January 25, 2014

Poor people in the media versus poor people in real life
— Monty

(I apologize for the prolonged hiatus, my groovy and beloved babies. Life doth intervene.)

Articles like this make me wonder if the bien pensant journalist-and-pundit class knows any actual poor people. I was born poor, grew up poor, and spent a good chunk of my 20's poor. Not genteel poor, either -- I mean hard, stony-bottom, empty-pocket poor. I come from poor people.

Poor people don't think about money in the same way that more well-off people do. When you're poor, money -- and the lack thereof -- informs your every moment, waking and sleeping. You know exactly, at any given moment, how much money you have, down to the penny. How much in the bank, how much in your jeans, how much in the coffee can on the counter at home. Every purchase is a choice -- if I buy this six-pack now, that means hot dogs instead of hamburger for dinner tomorrow; if I pay my cable bill, that means that instead of dinner and a movie my best girl and I get to spend a night at home watching the TV. You triage your bills -- rent comes first, then heat. Then...you decide: cable or cellphone? Who can you put off the longest? How long can you float things?
You start with the credit cards because you figure you have the right to treat yourself once in a while. If you have to sit at home instead of going out, what's wrong with having a nice flat-screen TV to watch? And then the car went south, and that blew a $500 dollar hole in your budget, so you had put your groceries and gas on the credit card that week just to make ends meet. The kids needed new clothes and shoes and supplies for school. You've got to pay the minimums on the card just to keep things going, and the balance just creeps higher and higher until you're butting up against the limit. Then you get another card, and maybe the old lady gets one too. And pretty soon...well. You wake up at night in a cold sweat because you know that bankruptcy and ruin are only a breath away. It's not just a question of if you lose your job or get sick and can't work; it's a question of losing the overtime hours you've become accustomed to, or if the wife goes back to part-time instead of full time. You realize you're barely treading water as it is; it would only take a small wave to drown you.

The thing is...when you're poor, credit isn't a way to live a life beyond your means. Your day-to-day doesn't change much. Yes, some people splurge on stupid shit like vacations and electronics and clothes. But lots of poor people just get accustomed to living just slightly beyond their means. It's stupid because it's perfectly possible to live reasonably comfortably on even a fairly low wage, but it takes one critical thing that many poor people lack -- the ability to think ahead. To plan not just a week or two ahead, but months or years ahead. Poor people don't think about the future much because honestly they feel that it doesn't hold much for them (and they're often right). The future is the end of the week; it's having enough money to make the rent and have enough left over to go to the clubs on the weekend. Credit buys little pleasures, not big ones: new shoes, a dinner out with the wife, a small gadget or some DVD's. Something to bring some pleasure into an otherwise pretty drab life.

Poor people, in short, are not stupid. They just don't see their options as being particularly varied, and they have very short time-preferences. They spend their money where they figure it will do them the most good in the short term. They don't actually use their credit differently than other people -- they use it at need, for critical out-of-budget stuff (car or home repairs, medical bills) or to purchase entertainment items (electronics, movies, etc.). The problem is that poor people can't pay down that debt. Most poor people don't go extravagantly nuts with credit cards, but the burden creeps and creeps and creeps because they can only ever pay the minimums.

I always push Dave Ramsey's course on people, and you can get some of it free through churches and civic groups. I don't agree with everything he says, but he's one of the only financial planners I know who focuses on lower-middle-class and poor folks with financial advice. Rich people don't need financial advice -- poor people do. Poor people, in general, are not victims. They are not poor because they were cheated, or because they were hampered in their careers by someone else. Mostly, they are poor because they are unskilled and made bad life choices. But even then, it is not only possible but not all that difficult to live a moderately comfortable life with a small income -- all you need is to follow some simple rules. The first of which is: avoid debt like the plague. If it's a question of buy it with cash or do without, then learn to do without.

To boil it down to gravy: poor people are poor because they behave differently than wealthier people. Change the behavior, and you change your financial situation. It really is just that simple.

Posted by: Monty at 04:48 PM | Comments (235)
Post contains 928 words, total size 5 kb.

1 Boom.

Posted by: Jmel at January 25, 2014 04:53 PM (cfFqn)

2 You yunguns and your cell phones, cable etc.  We didn't have  electricity untill I was 5. No TV untill I was in high school.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 04:54 PM (puNd6)

3 Your post gave me flashbacks. Well done.

Posted by: Votermom at January 25, 2014 04:55 PM (GSIDW)

4 No inside crapper until I was in college.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 04:55 PM (puNd6)

5 Actually, I'm pretty sure I can make people poor pretty darn easily with just my pen and phone, here.

Posted by: Jug Hussein Ears at January 25, 2014 04:56 PM (M5T54)

6 Been there, done that. Look for lots of poor old people in the future. $12,000 in social security doesn't buy much. I do wish someone could explain why Congress always wants to shut down payday loan places. It's the only way most poor people can get a loan. If they really want to help, bring back the usury laws, rein in the sale of old debts to collection agencies (who get to charge the same interest as the original loan) and stop telling us how to live.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at January 25, 2014 04:57 PM (Lqy/e)

7 Do what I do. Get some paper, some ink, a press, and go to town. Much easier than working and saving.

Posted by: The Fed at January 25, 2014 04:57 PM (eHIJJ)

8 Monty, so you do care!

no srsly, debt is a soul killer.

Posted by: willow at January 25, 2014 04:58 PM (nqBYe)

9 Jesus, you're going to give me nightmares. Hits real close to home right now.

Posted by: Jaimo at January 25, 2014 04:58 PM (nFmZ1)

10 Are you "John Cheese" at Cracked? I swear he wrote nearly the same article a while back.

Posted by: Farmer Bob at January 25, 2014 04:58 PM (tuH2W)

11 Thing is, you described some portions of my life but I never considered myself poor.

And the media's definition of poor, which by the way you didn't elaborate on after all, always includes some false assumption -- they're hungry, they have no options, they're stuck where they are by somebody else's actions or some well off person hogging all the wealth.

Posted by: Sphynx at January 25, 2014 04:59 PM (cll/q)

12 I've only bought one thing on  a payment plan.  My first home, mobile it was.  A real thing of beauty.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 05:00 PM (puNd6)

13 Helped out at an Eagle Scout project today and, in the process, learned of the existence of a nearby DollarPlus store that stocked items priced from one up to four dollars. Engaged in an extended visit, bought a few items and noted some items whose prices that I would compare against where we usually obtained our groceries. Every little bit helps.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] at January 25, 2014 05:01 PM (HsTG8)

14 Hell, most "intellectuals" and "reporters" don't know anybody who has worked in a factory, less alone someone who is down-and-out poor.

Posted by: Kermit the Forg at January 25, 2014 05:01 PM (tsz5J)

15

As a kid I was thankful for a roof over my head and some grub to eat, even if it was cold cereal.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 05:02 PM (puNd6)

16 i want rich people, i NEED rich people around. i need them to bust their asses 24/7 so i wont have to. go get that money!!!

i make good on my meager minimum wage earnings, and i have the same shit they do....and i have never, nor will ever use that old mafia scam called 'credit' (the mafia used to call it a 'vig' doncha know)

i have a pleasant balance of work and a free life, what more could one want?


Posted by: southern by the grace of I-95 at January 25, 2014 05:02 PM (DnIpv)

17
The Keeping-Up-With-the-Joneses Myth
By Derek Thompson

A graduate of Northwestern, he is a visiting research fellow at the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget at the New America Foundation. Derek has also written for Slate, BusinessWeek, and the Daily Beast. He has appeared as a guest on radio and television networks, including NPR, the BBC, CNBC, and MSNBC




And he apparently donates all of his income from the above activities to poor people to buy 40 inch LCD TVs so they don't feel deprived.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at January 25, 2014 05:03 PM (kdS6q)

18 >>14 Hell, most "intellectuals" and "reporters" don't know anybody who has worked in a factory, less alone someone who is down-and-out poor. Posted by: Kermit the Forg
<<

I think you're onto something. But I'd say that the run of the mill newspaper reporter in flyover country is pretty well acquainted with us lower caste types.

It's the ivy-leaguers who aspire for WaPo, NYT, etc. positions who, as you say, hasn't associated with many of the "unwashed" but by golly they want government assistance for them by the truckload.

Posted by: Sphynx at January 25, 2014 05:03 PM (cll/q)

19 Monty I am so very happy you posted and hope all is well.

I made a few posts on the economy last evening that reminded me of our exchanges in the old days of Doom.

Keep up the good fight.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:04 PM (TE35l)

20 "Poor people in the media" Are they the crowd of WaPo regulars who are now sobbing disconsolately over their loss of Juiceboxer Ezra Klein?

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] at January 25, 2014 05:04 PM (HsTG8)

21 There are varying levels of poor, even among empty-pocket poor. I didn't live in a house with electricity or indoor plumbing til I was 8 years old. My family on both sides would have been ashamed to be in debt to anyone for anything, even "electric".

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:05 PM (VaPOJ)

22 And HELLO, Monty! You have been missed!

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:05 PM (VaPOJ)

23 To boil it down to gravy: poor people are poor because they behave differently than wealthier people. How unbelievably racist. Everyone knows weathy people are rich because they've stolen from the poor.

Posted by: --- at January 25, 2014 05:05 PM (MMC8r)

24 I go back and forth on Dave Ramsey's no-credit-ever advice. For people who cannot use credit well, he's absolutely right, and his "snowball" approach to seemingly insurmountable debt is terrific, though.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at January 25, 2014 05:07 PM (v51LX)

25 Isn't part of the issue also that poor people tend to be dumber than non-poor people? And part of the problem of having a lower IQ is it's harder to understand and see the longer-term payoffs - leading to short term time preferences. Smarter people can see further ahead in the game of life. They are able to perceive longer term opportunities and payoffs that are literally invisible to a dumber person.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 05:08 PM (ZPrif)

26 One other new twist: I've been paying on a medical bill for over a year now. (Changed jobs and had to deal with a MRSA infection between insurances). I've been late a couple of times but always made the payments. I had some new charges added to it, as my insurance at work has a $5000 deductible. When I called them this month to say I might be late, they told me they were turning it over to collections. They said they would do that even when I offered to make my payment. They said I wasn't paying them enough, even though I am making payments on other medical bills that are already in collections for the same clinic. Medical clinics have no incentive to deal with you. You will pay what they want or they will sell the debt to a collection agency with a staff of lawyers, that doesn't even have to send you a bill to get a judgement against you.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at January 25, 2014 05:08 PM (Lqy/e)

27 One of the things that I feel is an actual crime on the part of the Education class of idiots known as the NEA is he absolute paucity in economics education from a practical standpoint for the average High School student.  The number of people aged 22 who have never been exposed to the simple concepts of interest, credit, long term solvency, and mortgages beggars the imagination.  Part and parcel is the selling of college as an innate panacea that guarantees a living no matter the coursework.

The devolution of High School into a recruiting seminar for the Student Loan to academic payola game sucks.

We need more vocational training and to restore the prestige of the American worker.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:08 PM (TE35l)

28 Silly people, it's not about actually caring about the plight of the disadvantaged. It's about appearing to care about the plight of the disadvantaged.

Posted by: The Caring at January 25, 2014 05:08 PM (MShRQ)

29 Flipped past the PBS news hour show last night and saw they were featuring a program on "food insecurity" in America.    They call it "food insecurity" now instead of "hunger" because if you were to do a program on "hunger" featuring the obese woman they featured in their story the absurdity of it all would be more evident to the viewers.  I'm not saying there isn't genuine hunger in America, but most Americans, even the poor ones, don't know what that really means.

Posted by: not the mama at January 25, 2014 05:09 PM (5dxeo)

30 Bad behavior is often due to bad perception and bad cognition.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 05:09 PM (ZPrif)

31 Our church utilizes the Dave Ramsey course. Collectively as a group challenge, we are trying to pay off a total of a million dollars in personal debt in 2014.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 05:09 PM (P6QsQ)

32 There are varying levels of poor, even among empty-pocket poor.

Yeahp. My grandmother was poor as they come, but she always kept a spotless house. She had nothing but contempt for people who lived in squalor, rich or poor. Even among the rural poor where I grew up, there were castes: the "respectable" poor and the "white trash" poor.

It doesn't cost much to keep a clean house, but somehow poverty and dirtiness always seem to go together. I think part of the problem is that time-preference thing I mentioned in the post. It's terribly easy to fall into the "why bother?" mindset when you're poor.

Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 05:10 PM (G8OwX)

33 Criminals tend to be dumb because smart people can see that the risk/reward for most crimes just isn't worth it. A dumb person doesn't see that, though.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 05:11 PM (ZPrif)

34 Eh, I don't know about the role of IQ in poverty. I think impulse control and interpersonal skills are going to be vastly more important. Every time I talk to my genius brother, who is far from financially stable, I become more convinced.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at January 25, 2014 05:11 PM (v51LX)

35 i disagree with a large portion of this article. when i lived in philly, i noted that most of the locals were poor for a damn good reason: they make stupid life choices and are horrible with money. and if you disagree, go to any 7-11 and see who buys the scratchoffs and daily lottery. go to any section 8 and count the direct tv dishes. those that make it out do so either by extreme luck or by their own hand. and they are few.

Posted by: jd at January 25, 2014 05:11 PM (JYb0T)

36 #14 is right. I was amazed a year or two ago that, of the dozens of people arguing about payday loans in the Volokh comment section, I was the only one who actually knew anyone who'd ever had one. I've never had a payday loan myself, but I have twice been in such a financial squeeze that I took out a title loan - again, something the Volokh commentariat is entirely unfamiliar with: they don't even know anyone who's ever done that.

Posted by: Dr. Weevil at January 25, 2014 05:12 PM (2jD3D)

37 25 Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 09:08 PM (ZPrif)

I do taxes, I know absolute idiots who grasp finance and the smartest person I know IQ wise has no conceptualization of value and cost in real economic terms.

Anyone capable of double digit division knows most of what they need to know to navigate home ownership.

They literally are not taught how and why money works FJ not even to the level my Jr High Home Economics teacher taught.

A lot of people my age do not appreciate how far education has fallen.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:12 PM (TE35l)

38 Good to see you back, Monty.

Posted by: garrett at January 25, 2014 05:13 PM (XgvGv)

39 Jenny I agree that impulse control  has a lot to do with  it.

remember the old saying 'burning a hole in my pocket?'

Posted by: willow at January 25, 2014 05:13 PM (nqBYe)

40 absolute paucity in economics education from a practical standpoint for the average High School student Feature, not a bug. I have no doubt that was planned at some level, no doubt by the same ones who insist on very thorough sex education. ( And I have no problem with sex ed, but it galls me that they push so hard for that when half the kids can't read or do basic math)

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:13 PM (VaPOJ)

41 I think young people just starting out tend to get in over their heads. They expect to have the lifestyle that their parents have had to work for twenty years to achieve.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 05:14 PM (P6QsQ)

42 Poor people today live like kings compared to poor people of the past. Take the path of least resistance is the modern creed.

Posted by: eman at January 25, 2014 05:14 PM (AO9UG)

43 Flatbush - I don't buy that. Too many people that came into the world amongst abject poverty have succeeded. I think that you have a point though, in the context of culture, which is to say that the truly poor are often lacking examples of true success, i.e. models or examples to aspire to. Sadly, many, many youth of today have models, but they are very bad ones. Pro athletes, entertainers, celebrities and the like. Oh..., and politicians.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 25, 2014 05:14 PM (aDwsi)

44 Give a fucking break Monty with your....Im poor rap. In this country unless you have a drug habit, or are young and knocked up or out of average intellegence, being poor is a decision. I live in a trailer in the 70's, got shot at but always had a big upside because I was employable and had a marketable personality. I never gave up, and now run a profitable business. Seed money was obtained by scabbing gasoline loads out of Bayonne during a strike. You do what you have to do to pull yourself up, from the shit you born into.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:14 PM (WCnJW)

45 Poor people don't think about the future much because honestly they feel that it doesn't hold much for them (and they're often right). That there is brilliant. I'm quite well off today because, although true today, it wasn't true for my grandparents and parents and me. We all thought about the future and worked like crazy. My son, who was brought up to think about the future and work like crazy, will be quite well off when I die and he inherits my wealth that I inherited and added to by working like crazy. That is, of course, if it's not redistributed.

Posted by: Jumpininhere at January 25, 2014 05:15 PM (eHt44)

46 Damn Monty. Nice post. I could have written this story based upon my own experiences, but I couldn't have written it as well. There is one thing that being poor does for you: It assures that should you ever escape it, you'll fight like hell to never find yourself in that predicament again. However, you know that if you do, you can handle it and can rise again. Poor people do not jump out of windows when the stock market collapses.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:16 PM (DmNpO)

47 I have twice been in such a financial squeeze that I took out a title loan - again, something the Volokh commentariat is entirely unfamiliar with: they don't even know anyone who's ever done that. Posted by: Dr. Weevil ------------------- I did the same thing - Household Finance. My first crack at establishing credit. Made damn sure it got paid off too.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 25, 2014 05:16 PM (aDwsi)

48 35 Posted by: jd at January 25, 2014 09:11 PM (JYb0T)

People who are never taught to tie their shoes tend to have callused feet jd.

You hand a person who does not grasp what money is a million dollars they will in all likelihood have a million dollars worth of bric-a-brac and indulgences.

Hell my simple debt line crept back up towards 5 figures last year despite my thinking I had been a good boy.

I have little problem paying 1200 at a time if need be, BUT put a person who doesn't understand what that interest is costing them and they'll find other uses for 900 of the 1200 I assure you.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:16 PM (TE35l)

49 they are doing what they always do. they shoehorn "the poor" into their leftist biases and then try to explain it within that framework. the poor are just an abstract entity, not real people.

Posted by: chemjeff on the phone at January 25, 2014 05:17 PM (/B0pU)

50 A large percentage of the poor are young single mothers, never married. The best anti-poverty program is an intact family.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 05:17 PM (P6QsQ)

51 I would say there are plenty of "rich" people who have the same spending habits of "poor" people. I liked the article though

Posted by: BacktoGA at January 25, 2014 05:18 PM (4DSQv)

52 Monty sir. That was a good read.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at January 25, 2014 05:18 PM (4Mv1T)

53 I did the same thing - Household Finance. My first crack at establishing credit. Made damn sure it got paid off too. *** American General Finance saved my ass a couple of times.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:18 PM (DmNpO)

54 Ronster: "As a kid I was thankful for a roof over my head and some grub to eat, even if it was cold cereal."

What if it was Kaboom? Still grateful? Look what it did to Ace.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 25, 2014 05:19 PM (eHIJJ)

55 To boil it down to gravy: poor people are poor because they behave differently than wealthier people. Change the behavior, and you change your financial situation. It really is just that simple.


That's racisty racist talk.  Racist!  Raaayyyyciiiissssss!!!

Posted by: Country Singer at January 25, 2014 05:19 PM (CWquH)

56 We have no poor in America. "50 A large percentage of the poor are young single mothers, never married." Well-fed off EBT cards, free or subsidized housing and childcare.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at January 25, 2014 05:19 PM (tcK++)

57 My boyfriend has two pieces of paid off property. (Neither can be sold right now, without being probated). Both are behind in taxes, so every year we have to come up with about $5500 in property taxes to keep from losing them. We do this on his disability and my fairly low paying job. So yeah, when trying to pay those taxes, we game anything we can to come up with the money. I really hope we can figure out a way to get out from under it.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at January 25, 2014 05:19 PM (Lqy/e)

58

 Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 09:08 PM (TE35l)

 

Very well  said.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 05:20 PM (puNd6)

59 44 Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 09:14 PM (WCnJW)

Monty worked his way out, as did I, Tammy al-thor, NDH and others red.

What Monty is saying is at some point it either clicks or it doesn't or you are taught or you're not.

The difference between far too many of the poor in 2014 versus the poor of 1983 is we had a leader who spoke to us and said "I believe in you and I know YOU will succeed" and now there's an asshole who says, "vote for me because I am the difference between life and death and hey YOU are entitled."

It's character in the end and this environment where it is far too easy to feel you are rewarded for bad character is by design.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:20 PM (TE35l)

60 True survivors always live way below their means. My Dad told me this 40 years ago. Good advise.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:21 PM (WCnJW)

61 40 Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 09:13 PM (VaPOJ)

It is very much on purpose and a big part of it is the Billy Ayers types in the 600 level Education courses.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:22 PM (TE35l)

62 "and if you disagree, go to any 7-11 and see who buys the scratchoffs and daily lottery. go to any section 8 and count the direct tv dishes."

Think of these things as "choices". Not necessarily *stupid* choices, just...choices. A or B. What would the money have gone had it not been spent on lottery tickets or Dish TV? If into a bank account to accrue interest or to pay off debt, good. If squandered on a bad dice-throw or a hit of meth, not so good. Scratch-off tickets are a small pleasure for a lot of people. A waste of money, so I would say...but then it's not my money. It's their money. They decide where it's best used.

This is the point about time preferences. Being poor means that next month is about as far as your thinking goes. Next year is an impossibly long time away, and retirement? Shiiiiiit. Might as well be a million  years away. No point at all in planning for something that might not even come, and that I might not even live to see.

It's how many if not most American poor people think. The average "poor" American is fabulously wealthy in global terms, and even on a moderate wage you can live a pretty comfortable life if you manage your finances with longer time-horizons. But people with short time-horizons just don't think that way -- and after a certain point in life, I don't think they're *capable* of thinking any other way.

Unless you catch someone pretty young and change their mind, they'll carry that same "poor" mindset everywhere they go. They might hit the lottery or get paid millions to play pro sports, but give them time and they'll be right back in the poorhouse again because their *mind* never changed.

It's not the money, or lack of it, that makes a person poor. It's the mentality, the attitude. I'm not even going to say "intelligence", because as other people have noted a high IQ is no proof against being lousy with money.

Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 05:22 PM (G8OwX)

63 I live in a trailer in the 70's, --------------- heh. Me too. Although the thing hadn't 'trailed' in 30 years. It was nasty. And to make things worse, it was located down at the bottom of an embankment. At the top of the embankment was a little grocery store. The drain from the ice-packed cooler where they kept their fish ran down the embankment. Got pretty ripe during the summer. The little 'trailer' park was nothing but rentals. There was one large mailbox for everyone that lived there, so you had to sort through everything to find your mail. More than half of the envelopes had the return address of Parole Officers. Good times, good times..

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 25, 2014 05:22 PM (aDwsi)

64 *glares at credit card*

I'll have it paid off this year, come hell or high water.

Good article, Monty.  I was reminded of what someone said some years ago how students at "poor" high schools were more likely to blow money on the limo, hotel room, tuxes, and other luxuries at prom than kids from middle class families. They viewed it as a last hurrah before entering real life, whereas the middle class kids were more likely to see a future with college, good jobs, etc.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at January 25, 2014 05:23 PM (lr3d7)

65 Being poor when young and single is not a big problem. I lived paycheck to paycheck for years and never missed more than one meal. Being poor with a family depending on you is an entirely different thing. Divorce makes it worse. Family law doesn't care what your situation is if you can't pay your child support. I have a friend who owes back child support to two different women. They yanked his driver's license. He can't work without a driver's license. If he can't work, he can't pay his CS. Family law is a huge source of poverty.

Posted by: Frankly at January 25, 2014 05:23 PM (I2k0q)

66 Sven, I was just wondering how old you are, because you seem like a sage. Well, you are. So?? And Hi Monty- miss your doom

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 05:24 PM (Sptt8)

67
Good to see you Monty, although I would say these days choosing between food and something else isn't really a problem from what I have seen.  Ask some grocery people you know and you will be riddled with lobster purchases or $130 birthday cakes from the ebt.

But your point remains, debt is the death of a future.  I never understood how people feel comfortable making decisions based on the payment amount only.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 25, 2014 05:26 PM (n0DEs)

68 I was born a poor black child.

Posted by: Navin Johnson at January 25, 2014 05:26 PM (MShRQ)

69 62  If into a bank account to accrue interest or to pay off debt, good.  Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 09:22 PM (G8OwX)
If only they could accrue anything at the bank these days.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at January 25, 2014 05:27 PM (m2Pxu)

70 If you dont want to be poor go to HVAC school. Its cheap and you will always have a job, if you show up. DUmb Americans.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:27 PM (WCnJW)

71 This short little mantra is the basis of my financial life : Give Save Live on the rest. I repeat this in my sleep.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 05:27 PM (P6QsQ)

72 I agree with Sven to an extent, but I will also say that some of it is also a matter of having some pride, drive and/or ambition; with me, it was mostly just curiosity. I wanted to see more of the world than my little patch of the Blue Ridge. But most people don't venture far outside their own world, regardless of their socio-economic status, so if you're born into poverty, the odds are good you'll stay there, because you make choices based on what you know, what you're comfortable with, and how willing you are to take chances, as well as, again, having something in your make-up that motivates you in some way to change your circumstances.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:27 PM (VaPOJ)

73 58 Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 09:20 PM (puNd6)

Thanks, I am deeply ashamed I gave in to my fears and quit my history education degree in a rage over political correctness.  What I was witnessing made me ill and rather than try to fight I left and went to work in a blue collar job that was literally like a drug to me.  Air Cargo work was the closest I ever got to the high of being in a well-oiled fire team in the army.

I wonder how many conservatives in the education coursework in the period between 1992-1996 did the same thing as I and whether we are collectively complicit in the vapidity of the modern student because rather than being 15 years in our careers we are in other fields?

If the answer winds up being yes when I have eternity to ponder it I will probably spend a few millennia wondering if my fingerprints are not in part on the death of the enlightenment.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:27 PM (TE35l)

74 You know, thinking of Dave Ramsey, and other comments about levels of poverty, I'm reminded of something else Ramsey pounds all the time: "poor" is not the same as "broke". Sometimes the line between the two can blur, sometimes it can be damn near invisible, but it's important. I think that it's psychological, too. I grew up privileged, honestly, and then (through my own choices, including parenthood) was in "poverty" for my late teens-mid twenties. Thinking of myself as temporarily "broke" rather identifying myself as a poor person probably made a huge difference in my ability to really build a future that did not include poverty. Comparing myself to my SIL (who, with my husband was raised in poverty and dysfunction) I think that's the major difference---I'm definitely not smarter than she and a lot of our "big" choices are relatively similar.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at January 25, 2014 05:28 PM (v51LX)

75 It took me most of my life to learn about compound interest. Most of my life learning about paying interest instead of receiving interest.

With current stock market conditions, and the federal government debasing the dollar, there aren't any good places to invest a surplus. The thing to do in this market is develop a talent, any talent that lets you earn money by working for yourself. Working for someone else is slow starvation.

Sure, you can work for someone else, and live a frugal life style, but the secret to great wealth is getting people to work for you, not the other way around.

Posted by: Wolund Kismetie at January 25, 2014 05:28 PM (QMdj4)

76 Rich people behave the same way with a few key differences. They are much more disciplined with their entertainment dollars and they know what to invest in and they tend to think long term. They also follow Ramsey's advice about money in a open hand and money in a closed hand. This is probably the biggest difference. That being said it is better to be poor in the USA than be poor anywhere else!

Posted by: The Man From Athens at January 25, 2014 05:28 PM (C+kFQ)

77 This is truth.

Posted by: Geraldine Ferraro at January 25, 2014 05:28 PM (NrUm4)

78 I've read previously that one of the best predictors is the marshmallow test. You put a kid alone with a marshmallow and tell them if they can resist eating it until you get back then they can have two marshmallows. It's a test of self-control. But it correlates with IQ. A big part of what IQ does is allow a person to run simulations of the future and choose between actions today to generate a better future. Like a chess computer, the higher your IQ the moves moves ahead you can predict. Of course, some high IQ people have other personality flaws that lead them to choose crime and most lower IQ people aren't criminals. That's where just instilling from birth that actions like stealing are wrong, no need to game it out. But the reason so many criminals do things that seem so obviously dumb and so likely to end up being caught and in jail is because ... it's not that obvious to them on account of being stupid.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 05:29 PM (ZPrif)

79 Hey 63 was that TP in Wisco?

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:29 PM (WCnJW)

80

What if it was Kaboom? Still grateful? Look what it did to Ace.

 

Good point.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 05:29 PM (puNd6)

81 If the answer winds up being yes when I have eternity to ponder it I will probably spend a few millennia wondering if my fingerprints are not in part on the death of the enlightenment. Posted by: Sven ----------------- Same here. Too often I have been a tacit enabler, if only by sins of omission.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 25, 2014 05:29 PM (aDwsi)

82 66 Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 09:24 PM (Sptt

I'm 41.5 years ma'am.  I left home at 15 and joined the army at 17.  Lost my dream career before twenty and was a drop-out by 25.

Sorry if I seem precocious.

I've been depressed all week, and I am seriously considering that we are doomed to lose.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:29 PM (TE35l)

83 Don't want to piss anybody off, but,,,
Say, if you feed a families kids at school twice or thrice a day, and then pay the families grocery bills, and rent , annnnddd, give them a effffing check for walking around money each month? And they make righteous bucks selling dope/pussy on top of that 'charity'? Those assholes will get fat. All of them, kids to grandma. Where else in the world are there so many 'poor' fat people? Sue me.

Posted by: Erowmero at January 25, 2014 05:30 PM (OONaw)

84 You know, I wonder about that idea that the middle class somehow do a better job of managing their money. I think they just have more resources to get back out of debt. I see so many people that seem to just go out and buy stuff and I wonder where the money comes from. I can't imagine going out and spending several hundred dollars on clothes.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at January 25, 2014 05:31 PM (Lqy/e)

85 Monty, are you on twitter?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:32 PM (DmNpO)

86 Papa told me 'yo Tony if you wanna have a kid make sure you have ten grand in the bank.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:33 PM (WCnJW)

87 I've come to the conclusion that nobody has any money. Notsothoreau- instead of the word "resources" to get out of debt, I think they have more "levers" to pull. Instead of balancing a cable payment vs a dinner, the middle class/upper class are balancing eating out at the club vs ordering pizza in

Posted by: BacktoGA at January 25, 2014 05:33 PM (4DSQv)

88 Good stuff, Sir. The consumer credit curve has bottomed and a month or so back that fact was hailed as a portent of, finally, a Recovery. This week every one realizes people have just been buying groceries on credit. It's not light at the end of the tunnel, but low blood sugar. Courage, as bad as 2014 will be, its not the bottom.

Posted by: gary gulrud at January 25, 2014 05:33 PM (Ji0O2)

89 Dammit, I'm older than Sven, and not near as sagey.

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 05:33 PM (Sptt8)

90 Oh and a lot of those high dollar food purchases on EBT cards are used to generate cash. You go into any rural grocery stores and see 12 cases of Mt Dew and Pepsi being bought with an EBT card, and I promise you it will be sold for half the cost within a day.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:33 PM (VaPOJ)

91 Welcome back Monty.  We were just talking the other day about how much we missed you.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at January 25, 2014 05:34 PM (jucos)

92 There is a minimum IQ necessary to understand the concept of compound interest. There's a non-trivial slice of humanity that can't ever really grasp it.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 05:34 PM (ZPrif)

93 Unfortunately, it's not just educational but government macroeconomic policies that work against practices that were traditionally sound. Seen how much interest a typical bank savings account accrues lately? Against inflation, getting a CD is hardly worth it anymore, and may in fact be a waste by the time Zero and Helicopter Ben are through.

Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 05:36 PM (fOFYL)

94 "Monty, are you on twitter?"

You've read my stuff. I can't even get half a thought out in under four hundred words. 140 characters? No way, man. I tried to run a DOOM feed for awhile, but that's just too much damned work. And I'm a lazy, lazy man.

Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 05:37 PM (G8OwX)

95 89 Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 09:33 PM (Sptt

I'd never have guess you were older, and I'd never say you were not a sage ma'am.

I started helping my mother run the family budget at 8 and 9 years old.

I'm not smart so much as scuffed up and durable.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:37 PM (TE35l)

96 Sue me. Posted by: Erowmero at January 25, 2014 09:30 PM (OONaw) Been saying that for years. They're starting to send food home for dinner and weekends in CA. So what do they need food stamps for??? And someone (often many someones) in all these houses is making money somehow, selling dope, themselves, working for cash under the table or braiding hair.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:37 PM (VaPOJ)

97 @AOSDOOM, I believe. Or something similar.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at January 25, 2014 05:38 PM (GEICT)

98

It's possible to be poor and financially stable, I've done it for the last decade, it just involves learning to live like a monk and avoiding doctors, lawyers, and repairmen as much as humanly possible.  Self-discipline and the ability to not worry about the future (which is going to eat you no matter what, so why worry about it?) are important.  Internet and one meal out per week are my only luxuries, and barely fit into my budget.  Debt has been avoided aside from the highly necessary car and the student loan that they said would open doors for me, and really didn't (the bastards.)  So all I really do is go to work, go home, and noodle around on the internet.  Not very exciting, but when you're poor, excitement is usually a very bad thing.

 

Recently got a new job that's not a dead-end job, and I'm hoping the career potential pans out, my means start to increase, and I can finally get health insurance.  The good habits I've learned from the last decade will probably help me manage my finances well for the rest of my life.  Your circumstances may define you, but this is still the land of opportunity.  Look for ways, last until you find them, and jump in and go whole hog on them when they arrive because there's no telling how long it'll be before another chance comes along.  I did and I may finally have my ticket out of the endless crush.

Posted by: Cato at January 25, 2014 05:38 PM (i+Vw2)

99 Its almost amusing how dumb americans, dont know how to establish credit, and dont have the disipline to use credit properly.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:38 PM (WCnJW)

100 "My other piece of advice, Copperfield," said Mr. Micawber, "you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at January 25, 2014 05:38 PM (LWu6U)

101 When I got my first job, I lived in a craphole apartment and saved 20% of my income, so I could pay for grad school and eventually buy a house.    When I finished    my grad degree (cash) I purchased a cheap house that I fixed up myself, and still saved 20% of my income.      I sold that house at a profit, and purchased a larger    house that needed fixing up, but     one    I could afford and still save 20% of my income.   When I felt that I could afford it, I got married, and still saved 20% of my income.  After some more saving, we started having kids.  I still save 20% of my income.     If you look very closely at the story, you will see the secret to my success.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 25, 2014 05:38 PM (/i3Yt)

102

@AosHQDOOM, but as Monty said, it's a dormant account.

 

Damn, the shit I remember even though I'm closing in on 10 months since I deleted my Twitter account.

Posted by: steveegg at January 25, 2014 05:40 PM (o44nj)

103 I just spent a fortune on a new roof & 14 new windows on my house. I have mortgage and auto loan. There was no way I was taking another loan. I took it from retirement plan and glad I did. IÂ’m seriously cutting back on everything. I hope the new windows help with oil heat bill, they should. I am waiting for papers from Mass. Saves for 75% off insulation up to $2,000 per unit. There are two in my home. I cancelled all the premium channels on cable except Showtime. ItÂ’s the only one I watch. I will finally get something free!!

Posted by: Carol at January 25, 2014 05:40 PM (z4WKX)

104 Re the poor and dependency... I grew up with poor grandparents who barely made ends meet but when my other was a teen they bought a 3-room house in a sandspur patch and added on until it was a 3-bedroom house with indoor plumbing. In my early teens my sister and I moved with our single mother into a section-8 housing development called Eureka Gardens. There was no shortage of dopers and cheaters and lazy folks living there but, mostly, it was people who, once they found themselves there, allowed the shame of it to overtake them to the point that they felt safer, comfortable, only around others in a like situation. Dependency destroys the psyche on both an individual and societal scale. Very few of us made it out of "the life" and, in my case, it was because I took the opposite tack: I refused to live in shame.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:40 PM (DmNpO)

105 92 There is a minimum IQ necessary to understand the concept of compound interest. There's a non-trivial slice of humanity that can't ever really grasp it. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 09:34 PM (ZPrif) It's powerful shit, too.

Posted by: Albert Einstein at January 25, 2014 05:40 PM (fOFYL)

106 94 Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 09:37 PM (G8OwX)

Monty I don't give out praise as I am about to lightly, and I offer this analysis humbly and not as a burden.

You could link to your postings on twitter and there are features for long tweets.  In the same sense I wonder if my fingerprints are on the death of the enlightenment it is vital that some of us try to teach the Twitter kids economics and the principles that will empower them.  I know your time is valuable but the rewards when you know a kid form the 9th ward in NOLA "gets it" or thanks you for exposure to Friedman or Hayek is like gold for the soul.

I miss you, your words and analysis were like salve for my heart, but again I know you are busy and I would never deign to begrudge you your time.

All the best,
sven

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:40 PM (TE35l)

107 Cato I wish you all kinds of good things for your future.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 05:41 PM (P6QsQ)

108 (101) thank you.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:41 PM (WCnJW)

109 Its almost amusing how dumb americans, dont know how to establish credit, and dont have the disipline to use credit properly."

---'credit' is a scam. its a lifted system from the old mafia. my family and myself have NEVER used credit and live better than most on our every day earnings.

...and we have the top material things most 'rich' people own. with ZERO debt.

in other words...youre an idiot.

Posted by: southern by the grace of I-95 at January 25, 2014 05:42 PM (DnIpv)

110 phone died, but I had to hop on laptop to tell you Sven I am sorry you are depressed and hope you have your health. Here, I'll give you a little humor you may appreciate, having had to scratch through some tough times. My husband found a big, new, wrapped roll of commercial toilet paper in my bag and asked me about it. I simply told him that I do not wish to ever lose my touch.

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 05:42 PM (Sptt8)

111 Read some article the other day about one of the Power Couples of the Beltway, both of course who feel they got to their high place through merit, not their longtime Democrat parents connections. They are MSNBC host Alex Wagner and WH chef and Salad Czar Sam Kass They mentioned how a trip to the designer dinnerware store sets them back at least $500 every time. $500 to us actual peons is usually the difference between fixing the car or paying the rent/mortgage. http://tinyurl.com/q4ldaq8

Posted by: kbdabear at January 25, 2014 05:42 PM (aTXUx)

112 ...it just involves learning to live like a monk and avoiding doctors, lawyers, and repairmen as much as humanly possible. *** The Miracle and the Blessing of the internet: How-to videos on You Tube.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:42 PM (DmNpO)

113 today it came down to lunch at denny's money AND ammo money versus a new .45 I guess I need to go hungry for a week or two

Posted by: navycopjoe at January 25, 2014 05:42 PM (At8tV)

114 There really is a difference in how people think of money. I come from blue collar Okies, had a single mom back in the 50s when it wasn't common. Folks in my family pay bills when they have the money because you just don't know how long you can hold onto it. I once worked with a project manager. Her husband was a bigwig at Nike and she'd obviously come from well to do parents. She told me her dad never ever paid a bill until the last possible day. I am assuming he kept his money in the bank and earned interest on it. This is still a foreign concept to me.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at January 25, 2014 05:44 PM (Lqy/e)

115 Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 09:38 PM (WCnJW) It's not amusing, it's pathetic and I think the Dems have plotted it for years. Welfare is the biggest perpetuator of poverty, and they love to push it. And they no longer teach basic financial stuff in school any more. In my Home Ec class my freshman year of high school, we had a semester that included how to fill out a check and keep the register, etc. We had a fake budget and had to stick to it, etc.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:44 PM (VaPOJ)

116 (103) Carol do you have room for a boarder?

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:44 PM (WCnJW)

117 We are all quite in awe of the fact that you, Monte, were able to overcome your poor roots. The rest of your post is bullshit. I grew up upper middle class. Now I am struggling to feed my children. And God willing that struggle will continue for the rest of my days. Monty, you are peddling classist bullshit, when we face far bigger problems than that. Our problem is not laziness, it is liberty.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at January 25, 2014 05:44 PM (Smrwo)

118
I will say this though.  There is a middle class squeeze going on right now, and its purposeful.  Things that you need are going up fast, things that are just wants, not so much.  Food, energy, rent, property taxes (rent to govt), sales taxes, health care, water and sewer, phone, car insurance, all being pushed up.  And you are getting zilch in interest at the bank.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 25, 2014 05:44 PM (n0DEs)

119 Yup, I can recall the rusted-out car like it was yesterday. Just campaign hard and you can get free trips every week like I do!

Posted by: Moochzilla at January 25, 2014 05:46 PM (fOFYL)

120 I wonder about that idea that the middle class somehow do a better job of managing their money. I think they just have more resources to get back out of debt. I see so many people that seem to just go out and buy stuff and I wonder where the money comes from Totally agree, I see so many co-workers, and friends that have all the toys, new(er) cars etc., yet I know approximately what they are making and I wonder "When is the house of cards collapsing?"

Posted by: PMRich at January 25, 2014 05:46 PM (x/BtJ)

121 Was it Krugtron or "Cliff" Freedman who said that the more debt you take on, the richer you are? The Federal debt is the equivalent of taking out a payday loan to make the payments on the credit cards

Posted by: kbdabear at January 25, 2014 05:46 PM (aTXUx)

122 whereas the middle class kids were more likely to see a future with college, good jobs

That was then, this is now.  These days, those middle class college grads are just as likely to start at Walmart as they are in some $30k/yr entry level no-heavy-lifting job.

Looking at job listings, I'm seeing a lot of tech jobs demanding 5-7 years experience with extensive laundry lists of mandatory skills nobody on the planet has...other than the last guy who walked away from that job last week.  And if that guy walked away from it in this shitty economy, you gotta wonder if maybe he there wasn't a very good reason, and that outfit is one to steer clear of.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/s] at January 25, 2014 05:47 PM (zxsxA)

123 93 Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 09:36 PM (fOFYL)

By design, the anemic interest rates are a byproduct of a wastrel federal government that is hiding behind the excuse of a perpetual war to justify their spendthrift ways rather than face the daunting need for entitlement reform.

The Republican party probably wasted the last opportunity the United States had to save itself in 2012 when the selection of Paul Ryan was not used to speak to the 18-26 year olds frankly about why they needed to empower the GOP so they can be freed of the Ponzi programs.

Had we opened that door and sold them on regulatory reform as well we may have ushered in a new American renaissance.

Instead we had a guy so jaded and cowed by not wanting to be controversial and interfere with Romney's "coasting to victory" that he let Joey Plugz who was acting like a person's Meth Addict Great Uncle roll him.

Monty had less faith than I did that the political solution would work, and as it turns out his wariness was well founded.

We have the tools and judgement to help rebuild, and the question now is how much time will we have left after the collapse to try to make what comes next pay at a minimum lip-service to the founding.

When the people over the age of ~32 die out the Old America will be completely gone as we see the best parts of its adherents dying every day now putting the WW2 gen to blissful eternity.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:48 PM (TE35l)

124

I learned a long time ago, it's not how much you make, it's how much you spend.

 

I hate paying anyone to do anything for me.  As I'm now at an age I can't do everything I used to do it still pains me to pay someone else.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 05:48 PM (puNd6)

125 Welfare is the biggest perpetuator of poverty, and they love to push it. And they no longer teach basic financial stuff in school any more. In my Home Ec class my freshman year of high school, we had a semester that included how to fill out a check and keep the register, etc. We had a fake budget and had to stick to it, etc. *** Where I grew up we were required in two years of junior high to take a quarter of each, each year: Business, Home Ec, Agriculture, and Woodshop. Then again, in my district back then they also allowed students to be divided into classes based upon performance and ability: A-class, B-class, etc... that has since ended because "self-esteem".

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:49 PM (DmNpO)

126 (109) I agree that credit is a fall back position, in personal finance, but it is important to establish it. How you use it is the important thing .BTW im not an idiot, but just a friendly moron on a sat. Nite.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:49 PM (WCnJW)

127 Very few of us made it out of "the life" and, in my case, it was because I took the opposite tack: I refused to live in shame. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 09:40 PM (DmNpO) That's exactly what I meant in my reply above about pride, etc. You see this also in very rural, hillbilly areas; they are afraid to even try and get a job outside the hills because they're ashamed and afraid to get laughed at. My parents and grandparents taught us to always hold our heads high and not worry about what anyone else thought about us. I have never, ever been ashamed of my upbringing, and in fact am very proud if it.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:50 PM (VaPOJ)

128 Outdoor hockey in LA. Kinda neat.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at January 25, 2014 05:50 PM (ZPrif)

129 Welfare is the biggest perpetuator of poverty, and they love to push it. And they no longer teach basic financial stuff in school any more. In my Home Ec class my freshman year of high school, we had a semester that included how to fill out a check and keep the register, etc. We had a fake budget and had to stick to it, etc. Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 09:44 PM (VaPOJ) I never had any of that in school, BUT I grew up around a family owned business. I heard all about double taxation, about dealing governmental regulations, about fees and licenses and dealing with employees. I have a grandfather who still does a lot of our books by hand. He sat me down about the time I was graduating high school and taught me double entry bookkeeping. He showed me how he and my grandmother (who were pretty damn poor when they got married) developed a budget and how they stuck to it. I got a real education. Life is the best instruction.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at January 25, 2014 05:50 PM (GEICT)

130 " In the same sense I wonder if my fingerprints are on the death of the enlightenment"

It's not your burden, sven. Don't carry it. Futility is the human condition: no one survives the experiment. King or pauper, the end is always the same. All you can do is the best you can do.

I live my life by this credo: I don't try to be a great man. I just try to be a good one.

Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 05:50 PM (G8OwX)

131 117 Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at January 25, 2014 09:44 PM (Smrwo)

Herr the "laziness" and the lack of liberty are entwined.  The United States has exported its industry along with its pollution and wealth potential to China my friend.  Liberals have decided we are a theme park and the rich liberals are pissed off you middle class types have too much swag and are killing Gaia.

Take a High Speed Train that never quite gets built and save the planet man.

It's a trap Herr, and it has me soulsick.

Pray for the nation my friend and I'll pray for you.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:50 PM (TE35l)

132 Krugman has argued that what we need now is inflation, to, you know, perk the economy up.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 25, 2014 05:50 PM (aDwsi)

133 Ah yes. You tube repair videos. Those can be very handy.

Posted by: CDR M at January 25, 2014 05:51 PM (LsJl8)

134 The middle class is indeed being squeezed, but    the most frustrating part of it is that    the welfare state exacerbates it.        In Texas (not the most welfare-friendly state I'm sure)   a family of four gets EBT benefits of something like $700 per month. 

Being that I pay for     those EBT     benefits with my taxes, I wish I could spend that much on groceries, but I guess I can't, since I have to pay     the bill for someone who can't be bothered to get a job.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 25, 2014 05:51 PM (/i3Yt)

135 We were so poor after my parents divorced that we got our groceries after the store closed, in the dark behind the store. My mom worked day and night, and still does at 75. My mom currently lives in abject poverty, and my dad is a multi multi. I would like to help my mom more than I do, but she keeps my 300 lb sister who is appealing her disability ruling and the 300 lb boyfriend who is on disability in the basement. Hey, everybody has something like this in their family, right???

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 05:52 PM (Sptt8)

136 130 Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 09:50 PM (G8OwX)


Thanks for the kind words, we are the LAST chance Lockeian notions of innate liberty being the sole justification for the existence of power under moral pretenses has Monty.

When it dies here it is gone.

My God I could fill a river with my tears.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:52 PM (TE35l)

137 $700 a month?? Wow.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 05:52 PM (P6QsQ)

138 When the people over the age of ~32 die out the Old America will be completely gone as we see the best parts of its adherents dying every day now putting the WW2 gen to blissful eternity. Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 09:48 PM (TE35l) --Great, thanks for putting me with "Old" America. Seriously, though, I wonder if it was the younger cohort of Gen Xers going for BJ in '92 and '96 that may have been the beginning of the end.

Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 05:52 PM (fOFYL)

139 That was then, this is now. These days, those middle class college grads are just as likely to start at Walmart as they are in some $30k/yr entry level no-heavy-lifting job. *** We were talking about it in a thread a couple of days ago. With the economy in the tank kids are staying in school longer because there's nowhere else to go. In the next few couple of years the job market will be flooded with the most credentialed though lease experienced workforce in history. And, as I added in a prior thread, will mostly think they can do your job better than you.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:53 PM (DmNpO)

140 They expect to have the lifestyle that their parents have had to work for twenty years to achieve.

Yeah.  I see the kids at work doing this.  First thing they all did after they graduated was buy a new car, although after cash-for-clunkers I'm not sure a good used car won't bankrupt someone just starting out.

And then I see parents paying their kids' way through life so they don't have to experience any discomfort...I got a cow-orker who pays his adult son's rent and insurance and sends spending money while the son looks for work that isn't "beneath him" and his liberal arts degree.  I mean, my folks have helped me out--gave me used furniture and housewares for my first apartment, co-signed a used-car loan when my car got totaled two days after I got laid off*, lent me money for an apartment deposit when I was dead broke and got offered a job in a different state--but it was always a one-time thing, to keep me afloat, but I was expected to keep swimming my ass off.


* Bank president said, and I quote, "I know you'll pay it back because your dad won't let you sit around and not get a job."  I paid the car off early. 

Posted by: HR at January 25, 2014 05:53 PM (hO8IJ)

141 LEAST experienced, damnit

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 05:53 PM (DmNpO)

142 Amen, Vashta.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:53 PM (VaPOJ)

143 everyone should read 'Down and Out in Paris and London' by George ( 1984 Orwell ).


He said that having only a tiny bit of money was worse than having no money at all.  This was in the 1930s, before the welfare state

Posted by: Harald the BallCrusher at January 25, 2014 05:53 PM (omBWL)

144 My BIL is a classically Liberal utopian that just happened upon a great career as a CFO in a large property mgmt. FIRM. He and my sister bought everything in sight, took the vacations, joined the CC and other clubs, lived the big life. I caught a rash of shit from him about a completely ordinary lifestyle of mine while I was doing well, but not like he was. He gave that shit to me until December 2008, when he lost his job, couldn't get another in RE. Still can't. I'm still standing. They now live with his parents after the Bankruptcy.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at January 25, 2014 05:53 PM (ojnk6)

145 Jets win in OT! Damn, they almost choked big time against the Leafs [sic].

Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 05:54 PM (fOFYL)

146 Real life news from Kiev

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HihXs_Q6Qx8

Posted by: NCwoof at January 25, 2014 05:54 PM (aUQgu)

147 >>>Posted by: Sven 10077 One thing at a time my friend. I guess what I'm most object to about this post is its classist tone. I have had the misfortune to have to go to a number of funerals recently. One of the deceased was a relatively wealthy man, and nobody wore a tie. One of the others was a hard working farmer, who didn't have three fucking nickels to rub together. Everybody wore a god damn time. You tell me who had class.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at January 25, 2014 05:54 PM (Smrwo)

148 Look at it this way: there is so much stuff that is now "necessities". Most of us pay for tv. We have electronic devices that continuously are obsolete. We don't have land line phones. We pay for cell phones. I have one customer at work that regularly updates me on his financial woes. I wish I could tell him to give up on the internet and drop back to dialup. But how would he be able to take those online classes that are supposed to get him back into a decent paying job?

Posted by: Notsothoreau at January 25, 2014 05:55 PM (Lqy/e)

149 110 Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 09:42 PM (Sptt

Heh, I'll be fine.

I am struggling to raise the boy with an appreciation of how to live lean if need be.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 05:55 PM (TE35l)

150 Flatbush Joe,
" Isn't part of the issue also that poor people tend to be dumber than non-poor people? And part of the problem of having a lower IQ is it's harder to understand and see the longer-term payoffs - leading to short term time preferences.

Smarter people can see further ahead in the game of life. They are able to perceive longer term opportunities and payoffs that are literally invisible to a dumber person.

I just have to ask:
WTF, O?

The wife and I both grew-up in poor families (me, 5 siblings in a "good catholic family"). My dad worked three jobs to put food on the table. One of those was with Tektronix, that made oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers, mostly for the government.
He was NOT stupid. The economy was what it was.
Because we grew-up poor, after we married, we stashed money like a Pika with green plants. We always saved, stashed, and invested, that someday, we might not be poor.
We never lived on credit, as we saw our peers do, buying the "latest thing", newest fad, etc.
We both went into IT, worked in tall buildings, drove Porsche's, but, never on credit.
Now, we are old and retired. We don't owe anyone anything. We have zero debt.
I would match my IQ against yours in a heartbeat...

Posted by: ChrisP at January 25, 2014 05:56 PM (fIDtZ)

151 Monty is like the opoosite of Larry Kudlow, who I just listened to. Kudlow is a wise and he's also a fool. Kudlow's big problem is his optimism. He knows what's going on but he's always bullish and always thinks the economy is in 'good shape' with even brighter days on the horizon. A polyanna, to say the least.

Posted by: soothsayer, with arms akimbo at January 25, 2014 05:56 PM (KfLgN)

152 I live my life by this credo: I don't try to be a great man. I just try to be a good one. Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 09:50 PM (G8OwX) As someone imbued with greatness, I find your words offensive and self-defeating.

Posted by: Barack Obama at January 25, 2014 05:56 PM (oFCZn)

153 I hate paying anyone to do anything for me. As I'm now at an age I can't do everything I used to do it still pains me to pay someone else. Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 09:48 PM (puNd6) I will have to be in a coma before I start paying people to do stuff that I can do now.

Posted by: CDR M at January 25, 2014 05:56 PM (LsJl8)

154 Being that I pay for those EBT benefits with my taxes, I wish I could spend that much on groceries, but I guess I can't, since I have to pay the bill for someone who can't be bothered to get a job.

$600/mo for a family of four in Indiana.  Unless three of them are teenage boys... 

And then I have to listen to conservative pundits call me "irresponsible" because I'm working that job to pay for EBT benefits instead of having kids I can't feed.  But that's a rant for another time.

Posted by: HR at January 25, 2014 05:57 PM (hO8IJ)

155

@107:  Thanks.

@112:  Those things are a lifesaver, and it's always important to try to fix things before giving up on them.  You might even learn a skill that'll help you at some point in the future.

Posted by: Cato at January 25, 2014 05:57 PM (i+Vw2)

156 (129) you upbring sound the same as mine. My dad was a first gen. Italian who became a asphalt paving contractor, with mom doing the books, sister and brother working on the road crews. Failure was never an option and we were never in serious debt.

Posted by: redenzo at January 25, 2014 05:57 PM (WCnJW)

157 Poor people work for money, wealthy people make money work for them.

Posted by: [/i] [/s] [/u] [/b] An Observation at January 25, 2014 05:57 PM (ylhEn)

158 Hey, everybody has something like this in their family, right??? Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 09:52 PM (Sptt Oh hell yea. Along with plenty like someone mentioned upthread, totally supporting their twenty and thirtysomething kids while those kids blow their money on iPhones, European vacations, etc.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 05:57 PM (VaPOJ)

159 I figure as long as I can sell nck into slavery somewhere I still have unlimited credit to spend like a Kardashian

Posted by: navycopjoe at January 25, 2014 05:58 PM (At8tV)

160 132 Krugman has argued that what we need now is inflation, to, you know, perk the economy up. An elitist like Krugtron doesn't even go near the supermarkets of the serfs so when a gallon of milk goes from $3.50 to $5.00 it affects him about the same as when the rest of us drop a penny behind the couch

Posted by: kbdabear at January 25, 2014 05:58 PM (aTXUx)

161 I remember as a teen pooling change with my Mom to see if we could go down the street to get a couple of cans of Pepsi

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at January 25, 2014 05:58 PM (e8kgV)

162 I had a big pot of money saved up and it has come in handy in my on again/ off again employment situation of the last three years.  I am now broke but I believe I am not poor.  I will, in the next year or so, get my business off the ground and build my future up once again.  Kind of sucks, but that is just where I am at the moment.  I am sure that I am not the only one that has it kind of bad right now.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at January 25, 2014 05:59 PM (jucos)

163 I remember as a teen pooling change with my Mom to see if we could go down the street to get a couple of cans of Pepsi

If I wanted to buy a can of soda or a candy bar, I had to ride my bike around looking for cans and bottles to return for the deposit. 

Took 8 cans to get a candy bar back then.  Takes 16-20 now.

Posted by: HR at January 25, 2014 06:00 PM (hO8IJ)

164 I like Kudlow, but obviously, he is hook, line and sinker in the great Ponzi.

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 06:00 PM (Sptt8)

165 That's exactly what I meant in my reply above about pride, etc. You see this also in very rural, hillbilly areas; they are afraid to even try and get a job outside the hills because they're ashamed and afraid to get laughed at. My parents and grandparents taught us to always hold our heads high and not worry about what anyone else thought about us. I have never, ever been ashamed of my upbringing, and in fact am very proud if it. *** When I grew up in tiny little Middleburg I don't ever remember being ashamed of being poor because my grandfather could build or fix anything and always stood on his own two feet, making certain that my grandmother, my sister, and I never went hungry. I now look back and realize how in fear he must have been of someday missing the mark and failing to provide, but he was a man, and he never whined a day in his life. He just did whatever was necessary, choosing pride of caring for his family over the prideful behavior that might have led him to hide and mope and do less than his best. We are both Blessed to have had such experiences.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 06:01 PM (DmNpO)

166 139 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 09:53 PM (DmNpO)

They're being pumped full of this hubris by the academy who whispers sweet lies in their ears to keep the 1-877-Free-Govt-money flowing into the school's coffers.

Whomever posted the Colin Ferguson bit on youth made me smile...

I watched his bit on alcoholism as well.

My initial judgement of his worth as a wit was erroneous I may have to peruse more of his material.

My son and I had a chat about the strengths and flaws of the 8 year old preacher they sampled for a bit in My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult's piece "Do you fear for your child?"

I explained to him that the child *was* an ordained preacher in I think ~1982 and was quite popular.  Then I asked him if he could be a complete Preacher.  My son said "no."

Why?

"experience" how can the child explain to his flock about marriage woes or the loss of a child?

Exactly...."experience" God bless these kids in some ways they are the most blessed in Lab exercise and fluidity and fluency of contemporary tech  professionals ever but you have to DO THE JOB under the threat of failure and bear the burdens of failures to have the wisdom to know what you can and can't do with your knowledge.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 06:01 PM (TE35l)

167 Responsibility and living within your means will allow you to live well eventually. Of course there are hard luck stories where a person did these things but fate just kicked them in the balls , but its the exception and not the rule.

Posted by: Roc Ingersol at January 25, 2014 06:02 PM (iReEb)

168

Yep, Monty - I've been there. That's exactly what it's like. I remember getting laid off in my 20's, finding another job in a couple of months, but then realizing with a sinking feeling that I wouldn't get my first paycheck until after my rent was due. I sold my beater car to a friend because I didn't want to ask my parents for help. I wanted to prove I could take care of myself. Since the jobs I had in my 20's didn't pay that well, that meant eating a lot of ramen noodles.

 

 I can't stand ramen noodles. Not only did I eat far too many bowls of "shrimp-flavored" 10 packs for a buck noodles (too bad Sriracha sauce wasn't around, or available in those days, it would have helped), but they're a reminder of tough times.

Posted by: Donna V. at January 25, 2014 06:04 PM (R3gO3)

169 150 Thank you Chris. I was struggling with how to respond to FBJ on this. I find this "they're just dumb" premise ridiculous. I'm sure many FBJ would consider stupid could rack him on the IQ scale.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at January 25, 2014 06:04 PM (ojnk6)

170 147 Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at January 25, 2014 09:54 PM (Smrwo)

I agree, I have known classy people with narry a dime and all one has to do to see the idle gauche is watch TMZ or C-Span sadly.

The greatness of the United States in on Main Street not Pennsylvania Avenue Herr...

the rebuilding will go from middle to coast not coast to middle.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 06:04 PM (TE35l)

171 I am sure that I am not the only one that has it kind of bad right now.

Preach it, brother.  The man, aka that bastard Bezos, is sucking the blood of the working man.

Posted by: Ezra Klein at January 25, 2014 06:06 PM (6TB1Z)

172 "Poor people work for money, wealthy people make money work for them."

I often point this out: wealth and money are not the same thing. It bears repeating. Money and wealth are correlated, but not as tightly as you might think. Ultimately, being wealthy means having a lot of options. Having a lot of choices.

Being poor, on the other hand, beings being constrained. Having few options. You don't travel much. I've known some poor folk who hadn't been out of their own neighborhoods in years. Not because they were prevented from going out and about, understand -- even a poor person can afford to travel once in awhile. No, it was just...ennui. The terrible sense of one place being pretty much like another, so why go anywhere?

It's hard to explain. The difference between "rich" and "poor" is much starker in the small things than in the big things. A rich man might have a big house with ten bathrooms, but the biggest difference to a poor man is that he doesn't have to wait to take a crap, or put up with a cold-water shower because the wife and kids used up all the hot. It wouldn't take money to make that poor man feel a little wealthier; all it would take is a bigger hot-water heater, or maybe a little half-bath where he could go read on the crapper without having someone beat on the door.

Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 06:07 PM (G8OwX)

173 Donna, I still love my hard-times food. Grew up on pinto beans, collard greens and fried taters and I swear to God, I could still eat 'em every day. Thor won't though, so I have to keep it to once a month, and even then he won't touch the collards. Damn California boy.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 06:09 PM (VaPOJ)

174 I guess I am way outa touch.  Poor now includes cable, a cellphone, wives, girlfriends, credit cards, and eating some kind of meat every day.



I guess I have different life experiences.  I didn't know that worrying about the bills, too much debt, and making bad decisions is all it takes to be poor.


Posted by: jc at January 25, 2014 06:09 PM (PlzOe)

175 Exactly...."experience" God bless these kids in some ways they are the most blessed in Lab exercise and fluidity and fluency of contemporary tech professionals ever but you have to DO THE JOB under the threat of failure and bear the burdens of failures to have the wisdom to know what you can and can't do with your knowledge. *** Failure?! Why they have no experience with failure. They've all been given participation trophies their entire lives. We are surely in for a world of hurt.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 06:10 PM (DmNpO)

176 Hey Tammy,


Long time.   {{{{{{{ Ginger Hugs }}}}}}}

Posted by: jc at January 25, 2014 06:11 PM (PlzOe)

177 ...while the son looks for work that isn't "beneath him" and his liberal arts degree...

There's thousands of people stocking shelves these days at Walmart with BA's, and a non-zero number with graduate degrees. 

That dude needs to lose some pride and suck it up.  Do a good job, show up, and in a few years you could be an assistant manager at a Walmart knocking down $50k/yr.

These days, a BA is about as useful as a high school diploma was 30 years ago -- i.e. it don't mean shit.

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/s] at January 25, 2014 06:11 PM (zxsxA)

178 138 Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 09:52 PM (fOFYL)

I suspect the decision was made in ~2002 to go full indoctrination lab with education.  The teachers were throwing quite the temper tantrum over the House flipping in 94 and the impeachment in 96.  Never forget Bush won the youngsters in 2000 what we are experiencing now is the Donkey party's temper tantrum during the war's 7-11 year olds putting their foot down and MAKING THE SCHOOL SMILE

If there were an opposition party in Washington DC there'd have already been hell to pay over the bias....

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 06:11 PM (TE35l)

179 Donna, I still love my hard-times food. Grew up on pinto beans, collard greens and fried taters and I swear to God, I could still eat 'em every day. Thor won't though, so I have to keep it to once a month, and even then he won't touch the collards. Damn California boy. *** A woman after my own heart! I love fried potato sandwiches with cheese and mayo. And, when I was a kid, my grandmother use to make an oniony, peppery soup for me when I was sick. I loved it and requested it often. I was in my 40's before I knew it was called "gruel".

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 06:13 PM (DmNpO)

180 Some of the most generous, open-handed people I've met in life are folks just barely getting by. Just throwing out a random thought.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 06:15 PM (P6QsQ)

181 Tammy - pinto beans, collard greens and fried taters are great if cooked the right way. I also ate an awful lot of baked potatoes - those I never got sick of!

Posted by: Donna V. at January 25, 2014 06:15 PM (R3gO3)

182

Took 8 cans to get a candy bar back then. Takes 16-20 now.

 

When I was a kid (mom already left, can't blame her) my old man always went to cattle auctions. If I wanted something to eat or drink, I had to  pick up soda bottles and return them, 2 cents per botttle.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 06:15 PM (puNd6)

183 Reading this thread is making me so proud of my husband. He is a really bright guy, raised dirt poor. Got absolutely NO financial support from his family other than being fed regularly. He left home as soon as he was able and went to work in the oilfield. I knew when I met him that he would do well because he is a workhorse. We have been successful far beyond what we ever dreamed. Part of that was staying married. We saved and budgeted and worked our asses off. It is a powerful thing when two people to pull together in the same direction with the same priorities. We *could* do the country club livin' large thing, but that is NOT what you do when you are working for independence and stability.

Posted by: Painted She-Whore of Gomorrah at January 25, 2014 06:15 PM (zvxqj)

184 Posted by: Monty at January 25, 2014 10:07 PM (G8OwX) This is a post in itself. I clearly remember when we moved into a house with indoor plumbing and electricity. No more hauling water in heavy buckets. I never really minded the outhouse, but I was in God's Own Heaven when they got a washer and dryer. And just last year, Thor and I got a new fridge just so we could put the old one in the garage. SO luxurious to me. A fridge just for beverages and extra ice. I felt like a fucking Queen, I really did.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 06:15 PM (VaPOJ)

185 I need to find a job and get on a large group insurance plan before my excellent individual plan with Anthem is canceled in four months. The position two levels below my old job now requires an MBA and three years like experience. Crappity.

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 06:15 PM (Sptt8)

186 Being how I used to live in the DC Metro area, when I read "hard times" I think of yummy chili. ;-)

Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 06:16 PM (fOFYL)

187 I do not miss fried bologna sandwiches. Not even with mayo and ketchup.

Posted by: Justamom at January 25, 2014 06:17 PM (Sptt8)

188 178 138 Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 09:52 PM (fOFYL) I suspect the decision was made in ~2002 to go full indoctrination lab with education. The teachers were throwing quite the temper tantrum over the House flipping in 94 and the impeachment in 96. Never forget Bush won the youngsters in 2000 what we are experiencing now is the Donkey party's temper tantrum during the war's 7-11 year olds putting their foot down and MAKING THE SCHOOL SMILE If there were an opposition party in Washington DC there'd have already been hell to pay over the bias.... Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 10:11 PM (TE35l) --So you're saying it's more Gen Y's fault?

Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 06:17 PM (fOFYL)

189 When I was a kid (mom already left, can't blame her) my old man always went to cattle auctions. If I wanted something to eat or drink, I had to pick up soda bottles and return them, 2 cents per botttle.

Posted by: Ronster at January 25, 2014 10:15 PM (puNd6)


You might have to explain returning soda bottles to some of the younger morons here. I used to do that to buy popsicles from the little grocery store down the street.

Posted by: Retread at January 25, 2014 06:18 PM (cHwk5)

190 A  few people jokingly asked me when I was going to spend all the money I have saved up    over the years, and are shocked when I say "never".

I intend to spend my retirement years   using only the dividends    and interest on my savings      to supplement my pension, then give the money to my children, who will only read about pensions in history books.   They are definitely in the first generation who will not live as well as their parents.

One doesn't need to be rich to be wealthy, it just requires more planning    ahead.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 25, 2014 06:19 PM (/i3Yt)

191 I had the terrible sight of watching my 18 month old daughter eating a mustard "sandwich" (1 slice folded over with the mustard) while I was going to ET school in Great Lakes in '73. That was the only thing left in the refrigerator or anywhere in the apartment.  To this day, it makes me want to cry.
 

Posted by: Paul K at January 25, 2014 06:19 PM (en4If)

192 We saved and budgeted and worked our asses off. It is a powerful thing when two people to pull together in the same direction with the same priorities. *** It's not a coincidence that so many successful couples look back at their poorest times as some of their happiest. It bonds you together or it tears you apart. Those who survive it do so because of love and the commitment to make the life of the one they love better.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 06:19 PM (DmNpO)

193 ---'credit' is a scam. its a lifted system from the old mafia. my family and myself have NEVER used credit and live better than most on our every day earnings.

...and we have the top material things most 'rich' people own. with ZERO debt.

in other words...youre an idiot.

Posted by: southern by the grace of I-95 at January 25, 2014 09:42 PM (DnIpv)


Nothing wrong with having credit cards if you use them intelligently. I pay mine off in full every month. If I run up a fair balance on it, often I will prepay that balance, rather than wait for the monthly billing date. And there was a time when I was poor, badly underemployed, and I maxed out the credit card, and was in a bad way for a while, but a better job came along, and I got it sorted out. The answer is self-discipline, and sadly, that's one thing that is scarce in the young.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at January 25, 2014 06:20 PM (pFqpP)

194 I had the terrible sight of watching my 18 month old daughter eating a mustard "sandwich" (1 slice folded over with the mustard) while I was going to ET school in Great Lakes in '73. That was the only thing left in the refrigerator or anywhere in the apartment. To this day, it makes me want to cry. *** And now I want to cry too.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 06:20 PM (DmNpO)

195 Some of the most generous, open-handed people I've met in life are folks just barely getting by. Just throwing out a random thought. Posted by: grammie winger at January 25, 2014 10:15 PM (P6QsQ) THIS! When I lived in Cali, it was always the little old Mexican abuelitas with holes in their shoes who gave money to the homeless. My Great Aunt Sophronia, who is damn near a hundred and refuses to get electricity or indoor plumbing, lives on less than 300 dollars a month she gets from her late husbands WWII pension, gives 100 a month to her church. (She won't go on Medicaid because that's for poor people, don'tcha know)

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 06:21 PM (VaPOJ)

196 ont up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 25, 2014 06:21 PM (DmNpO)

197 188 Posted by: logprof at January 25, 2014 10:17 PM (fOFYL)

The tail of the boomers are the teachers who shat out these kids and set the curriculum.

The start of the Xers are the ones who largely focused on things other than the long march agenda..

the tail of the Xers and the Y babies are the ones who are Julia...

It's nobody's "fault" and it is everyone's fault...

I should have kept pushing the bastards in the GOP when I saw the bias to confront it HARD.

It is not supposed to be this way, our taxes are not supposed to be used for partisan warfare starting in head start for God's sakes and carried into every echelon of the entire civil service.

Yet here we sit.

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 06:23 PM (TE35l)

198 I was laid off in 2001 and just last year reached the salary I was making then. Pushed my goal for an early retirement back a few years. That and my fall back retirement plan of winning the lottery is harder than I thought.

Posted by: Roc Ingersol at January 25, 2014 06:23 PM (pyh5u)

199 I push Ramsey on people, too. It's not so much his formula is unique (and he'll say as much) it's about focus and intensity-- changing the one's psychology towards money. When I started, we owed just over $131,000 on an income of 36K three and a half years ago I have 47k left to go ("student" loans).

Posted by: David W. at January 25, 2014 06:24 PM (L+0Wu)

200 Posted by: Paul K at January 25, 2014 10:19 PM (en4If) Ah, but you had that to give her. And I'm guessing you had less than she did.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at January 25, 2014 06:26 PM (VaPOJ)

201 This thread should be mandatory reading for anyone under 20 years of age. It may not be too late to save them.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 25, 2014 06:26 PM (aDwsi)

202 Monty, thank you. Sven, keep plugging. We can make a difference in those we touch. It will not be easy. Random thoughts: For too many people there is a religion of government. All their dogmas cripples a populous and their country. It's like the Age or Reason is gone, and we are staring at possible wars of religion. The shackles are in the mind. Escaped North Koreans struggle to adjust in South Korea. Plus there are plenty of East Germans who are doing better now, but want the old ways back. The indoctrination going on in schools and the culture is that there should be no private property. Funny how they feel that way about other peoples money, but never their own grades. Income equality's end state is Zimbabwe or North Korea. We are looking at a seriously underperforming society in the US under the Left. Pain is instructive only if you want to learn.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at January 25, 2014 06:27 PM (u82oZ)

203 I've noticed the profusion of payday loan/car title loan ads on local tv. I think these companies prey on desperate or not overly bright folks by making it seem (in the ads) that cash is easy to acquire....none of them mention paying back the loan....setting them up to dig an ever deeper hole.

Posted by: BignJames at January 25, 2014 06:28 PM (j7iSn)

204 201 I've already sent a link to this thread to my 17 yo daughter who is about to graduate and go to Alabama ( on a full academic ride, puffs chest). The CC folks prey on the colleges, and we've talked about it a lot but want her to read this to let it really sink in. Thanks all.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at January 25, 2014 06:30 PM (ojnk6)

205 Obama has ruined the future for a whole generation. Don't worry. There are lots of Democrats waiting in line to fuk up the chances for future generations. Tell me...how is it Al Gore is espousing something that will impoverish the whole country and he's getting Oscars and rich off of it?

Posted by: dirks strewn at January 25, 2014 06:31 PM (77F0w)

206

Like someone said earlier, being poor in America is not like being poor in other countries or in other eras. I remember P.J. O'Rourke writing about people in Manila who live in a goddamn garbage heap. Their days are spent picking through garbage. And he said they were cheerful and treated him with kindness although they really didn't get why a white guy from America was visiting them.

 

In Victorian London, there were a million ugly ways to get by. Domestic servants were often treated horribly, but they were better off than the factory workers, and lived like kings compared to, say, "nightsoil men" - the guys who made a living hauling shit out of the cesspools, and who sometimes died when they were overcome with the fumes and passed out - right into the shit.

 

But I also agree that in 21st century America, things that seem like luxuries, because they go beyond basic food and shelter, really aren't anymore. A dozen years ago, I was a bit judgemental when I saw obviously poor people at the bus stop talking on cell phones. "Jesus, they don't have a car, but they need a cell phone to tell someone they're about to catch the No. 13 bus. Use a damn pay phone." Well, there aren't any pay phones anymore - you need a cell.

Posted by: Donna V. at January 25, 2014 06:36 PM (R3gO3)

207 I don't begrudge the poor their government assistance.  I hate the systems we have in place which nearly guarantee that their government assistance is the best they'll ever aspire to.   We need HVAC techs, welders, pipefitters, steamfitters, carpenters, bricklayers, security guards, police, military men and women, etc., but are given only dropouts damaged by their experience with The System, or high school graduates with no useful skills.  The crime here is that one side of the aisle thinks the status quo is working, even if the people living in The System our government has created never will.

Posted by: StPatrick_TN at January 25, 2014 06:48 PM (un8zR)

208 MissTammy is here? I was going to say MISSFUCKINGTAMMY! but that seemed inappropriate.

Posted by: yankeefifth at January 25, 2014 06:52 PM (rDidD)

209 Great post as always, Monty. I guess everyone has migrated to the ONT by now, but I'm just getting here. I've never been poor. I came from a middle class family, and while my bank balance approached zero a couple of times when I was between jobs when I was in my twenties, I was still living with my parents at the time so I never had to worry about going hungry. I was also paying off student loans at the time, which were laughably small by today's standards. But that experience left me permanently allergic to debt, and I avoid it like the plague.

Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 07:14 PM (sdi6R)

210 209 Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 11:14 PM (sdi6R)

Good, I paid mine off early.

There's no innate glory or shame in where you start it is where you are going and get to Rickl...

night-o

Posted by: Sven 10077 at January 25, 2014 07:22 PM (TE35l)

211 Night, Sven.

Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 07:24 PM (sdi6R)

212 Monty is brilliant. Someday, ace will have all of his posts on the right side of the blog. 

Someday.

Posted by: Null at January 25, 2014 07:32 PM (xjpRj)

213 The thing that's really poisonous about welfare is that people come to expect it as a right. With voluntary charity, recipients will tend to be grateful for what they have received due to the kindness and generosity of others. Not always, but most of the time. But with guaranteed government support, like welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, and on and on, poor people have been taught to believe that they deserve a decent standard of living without expending any effort whatsoever. This has never been the case in any society in human history. In every other era, they would be eating out of trash cans and sleeping in ditches. When it all comes crashing down, they will be enraged. Heaven help anyone who is in their line of sight.

Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 07:35 PM (sdi6R)

214 The rules made by the feds that the poor have to deal with are obscene and designed to keep them from even trying to fight their way out. For instance, I'm sure most of you heard this week about Medicaid seizing your assets when you die. Not that they can assemble a portfolio. On SSI, for example, a single person cannot have assets of more than 2k. These kinds of artificial rules, more than anything, I believe, engenders the "Why bother" mindset Monty speaks about. But I could be wrong. My .02

Posted by: Big Ol Fat Guy at January 25, 2014 07:44 PM (BpQmM)

215 This short little mantra is the basis of my financial life : Give Save Live on the rest. I repeat this in my sleep. My Father put that as: Pay your dues, then pay yourself, then pay your bills.

Posted by: toby928© at January 25, 2014 07:54 PM (QupBk)

216 214 The rules made by the feds that the poor have to deal with are obscene and designed to keep them from even trying to fight their way out. For instance, I'm sure most of you heard this week about Medicaid seizing your assets when you die. Not that they can assemble a portfolio. On SSI, for example, a single person cannot have assets of more than 2k. These kinds of artificial rules, more than anything, I believe, engenders the "Why bother" mindset Monty speaks about. But I could be wrong. My .02

Posted by: Big Ol Fat Guy at January 25, 2014 11:44 PM (BpQmM)



====

most private people define helping someone in a manner that includes finishing the job -- that is, you help someone until they don't need any more help.



government defines helping someone as signing up another client so they can keep their bureaucracy job and get those cushy retirement benefits.  They could not care less if the person actually gets help, and they sure as hell don't want them to move beyond needing help.

Posted by: jc at January 25, 2014 07:57 PM (PlzOe)

217 213 But with guaranteed government support, like welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, and on and on, poor people have been taught to believe that they deserve a decent standard of living without expending any effort whatsoever. . Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 11:35 PM (sdi6R) To expand on that, "decent standard of living" means cell phones, big screen TVs, cars, refrigerators, air conditioning, and fresh produce, meat, and lobster at the supermarket. Even kings and emperors didn't have those things 200 years ago. This will not end well.

Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 07:58 PM (sdi6R)

218 I forgot to mention flush toilets. That's another thing that today's poor in America consider a birthright that even kings and emperors didn't have 200 years ago.

Posted by: rickl at January 25, 2014 08:01 PM (sdi6R)

219 Its not that simple, actually, Monty. Some people are poor because they have awful health and cannot do any more than they do right now, planning or not. Some people are poor because they were very careful and planned and were wise with their funds and something went horribly wrong (embezzlement, massive catastrophe, etc). Sometimes people are poor through no fault of their own.
The big thing to get past in everyone's mindset is the idea that being poor is somehow bad or a sign you have done wrong, like an economic sin. There's nothing innately bad or wrong about being poor, its just a state of having less money than others.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at January 25, 2014 08:08 PM (zfY+H)

220 Back in the day, we did not have cell phones nor cable however, I did spend some months, weeks at least on p-nut butter and jelly (fake jelly at that). Heh, I remember it well. Glad it's no more.

Posted by: Andy at January 25, 2014 08:35 PM (XZpOb)

221 #122

Frequently, when a job listing has absurdly specific skills listed, it means they already know who they're going to hire but are required by law to list the job publicly.

Posted by: Epobirs at January 25, 2014 10:58 PM (bPxS6)

222 161 I remember as a teen pooling change with my Mom to see if we could go down the street to get a couple of cans of Pepsi

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at January 25, 2014 09:58 PM (e8kgV)


***************************************


How about going through the couch to find change to go buy a loaf of bread so that you can have bread and gravy?

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at January 25, 2014 11:57 PM (HubSo)

223 My best friend, who apparently has issues, said to me, "You were a poor kid, who married well." She believed my spouse's parents had financed every aspect of our lives. An insult it was, to be sure and after 26 years of friendship, to boot. It appears she was not happy in her accomplishments or what she felt were my failures. Her mind never changed, even if her life was what I viewed as quite successful.
I married a person who had dreams and aspirations. We studied hard, and his parents were a great mental support system. Those are the things that helped us become successful so that at age 28, 30, we could afford to buy a house. We lived paycheck to paycheck, but we were doing it all on our own. We have been at the "top" and nose-dived to the bottom and are now breathing easier again, even with two in college.
It is about the mindset, pure and simple.

Posted by: DefendUSA at January 26, 2014 03:32 AM (nAHMK)

224 Never go into debt. Pay cash for everything. That was my dad's motto, probably learned during the Depression. It served him well and he died with...more money than I'll admit to here. When he finally managed to accumulate money, he invested it and did very well.

When I married, my husband went the debt route and it was very stressful. Fortunately his career had much more income potential than my dad's and my dad's wisdom finally got through to him after many years. I'll say it again with Monty--never go into debt. Pay cash for everything.

Posted by: Avogadra at January 26, 2014 04:15 AM (Pg8qi)

225 "credit' is a scam. its a lifted system from the old mafia. my family and myself have NEVER used credit and live better than most on our every day earnings." Only long term credit I have ever taken has been a home loan, 15 years paid off in 13 years. Everything else has been cash or at worst on a credit card (for convenience) paid off in 2 weeks. I have not paid credit card interest in decades, not once have I missed making sure payment in full was done in time. I have been blessed with the ability to fix anything and think ahead. I fix my own cars, furnace, plumbing, electrical, etc. Just two years ago I built my own steel building with no prior experience. If one man can do it than so can I has always been my motto. Do research and move forward. At work I see people who make bad decisions every day they add up. They make $10 an hour but have a $600 phone (which if dropped breaks), buy take out for lunch and are holding a $3 coffee twice a day. I have a 8 year old "flip phone" that has been drowned, dropped, tossed, folded, spindled and mutilated and laughs at you, bring my own lunch and make my own coffee for $3 for the whole week. Guess who runs the maintenance, housekeeping and laundry departments and is well paid for it? I do. Because I think ahead, organized, adaptable when poop hits the fan and keep an eye on expenses. Never be afraid to learn new skills, live simply and put some cash away for a rainy day.

Posted by: gdonovan at January 26, 2014 06:12 AM (1Z52S)

226 P.S. Grew up dirt poor with 5 brothers and sisters. Mom on food stamps, hand me down clothes, $3 sneakers and eating the same crap food day after day. Till this day can't stand mac and cheese, rice a roni or puffed rice cereal. Mom meet a good man who worked hard 3rd shift but still made time for me and life got better. Early life taught me some hard lessons, I hope I can pass them onto my kids so they don't fall into the trap. Modern life is way to easy I suspect.

Posted by: gdonovan at January 26, 2014 06:18 AM (1Z52S)

227 Thanks for the trip down memory lane.  My siblings and I are first generation and grew up in a household that struggled.  But to my parents' credit - we didn't know it.  At 20, I was financially "on my own" - with a kid brother in tow.  I will NEVER forget days where I had nor more than $1 in my pocket for the entire day.  My brother and I would do almost any job offered if it meant an extra $20 in the coffers.

The bride grew up in coal country.  She really knew "poor".  I never forget the struggles, and neither does she.  The fear of being poor again has shaped most of my adult life, and is a great motivator.

 


Posted by: David Duke at January 26, 2014 06:28 AM (LgAeO)

228 Its good to say never go in debt, but when your car craps out, or your kid breaks an arm, or some other catastrophe happens, you might not have any choice.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at January 26, 2014 07:01 AM (zfY+H)

229 Catastrophes are bound to happen. The "no debt" approach means you anticipate that they will occur. You buy insurance for the big ones and save money ahead of time to cover the smaller ones. Even if it means that you are living on a pittance, which we did as kids. But thanks to mom and dad's optimistic view of life, we never knew it at the time.

Posted by: Avogadra at January 26, 2014 08:54 AM (Pg8qi)

230

The difference between the rich and poor is simple. Life for the poor is a walk through a minefield. Life for the rich is a walk on the beach. The guy walking through the minefield has to be careful of his every step. The guy walking on the beach can step anywhere he pleases. If the guy walking through the minefield makes a wrong step, disaster will occur. The guy walking on the beach can't actually make, what normal people would consider,  a wrong step. The guy in the minefield appreciates every step that doesn't result in disaster and looks forward to the day he makes it through. The guy on the beach appreciates nothing and is probably getting bored of all that sand and water.

 

One acts out of necessity, the other out of petty desires. One appreciates the simple things in life, the other demands the extravagant. One is content with having survived another day, the other is never content no matter what. One is content to make ends meet, the other can never possess enough money to make them happy.

 

 

Posted by: Old Farmer at January 26, 2014 09:19 AM (KEy1O)

231 Yes, some people splurge on stupid shit like vacations and electronics and clothes and cable TV You don't need cable TV if you are that poor. PERIOD.

Posted by: Nip Sip at January 26, 2014 09:47 AM (0FSuD)

232 Hey monty, very accurate depiction of "being poor" and the mindset is correct also.  But, know many "rich" who are also maxed out on 6 or 7 credit cards and in the same spot as your poor guy living above his means.  The only difference is the fact that the paycheck is larger and there may be a little savings.

Heard the other night on a program that you only need to be making a hundred grand to be part of the 1%.  I was astonished, how can that be possible?  In some American cities you are the working poor on a hundred grand.

Posted by: think at January 26, 2014 10:03 AM (OroYa)

233 Probably no one else will come this late, been a busy weekend and just got to this post. Very well put Monty. I started a Dave Ramsey University at our church, mostly so my wife and I could take the class. Even though the church offered the price of the course to anyone who could not afford, 90% of the attendees were folks who made > 50K per year but did not handle finances well, or who like us had gotten under medical bills or other oops. The lower income folks did not take the course. Truth in idea that planning for the future not high on the list. My daughter goes to HS next year and one of the electives they offer is on personal finance. They essentially offer teens Dave's course without calling it that. I think it should be mandatory not elective. As Dave says there is a difference between poor and broke. Nearly every college grad is broke. They may have a fall back where they won't starve due to their folks, but they are broke. It is called being in your 20s. Anyway, great post.

Posted by: RKinRoanoke at January 26, 2014 12:05 PM (b0n8A)

234 It is called being in your 20s.
Anyway, great post.

Posted by: RKinRoanoke at January 26, 2014 04:05 PM (b0n8A)

They aren't broke by choice though.  They were sold a bill of goods.  "Don't worry, take these loans, when you get out they'll be a job waiting for you and you'll make a minimum of 50 grand, but most will make 80 grand".  You'd take the chance too, gamble a couple of hundred grand to make 80 grand a year, pay back the loans fast and then be on easy street.  It's not happening.  The loans aren't really low interest, most have over 6 percent interest and the government took it over.  But, have noticed that universities are starting to sue alumni who aren't paying the loans back.  Don't know how the system works, if the government took over the loans then why are the universities suing alumni?

Back in the 70's, early 80's, the medical folks got away with not paying their loans back and they thought it was pretty funny.  The lawyers everyone likes to hate, paid theirs back expediently.  The doctors figured no one would go after them and no one did.  Now they are in their 50's and 60's racking in the cash giving sermons to their kids about money.  How come they got away with it, had banks throwing money at them to open a practice and yet today's recent grads are being sued?

Posted by: think at January 26, 2014 03:19 PM (OroYa)

235 @216 - "I'm sure most of you heard this week about Medicaid seizing your assets when you die. Not that they can assemble a portfolio. On SSI, for example, a single person cannot have assets of more than 2k." Good thing shoeboxes were invented.

Posted by: Moron Labe! at January 26, 2014 05:10 PM (3Uy4y)

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