. Posted by: garrett

<<

Now, is that what I said?

Posted by: Sphynx at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (OZmbA)

205 I've heard that as well, that a "day" could mean an "aeon," which is fine, but some people do stick to a more literal meaning of "day." Since the Bible wasn't written last week, then they would be as wrong as those who try to define "regulated" in the 2nd AM as being government controlled. Words & meanings change.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 27, 2014 02:14 PM (d0Dmj)

206 100 I'm not very religious but if all we are is a happy accident of evolution and we're just talking monkey's flying on a huge ball of dirt through space, well that's a fucking depressing thought. I'm more concerned that our creator is sort of disinterested and one day he'll look over and realize we're not what he had intended. Posted by: Sgt. Fury at February 27, 2014 05:59 PM (DtRUv) Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Posted by: Conan the Barbarian at February 27, 2014 02:15 PM (bb5+k)

207

Ace pulls a vicious trick in this piece. Fucking awesome work Ace.

You see, the piece begins by stating that atheists, agnostics, whatever the fuck should shun tribalism and accept everyone's thoughts and opinions.

But then the trick is played, whereby he tells Seattle that it is his vanity that he must drop.

This point assumes that there is some reason to have vanity for being an atheist.

It is quite the other way around. Those who are really educated on science, literature, philosophy, and history, are at least agnostic to some extent.

It is the atheist who should be embarassed as the uneducated dolt. No your materialism is not intelligent. You have no basis in history or fact. And your idea is completely illogical.

The belief of no higher power than man is frankly ludicrous and one should be ashamed of itself. Now dolts can be dolts, and are free to spout gibberish, but an educated man should at least acknowledge there is something more than simple human reason and ego.

See Einstein.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:15 PM (tVTLU)

208 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after. Posted by: cthulhu at February 27, 2014 06:12 PM (T1005) The most nihilistic book in the Bible.

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:15 PM (bRL1M)

209 And I can bet you the American Atheists who wanted to come to CPAC sure did. But yes, there are people who project superiority on both sides.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:15 PM (XyM/Y)

210 I don't know if it's that 'we matter' but that with all the horrid , disgusting insanity , murder, mayhem, children being tortured ..hurt. etc There must be some sort of solace for them somewhere, That is why i try to be in search of a higher thing than this shit.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:15 PM (nqBYe)

211 I don't have much to say except that Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world.

Posted by: AmishDude

Newton was a sharp cookie, but Einstein was describing stuff that couldn't be measured yet.

Posted by: Jean at February 27, 2014 02:16 PM (4JkHl)

212 Any comments on Godel's proof of God's necessary existence?

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:16 PM (bRL1M)

213 I don't need to understand your beliefs to denounce and refute them!

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 02:17 PM (ZshNr)

214 alright i looked at we as a specific me. but i think mankind in general

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:17 PM (nqBYe)

215 201 If we do have to pick teams, though, I'm going with Crom.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 06:14 PM (A0sHn)

I'll go with Jo-bu. He likes Rum. And I have no need to hit a curve-ball.

Posted by: Some orange skinned guy with crazy hair on History at February 27, 2014 02:17 PM (LI48c)

216 but Einstein was describing stuff that couldn't be measured yet.

So was I.

Posted by: Anthony Weiner at February 27, 2014 02:17 PM (Dwehj)

217 My daughter once asked me why I, a scientist, go to church. It isn't because I'm totally sold on religion, but until someone can explain how the hell all of the order in the universe spontaneously arose when I can't even get a simple experiment to work, I won't be convinced that there is no God. Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 06:05 PM You don't need to be sold on "religion". Once you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ all the "religion" stuff is side chatter. Don't put too much stock into people, they will always let you down. It's why he came here in the first place. And as per your book recommendation I will have to pick it up. One of the things that Darwin wrote about that he struggled with was the human eye. Even he suggested that the complexity of it made him wonder about a higher power. TO which of course I would have said to him. Gee Chuck, ya' think?

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:17 PM (/o+xv)

218 off crazy sock.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 02:17 PM (LI48c)

219 dhimmi

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:18 PM (oAAzd)

220 It matters not when God created everything. Nobody excepts atheists focus on these details. If you think the point of Genesis is tell you how and when the Earth was created, then you are a dunce. The story of Genesis, like all other books in The Holy Bible, is about God and His relationship with Man. Pardon my french, but who gives a shit when the Earth was created?? It's fun to ponder these big questions once in a while, but they are not important. Another thing, there is nothing more arrogant than thinking you know how Anything was created, especially the Universe; including the atheists and the religious. And when your explanations on the origins of the Universe, which chiefly involves giant rocks banging into each other, pinpoint the year down the nearest million, then you have to admit that the couple of verses in Genesis are hardly worth mocking.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 02:18 PM (tyz5J)

221 So, you're a commie as well as a RINO? (joke) How dare a member of your caste address me directly? The great and powerful Establishment Tribe declares war on the Tru Con Tribe unless you pay us tribute of 13 cows and 4 of your finest virgins.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 02:18 PM (SY2Kh)

222 You know who's a fool? Any son of a bitch who reaches for a Pepsi when there a Coca Cola anywhere is proximity. You are a sorry, tasteless fool.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at February 27, 2014 02:18 PM (kUgpq)

223 Did someone say I don't exist?!?!!

Posted by: Barack Obama at February 27, 2014 02:18 PM (/FnUH)

224 "My hunch is that many Atheists have more of a problem with religion than they do God. Which in many ways is understandable as there's been many times throughout history that the "religious" people haven't exactly lived up to their billing" This. And also, an unwavering, unshakeable belief that they have Figured Something Out that is unique and special and that NO ONE ELSE IN THE HISTORY OF EVERYTHING has ever figured out, because their unique ability to be smarterer than we simpletons of faith haven't figured out. But we have. And we reject the answer as false.

Posted by: KevinC at February 27, 2014 02:18 PM (5Il8S)

225 >>> You know who's a fool? Any son of a bitch who reaches for a Pepsi when there a Coca Cola anywhere is proximity. You are a sorry, tasteless fool. Yup. Now that IS something worth staking your ego on. + 20.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (/FnUH)

226 There must be some sort of solace for them somewhere, That is why i try to be in search of a higher thing than this shit. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 06:15 PM (nqBYe) Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory in the heavens. 2 Through the praise of children and infants you have established a stronghold against your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger. 3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? 5 You have made them[d] a little lower than the angels[e] and crowned them[f] with glory and honor. 6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their[g] feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the animals of the wild, 8 the birds in the sky, and the fish in the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. 9 Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (bRL1M)

227 And where was this garden? Think of this Earth after the ice had melted - almost no people in it, new forests stretching for thousands of miles, herds of animals as far as the eye could see, and all of it fresh and new and untouched by any man's hand! 8,000 years ago, this entire planet was that unspoiled garden! "West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green." J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion, p.104 (Of Men).

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (QupBk)

228 could be something lesser to bring as g-dlike, as gaia, weather monster hiding under the bed, raping of the turf, politics is our g-d. crystal power persuasions.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (nqBYe)

229 IIRC even the Sumerians had an Adam and Eve type of story explaining the beginning of human kind, and many cultures around the world have a flood story. I would say that the Old Testament is more the narrative of the tribes of Israel after the creation of the man. I think if the original writers had tried adding in the previous 4.5 billion years of pre-history would have really bogged the narrative down and they would have lost their audience in the first fifty pages.

Posted by: LFW - Honorary Pointy-Eared Vulcan at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (sPO/s)

230

Going back to the flood issue. No, this doesn't come down from the ice ages. I'm talking about 4000 BC or so. EVERY SINGLE CIVILIZATION recorded it as occurring. There are fossil records, which are infallible right?, which shows layers of sediment at this time that would equal roughly 7 yrs of flooding.

Quite the coincidence, no?

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (tVTLU)

231 "Let me ask you: Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old? Do you believe in a world-wide flood? Do you deny the theory of evolution? " Isn't this the same BS liberal purity test administered to every conservative/republican candidate by the left lamestream media types? Followed up by the truly probing, "are you a witch?"

Posted by: Jen at February 27, 2014 02:19 PM (XkXzn)

232 Ace - one problem with your examples is that they lived in pretty dark times as far as science goes. But, in general, I agree with you.

I have been guilty myself of looking down at Young Earth types as fools, although I try not to post that way (unless I have had a few Brown Mumblers that evening!) I mostly don't care what someone believes, except when they try to force their unscientific opinions on an entire political party. I cannot defend those views, nor do I think being a Republican obligates me to do so. It has no bearing on political discourse, except that I would defend the rights of those to believe that.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at February 27, 2014 02:20 PM (b/lt+)

233 The great and powerful Establishment Tribe declares war on the Tru Con Tribe unless you pay us tribute of 13 cows and 4 of your finest virgins.

Could be both.

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 02:20 PM (6TB1Z)

234

I've always thought of the age of the earth and evolution questions as such.

I've always been under the assumption that large parts of genesis were from Moses's teachings. Now Moses was a great guy, moral, spiritual, a great leader. But he was not a scientist. Now, lets say God is showing him the creation of the earth up to that point. The big bang, the formation of the sun, then the earth, then the begining of life evolving up to that point. Now, not having a few billion years to chill on the mountain, so it's shown in fast forward. the 7 days of creation seems like a reasonably descriptive summary of this. It wasn't meant as a science text afterall, it was about God and the Hebrew's relationship to him.

Since I would be rambling if I expounded on that, I'll fast forward to Noah's Ark. Some interpret the description in the scripture (thats scripture, not engineering manual) that it means Pi is equal to 3. Ironically I've never met a christian who adamatly believes that Pi = 3, it's only athiests I hear it from, but anyhow, I can only think one thing. If you read the story of Noah's Ark, the great flood, Gods wrath towards the corrupt, mercy to the righteous, the rainbow covenant and all, and you come out of that saying "See! Pi = 3!", well, I think you missed the whole point.

Posted by: Carnivorus Herbavore at February 27, 2014 02:20 PM (mwDO5)

235 RC > Coke

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 02:20 PM (wnwiA)

236
What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (/FnUH)

What about Gilgamesh's boat?

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 02:20 PM (uCYHf)

237 What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (/FnUH)

Because it wasn't big enough for every species on the earth? It may have been big enough for the local species. Besides, I think the ark was more a test of faith than a last ditch attempt to save all the life on the earth.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (yh0zB)

238 The thing that atheists can never explain is the creation itself. Scientists exaplin it as the "big bang" which is another theory. But still what created the material that made the big bang (if that really happened)?

Something had to have created the initial material from nothing. Einstein said that can not happen from science. He believed in God. He is also the smartest man who ever lived in my opinion.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (T2V/1)

239

LFW:

The Sumerians, Elam, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Aryans/Indians, etc., etc., etc. Every major civilization has written this down. Many of these civilizations had no contact w/ Judea at all.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (tVTLU)

240 You're too nice, ace.
Being nice on the internet feels like it's against some law.
Also, Frank Black is great.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (1zhvB)

241 229 IIRC even the Sumerians had an Adam and Eve type of story explaining the beginning of human kind, and many cultures around the world have a flood story. I would say that the Old Testament is more the narrative of the tribes of Israel after the creation of the man. I think if the original writers had tried adding in the previous 4.5 billion years of pre-history would have really bogged the narrative down and they would have lost their audience in the first fifty pages. Posted by: LFW - Honorary Pointy-Eared Vulcan at February 27, 2014 06:19 PM (sPO/s) Stories (as CS Lewis points out), don't reproduce like people. They are changed, re-purposed and modified by their authors

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (bRL1M)

242 You know who's a fool? Any son of a bitch who reaches for a Pepsi when there a Coca Cola anywhere is proximity. You are a sorry, tasteless fool. Every time a Coca Cola is opened, a polar bear cries.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (d0Dmj)

243 What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

What about YESah's Ark

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at February 27, 2014 02:21 PM (e8kgV)

244 145 Not my belief, but the 6,000 year stuff comes from adding up all the genealogies and ages of the people in the Old Testament. Posted by: AMDG at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (t7OO0) Did they account for Methuselah living a thousand years or so?

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:22 PM (bb5+k)

245 The question I have regard to evolution that i have not had a sufficient answer is the evolution of tens of thousands of different life forms. If evolution is a product of your enviroment how did we get so many divergent life forms? How did multiple life forms develop in the same enviroment?

Posted by: Lars Kasch at February 27, 2014 02:22 PM (DAevm)

246

The great and powerful Establishment Tribe declares war on the Tru Con Tribe unless you pay us tribute of 13 cows and 4 of your finest virgins.

It's 3 virgins now. I didn't think you'd mind. Sally was... well, I'm sorry.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:22 PM (A0sHn)

247 "The evidence of a cataclysmic flood somewhere around the time of the great thaw from the last ice age seems pretty conclusive."

IOW, Glowbull Wormening has been around for a while.

Who knew there were SUV's back in the day?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 27, 2014 02:22 PM (DPkKe)

248 235 RC > Coke Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 06:20 PM (wnwiA) Original formula Dr. Pepper is the best

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:22 PM (bRL1M)

249 What Would Cthulhu Do?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 27, 2014 02:22 PM (V4CBV)

250 As an aside, I've always wondered if the age of Metheselah as documented in the Bible wasn't really someone giving Vic a hard time like we do here.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (uCYHf)

251

Country Singer:

BINGO!!!! Where does Gilgamesh go to try and find eternal life?? What represents this secret.

It is AMAZING that there are so many similarities b/w the beginning of life amongst completely UNCONNECTED civilizations.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (tVTLU)

252

Shame nothing in the Bible references a 20,000 year time period for the existence of the world. Anyone basing their atheism on the whole time period thing is a complete jackass and fool.

As far as evolution, man is still doing basically the same behavior from 2500 years ago, so that is not a ringing endorsement of evolution. However, the Bible again says nothing on evolution.

To me anyone who thinks lightning struck some pond scum and created life is a raving lunatic.

But that is just me.

Posted by: Dick Nixon at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (VrVBw)

253 Can't have an RC Cola w/o a Moonpie.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (T2V/1)

254 If it wasn't for Suicidal Tendencies I would have no use for Pepsi.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (wnwiA)

255 Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world.

Posted by: AmishDude

Not bloody likely.

Posted by: Gottfried Leibniz at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (QFxY5)

256 >>The thing that atheists can never explain is the creation itself. Scientists exaplin it as the "big bang" which is another theory. But still what created the material that made the big bang (if that really happened)?

Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:21 PM (T2V/1)

Causality gets real funky when you go back that far.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 02:23 PM (1zhvB)

257 But still what created the material that made the big bang (if that really happened)?

That's always my question. So you have this super-dense dot of material, and it explodes, casting matter in all directions simultaneously. Where'd the dot come from?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (A0glY)

258 What Would Cthulhu Do? Your belief in the Great Old One is of no importance to him. Your terror is.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (QupBk)

259 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much?

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (/o+xv)

260 What does it make you if you don't reach for either a Coke or a Pepsi. I haven't had soda in years. Oh, no I'm irretrievably doomed!!

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (XyM/Y)

261 The Bible is absolutely clear that Manhattan will be flooded due to Global Warming within the next 10 years!

Posted by: Al Gore at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (OZmbA)

262 What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark. Posted by: ace at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (/FnUH) Lot of Ark legend floating around out there in all that Archeology. It might not be true, but it sure has a lot of ancient people's saying it is. Don't know about the ark, but the Flood was a transition state from the Ice Age from what i've read.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (bb5+k)

263 255 Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world. Posted by: AmishDude Not bloody likely. Posted by: Gottfried Leibniz at February 27, 2014 06:23 PM (QFxY5) Step it up

Posted by: Aristotle at February 27, 2014 02:24 PM (bRL1M)

264 just accept we evolved from apes. I have seen some of you still scratching your ass publicly.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:25 PM (nqBYe)

265 Where'd the dot come from?

Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 06:24 PM (A0glY)

From the previous Big Bang that eventually collapsed on itself.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:25 PM (QFxY5)

266 188 Here's one good part of being a Liberal. I don't have to pretend that my ideology hasn't been on the wrong side of every social movement in modern history. So there is that. Posted by: seattle slough at April 25, 2007 *blinks eyes* ....or, so I was told by some Marxist professors.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 27, 2014 02:25 PM (H5iSA)

267 Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world. Posted by: AmishDude Not bloody likely. Posted by: Gottfried Leibniz at February 27, 2014 06:23 PM (QFxY5) Step it up Posted by: Aristotle at February 27, 2014 06:24 PM (bRL1M) Hold up, hold up...

Posted by: P-Diddy at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (wnwiA)

268 Are you not sopping wet?

Posted by: Russell Crowe's Noah Adressing the Rabble Outside the Ark at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (0cMkb)

269 What Would Cthulhu Do?

Your belief in the Great Old One is of no importance to him. Your terror is.

pffft. I crap bigger than him.

Posted by: General Zod at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (6TB1Z)

270 264 just accept we evolved from apes. I have seen some of you still scratching your ass publicly. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 06:25 PM (nqBYe) Anyone who goes into the bathroom is a service station finds it out the hard way

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (bRL1M)

271 250 As an aside, I've always wondered if the age of Metheselah as documented in the Bible wasn't really someone giving Vic a hard time like we do here.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 06:23 PM (uCYHf)

10,000 years from now someone will read Ace's blog and call me the Vic who live a 1,000 years and did a LOT of begotting. Either that are Duncan McCloud.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (T2V/1)

272 >>I have seen some of you still scratching your ass publicly. Posted by: willow<<

And then smelling it. That's proof right there.

Posted by: Sphynx at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (OZmbA)

273 Honest to God question for Christians: if it is OK to accept evolution and not the Genesis creation story (as some here seem to post), must I then still believe in Original Sin? (And if so, why?)

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (oAAzd)

274

>>> Let me ask you:
>>>Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old?
>>>Do you believe in a world-wide flood?
>>>Do you deny the theory of evolution?

>>>If the answer to any of these is "yes" you are a fool. If the answer is "no" you deny the Bible as divine truth.

I'll start out by saying that I would probably call myself agnostic on most days. That being said, what really annoys me is not people that believe they know the truth, but rather when those same people mock others for not agreeing with them about the unknown.

The Theory of Evolution is NOT settled science. It is right there in the name: theory. There certainly is evidence that leads many to believe it is what really happened, but it has not been proven. The Theory of Evolution, to cite just one problem, does not explain where that very first life form came from. There has been speculation, but nobody, not ever, has been able to create a single cell life form out of nonliving material. Yet, it somehow had to have happened for evolution to have occurred. Once you can create that single cell, then get back to me about what a fool I am.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 27, 2014 02:26 PM (IN7k+)

275 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much?

The militant ones will tell you it's because the world will be a better place when superstition is stamped out.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (A0glY)

276 A monkey supplied the glue.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (V4CBV)

277 Something had to have created the initial material from nothing. Einstein said that can not happen from science. He believed in God. He is also the smartest man who ever lived in my opinion. One interesting theory (and one that doesn't contradict Christianity in my view) is that the Universe has been created (big bang), expanded, then over the course of billions of years contracted into a singularity that exploded in another Big Bang over and over again. Also, before the "big bang", there was no matter or space, and no such thing as time. It just was.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (SY2Kh)

278 We are the universe made conscious. Whether by Divine hand or a fluke, that's pretty amazing.

Posted by: CAC at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (w4IDR)

279 I liked the Doonesberry on the cola wars. The focus was on the marketing since they both "taste like malted battery acid". Which offends you more, Pepsi marketing or Coke marketing?

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (kxSZr)

280 allegories , a telling of history in understandable terms Moishe attained what actual thing look at the times. when eating people and throwing children into volcanoes was a thing.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (nqBYe)

281 Bruce Cost's Ginger Ale.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (RJMhd)

282 261 The Bible is absolutely clear that Manhattan will be flooded due to Global Warming within the next 10 years! Posted by: Al Gore at February 27, 2014 06:24 PM (OZmbA) Manhattan, Kansas or Manhattan, NY?

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:27 PM (bRL1M)

283 Mike H which brings me to a thought. It rains alike on the just and unjust.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:28 PM (nqBYe)

284 If you can find it--drink it.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:28 PM (RJMhd)

285

Let me ask this question, and I've never really gotten an answer to this. I really am open to answers.

I believe that humankind is very young, certainly not older than 20k years in existence.

My question is this: How does one explain that for 100MM or 10MM years humans existed and all we did is chuck spears and chase mammoths off of cliffs and some rockin cave art, dates of which are unknown to honest scientists.

And yet, in the span of roughly 6k years, we developed a written language to landed on the moon.

To recap = 100MM years or so of chucking spears.

6k years we start to write and land on the fucking moon, AND COME BACK!

Does this not strike anyone else as odd? American fucking Indians still didn't invent the wheel until Euros showed up. THE WHEEL!!! This is quite the advance in thought and knowledge. Run a model on that, one in a million doc, one in a million. LOL

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:28 PM (tVTLU)

286 And then smelling it. That's proof right there.

Posted by: Sphynx at February 27, 2014 06:26 PM (OZmbA)

There is nowhere else on the internet that blends interesting philosophical and political discussions with poop jokes as well as AOSHQ.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:28 PM (QFxY5)

287 just accept we evolved from apes. Meh. I know I've been on ball teams with Australopithecus Robustus. I bet you could take Orrorin tugenensis, give a shave and suit and he could walk down the street with hardly a head turning.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:28 PM (QupBk)

288 278 We are the universe made conscious. Whether by Divine hand or a fluke, that's pretty amazing.

Posted by: CAC

Dude. Don't bogart that joint.

(no really, that's a very good thought)

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 02:28 PM (6TB1Z)

289 Who or what created God ? Who or what create the matter that made up the big bang ? Posted by: JeffC at February 27, 2014 06:10 PM (TR6Cq) Well, According to John Cramer, it's two big branes bumping into each other in higher dimensions. Look it up.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:29 PM (bb5+k)

290 Manhattan, Montana will flood in June.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 02:29 PM (wnwiA)

291 >>Every time a Coca Cola is opened, a polar bear cries.

If you'd said dies I'd pound a twelver before bed. Filthy ice rats.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at February 27, 2014 02:29 PM (kUgpq)

292 God? Holy hell, the owls in my empty lot are in mating mood and going crazy. If you've never heard a Barred Owl trying to get laid you are missing a wild time. That and you won't sleep much.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 02:29 PM (0FSuD)

293 Does this not strike anyone else as odd? American fucking Indians still didn't invent the wheel untilEuros showed up. THE WHEEL!!! This is quite the advance in thought and knowledge. Run a model on that, one in a million doc, one in a million. LOL Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 06:28 PM (tVTLU) ******* Aliens.

Posted by: Retired Canadian Minister of Defense at February 27, 2014 02:29 PM (RJMhd)

294 Grrr. What is up with quoting line returns in the comments? Sometimes, but not always, when you copy and paste a comment with a line return in it, is screws up the way line returns work in the whole comment. What exactly is the mechanism at play?

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 27, 2014 02:29 PM (IN7k+)

295 282 261 The Bible is absolutely clear that Manhattan will be flooded due to Global Warming within the next 10 years!
Posted by: Al Gore at February 27, 2014 06:24 PM (OZmbA)

Manhattan, Kansas or Manhattan, NY?

Since I left Tennessee I no longer consider flyover country relevant anyway.

Posted by: Al Gore at February 27, 2014 02:30 PM (OZmbA)

296 just accept we evolved from apes. I have seen some of you still scratching your ass publicly. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 06:25 PM (nqBYe) Anyone who goes into the bathroom is a service station finds it out the hard way Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:26 PM (bRL1M) lol,, ick, shudder.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:30 PM (nqBYe)

297 Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 06:28 PM (tVTLU)

Population density has something to do with it. And that is logarithmic. So the rapid increase in knowledge matches the steepness of the population graph.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:30 PM (QFxY5)

298 273 Honest to God question for Christians: if it is OK to accept evolution and not the Genesis creation story (as some here seem to post), must I then still believe in Original Sin? (And if so, why?) Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:26 PM (oAAzd) If you are a Fundamentalist you have to understand Genesis as literal. I am not, but does not mean I don't believe in miracles. God gave Adam His Spirit, Adam rejected that by his actions

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:30 PM (bRL1M)

299

Love the vanity angle, Ace. So fitting for our times.

My two cents: The Bible and other revealed scriptures are all textbooks teaching the truth, not the truth itself. And they use symbols, like most literature. So 7 days could represent 7 billion years or 4.5 B.

As for the existence of God, once you experience it it's not faith or belief- you know it.

Posted by: dano at February 27, 2014 02:30 PM (gwr6i)

300 What exactly is the mechanism at play?

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous<<

See Ampersands.

Posted by: Sphynx at February 27, 2014 02:31 PM (OZmbA)

301 Well ace,

I disagree with the notion that somehow the religious are quixotic. Perhaps those that wrote the Bible were so, but those that simply agree with it are simply accepting something someone else wrote as infallible. That takes no imagination. It takes no courage. It takes no intelligence. It's simply acceptance.

I think its telling that you have to go back to the early 19th (and 17th) century to find obvious non-fools who were also religious zealots. How about someone of the present era?

I confess not being familiar with Wilberforce but as for Pascal and Newton, they were not fools in their time, but had they been alive today and helping Ken Ham with his Creation Museum, yes, they would be fools. Unlike Ham and Hovind, Newton lived in an era before paleontology. They thought dinosaur fossils were literally the remains of dragons and giants. I get that. Geology was in its infancy.

But each decade that goes by, the harder it is to square the real world with that of the book of Genesis.

You pull no punches arguing other positions. Why are you afraid to do so when it comes to religious arguments? Is it because, as you mentioned, your party demands that you be religious to be a member in full standing?

Is it OK for me to believe in climate change? Or does that make me a fool?

I also disagree with the notion I'm in a tribe with other non-believers. I'm part of no atheist organizations. You and I likely share lots of non-beliefs - none of which make us part of a club.

For me, rejecting absolute authority is simply the starting point to an active dialogue. One where neither of us may hide behind a magic book. That's not an end point. It's simply the beginning of figuring out what is true. I'm not smart for not believing in God. I'm just not accepting something with no evidence or logic.

I'm not smart for not believing in horoscopes. I'm not smart for not believing in Santa. But those that do can be though of as fools, yes? If I told you I sold my house because my moon sign was in Capricorn, you'd think me a fool, yes? So why isn't that SDSU running back who just pulled himself out of the NFL Combine (so he could join my Seattle Seahawks of all teams (as a running back!)) also a fool? Isn't he a fool? Isn't that a foolish thing to do? We have three good running backs already!

Because if that's a foolish thing to do, then isn't any decision based upon religious revelation a foolish decision?

Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 02:31 PM (mCz8+)

302 Modern media atheists are dead sure that Religion causes all wars, and routinely express a complete ignorance of the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the name of atheism in the many Marxist-driven bloodbaths from Europe to Asia. Atheism appears as an "easy out" to escape the sins of Religious forbears, to those hold to the inherited guilt theory, but it puts one in a far worse collective camp historically.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 02:31 PM (ZshNr)

303 Perhaps G-d was the big Bang. and from that flowed all else. since we are spit ballin here.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:31 PM (nqBYe)

304 American f*****g Indians still didn't invent the wheel untilEuros showed up. THE WHEEL!!! This is quite the advance in thought and knowledge.

Your assignment is to go into your backyard, fashion a working wheel and axle from stone or wood with no tools except other rocks, and then come back and send us a picture of it employed in a wagon or other means of conveyance. Go ahead. We'll wait.

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 02:31 PM (6TB1Z)

305 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much? The militant ones will tell you it's because the world will be a better place when superstition is stamped out. Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 06:27 PM ...Then I ask them why? And of course they'll say that we fight over religion etc. And I always answer, do you think there'd be no war without a belief in God? Would we be kinder to eachother with none?

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:31 PM (/o+xv)

306 Well, According to John Cramer, it's two big branes bumping into each other in higher dimensions. Look it up. Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 06:29 PM (bb5+k) "Brain and brain, what is brain?"

Posted by: Kara at February 27, 2014 02:32 PM (bRL1M)

307 My senility is showing again, it was a Bloom County cartoon:

http://tinyurl.com/kvxwsxt

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at February 27, 2014 02:32 PM (kxSZr)

308 In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: Â“For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.Â” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:32 PM (nqBYe)

309 276 A monkey supplied the glue. Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 27, 2014 06:27 PM (V4CBV) GorillaÂ® Two part Epoxy! Shit is the bomb. There, the Science is settled. In the Library with the lead pipe.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 27, 2014 02:32 PM (H5iSA)

310 On second thought I'm going to go with worshipping Gozar. I understand Zuul likes to posess pretty hot chicks and if you play your cards right you might get to bang her before she turns into a dog.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 02:32 PM (LI48c)

311 What about the vanity of crazy right wingers who think they're right about everything and who hate leftists for no good reason?

{girds loins, puts on flak jacket, dons WWII helmet}

Posted by: Sphynx at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (OZmbA)

312 Orrorin tugenensis, give a shave and suit and he could walk down the street with hardly a head turning.

Posted by: toby928Â© at February 27, 2014 06:28 PM (QupBk)

Well, he'd be mighty short, and have really bad teeth, so I guess he's British.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (QFxY5)

313 My question is this: How does one explain that for 100MM or 10MM years humans existed and all we did is chuck spears and chase mammoths off of cliffs and some rockin cave art, dates of which are unknown to honest scientists. And yet, in the span of roughly 6k years, we developed a written language to landed on the moon. To recap = 100MM years or so of chucking spears. ********* Warfare. War (necessity) is the incubator --mother of invention. Marauding nomadic hordes spawned civilizations in answer to them--as a defense.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (RJMhd)

314 "Do you deny the theory of evolution?" Theory? No. Has it been proven yet?

Posted by: Buckeye Abroad at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (QpIfk)

315 Some suggested religions: Haruhiism Belldandy worship Church of Madoka

Posted by: 宗教の帽子 at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (XvHmy)

316 It was hard to masturbate to this thread, but I did.

Posted by: Jinglebales at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (Enuo5)

317 Hmmmm: Leopoldo LÃ³pez Mendoza letter to Pope Francis. It's apparently nice to have friends.

Posted by: Kirk at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (GBnWt)

318 305 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much? I don't think it's the belief as much as the believers, and how the push forced reverence of their belief into the public forum

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (oAAzd)

319 Ace, the ego as the original sin of all our sins (and unhappiness) is a philosophy thousands of years old. One I personally believe in, but if you choose to pursue it, there will be plenty of dead thinkers who would love to share their thoughts with you.

Posted by: Tommy V at February 27, 2014 02:33 PM (8tZ36)

320 275 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much?

The militant ones will tell you it's because the world will be a better place when superstition is stamped out.

Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 06:27 PM (A0glY)

And I shall then crush your skull like a clam on my tummeh!

Posted by: An Otter at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (LI48c)

321 This whole fairly new rage with atheists that you're either smart or an idiot about religion is really ridiculous, especially coming from the Folks Who Brought You Nuance. Posted by: B at February 27, 2014 06:12 PM (6iEQd) The Atheists are like one of those Pith helmeted explorers who having awed the cannibals by demonstrating a bic lighter, then proceed to show the cannibals that he isn't a god, and the fire wasn't created by magic. He doesn't realize that it is their belief in magic that is keeping him alive. I can't wait to see the Atheists dealing with the Islamists!

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (bb5+k)

322 You don't have to believe in original sin to be a Christian. The Eastern Orthodox-as fas as I understand it- don't We are all guilty of our own sins. Some Episcopal priest whose name esacpes me right now doesn't with. He believes in "Orignal Blessiing" That's the name of his book. I believe in original sin as an innate selfishness and a desire to make ourselves Gods.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (XyM/Y)

323 most behavior on the internet in arguments is, let us say, suboptimal

I saw suboptimal micro-aggression opening around the dinner table. Might have just been my brother asking for the ketchup.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (DL2i+)

324 I don't think it's the belief as much as the believers We harsh their mellow. Simple as that.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (QupBk)

325 I don't see where intelligent atheists and intelligent theists have any real disagreements here.

Yes, the earth is more than 20,000 years old.

Yes, a bunch of human settlements got flooded out at the end of the last ice age, particularly in the North Sea and the Black Sea areas.

Yes, evolution and natural selection works.

( And we atheists cannot prove that God, whatever that is, is not poking at natural selection when it is pleased to do so. No one can prove a negative. )

Posted by: Kristophr at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (c6N69)

326 Well said ace.

Posted by: Null at February 27, 2014 02:34 PM (0OrFt)

327 No love for Pride opening for the Fall at the Salt Palace? None?

You guys suck.

Vanity or missing /sarc ?

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (DL2i+)

328 @245 Many niches exist in any one environment. Organisms create niches for other organisms. There have been dozens of crocodile-like animals from completely different creatures for hundreds of millions of years. The key is animals coming down to get a drink. Without that, no 'crocs'. Symbiotic relationships abound as well. That's a part of it anyway.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (sOtz/)

329 I published this (in rawer form) as a response to Seattle Slough, who is not really a troll, but does come here to disagree. Beg to differ. Anyone who's spent significant time at Patterico knows SS is a troll. Sometimes it writes purty and all, but it's still a troll.

Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (PMGbu)

330 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much?

The militant ones will tell you it's because the world will be a better place when superstition is stamped out.
Posted by: bonhomme

Like the Settled Science of Global Warming, or Acid Rain, or Nuclear Winter, or Marxism, or ...

Posted by: Jean at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (4JkHl)

331 293 Does this not strike anyone else as odd? American fucking Indians still didn't invent the wheel untilEuros showed up. THE WHEEL!!! This is quite the advance in thought and knowledge. Run a model on that, one in a million doc, one in a million. LOL
Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 06:28 PM (tVTLU)

*******

Aliens.

Posted by: Retired Canadian Minister of Defense at February 27, 2014 06:29 PM (RJMhd)

I think there is nothing odd about it at all. They also did not have horses until the Spanish showed up. There is an old saying that necessity is the mother of invention. The Indians did not need "wheels" to live their hunter-gatherer lifestyle which was easily adapted to the climate of fauna of North America.

However horses, which were not indigenous to the Americas did suit them. The western tribes did adapt to the horses (which is where the Spanish mainly traveled.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (T2V/1)

332 D-Lamp:

An intelligent atheists deals with Moslems by subjecting them to canned sunshine, in the form of thermonuclear weapons.

Posted by: Kristophr at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (c6N69)

333 306 "Brain and brain, what is brain?"Posted by: Kara at February 27, 2014 06:32 PM (bRL1M)
Me

Posted by: Spock's brain at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (kVfSG)

334 "What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark. " Really? I don't think it's that crazy for a guy to build a boat and gather up the local species and his family.

Posted by: Common Core Rebels at February 27, 2014 02:35 PM (hFL/3)

335

So 1) aliens (which is at least plausible); 2) population density; and 3) it's hard to make a wheel.

To recap:

100,000,000 years = spear chucking

6,000 years = written language, philosophy, art, the gun, silk, the internet, flight, splitting the atom and SPACE TRAVEL

Very impressive. Guess that first wheel really got the ball rolling, pardon the pun.

But put away any prejudices, how is this explained. Of the three responses only aliens at least seem somewhat plausible.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (tVTLU)

336 I saw Gilgamesh open for the Sex Pistols back in back in '77.

Posted by: Anthony Weiner at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (Dwehj)

337 Thanks Ace. Well written as I understand better your position better.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (HVff2)

338 Because if that's a foolish thing to do, then isn't any decision based upon religious revelation a foolish decision? Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 06:31 PM (mCz8+) Describe a system of rational thought that can arise from chaos, how could it be trusted?

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (bRL1M)

339

To recap = 100MM years or so of chucking spears.

Well, that ain't nowhere's near accepted anthropology.

The basic story is australopithicus afarensis at about 5 mm years ago, and she wasn't very human. Lots of evolution to humanish things appearing about 1mm years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens (that's us) maybe 180 - 200k years ago. Lots of advanced activity, language, art, etc. 50+ k years ago. Learning agriculture and settling down permanent like, 10k years ago.

And, yeah, from a motorized kite to the moon in 66 years. We can do some cool shit. I can get naked selfies from my girlfriend in the palm of my hand now, and they travel through the fucking air.

Fortunately anthropology is not "settled science". It's being re-written all the time. I'm fascinated by all the intermingling that seems to have gone on among human and proto-human species. We definitely boned Neanderthals. That hobbit girl they found on Flores is from only 12k years ago, and she might be a dwarf homo erectus. We've been running into critters like us pretty recently in the scheme of things.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (A0sHn)

340 Honest to God question for Christians: if it is OK to accept evolution and not the Genesis creation story (as some here seem to post), must I then still believe in Original Sin? (And if so, why?) Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:26 PM ..............You're assuming they are mutually exclusive. As far as original sin, someone had to be the first.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (/o+xv)

341 Thoughtfully written and executed, Ace. While we share differing views about life, the universe, and everything, I appreciate your concise approach to the topic matter.

Posted by: itzWicks at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (kjkiL)

342 What about the vanity of crazy right wingers who think they're right about everything and who hate leftists for no good reason? They piss off those of us who are. And the reasons are sound.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (d0Dmj)

343 >>My question is this: How does one explain that for 100MM or 10MM years humans existed and all we did is chuck spears and chase mammoths off of cliffs and some rockin cave art, dates of which are unknown to honest scientists.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 06:28 PM (tVTLU)

Everyone who's told you that evolution is some constant, gradual process was misinformed or lying. It occurs in leaps and spurts in between millions of years of little or no change. Things like massive environmental shifts, the introduction of a new competitor species, and plagues cause evolution. Natural selection always occurs, but it doesn't have the opportunity to exert a lot of force on things outside of special circumstances or really, really long periods of time.

Which is kind of what happened with man. I'm not up to date on the current theory on who started agriculture and when/why, but once somebody did their tribe reaped the benefits and their neighbors had no choice but to copy them or be conquered. Agriculture caused civilization in increasingly complex forms, and you know the rest.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 02:36 PM (1zhvB)

344 Something had to have created the initial material from nothing. The initial material appears to have been some form of pure energy in the form of sub-atomic particles. Which then formed into atoms of Hydrogen -- coincidentally number one on the periodic table. From Hydrogen and fusion you can create every other part of the periodic table inside of a star. Scientists all over the planet have built particle accelerators the size of cities to attempt to discern the properties of sub-atomic particles to recreate the particle to atom mystery. Some latest theory is that a particle accelerator the size of our solar system could 'theoretically' create enough energy to create a new 'Big Bang'. Now the reason I'm hashing all this out is that only 100 years ago we were building tiny little cars and barely flying airplanes. Our tiny little brains have progressed immensely in little over a century. But some think we are the smartest thing in the Universe. Yet in some future period we could recreate the Big Bang on some scale and create another Universe. Becoming near God-like. But there could not be a God, because we are so smart. Or something.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron [/i] at February 27, 2014 02:37 PM (CnA98)

345 Let's take another approach to Seattle Slough's questions, a more psychological approach to his motives, if you will. His questions, clearly, serve one purpose: To label some people who do not adhere to his beliefs and views as "fools." Seattle Slough, like the rest of his Leftist peers, are passive-aggressive bullies. Slough wants you to choose: Stick to your beliefs or be an outcast. I don't know nor care when the Earth was formed, but I do know this: Someday, probably on that fateful day, we all answers will be revealed to us in one way or another. I also know that this world is big enough to accommodate everyone's beliefs, not just the cocksucker's like Seattle Slough's beliefs. It is not up to Seattle Slough or his bloody ilk to decide whose beliefs are valid or invalid, or whose gets to be the In group. Fuck you, Seattle Slough, and pass that message onto all your cronies.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 02:37 PM (tyz5J)

346 What exactly is the mechanism at play?

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 27, 2014 06:29 PM (IN7k+)

Pixy works in mysterious ways.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 02:37 PM (uCYHf)

347 Orwell talked about the atheists "who didn't so much disbelieve in God as personally dislike him." There's a lot of those around today.

Posted by: rrpjr at February 27, 2014 02:37 PM (s/yC1)

348 All you need to do is ask an atheist why something they don't believe in, bothers them so much?

It's especially mean to ask them to go proclaim their wisdom in Islamic societies.

Posted by: Jean at February 27, 2014 02:37 PM (4JkHl)

349 I'm agnostic. Except about Kate Upton. http://wallpaperzone.biz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Kate-Upton.jpg

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at February 27, 2014 02:37 PM (pQXbd)

350 50 To my knowledge, the Bible makes no claims as to the age of the earth. It's based on one's interpretation of the Creation story. I have never seen any conflict between my belief in Christ and his teachings, and the concepts of evolution, or the pursuit of scientific understanding. I dearly wish more Christians would spend their efforts reflecting the love and joy of a Christ-led life, rather than criticizing the lives of others, or attempting to rebrand the Bible into a science textbook. The Bible has a critical spiritual role to reveal the nature of God, and to provide wisdom and guidance to believers into a science textbook. People become so caught up in arguments over one early passage that much of its major message is completely ignored. A close member of my family is a neuroscientist and a Christian. He's expressed how greater research into this growing field has turned around many former agnostic/ atheists in the science fields. His own work has brought a deeper appreciation of the evidence of God within nature and the human evolution. I'm an empiricist, but recognize miracles or what I perceive as the intervention of God, happened throughout my life as well as in Biblical stories. Of that, I make no apologies to anyone.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 02:38 PM (OU1Hh)

351 What I've got a real problem with is Noah's Ark.

Some lucky guy rides a log-jam ashore with his family and some live-stock, add a couple of dozen generations of campfire BS and voila sailors by the cubit.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:38 PM (DL2i+)

352 Haven't read the post, but I read the first line (in rawer) form as RAAAWWWWRRRRR not raw-er. I like it better that way. Now off to actually read the post. And I'm sure a new post will come forthwith.

Posted by: DangerGirl at February 27, 2014 02:38 PM (GrtrJ)

353 I disagree with the notion that somehow the religious are quixotic. Perhaps those that wrote the Bible were so, but those that simply agree with it are simply accepting something someone else wrote as infallible. That takes no imagination. It takes no courage. It takes no intelligence. It's simply acceptance. I think its telling that you have to go back to the early 19th (and 17th) century to find obvious non-fools who were also religious zealots. How about someone of the present era? non-believers. I'm part of no atheist organizations. You and I likely share lots of non-beliefs - none of which make us part of a club. For me, rejecting absolute authority is simply the decision? Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 06:31 PM (mCz8+) There are many commentaries on Torah etc. Understanding meaning or allegories . Talmud Heard of Rashi? Mechon meme etc.. many scholars and thousands of years of study these are not ignorant ramblings they are attempts with our terms, in real terms, and moments with knowledge and in the times we are in we have to find a meaning . These are people that read and attempt to find as we say truthiness and meaning

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:39 PM (nqBYe)

354 I agree with most of what was posted above, insofar as I deny that Christians should take the account of creation as literal. Faith does not ask us to deny the plain facts, and the fossil record is not a hoax (though some of the interpretation thereof is pretty questionable). That said, I maintain the contention that man is a uniquely made creature. Maybe not literally from dust bunnies; but there was a specific point that man came to be. Man was made intentionally as distinct from all other forms of animals and was given "the imagine of God" as a basic part of his nature. Part of that was the ability to choose. Man fell from his original, correct state as a result of a rebellious choice. Thus, while we retain our original specialness it is tainted by a new nature that is selfish, proud, and cruel. And that is why non-religious folks can still tell right from wrong, why man is a self destructive monster at times in ways that no other animal can be, and why man is capable of heroism and self sacrifice when it makes no evolutionary sense to be so. The divine and demonic war within us, and conformation to our final, eternal state remains unfinished until our physical deaths.

Posted by: Reactionary at February 27, 2014 02:39 PM (jfeoD)

355 Maybe "original sin" is that innate racism, sense of superiority, homophobia that so many of the resident atheists and agnostics seem at such a loss to explain when they find it in themselves. Maybe.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 02:39 PM (ZshNr)

356 Some lucky guy rides a log-jam ashore with his family and some live-stock, add a couple of dozen generations of campfire BS and voila sailors by the cubit. Posted by: DaveA at February 27, 2014 06:38 PM (DL2i+) None of you youngsters will remember this but Bill Cosby did a great skit about Noah and the Ark

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:39 PM (bRL1M)

357 It occurs in leaps and spurts in between millions of years of little or no change.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 06:36 PM (1zhvB)

"Punctuated Equilibrium."

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:39 PM (QFxY5)

358 I, personally, as a Catholic, trust that over the course of about 2,000 years, enough smart folks have determined the truth of the Bible and of Catholicism for me to trust it. I couldn't possibly come close to the intelligence of Aquinas, or Augustine, or even B16. Not to mention folks like Mother Teresa, whose genius is of a different nature entirely.

Why some little peckerhead troll would think he/she were smarter than those folks, I have no idea, but you can pretty well be sure whatever convinced him/her involved a great deal of sin and self interest.

Posted by: tcn at February 27, 2014 02:40 PM (fwcEs)

359 It takes no courage. It takes no intelligence. It's simply acceptance. Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 06:31 PM ..........It takes no courage to believe in something that can get you killed in other countries for just possessing?

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:40 PM (/o+xv)

360 So, ace is the anti-Christ. Got it.

Posted by: CPAC Welcome Committee at February 27, 2014 02:40 PM (Cs2tJ)

361 I don't know about any of that, but if one more person publicly rapes the word "theory," Imma start bleeding from my eyes.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 02:41 PM (qyfb5)

362 None of you youngsters will remember this but Bill Cosby did a great skit about Noah and the Ark

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:39 PM (bRL1M)

"Rrrriiiiiight."

Posted by: tcn at February 27, 2014 02:41 PM (fwcEs)

363 111 The argument is that morality without God is subjective, not that morality can't exist without God. The believer says 'theft and murder are wrong because God says they are, and He makes the rules.' A non-believer can believe that theft and murder are wrong, but that's just his own subjective viewpoint. Without God (or some other higher power to appeal to) the person who says theft and murder are wrong doesn't have even better claim to be right than the person who says theft and murder are okay.

Posted by: Paul at February 27, 2014 02:41 PM (GTyB/)

364 Catholic teaching honors science and realizes that faith is a different realm. Catholic teaching on the age of the earth - The Catholic Church leaves questions such as the literal age of the world to science. While it is theoretically possible that the earth is young, modern science indicates that the likelihood is that the earth is much older. Should science prove the earth to be millions of years old, the Church would not have any problem accepting such a determination. On Noah - Details of the flood (e.g. its coverage, when it took place) are questions for science, not theology. And as someone pointed out above, does not dismiss evolution, while maintaining that God is the author of all life. Thanks for this post. Keep calling out tribalism when you see it.

Posted by: duke at February 27, 2014 02:41 PM (d3clc)

365 You are desperately searching for affirmation of self in trivial proofs. I believe this, I don't believe that; ergo, I'm superior. You might as well be basing your ego upon your favorite ice cream flavor. Reminds me of a joke Jerry Seinfeld told once .. I was outside of Madison Square Garden one night and a bunch of Ranger fans come pouring out yelling WE WON!! I said to them; "No, THEY won, YOU watched"

Posted by: kbdabear at February 27, 2014 02:41 PM (aTXUx)

366 355 Maybe "original sin" is that innate racism, sense of superiority, homophobia that so many of the resident atheists and agnostics seem at such a loss to explain when they find it in themselves. Maybe. I guess God just put it in 'em

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:41 PM (oAAzd)

367 Funny prank video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRIgmKGDqFM

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 27, 2014 02:42 PM (ZPrif)

368 360 So, ace is the anti-Christ. Got it. Posted by: CPAC Welcome Committee at February 27, 2014 06:40 PM (Cs2tJ) I'd check 1600 Pennsylvania Ave first

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:42 PM (bRL1M)

369 Theory was askin' for it, Merovign. Leaving that y all exposed...

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at February 27, 2014 02:42 PM (rhyMB)

370 That's always my question. So you have this super-dense dot of material, and it explodes, casting matter in all directions simultaneously. Where'd the dot come from? Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 06:24 PM (A0glY) Like I said, two big branes bumping into each other in a higher dimension(s).

http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw115.html

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:43 PM (bb5+k)

371 313 War (necessity) is the incubator --mother of invention. Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 06:33 PM (RJMhd)
The Third Man cuckoo clock speech :

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

Posted by: Spock's brain at February 27, 2014 02:43 PM (kVfSG)

372 The initial material appears to have been some form of pure energy in the form of sub-atomic particles. Which then formed into atoms of Hydrogen -- coincidentally number one on the periodic table. From Hydrogen and fusion you can create every other part of the periodic table inside of a star.

What created the first sub-atomic particle? Which are not pure energy BTW. They do have mass even if in an incredibly small amount. There is binding energy associated with the atoms and etc.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:43 PM (T2V/1)

373 anyways. Hillel had said nevermind, it's just the ramblings of some religious guy.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:43 PM (nqBYe)

374 It never gets hard to "square" science with the critical few sentences in the Book of Genesis. The more I read about modern physics the more interesting it gets. Things like "dividing the light from the dark" or "moving on the waters" hint at advanced modern scientific theories of the universe. But only hint at because it is tough to summarize The Universe in less than a page.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 02:43 PM (sOtz/)

375 I'd check 1600 Pennsylvania Ave first The Son of Perdition will be smarter.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:43 PM (QupBk)

376

Frumious, if the law of evolution is all about natural selection and smarter species surviving, then how come we still have apes and no neandarthals??

Why aren't new neandarthals continuing to spring up from apes? I agree that civilization and other things will accelerate things.

I disagree that even accepting that homosapiens were around for 200,000 years and in the last 6k man they really got after it. LOL

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (tVTLU)

377 prescient11 Actually my aliens response was sort of a joke, my more serious answer is warfare. Conflict--that would or could explain the acceleration you are observing. When man is struggling to survive and trying and testing in the environment or testing ground of warfare--that acts as a propellant for advancement in invention.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (RJMhd)

378 I think its telling that you have to go back to the early 19th (and 17th) century to find obvious non-fools who were also religious zealots. How about someone of the present era?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Eyring

I'm not smart for not believing in God. I'm just not accepting something with no evidence or logic.

You accept the negative, which is illogical.

"There is no evidence for x
Therefore !x" is a logical fallacy.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (P7Wsr)

379 It's a Test Drive 2 prank, with Jeff Gordon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRIgmKGDqFM

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (ZPrif)

380 "If you don't believe in God, you're probably a fag."

----Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (hn70M)

381 Where did Pebbles come from? Fred banged his rocks on Wilma's rocks and they made Pebbles.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (tyz5J)

382 Merovign, hey, hey waves arms, tries to catch you and give a hug.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:44 PM (nqBYe)

383 Fred Hoyle was a Nobel Prize winning physicist. He did not believe in "the theory of evolution", at least if by "theory of evolution" you mean neo-Darwinism. He didn't just doubt evolution, he wrote a book about it, developed equations, etc., and even offered an alternative hypothesis.

He was also an atheist.

Was he a fool for not believing in the theory of evolution? Do you really think you know more about evolution than Fred Hoyle did?

Posted by: Randall Hoven at February 27, 2014 02:45 PM (IgY0s)

384 "Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old? Do you believe in a world-wide flood? Do you deny the theory of evolution?" As to the first two, these represent the kind of science that is not as scientific as most. They're educated guesses, and I'd give them more consideration than a juvenile story dreamed up by Bronze-Age shepherds, but unless you can borrow the Dr Who TARDIS, you can't ever really say for sure. Evolution? It's put to use every day. You can find excuses for not extrapolating that back to the development of people, and demand we drag out the TARDIS again, but that would seem more of a formality. Ace, of course it's foolish to believe silly ancient stories that were obviously dreamed up for obvious reasons. I think what you're really trying to say is that just because you do or say something foolish, that it does not make you a complete fool. Nobody's right about everything - even Newton - and chances are that some of the things they're wrong about are downright foolish. Believing two or three foolish things not not make you a fool, it just makes you human. By the same token, when "Seattle" says "then you are a fool", it's probably unfair to take him/her too literally.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 02:45 PM (saDM3)

385 370 313 War (necessity) is the incubator --mother of invention. Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 06:33 PM (RJMhd) The Third Man cuckoo clock speech : Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy forthirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Posted by: Spock's brain at February 27, 2014 06:43 PM (kVfSG) ************** I love that. Mais add chocolate.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:45 PM (RJMhd)

386 Ace, you say you don't believe in God, and yet you then describe vanity as a "sin." If there's no God, how can there be sin? And what difference does sinning make, anyway?

Posted by: Average Jen at February 27, 2014 02:45 PM (1WdJ6)

387 374 I'd check 1600 Pennsylvania Ave first The Son of Perdition will be smarter. Posted by: toby928Â© at February 27, 2014 06:43 PM (QupBk) I meant, check the Chief of Staff's office, sitting behind the desk

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:45 PM (bRL1M)

388 The militant ones will tell you it's because the world will be a better place when superstition is stamped out. Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 06:27 PM (A0glY) It will be a place of fire, death, destruction and pain.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:45 PM (bb5+k)

389 OK, now after reading I'll put forth something that has already been said. Saying "yes" or "no" to any of the statements does not result in a black or white result (fool/denier of the bible). For instance, I do believe in evolution. However, I believe that there is some sort of combination of creation and evolution, and therefore don't deny the Bible. I believe there have been primitive forms of creatures/plants put on this earth by God that have evolved into their current form. I don't understand the insistence by some people on both sides that it *must* be black and white.

Posted by: DangerGirl at February 27, 2014 02:46 PM (GrtrJ)

390 10,000 years from now someone will read Ace's blog and call me the Vic who live a 1,000 years and did a LOT of begotting. Either that are Duncan McCloud.

Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:26 PM (T2V/1)

Maybe misbegotting would be more accurate around here.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 02:46 PM (yh0zB)

391 It will be a place of fire, death, destruction and pain. Ah, the human condition.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:46 PM (QupBk)

392 How about someone of the present era? Billy Graham and the Pope come to mind.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 02:46 PM (0FSuD)

393 Actually to be more correct--*milk* chocolate.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:46 PM (RJMhd)

394 356None of you youngsters will remember this but Bill Cosby did a great skit about Noah and the ArkPosted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:39 PM (bRL1M)
How long can you tread water?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 27, 2014 02:46 PM (kVfSG)

395

Paul:

I agree 100%. That is the source of all wisdom. No matter how awesome Liebnitz's structures were. They all fail for the same reason.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:47 PM (tVTLU)

396 Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:43 PM (T2V/1)

God.

See: Thomas Aquinas, Argument From Contingency

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:47 PM (QFxY5)

397 It will be a place of fire, death, destruction and pain. Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 06:45 PM (bb5+k) Hate to break it to you, no get out of here alive.

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:47 PM (bRL1M)

398 Off to raid something--most likely the fridge.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 02:47 PM (RJMhd)

399 381 Merovign, hey, hey waves arms, tries to catch you and give a hug. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 06:44 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) {{Hugs willow}} I saw you but I didn't say anything 'cause I was *shy*!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 02:47 PM (qyfb5)

400 excuse me while I please myself...

Posted by: butternut at February 27, 2014 02:48 PM (+8yte)

401 I'm not a youngster. I remember that Bill Cosby skit and on the other side of the record was a story about kids jumping up and down on the bed and breaking it and claiming some man came in through the window and did it. There was also mention of a "pudding sheriff". Good clean fun and funny.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:48 PM (XyM/Y)

402 Off to raid something--most likely the fridge. Get in the spirit, raid your neighbor's fridge.

Posted by: toby928© at February 27, 2014 02:48 PM (QupBk)

403 388 However, I believe that there is some sort of combination of creation and evolution, Posted by: DangerGirl at February 27, 2014 06:46 PM (GrtrJ)
Crevolution

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 27, 2014 02:48 PM (kVfSG)

404 How did multiple life forms develop in the same enviroment? Posted by: Lars Kasch at February 27, 2014 06:22 PM (DAevm)

Drop a box of elbow macaroni on a patterned tile floor and see how many different things you can pick out in a that cloud looks like a clown game.

But 1st how much for the hashtag? I can get you a cardboard membership but no ampersands.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:48 PM (DL2i+)

405 302 Modern media atheists are dead sure that Religion causes all wars, and routinely express a complete ignorance of the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the name of atheism in the many Marxist-driven bloodbaths from Europe to Asia. Atheism appears as an "easy out" to escape the sins of Religious forbears, to those hold to the inherited guilt theory, but it puts one in a far worse collective camp historically. Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 06:31 PM (ZshNr) Only Islam has a higher body count than does atheism.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:48 PM (bb5+k)

406 367 360 So, ace is the anti-Christ. Got it. Posted by: CPAC Welcome Committee at February 27, 2014 06:40 PM (Cs2tJ) No, he's an ewok. The Anti-Christ will not be an ewok. See the bible somewhere for that.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 02:49 PM (0FSuD)

407

>> but as for Pascal and Newton, they were not fools in their time, but had they been alive today and helping Ken Ham with his Creation Museum, yes, they would be fools.

STRAWMAN DOWN! STRAWMAN DOWN!

Posted by: Dave in Texas at February 27, 2014 02:49 PM (WvXvd)

408 The cuckoo clock isn't Swiss.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 27, 2014 02:49 PM (JpgTb)

409 I didn't say anything 'cause I was *shy*! Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 27, 2014 06:47 PM (qyfb5) har, hugs back. ace has entered interesting topics today. i always wondered if this forum could do it in a polite way. i'm pretty positive in it. and how's the bod? better i hope?

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:49 PM (nqBYe)

410 The guy's an idiot. "...if you don't believe them, you deny the Bible as divine truth." There's a difference between fact and truth. The play Hamlet is Truth. It didn't factually happen.

Posted by: RKae at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (kvKl6)

411 Wow, smart military blogs takes on religion and no one says shit about Mormons and the seeer glasses. I guess we have mellowed out.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (0FSuD)

412 The great flood is actually pretty fucking interesting. There is some evidence for it. I have always thought it was probably the melting glaciers about 12,000 to 15,000 years ago. It stretches across all worldwide cultures. That would make sense for a sudden increase in ocean levels.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (9kycs)

413 >>I have never once heard anyone say anything one way or another close to the "young earth" theory. There seem to be quite a few of you saying similar things. I certainly have met plenty of people who believe that, screen things that their kids see, have creation-based science books, etc.

Posted by: Mama AJ at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (SUKHu)

414 Look it up. Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 06:29 PM (bb5+k) "Brain and brain, what is brain?" Posted by: Kara at February 27, 2014 06:32 PM (bRL1M) It's actually spelled "brane" and John Cramer can explain it better than can I. http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw115.html

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (bb5+k)

415 The real question I always have for Atheists is why they desire to take away someone else's faith. Christians evangelize because we care about the eternal souls of our fellow man. Atheists don't have that motivation. Evangelical atheists, at the very least, are taking away the comfort of religion from those they convert. If they're wrong, they're taking away eternal salvation. All for what? So they don't have to listen to Great Aunt Melinda talk about Jesus? Seems pretty crappy.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (hFL/3)

416

Frumious, if the law of evolution is all about natural selection and smarter species surviving, then how come we still have apes and no neandarthals??

Lots of dead ends on the human family tree. Remember it took 5 mm years to get from a. afarensis to Neanderthal, it's not like apes are spitting out little humanlets on a regular basis.

There's also no more homo robustus, homo erectus, homo habilis, homo ergaster, etc. Also no more sabre toothed cats, mastadons or passenger pigeons.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:50 PM (A0sHn)

417 Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 06:48 PM (XyM/Y)

I saw Bill Cosby live, sometime in the mid 1980s.

Not a single curse, not a single sexual reference, not one ounce of ribald humor, and I thought that I was going to break a rib I was laughing so hard.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:51 PM (QFxY5)

418 62. "And that's just normal massive floods, not the uber-enormous ones which there is some decent evidence have occurred."

OK, I'll bite: where did all that water go?

Posted by: Artie Pshaw at February 27, 2014 02:51 PM (BYZzw)

419 Those who claim that science trumps the existence of a deity base their assertions on what scientists know or theorize based on current science forget that no science is never "settled" A god who would exist would do so in a plane or universe far beyond what today's science could comprehend It would be like asking Copernicus to explain a Cray supercomputer or design the Space Shuttle It's vanity and hubris to think that what exists based on science as we know it today. What will be discovered centuries from now will make a joke out of today's best scientific minds

Posted by: kbdabear at February 27, 2014 02:52 PM (aTXUx)

420 395 God.

See: Thomas Aquinas, Argument From Contingency

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 06:47 PM (QFxY5)

That was my point. Atheists have yet to explain that.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:52 PM (T2V/1)

421 395 Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:43 PM (T2V/1) God. See: Thomas Aquinas, Argument From Contingency Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 06:47 PM (QFxY5) The Anselm argument (after Godel's restatment) Definition 1: x is God-like if and only if x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive Definition 2: A is an essence of x if and only if for every property B, x has B necessarily if and only if A entails B Definition 3: x necessarily exists if and only if every essence of x is necessarily exemplified Axiom 1: Any property entailed byÂ—i.e., strictly implied byÂ—a positive property is positive Axiom 2: If a property is positive, then its negation is not positive Axiom 3: The property of being God-like is positive Axiom 4: If a property is positive, then it is necessarily positive Axiom 5: Necessary existence is a positive property

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 02:52 PM (bRL1M)

422 Alvin Plantinga is around right now. He's probably not Newton-tier smart, but as an atheist I would not want to debate the guy.

Being religious or nonreligious really has nothing to do at all with intelligence. It's a disposition thing, in my opinion. Some people are predisposed to need a form of guiding order in their lives, and most take to the religion of their family and community. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with that. Even most atheists are that sort, in my experience - they've just subbed out some form of leftism for actual religion. Go to a meeting of atheists sometime (most colleges have a club) and speak loudly about how silly feminists are. You'll separate the trendy leftists and the true dispositional unbelievers pretty quickly.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 02:52 PM (1zhvB)

423 perhaps atheists take things too literally, that perhaps some teachings are allegories to experiences we face. some are real time some are future possibilities. time is spoken of and humanity real time is explained as not G-ds reality of time. just shooting the breeze here, looks around for choom.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 02:53 PM (nqBYe)

424 It's vanity and hubris to think that what exists based on science as we know it today. What will be discovered centuries from now will make a joke out of today's best scientific minds Posted by: kbdabear at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM .Bingo.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 02:53 PM (/o+xv)

425 All for what? So they don't have to listen to Great Aunt Melinda talk about Jesus?

Seems pretty crappy.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 06:50 PM (hFL/3)

And pretty dumb when you consider that they as atheists probably talk about and obsess more about Jesus than Great Aunt Melinda does.

I'd rather spend a week with a family of Evangelical Christians than a day with a militant atheist. I'll hear about God a whole lot less.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 02:53 PM (LI48c)

426 404 302 Modern media atheists are dead sure that Religion causes all wars, and routinely express a complete ignorance of the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the name of atheism in the many Marxist-driven bloodbaths from Europe to Asia. Bullshit. Communism's crimes arent on Atheism. If so, where's the great round up and murder of Christians in America by Atheists?

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:53 PM (oAAzd)

427 Very interesting collection of questions and answers. For me it boils down to this. You and I were made in the image of a very personal God who loves us and desires a relationship with us. He created me to enjoy His world and His presence. Because of my sinfulness, I was not able to have this relationship with Him until He made a way. Jesus is that way. Now I have the blessed opportunity to become fully me, the me I was created to be. I have eternal life with God. The rest is interesting, but incidental.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 02:53 PM (oMKp3)

428

Poets, writers, philosophers, some of the very best, have all said that the eye is the window to the soul.

How right they were.

The eye defeats all arguments as to evolution. This does not come from some RWNJ.

This comes from a physicist and a mathematician, who I believe were both at Cambridge (UK), which said that if the Earth is 4B yrs old then the probablity that this is all some random event is laughable and shouldn't even be taught.

They are both atheists. And my university, once it got wind of what they were going to say, refused to let them speak at an event.

I believe in science and logic, not the religion of evolution and global warming. For those religions, number me an atheist.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:53 PM (tVTLU)

429 >> I saw Bill Cosby live, sometime in the mid 1980s. I saw him open for Lionel Richie.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (wnwiA)

430 6k years we start to write and land on the fucking moon, AND COME BACK!

Discontinuity and accumulation happen, just like diversity they are created by the chaos math.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (DL2i+)

431 it's foolish to believe silly ancient stories that were obviously dreamed up for obvious reasons. I think it can be great believe in ancient stories. They thought the city Troy was a fable until Schliemann (sp?) found. it On of course, the thing about stories is they have value whether they are entirely true or not. They are "true" in the sense of being "fitting" I guess it depends on what you do with the stories. We all have family stories that shape what we are and who we believe. I don't know that they are all entirely factual or not but they still have meaning.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (XyM/Y)

432 What created the first sub-atomic particle? Many theories. Some think the Universe has always been, and always will. Think of all the matter in the Universe breaking down into sub atomic particle over some trillion X trillion year time period, then gravitationally being forced into some tiny area. If you believe that Einstein and mass = energy then you could hypothesis that a Big Bang would then occur, in the same way that a star could (and has) spontaneously ignited from a large enough ball of hydrogen gas. I kinda like this theory because then infinity -1 means the day that I wake up from whatever and live again. Infinity -1 passes like a good nights sleep in that scenario.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron [/i] at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (CnA98)

433

Because of my sinfulness, I was not able to have this relationship with Him until He made a way. Jesus is that way.

That's all Paul. Jesus didn't say that.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (A0sHn)

434 When you look at religion vs science, there is only one conclusion IT WAS ALIENS, DUDE!!!

Posted by: Georgio Tsoukalis at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (aTXUx)

435 411 The great flood is actually pretty fucking interesting. There is some evidence for it. I have always thought it was probably the melting glaciers about 12,000 to 15,000 years ago. It stretches across all worldwide cultures. That would make sense for a sudden increase in ocean levels.
***

Ocean levels were much, much lower at the end of the last Ice Age.

For example, the Continental Shelf, which runs about 200 miles out from the east coast, was above ground back then. Melting ice caused the oceans to rise, to reach the shores of today.

But enough melting ice to inundate all existing land, everywhere? Not a chance.

(and certainly not reach the top of Mount Ararat.)

Posted by: Artie Pshaw at February 27, 2014 02:54 PM (BYZzw)

436 It will be a place of fire, death, destruction and pain.

Ah, the human condition.

Posted by: toby928Â© at February 27, 2014 06:46 PM (QupBk)

In the end...there will be only chaos.

And Cosby is a funny guy because he can have an entire audience in stitches without saying a single thing that you couldn't repeat in front of your mother. Well, except the thing about cocaine.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 02:55 PM (yh0zB)

437 I don't think it's the belief as much as the believers, and how the push forced reverence of their belief into the public forum Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:33 PM (oAAzd) I suspect that is a necessary part of the system for societal control. The Beautiful thing about religion, is that it obliges people to control themselves, and it relies on their own mind to provide the enforcer to make them do it. I think the system can sustain some quantity of non-adherence, but I think when a certain hysteresis point is reached, the system will collapse suddenly. Then it's Katy bar the door, because there will be no control on the most evil appetites of man.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:55 PM (bb5+k)

438 and how's the bod? better i hope? Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 06:49 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) Oy vey. I'll live, if you call this living.

*Hypothetically* I'm getting better. We'll see after the next test. But how are you and yours? Well, I hope?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 02:55 PM (qyfb5)

439

"I never, not once, heard a pastor say the earth was less than 20,000 years old"

Yeah, my copy of the bible starts with'In the beginning^A)">A)'> God created^B)">B)'> the heavens^C)">C)'> and the earth' and gives no timelines of 20K years that I recall. This seems to be one of those 'lol stupid christianists' things that has no basis in reality.

And there was likely a pretty big flood at some point.

Posted by: Lea at February 27, 2014 02:55 PM (/bd0t)

440 A small nit to pick, God created the world in six days, not seven.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Genisis 2:2

Posted by: Retread at February 27, 2014 02:55 PM (cHwk5)

441 I'm pretty sure most atheists don't know dick about Catholicism. They gather bits and snippets from the Libtard/Alex Jones-type sites and then try to offend me with them, but none ever really apply. It's like ragging on a tall guy for being short, they have no fucking clue what they're talking about, just got to get that hate out.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 02:55 PM (ZshNr)

442 God definitely exists and I can prove it. Yes, really.

It's obvious. Just use your eyes and brain.

Or just look out your window.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 02:56 PM (d3MA1)

443 414 The real question I always have for Atheists is why they desire to take away someone else's faith. Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:56 PM (oAAzd)

444 420 Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (bRL1M)

That all looks like the stuff organic farmers use to fertilize there vegetables with.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 02:56 PM (T2V/1)

445 432 Because of my sinfulness, I was not able to have this relationship with Him until He made a way. Jesus is that way. That's all Paul. Jesus didn't say that. =========== On the contrary. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 02:56 PM (oMKp3)

446

Frumious:

That is true. We have seen the same thing, but come to different conclusions, in regards to that front.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 02:56 PM (tVTLU)

447 Most interesting in this debate I think is the atheist being a cramped literalist in the interpretation of scripture, when not simply being wrong. Denying God his poetic license, are ye?

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 02:56 PM (sOtz/)

448 http://bit.ly/1mJs5JJ and http://bit.ly/1htuD9s

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (d3MA1)

449 Atheism was a prime motivator in Collective expansionism, which decade or nation shall we start with?

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (ZshNr)

450 OK, I'll bite: where did all that water go?

Genesis 7:11-12
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

It wasn't just rain, there were geysers from deep in the Earth. My guess is the water was in part sealed up again where it came from.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (P7Wsr)

451 If we piled up all the strawmen showing up in this thread, and set them all on fire at once, would it be enough to disrupt the weather pattern causing all of these fucking Polar Vortices?

Posted by: filbert at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (roTS7)

452 'Vanity is the handmaiden to all sin.' My first psychology professor said that if you were to psychoanalyze the bible's Satan, he is the perfect malignant narcissist. You may be onto a deeper truth. For the nonbelievers, I will offer you this, God is love. Ponder that thought for awhile and perhaps it will lead you to a new understanding of those of us who do believe.

Posted by: ronette at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (C3NOW)

453 Atheists have yet to explain that.

Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (T2V/1)

Hey Vic, just between you and me; I don't give a rat's ass what they think, and I'll bet neither do you.

I stopped paying attention to them when I said, "You may be correct," and they responded with, "But you are wrong."

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (QFxY5)

454 441 God definitely exists and I can prove it. Yes, really. It's obvious. Just use your eyes and brain. Or just look out your window. You mean that dead rat on the sidewalk?

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (oAAzd)

455 332 D-Lamp: An intelligent atheists deals with Moslems by subjecting them to canned sunshine, in the form of thermonuclear weapons. Posted by: Kristophr at February 27, 2014 06:35 PM (c6N69) One might think that to be the case, but in Europe they seem to have developed a slightly more pussified method for dealing with them. (Tolerance.) So far, history hasn't followed your theory, but I have great hopes.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (bb5+k)

456 433 When you look at religion vs science, there is only one conclusion
~~IT WAS ALIENS, DUDE!!!~~
Posted by: Georgio Tsoukalis at February 27, 2014 06:54 PM (aTXUx)

I think it's the certainty that one or both is wrong.

Posted by: jwb7605 [/i][/u][/s][/b] at February 27, 2014 02:57 PM (ZALPg)

457

On the contrary. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

If you're curious, grammie, I addressed that very line in post #111.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 02:58 PM (A0sHn)

458 And the Swiss were hardly at peace for 500 years. Other than that, it's a pretty good quote.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 27, 2014 02:58 PM (JpgTb)

459 "Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom" Do you honestly think that Christians are incapable of that?

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 02:58 PM (hFL/3)

460

Great read. Thanks, Ace. Of course everything you said can be applied to militant gays and militant lefties. They really, really, really need affirmation that they are worthy and after all those miserable years in high school, they're finally in the In Crowd!

Posted by: joanne at February 27, 2014 02:59 PM (s/quq)

461 Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Amazing how it is lost on you how what you just said is proselytizing your religion.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 02:59 PM (tyz5J)

462 "My first psychology professor said that if you were to psychoanalyze the bible's Satan, he is the perfect malignant narcissist." So Obama *is* the anti-christ!

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 02:59 PM (hFL/3)

463

Here's a challenge:

Name me one story from the Old Testament that did not happen and is not supported by the architectural record.

And yes assholes, don't pull up things that wouldn't have survived, like Jonah living in a whale.

Good luck with that.

It's not that those who believe in the stories of the Bible are fools and our better atheist friends must get over their own vanity and still hug us proles as brothers.

The opposite is true. Those who deny the historical background of all Biblical stories are woefully ignorant of history and archeology.

Perhaps vanity is a shield to hid ignorance or stupidity??

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 03:00 PM (tVTLU)

464 Merovign,i've been having a stretch of horrid life with one of my children . been weepy and worried. such is life with children! otherwise my daughter is in remission thank G-d. (yeah i said it) so we have a momentary reprieve from that specific fear.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:00 PM (nqBYe)

465 I think it's the certainty that one or both is wrong.

Posted by: jwb7605 at February 27, 2014 06:57 PM (ZALPg)

What? Either science is wrong or religion is wrong? Hm. I thought the religious people were supposed to be the narrow-minded ones. Lots of religious folks here (for varying degrees of religious) that have no problems with science.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 03:00 PM (yh0zB)

466 You see, Dummy, you do indeed have a religion, non religion. Your non-religion, as you say, shows you the truths makes you feel free. And your desire to share that, isn't it?

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (tyz5J)

467 I've always considered Islam an Army, not a Religion.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (ZshNr)

468 That's a otal strawman-That Theists have no belief in appreciating the here and now. If they had no belief in the here and now for one thing they wouldn't be serving at food pantries. The largest group of chartitabe endeavors came out of the churches and synagogues and are largely supported by religious folks

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (XyM/Y)

469 I usually encourage people to keep their faith or find one, because I'm an atheist who likes people to be happy. Whether they agree with me when they're happy is inconsequential.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (1zhvB)

470 This fits into the ghey category, in that I do care if someone is an atheist (beyond concern for their mortal soul). What I do care about, is being treated as the equivalent of a white supremacist if I *am* a believer.

Posted by: Guillotined Robespierre Zombie at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (aDwsi)

471 God definitely exists and I can prove it. Yes, really.

It's obvious. Just use your eyes and brain.

Or just look out your window.

Posted by: HuuskerDu

Hey! You're right. Jesus is outside on my lawn.

With a leaf-blower.

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (XKKNz)

472 458 "Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom" Do you honestly think that Christians are incapable of that? Of course there must be exceptions to the rule, but I have yet to meet them. If that's you, then all the best!

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:01 PM (oAAzd)

473 OK Ace. I call Troll. I wasn't all too familiar with SS as I am sometimes gone for a spell. But the guy get's a farging post with his name in the top billing. So what does he do? Comes in and while adding a little sugar to it, insults people and leaves with nary another word. So, yea, troll. And you fed it. Great topic and conversation though amongst the horde, so kudos on that.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:02 PM (/o+xv)

474 452 I stopped paying attention to them when I said, "You may be correct," and they responded with, "But you are wrong."

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 06:57 PM (QFxY5)

Having studied nuclear theory and stuff it does make you wonder how it all got started.

Anyway it is time for me to bow out for the night and do my routine disk cleanup. Arguing religion with a devout atheist though truly is a waste of time in nearly all cases. Arguing with a true agnostic though may have better results.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 27, 2014 03:02 PM (T2V/1)

475 SAT Question :

Atheist like to suck on big, black _________.

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 27, 2014 03:02 PM (hn70M)

476 I've always considered Islam an Army, not a Religion.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 07:01 PM (ZshNr)

Yup.

It is a revolutionary political philosophy that uses religion to control its adherents.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:02 PM (QFxY5)

477 If we piled up all the strawmen showing up in this thread, and set them all on fire at once, would it be enough to disrupt the weather pattern causing all of these fucking Polar Vortices?

Posted by: filbert at February 27, 2014 06:57 PM (roTS7)

Lets try it. I know I'm sick of cold already, but then again I was never a big fan of it to begin with. I was all in favor of glowbull warmening, dammit!

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 03:02 PM (yh0zB)

478 "been weepy and worried." I'm sorry, Willow. I know that feeling.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (XyM/Y)

479 Hector "engages" too. The only difference is seattle is more long-winded an asswipe.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (JpgTb)

480 You've got it backwards seattle slough: Darwinism was barley plausible before genetics, now obviously impossible, hence Neodarwinism. You are hiding behind Scientific Orthodoxy where observable/experimental science can't reach. The scientific method can't apply to past events. To act as if you know matter was not created in the same way you know gravity is 9.8 m/s/s, is your way of hiding from the fact you can't prove there is no Authority.

Posted by: pashmr at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (3aNC4)

481 Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

It's certainly a very old dogma of the Church. Your quote is from John but there's a very similar quote in Matthew (and Luke): "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Anyway, if we assume that Jesus thought he was the Messiah - note that even atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman admit that Jesus did think this - then Jesus must have said something like this.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (30eLQ)

482 Actually, there's a good bit of evidence to back up assertions of a world-wide flood, or at least a "known world"-wide flood. The Noah/Ark story is not the only one to be found in ancient cultures, it's just the Judaic version. === Humans were around when the last glaciation ended, causing the vast ice sheets that covered the continents to melt and the sea level to rise 400 feet. All that melt water making its way to the ocean probably caused lots of large, local floods in much of the inhabited world.

Posted by: whoever at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (kGSN0)

483 And pretty dumb when you consider that they as atheists probably talk about and obsess more about Jesus than Great Aunt Melinda does.

I'd rather spend a week with a family of Evangelical Christians than a day with a militant atheist. I'll hear about God a whole lot less.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 06:53 PM (LI48c)

This is my issue with the Annie Laurie Gaylors out there. They want to crap on Christmas, all because they think we are spending government dollars on religious expressions, as if that were some sort of detriment. I, personally, don't want to spend government dollars on abortions, but we do, and I really have no say in that matter.

Also, they are assholes. Telling kids there is no Santa Claus, and the like. And they get into everything, thinking they are all so damned smart. All you need to do is listen to her for a few minutes to realize she is the bitterest, nastiest old hag you've ever met, and she is bent on making you just like her.

Good luck with that, honey.

Posted by: tcn at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (fwcEs)

484

Hey! You're right. Jesus is outside on my lawn.

With a leaf-blower.

Rimshot!

All of you people made out of pixels are so cute that I've been squandering non-work time still in the office keeping up with you. Thanks all, but ciao.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (A0sHn)

485 Hmmm, Pepsi strikes back in the cola wars with another Jeff Gordon scares the crap out someone on a phony test drive. This time a blogger from Jalopnik.

http://extramustard.si.com/2014/02/27/jeff-gordon-jalopnik-police-chase-prank/

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (kUgpq)

486 "The Beautiful thing about religion, is that it obliges people to control themselves, and it relies on their own mind to provide the enforcer to make them do it." My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. If it ends up that you were wrong, or did wrong, no worries -- you can be forgiven! (No matter what harm you have caused others.)

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:03 PM (oAAzd)

487 The main tenet of the religion of Atheism believes that the world would be better off without religion. Isn't that right, Dummy?

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (tyz5J)

488 >>>>>> 440 I'm pretty sure most atheists don't know dick about Catholicism. They gather bits and snippets from the Libtard/Alex Jones-type sites and then try to offend me with them, but none ever really apply. It's like ragging on a tall guy for being short, they have no fucking clue what they're talking about, just got to get that hate out. Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 06:55 PM (ZshNr) THIS. Like with the 3 stupid questions that this supposedly deep thinker crudely reduces Christan belief to as the basis for dividing the fools from the learned.

Posted by: L, elle at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (0xqKe)

489 Lots of religious folks here (for varying degrees of religious) that have no problems with science.

See this guy for a good example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Eyring

I guarantee jwb7605's intellect doesn't hold a candle to that accomplished scientist.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (P7Wsr)

490 Fenelon, Its difficult to watch ones child be so self destructive. yeah it kills me.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (nqBYe)

491 "I'd rather spend a week with a family of Evangelical Christians than a day with a militant atheist. I'll hear about God a whole lot less." They'll talk your ear off about gays, tho.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (oAAzd)

492 There have been discoveries in the bed of the Black Sea of evidence that the sea bed once was a populated area. The straits between the Turkey and Greece were created by a combination of earthquakes and rising seas. It's believed that those events happened in a short time and are the actual events that the biblical Great Flood are based on

Posted by: kbdabear at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (aTXUx)

493 Well I know as a Christian I will pray that these misguided people are able to accept Jesus before they leave earth. The flawed Christian in me kind of hopes they don't so they won't be up there annoying the shit out of everyone for eternity.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:04 PM (/o+xv)

494 Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 07:02 PM (/o+xv)

I think Ace used SS as a convenient foil to speak of his own atheism/agnosticism.

SS misinterpreted it as some recognition of his own worth, and poked his wart-covered head into a fascinating discussion.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (QFxY5)

495 Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:01 PM (oAAzd) ====== You dont know any happy Christians who enjoy life? Come over for dinner this weekend. We laugh pretty much most of the time at our house. Good food, good wine, lots of interesting conversation. Seriously, whenever you are in SE Wisconsin, you are welcome at our table.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (oMKp3)

496 "So I guess this makes me an agnostic Deist Buddhist or something." First Reformed Tabernacle of the Abiding Dude

Posted by: Darth Cobalt Shiva, Sith Lord at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (OY/SZ)

497 Arguing religion with a devout atheist though truly is a waste of time in nearly all cases. Arguing with a true agnostic though may have better results.

Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 07:02 PM (T2V/1)

You don't argue to sway the convinced. You argue to sway the unconvinced. Good night Vic, see you on the morning thread.

I'm gonna go catch a little nap myself, have to be up all night tonight. Later roonz and roonettez, fear no evil!

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (yh0zB)

498 Bullshit. Communism's crimes arent on Atheism. If so, where's the great round up and murder of Christians in America by Atheists? Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:53 PM (oAAzd) They haven't reached critical mass yet. But if you want to see a precursor, look up Bill Ayers " Prairie Fire." 25 million dead is a target.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (bb5+k)

499 Ace I would like to meet you and seattle slough and Gabe Maalor and bake you a cake of your choice. And while it's baking, maybe rap about Jesus.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (5xmd7)

500 >>My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ

You either a) attended a very corrupt church or b) managed not to learn anything from your personal experiences.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (1zhvB)

501 It's amazing what so many Atheists (not all, by any means, just the trollish) online think they know about Christianity. But as soon as they actually talk to Christians they just wind up looking uninformed. Of course, then they simply inform us that we don't know our own faith or holy book. It's comical really. Nothing to be upset about. I imagine they've just spent too much time on a Reddit/atheist thread busting on Christians with a bunch of other unformed atheists. It's good for their ego, not so good for actually learning anything.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:05 PM (ES9R7)

502 500!

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:06 PM (ES9R7)

503 They'll talk your ear off about gays, tho. Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:04 PM But will they force you to bake a cock cake?

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:06 PM (/o+xv)

504 @362 "A non-believer can believe that theft and murder are wrong, but that's just his own subjective viewpoint. Without God (or some other higher power to appeal to) the person who says theft and murder are wrong doesn't have even better claim to be right than the person who says theft and murder are okay." The believer loves this line of reasoning, because it suggests a need for their belief, but it's baloney. It's no accident that virtually all religions - even ones that developed in complete isolation from each other - decided that theft and murder are wrong. And it's no accident that you chose those two "no brainers". No society could function if wholesale theft and murder were tolerated, and so that is a clear-cut OBJECTIVE moral concept. It's not "subjective", or otherwise arbitrary, and no supernatural diety is required! In fact, you could call Communism the very institutionalization of wholesale theft, which is why it has an unblemished track record of failure. When you get to less obvious matters of right and wrong, religions begin to differ, and even people within the same religion can differ - even with their supernatural judge to help out. It turns out that most people recognize others who say that God has spoken to them as crazy (and they don't agree on what God says, anyway). Morality exists independently of religion. It is the focus of ethics, which is a branch of philosophy.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 03:06 PM (saDM3)

505 The largest group of chartitable endeavors came out of the churches and synagogues and are largely supported by religious folks ------------------ I look around our community, and from whence cometh the help for the indigent, the needy, and the poor? The city, no. The county, no. It comes from the various religious organizations. I except the Unitarians, who seem mostly to put together sing-alongs.

Posted by: Guillotined Robespierre Zombie at February 27, 2014 03:06 PM (aDwsi)

506 You either a) attended a very corrupt church or b) managed not to learn anything from your personal experiences. Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 07:05 PM (1zhvB)

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:06 PM (ES9R7)

507 22 Was Blaise Pascal a fool? Yes. Blaise Pascal invented differential equations just so he could invent some form of mathematics that was completely useless. Little did he know that differential equations would go on to become the basis for more form of engineering used today. -------- He had another less known role. Pascal was a member of the Port Royal Society , or the Jansenist movement. This group infuriated the absolutist French King Louis XIV by publicly challenging his claim divine right ( starting with the sale of appointments for high levels clerical positions. ) Pascal, his friend Arnauld and his sister the Abbess of Port Royal began to publish letters questioning the nature of government, sovereignty, and demanding a general election of leaders, and reform of the estates privileges. The letters flooded France and Europe, eventually becoming secularized and popularized by writers such as Voltaire. Louis was so thrilled he burned down the convent and jailed the nuns for life

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 03:07 PM (OU1Hh)

508 "Of course there must be exceptions to the rule, but I have yet to meet them. If that's you, then all the best!" It's not just me, it's literally every Christian that I know. I don't know any Christian who doesn't appreciate the here an now. Ask a young Christian widow if she wishes she had just one more day with her husband, and I'm sure the answer will be a resounding "YES!". Belief in an afterlife doesn't change the fact that this mortal life exists, nor does it change the fact that we all want to live a meaningful and full life here on earth. As for truth and freedom, I've yet to meet a pastor who holds his congregation at gun point (outside of Islam). Christians are constantly seeking truth and understanding.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 03:07 PM (hFL/3)

509 Sounds more like leftism ...." it's o.k, to do anything as long as you advance the cause".

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:07 PM (XyM/Y)

510 460 Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Amazing how it is lost on you how what you just said is proselytizing your religion. Freedom isn't my religion - but it what I value most.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:07 PM (oAAzd)

511 Well, that didn't work. Trying again ================ You either a) attended a very corrupt church or b) managed not to learn anything from your personal experiences. Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 07:05 PM (1zhvB) ================ or c) their "personal experience" consists primarily of television and movies.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:07 PM (ES9R7)

512 Or radical Islam.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:07 PM (XyM/Y)

513 That week you ran around with Hitchens , did you get into this ? If you did are you willing to share ?

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at February 27, 2014 03:08 PM (XWw96)

514 How ironic -- atheists want to show Christians the light. lulz

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:08 PM (tyz5J)

515 They'll talk your ear off about gays, tho.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:04 PM (oAAzd)

Spent a week last month with my evangelical minister parents (yep, both of them) and we didn't talk about gays even once that I remember.

OK, now I really am out. Later roonz and roonettez!

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 03:09 PM (yh0zB)

516 485 "The Beautiful thing about religion, is that it obliges people to control themselves, and it relies on their own mind to provide the enforcer to make them do it."

My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. If it ends up that you were wrong, or did wrong, no worries -- you can be forgiven! (No matter what harm you have caused others.)

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:03 PM (oAAzd)

What a dishonest little shit you are.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 03:09 PM (LI48c)

517 486 The main tenet of the religion of Atheism believes that the world would be better off without religion. Isn't that right, Dummy? Um, no. Atheism has no tenets. It is just a rejection of supernatural incursions in the natural world

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:09 PM (oAAzd)

518 >>No society could function if wholesale theft and murder were tolerated, and so that is a clear-cut OBJECTIVE moral concept

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 07:06 PM (saDM3)

Utility is a good start for descriptive morality, but it doesn't bridge the is-ought gap and can't be normative. Not to knock utility - nothing bridges the is-ought gap, unless you believe in a holder of a Universal Perspective.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:09 PM (1zhvB)

519 Morality exists independently of religion. It is the focus of ethics, which is a branch of philosophy. Posted by: Optimizer ------------------ Does it? If that is true, then morality is highly personal, and high malleable. Which is to say, no morality at all.

Posted by: Guillotined Robespierre Zombie at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (aDwsi)

520 Now you're speaking in nonsensical riddles, Dummy. Accept it: You have a religion. And you want to spread your religion to others.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (tyz5J)

521 What? Either science is wrong or religion is wrong? Hm. I thought the religious people were supposed to be the narrow-minded ones. Lots of religious folks here (for varying degrees of religious) that have no problems with science.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at February 27, 2014 07:00 PM (yh0zB)

I'm saying (quoting, actually) that if (when) there's a difference between religion and science, one or both is wrong.

Posted by: jwb7605 [/i][/u][/s][/b] at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (ZALPg)

522 Atheists should concentrate their efforts on spreading the North Korean model, no Religion, Universal Peace, 100% Citizen Contentment (as measured by the Atheist Government).

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (ZshNr)

523 ". The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ" So when you say "though never voiced" what you really mean is "what I'm making up about them to fit my narrative."

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (hFL/3)

524 I knew Pascal was a Jansenist, but I didn't know he challenged the divine right of Louis quatorze.

Well, that's one thing Pascal was wrong about. As history proved

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (30eLQ)

525 Somewhere between 15 and 20 years ago, Popular Science had an entire episode devoted to scientific explanations of Bible stories. Fascinating and really interesting. There's also a book called "The Serpent's Promise" (I think) that does some of the same.

Posted by: DangerGirl at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (GrtrJ)

526 Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (oAAzd) You want to live in the fruits of a Christian society while burning the boat that got us here. It is my theory that if you take Christianity out of society, you will simply collapse the foundation upon which the society was created. And i'm a pro-theist agnostic, which is apparently a lot more common than I realized before today. I guess my point is that I think the superstition is essential to the system. It's like the mortar or something that holds it all together. Religion is the ultimate Chesterton's Fence.

Posted by: D-Lamp at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (bb5+k)

527 Here you are, imposing your religious beliefs on others. heh

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (tyz5J)

528 1. And Ace descended from the Holy Trash-Pile, bearing the Commandments laid down by The Lord, 2. And Ace saw the squabbling among the Morons, and it was good. 3. And Ace decided he'd had Done Enough, and took another long weekend to pick up supplies of pudding and Valu-Rite for the coming apocalypse. 3. And the Morons waited for the ONT, and the Book Thread, and the Gun Thread, and the Cooking Thread, and the trippy astronomy CAC threads and the cat pictures and the other manna of the Internets which Ace in his wisdom had provided to them. 3. And it was Good. 3. And for some reason the Morons couldn't get past Verse Three.

Posted by: filbert at February 27, 2014 03:10 PM (roTS7)

529 339
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch

Uh, if we could bone them (reproduce) they were not proto-humans at all, just more humans. Co producing fertile offspring being the definition of species after all.

Posted by: pashmr at February 27, 2014 03:11 PM (3aNC4)

530 So Christians can't appreciate the here and now? Umm, ok then.

Posted by: RWC at February 27, 2014 03:11 PM (MtC8f)

531 I know lots of people who have been badly burned by Christians at some point in their lives, or have been hurt by abusive churches. That's on us believers who've been stumbling blocks. Don't be a stumbling block. Love.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 03:11 PM (oMKp3)

532 You dont know any happy Christians who enjoy life? Come over for dinner this weekend. We laugh pretty much most of the time at our house. Good food, good wine, lots of interesting conversation. Seriously, whenever you are in SE Wisconsin, you are welcome at our table.

All the best!

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:11 PM (oAAzd)

533 @385 "Ace, you say you don't believe in God, and yet you then describe vanity as a "sin." If there's no God, how can there be sin? And what difference does sinning make, anyway?" Not to speak for Ace, but that's an easy one. To sin is to do something morally wrong. Morality exists whether or not you believe in a celestial Santa Claus who's gonna give you a lump of coal if you go the wrong way too many times. In the real world, sin means damaging your own life and posterity, be it in big ways or small.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 03:11 PM (saDM3)

534 Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 07:07 PM (OU1Hh) ====================== Pascal is my #1 favorite Frog. #2 Louis Pasteur #3 Marquise de Lafayette #4 Alexandre Dumas I believe that everyone should have their Frenchies properly enumerated at all times in case of emergency.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:11 PM (ES9R7)

535 Christians should be 'religous.'

Posted by: RWC at February 27, 2014 03:12 PM (MtC8f)

536 As a Christian I will pray that these misguided people are able to accept Jesus before they leave earth. The flawed Christian in me kind of hopes they don't, so they won't be up there annoying the shit out of everyone for eternity.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:12 PM (/o+xv)

537 The only talking I do ABOUT gays is on here and then again I don't say all that much, although I do talk TO some gays because some of them are dear people whom I love.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:12 PM (XyM/Y)

538 Posted by: filbert at February 27, 2014 07:10 PM (roTS7)

I'm damn glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, or I'd need to completely replace everything on my desk.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 03:13 PM (uCYHf)

539 Hey Ace, I wanted to recommend a book to you. It's called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" by Normal Geisler. You should give it a read and do a post about it. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts, even if it doesn't change your mind on anything. I would like to hear a thoughtful atheist's take on the book, which I consider you to be.

Posted by: PBJ89 at February 27, 2014 03:13 PM (r1du+)

540 that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. ---------- Yeah that's pretty much bullshit.

Posted by: Adam at February 27, 2014 03:13 PM (Aif/5)

541 499 >>My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ You either a) attended a very corrupt church or b) managed not to learn anything from your personal experiences. Good question....

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:13 PM (oAAzd)

542 Atheism has no tenets. It is just a rejection of supernatural incursions in the natural world

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:09 PM (oAAzd)

And yet here you are; proselytizing!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:13 PM (QFxY5)

543 Um, no. Atheism has no tenets. It is just a rejection of supernatural incursions in the natural world

It's also illogical.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:13 PM (P7Wsr)

544 Quantum Foam Theory purports to explain the most basic particles. It helps to keep field theory in mind.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:14 PM (sOtz/)

545 502 They'll talk your ear off about gays, tho. Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:04 PM But will they force you to bake a cock cake? You got me, bro.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:14 PM (oAAzd)

546 Morality exists independently of religion. It is the focus of ethics, which is a branch of philosophy. Posted by: Optimizer ethics as in ethics eugenics? where did ethics derive from? we know those held off from contact or modernity pretty recently were still eating other people. they believed that good or at the least yummy.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:14 PM (nqBYe)

547 orality exists whether or not you believe in a celestial Santa Claus who's gonna give you a lump of coal if you go the wrong way too many times. Could we please stop this kind of rude. demeaning language about Santa Claus and the Flying Spaghettii Monster?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:14 PM (XyM/Y)

548

A big giveaway is the Hubble Ultra Deep Field (UDF).

The UDF is impossible without a super-finely tuned matter density gradient and alpha opacity function that is absolutely perfect. The UDF does not require the Anthropic Principle. (AP is the last, desperate, refuge of the cornered atheist.)

The UDF is basically God showing off. See the YouTube video at http://bit.ly/1hXpwBU (8+ million views).

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 03:15 PM (d3MA1)

549 Great post Ace...well done!

Posted by: KG at February 27, 2014 03:15 PM (djA64)

550 No society could function if wholesale theft and murder were tolerated, and so that is a clear-cut OBJECTIVE moral concept. It's not "subjective", or otherwise arbitrary, and no supernatural diety is required! In fact, you could call Communism the very institutionalization of wholesale theft, which is why it has an unblemished track record of failure. Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 07:06 PM (saDM3) ===================== Pretty much every atheist country in history has been predicated and sustained by murder and theft. Both are not only celebrated but considered patriotic.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:15 PM (ES9R7)

551 I'm saying (quoting, actually) that if (when) there's a difference between religion and science, one or both is wrong.

Posted by: jwb7605 at February 27, 2014 07:10 PM (ZALPg)

Problem is, there is not difference, or conflict. There are a great many things that we don't know, being finite creatures, but in fact, there are no conflicts.

Name me one, please.

Posted by: tcn at February 27, 2014 03:15 PM (fwcEs)

552 Don't be a stumbling block. Love.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 07:11 PM (oMKp3)

As you just demonstrated (but I'll bet he doesn't get it).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:15 PM (QFxY5)

553 I know lots of people who have been badly burned by Christians at some point in their lives, or have been hurt by abusive churches. That's on us believers who've been stumbling blocks. Don't be a stumbling block. Love. Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 07:11 PM ......Yep. People fail. Whether they're believers' or not. I had my heart broken by ex girlfriends, and have been betrayed by friends. Yet I still love and have friends. Religion is not God. If I want to find an excuse not to believe, all I have to do is wait for a human to fail because they will.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:16 PM (/o+xv)

554 AOSHQ Smart Military/Philosophy blog.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 03:16 PM (0FSuD)

555 fkty dck i lost Merovign.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:16 PM (nqBYe)

556 My personal experience with religion was a Catholic education and family environment, and I could not possibly be more grateful for either. The Church is the greatest charitable organization in history and the pillar of western society and I wish her all the best.

Maybe you need to pay attention to different religious people, j.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:16 PM (1zhvB)

557 That's on us believers who've been stumbling blocks. Just reminded of a good song I hadn't listened to in a long time by DC TALK What If I Stumble?

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:16 PM (tyz5J)

558 485 "The Beautiful thing about religion, is that it obliges people to control themselves, and it relies on their own mind to provide the enforcer to make them do it." My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. If it ends up that you were wrong, or did wrong, no worries -- you can be forgiven! (No matter what harm you have caused others.) Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:03 PM (oAAzd) What a dishonest little shit you are. Evangelical Bible based Church: 16 years Conservative Christian School: 4 years I calls it like I see it. Here's the thing, buddy. There are good Christians. Lots of 'em. But there's also tons of bad ones. And they hurt people. Especiallly kids.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (oAAzd)

559 485 "The Beautiful thing about religion, is that it obliges people to control themselves, and it relies on their own mind to provide the enforcer to make them do it." My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. If it ends up that you were wrong, or did wrong, no worries -- you can be forgiven! (No matter what harm you have caused others.) Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:03 PM (oAAzd) What a dishonest little shit you are. Evangelical Bible based Church: 16 years Conservative Christian School: 4 years I calls it like I see it. Here's the thing, buddy. There are good Christians. Lots of 'em. But there's also tons of bad ones. And they hurt people. Especiallly kids.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (oAAzd)

560 485 "The Beautiful thing about religion, is that it obliges people to control themselves, and it relies on their own mind to provide the enforcer to make them do it." My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. If it ends up that you were wrong, or did wrong, no worries -- you can be forgiven! (No matter what harm you have caused others.) Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:03 PM (oAAzd) What a dishonest little shit you are. Evangelical Bible based Church: 16 years Conservative Christian School: 4 years I calls it like I see it. Here's the thing, buddy. There are good Christians. Lots of 'em. But there's also tons of bad ones. And they hurt people. Especiallly kids.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (oAAzd)

561 D-Lamp: It is my theory that if you take Christianity out of society, you will simply collapse the foundation upon which the society was created.

And i'm a pro-theist agnostic, which is apparently a lot more common than I realized before today.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

I would have liked that the French Revolution hadn't ended up in rivers of blood, but it did. Because when the revolutionaries "rebooted" or "reset" French society upon the worship of Goddess Reason, they didn't have anything better to put in its place. Centuries later we still don't have anything better.

That's the project for non-Christians: come up with a better idea for society (note: not government).

I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (30eLQ)

562 D-Lamp: It is my theory that if you take Christianity out of society, you will simply collapse the foundation upon which the society was created.

And i'm a pro-theist agnostic, which is apparently a lot more common than I realized before today.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

I would have liked that the French Revolution hadn't ended up in rivers of blood, but it did. Because when the revolutionaries "rebooted" or "reset" French society upon the worship of Goddess Reason, they didn't have anything better to put in its place. Centuries later we still don't have anything better.

That's the project for non-Christians: come up with a better idea for society (note: not government).

I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (30eLQ)

563 D-Lamp: It is my theory that if you take Christianity out of society, you will simply collapse the foundation upon which the society was created.

And i'm a pro-theist agnostic, which is apparently a lot more common than I realized before today.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

I would have liked that the French Revolution hadn't ended up in rivers of blood, but it did. Because when the revolutionaries "rebooted" or "reset" French society upon the worship of Goddess Reason, they didn't have anything better to put in its place. Centuries later we still don't have anything better.

That's the project for non-Christians: come up with a better idea for society (note: not government).

I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (30eLQ)

564 Love the article ace, but atheism is a belief system, I would hope you would be above all that. (Personally I try to believe in a higher power, so I guess that makes me a strange kind of hypocrite here)

Posted by: Strange Bedfellow at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (q177U)

565 Love the article ace, but atheism is a belief system, I would hope you would be above all that. (Personally I try to believe in a higher power, so I guess that makes me a strange kind of hypocrite here)

Posted by: Strange Bedfellow at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (q177U)

566 Love the article ace, but atheism is a belief system, I would hope you would be above all that. (Personally I try to believe in a higher power, so I guess that makes me a strange kind of hypocrite here)

Posted by: Strange Bedfellow at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (q177U)

567 >>Did they account for Methuselah living a thousand years or so? Posted by: D-Lamp Why are you bringing Helen Thomas into this?

Posted by: Aviator at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (3rrMW)

568 >>Did they account for Methuselah living a thousand years or so? Posted by: D-Lamp Why are you bringing Helen Thomas into this?

Posted by: Aviator at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (3rrMW)

569 >>Did they account for Methuselah living a thousand years or so? Posted by: D-Lamp Why are you bringing Helen Thomas into this?

Posted by: Aviator at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (3rrMW)

570 "anything better to put in its place." -> anything better to put in the place of the ancien regime

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (30eLQ)

571 "anything better to put in its place." -> anything better to put in the place of the ancien regime

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (30eLQ)

572 "anything better to put in its place." -> anything better to put in the place of the ancien regime

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (30eLQ)

573 otherwise my daughter is in remission thank G-d. (yeah i said it) so we have a momentary reprieve from that specific fear. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:00 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) I am glad of that, and sorry you have had to go through it. One of the worst things about the last few years for me is the stress I've caused my friends and family (well not caused deliberately, I did everything I could to reassure them, but it's hard to be convincing when you're in a hospital bed wired up with an electronic octopus). And of course *another* great chunk taken out of my life, after which I have to start from scratch. That's fun, too. Yaaaaaaay. Prayers, well-wishes, sacrifices to Kali or whatever it takes to keep your daughter well.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (qyfb5)

574 otherwise my daughter is in remission thank G-d. (yeah i said it) so we have a momentary reprieve from that specific fear. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:00 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) I am glad of that, and sorry you have had to go through it. One of the worst things about the last few years for me is the stress I've caused my friends and family (well not caused deliberately, I did everything I could to reassure them, but it's hard to be convincing when you're in a hospital bed wired up with an electronic octopus). And of course *another* great chunk taken out of my life, after which I have to start from scratch. That's fun, too. Yaaaaaaay. Prayers, well-wishes, sacrifices to Kali or whatever it takes to keep your daughter well.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (qyfb5)

575 otherwise my daughter is in remission thank G-d. (yeah i said it) so we have a momentary reprieve from that specific fear. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:00 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) I am glad of that, and sorry you have had to go through it. One of the worst things about the last few years for me is the stress I've caused my friends and family (well not caused deliberately, I did everything I could to reassure them, but it's hard to be convincing when you're in a hospital bed wired up with an electronic octopus). And of course *another* great chunk taken out of my life, after which I have to start from scratch. That's fun, too. Yaaaaaaay. Prayers, well-wishes, sacrifices to Kali or whatever it takes to keep your daughter well.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:17 PM (qyfb5)

576 An atheist is like a cannibal with a full belly. Don't worry, big fella, save that killing spree for another day. Society will unwittingly keep you fat and happy all of your days.

Posted by: Fritz at February 27, 2014 03:18 PM (PnMCP)

577 An atheist is like a cannibal with a full belly. Don't worry, big fella, save that killing spree for another day. Society will unwittingly keep you fat and happy all of your days.

Posted by: Fritz at February 27, 2014 03:18 PM (PnMCP)

578 An atheist is like a cannibal with a full belly. Don't worry, big fella, save that killing spree for another day. Society will unwittingly keep you fat and happy all of your days.

Posted by: Fritz at February 27, 2014 03:18 PM (PnMCP)

579 171 I don't have much to say except that Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world.

Well, it's a close thing, but I think that Smilin' Joe Biden comes out just a bit ahead.

Posted by: Splunge at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (qyomX)

580 171 I don't have much to say except that Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world.

Well, it's a close thing, but I think that Smilin' Joe Biden comes out just a bit ahead.

Posted by: Splunge at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (qyomX)

581 171 I don't have much to say except that Isaac Newton is probably the smartest person to have existed in the modern world.

Well, it's a close thing, but I think that Smilin' Joe Biden comes out just a bit ahead.

Posted by: Splunge at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (qyomX)

582 I would love a meaningful definition of supernatural. Black holes seemed supernatural until their effects were observed throughout the universe. BTW, the black hole singularity dovetails interestingly with the Big Bang singularity. Something to be learned there I think.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (sOtz/)

583 I would love a meaningful definition of supernatural. Black holes seemed supernatural until their effects were observed throughout the universe. BTW, the black hole singularity dovetails interestingly with the Big Bang singularity. Something to be learned there I think.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (sOtz/)

584 I would love a meaningful definition of supernatural. Black holes seemed supernatural until their effects were observed throughout the universe. BTW, the black hole singularity dovetails interestingly with the Big Bang singularity. Something to be learned there I think.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (sOtz/)

585 Hockey's back

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (bRL1M)

586 Hockey's back

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (bRL1M)

587 Hockey's back

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (bRL1M)

588 I'm reading here a lot of atheists describing Christians and what we think, but I've been an active Christian my entire life and I've never seen this behavior or train of though in the many Christians I've known. What I'm beginning to understand is that many atheists here have a very clear stereotype that looks a lot like something from TV, movies and the Internet, but isn't grounded at all in reality.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (ES9R7)

589 I'm reading here a lot of atheists describing Christians and what we think, but I've been an active Christian my entire life and I've never seen this behavior or train of though in the many Christians I've known. What I'm beginning to understand is that many atheists here have a very clear stereotype that looks a lot like something from TV, movies and the Internet, but isn't grounded at all in reality.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (ES9R7)

590 I'm reading here a lot of atheists describing Christians and what we think, but I've been an active Christian my entire life and I've never seen this behavior or train of though in the many Christians I've known. What I'm beginning to understand is that many atheists here have a very clear stereotype that looks a lot like something from TV, movies and the Internet, but isn't grounded at all in reality.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (ES9R7)

591 539 that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. ---------- Yeah that's pretty much bullshit. Do you go to an Evangelical Christian Church? That's what I found

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (oAAzd)

592 539 that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. ---------- Yeah that's pretty much bullshit. Do you go to an Evangelical Christian Church? That's what I found

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (oAAzd)

593 539 that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. ---------- Yeah that's pretty much bullshit. Do you go to an Evangelical Christian Church? That's what I found

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:19 PM (oAAzd)

594 443 420 Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (bRL1M) That all looks like the stuff organic farmers use to fertilize there vegetables with. Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (T2V/1) Yep but manure helps to grow food that fills our tables.

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (bRL1M)

595 Theism is belief in a God. Atheism is a belief in no God. But it's still a belief.

Posted by: --- at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (MMC8r)

596 443 420 Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (bRL1M) That all looks like the stuff organic farmers use to fertilize there vegetables with. Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (T2V/1) Yep but manure helps to grow food that fills our tables.

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (bRL1M)

597 Theism is belief in a God. Atheism is a belief in no God. But it's still a belief.

Posted by: --- at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (MMC8r)

598 443 420 Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (bRL1M) That all looks like the stuff organic farmers use to fertilize there vegetables with. Posted by: Vic at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (T2V/1) Yep but manure helps to grow food that fills our tables.

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (bRL1M)

599 Theism is belief in a God. Atheism is a belief in no God. But it's still a belief.

Posted by: --- at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (MMC8r)

600 Merovign, yeah no matter your words to them , They don't like to see one they love suffer, and that's not a terrible thing. it's just very hard. let them help share the load to the best of their ability. for all of you.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:20 PM (nqBYe)

601 They mostly get their info on Religion from HBO and Sunday morning Praymercials.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:21 PM (ZshNr)

602 525 Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (oAAzd) You want to live in the fruits of a Christian society while burning the boat that got us here. No buddy, I respect cultural Christianity, and I respect my ancestors. But I think, in the spirit of our founding fathers, that we can move on.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:21 PM (oAAzd)

603 Problem is, there is not difference, or conflict. There are a great many things that we don't know, being finite creatures, but in fact, there are no conflicts.
Name me one, please.
Posted by: tcn at February 27, 2014 07:15 PM (fwcEs)

Global Warming comes to mind.
After all, the science is settled!

Seriously, though, it doesn't seem as though we disagree.
I go by this logic: http://tinyurl.com/mocjv8o

Posted by: jwb7605 [/i][/u][/s][/b] at February 27, 2014 03:21 PM (ZALPg)

604 What are examples of doing "Anything" to advance the cause of Christ and what did the pastor use as Biblical justification for it? Are you sure it wasn't a cult?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:21 PM (XyM/Y)

605 @518 "Morality exists independently of religion. It is the focus of ethics, which is a branch of philosophy. Posted by: Optimizer ------------------ Does it? If that is true, then morality is highly personal, and high malleable. Which is to say, no morality at all." In a word, "Yes". That doesn't make it highly personal and malleable at all. You could have 1000 people calculate the integral under y=x^2, and you might get 600 "I have know idea", 300 different ways to come up with the right answer, and 100 unique, personal, answers that are not "all correct, because at least they tried", but rather, something called "wrong". (What are you, a liberal!?!) It would be best if the 600 at least go along with what the 300 say, but sometimes they'd wind up foolishly listening to one of the 100. The point is that just because people will come up with their own "personal" answers, it doesn't mean the right answer is arbitrary, and it doesn't mean they got it right.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 03:21 PM (saDM3)

606 No buddy, I respect cultural Christianity, and I respect my ancestors. But I think, in the spirit of our founding fathers, that we can move on. Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:21 PM (oAAzd) Move on to where?

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:22 PM (bRL1M)

607 Did they account for Methuselah living a thousand years or so?

Guys who lived over 900 years in the Bible:
Methuselah, Jared, Noah, Adam, Seth, Kenan and Enos.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:22 PM (P7Wsr)

608 521 Atheists should concentrate their efforts on spreading the North Korean model, no Religion, Universal Peace, 100% Citizen Contentment (as measured by the Atheist Government). Not true. They worship Kim Jong Sung and Kim Jong Il

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:23 PM (oAAzd)

609 442 414 The real question I always have for Atheists is why they desire to take away someone else's faith.

Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (oAAzd)

This is quite funny as well as biased. Why do you care if I am a Christian or a Republican or a heterosexual or collect the corpses of cicadas and display them on my head? This is bigotry, to want to conquer with your superior beliefs. While I do care if my own family is Christian---and that would haunt me if they were not, what do I care about forcing others to be me? You either win people who are willing to look at your religion or what makes you tick...not lame platitudes of "truth and freedom.' bah.

I know I keep quoting Chesterton, as I have only started reading him, but this quote certainly came to mind when I saw the self-righteous comment above:

Â“There is no bigot like the atheist.Â”

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 03:23 PM (baL2B)

610 I read somewhere that we are all atheists, with respect to nearly all the gods who have ever existed.

Elsewhere I read that multiple deities are a better explanation for our interaction with universe than a single omnipotent one. (Sometimes favoring us, sometimes not, often busy elsewhere; sometimes overcome by other deities with different agendas.)

Not sure I believe any of this, but it's an interesting alternative to the wither-or question posed by atheism as opposed to monotheism.

Posted by: fred at February 27, 2014 03:23 PM (C7igR)

611 Faith without reason is superstition. Reason without faith is relativism

Posted by: Fides et Ratio at February 27, 2014 03:23 PM (5l0bJ)

612 What will we move on to?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:23 PM (XyM/Y)

613 Whether atheist or not, spend a fascinating hour watching The Four Horsemen on youtube. Dennet, Hitchens, Harris, and Dawkins sitting around a table in Hitchens' apartment discussing the non-existence of God. Whatever your beliefs it will make you envious of people who have brilliant individuals as friends with whom they can exchange ideas.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 03:23 PM (/cUUk)

614 Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:19 PM (oAAzd) ============ Someone really messed you up. I'm sorry. I've been in evangelical churches / ministry for over 50 years. You say the word and I will give you my email address if you want to talk.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 03:24 PM (oMKp3)

615 Best thing I've read in a while regarding this crap. I say that as a Christian.

Also, where the hell does it say in the Bible that the earth is less than 20,000 years old?? I missed that part in all my Bible classes in high school. What some Christians believe =/= what all Christians believe. Just so you know, Seattle.

Posted by: tdpwells at February 27, 2014 03:24 PM (01otU)

616 522 ". The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ" So when you say "though never voiced" what you really mean is "what I'm making up about them to fit my narrative." The Pastor of my evangelical christian church was an expert in Bill Clinton-esque lawyese, hence "though never voiced"

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:24 PM (oAAzd)

617 Guys who lived over 900 years in the Bible:
Methuselah, Jared, Noah, Adam, Seth, Kenan and Enos.
Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 07:22 PM (P7Wsr)

And Vic, if we're to believe the headline comments most mornings ;-)

Posted by: jwb7605 [/i][/u][/s][/b] at February 27, 2014 03:24 PM (ZALPg)

618 Atheism is a belief in no God. But it's still a belief.

Yep, the logic is perfectly clear.

"There is no evidence for x,
Therefore !x" is a logical fallacy. Therefore it's not logic, it's belief.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (P7Wsr)

619 What will we move on to?

Just up these stairs, sweetie.

Posted by: madame guillotine at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (30eLQ)

620 let them help share the load to the best of their ability. for all of you. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:20 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) It is hard for me. I don't like to see them unhappy. So I hide away and tell them I'm okay. It is what it is. It is a good thing I am used to being alone, a lot of people would have gone bonkers where I've been the last few years. Right person to be in the wrong place.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (qyfb5)

621 ". We all have family stories that shape what we are and who we believe. " Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 06:54 PM (XyM/Y) ------- Â“I know who I am and who I may be, if I choose.Â” ― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote de La Mancha, Vol 1

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (OU1Hh)

622 What the militant atheist set (and yes, Seattle Slough, you do belong in that club) either fail or refuse to understand is that Christianity- like many other religions- has as it's core the tenet of faith.

Christians don't have faith because of the physical evidence for or against their beliefs, they are asked to believe in spite of it. We believe because it's difficult, not because it is easy.

If it could be proven that there is or isn't a Christian God- either by indisputable physical evidence or God Himself showing up to personally perform daily miracles on Coney Island- there would be no value at all in faith. It would be easy- we'd merely be acknowledging an obvious, provable truth. It would no longer be a religion at all.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (X9Mnx)

623 I love this! Yeah, the Christians did a wonderful job building and nurturing our Western society and with it taking the entire world into a modern era, but it's time to put Christianity to pasture; we'll take over from here.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (tyz5J)

624 581 I read somewhere that we are all atheists, with respect to nearly all the gods who have ever existed. Posted by: fred at February 27, 2014 07:23 PM (C7igR) I saw a Star Trek episode about that

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (bRL1M)

625 There's nothing to move on to, j. Literally. What are you going to give to those people who need that in their lives? Leftism? "You'll get nothing and like it"?

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (1zhvB)

626 'Do you go to an Evangelical Christian Church? That's what I found" Yes, and it couldn't be further from the truth. One of the biggest teachings across Christianity is that one should never, ever do evil in order to achieve a good result. That said, I am very sorry that you were hurt by your church experiences.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 03:25 PM (hFL/3)

627 Late to the reading room.

That was a most excellent post, Ace.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 03:26 PM (4Mv1T)

628 Do you go to an Evangelical Christian Church? That's what I found -------- I've been to multiple churches and I spent middle school in a private Christian school. I'm also what D-Lamp calls a theist agnostic. But I've experienced none of what your attributing to Christianity. You're generalizing and that is bullshit.

Posted by: Adam at February 27, 2014 03:26 PM (Aif/5)

629 But I think, in the spirit of our founding fathers, that we can move on.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:21 PM (oAAzd)

"Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness...it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof."

Posted by: Country Singer at February 27, 2014 03:26 PM (uCYHf)

630 503 I chose those two 'no brainers' because the person I was replying to chose them. Obviously, society has an interest in stopping thieves and murderers. But as an individual member of society why shouldn't I steal or kill if it serves my purposes and I can get away with it? You can argue that society would collapse and the world would go to hell if everybody thought like that, but that's not the same thing as saying it's wrong. In your view, morality is nothing but a mutual non-aggression pact. But let's go to another example. A practice that is regarded as morally wrong today but was widely accepted in the recent past: slavery. If one socially dominant group wants to enslave a less powerful group, why shouldn't they do it? Obviously large and wealthy societies are perfectly capable of coexisting with slavery.

Posted by: Paul at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (GTyB/)

631 563 An atheist is like a cannibal with a full belly. Don't worry, big fella, save that killing spree for another day. Society will unwittingly keep you fat and happy all of your days. Seriously? How did Christians deal with "witches" throughout Europe and Amercia?

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (oAAzd)

632

Another big giveaway that God exists is dark energy. It's a total hack whose only seeming purpose is to make the end of the universe look really cool (the Big Rip) See http://bit.ly/1fuHuDO

You will literally see the galaxies dissolving one by one, then the stars dissolving, then the planets, including the Earth itself. Then you. Yes, you could really go to Douglas Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe and drink champagne as you watch it all go foom. Not the cold desolate heat-death of thermodynamics and utter darkness as the last star burns out. It will be a beautiful ending, a cool ending. One that we can actually watch.

If that's random I'll eat my hat.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (d3MA1)

633 All one has to do is look at Europe to see the fruits of a secular society, specifically Sweden. Sweden is flirting with extinction, partly due to their tolerance of radical muslims.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (tyz5J)

634 Posted by: madame guillotine at February 27, 2014 07:25 PM (30eLQ) LOL. (A dark kind of laugh) Thanks.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (XyM/Y)

635 Yes, even the most basic Catechism class would have educated you into understanding that Methusaleh's "life" as referenced in the OT is in deference to his and his line's prominence and influence. Need to know how to read, otherwise it's pretty accessible. Pretty sure every 5th grade CCD booklet will clear that right up for you. Hate to think you based a lifetime's philosophy on objecting to an obvious allegory. That's just sad.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (ZshNr)

636 Something that Penn Gillette said recently in a TV interview is relevant. He said that in doing his famous show (with the profane name) he developed an appreciation for Christianity. He said he could poke fun at them all he wanted, and some would get mad, but few (if any) would actually try to come and harm him. In contrast, when it came to Islam, he said they would have liked to poke fun at it six ways from Sunday, but - as he put it - "We have families".

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 03:27 PM (saDM3)

637 But let's go to another example. A practice that is regarded as morally wrong today but was widely accepted in the recent past: slavery. If one socially dominant group wants to enslave a less powerful group, why shouldn't they do it? Obviously large and wealthy societies are perfectly capable of coexisting with slavery. Posted by: Paul at February 27, 2014 07:27 PM (GTyB/) There are more slaves today then in the past. It's is widely accepted except for the West

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (bRL1M)

638

Willow: Best wishes for you and your kids, sorry to hear it.

So no one can dispute any of the Bible stories??? I thought that would be a huge softball.

From the flood, to Moses, to even the 7 days of creation, evidence of all are found independent of Judea. Fun stuff eh?

I mean 7 days of creation. What are the chances two unconnected people/civilizations go for that number?? At the same time no less! lol Crazy town.

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (tVTLU)

639 What will we move on to?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 07:23 PM (XyM/Y)

The fundamental question!

If nothing else, athiests should at least recognize Pascal's Wager.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (QFxY5)

640 atheism is just another religious belief.

Posted by: redc1c4 at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (q+fqH)

641 ... but I believe, I think, in God, and know that evolution is a fact, .... Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo Evolution is still theory. That we can look at the fossils, various species of birds, the variations among animals in disparate island chains as observable RESULTS. But no one has yet to explain the process which is a different kettle of fish. That I can see a motor running but can't explain the internal combustion mechanism underlying it, leaves it at theory. If I can explain the inner workings, then I know the underlying facts and figures its no longer theory. Eventually we will know the process. Genetic developments in the sciences will eventually have a reproducible mechanism that explains it all. Just give it a few years.

Posted by: PissAntinPA at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (RHBWt)

642 Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM..................Today I had a wonderful day. I got to take my youngest daughter on her field trip to the science museum. It was fantastic. Seeing the complex process of things from items we use in our daily life but the complexity of the process of nature and how mind blowing seemingly simple things like cutting your finger, or sneezing and how your body reacts. The truth is that none of that could have been an accident my friend. It took an intelligent being to design that and it wasn't man. I appreciated every second of it and saw today as a gift.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (/o+xv)

643 Do you know how many "witches" were actually killed back then?

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (tyz5J)

644 598 Late to the reading room.
That was a most excellent post, Ace.
Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 07:26 PM (4Mv1T)

Ace is the only blogger I'm aware of who isn't bothered that most of us believe in God, and most of us aren't bothered that he doesn't.

I wish that were commonplace.

Posted by: jwb7605 [/i][/u][/s][/b] at February 27, 2014 03:28 PM (ZALPg)

645 But I think, in the spirit of our founding fathers, that we can move on.

The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty; and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments....We waste so much time and money in punishing crimes, and take so little pains to prevent them. We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity, by means of the Bible; for this divine book, above all others favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws. --Benjamin Rush, Founding Father

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:29 PM (P7Wsr)

646 575 What are examples of doing "Anything" to advance the cause of Christ and what did the pastor use as Biblical justification for it? Are you sure it wasn't a cult? Treating people cruelly. It may have been a cult. They called themselves Eastern Hills Bible Church in Manlius, NY, North Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, NY, and Faith Heritage School in Syracuse, NY

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:29 PM (oAAzd)

647 Late to the party here, but Ace's points about Vanity lead me to think he might really like the Book of Ecclesiastes. Because one of its central themes is about the folly of vanity.

And who knows, maybe the "this is why letting go and deferring to God" theme might be appealing too.

Posted by: They Can't Have My French Fries at February 27, 2014 03:29 PM (BeNAf)

648 Right person to be in the wrong place. Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 27, 2014 07:25 PM (qyfb5) that's actually an interesting statement by itself. one of those mysteries of life and why i'm eternally on the search to why. and meaning. and although i understand you reasoning to not have your loved ones fret too much. perhaps you might actually need them when things are looking more grim personally for you in forbearance. Too lift You back up to fight.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:29 PM (nqBYe)

649 Fenelon: thanks for understanding the post as, um, gallows humour and not as anything personal against you. :^)

We'll not see eye to eye on philosophy, but fwiw (which is little enough) you're one of the better 'ettes on here

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:30 PM (30eLQ)

650 Coming out of lurking... Afraid I'm not much help now, Ace won't read. "Slough" is another word for "slew". Seattle Slew was a Thoroughbred horse who won the Triple Crown in 1977. So the troll knows that. Not that it matters. *goes back to lurking*

Posted by: La Troienne at February 27, 2014 03:30 PM (YiJ5W)

651 Evangelical Bible based Church: 16 years
Conservative Christian School: 4 years
I calls it like I see it.

Here's the thing, buddy. There are good Christians. Lots of 'em. But there's also tons of bad ones. And they hurt people. Especiallly kids.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:17 PM (oAAzd)

And you claim that the prevailing thought of all of them is that you can do whatever you want if you think you're doing it for Christ.

You are a dishonest little shit.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 03:30 PM (LI48c)

652 Today I had a wonderful day. I got to take my youngest daughter on her field trip to the science museum. It was fantastic. Seeing the complex process of things from items we use in our daily life but the complexity of the process of nature and how mind blowing seemingly simple things like cutting your finger, or sneezing and how your body reacts. The truth is that none of that could have been an accident my friend. It took an intelligent being to design that and it wasn't man. I appreciated every second of it and saw today as a gift. We're not so dissimilar.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:30 PM (oAAzd)

653 >>>Seriously? How did Christians deal with "witches" throughout Europe and Amercia?<<<

Salt and pepper and fire?

Posted by: Fritz at February 27, 2014 03:31 PM (PnMCP)

654 Do you know how many "witches" were actually killed back then?

***

Too many.

Posted by: cool arrow at February 27, 2014 03:31 PM (Dqdyh)

655 Posted by: PissAntinPA at February 27, 2014 07:28 PM (RHBWt)

No, evolution is a fact.

The various explanations are theories, backed by varying amounts of data.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:31 PM (QFxY5)

656 625 Do you know how many "witches" were actually killed back then? *** Too many. Posted by: cool arrow at February 27, 2014 07:31 PM (Dqdyh) that's what happens when you turn people into newts

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (bRL1M)

657 I would put it this way... within the last 20,000 years, humans may have become what they are today, because of a more powerful being from above.

I'm not saying it was aliens

But it was Ancient Aliens

thus you would both be correct...

Posted by: Giorgio Tsoukalos at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (Q6pxP)

658 you cannot every moment be Tough. or perhaps you can. but i found that a whispery sadness. and should not be so.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (nqBYe)

659 People who say atheism is just another belief are like those who say atoothfairyism is just another belief.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (/cUUk)

660 that's what happens when you turn people into newts

***

I got better...

Posted by: cool arrow at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (Dqdyh)

661 1. There's no such thing as an atheist. Everyone believes in something.

2. There's no such thing as a True believer. No one knows it all. There is, however, only one True God.

3. Everyone is degrees of agnostic. This allows for ideas and exchanges.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (KQp38)

662 The answer is very few, like under 10. Or something like that.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (tyz5J)

663 No, evolution is a fact.

Micro-evolution is a fact.

Macro-evolution is a theory.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:32 PM (P7Wsr)

664 Sweden is flirting with extinction, partly due to their tolerance of radical muslims.

And Ikea. Don't forget Ikea.

Posted by: pep at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (6TB1Z)

665 Excellent, thoughtful post.

Seattle Slough's series of questions seems, if not trollish, at least from the leftist playbook. One of the things that annoys me about the modern Left is their determination not to think. In support of that, they try to accumulate reasons (actually caricatures and insults) that free them from having to think about whole areas of human knowledge, such as conservatism, anti-statism, and religion. When they do this, they are playing right out of the Troll Playbook: specifically, Read Until Offended.

I've corresponded with people like this. You write them ten paragraphs of thoughtful response to their rants, and they come back with all of one sentence about how you disrespected MSNBC in Paragraph 2, and "What About Faux News?!?"

Posted by: Splunge at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (qyomX)

666 Oh. Lord . W'ere now going to have a long list of crimes Christians have done through the centuries and they have, but nothing about all the good they have done which can be found in the Book "What Has Christianity ever done for Us? Here's a hint-printing press, major works of art and music, started Universities and hospitals to name a few. Communism stifled and oppressed religion and killed millions,. Stalinism was specifically anti religious. It was a tenet. I'm out.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (XyM/Y)

667 j169, I'm sorry that I was dismissive earlier about your experiences. While they are certainly NOT representative of Christianity, I won't deny that your congregation may believe or preach unbiblical ideas. You might want to check out http://www.spiritualabuse.com/

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (hFL/3)

668 Then I guess these leaders of our era are fools:

Barack Obama (went to church for 20 years with Rev. Wright)
Bill Clinton, known to carry his bible
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jimmy Carter
Bishop Desmond Tutu
John Kennedy
Ted Kennedy
John Kerry
George McGovern
Eugene McCarthy
Martin Sheen

Posted by: hamitchell at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (yY/3g)

669 2. There's no such thing as a True believer. No one knows it all. There is, however, only one True God. Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 07:32 PM (KQp3

One Living God

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (bRL1M)

670 The answer is very few, like under 10. Or something like that.

***

Still too many.

Posted by: cool arrow at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (Dqdyh)

671 If nothing else, athiests should at least recognize Pascal's Wager. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 07:28 PM (QFxY5) amen

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:33 PM (nqBYe)

672 Awesome post Ace...my favorite is from Willow...

there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.

Within you and without you...heavy duty

Posted by: dumbartist at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (ahBY0)

673 522 ". The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ" So when you say "though never voiced" what you really mean is "what I'm making up about them to fit my narrative." Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 07:10 PM (hFL/3) -- Well said Lauren! You nailed a frequent pattern -1---------------------- Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 06:53 PM (oMKp3) Beautifully expressed dear one. Your joy shines through. It is about our relationship with The Lord, not religious programming and rituals

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (OU1Hh)

674 Atheism is not a "belief." It is a disbelief or skepticism in something that cannot be proven. The burden of proof is always on the person who is making the claim. You cannot prove a negative. For instance someone could believe in unicorns. If I choose not to believe in unicorns, that does not mean I have a belief or that I should prove that unicorns do not exist.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (/cUUk)

675 Still too many. Posted by: cool arrow at February 27, 2014 07:33 PM (Dqdyh) Allen Howard Godbey, (1974): "Genghis Khan is estimated to have destroyed twenty million people, Tamerlane twelve million."

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (bRL1M)

676 599 Do you go to an Evangelical Christian Church? That's what I found -------- I've been to multiple churches and I spent middle school in a private Christian school. I'm also what D-Lamp calls a theist agnostic. But I've experienced none of what your attributing to Christianity. You're generalizing and that is bullshit. I write based on my personal experiences. If my experiences don't match yours...great! But don't belittle what shit I went through.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (oAAzd)

677 The Pastor of my evangelical christian church was an expert in Bill Clinton-esque lawyese, hence "though never voiced" Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:24 PM Well then sadly you had someone leading who failed. He's human and flawed. Sadly it hurts a little more, when those that are supposed to lead and set the example fail. But we're all human and we all fail. Like I said earlier. I have had my heart broken by women and been betrayed by friends. Yet I still love and still have friends. How I react to that betrayal is up to me. Unless you're looking for an excuse not to love again. At which point you can close yourself off which is not a good way to go through life IMHO.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (/o+xv)

678 Only Islam has a higher body count than does atheism.

Wanna bet?

Posted by: mao at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (xm1A1)

679 one of those mysteries of life and why i'm eternally on the search to why. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:29 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) I really appreciate you, willow. Though I've kind of given up on the why, for reasons a little too complicated to get into. There is just the how (not that I know that either). I hope you have someone to lean on, other than Morons - a shifty bunch, that lot.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:35 PM (qyfb5)

680 One Living God Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 07:33 PM

Mike, Life comes through Truth, which is another aspect no one can understand.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 03:36 PM (KQp38)

681 Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 07:32 PM (P7Wsr)

Nope.

Do we need to step outside?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:36 PM (QFxY5)

682 I am a Christian, and perhaps a fool. Pretty curious, too.

If I'm required to PROVE the Invisible Force that I believe controls the universe to skeptics, then perhaps someone can do something more than just observe the following also invisible forces, and describe them mathematically. Tell me WHY these work:

1. The invisible force that keeps my feet on the ground and the planet orbiting the sun;

2. The invisible force that keeps my molecules from flying apart; and,

3. The invisible force in my head that allows me to be conscious.

Also, please give me 10,000 words on why I should believe Darwinian Evolution when Darwin himself wouldn't believe it based on the proven fact of irreducible complexity in life-forms. He said himself that if irreducible complexity existed, then he was wrong.

Oh, and tell me WHY all the major rules of how things operate in the universe are so finely tuned that if even one of them was different by .0001%, the universe would not exist.

Also, please explain HOW complex life just created itself out of nothing, taking into account the concept that relentless entropy ALWAYS breaks things down.

And, finally, using your best Carl Sagan voice, tell me WHAT existed BEFORE that "infinitely hot, infinitely dense, infinitely tiny point in space" exploded in the Big Bang, and how whatever that was got there.

As a Christian, I shouldn't have to prove any of my beliefs to anyone or belittled because I believe them. None of the questions above have come even CLOSE to being answered by "scientists".

Posted by: Sharkman at February 27, 2014 03:36 PM (TM1p8)

683 But what are you when you make it your mission to make sure no one else believes in unicorns?

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:36 PM (tyz5J)

684 Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.

Creatures of Light and Darkness Â© 1969 Roger Zelazny

Posted by: cthulhu at February 27, 2014 03:37 PM (T1005)

685 Ace's points about Vanity lead me to think he might really like the Book of Ecclesiastes. Because one of its central themes is about the folly of vanity.

Oh, sure, give him all the credit.

Posted by: Savonarola at February 27, 2014 03:37 PM (6TB1Z)

686 Ace is the only blogger I'm aware of who isn't bothered that most of us believe in God, and most of us aren't bothered that he doesn't.

I wish that were commonplace.
Posted by: jwb7605
-------------------------------------------------------

I thought exactly the same thing after reading his post.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 03:37 PM (4Mv1T)

687

The perfect post for my all time favorite joke:

What do you call an agnostic dyslexic insomniac?

Someone who stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 27, 2014 03:37 PM (gorVZ)

688 651 One Living God Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 07:33 PM Mike, Life comes through Truth, which is another aspect no one can understand. Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 07:36 PM (KQp3

My statement was adding not subtracting from your statement

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:37 PM (bRL1M)

689 Atheism is not a "belief." It is a disbelief or skepticism in something that cannot be proven. The burden of proof is always on the person who is making the claim.

Nope. It's a belief in the following logical fallacy.

There is no evidence for x
Therefore not x.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:37 PM (P7Wsr)

690 Vanity is the name of ace's favorite stripper.

Posted by: garrett at February 27, 2014 03:38 PM (wnwiA)

691 What Has Christianity ever done for Us? Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 07:33 PM And the bloody Romans! What have they ever done for us?

Posted by: Judean Peoples Front at February 27, 2014 03:38 PM (/o+xv)

692 FWIW, I pulled 20,000 out of my rear end because the real number Bible believing Christians accept is much smaller and I wanted to give myself a nice cushion.

The Biblical age of Earth is based on the chronologies in the Bible which painstakingly go through from Adam to the final deportation of the Jews in 584 BC. This was originally done by Archbishop James Ussher in the 1600s. If the Bible is accurate, according to Ussher, the date of Creation is October 23, 4004 BC.

You see, all those begats are also provided with ages. Adam begat Seth when he was 130. Seth begat Enos when he was 105. Enos begat Cainan when he was 90. Etc. In this way, we can conclude that Noah was born in 2948 BC. Abraham in 1996 BC. This continues all the way to the fall of Jerusalem in 584 BC.

That means the Earth is 6018 years old.

It's laughable. But nonetheless, if you believe the Bible is accurate, that is the age of the Earth. (give or take) All of that time, from Creation to the fall of Jerusalem (which is an historical event) is accounted for in the Bible.

Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (mCz8+)

693 Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 07:37 PM (P7Wsr)

Agreed.

There is no other way to describe it logically.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (QFxY5)

694 @601 "I chose those two 'no brainers' because the person I was replying to chose them. Obviously, society has an interest in stopping thieves and murderers. But as an individual member of society why shouldn't I steal or kill if it serves my purposes and I can get away with it? You can argue that society would collapse and the world would go to hell if everybody thought like that, but that's not the same thing as saying it's wrong. In your view, morality is nothing but a mutual non-aggression pact. ..." Wow, does that really have to be explained? You must have some serious larceny in your heart! (You're a liberal, aren't you?) Any half-way decent parent would teach a kid not to focus on "getting away with it", because they know its like crack - something for nothing is irresistible. You WILL get caught, eventually, and the cost will not be worth it - because civilization cannot tolerate it, and so must make the cost too high. Beyond that, living with the fear of possibly being found out is detrimental to your life. Reality is a little more complicated, but isn't a supernatural bogey-man a bit childish? And doesn't that leave you at the mercy of some becloaked holy-man, who says he's got the answers, but really can't know any better than you. So, yeah, it absolutely is "same thing as saying it's wrong", but the "non-aggression pact" thing is a bit over-simplified.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (saDM3)

695 Please Lord, just give me one Atheist (aside from the ones I already commended) that doesn't feel a need to mention Unicorns or Santa. Clearly people who say that are not interested in dialogue with Theists even if they do have the same political views.. I don't recognize a lot of these handles so they must have just come here to snark at Christians.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (XyM/Y)

696 Ace, you are called. Pick up the phone.

Posted by: Lady Billingsgate at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (/KEMR)

697 662 What Has Christianity ever done for Us? Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 07:33 PM And the bloody Romans! What have they ever done for us? Posted by: Judean Peoples Front at February 27, 2014 07:38 PM (/o+xv) Sod off!

Posted by: Peoples Front of Judean at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (bRL1M)

698 Three more hours of this post?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (DmNpO)

699 The Catholic Church accepts evolution as real (but guided by God), which I guess means they don't believe the Bible is divine truth.

Posted by: Justin at February 27, 2014 05:50 PM (7KXNY)

No, the Church states that evolution is compatible with the Christian view.

Posted by: Dandolo at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (0XBx+)

700 Nope.

Do we need to step outside?

No need. Can you point me to some literature?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (P7Wsr)

701 Oh. Atheist. I thought the post was about being an Analist.

Posted by: Pajama Boy at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (8ZskC)

702 None of you youngsters will remember this but Bill Cosby did a great skit about Noah and the Ark Posted by: MikeH

Not a youngster. Saw it on the color TV after Vic chased me off his lawn.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:39 PM (DL2i+)

703 I hope you have someone to lean on, other than Morons - a shifty bunch, that lot. Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 27, 2014 07:35 PM (qyfb5) I have a wonderful Rabbi. and morons are not to be taken so lightlly, although we are a rabble rousing group of fickle souls. most of us will do what we are able to another fickle soul in need.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:40 PM (nqBYe)

704 Atheism is not a "belief." It is a disbelief or skepticism in something that cannot be proven. The burden of proof is always on the person who is making the claim. You cannot prove a negative. For instance someone could believe in unicorns. If I choose not to believe in unicorns, that does not mean I have a belief or that I should prove that unicorns do not exist. Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller
-----------------------------

As a believer, I disagree. My very best friend is an agnostic. The only reason he does claim atheism is because he is convinced it takes more faith to believe there is NO god, than to believe there is.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 03:40 PM (4Mv1T)

705 Dark energy is a total hack. Nothing in the Standard Model explains it. There's no reason for it. It's just there. There is no force carrier particle. It actually is an intrinsic part of space itself. And it's perfectly balanced.

DE is total kludge, basically to make the end of the universe look really cool ( http://bit.ly/1fuHuDO ).

See the YouTube video on DE at http://bit.ly/MzLSKZ

That ain't random.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 03:40 PM (d3MA1)

706 Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 07:35 PM

It's a belief in your own mental omniscience that you have the ability to disprove the existence of a higher power by ignoring the incredible complexity of the universe.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 03:40 PM (KQp38)

707 does NOT claim atheism - sorry

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 03:40 PM (4Mv1T)

708 #642 Pascal's Wager is a silly argument and quite insulting to the idea of an omniscient god. Plus it is an amoral stance. What it means is that you choose to believe so as to play the odds and that when you die the deity will not know that was your reason for believing in him. You would think the deity would be more likely to honor truthfulness and integrity, wouldn't you? I would think he would despise the pragmatic amorality of Pascal's Wager. I also would think that any all-powerful all-knowing deity would be beyond jealousy and the desire to be worshiped. He or She would be above such petty needs.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 03:42 PM (/cUUk)

709 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 27, 2014 07:39 PM (DmNpO) Plenty of time for the more snark from militant Atheists. ;^)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 03:42 PM (XyM/Y)

710 What's laughable, you ninny, is adding up all the begats in the first place! The information you and your asshole friends have gathered is utterly irrelevant.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:43 PM (tyz5J)

711 Well all. Off to do stuff. Adieu.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 03:43 PM (/o+xv)

712

Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 07:37 PM (P7Wsr)

If there is no evidence for x, then whether or not people believe x is entirely a matter of faith. Smart atheists are not against the principles of some religion or other but against faith in general. Proper atheism is doubt, unending doubt.

It's also helpful to distinguish between gnostic atheists (there is definitely no god) and agnostic atheists (we have no way of knowing for sure, but there's no reason to believe in god).

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:43 PM (1zhvB)

713 If nothing else, athiests should at least recognize Pascal's Wager. $20 to win on #3 in the 8th at Santa Anita?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 27, 2014 03:43 PM (Kl6VT)

714 willow *big hugs*

Posted by: DangerGirl at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (GrtrJ)

715 Seattle Slough, Ace might not remember you as a nasty shit but I do.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (tyz5J)

716 Can you point me to some literature?

Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 07:39 PM (P7Wsr)

It's the same data.

Microevolution is incremental changes within a species (allele frequency changes).

Macroevolution is exactly the same thing, but on a longer time-frame that allows branching. All of those incremental changes add up to a new species.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (QFxY5)

717 i dunno if it's been said. i personally don't expect atheists to feel differently than they do today, and i hope that dialogue stays open on other topics that we meet ideologically. and fk you if you're hair is still standing all up . because remember we are on ace's site and it's a given. tea with a shot of sumthing sumthing or other.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (nqBYe)

718 It's laughable. But nonetheless, if you believe the Bible is accurate, that is the age of the Earth. (give or take) All of that time, from Creation to the fall of Jerusalem (which is an historical event) is accounted for in the Bible.
Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 07:39 PM

That not what Genesis says. It says the earth was created and then (later) became chaos. From this it's pretty easy to conclude that it was created some time before Adam.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (KQp38)

719 Damn, I guess Ace's target is silent. Maybe he is in the ER with a splinter.

Posted by: butternut at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (+8yte)

720 It's a belief in your own mental omniscience that you have the ability to disprove the existence of a higher power by ignoring the incredible complexity of the universe.

He didn't disprove anything; he simply assumed he couldn't prove it and went on from there.

And now, you're namecalling, calling him arrogant.

/see, this is why I always had a problem with Christianity - because it spawns Christians. Christians too often end up like this. Too many Christians assume non-Christians are morally wrong, not just wrong on the facts. Too many Christians channel their us-versus-them tribal instinct into defining non-Christians as "them", at which point woohoo! We can hate again!

I'll just disclose again here that I'm one of those who was bullied and browbeat by believing (Protestant) Christians as a child, because of the sin of holding to the "faith" of evolution (which isn't actually a faith, but whatever).

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:44 PM (30eLQ)

721 Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

Posted by: Blaise Pascal at February 27, 2014 03:45 PM (bRL1M)

722 You're all stupid. See how smart I am.

Posted by: Seattle Slouch at February 27, 2014 03:45 PM (/o+xv)

723 aw Danger ty ty. hugs back.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:45 PM (nqBYe)

724 I should probably just leave this thread alone now.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 03:45 PM (30eLQ)

725 #677 Scepticism is not arrogant. It is quite the opposite. The arrogance is on those who claim to know that which is unknowable. And then, as if that isn't enough, they claim to have god on their side and aim to proselytize and believe those who don't believe as they do are damned.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 03:46 PM (/cUUk)

726 I have a wonderful Rabbi. and morons are not to be taken so lightlly, although we are a rabble rousing group of fickle souls. most of us will do what we are able to another fickle soul in need. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:40 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) I am glad we have you!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:46 PM (qyfb5)

727 Three more hours of this post? Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse
--------------------------------------

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

This one will be like the Energizer Bunny.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 03:46 PM (4Mv1T)

728 Damn it Pixy, cough up my spaces.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:46 PM (1zhvB)

729 I would think that part of this purportedly virtuous atheism would be to try to talk their fellow atheists out of committing genocide, but that doesn't seem to be an Atheist priority. In fact, they seem prone to promulgating such slaughters. Probably just a coinkydink.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:46 PM (ZshNr)

730

Pascal's Wager is a nice atheist trap. I've sprung it several times. After you get them to buy into it, you turn it upside down and explain why it's totally and utterly wrong from a Christian perspective. Heh.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 03:46 PM (d3MA1)

731 Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

Posted by: Blaise Pascal at February 27, 2014 03:47 PM (bRL1M)

732 he real question I always have for Atheists is why they desire to take away someone else's faith. Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (oAAzd) ok, now that seemed pretty evangelistic.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:47 PM (nqBYe)

733 FWIW, I pulled 20,000 out of my rear end because the real number Bible believing Christians accept is much smaller and I wanted to give myself a nice cushion. The Biblical age of Earth is based on the chronologies in the Bible which painstakingly go through from Adam to the final deportation of the Jews in 584 BC. This was originally done by Archbishop James Ussher in the 1600s. If the Bible is accurate, according to Ussher, the date of Creation is October 23, 4004 BC. You see, all those begats are also provided with ages. Adam begat Seth when he was 130. Seth begat Enos when he was 105. Enos begat Cainan when he was 90. Etc. In this way, we can conclude that Noah was born in 2948 BC. Abraham in 1996 BC. This continues all the way to the fall of Jerusalem in 584 BC. That means the Earth is 6018 years old. It's laughable. But nonetheless, if you believe the Bible is accurate, that is the age of the Earth. (give or take) All of that time, from Creation to the fall of Jerusalem (which is an historical event) is accounted for in the Bible. My bad. And I thought I was an asshole.

Posted by: butternut at February 27, 2014 03:47 PM (+8yte)

734 Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 07:44 PM (30eLQ) ========= Good post. Yeah, sometimes Christians aren't very.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 03:47 PM (oMKp3)

735 ...because the real number Bible believing Christians accept... How many times does this need to be said so you and you shitbum friends stop lying? This is not an issue. Never was an issue in Christianity. The years do not matter. It is irrelevant. This is Your issue and Your problem with Christianity.

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:47 PM (tyz5J)

736 Three more hours of this post?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse

And here I've not even gotten around to calling anybody stupid yet.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (X9Mnx)

737 My statement was adding not subtracting from your statement Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 07:37 PM

I understand what you're saying, Mike, but there has to be a finite point. That finite point is the Truth, and it encompasses everything.

Enjoy

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (KQp38)

738 There is a God shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus.

Posted by: Blaise Pascal at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (bRL1M)

739 And people say *I* have too much time on my hands?!?!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (qyfb5)

740 "There is no other way to describe it logically. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 07:39 PM (QFxY5)" Sure there is. I see nothing resembling logic, or even an honest representation of what atheism is in this "proof" (and I'm not an atheist). By this so-called "logic," you can make any assertion you please and simply tell me that it is an article of faith on my part because I simply don't accept your assertion at face value.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (gBnkX)

741 Mein Furher is a thoughtful and pragmatic man.

Posted by: SS at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (Aif/5)

742 My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ. If it ends up that you were wrong, or did wrong, no worries -- you can be forgiven! (No matter what harm you have caused others.) Posted by: j169 ============== I see we have an atheist troll in the house

Posted by: Jay in PA at February 27, 2014 03:48 PM (7T0u2)

743 Jerusalem didn't fall. It was pushed.

Posted by: The Babylonians at February 27, 2014 03:49 PM (8ZskC)

744 Six months of jihad in Syria kills more than centuries of Inquisition unless you count the Albigensian Crusade to inflate the numbers. Just for some perspective.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:49 PM (sOtz/)

745 Soothsayer:

I think it hilarious that you think I added up those begats. Ha!

Archbishop Ussher's calculation is mainline Christianity. John Calvin, Martin Luther, even Shakespeare himself believed in an Earth younger than 10,000 years.

Gallup did a survey in 2012 and found that 45% of American believe that God created human beings less than 10,000 years ago.

And it's funny, I don't remember you at all.

Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 03:50 PM (mCz8+)

746 "It's a belief in your own mental omniscience that you have the ability to disprove the existence of a higher power by ignoring the incredible complexity of the universe." This is a gross misreading/misrepresentation of what the commenter said. The commenter wasn't claiming to disprove the existence of a higher power. The commenter was simply stating that if you're going to claim that there is a higher power, then the burden of proof is upon you.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 03:50 PM (gBnkX)

747 645 Atheism is not a "belief." It is a disbelief or skepticism in something that cannot be proven. The burden of proof is always on the person who is making the claim. You cannot prove a negative. For instance someone could believe in unicorns. If I choose not to believe in unicorns, that does not mean I have a belief or that I should prove that unicorns do not exist. Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 07:35 PM (/cUUk) ========= Atheism is indeed a belief, because it shares with all religions a core assumption: that humanity has the ability to know TO A CERTAINTY the full nature of existence.

Posted by: Sister Sestina at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (Em6d4)

748 708 My statement was adding not subtracting from your statement Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 07:37 PM I understand what you're saying, Mike, but there has to be a finite point. That finite point is the Truth, and it encompasses everything. Enjoy Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 07:48 PM (KQp3

Thanks, understand it was the Spirit within that led me to reply... I claim no glory from it... the glory belongs to Him

Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (bRL1M)

749 see we have an atheist troll in the house -------- Don't you belittle what he experienced now, what happened to him is indicative of Christianity in general. He totes promises.

Posted by: Adam at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (Aif/5)

750 he Bible says God created the heavens and the earth and everything else in six days, but what is a day to God? God's day could be a trillion years to a human."

Have to disagree with this. If God had wanted to take longer would that have not been written as such?

In the original Hebrew, The only word ever to describe the seven days is the word "yom" as in Yom Kippur.

Yom has never had any other meaning in Hebrew other that one day-night cycle. Linguists have looked. They have been mad to find a meaning other than the day-night cycle to apply to that word.

On a side note, if you believe in the story of Genesis how do you square the creation of Adam and Eve with this longer "day" Both Adam and Eve were created fully formed as adults. Adam from the dust and Eve from the rib of Adam.

They had the appearance of age but no age. I don't think this can be squared in any Biblical way.

To take it further, if you believe in a all powerful God who can create the universe, why do you think it would take him longer than whatever time he cared to do it in?

Posted by: GMB who was the soldier sitting next to her. at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (nkPV9)

751 698 This one will be like the Energizer Bunny.Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 07:46 PM (4Mv1T)
Subhuman mongrel part 2

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (kVfSG)

752 nd people say *I* have too much time on my hands?!?! Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 27, 2014 07:48 PM (qyfb5) in the spirit of the post. i will say and at least you have hands man!

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (nqBYe)

753 Posted by: Jay in PA at February 27, 2014 07:48 PM (7T0u2) ========= No, someone who got badly burned by a church experience as a young person.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (oMKp3)

754 "Atheist", in this context, is a synonym for "Unable to understand Symbolism in Ancient Literature", despite the fact that half of them probably majored in literature of some sort.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (ZshNr)

755 Aaannnd Coming round the cornah......here we go! They are at the finish.......and it's.......Charlie Browns Dildo by a nose, followed by Pascals Wager in second and Fenelon Spoke in third, followed by Seattle Slough......Please hold your tickets until all results are final...

Posted by: Track Announcer at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (/o+xv)

756 Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 07:48 PM (gBnkX)

I was speaking to the specific, correct point made by bonhomme to describe Atheism:

There is no evidence for x, therefore x is false.

That is not logically accurate.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:51 PM (QFxY5)

757 >>I would think that part of this purportedly virtuous atheism would be to try to talk their fellow atheists out of committing genocide

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 07:46 PM (ZshNr)

Holding collectives responsible for the acts of individuals is pretty shitty regardless of who does it. You didn't participate in the Inquisition and I didn't liquidate kulaks.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 03:52 PM (1zhvB)

758 I like that Ace is writing longish bits again. He's rediscovered his muse, it seems. NOW WE NEED MORE MOVIE REVIEWS

Posted by: Daily Reminder Guy at February 27, 2014 03:52 PM (6j8ke)

759 My statement was adding not subtracting from your statement Posted by: MikeH at February 27, 2014 07:37 PM er, never a jot or tittle just helping.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 03:53 PM (nqBYe)

760 Sure there is. I see nothing resembling logic, or even an honest representation of what atheism is in this "proof" (and I'm not an atheist).

By this so-called "logic," you can make any assertion you please and simply tell me that it is an article of faith on my part because I simply don't accept your assertion at face value.

The logical and scientific position concerning an unproven assertion is "unknown". Not false.

It is an article of faith to assume false when evidence is lacking. The logic is perfect.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 03:53 PM (P7Wsr)

761

Posted by: Adam at February 27, 2014 03:53 PM (Aif/5)

762 BARREL!!

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (4Mv1T)

763 Yet I'm held to the standards of the worst of historical Catholic oppression, from the Crusades to the Inquisition. How often does Bill Nye get tied to the Killing Fields?

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (ZshNr)

764 Damn!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (QFxY5)

765 CBD invited the Italicans.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (8ZskC)

766 You mean this wasn't a movie review. Better go back and read

Posted by: Phillip Seymour Hoffman at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (Q6pxP)

767 Archbishop Ussher's calculation is mainline Christianity. First, who? Second, is "mainline Christianity" according to whom, Richard Dawkins?

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (tyz5J)

768 How many loaves and fishes are there in the barrel?

Posted by: Sister Sestina at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (Em6d4)

769 Who begat all the pointy elbows?

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (vHRtU)

770 @704 Nice little hyper-literalist strawman based on a single clergyman you've got there. I choose to reject your fundamentalist atheist interpretation of the Bible.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:54 PM (sOtz/)

771 It's not vanity, it's hubris.

Posted by: Walter Cronanty at February 27, 2014 03:55 PM (+G5k2)

772 in the spirit of the post. i will say and at least you have hands man! Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 07:51 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) True, dat. And I close my tags.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 03:55 PM (qyfb5)

773 #660 "There is no evidence for x Therefore not x." Posted by: bonhomme Let me try this then. "There is not evidence for unicorns, therefore no unicorns." You stated that that sentence (substituting unicorns for x) is a "logical fallacy." Or would you insist that I should believe in unicorns since there is no evidence that they do not exist? Should I believe in the tooth fairy since there is no evidence that he does not exist? Should I believe in Zeus and/or Allah since there is no evidence that they do not exist? Now lecture me again about "logical fallacies."

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 03:55 PM (/cUUk)

774 It is an article of faith to assume false when evidence is lacking. The logic is perfect.

Posted by: bonhomme at February 27, 2014 07:53 PM (P7Wsr)

I believe that is called, "Game, Set, Match."

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:55 PM (QFxY5)

775 Has this post reached it's inevitable kumbaya moment yet?

Posted by: naturalfake at February 27, 2014 03:56 PM (0cMkb)

776 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 07:51 PM (QFxY5) Yes, but he was making that as a claim that described atheism, which was inaccurate. Unless I misread him, which certainly isn't beyond me to do.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 03:56 PM (gBnkX)

777 I have to wonder how many people prior to 1800, say, claimed to be devout christians but really were not. Keep in mind that in medieval times, you could be excommunicated, lose your head, job, etc. if you said you were an atheist. And, by the way, the Jews did that to their own kind as well. It was quite popular back then. Not sure why the Muslims never dropped this.

Posted by: sexypig at February 27, 2014 03:56 PM (dZQh7)

778 715 Six months of jihad in Syria kills more than centuries of Inquisition unless you count the Albigensian Crusade to inflate the numbers.

Just for some perspective.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 07:49 PM (sOtz/)

The Inquisition and Crusades are completely different things. And yeah the Inquisition does have a very low body count, because its goal wasn't to kill people or non-believers, but to correct peoples' heresies and return them to the flock. And when it got out of hand is when the church lost its control over it and it became a tool of the monarchy. Probably actually saved the lives of some people since the solution to witchcraft accusations in Spain wasn't to burn them at the stake.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 03:56 PM (LI48c)

779 I love this! The time devoted to all this research by the Atheists, led by their pope Richard Dawkins, is impressive. It's so damn important to them!!

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 03:56 PM (tyz5J)

780 Man I am tired of all the begatting.

Posted by: Pointy Elbowed Chicken at February 27, 2014 03:57 PM (/o+xv)

781

1. God definitely exists. And I can prove it. Hint: The Hubble Ultra Deep Field. The UDF is impossible without a super-finely tuned matter density gradient and alpha opacity function that is absolutely perfect. The UDF does not require the Anthropic Principle. (AP is the last, desperate, refuge of the cornered atheist.) The UDF is basically God showing off. I think He likes to do that a lot.

2. We are living in a universe created by Him. Our universe has basic minimal rules and structure (a closed simulation, like a video game.) Ask a physicist how elegant and minimalist it all is. Gravity is the ugly duckling of the four forces, seemingly a standalone force, with weird behavior at cosmological distances. I believe that was needed to make it all work. (Dark matter is a design hack.) Meanwhile, dark energy gives us the Big Rip, which is a totally cool way to end the story. It will be visible. You will literally see the galaxies dissolving one by one, then the stars, then the planets, then the Earth itself. Again this is God showing off. (See a pattern?)

3. Item 2 implies that a higher level of reality exists somewhere (running the video game). Call this Heaven, or whatever.

4. Item 3 implies there is no way for you to reach Heaven on your own. It would be like a video game character trying to step out of the screen. (Secular Humanists and Gene Roddenberry think this way.)

5. Item 4 implies you must be pulled up. No way to get there on your own. Instead, God shoved His own hand inside the screen, over 2000 years ago, to grab us and pull us up. Why? Dunno. Grace. (Aside: The difference between Christianity and Buddhism is that I think God wants friends to chat with. The Buddhist wants to merge with the Godhead and lose self-identity.)

6. I strongly suspect there is a chain of these higher realities, possibly transfinite. God lives up at the top, the apex of this infinite ladder. (The Continuum Hypothesis is true.) Why? Because the math is elegant, and it is the only way for Georg Cantor to defeat Kurt GÃ¶del. But it requires CH for it to work. The atheist denies CH. That is an unsupported and unprovable assumption. (It is really fascinating how the atheist/deist divide strongly correlates to each mathematician's position on CH. See the Wikipedia article.)

7. God is definitely watching you. Why? The video game analogy. But there is an even better way to prove it: Observation is the key to Quantum Mechanics. We are living inside a closed QM system with a collapsible wave function. So who collapsed it? Answer: Whoever observed us from outside the box. So, like SchrÃ¶dinger's cat, we are alive and not dead. We are literally alive because of Him. (That's a pun.) Yeah, I'm oversimplifying a bit. Observation is the key to everything. I say 'I think, therefore I am,' and since I am aware of myself right at this moment, therefore somebody must be observing me doing it. QED.

8. God wants a relationship with you. Why? Because you are hardwired for it. You feel it. You are an instinctive seeker. No other animal thinks this way.

That's basically it.

You can work out the rest for yourself. God gave you eyes and a brain. It's all obvious. You can work out all the deep philosophical questions of life from the above: the question of free will, the two-way communication backchannel called prayer, the problem of evil, how salvation really works, pretty much everything.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 03:57 PM (d3MA1)

782 Very nicely said, Ace.

Posted by: Jack Burton Mercer at February 27, 2014 03:57 PM (7NgYX)

783 What does a day mean before earth exists?

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 03:57 PM (sOtz/)

784 He didn't disprove anything; he simply assumed he couldn't prove it and went on from there.

And now, you're namecalling, calling him arrogant.Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 07:44 PM

I didn't call him arrogant. And an assumption that he can't prove anything, then relying on that as (here it comes again) Truth gives him no credibility in assuming that no deity exists. It's simple laziness.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 03:58 PM (KQp38)

785 Nope. It's a belief in the following logical fallacy.

There is no evidence for x
Therefore not x.

No, you're missing a line between those two:

There is evidence for y

If you have faith as a Christian, you by definition believe in the supernatural. Parting the Red Sea? Not natural. Walking on water or turning water into wine? Not natural. Rising from the dead? Not natural.

And that's OK. I believe God sent Jesus, that he performed the supernatural (miracles, creation of all things), that there is no way to prove any of it, and until He returns there never will be a way to conclusively prove it.

If He wanted us to believe based on currently observable facts, He would provide such evidence. Instead, we are asked to believe without it. Is that rationalization? Yes, it is, and I'm OK with it.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 03:58 PM (X9Mnx)

786 Has this post reached it's inevitable kumbaya moment yet? Posted by: naturalfake at February 27, 2014 07:56 PM ........Let us all now partake in the cock cake.

Posted by: Gay Baker Singing Kumbaya at February 27, 2014 03:59 PM (/o+xv)

787 And it's funny, I don't remember you at all. Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 07:50 PM (mCz8+) ********* Blame it on the "performance" enhancers.

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 03:59 PM (RJMhd)

788 Now lecture me again about "logical fallacies."

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 07:55 PM (/cUUk)

I'll lecture you about reading comprehension first.

There is nothing in bonhomme's statement that requires you to believe in anything. Quite the contrary, he is simply proving that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

If you choose to believe in unicorns in the absence of any evidence of their existence, that is your prerogative. It is an unknown, and therefore subject to faith or dismissal or anything in between.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 27, 2014 03:59 PM (QFxY5)

789 Those questions simply set up a false dichotomy. It's very easy to answer "no" to those questions and still affirm the Bible as divine truth... without contradicting oneself. This is something which Seattle Slough should already know, if he's interested in informing himself. Study the views of people who disagree with you and don't just consume the junk from "internet infidel" types.

Posted by: Mozam at February 27, 2014 03:59 PM (A5oSi)

790 Well there is one indisputable truth and that is that life truly exists in the Universe, and humanity stands as a sad testament as to its progression if it is indeed confined to this planet alone, regardless of creation, evolution, or mere happenstance.

Posted by: KG at February 27, 2014 04:00 PM (djA64)

791 "Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old? Do you believe in a world-wide flood? Do you deny the theory of evolution? " Wow, Ace, can you get any more simplistic? "world-wide flood" or do you mean the 'known' world-wide flood? When you say 20,000 years, do you mean years relative to a point in space billions of light years away or relative to earth? Some science shows that you can, umm, bend time as it were making a year last, well, almost forever. (see how important reference points are?) Do you even know the 'theory of evolution'? Or have you come to believe that the 'THEORY' only means that people evolved from apes? There is room to believe there is truth to the unproven "theory of evolution" as well as truth to divine creationism. Anyhow, as I've pointed out, it is not as simple as saying if you answer 'no' or 'yes to one' that you fit into a certain category.

Posted by: doug at February 27, 2014 04:00 PM (uJ8q7)

792 Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 07:39 PM (mCz8+)

Oh. Well if James Ussher said it......

Yeah no idea who that guy was.

Some Christians believe that time referenced in the Bible was not literal - i.e. creation taking literally 7 days. Are we exempt from your 'fool' label?

You realise that you just took the word of a guy from the 1600s as theological fact, and applied it to every single Christian on earth. Well done, you. But I'm the fool.

Good God, man, you get a bunch of Christians in a room together, and you'd be hard pressed to find even two that believe exactly the same thing about every. single. thing. pertaining to their faith and the Bible. Just because your side can't handle disagreement.......we're not all you.

Posted by: tdpwells at February 27, 2014 04:00 PM (01otU)

793 I have to wonder how many people prior to 1800, say, claimed to be devout christians but really were not. Keep in mind that in medieval times, you could be excommunicated, lose your head, job, etc. if you said you were an atheist. And, by the way, the Jews did that to their own kind as well. It was quite popular back then. Not sure why the Muslims never dropped this. Posted by: sexypig at February 27, 2014 07:56 PM (dZQh7) or N koreans, today. yeah

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:01 PM (nqBYe)

794 willow...my prayers for you and family.

Would they die for their non-beliefs that are so pressing and important? No? I would die for my belief in God, and that Jesus died for my sins.

I am a Christian. Not sure why that should bother anyone in our country. Nothing you say changes that.

May the peace of God touch your souls. May you read others who doubted like C.S. Lewis or C.K. Chesterton. Read the Bible, the holy Word of God. May your mind not go in circles worrying about creation and other issues when faith is that freedom you speak of. God does hear your fears that keep you up at night, and He loves you. xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 04:01 PM (baL2B)

795 "The logical and scientific position concerning an unproven assertion is "unknown". Not false. It is an article of faith to assume false when evidence is lacking. The logic is perfect." By this "perfect" logic then, Santa Claus* is an unknown. While this might be considered by some to be technically correct from a logical standpoint, it's hardly useful. *No meaningful comparison of religion to Santa Claus intended, only for argument's sake.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 04:01 PM (gBnkX)

796 @"653 I am a Christian, and perhaps a fool. Pretty curious, too. If I'm required to PROVE the Invisible Force that I believe controls the universe to skeptics, then perhaps someone can do something more than just observe the following also invisible forces, and describe them mathematically. Tell me WHY these work: ... Also, please explain HOW complex life just created itself out of nothing, taking into account the concept that relentless entropy ALWAYS breaks things down. And, finally, using your best Carl Sagan voice, tell me WHAT existed BEFORE that "infinitely hot, infinitely dense, infinitely tiny point in space" exploded in the Big Bang, and how whatever that was got there. As a Christian, I shouldn't have to prove any of my beliefs to anyone or belittled because I believe them. None of the questions above have come even CLOSE to being answered by 'scientists'. " (1) Why would you expect anybody to believe anything you say, if you offer no proof? (2) There is no "WHY", which requires some sort of goal or purpose, in science. Science simply tries to find an explanation for HOW things work. Unthinking things. Things without goals. Rocks! If you find a "scientist" to answer those questions, they're no scientist at all. (3) The Big Bang theory has got problems, and is practically a religion in of itself. They'd probably say "space did not exist before that", but there are issues such as you have brought up, that they do not address. Hard science involves experiments that can be run to verify theories. Most of astronomy is unverified educated guesses, and so mythology creeps in. It turns out that scientists are human. (4) If I told you - without proof - that I believed in Santa Claus, would you belittle me? QED

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 04:02 PM (saDM3)

797 Wow, Ace, can you get any more simplistic?

He was quoting the person (Seattle Slough) that he is responding to in this post.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 04:02 PM (X9Mnx)

798 Has this post reached it's inevitable kumbaya moment yet? Posted by: naturalfake at February 27, 2014 07:56 PM (0cMkb) Badonkadonk (0cMkb) Actually it started closer to kumbaya and went downhill, as always. Because there is an element of learning disability to all human behavior, so we have the exact same argument 1000 times in a row.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 04:03 PM (qyfb5)

799 Gallup did a survey in 2012 and found that 45% of American believe that God created human beings less than 10,000 years ago.

Partial credit.

Here is the actual question:
"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings -- (human beings have developed over millions of year from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process, (or) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so)?"

In other words, there are only two choices for Christians. God created something which eventually became a human, or God created humans less than 10,000 years ago.

This forces Christians to be Young Earth Creationists if they believe that God created man as man.

Compound question fallacy.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 04:03 PM (P7Wsr)

800 Archbishop Ussher's calculation is mainline Christianity. It's always good to leave on laugh. I've been a mainline Christian for 30 years-various denominations You know when I first heard of Bishop Usher-on a religion forum from am Atheist several years ago. You know when I heard the date of the earth based on all the begats from a mainline church?-Never/ Mainline Christianity. LOL. Now, I really must go. I soooo don't want to be the poster of the week. That's the race I don't want to be competitive in. Neeeeeigh!

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 27, 2014 04:03 PM (XyM/Y)

801 In fact as a Deist myself I would argue that religion is very useful in some cases. It brings a sense of community in difficult and dangerous times. It also makes some men into extraordinary soldiers. Atheist are not known to be great warriors, at least historically, due to a lack of a belief in a afterlife. A belief in religion and console a soldier, make him braver than he really is, and gives him a sense of destiny which is useful in a fight to the death. Note: I am sure there are some great military leaders and soldiers that are atheist, just saying it is a belief that does not give you strength in battle.

Posted by: Willian Eaton at February 27, 2014 04:03 PM (rLRIj)

802 If you keep pushing atheism we'll soon be left to riding around on ostriches and dealing with talking otters.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 04:04 PM (LI48c)

803 Edited my own email at 765: I am addressing atheists as "they."

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 04:04 PM (baL2B)

804 anyhoo my water frogs are so funny to watch. they play dead when nervous. They wave at you when they want you to see them. and they don't ever dig a hole in the yard. what's not to love?

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:04 PM (nqBYe)

805 523 I knew Pascal was a Jansenist, but I didn't know he challenged the divine right of Louis quatorze. ----------------- The group became less associated with the convent after Louis's royal temper tantrum, and the publications and leadership moved outside of France. Arnauld is considered the main French author, but Pascal and in particular Arnauld's sister, the Abbess Mere Angelique played a larger role that recognized for centuries. In fact, Angelique initiated the original revolt by resigning her purchased position and holding an open election in the convent. Interesting women - Louis hated her

Well, that's one thing Pascal was wrong about. As history proved Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at February 27, 2014 07:10 PM (30eLQ) ----------- Great one! Similar strategies: centralization powers weakening traditional local rights, higher taxes, corrupt court patronage controlling everything and political hostages forced to live with him

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 04:05 PM (OU1Hh)

806 >>> my theory is that Vanity is the handmaiden of all other sins. It always was my favorite.

Posted by: John Milton at February 27, 2014 04:05 PM (Ua6T/)

807 How you like my Iranian ass on O'Reilly? I own him!

Posted by: Valere, your Iranian Presidental advisor at February 27, 2014 04:06 PM (0FSuD)

808 I think I am going to go pour a glass of wine and ask Mrs. Minnfidel if she wants to begat.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 04:06 PM (/o+xv)

809 You build yourself an Atheist community, they'll still choose a Godhead. Lenin to Obama, it's as Universal as wine on Sunday.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 04:06 PM (ZshNr)

810 Perhaps seattle slough should ponder how the writer of Genesis could describe the development of life on earth in exactly the same sequence as has been observed in the geologic and archaeological record by modern science? Seems to me like one shouldn't be so flippant about the book, regardless of what some of its adherents may actually believe.

Posted by: rube at February 27, 2014 04:06 PM (ldONG)

811 The original Fright Night is on.ThisTV if you have that( pretty new to me that I have it).

Posted by: steevy at February 27, 2014 04:06 PM (zqvg6)

812 #759 "... he is simply proving that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." CharlieBrown'sDildo First of all he is not "proving" anything by posting such a discredited chestnut. If one were to adhere to that dictum then anything and everything is possible and real and we end up inhabiting a metaphysical madhouse. From wiki: "Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[2] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof"

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 04:07 PM (/cUUk)

813 Not an argument, just a statement. Aside from salvation, God's greatest gift is His Holy Spirit. In this time of turmoil and pain, I pray that everyone can experience His comfort. Perhaps ace is correct and we do not all have the same desire to search for meaning, but we all desire comfort. I'm a pretty terrible Christian. I don't really go to church, and my bible has more dust than it should, but I do not ever want to return to the days without the Holy Spirit in my life. Anyway, God bless you all, especially those who have been hurt by religion. Just remember, God never seeks to destroy you. If someone did so while claiming His name, they were doing so under a false banner.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 04:07 PM (hFL/3)

814 Hi there SS. Dang, I remember way back when you were the new troll in town.

Posted by: Michael at February 27, 2014 04:07 PM (OKgmT)

815 The commenter wasn't claiming to disprove the existence of a higher power. The commenter was simply stating that if you're going to claim that there is a higher power, then the burden of proof is upon you. Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 07:50 PM

"I also would think that any all-powerful all-knowing deity would be beyond jealousy and the desire to be worshiped. He or She would be above such petty needs. Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 07:42 PM "

I raising the bullshit flag. When he starts creating a personality for his assumption of disproof...

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 04:07 PM (KQp38)

816 anyhoo my water frogs are so funny to watch. they play dead when nervous. They wave at you when they want you to see them. and they don't ever dig a hole in the yard. Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 08:04 PM (nqBYe) Badonkadonk (nqBYe) http://youtu.be/R36Ym2fhaT8

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at February 27, 2014 04:08 PM (qyfb5)

817 I see we have an atheist troll in the house Posted by: Jay in PA at February 27, 2014 07:48 PM (7T0u2) But it's totes cool because he wants you to live in the here and now and appreciate truth and freedom! What's that? You're already living in the here and now, have an appreciation for truth, and can at least remember being free before the totalitarians took over? Errr...uhhhh...hmmm. Why do hate teh gheys so much Xtian wingnut!!!11!!

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 27, 2014 04:08 PM (oFCZn)

818 Am I throwing some softballs or what? I getting invited to a dinner.

Posted by: O'R at February 27, 2014 04:09 PM (0FSuD)

819 I also would think that any all-powerful all-knowing
deity would be beyond jealousy and the desire to be worshiped. He or
She would be above such petty needs.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 07:42 PM

I think it's beyond arrogant to pretend that our puny human intellect can fully understand God.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 04:10 PM (X9Mnx)

820 @549 "No society could function if wholesale theft and murder were tolerated, and so that is a clear-cut OBJECTIVE moral concept. It's not "subjective", or otherwise arbitrary, and no supernatural diety is required! In fact, you could call Communism the very institutionalization of wholesale theft, which is why it has an unblemished track record of failure. Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 07:06 PM (saDM3) ===================== Pretty much every atheist country in history has been predicated and sustained by murder and theft. Both are not only celebrated but considered patriotic." And how has that worked out? Those are the places that people risk their lives to escape from. Because they're immoral. But it's not the atheism that's immoral, and shame on you for calling them "atheist countries". You know that the defining characteristic of those countries is some sort of totalitarianism. People there are atheists by force, because the government there is a jealous God. There are plenty of super-religious countries that are hell-holes, because of the immorality of the government, and of the people who put up with it.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 04:10 PM (saDM3)

821 Honestly ... I could give two shits less what people believe and why. I just hate seeing almost 800 bitter posts go by without weighing in.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 27, 2014 04:11 PM (6/+vz)

822

No I don't believe in evolution. My example: look at a cat's whiskers. Yes I know it's kind of silly; but there for a purpose in a perfect place. A birds feathers, tiger spots, DNA--and on and on. 2nd law of thermodynamics.

You think vanity is the worst, I think pride is. Well ok.

As a Christian I am not better than anyone else, I am as dust. I am ordinary- not so special. It's any wonder God could use someone like me. It's amazing to me as I keep messing up God is still ever present. I didn't deserve His grace. People say religion, religion, religion. Gee how is it I can feel so close to Him even in the midst of a storm? It's not a religion that saved me. Or a church building.

I've been reading you for years. I think you are a fair minded man. When you say:

'There is more to the world than that, if you look' I am hopeful for you. Maybe you will find someday He has been there all along. He will never say---what took you so long?

thanks, arlene

Posted by: arlene at February 27, 2014 04:11 PM (Ljwy7)

823 I find that this conversation has rendered me entirely too sober. I aim to fix that. Long Island Ice Tea, on the way. Can I get any of you something while I'm up?

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 04:11 PM (oMKp3)

824 Wow. This thread is still here.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 27, 2014 04:11 PM (V70Uh)

825 Hillary does Miami--(last night) In her University of Miami appearance, Clinton said the country needs to get beyond the Â“partisanshipÂ” and Â“political dead-endsÂ” and have what the French political philosopher Alexis de Tocqueville observed in the 19th-century United States as Â“the habits of the heart.Â” Â“Equality in itself means nothing unless it leads to opportunities, but those opportunities donÂ’t just happen by themselves,Â” Clinton said. Â“They have to be midwifed. They have to be carefully established and nurtured and spread.Â”

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 04:11 PM (RJMhd)

826 This was a great and rather fortuitous thread for me. because when i needed to see something . there it is. who says people in the square screen aren't real?

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:11 PM (nqBYe)

827 Why would you expect anybody to believe anything you say, if you offer no proof? My words are all the proof you need.

Posted by: Barack Obama at February 27, 2014 04:12 PM (mETGQ)

828 Atheism just hasn't been done right yet. With the right people Atheism will cure all the ills of humanity!

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 04:12 PM (ZshNr)

829 794 Can I get any of you something while I'm up? If you've got any way of shoving a Cold Beer down the USB, I'd sure appreciate it.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 27, 2014 04:12 PM (6/+vz)

830 #790 And yet believers will insist that they do know the mind of the deity, that they know what he wants and what the rules are. (Irony ain't just the opposite of wrinkly.)

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 04:12 PM (/cUUk)

831 Test.

To see if Pixy is done fucking with me.

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 04:12 PM (vHRtU)

832 Can I get any of you something while I'm up? Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 08:11 PM (oMKp3) that would be awesome, i hope it goes well with wine.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:12 PM (nqBYe)

833 What happened to CBD's puppy nood?

Posted by: L, elle at February 27, 2014 04:13 PM (0xqKe)

834 @790 "I think it's beyond arrogant to pretend that our puny human intellect can fully understand God." The arrogant hall pass that the faithful inevitably evoke when their arguments begin to unravel. Why not just say "The debate is over!"

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 04:13 PM (saDM3)

835 Hillary does Miami--(last night)

I am definitely NOT renting that one.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 04:13 PM (X9Mnx)

836 From wiki: "Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[2] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof"

Oh dear Allah. My proof was the proof that appeal to ignorance is a fallacy.

I'm saying an unknown is by definition unknown, not true or false.

I'm not using the appeal to ignorance fallacy to demonstrate that God is real. I'm using it to demonstrate that a disbelief in God is a perfect example of the appeal to ignorance fallacy!

By Allah's sagging left nut!

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 27, 2014 04:13 PM (P7Wsr)

837 >>>Well stated, CharlieBrown'sDildo.

nihil obstat Dildo is the essence of what Marcus Aurelius was trying to explain

Posted by: Freddy Neet-sche at February 27, 2014 04:14 PM (omBWL)

838 All I know is that I've got a Maker's on the rocks and can't help but think that God is good.

Posted by: Adam at February 27, 2014 04:14 PM (Aif/5)

839 779 I think I am going to go pour a glass of wine and ask Mrs. Minnfidel if she wants to begat.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 08:06 PM (/o+xv)

begat, beget, begatted. It appears you used the proper tense? Don't let me interrupt. Go forth and propagate, my dear begater or begatee (or is that the feminine?). Not to be confused with a begaytor, or a Corrine Brown gata. Heck, put on some Marvin Gaye and beget down to bidness.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 04:14 PM (baL2B)

840 Brilliant writing, ace. Love it. Vanity and tribalism are the great failures of our age.

Posted by: Cato at February 27, 2014 04:14 PM (OdVTN)

841

I am an Agnostic who has read: the entire Bible (Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Apocrypha); Torah; Koran; portions of the Vedas; elements of Buddhism that embrace both the seeking as well as Buddha as a god or god like form; native American shamanism; and some other more esoteric religious tracts.

I find them imminently worth study and contemplation.

And far better reflections on how the human mind works than on how the universe works.

As a Pascal sympathizer I feel that if I do my best to live what I believe to be a good life -

- trying to limit the harm I inflict on others and the the world while striving to leave the world a little bit better than I found it -

- and there is some redemption or spiritual continuity after my body snuffs it, then I hope I will be welcomed by whatever good that is there.

If my being welcomed requires me to let a snake bite my dick or my killing everyone that doesn't let a snake bite my dick, then fuck it.

Many decry that humans donÂ’t come with an Â‘ownerÂ’s manualÂ’- well, we do, these great religious works are it.

There is great wisdom in these works, suitable for individuals and familiesÂ… with careful thought and consideration.

All of these are ownerÂ’s manuals of wisdom passed down to help us survive and thriveÂ… blended with politics, self-serving evil, and absolute insanity.

They were, after all, written by humans.

Separate the wheat from the chaff. And if I want to hear about your wheat, IÂ’ll ask for it.

I have my own bushel baskets IÂ’m still trying to work through.

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 04:14 PM (vHRtU)

842 @749 All the Crusades but the Albigensian are competely different from the Inquisition is more accurate.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 04:14 PM (sOtz/)

843 http://youtu.be/R36Ym2fhaT8 Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 27, 2014 08:08 PM (qyfb5) yes same ones. They are truly fun to watch. so much quicker and active than my regular fish tank.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:15 PM (nqBYe)

844 And yet believers will insist that they do know the mind of the deity, that they know what he wants and what the rules are. (Irony ain't just the opposite of wrinkly.) Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller
---------------------
We were left with an instruction manual and the admonition to pay attention.

You?

Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 04:15 PM (4Mv1T)

845 806 Hillary does Miami--(last night) I am definitely NOT renting that one. Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 08:13 PM (X9Mnx) ************ Ha! Don't worry it could be coming to a theater near you!

Posted by: tasker at February 27, 2014 04:15 PM (RJMhd)

846 622 Evangelical Bible based Church: 16 years Conservative Christian School: 4 years I calls it like I see it. Here's the thing, buddy. There are good Christians. Lots of 'em. But there's also tons of bad ones. And they hurt people. Especiallly kids. Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 07:17 PM (oAAzd) And you claim that the prevailing thought of all of themis that you can do whatever you want if you think you're doing it for Christ. You are a dishonest little shit. I'm guessing you went to one of those three institutions. Again, I called it like I seen it.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:15 PM (oAAzd)

847 DAMN YOU PIXY!

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 04:15 PM (vHRtU)

848 Posted by: seattle slough at February 27, 2014 07:39 PM (mCz8+)

Nobody I know - literally nobody, even the most devoutly religious - believes the Earth is 6000 years old. I was raised Lutheran and I never heard such a claim, from a pastor or a Sunday school teacher or anybody else. There may be a tiny minority of Christians think that (and I think they may be trolls working to discredit Christianity like the Westboro Baptists), but I think the overwhelming majority of Christians would find such a claim laughable. The only reason you think this is a belief common among Christians is because the media give an inordinate amount of attention to scientifically illiterate nuts like Ken Ham for obvious reasons.

Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at February 27, 2014 04:16 PM (KSjsb)

849 795 Wow. This thread is still here. I will not let it die!

Posted by: God at February 27, 2014 04:16 PM (0FSuD)

850 @798 "My words are all the proof you need." Indeed, Mr. Obama. I have learned that when you say something, it is virtual proof that the opposite is true!

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 04:16 PM (saDM3)

851 In the barrel, over Niagara falls!

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 04:16 PM (hFL/3)

852 Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 08:14 PM (vHRtU) You were doing so well! And then that lightening bolt fell from the skies and...well, into the barrel.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 27, 2014 04:16 PM (oFCZn)

853 Boy meets Barrel.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 04:17 PM (/o+xv)

854 OG Celtic-American BARREL!

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 04:17 PM (0FSuD)

855 I called it like I seen it. And I seen it all little pilgrim, I know all. I AM THE DIETY!!!

Posted by: Asshole at February 27, 2014 04:17 PM (Aif/5)

856 Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 08:14 PM (vHRtU) You are so barreled.

Posted by: YIKES! at February 27, 2014 04:17 PM (mETGQ)

857 We were left with an instruction manual and the admonition to pay attention. You? Posted by: Tobacco Road at February 27, 2014 08:15 PM .........Well said.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 04:17 PM (/o+xv)

858 638 j169, I'm sorry that I was dismissive earlier about your experiences. While they are certainly NOT representative of Christianity, I won't deny that your congregation may believe or preach unbiblical ideas. You might want to check out http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Lauren, I truly appreciate your compassion. All the best.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (oAAzd)

859 I was always a big fan of archaeology and science. Personally I don't think anybody has a fucking clue, religious or not, there is just way too much unknown, and yet at the same time hard truths that stare us in the face that we ignore. I think there is way too much missing info from the record of mankind for anybody to be 100% correct. Anybody who believes they have the ultimate answers are fools. Who the fuck IS god??? Was he an alien? A person? Nobody knows. There are just soooo many "problems" with the historical record of mankind I could go on for weeks listing them all. I always thought it was best for people to go their own voyage of discovery, but to think they have all the answers is a fool's game. What we don't know is way more vast than what we do know.

I never worry about if there is or isn't a god. I'm more curious as to who the fuck gave the Sumerians the knowledge they had, or why some of the oldest bibles I have seen have versions of genesis that mentions the sons (plural) of the gods (plural) finding the daughters of man pleasing and taking wives and giving birth to the titans. So we got a book thats supposedly about ONE god, yet it mentions multiple gods with multiple sons who want to bang earth chicks to give birth to the "men of renown". Really?? I don't see those passages in newer modern bibles. Why not? It seems to me that in the older versions of the bible genesis starts after a frigging shitload of history had already happened. Calculating earth's age from the old testament is a fools game, but coming up with a number and claiming thats what others believe is totally fucking stupid, because nobody can think he has read the true age of the earth from writings of a book thats missing huge amounts of the story.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (FMbng)

860 The arrogant hall pass that the faithful inevitably evoke when their arguments begin to unravel.

Why not just say "The debate is over!"
Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 08:13 PM

That being the case, explain please how a chunk of dirt becomes a living organism and evolves into a human.

Oh, OK, too hard? How about a plant.

After that, I'll give you a couple of weeks to outline the creation of an eye. That should be easy for you.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (KQp38)

861 If you see an atheist in the barrel. Ask them if it exists.

Posted by: Minnfidel at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (/o+xv)

862 This thread is over 20000 years old.

Posted by: Roy at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (tiOTz)

863 OG Celtic-American You can sing it with a good accent! http://tinyurl.com/3ypswzw

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (0FSuD)

864 "But an atheist who is truly awake and understands this, eventually goes insane. What do you think happened to Nietzsche?

Posted by: prescient11 at February 27, 2014 05:58 PM (tVTLU)"

Nietzsche probably had a brain tumor, causing mental derangement. His illness had nothing to do with his atheism.

In fact, he wasn't really an atheist. He wrote "I could only believe in a God who danced" and other such things in support of a kind of transcendence, just not of the Christian variety.

At the same time, if he is an atheist, he's BY FAR the most interesting one of the bunch. Compared to today's neckbearded atheist, I'll take Nietzsche's 'stache any day of the week and twice a day on Sunday.

Posted by: Sudden Clarity Clarence at February 27, 2014 04:18 PM (3kFw2)

865 It smells funny down here. Kind of like resigned nihilism mixed with unicorn jizz and burned nylon...

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 04:19 PM (vHRtU)

866 833 This thread is over 20000 years old.

Posted by: Roy at February 27, 2014 08:18 PM (tiOTz)

snort. xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 04:19 PM (baL2B)

867 Okay, so - beer, wine, Long Island Ice Tea AND OATMEAL RAISIN COOKIES for all !!!!! Here ya go ....

Posted by: grammie winger at February 27, 2014 04:20 PM (oMKp3)

868 We were left with an instruction manual and the admonition to pay attention. You? Posted by: Tobacco Road Which instruction manual was that? The Bible, the Koran, the Upanishads, the Vedas? There are and have been several. I'm assuming you mean the Bible, but of course there were some books of the bible that were excluded. It wasn't until the fifth century AD that the Church gave its imprimatur to those books now seen as canonical. (The Roman Catholic Bible has some deviations as to which books it includes and excludes.) And Muslims believe that the Koran is the final and perfect word of god.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 04:20 PM (/cUUk)

869 "Lauren, I truly appreciate your compassion. All the best." And to you, And here's where we start singing Kumbaya, right?

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 04:20 PM (hFL/3)

870 It smells funny down here. Kind of like resigned nihilism mixed with unicorn jizz and burned nylon... Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 08:19 PM ...But how do you know the unicorn jizz exists?

Posted by: Atheisthole Smarter than you at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (/o+xv)

871 "I'm not using the appeal to ignorance fallacy to demonstrate that God is real." You weren't, but there was a long post or two upthread that sure were: "We can't explain it, so it must be divine." That is a perfect example of the appeal to ignorance fallacy. "I'm using it to demonstrate that a disbelief in God is a perfect example of the appeal to ignorance fallacy!" No, it's really not. But the "why" it's not has already been explained, so there's no need to rehash.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (gBnkX)

872 If we get to 1000 posts, there will be a world-wide flood.

Posted by: Roy at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (tiOTz)

873 836 It smells funny down here. Kind of like resigned nihilism mixed with unicorn jizz and burned nylon... Hey, big fellow, nice to meet you. How long you staying?

Posted by: Erg at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (0FSuD)

874 Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at February 27, 2014 08:18 PM (FMbng) I always wonder about a child of 3 playing the violin or a 11 mth old that can read a 3rd graders book. ( yes i actually knew both)

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (nqBYe)

875 833 This thread is over 20000 years old. Posted by: Roy at February 27, 2014 08:18 PM (tiOTz) Someone should have turned a hose on and flooded their basement at around comment #15

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (oFCZn)

876 Man, this place is so deep that the open top looks like a UDF galaxy...

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 04:21 PM (vHRtU)

877 Well, gee whiz, if I were wondering which canon to believe had the most virtue in it, would I choose the Bible or the Quran. Such a puzzler.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 04:22 PM (ZshNr)

878 My God! It's full of posts.

Posted by: Roy at February 27, 2014 04:22 PM (tiOTz)

879 We need a bigger barrel.

Posted by: Chief Brody at February 27, 2014 04:23 PM (sOtz/)

880 This thread is over 20000 years old. Posted by: Roy at February 27, 2014 08:18 PM (tiOTz) well it 'feels so' so be it.

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:23 PM (nqBYe)

881 703 he real question I always have for Atheists is why they desire to take away someone else's faith. Because we want you to appreciate the here and now, and live a life of truth and freedom Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (oAAzd) ok, now that seemed pretty evangelistic. I was raised in the church...

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:23 PM (oAAzd)

882 843 If we get to 1000 posts, there will be a world-wide flood. It could happen, but all the "Christians" are at the movie theaters watching the Jesus movie. They won't let that happen while they are eating popcorn and overpriced candy.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 27, 2014 04:23 PM (0FSuD)

883 The arrogant hall pass that the faithful inevitably evoke when their arguments begin to unravel.
Why not just say "The debate is over!"

Exactly what argument is unraveling?

If- even for the sake of argument- you were to acknowledge the existence of an eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing God who created the Universe, the physical laws that govern it, and everything in it, is it so far fetched that we as humans couldn't easily relate?

The mere concept of eternity is difficult for humans to comprehend.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 27, 2014 04:24 PM (X9Mnx)

884 "..when it got out of hand is when the church lost its control over it and it became a tool of the monarchy." Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 07:56 PM (LI48c) Dynastic power struggles were often confused and mislabeled as religious wars. As you stated, secular rulers demanded absolute religious control over their lands; northern Protestants and southern Catholic rulers. Forcing populations to adopt the religion of their ruler lead to immense religious anxiety among their populations; in several situations outright mob hysteria. One major factor leading to witch burnings.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 04:24 PM (OU1Hh)

885 Open thread to rescue above. Manna from heaven?

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Judge of Raciss Morons at February 27, 2014 04:24 PM (baL2B)

886 Oh man, thread getting near impossible for me to load now.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 27, 2014 04:25 PM (gBnkX)

887 >>Well, gee whiz, if I were wondering which canon to believe had the most virtue in it, would I choose the Bible or the Quran. Such a puzzler.

Would depend entirely on where you were born, and you know it.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 04:25 PM (1zhvB)

888 nood

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 04:25 PM (hFL/3)

889 well, there is a nood but it's not an Ace nood -- it's a lesser's nood

Posted by: soothsayer at February 27, 2014 04:25 PM (tyz5J)

890 Well said, ace...you need an up-vote thingy

Posted by: CanaDave at February 27, 2014 04:25 PM (kPpHE)

891 How do I know Unicorn Jizz exists? I once watched a massage nymph jack off a unicorn. Man you could smell that stuff from meter away.Kind of like sperm whale oil mixed with creosote and roses...

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at February 27, 2014 04:26 PM (vHRtU)

892 (1) Why would you expect anybody to believe anything you say, if you offer no proof?

(2) There is no "WHY", which requires some sort of goal or purpose, in science. Science simply tries to find an explanation for HOW things work. Unthinking things. Things without goals. Rocks! If you find a "scientist" to answer those questions, they're no scientist at all.

. . . .

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 08:02 PM (saDM3)

1. Why would I believe anyone who tells me there is NO WAY that God can exist, when that person knows only HOW things work and can describe them reasonably well with math, but has NO real idea WHY anything even exists? That's the role "science" has now. It tells us that it knows EVERYTHING with such certainty and that Christians are utterly wrong and foolish to believe what we believe. Yet in reality, all science knows how to do is describe how things are running.

2. And yet very rarely is "science" accurate at all in describing HOW something works, only that it does in a certain way. There is a distinction that I don't think you are catching, but it is a clear distinction to me.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 27, 2014 04:27 PM (TM1p8)

893 Errr...uhhhh...hmmm. Why do hate teh gheys so much Xtian wingnut!!!11!! thanks for reading my posts! and using the word "totes"!

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:28 PM (oAAzd)

894 No, it wouldn't . A human instinct is enough, bereft of spiritual input, to understand that subjugation of women and the slaughtering of neighbors is not virtuous. We all know it intrinsically, which is why Islam requires masks and curfews and minute control of the hourly life of it's victims. A few days without that, and the whole jig is up.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 04:28 PM (ZshNr)

895 @665 665 "Wow, does that really have to be explained? You must have some serious larceny in your heart! (You're a liberal, aren't you?)" Yes, that really does have to be explained. As a believer, I gave the basis for my morality. As a non-believer it's up to you to explain the basis for yours. Right now, all you're offering is 'Society can't function if we all go around killing each other.' "Any half-way decent parent would teach a kid not to focus on "getting away with it", because they know its like crack - something for nothing is irresistible. You WILL get caught, eventually, and the cost will not be worth it - because civilization cannot tolerate it, and so must make the cost too high. Beyond that, living with the fear of possibly being found out is detrimental to your life. " And yet, all too often people do get away with these things. Or in some cases get caught but pay a penalty far less than the benefits they received from their 'immoral' actions. In your view, why shouldn't those people have done the things they did? "Reality is a little more complicated, but isn't a supernatural bogey-man a bit childish? And doesn't that leave you at the mercy of some becloaked holy-man, who says he's got the answers, but really can't know any better than you. " I suppose it would, if I were unable to read the Bible for myself. Or if I were unable to pray and have my own relationship with God. "So, yeah, it absolutely is "same thing as saying it's wrong", but the "non-aggression pact" thing is a bit over-simplified." How is it over-simplified? The morality you're presenting is 'I'll agree not to kill you if you'll agree not to kill me, and society agrees to kill either of us if we break our side of the bargain.'

Posted by: Paul at February 27, 2014 04:29 PM (GTyB/)

896 720 see we have an atheist troll in the house -------- Don't you belittle what he experienced now, what happened to him is indicative of Christianity in general. He totes promises. Fuck you , Adam. The snake fucked your women while you were eating the apple

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:30 PM (oAAzd)

897 848 "Well, gee whiz, if I were wondering which canon to believe had the most virtue in it, would I choose the Bible or the Quran. Such a puzzler." Posted by: Lincolntf I wouldn't choose either. The Bible, for instance, says that we should not suffer a witch to live. The Old Testament depicts a jealous god who told the Hebrews to conquer tribes by killing all the men and children but keeping the virgins for themselves. Now why do you suppose the virgins were allowed to live and were god-given as booty to the Hebrew soldiers? Very moral teaching, that. (And very convenient.) Of course, once the Moabites were dead, that was the end of them. It wasn't until the New Testament that hell appears as a place of eternal torture.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 04:31 PM (/cUUk)

898 We have been well fed intellectually today on this blog. Some smart, deep people here. Thanks Ace!

Posted by: fastfreefall at February 27, 2014 04:31 PM (Tz35j)

899 649 Only Islam has a higher body count than does atheism. Wanna bet? Christians would rather side with Muslims than humanists

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:32 PM (oAAzd)

900 Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 08:28 PM (oAAzd) since it's the end of the thread. I would just like to say to you. Whatever your walk in life presents I hope the best for you(not cynical) because it truly is a difficult road for most and all one can hope is we survive with dignity and as a decent human until we pass along to where ever .

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:32 PM (nqBYe)

901 >>A human instinct is enough, bereft of spiritual input, to understand that subjugation of women and the slaughtering of neighbors is not virtuous

Given how much subjugation of women and slaughtering of neighbors has gone on historically, I rather doubt that.

Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 04:32 PM (1zhvB)

902 I deny that one has to reject the Bible as divine truth in order to accept evolution or the age of the earth or that the biblical flood was local rather than global. For example, B.B. Warfield defined the concept of biblical inerrancy in the 19th century, and he also accepted evolution. The idea that the Bible actually teaches a young earth or is incompatible with evolution is simply incorrect, and I'm happy to defend that. I wrote about some of it on my blog: http://agentintellect.blogspot.com/2011/02/bible-and-age-of-universe-part-1.html

Posted by: Jim S. at February 27, 2014 04:32 PM (GWxwa)

903 thx willow. all the best to you.

Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 04:33 PM (oAAzd)

904 and off to new thread and drink more wine

Posted by: willow at February 27, 2014 04:33 PM (nqBYe)

905 Metaphor, do you speak it? 2,000 years of muddled translations filtered through a dozen languages, do you understand that? Do you think the Bible really says we should burn people who go to Spencer Gifts and by a crystal ball and pointy hat?

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 27, 2014 04:34 PM (ZshNr)

906 >> Which instruction manual was that? The Bible, the Koran, the Upanishads, the Vedas? There are and have been several. I'm assuming you mean the Bible, but of course there were some books of the bible that were excluded. It wasn't until the fifth century AD that the Church gave its imprimatur to those books now seen as canonical. (The Roman Catholic Bible has some deviations as to which books it includes and excludes.) And Muslims believe that the Koran is the final and perfect word of god. << If I brought you five old articles written about the upcoming finale to "Lost", and they disagreed, would you deduce that the show never existed? "It wasn't until the fifth century AD that the Church gave its imprimatur to those books now seen as canonical. " Who told you that? Since everybody who says that happened, expressed belief in God, aren't the only witnesses highly incredible?

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 27, 2014 04:36 PM (5xmd7)

907 >>A human instinct is enough, bereft of spiritual input, to understand that subjugation of women and the slaughtering of neighbors is not virtuous<< Good God, that's racist. You're saying the Indians lacked human instincts.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 27, 2014 04:37 PM (5xmd7)

908 "Christians would rather side with Muslims than humanists" No, no, no, no, no, no! Islam is less a religion than it is an aggressive death machine. The best thing that could befall an Islamic nation would be an outbreak of humanism.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2014 04:37 PM (hFL/3)

909 ACE obviously cares.

Posted by: rik at February 27, 2014 04:38 PM (rVEZt)

910 When Charles Murray was researching Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 (2003) he came to an amazing conclusion for a non believer: Belief in transcendent values of some kind, of something greater than oneself, seemed to be a prerequisite for genuine artistic creativity. The works of art produced by those who did not have such a worldview lacked depth and staying power and faded from the scene.

Posted by: NC Mountain Girl at February 27, 2014 04:39 PM (cgbx9)

911 I appreciate your earnest effort here Ace. But it is ultimately wasted. Because we're talking about trying to get people to look at themselves here, and, frankly, it just ain't gonna happen. Because - people. Homo sapiens. Why be introspective when it is much more exhilarating to luxuriate in self-directed verbal mind-fap. There's your tribalism. You seriously think you're going to defeat this with ... logic? I doubt it man. The next big thing will be diggin' up our bones in the distant future goin' "WTF?".

I wish I could see the museums they build.

Posted by: dissent555 at February 27, 2014 04:39 PM (yR6A1)

912

When somebody brings up the whole creationism-vs-evolution thing, I explain it basically boils down to a belief system. When the evos squawk I then bring out the 'Creationism versus Evolution Debate in Pure Mathematics'. What, isn't math, you know, math? What's there to debate?

A heckuva lot, actually. The Generalized Continuum Hypothesis is a _huge_ knock-down drag-out WWF fight in the math community. Almost every anti-CH proponent is an atheist, and the CH camp is mostly deist. It's really fascinating how our belief systems drive everything we do.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 04:40 PM (d3MA1)

913 I haven't seen Seattle Slough around for a while. I just assumed he died and went to heaven.

Posted by: Ronster at February 27, 2014 04:42 PM (puNd6)

914 #881 We can admire the artistic triumph of the Parthenon without believing in the cult of Pallas Athena.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 04:42 PM (/cUUk)

915 Great essay, Ace. I have a suggestion for people who believe as you (and I): call your outlook "materialism" and yourself a "(philosophical) materialist". Atheists define themselves by their opposition. To a materialist, the only things that require explanation are observations and the only things that count as explanations are observations.

Posted by: Malcolm Kirkpatrick at February 27, 2014 04:46 PM (PzoD3)

916 #876 How do you decide which biblical segments are metaphorical and which are literal? Certain fundamentalist sects would insist on a literal interpretation for passages you might consider allegorical or symbolic. Since you think the passage, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is metaphorical, give me your interpretation of that injunction.

Posted by: Semi-engaged scroller at February 27, 2014 04:47 PM (/cUUk)

917 "The human race is an enormous agglomeration of bubbles which are continually bursting and ceasing to be. No one made it or knows anything worth knowing about it. Love it dearly, oh ye bubbles. This is a sort of religion, no doubt, but it seems to me a very silly one."

Posted by: J. F. Stephen at February 27, 2014 04:47 PM (fgh+v)

918 Another big giveaway is the van der Waals force. A total hack. Basically it makes the water molecule's angles between the hydrogen atoms be 104 degrees instead of 180. That's why ice floats. And why proteins fold correctly to support life. Physicists are still scratching their heads about that force, why it's there, and how it works.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 04:48 PM (d3MA1)

919 @863 "...1. Why would I believe anyone who tells me there is NO WAY that God can exist, when that person knows only HOW things work and can describe them reasonably well with math, but has NO real idea WHY anything even exists? That's the role "science" has now. It tells us that it knows EVERYTHING with such certainty and that Christians are utterly wrong and foolish to believe what we believe. Yet in reality, all science knows how to do is describe how things are running. 2. And yet very rarely is "science" accurate at all in describing HOW something works, only that it does in a certain way. There is a distinction that I don't think you are catching, but it is a clear distinction to me. " (1) Science has no place in declaring or denying the existence of a God, but gets pulled into the discussion because it has come up with explanations for things that had previously only been explainable via supernatural explanations. Religion has made the mistake of taking some scientific stands in the past, and has been called on it. Science is about the natural, religion is about the supernatural, but often foolishly dabbles in other things. As to the lack of God's existence, you can apply the scientific method, and refuse to accept without hard evidence, or you can go with the inherent logical inconsistencies (which is the only way to "prove a negative"). (2) I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I suspect that the "distinction" you speak of is simply the result of commonplace muddled, imprecise ways of thinking about things, such as personifying inanimate objects with "why"s.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 04:50 PM (saDM3)

920 I just finished reading Steven Meyer's Signature in the Cell. Highly recommended. If you think Darwin or evolution has all of the answers to the origins of life, think again. Darwin knew he hadn't explained it Â– he addressed the metamorphosis of life, not its actual origin. DNA hadn't been "discovered" yet. The Cambrian Explosion and the lack of fossil evidence of any of the in-between species that pure evolution necessitates have never been found. Meyers did a bit of math: with all of the probability resources of the entire atomic particle universe, and all of the time since the big bang, the odds of a simple protein spontaneously combining is about 10 to the 41,000th power. Never mind functioning DNA, RNA (transfer and memory) and highly complex proteins. I'm not going to call it God until I stand before... something... but it ain't chance evolution.

Posted by: Buckdarmha at February 27, 2014 04:53 PM (y4upn)

921 @870 If Renaissance Humanism had not sprung from Christians you'd have a better point. Trying to paint every religious person as a snake-handling rube is your first and repeated mistake. Atheism is as unprovable as an overly-literal (mis)interpretation of scripture. Deal with it.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 04:58 PM (sOtz/)

922 892 @870

If Renaissance Humanism had not sprung from Christians you'd have a better point. Trying to paint every religious person as a snake-handling rube is your first and repeated mistake.

Atheism is as unprovable as an overly-literal (mis)interpretation of scripture. Deal with it.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 08:58 PM (sOtz/)

Don't expect much from a bigot such as him.

Posted by: buzzion at February 27, 2014 05:00 PM (LI48c)

923

'Thou shall not suffer a witch to live', you mean the quote that when I put it in Google comes up with 'Mistranslated Bible Quotes' as the second hit?

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 05:02 PM (d3MA1)

924 ...2nd law of thermodynamics...

Posted by: arlene at February 27, 2014 08:11 PM (Ljwy7)

Arlene, I see this misuse of the Second Law of Thermodynamics all the time. The problem is that it only applies to closed systems, i.e. the Universe as a whole. The energy pouring into the earth every second from the Sun means that this is not a closed system, at least for now. The local reversal of an overall entropic trend that has resulted is somewhat akin to an eddy in a larger current, albeit on a much larger scale and over a period of time measured in the billions of years.

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 05:02 PM (L9te5)

925 @301 "... But each decade that goes by, the harder it is to square the real world with that of the book of Genesis. ... Is it OK for me to believe in climate change? Or does that make me a fool? ..." In all, a very reasonable comment, "Seattle". Except for the "climate change" stuff. Assuming you mean CAGW, that either certainly DOES make you a fool, or simply evil. You guys declared scientific theory with zero track record of making meaningful predictions as "settled science", and then stuck with it after a decade and a half of real data refuting the most basic of your series of extraordinary (and sometimes downright outrageous) claims. The models didn't predict "no warming for 15 years", but we're still supposed to believe it's coming - because of those same models!! Science tells us that CO2, is obviously not the driving force in the Earth's temperature, and they obviously have a lousy handle on what is, so anybody pushing that stuff has the same scientific basis as astrology at this point. There are a lot of activists with PhDs being paid to impersonate scientists out there, and it's pretty obvious, after decades of socialists crying "Wolf" to push their agenda.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 27, 2014 05:04 PM (saDM3)

926 What could be more magical than a sprawling natural universe, populated with evolved arrangements of organized matter capable of reflecting upon that universe? If there can exist in our material cosmos, this thing called consciousness, the universe is such that it has consciousness. The pedantic atheist says it only has a little bit, so suck it. The believer says this little bit is a glorious and inspiring thing.

Posted by: bleck at February 27, 2014 05:06 PM (b6Qog)

927 @891 They have found many in-between species taxonomically speaking. That still leaves huge gaps in our knowledge of the origin of life in particular and the development of life generally.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 05:07 PM (sOtz/)

928 If I catch my side using 2nd law of thermodynamics I smack 'em for it. Also bad probability arguments that don't take into account coupling.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 05:07 PM (d3MA1)

929 I had to sneak this one in after the "quixotic" label

. : Â“Destiny guides our fortunes more favorably than we could have expected. Look there, Sancho Panza, my friend, and see those thirty or so wild giants, with whom I intend to do battle and kill each and all of them, so with their stolen booty we can begin to enrich ourselves. This is nobel, righteous warfare, for it is wonderfully useful to God to have such an evil race wiped from the face of the earth." "What giants?" Asked Sancho Panza. "The ones you can see over there," answered his master, "with the huge arms, some of which are very nearly two leagues long." "Now look, your grace," said Sancho, "what you see over there aren't giants, but windmills, and what seems to be arms are just their sails, that go around in the wind and turn the millstone." "Obviously," replied Don Quijote, "you don't know much about adventures.Â” ― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote ---------------------- Willow and Meroveign. My wishes and prayers that God will provide strength, comfort and encouragement in your lives.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 27, 2014 05:08 PM (OU1Hh)

930 870 Christians would rather side with Muslims than humanists Posted by: j169 at February 27, 2014 08:32 PM (oAAzd) Tell that to the Christians in Nigeria. Oh, wait, you can't. They're dead.

Posted by: rickl at February 27, 2014 05:10 PM (sdi6R)

931 We are such stuff As dreams are made of, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep.

Posted by: Carlyle at February 27, 2014 05:17 PM (fgh+v)

932 898 - Sure, we've discovered fossils that illuminate a progression of a species, but where is the in-between of a single cell animal and a bird, mammal or lizard. In the Cambrian Explosion, a blink of an eye, evolutionarily speaking, about 20 new phyla appeared. That's a hell of a lot of evolution. We have amazing fossil evidence of these new animals, but nothing of how they came to be.

The information in the digital code of DNA alone is reason to doubt pure evolution as the answer to the origin of life. In our experience, there is only one source of significant and specific information: intelligence. That doesn't mean supernatural, necessarily. I don't have to prove the existence of God to point to the impossibility of pure Darwinian evolution as the answers to origin.

Posted by: Buckdarmha at February 27, 2014 05:18 PM (y4upn)

933 Talk about a nutty religion. And lo, the climate was unchanging for four billion plus years. Then man built coal plants, the first huge output of CO2 the earth had ever seen. And it was bad. Very bad.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 05:19 PM (sOtz/)

934 Ace - You may want to examine this: http://preview.tinyurl.com/lf7umwd and this: http://preview.tinyurl.com/qbuwwx9 If you look at the Holocene sea level rise, and then look at the Mediterranean (which shows 10 m down) you will see the sea level rise that probably not only resulted in the Biblical "flood" but the lost City of "Atlantis". Since most societies stay in coastal areas, the constant and rapid sea level rise would have been a disaster for Holocene man, and would have probably left stories for millennium afterwards....

Posted by: Brendan at February 27, 2014 05:22 PM (8YVZT)

935 890 "(1) Science has no place in declaring or denying the existence of a God, but gets pulled into the discussion because it has come up with explanations for things that had previously only been explainable via supernatural explanations..." This makes it sound very accidental. The truth is that there were and are a few influential populizers of science who deliberately and with malice aforethought presented science as an adequate replacement for religious faith. Sagan... Asimov... there are a couple of other ones. Supposedly Sagan relaxed his position later in his life but he wrote plenty of articles explaining that belief in god was bad for society, that it was damaging... and that it wasn't necessary because science offered all the spiritually fulfilling things that people get from religion. Science wasn't "pulled into" the discussion by accident... it was thrust by atheist scientists who specifically and publicly hoped to destroy religious faith.

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 05:23 PM (7/PU+)

936 Yep, vanity. Or, as some call it, "pride." You're right, Ace.

Posted by: Mike in the Hinterlands at February 27, 2014 05:25 PM (DNpio)

937 @903 Gaps, many. I think a lot of evolution happens quickly after major die-offs and that mechanism needs a lot of fleshing out. Part of the mechanism is neo-Lamarckian epigenetics. Or,.what we learned about Darwin in school was at least partially exactly wrong. Viral DNA is another interesting new field. That "junk" DNA, isn't.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 05:26 PM (sOtz/)

938
Great post Ace. Nice that it brought out the best of this wonderful community.

I'm an atheist on Wednesdays, agnostics on every other Friday, and a believer about sixty percent of the time.

I differ with most Christians who believe that Christ died and appeared in physical form after his death. The miracle of Christ in my eyes is that what he preached in a backwater of civilization during a very brutal and primitive time, eventually impacted millions creating a religion which valued all human life. That in itself is a miracle.

Posted by: Levin at February 27, 2014 05:32 PM (cQ4Va)

939 I wrote a comment earlier today and my internet connection at school ate it... I'd more or less said that I tended to like Reason and Hit and Run but that the comments at those places were full of obnoxious atheists who refuse to look objectively at the role of faith in society and will insist that the irrationality of religious faith is self-evident proof supporting any sort of dire prediction about the terrible results of believing in God. I mentioned plague and pestilence, (from not believing evolution), flood and earthquake, (if you don't believe climate scientists), dogs and cats living together and mass hysteria... I do think that tribalism is a huge part of it, but the *justification* seems to me to be, always, that civilization as we know it will disintegrate if people are allowed their irrational peccadilloes. That this civilization destroying unreason accompanies the birth of civilization itself is.... inconvenient.

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 05:34 PM (7/PU+)

940 Talk about a nutty religion.

And lo, the climate was unchanging for four billion plus years. Then man built coal plants, the first huge output of CO2 the earth had ever seen. And it was bad. Very bad.

Posted by: Beagle at February 27, 2014 09:19 PM (sOtz/)

Heh. The Vostok ice samples show the global temperature and CO2 concentrations for the last 420,000 years. They show that (1) temperatures and CO2 vary in approximately 100,000 cycles, and that (2) CO2 concentration increases actually lag the temperature increases (same on the downside). Which makes sense. Warmer liquids (i.e. the oceans) hold less oxygen and CO2, so it goes someplace else -- the atmosphere.

My money is on some variation/derivation based on Milankovitch cycles, which anyone is free to ixquick (my preferred search engine in that they don't data farm and sell unlike Bing and Google).

The real problem is that these ice samples and all of the cyclical data show that we are at the PEAK of a cycle. The only place to go from here is down, i.e. another ice age.

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 05:37 PM (L9te5)

941 Being called a "fool" for Christ is a compliment, unintentional as it may seem. See 1 Corinthians 4.

Posted by: puddleglum at February 27, 2014 05:38 PM (15w2J)

942

"the early 19th (and 17th) century to find obvious non-fools who were also religious zealots"

Hmmm. Google Fr. J.B. Macelwane, a Jesuit who estabished the Jesuit Seismological Service at St. Louis University. He published Introduction to Theoretical Seismology (that's the study of earthquakes, Seattle), the first textbook on seimology in America. He served as president of the Seismological Society of America and of the American Geophysical Union. A medal bearing his name is still awarded to promising young geophysicists.

Fr. Stanley Jaki - there's another name for you. He is a prizewinning historian of science with doctorates in theology and physics.

Here's a few names of Britsh writers who converted to Catholicism in the late 19th and 20th centuries: Oscar Wilde, Edith Sitwell, Siegfried Sasson, Evelyn Waugh, Alec Guiness (an actor, but he also wrote), Douglas Hyde (one-time editor of the Daily Worker, who gave his Commie comrades hissy fits when he announced he had become a believer), Muriel Spark, Graham Greene, and Malcolm Muggeridge. I don't how many of those names you're even familiar with, but believe me, it's not a shabby list.

In the interests of space, I've left out some names. I think I've provided you with quite a bit intellectual of firepower right there.

I've just given you a few of the Catholic names. Others might be able to help with Protestants. (C.S. Lewis is one.)

Do you really think you're smarter than Macelwane or Jaki, something in seattle? Do you think Bill Maher is smarter than they are?

Posted by: Biggus Dickus at February 27, 2014 05:41 PM (R3gO3)

943 Oops! I made a joke about a commenter's hatred of the Romans in last night's ONT and forgot to take my sock off.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 05:46 PM (R3gO3)

944 Sorry. This open letter is retarded. Religion's job for centuries has been to silence logic and scientific developement. Why? Because science directly points out the fallacies and flaws in the ideology of religion. Like the sun revolves around the earth and talking snakes and all the other utter nonsense splatter on thousands of mind numbingly retarded and nonsensical pages of the Bible. To call someone a fool in belief of talking snakes, rib women, giant wooden ships with millions of species co-existing, talking burning bushes, humans spontaneously turning into salt, rain frogs, sky gods, spontaneous multiplying bread and fish, zombies, ect, ect is not an insult it is a technical description of that individual. The problem with Christians and Christianity today is they just spout bible verses and have no idea about where and when those words came from. And saying Jesus was probably a real person even though there is not one shred of evidence. Just look up Richard Carrier.

Posted by: Dekay at February 27, 2014 05:47 PM (FxJzK)

945 It's worth pointing out that the title of Charles Darwin's most famous book was "On the Origin of Species", not "On the Origin of Life". I admit that I haven't read the book, but as far as I know, he was only trying to explain how there came to be so many different species, and didn't have much to say about how life appeared in the first place.

Posted by: rickl at February 27, 2014 05:48 PM (sdi6R)

946 Damn, I'm sorry I missed this one. As a religion-friendly agnostic, I have my own short answer to those who hang their ego on their presumed superiority to all those foolish God botherers and it goes like this: Tolkien, Chesterton, Lewis - think you're smarter than they were? I don't. Now to scan for some new names to add to my artillery ....

Posted by: ChicagoRefugee who is, in fact, a Real Woman at February 27, 2014 05:49 PM (C15wm)

947 God re-shaped the earth approximately 6000 years ago. Christ created the universe (and earth) some 17 billion years ago. The flood did happen. The theory of evolution is a THEORY. A laughable one, at that.

Posted by: Nikkolai at February 27, 2014 05:50 PM (pSsN0)

948

"...totalitarianism. People there are atheists by force, because the government there is a jealous God."

Its because the State and God are competing for the same thing: souls.

"Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State"

Posted by: Fen at February 27, 2014 05:51 PM (a422o)

949 Google me for why atheism is a farce. I invented your argument, then refuted it. You're welcome.

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 05:52 PM (aUR4R)

950 Oh, and if Seattle Slough has not yet read Lewis' Mere Christianity - as his utterly ridiculous questions suggest is the case - then Seattle Slough is arguing from abysmal ignorance. And perhaps he should take pains to avoid embarrassing himself further and stick to subjects closer to his intellectual level, such as finger painting, play doh, and eating goldfish.

Posted by: ChicagoRefugee who is, in fact, a Real Woman at February 27, 2014 05:58 PM (C15wm)

951 #915 And there we go. As I said a couple comments before... "That this civilization destroying unreason accompanies the birth of civilization itself is.... inconvenient."

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 06:01 PM (7/PU+)

952 Without a worthy arbitrator of morality does it matter at all Ace? If it does why do you think so? If this man enjoys belittling others who are you to tell him that he is wrong? Don't get me wrong, I applaud your post, and I agree with your statements of tribalism and vanity. I just do not see any logic in it as without god, gods or God there really is nothing to life except tribalism.

Posted by: Mekan at February 27, 2014 06:02 PM (zG16+)

953 51 The Old Testament should be interpreted "parabolically," not literally. St. Paul says so himself. People should read the Pauline Epistles. And then Acts. And then the Gospels. But most Atheists are "stoners." They feel the "Need/Will to Stone." And since Christians are stigmatized, and Atheists are cowards and therefore "stone down," they try to stone them. And that is why atheism will never win. In the end, it all boils down to the first lesson from politics 101. The lesson Jesus tried to teach that crowd that wanted to stone a woman for adultery. Yes, yes, the bible sanitizes this with that whole bit about he who is without sin casting the first stone, but it's widely understood by scholars today that what he actually said was: DON'T FUCKING STONE DOWN!!!!! Can't anybody play this game? Rank amateurs, the lot of ya!

Posted by: someguy at February 27, 2014 06:06 PM (nEYTc)

954

Sorry, Dekay, but you're ignorant: First of all see post 913.

Here's some more names from earlier ages: Fr. Nicolaus Steno (1638-1686) has been credited with setting down most of the principles of modern geology. He was the first man ever to propose a theory of fossils.

Fr. Giambattista Ricccioli, an astronomer, was the first scientist to determine the rate of acceleration of a freely falling body.

Fr. Francesco Grimaldi discovered the diffraction of light.

Fr. Roger Boscovich (1711-1787) was accomplished in atomic theory, optics, mathematics and astronomy. He also wrote poetry. His works include "The Sunspots" and "the Theory of Natural Philosophy."

Fr. Athanasius Kircher (1602-1680) - his chemistry work helped debunk alchemy. He was one of the first Egyptologists and proved the Coptic language was derived from ancient Egyptian.

Again, I could go on and on and on....Tell me, Dekay - who founded the first hospitals and universities in Europe? Do you know? Take a guess. You know those big giant cathedrals they have over there? Did it ever occur to you that a lot of SCIENCE went into planning and building them?

You so perfectly prove ace's point. You are completely ignorant of 2000 years of Western Civilization and church history. And yet you flatter yourself that you're enlightened. Try learning something - googling the names I've tossed out, that would be a start.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 06:08 PM (R3gO3)

955 "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter" - Max Planck, or as I like to call him "Suck on it Atheists"

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 06:14 PM (aUR4R)

956 #915 - "Religion's job for centuries has been to silence logic and scientific developement. Why? Because science directly points out the fallacies and flaws in the ideology of religion." In which case all those monks and their observatories and libraries and translating of ancient texts and the universities and the reformers dedication to literacy for the middle and lower classes... they really truly *sucked* at their self-obvious job to silence logic and scientific development in the service of God. This is blatant unreason to me... shouldn't a thinking person take the next step and test a hypothesis, no matter how logical it sounds, against observable History? And I'm not talking about a child's understanding of Galileo's self-inflicted hardships because he was too much of an arrogant ass to resist making it personal with the pope.

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 06:14 PM (7/PU+)

957 Good job, Donna and V. You forgot Gregor Mendel, the discoverer of genetics, who was an Augustinian friar.

Posted by: rickl at February 27, 2014 06:19 PM (sdi6R)

958 Â“No skeptical philosopher can ask any questions that may not equally be asked by a tired child on a hot afternoon.Â” ~ G.K.Chesterton

Posted by: Yep at February 27, 2014 06:19 PM (Ojgjr)

959 >>Religion's job for centuries has been to silence logic and scientific developement. YES! Like eugenics, and modern racial anthropology, which PROVED the darkies not only were weak, they NEED to be kicked.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 27, 2014 06:21 PM (5xmd7)

960 Chris... and then there's that. We really shouldn't forget how early discovery and understanding of genetics and acceptance of evolution was used to prove racial superiority and support eugenics and genocide.

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 06:24 PM (7/PU+)

961

Synova, excellent points. The only reason we know of the ancient philosophers and playwrights and scientists is because the monks in the Middle Ages translated and preserved their works. They did that despite the fact that those authors were pagans? Why did they do that, if they wanted "silence logic" as Dekay so ignorantly puts it? Shouldn't they have been concerned only with Christian texts?

The Taliban blew up those giant Buddhas because they wanted to rid the country of signs of any earlier civilization or belief system. The Christians preserved the past.

I shouldn't be so hard on dekay and seattle slough - it's clear they received a modern "progressive" education and never developed the intellectual curiousity to challenge what they were taught. It fits too nicely with their own prejudices and desires. You not only feel no need to live like a Christian (which is very hard to do, as any Christian knows. I can't say I'm terribly good at it), but you get to flatter yourself that you are smart and superior for doing so. How nice. How cheap and lazy.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 06:26 PM (R3gO3)

962 @928

The author of the Big Bang Theory was Monseigneur Georges LemaÃ®tre, a Roman Catholic priest, astronomer, and professor of physics at the UniversitÃ© catholique de Louvain.

He called his 'hypothesis of the Primeval Atom.

And contrary to modern thought - his theory not only corrected Einstein's miscalculation of the steady expansion of the universe - it also reveal metaphysical probability of an intelligent source (The Creator) that existed beyond time itself at the singularity.

And wouldn't you know it - the first person to originally theorize that time itself was created at the moment of creation (as LemaÃ®tre's Theory later established) was none other than St Augustine of Hippo in the 4the century.

Posted by: Yep at February 27, 2014 06:30 PM (Ojgjr)

963

Ah, rickl, Mendel is the most obvious example of all - and I missed him! Thanks!

(I wonder if seattle slough and dekay have heard of him. They seem to have had very defective educations.)

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 06:33 PM (R3gO3)

964 932 Synova, excellent points. The only reason we know of the ancient philosophers and playwrights and scientists is because the monks in the Middle Ages translated and preserved their works. They did that despite the fact that those authors were pagans? Why did they do that, if they wanted "silence logic" as Dekay so ignorantly puts it? Shouldn't they have been concerned only with Christian texts?

Catholicism builds it's reasoning upon the logic of the Stoic Greeks. St Augustine himself was heavily influenced in the Neo-Platonism of Plotinus.

Catholic theology teaches that there are some rays of God's Truth in all belief systems and philosophies - no matter how obscure and incidental. After all, all humans are made in His image.

Posted by: Yep at February 27, 2014 06:34 PM (Ojgjr)

965 I, Antony Flew, taught Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and Krauss every argument they use to appeal to atheism. Then science - yes, science - showed me not only that God does exist, but that he MUST exist. DNA coding and RNA nanomachinery shows that intelligence MUST be behind life. Upon these discoveries, I changed my mind, and the neo-atheist Darwinian arguments have been reduced to mere sophistry.

Oh, and William Lane Craig is right too:

Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.The universe began to exist.Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.

Eat that logic with a tall glass of OJ in the AM.

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 06:35 PM (aUR4R)

966 Max Planck, or as I like to call him "Suck on it Atheists"

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 10:14 PM (aUR4R)

Is this the Max Planck who was born in 1858?

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 06:40 PM (L9te5)

967 P.S. Antony Flew, condolences on your death at the age of 87 in 2010. But congratulations on figuring out how to use the Internet after your demise!

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 06:45 PM (L9te5)

968 I also find it interesting that (Christian) religion is also supposed to be all about oppressing women when a century ago, when a woman in the West couldn't so much as open a bank account or travel without a man, young women could explore the world quite on their own as a single, independent woman as a missionary translator, linguist, teacher or nurse. Be it Catholic nuns or the equivalent protestant women, the church gave them a place to build their lives apart from the stifling demands of society.

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 06:47 PM (7/PU+)

969 936 Oh, and William Lane Craig is right too:

Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.The universe began to exist.Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
Eat that logic with a tall glass of OJ in the AM.

Craig is actually cribbing heavily from the cosmological argument originated by St Augustine in the 4th century and thoroughly expanded by St Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century.

Posted by: Yep at February 27, 2014 06:47 PM (Ojgjr)

970

CQD at February 27, 2014 10:40 PM (L9te5)

He died in 1947. He originated quantum theory. What, is he not up to date enough for you? Science has moved on, so what he said about a higher being is now obsolete?

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 06:47 PM (R3gO3)

971 Yeah, the one born in 1858. Would you like to refute his 210 IQ quote or just mumble on about "el oh el he say dat a loong term agoo"?

I'll await your poor logic.

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 06:50 PM (aUR4R)

972 P.S. Antony Flew, condolences on your death at the age of 87 in 2010. But congratulations on figuring out how to use the Internet after your demise!

Divine intervention.

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (aUR4R)

973
"Religion's job for centuries has been to silence logic and scientific developement."

Nice spelling.

Christianity was responsible for nurturing science in Western Civilization. Unlike Judaism or Islam where the Torah and Koran is the law, Christianity encouraged science because it helped give a deep understanding of how God operated in the universe. Jesuits travelled the world creating schools to educate people. Some of the colleagues I worked with came from Jesuit schools in India before moving on to IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) and to graduate schools in the US.

Methodists alone are affiliated with 117 colleges and universities having started schools such as Boston University.
http://tinyurl.com/kfla79q

Harvard began as a divinity school.

I should point out that although there have been tension points between Christian orthodoxy and science the relationship has been overwhelmingly positive with some surprises. At the turn of the 20th century it was believed that the universe was a steady state. As it turns out there was a beginning, before which time did not exist. This was predicted by St. Thomas Aquinas.

http://tinyurl.com/mfxwkkv

Posted by: Levin at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (cQ4Va)

974

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 10:45 PM (L9te5)

Again, what difference does it make that Flew died a few years ago? He was a great scientist. If you think Flew and Planck's opinions about God are obselete, because, gee, Flew was sure an old guy, well, by that token, Dawkins' ideas about God are also crap because he's gonna get old and die too. Hitchens is dead - why should we pay attention to him?

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 06:52 PM (R3gO3)

975

"Would you like to refute his 210 IQ quote or just mumble on about "el oh el he say dat a loong term agoo"?"

Now remember, "Antony," these are the logical ones, with minds like steel sieves.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 06:56 PM (R3gO3)

976 Of all people I never thought that Ace would be the one to use a false dichotomy to try to make a point. Thanks Ace. And here I thought one could acutaly read coherency from an atheist. "sigh"...fooled again.

Posted by: Buffy at February 27, 2014 07:07 PM (INAPN)

977 If there is no God,there is no sin. Therefor there is nothing wrong with vanity, or hitching up with your neighbor's wife, or lying to get ahead, etc. Sin would be relative, like political correctness. What's a sin today, will most likely not be a sin in the future, or the past.

Posted by: joecapoe at February 27, 2014 07:11 PM (THUIW)

978 Donna and V., and also "Anthony Flew": to respond to both of you simultaneously, I would just note that age matters. In addition to the point that science has progresses a bit over the last 160 years (see: flight, computers, landing on the moon, DNA, etc. etc.), here's some perspective for you:

"The book (and Flew's conversion itself) has been the subject of controversy, following an article in The New York Times Magazine alleging that Flew had mentally declined, and that the book was primarily the work of Varghese. Flew himself specifically denied this, stating that the book represented his views, although he acknowledged that due to his age Varghese had done most of the actual work of writing the book."

So, collectively, you are pretending to be a guy who is dead and citing people who have been dead for even longer. That's what I was trying to point out.

P.S. Donna and V: don't think I missed your interim comment claiming that Flew died in 1947. Where did you get that erroneous piece of data?

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 07:13 PM (L9te5)

979 Oh, and before some of you numbnuts bring up parallel universes, remember that they too are an infinite regression. Ockam's razor dictates an infinite cause even in that theoretical paradigm. You can go with the idea that said infinite cause spawned from nothing, but remember that both logic AND science would then fail inquiry. Good luck with that, materialists.

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 07:13 PM (aUR4R)

980 Yeah, the one born in 1858. Would you like to refute his 210 IQ quote or just mumble on about "el oh el he say dat a loong term agoo"?

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 10:50 PM (aUR4R)

By the way, an additional question. First, thanks for so eloquently characterizing my humble idiom of speech. But second, I am curious as to what his "210 IQ quote" might be. If you can save me some ixquicking (the safer alternative to Googling), I would be happy to peruse and respond.

If I have missed something, I apologize. But a directional indicator would still be appreciated.

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 07:22 PM (L9te5)

981 I don't know what the significance of *when* a person lived is supposed to be. The fact is that the past shows with stark clarity that religious faith does not hinder scientific inquiry in any meaningful way. These days it's the atheist scientists that are evangelical and talking about religion. Christian scientists don't generally do that because science is about science to them instead of being about God the way it seems to be for those few prominent atheists who are still trying to tell us that we *must* chose between them.

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 07:24 PM (7/PU+)

982 Ah yes, let's use Dawkin's ad hom against Flew for being 'old and senile' and 'mentally deteriorating' in his conversion. Let's look past the fact that he wrote a book about it, his reasoning is bulletproof, and interviews with him are abound on YouTube explaining his conversion in detail. Dawkins et al couldn't hold his intellectual jockstrap - even at age 80. They worshiped him. Yet they STILL hold onto his old and now self-debunked atheist ideas. They are now nothing more than sophists, and anyone who repeats their garbage is an utter fool.

Posted by: Antony Flew at February 27, 2014 07:26 PM (aUR4R)

983 950 Oh, and before some of you numbnuts bring up parallel universes, remember that they too are an infinite regression. Ockam's razor dictates an infinite cause even in that theoretical paradigm. You can go with the idea that said infinite cause spawned from nothing, but remember that both logic AND science would then fail inquiry. Good luck with that, materialists

Speaking of Ockam's razor - wouldn't you know it? It's actually a principle of logic written by William of Ockham: an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian who lived in the 13th and 14th centuries.

Posted by: Yep at February 27, 2014 07:26 PM (Ojgjr)

984 "I don't know what the significance of *when* a person lived is supposed to be. The fact is that the past shows with stark clarity that religious faith does not hinder scientific inquiry in any meaningful way.

These days it's the atheist scientists that are evangelical and talking about religion. Christian scientists don't generally do that because science is about science to them instead of being about God the way it seems to be for those few prominent atheists who are still trying to tell us that we *must* chose between them."

Posted by: Synova at February 27, 2014 11:24 PM (7/PU+)

The significance of "when" is that knowledge progresses. Even Darwin's initial thoughts have been superseded by more recent investigations, based more soundly on DNA and things like the discovery of the fossil record.

Tempus fugit, after all.

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 07:34 PM (L9te5)

985 What is the name of the famous priest who, when he discovered the criminal posing as a priest, "I knew you were an imposter when you criticized reason"?

Posted by: Windy Wilson at February 27, 2014 07:38 PM (qQnEQ)

986 915 "saying Jesus was probably a real person even though there is not one shred of evidence. Just look up Richard Carrier. Posted by: Dekay at February 27, 2014 09:47 PM (FxJzK) Then why does the Roman historian Tacitus refer to the life, trial and cruxificion of Jesus ? That famous quote can be found in most european history readers in college. Donna and V - good cites! (which I was too lazy to huntup tonight)

Posted by: Miguel de Cervantes at February 27, 2014 07:46 PM (OU1Hh)

987

Anyone who claims anybody has an IQ above 180, much less 210, is pulling it out of their ass. There is no recognized test that goes that high. (The Mensa test is BS, BTW.)

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 07:51 PM (d3MA1)

988

Oh man, if we are down to arguing the historicity of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, I'm going to bed. The atheists are really slipping around here.

Posted by: HuuskerDu at February 27, 2014 08:03 PM (d3MA1)

989 Vanity is what I call the sin of pride. You have it right Ace. Not willing to be humble. Searching for meaning or validation or whatever is a result of NOT having God in one's life. Without God what is there in the end?

Posted by: Daddy Like at February 27, 2014 08:09 PM (KIV2m)

990 So, CQD, which part of that tempus fugitting actually shows that religious faith does hinder scientific inquiry in any meaningful way? Or are you just making an Ezra Klien-type "the constitution's old and stuff, so we should get rid it" argument?

Posted by: ChicagoRefugee who is, in fact, a Real Woman at February 27, 2014 08:10 PM (C15wm)

991

P.S. Donna and V: don't think I missed your interim comment claiming that Flew died in 1947. Where did you get that erroneous piece of data?

Er, genius, I was responding to this:

Is this the Max Planck who was born in 1858?
Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 10:40 PM (L9te5)

Planck died in 1947, not Flew. It's no wonder you have no respect for the past, since you have a hard time remembering what the hell you wrote 10 minutes ago.

BTW, we're talking about wisdom, not scientific knowledge. Most people with an IQ above room temp realize that scientifc knowledge becomes obsolete over time as new discoveries are made. Wisdom, which you are so clearly lacking, is something else. It doesn't go out of date just because someone said it 50 years ago or 100 or 1000 years ago. Are insights that Aristotle, or Shakespeare or Lincoln had worthless because gee, they died a long time ago? If you think so what a remarkably shallow and provincial and narrow little mind you have.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 08:20 PM (R3gO3)

992 499 >>My own personal experience with religion is with Christianity. The prevailing thought there (though never voiced) is that is OK to do anything, as long as you are doing it to advance the cause of Christ You either a) attended a very corrupt church or b) managed not to learn anything from your personal experiences. Posted by: kartoffel at February 27, 2014 07:05 PM (1zhvB) c) Misspelled "Islam".

Posted by: Weirddave at February 27, 2014 08:26 PM (N/cFh)

993 Â“Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore, seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.Â” - St Augustine

Posted by: Yep at February 27, 2014 08:29 PM (Ojgjr)

994

"So, collectively, you are pretending to be a guy who is dead and citing people who have been dead for even longer."

You're new to this blog evidently and don't grasp the style of the place. If you scroll up through this thread alone, you'll see that people frequently employ sockpuppets to make a point. Often it's done humorously. I hate having to explain jokes to people, but, whoever is posting as "Antony Flew" is not doing so because he's dishonestly trying to convince people he's actually Antony Flew. Most of us are bright enough to grasp that.

"Citing people who are dead." Yep, just like people sometimes cite Chaucer or Jefferson or deTocqueville or Karl Marx or freakin' Casey Stengel...You know, the world did not spring into being on the day you were born. Here's a clue, little buddy - alot of really really smart people, smarter than even you and Bill Maher, lived before you. They didn't have cell phones and computers and but really, they were real bright, honestly. In fact, if they could come back from the dead and debate you or Dawkins, they'd wipe the floor with both of you without breaking a sweat.

You're another one who just proves ace's point - a combo of ignorance, narrow-mindedness and utter lack of intellectual curiousity combined with a preening arrogance and superiority.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 08:39 PM (R3gO3)

995 Excuse me, I should have said " a false sense of superiority" since you are so clearly and plainly not superior to believers, although it makes you feel good to think so.

Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 27, 2014 08:47 PM (R3gO3)

996 ""The book (and Flew's conversion itself) has been the subject of controversy, following an article in The New York Times Magazine alleging that Flew had mentally declined, and that the book was primarily the work of Varghese. Flew himself specifically denied this, stating that the book represented his views, although he acknowledged that due to his age Varghese had done most of the actual work of writing the book." This seems like a Woody Allen essay. If I were to call for the revival of the Inquisition to inquire into men's souls and judge them accordingly, you'd consider me nuts. But you encourage us to be guided by a New York Times Magazine article that purports to read minds -- to know Anthony Flew better than he knows himself, and the minds of people around him. Did we realize that Anthony Flew lacked the internet? That he wasn't reading what other people thought he ought to be reading? This is the argument of science and logic?

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 27, 2014 08:50 PM (ZM3H9)

997 Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 28, 2014 12:20 AM (R3gO3 Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 28, 2014 12:39 AM (R3gO3) And all that remained was a tiny water stain and the faintest whisp of smoke. Â“Virtue is persecuted by the wicked more than it is loved by the good.Â” ― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Posted by: Miguel de Cervantes at February 27, 2014 09:12 PM (OU1Hh)

998 > Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old? > Do you believe in a world-wide flood? > Do you deny the theory of evolution? > If the answer to any of these is "yes" you are a fool. If the answer is "no" you deny the Bible as divine truth. > Was Blaise Pascal a fool? > Was Isaac Newton a fool? > Was William Wilberforce a fool? You raise a good point. I have adjusted the questions accordingly. * Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old, after the year 1926? * Do you believe in the worldwide flood of the Bible, in any year? * Do you deny the theory of evolution, after the year 1880? If you answered yes to any of these questions, you are a fool.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2014 09:12 PM (L7NTR)

999 Posted by: Donna and V. (no ampersand) at February 28, 2014 12:20 AM (R3gO3)

I asked where you got your information. You responded with a couple of ad hominem arguments, as have your compatriots. I will not respond in kind, not even to say "neener, neener, neener."

In the interests of the fossil record, however, please note that I read your comment as replying to my observations about Anthony Flew and not Max Planck, and specifically so stated. You are correct that Max Planck died in 1947, so your comment, placed in context, was not erroneous. It would have helped a bit if you had used his name, however, instead of just saying "he" and trusting that I would then backtrack to see whether I referred to him at 10:40 or 10:45. I just went back to my most recent comment, and in that regard, I confess, the error was mine.

I think it is still appropriate, however, to note that one might as well have been citing Lord Kelvin or Jean-Baptiste Lamarck as Max Planck. He had some remarkable insights for his time, as did the others, or Pythagoras for that matter. But time marches on and what was once cutting-edge is now hopelessly out-of-date. See also: the theory of the luminiferous aether, or the sacred mystery of the dodecahedron. Trying to classify something as "wisdom" does not exempt it from the ravages of future research, analysis and revision.

The difference between philosophy and science is quite stark in this regard, however, so you should not conflate your examples (which were all philosophical or artistic in nature) with scientific ones.

Posted by: CQD at February 27, 2014 09:17 PM (L9te5)

1000 >Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old
Nowhere does the Bible teach how old or young the earth is. Its just not in there, no matter who tries to pull it out or jam it in. That's irrelevant to the scriptures.
Just thought I'd point that out. But declaring people a fool for not wholly believing a largely problematic THEORY of how to interpret data is simply laughable.
I don't want to get into it here in depth, but insisting absolute allegiance to a scientific statement is idiotic and contrary to the very work of science its self.
Science does not deal in absolutes. It deals in high degrees of probability. If you insist on absolute statements, you're in the wrong business. If you insist on absolute allegiance to scientific statements, you're just a petit fascist.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 27, 2014 09:20 PM (zfY+H)

1001 What the deuce is it to me? You say that we go around the sun. If we went around the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or my work. -- Sherlock Holmes, "A Study in Scarlet" Being right or wrong on a matter, or even having an opinion on it at all is only relevant to the degree that it impacts your decisions. The relevance to others is only in so much as your decisions impacts others. So it matters little to me if someone believes the world began the day they were born or if it started 4.5 billion years ago, by the hand of god, aliens, or gravity, so long as it doesn't negatively impact whatever service they're offering to me in any meaningful way. The people who are wrong about something for some religious reason are relevant when what they're wrong about impacts people's lives or property. Much more dangerous are people who are merely potentially wrong, but want to enforce their wrong notions though the power of the state. In this case, I imagine that people who are wrong about various notions with essentially zero negative social or economic impact are far more relevant to the arguer than people who merely the prospect of being wrong could cost our grandchildren more wealth than presently exists in the entire world.

Posted by: davem at February 27, 2014 10:08 PM (E2g2d)

1002 Harvard began as a divinity school.

It still is they just believe in their own BS now.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at February 27, 2014 10:11 PM (DL2i+)

1003 There is a growing body of evidence pointing toward the existence of a creator. Astrophysicists now know, for instance, that everything in the universe initially sprang from nothing and, in the first instant of creation, the only thing that existed was energy, which was in the form of light. (For years, atheist physicists have been trying hard to disprove the big bang theory, maybe because it sounds too close to the Bible's description of creation.) Scientists also know that the universe is finely-tuned for life. (The anthropic principle) The cosmological constant alone had to be nearly perfect for us to be here at all. And scientists also know that the odds of inorganic molecules randomly forming into the simplest single cell, given 3 billion years and entropy fighting it the entire way, are more than astronomical. This is why so many brilliant atheist physicists, such as Stephen Hawking, have theorized that life on this planet originated extra-terrestrially. They can't possibly explain it any other way. And they also unashamedly resort to multi-verse theory to explain anthropic fine-tuning, even though they realize that relativity precludes any possible future knowledge of other universes. Yet these same atheists are the first to ridicule those of us who choose to believe in a creator that cannot be observed or measured.

Posted by: Ronzo Garbanzo at February 27, 2014 10:33 PM (qRpp2)

1004 _______________________________

Ace,

Very provocative stuff. Sorry I missed it in motion.

Personally, I thought Optimizer had some of the most interesting comments to read.

Without going into detail:
It's worth noting that Ethics/Morality has no basis without Metaphysics.
Utilitarianism was an attempt to develop an "ethical model of behavior" based solely on a pain/pleasure calculus. But Utilitarianism led to absurdities like the inability to rule out justification for Nazism as well as the notion that there must be some unknown, huge number of un-returned library books that when addded up would be the moral equivalent of a murder.
Utilitarianism's physical account of desired "ethical" behavior is rightly seen as a failure. Even John Stuart Mill himself slipped once in trying to defend the messy rationale of Utilitarianism by resorting to positing the independent quality of either justice or goodness (I forget which) before having to backtrack to save his "legacy".

So that leaves Metaphysics as the only basis for Morality.
Plato (with the assistance of his mentor, Socrates) developed the first serious theory of Metaphysics: the Theory of the Forms. - With the best Form being Goodness.
Perfect Goodness is hard to fully comprehend by the mere human mind, but it's not wholly incomprehensible. That is, Perfect Goodness can in fact be known by the human mind - but perhaps only imperfectly known.
The choice of contemplating the possibility of their being an entity that is Perfect Goodness could be a very wholesome place to start.

One other consideration:
Platonic Metaphysics indicate that the Forms do not exist in space or time. - They have no physical properties whatever. (Though in some cases they have physical instances.)
Anyway, the quality of being true (truth) and the quality of being false (falsity) are excellent examples of Forms that do not adhere to physical items.
Sentences are physical items, but it is their _MEANING_ which is either true or false.

If it can be understood that truth and falsity are necessarily Metaphysical qualities (i.e., necessarily non-statiotemporal), then a real point of departure is achieved for the knower.

Anyway, I'm not offering arguments here. Just pointing at some logical possibilities worth considering - in case you haven't considered them before.
But if you already have... they are well worth reviewing.
Sometimes realizations can develop that enable the light bulb to go on, and thus a new portion of reality can be clearly seen. To whereas before - for whatever reason - it simply could not.

Posted by: _Dave_ at February 28, 2014 12:06 AM (07UzX)

1005 "Go with God, or, if you like it better, go without him. But get over your ego. You'll move faster and lighter without it." Amen.

Posted by: DiN0s4VR_Pilot at February 28, 2014 03:43 AM (XkOul)

1006

Ace, great piece, but why does matter exist?

Posted by: Draki at February 28, 2014 04:37 AM (L8r/r)

1007 The Vanity of our age is to find more and more trivial proofs that we matter. That we count. That we're better. We have a winnah! In my case, I'd prefer to not be remember per se, perhaps someone in the future will see my name in a genealogy and wonder who was that guy, someone related to me? what was he like? how would his recollections of his times compare to my history texts? So unless I establish the Sith Empire of America, I'd prefer to have no wikipedia entry...and if I do, there won't be a wikipedia entry, either...

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at February 28, 2014 05:06 AM (1hM1d)

1008 if you believe in a great flood in the past, FOOL. if you believe SUVs will cause a great flood in the future, SCIENCE.

Posted by: X at February 28, 2014 05:38 AM (KHo8t)

1009 I have the idea of a god is that he made the universe, therefore is outside of it and can never be measured by us because we can only measure what is in the universe. Also for the creationists, if God is omnipotent and onminiscent (and spells better than I), his ability to create is beyond your ability to understand, and with the above idea, we cannot measure what effect that god has on nature because everything he does is nature. I have no clue about the universe beyond that I know I will always not be able to understand most of it.

Posted by: Mellow at February 28, 2014 06:12 AM (t3Yjv)

1010 There is no conflict in believing in that evolution exists and also believing in God. I'm Roman Catholic, attended Catholic schools all the way from kindergarten through college, and never once were we taught that the earth is less than 20,000 years old, either. In fact, I daresay I got a better science education at Catholic institutions than any of my age cohort got at public institutions. That argument you make is false to begin with. And I pray that you will find God, because He is real and makes a huge difference in my life.

Posted by: Beth Donovan at February 28, 2014 06:54 AM (erg46)

1011

"You are establishing, in your mind, a hierarchy of persons, from wise to fool, based upon your own idiosyncratic What's Hot/What's Not list."

Interestingly, Ace, the Bible confirms this. Those who think they are wise try to judge the world in relation to their own greatness, and end up judging wrongly.

"I have a theory, which I frankly have not thought about very hard, but my theory is that Vanity is the handmaiden of all other sins."

It's an excellent theory, Ace. Pride *is* the first sin. Thinking yourself equivalent to God (in wisdom, at least) leads to all other sins. (Just as thinking yourself as smart(er) as your parents leads to so much pain and grief in your teen years.)

Again, the Bible confirms what you say. Too bad you don't believe in it.

Posted by: GWB at February 28, 2014 06:54 AM (Yv2t4)

1012 You see, all those begats are also provided with ages. Adam begat Seth when he was 130. Seth begat Enos when he was 105. Enos begat Cainan when he was 90. Etc. In this way, we can conclude that Noah was born in 2948 BC. Abraham in 1996 BC. This continues all the way to the fall of Jerusalem in 584 BC. That means the Earth is 6018 years old. ----------------- I'm not particularly religious, but grew up that way and still consider myself a believer so let me play Devil's Advocate here. Pardon the pun. Also, it's has been a LOOONG time since I read the bible, so any errors that I make here in my recollection of the scriptures are my own. I find it amusing that Seattle takes the work of a mortal man, whether he was a bishop or not who everyone knows is fallible and use that as a context for proving out the Earth is 6018 years old. It's a common thread that more militant athiests like to call out about the age of the earth to try and shame beleivers. I would argue that it is more likely the age of what we consider to be *human* that the bible tells about rather than the earth itself. Seattle's 6018 number is a *man's* interpretation of the Word. Theologian or not, man is fallible. Nowhere does it say in the bible that the earth was created on this day/this year. If you want to quibble about it we could say that the scriptures say that the earth was created in 6 days with God resting on the 7th, but my interpretation (also fallible) is that we cannot understand God's interpretation of time much like an amoeba cannot contemplate our interpretation of time. For instance, go try to explain a theoretical physics proof to a 5 year old. As the scriptures were dictated to those who wrote them, He said (paraphrasing here), "I knocked that shit out in 6 days got wore the hell out and took a nap all day Sunday. Like a Boss!" Do really think that the earth was created in 7 days? Shit no! I think the writers of the scriptures wrote what god told them to write. I'm a believer because there is too much wonder in the universe as well as our own tiny less than minuscule portion of it to think that it is all a giant act of randomness. It is funny how most Liberals think that the Constitution and Bill of Rights are open to all kinds of interpretation and we are fools not to think otherwise. It is a much shorter document, was written a relatively long time ago and none of the founders are left to tell us what they meant. The bible is a much longer document, was written a much longer time ago and according to liberals/athiests such as Seattle, there is absolutely no room for interpretation from the scripture. I wonder if this may be where a liberals love of double standards comes from?

Posted by: Astyrix at February 28, 2014 07:02 AM (LMb/y)

1013

Ace, You are the polar opposite of Bill Maher. I read your website everyday and is the first I turn to every morning. I think that you are nothing short of brilliant. And I'm a Christian. We both are want to save our country to make it s safe haven for all beliefs and non-beliefs. To be free. And the opportunity to prosper. What happens when we all pass over will take care of itself.

Posted by: deepred at February 28, 2014 07:07 AM (RHYM4)

1014 Great post. You hit the nail on the head, Ace. Regarding Pride/Vanity: from the Christian point of view, all sin of any stripe are rooted in these. Whether allegory or not, the original irrational lie by Satan was basically, "You shall be like God (or the gods)..." Yeah...I'mma let'chu finish, but, Bullshit... In "Christian" discussions about Original Sin, people focus on 'Lust of the Flesh' and 'Lust of the Eyes' (overtly 'immoral' appearing things: lying, murder, etc ) but typically gloss over or misunderstand "...and the Pride of Life" (Things which appear to man good or seemingly 'moral,' but are nothing more than subjective self-righteousness -> Vanity) For instance, there are loads of people who believe (wrongly) that man can or should be able to keep the Ten Commandments and thus become righteous. Who are we kidding here? The sermon on the mount is a essentially Jesus dropping the bass on this horseshit notion. "You say this...but I say..." Jesus mission was essentially to utterly dismantle man's vanity, and redirect him at his need for a savior. Anyway, sin which falls in this 'Pride of life,' category is far more insipid and deceptive in many ways, because it simply shrouds vanity behind so-called 'goodness' or morality. The funny thing is that everyone, at some level hates self-righteous assholes. The question is - do you acknowledge and reject that aspect of yourself? In the end, all sin is the ultimate vanity: attempting to be like God - without God. And any honest Christian totally rejects this notion (an idea quite ludicrous, when seen plainly). I mean, personally speaking, on the "an asshole -to- like God," spectrum - I'm pretty hopelessly on the asshole side. John Newton perfectly summed up what is at the heart of the Christian rejection of vanity: "When I was young, I was sure of many things; now there are only two things of which I am sure: one is, that I am a miserable sinner; and the other, that Christ is an all-sufficient Saviour. He is well-taught who learns these two lessons"

Posted by: adc at February 28, 2014 07:29 AM (9BA4z)

1015

To be an atheist is to believe that everything came from nothing. That the big bang went boom and the resulting debris organized itself into solar systems capable of creating life and it all happened, because, shut up.

Atheists must believe that that there is no "intelligence" behind the design of our universe.

Believers says the intelligence came first.

Only one makes sense.

Posted by: markon at February 28, 2014 08:17 AM (Yljb/)

1016 Athiesm, the religion dedicated to ones own conceited sense of superiority. --Stephen Colbert (I think)

Posted by: Astyrix at February 28, 2014 08:21 AM (LMb/y)

1017 All the old saws are being trotted out here.

Irreducible complexity! Yawn.

Evolution is "just a theory." LOL

The Bible is against slavery! -

Wrong! The bible has rules that tell you how to treat what race of slaves. Even children born of slaves being born into a lifetime of slavery is Kosher in the Bible. Leviticus 25:44-46.

JRR Tolkein was religious! -

Look, every year that goes by, various beliefs become less and less justifiable. There was a time when believing the world flat was reasonable. People still believe in acupuncture! I get that. But everything we've learned about this planet we live on tells us that the earth was not created in 4004 BC. That all of the animal species on the planet did not walk off an ark in 2500 BC. There was a time when believing this was OK. That time has passed.

Look, I get it that lots and lots of people still believe what they were taught as children. But don't try and sell me (or any atheist) on the FACT of an omnipotent creator. It won't work. Ever. Take it on faith? Fine. I can't argue with that. Cherish your family bible. Just leave it at home when we are discussing the real world.

Posted by: seattle slough at February 28, 2014 10:19 AM (mCz8+)

1018

@987 - I detect a conceited sense of superiority in your post.

As an atheist, I'm not a fan of the a-hole type of atheists either, but its not only atheists who look down on those that believe differently. That applies to a lot of people in general. Religious persons looking down on, disdaining, ostracizing, despising, and discriminating against non-believers (or those that believe differently) is not so uncommon in my opinion. It generally gets a pass because its the norm. I think that's part of what makes it standout so much when atheists are guilty of doing the same. Atheists aren't the only ones who rent billboards and get in faces.

Posted by: prndl at February 28, 2014 11:14 AM (2Ynt1)

1019 No, I neither read the post nor the comments. I was , uh, getting busy with my mirror.

Why do you ask?

Posted by: seattle slough at February 28, 2014 12:31 PM (DNu5Y)

1020 Asterix (if you are still checking this):

There's no double standard in a living constitution and holding the bible to it's word. No one claims God wrote the Constitution. It was written by men who almost immediately added ten amendments to it. God hasn't added a chapter to the Bible (unless you are Mormon) in a couple thousand years.

That 6000 year (give or take) number is not my number. That's what Bible believing Christians believe. It's what the Bible says if you take it literally. If you think God meant billions of years when He wrote six days, that's your interpretation. I'd give your God a little more credit that he said what he meant and did not mean to be misinterpreted by a factor of 6 hundred thousand. If each of those 7 days is six hundred thousand years, what does it mean that he "rested" for one of the days? He rested for six hundred thousand years? Recall that Adam and Eve were created on day 6.

Posted by: seattle slough at February 28, 2014 12:38 PM (mCz8+)

1021 In my day, a day was 24 hours. And we liked it!

Posted by: Frank Underwood (D-SC) at February 28, 2014 02:13 PM (OpaBw)

1022 "You see, all those begats are also provided with ages. Adam begat Seth when he was 130. Seth begat Enos when he was 105. Enos begat Cainan when he was 90. Etc. In this way, we can conclude that Noah was born in 2948 BC. Abraham in 1996 BC. This continues all the way to the fall of Jerusalem in 584 BC."
This is a pretty simple one to detonate. Genealogies in the Bible, as throughout time have never been 100% sequential perfect history. People skim over a lot to get to the high points, and ignore Billy Bob and Joe the Schmoe to get to King Arthur in their past. The Bible does exactly the same thing, it shows highlights, not exactly one after another sequences.
That's why when you read the genealogies in the Bible, they can be different. Why? Because they're focusing on different things that they're trying to highlight or a point they're trying to make.
In other words, this attempt is the arithmetic of the ignorant. I don't mean that insultingly, I mean that its done by people who don't know what they're doing or how to read the Bible, by people ignorant of history and culture.
There are some people who claim it anyway, because they don't know any better, but then there are people who claim silly stuff in every movement. That doesn't make them the representative of a movement or make everyone else involved silly.
I know, I'm sorry, Seattle, your college prof told you all about this and you were sure you had those dumb Christians nailed, but its not that easy. Really did you figure it would be? We've been studying this book with religious fear for two thousand years. We noticed all the stuff you did and dealt with it long, long ago.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 28, 2014 02:31 PM (zfY+H)

1023 Christopher Taylor:

Spin away! I'm not doing anything Christopher. It's Christians who figured this out. It's Christians who insist to this day that Archbishop Ussher's calculations are accurate. William Jennings Bryan spoke of Ussher lovingly in his testimony in the Monkey trial.

And I don't get your argument against Ussher's calculations. The Bible skipped over people? It's a direct lineage. Adam begat Seth. Seth begat Enoch. Etc. Etc. This is what Christians believe. If you believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, then the earth is around 6000 years old. All Christians believed this not 100 years ago. Shakepeare. Martin Luther. John Calvin. All believed in a young earth. This is/was mainline Christian belief.

It's only recently that geology and biology have been able to prove so substantially how ridiculous this is that this has dropped below a majority of self described "Christians." If anything, this type of belief is on the rise in America. Currently 46% of Americans believe human beings were created by God less than 10,000 years ago. 46%!

If you refute this kind of nonsense, good on you. It's ridiculous and should be ridiculed. But don't for a second think that YECs (Young Earth Creationists) aren't a large part of your party. Rep. Paul Broun is a YEC (and on the Science & Technology committee!). Rep. Broun is running for Senate and he thinks every atom in the Universe is less than 10000 years old. This is true. And it's horrifying.

Posted by: seattle slough at February 28, 2014 03:26 PM (mCz8+)

1024 Neo-Darwinian evolution is a death cult. Death is the judge of worth. Death is the arbiter of justice. Death is the ultimate fitness function. No growth happens except by death's guiding hand, removing from the Malthusian game board those deemed unfit for existence. No beauty exists without the ugly being cut out and cut off by death. A universe without death is, well, the singularity from which death released it. No, Christianity and Neodarwinism are not compatible.

Posted by: rhobro at February 28, 2014 05:15 PM (jYUvz)

1025 Also, what does 1.4e10 years even mean when the sun has only existed for a small fraction of that? Periods of a cesium atom? Cesium didn't exist for some nontrivial period of time until enough stellar mass existed to form it. The fabric of space-time, the basis of all cosmological "constants", is not and has never been stable. Trying to determine the age of the universe is like trying to determine the length of a rubber band you only see a small section of. The only correct answer is, "It depends."

Posted by: rhobro at February 28, 2014 05:41 PM (jYUvz)

1026 > 991 "He rested for six hundred thousand years? Recall that Adam and Eve were created on day 6."

As Tom Servo pointed out in psalm comment 23- [with the Lord] "a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years" 2 Peter 3:8

Plus, some one mentioned that God created time, and, well one would expect not much is going to happen while he is at rest. Now, if we could just do away with the abominable Daylight Savings Scam that is about to start up in another week! God is busy creating a lovely Spring and we're deleting one of His precious "hours."

Posted by: Rex B at February 28, 2014 06:56 PM (OXzvH)

1027 "If you believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, then the earth is around 6000 years old."
Seattle, you have clearly not actually read the book you keep railing against or you'd have noticed that Jesus Christ has two different genealogies in scripture and they list different people. I'm sure your college prof mentioned this in the comparative religion course you took. You must have forgotten.
This isn't exactly new, its been well known for centuries. People do it to this day, they talk about the high points and interesting folks in their past, not every single dude. I understand that gets in the way of your "Christers are retards" high horse, and I apologize, but them's the facts, son.
Its okay, the Bible is a big book, but I encourage you to, you know, read it. Its not going to make you burst out stupid or into flames or something. Give it a try.
I mean you can quote all the stats you want. I can quote one for you: 30% of Democrats polled think President Bush had something to do with causing 9/11. A bunch think Astrology is a real science. Gosh, Democrats must all be stupid huh? I mean you can find some that are, and list stats, so it must be true about all right?
That's your argument here. Don't you see the problem with it? Please do pick up a Bible some time. You might find it surprisingly literate and well written. People have for thousands of years.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 28, 2014 09:38 PM (zfY+H)

1028 There's no double standard in a living constitution and holding the bible to it's word. No one claims God wrote the Constitution. It was written by men who almost immediately added ten amendments to it. God hasn't added a chapter to the Bible (unless you are Mormon) in a couple thousand years. -------------------------------------- Seattle, Check your scripture my friend. God did not write the bible as He is not coproreal, men received the Word and men essentially dictated it. Leaves room for "interpretation" don't you think? I don't disbelieve evolution, per se. My personally held belief is that evolution is the journey which the Lord took to create us in His image. That's just my personal interpretation. I'm a little bit of a black sheep baptist that way.

Posted by: Astyrix at March 01, 2014 12:04 AM (LMb/y)

1029 Like most everyone, there was a time in my life when I believed in God. I truly did. I believed in God and Heaven and Hell and those were all very intimidating things to have around. The idea that you were never truly alone was kind of unsettling and the concept of Hell as a real place (that you could apparently get sent to for a fairly minor trangression) was too horrifying to even process at a young age. There was also a time when I believed in a surprisingly large number of invisible gift giving entities - I believed in the Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and something we called the "Lollypop Fairy" who brought us candy when we went camping. Of that latter group, Santa was the last one I confirmed as being imaginary. But I also started doubting God/Devil/Heaven/Hell. It seemed hard to believe. And the whole thing seemed pointless. Why would anyone create a world with the sole purpose of divvying up all of it's people into people that get rewarded forever and people that get punished forever. As in the Earth was going to end at some point and most of literally everyone who ever lived were going to spend the remainder of eternity writhing in pain. Why would anyone create that? It made no sense. Once you doubt it, and you actually look for evidence of it, it all falls apart. It's a story. It's a myth. It's plain as day. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

Posted by: Seattle Slough at March 01, 2014 01:23 AM (ocgU6)

1030 I'm just going to keep on babbling about things I'm uninformed in (what, you expected me to actually pay attention in church?) and continue to suck my own pee pee while congratulating myself on my entirely make-believe brilliance. Hey, parroting Dawkins' propaganda is really hard!

Posted by: seattle slough at March 01, 2014 06:48 AM (DNu5Y)

1031 Santa Claus? I doubt people standing before the Great White Throne are going to be judged upon how well they kept their room clean.

What would convince you God exists? Miracles? They have their skeptics. Seeing Him face to face? Not even Moses was permitted to do that. But he was told "I will set you in the hollow of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand, so that you may see my back. But my face is not to be seen." This is interpreted as seeing God's glory reflected in creation. Miracles are extra.

Posted by: Rex B at March 01, 2014 08:39 AM (OXzvH)

1032 Ultimately it comes down not to what makes sense to you or what you prefer, but what is true. If its true, it doesn't have to make sense. If its false, making sense is irrelevant.
Personally not liking something or not understanding it has nothing to do with the validity or truth of a thing. It stands on its own merits, not in the light of your comprehension or preferences.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 01, 2014 09:31 AM (zfY+H)

1033 Christopher Taylor: I agree. And God is a myth no matter how much you want to believe it. Rex: I'm not sure what would convince me. It's an odd question. Suppose a being arrived on this planet from outer space tomorrow and claimed to be Jesus himself. Why would we assume he was actually Jesus? Hypothetically speaking, of course, wouldn't that being more likely be an imposter simply usurping the local religion to more easily control us? I don't believe any miracle has ever taken place so I don't much hold out for seeing one in the flesh. I assume you believe the Norse pagan Gods to be myths. What would convince you they were not? Surely, as a Christian, if Odin himself presented himself to you, you'd presume him to be an illusion of the Devil, yes? Similarly, if I saw God himself, I would presume him to be a delusion.

Posted by: Seattle Slough at March 01, 2014 10:22 AM (ocgU6)

1034 Miracles can't exist. Transcendence can't exist. All that exists is blood and soil. Death and the yet to die. If you don't accept this, then you are no true naturalist, no true atheist; you are a cowardly theist draping yourself in the comforts of technology. The fact that you seek meaning in reality means you presuppose its existence. Science itself is predicated on the stuff. You already accept the existence of God. You just don't like him.

Posted by: rhobro at March 01, 2014 12:54 PM (jYUvz)

1035 I am not sure I would want to experience any supernatural visit or even an E.T. one. Though I understand there are questions to test the veracity of clean or unclean spirits, but that is not one of my areas of deep understanding.

The thing I've wondered about "seeing God's back" is it can also mean seeing His hand in history, Divine intervention. "Fingerprints" so to speak. I grew up catholic, had been familiar with the Miracle of Fatima- Portugal 1917. The Virgin Mary is said to have appeared to the 3 young children there. Among many of the warnings she left (Letters of Fatima) one was the prophecy that the Great War would soon end, but if men didn't repent of their sins, and more people- esp Russia, weren't consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, an even greater war would happen- WW2.

Funny thing is, there are a lot of significant dates surrounding pre-established Marian Feast days and significant dates in WW2:

Catholics look at Mary as an intercessor for mankind. Surely an intercessor would be concerned with the biggest conflict of the 20th century. 3 of her most important feast days are her Immmaculate Conception, Birthday, and Assumption in to Heaven.

Immaculate Conception- December 8th, the day WW2 became a global conflict in 1941, the day the US and her Allies declared war on Japan, and the US came into war with Germany. In 1854 Pope Pius IX delared December 8th as the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

September 8th- Mary's Birth. Long established as September 8th. The day Italy would make peace with the Allies in 1943. 50 years later, as the Cold War "ends" the last Allied troops leave Berlin in 1994.

Feast of the Assumption- August 15th. It was December 8th already in Japan when Pearl Harbor was bombed, it was August 15th, 1945 in Tokyo when the confirmation became official and that Japan was intent on surrender- VJ Day. (Interesting book about last conventional bombing mission- yes many raids followed Nagasaki Bombing, was "The Last Mission" by Smith and McConnell)
VJ Day has since been changed to Sept 2nd- USS Missouri and Instrument of Surrender in Tokyo Bay.
Another fascinating date if you were in Malta is August 15th, 1942, is the Santa Maria Miracle. Operation Pedestal, badly needed convoy reaches Valletta Harbor. SS Ohio after surviving torp hit, multiple dive bomb and strafing runs in the Med. reaches her berth and sinks but not before precious oil for sub fleet is pumped out to help keep Axis supplies from getting to N Africa.

Please excuse my previous "psalm comment 23", the function to cross out psalm is not working, apparently. And was meant as a harmless joke.

Posted by: Rex B at March 01, 2014 03:13 PM (OXzvH)

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