Ace of Spades HQ

February 26, 2014

Rand Paul: Don't Rub Putin's Nose in Ukraine Failure
— Ace

Eh, sound enough advice, as a general matter, but people will disagree sharply on what constitutes "tweaking" or "rubbing a face-culture leader's nose" in a failure.

Foreign policy is always discussed in these broad principles that barely anyone disagrees with.

On one hand: "We must not be the world's policeman." Applause applause.

On the other hand: "We must take a leadership role on peace and freedom and human dignity, and we must intervene by military force when it is in America's strong national interests to do so." Applause applause.

Mostly everyone agrees with these two propositions, and yet will disagree sharply how either or both apply to a particular set of facts.

Paul's statement -- to not overly rouse the ire of the Russian bear, which, being a frankly more primitive political culture, will meet humiliation with military force and slaughter -- is wise enough. Diplomatic.

On the other hand, there is the Reaganite core principle that we must not shy away from calling evil "evil." Even if we don't intervene militarily (and despite the absurd characterization of Reagan as some kind of warmonger, his military interventions were rare and brief), it's important to at least speak up for freedom and human rights.

You really can only glean a sense of where a politician falls on this spectrum. Rand Paul, by saying this, puts himself on the dove-ish side of things, not only opposed to military action as a general matter, but also more willing to mute criticism (or express it diplomatically) of global bad actors.

John McCain, meanwhile, is much more confrontational.

Of course we already knew all that.

In the case of Ukraine, I have no idea which policy will "work." My idea of "working" is that the Ukraine is ultimately set free, even if Russia does work to grab back the Crimea.

I don't want to set it up as a "failure" for Putin if he fails to hold all of Ukraine, because I know what a face-culture leader will do if he sees the world calling him a failure. He'll resort to the primitive assertion of strength -- enslaving a people to show just how tough he is.

I do think it's important to establish a face-saving path for Putin, because, at the end of the day, I think it's more important that Ukraine be liberated (or at least, most of it) than that we deliver an immediate humiliation to Putin.

Meanwhile, documents show just how far the Ukrainian government was willing to go to crush the Maidan opposition.

This blog links a Financial Times article, which it says discloses these facts, but the FT is behind a paywall.

The Yanukovich regime had drawn up plans for a massive crackdown on protesters in Kiev using thousands of police and troops Â– and the chief of Ukraine's armed forces on Thursday last week ordered 2,500 army troops into the capital for an "antiterrorist" operation. . . .
The documents, which a senior official confirmed were genuine to the Financial Times late on Tuesday, were among large numbers of government papers beginning to emerge in the wake of president Viktor Yanukovich's dramatic ousting on Saturday. . . .
But the most chilling were military and security papers. One set revealed that snipers who killed dozens of protesters on Kiev's central square last Thursday came from Ukraine's "Omega" special forces.

...
A cable signed by Yuri Ilyin, chief of staff, on Thursday last week ordered three army units from southern and southeastern Ukraine to move into Kiev...

The pretext for the use of the army to kill protesters was alleged "intelligence" suggesting that the protesters were really (wait for it...!) "terrorists."

What? Flatbush Joe quotes this tweet:

The Interpreter ‏@Interpreter_Mag
Ukraine Liveblog: Russian govt-linked news channel LifeNews is reporting Yanukovych is in Russia. http://bit.ly/1pty04r

Posted by: Ace at 08:28 AM | Comments (277)
Post contains 653 words, total size 4 kb.

1 Firsty?

Posted by: Hobbitopoly at February 26, 2014 08:30 AM (fk1A8)

2 Sincerely with all due respect, but McCain is tiresome.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at February 26, 2014 08:30 AM (BZAd3)

First?

McCain is a senile old shitstain who needs to be:

a) kicked out of the GOP;

b) locked up in a nursing home;

c) one of those bad nursing homes on 60 Minutes.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at February 26, 2014 08:30 AM (zF6Iw)

4 2ndy?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 56% more DOOM! at February 26, 2014 08:30 AM (09o/X)

5 The Interpreter ‏@Interpreter_Mag Ukraine Liveblog: Russian govt-linked news channel LifeNews is reporting Yanukovych is in Russia. http://bit.ly/1pty04r

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 08:31 AM (ZPrif)

6 Here is what we do in smart diplomacy...

I'm going to call Putin a pussy. Then I'm going to say if he doesn't back down I'll kick his ass and he knows it.

Then...I'm going to go play golf and turn off my phone.

It is good to be the king.

Posted by: Barack Obama at February 26, 2014 08:32 AM (P3U0f)

7 If I were the Ukraine, I'd be looking over at Georgia right now wondering if Putin is planning a similar show.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at February 26, 2014 08:32 AM (hq5sb)

8 John McCain, meanwhile, is much more confrontational. Don't have to tell us.

Posted by: Conservatives at February 26, 2014 08:33 AM (FcR7P)

9 I do think it's important to establish a face-saving path for Putin, because, at the end of the day, I think it's more important that Ukraine be liberated (or at least, most of it) than that we deliver an immediate humiliation to Putin. Ace, how do we do both?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 08:33 AM (CRyse)

10 Â“Politics has become so toxic,Â” he [Obama] complained, giving his volunteers something to oppose.

His policies, he said, are being blocked by Â“an implacable opposition that has spent hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars, spreading misinformation.Â”

... excuse me, who needs misinformation when reality is so revealing

Posted by: Valerie Jarrett at February 26, 2014 08:33 AM (e8kgV)

11 John mcCain is probably already hashing out ground invasion plans of Ukraine

Posted by: brak at February 26, 2014 08:33 AM (iEoiA)

12 And that my friends is why I am calling for a bipartisan authorization of force to invade Mordor. I've seen the news reports recently, and the America I know will not stand by and do nothing while a tyrant runs unchecked.

Posted by: John McCain on seeing a recent Peter Jackson movie... at February 26, 2014 08:34 AM (P3U0f)

13 I think it's premature to call Ukraine a "Putin failure." He probably just vies it as a temporary set-back.

Posted by: Votermom at February 26, 2014 08:34 AM (GSIDW)

14 Clearly any policy that is all talk and no action is pointless. Therefore, Obama should stay out of this altogether, given his distinguished history of intervention and red lines. Any bravado from Obama would be laughed at by Putin (and everyone else), followed by some nose tweaking in the other direction.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 26, 2014 08:34 AM (qZr+9)

15 Yeah, I don't think I'd rub Putin's nose in anything. No telling what he might do to prove he's got the big boy panties on.

Posted by: Hobbitopoly at February 26, 2014 08:34 AM (fk1A8)

16 Should I be interested in this?

Hey, watch this putt.

Posted by: Brako 'Bama, Preznadint 4 life at February 26, 2014 08:34 AM (NHZpR)

17 I think we should declare war on constipation because it really, really sucks.

Posted by: John McCain at February 26, 2014 08:35 AM (oFCZn)

18 >>>Ace, how do we do both? i dunno. I suppose Obama could deliver a speech in which he makes the case that "strength" is not determined by how many you can enslave, but how many you set free, and how naked use of political/coercive power is not a sign of strength, but of weakness. Of course, he's not in a good position to make this case, because he certainly seems to employ such tactics in his own country.

Posted by: Bane at February 26, 2014 08:35 AM (/FnUH)

19 John mcCain is probably already hashing out ground invasion plans of Ukraine

Posted by: brak at February 26, 2014 12:33 PM (iEoiA)

-----

With what???

Muhahahahahahaha

Posted by: Chucki Hagel with a budget slashing machete' at February 26, 2014 08:35 AM (nELVU)

20 Politics has become so toxic,Â” he [Obama] complained, giving his volunteers something to oppose.
***
Yeah, like when a politician gets his opponent's divorce records unsealed, or has government bureaucrats release confidential information for asking awkward questions, or when you call someone a racist for disagreeing with you...

Posted by: 18-1 at February 26, 2014 08:36 AM (P3U0f)

21 No tweaking.

Also, avoid twerking.

Posted by: more sound advice at February 26, 2014 08:37 AM (t8ySh)

22 I am surprised that apparently the order was given to disperse the protestors and either not carried out or couldn't be carried out. Surprised that the president fled, surprised that apparently Putin doesn't really care which side administers Ukraine, which if true, seemingly Putin can make a deal with either side.

Posted by: Jean Harrisun at February 26, 2014 08:37 AM (Ss6oy)

23 My friendsh, the entire situation in the Ukraine can, of course, be traced back to those Tea Party wackos and Ted Cruz.

Posted by: John McCain [/i] [/b] at February 26, 2014 08:38 AM (5ikDv)

24 I suppose Obama could deliver a speech... This is always the answer. "Hostilities Cease As Ukraine and Russia Swoon"

Posted by: t-bird at February 26, 2014 08:38 AM (FcR7P)

25 Posted by: Bane at February 26, 2014 12:35 PM (/FnUH) Yeah I read that in your bane voice. For a while I did a decent joker impression. I even got a few of the mannerisms down as a preparation for a Halloween costume. Then I got really lazy when I considered the makeup process.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at February 26, 2014 08:38 AM (hq5sb)

26 I agree with those two core principles. We must call evil evil. But military intervention should only occur when we have clear and present danger that the US is threatened.

The trouble is we have too many people like McShitstain and Linseedoil Graham who want us to get into every country on earth at the same time we are cutting the military to the marrow.

And then the Democrats turn traitor after we get in.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 26, 2014 08:38 AM (T2V/1)

27 Putin doesn't really care which side administers Ukraine, which if true, seemingly Putin can make a deal with either side. -- Ukraine : broke EU: near-broke Russia: has cash & gas

Posted by: Votermom at February 26, 2014 08:38 AM (GSIDW)

22: "seemingly Putin can make a deal with either side."

The power over a nation's energy is a mighty club.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) Est. 1836 at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (OJn3e)

29 I'm firmly behind a War on Painful Swelling.

Posted by: John McCain at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (oFCZn)

30 So...one possible solution to this is to push self determination in the Ukraine at a state or regional level.

Let Ukrainians vote and form a western and eastern Ukraine (perhaps call the latter Tartaristan?)

Of course Barky and the transnational progressives in the US might regret setting such a precedent...

Posted by: 18-1 at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (P3U0f)

31 I personally know somebody who rebuilt their house twice, for free from the govt, after hurricanes. But, thanks to insanely cheap federal insurance, they can continue their god-given right to live in a high-risk hurricane zone. At taxpayer expense! DRUDGE REPORT ‏@DRUDGE_REPORT WSJ: GOP caves on taxpayer-funded flood insurance... http://drudge.tw/1jAvENM

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (ZPrif)

32 22 I am surprised that apparently the order was given to disperse the protestors and either not carried out or couldn't be carried out. Surprised that the president fled, surprised that apparently Putin doesn't really care which side administers Ukraine, which if true, seemingly Putin can make a deal with either side.

Posted by: Jean Harrisun at February 26, 2014 12:37 PM (Ss6oy)

Or he knows that his troops will be crawling all over it within a few weeks.

Posted by: joncelli at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (RD7QR)

33 Ace, how do we do both? Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 12:33 PM (CRyse) Oh, he's already lost and humiliated. We just don't have to overdo our endzone dance.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 56% more DOOM! at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (09o/X)

This country needs to have a long and serious conversation with itself about what role it wants to play in the coming years.

Russia is not our "enemy." We don't have to do anything to, for, or about them, unless it's in our interest to do so.

What's our interest here?

Don't tell me DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM because I will kick you in the nutz.

Posted by: BurtTC at February 26, 2014 08:39 AM (TOk1P)

35 Of course, he's not in a good position to make this case, because he certainly seems to employ such tactics in his own country.
___
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Posted by: Preznit Big Brother at February 26, 2014 08:40 AM (P3U0f)

36 >>>Oh, he's already lost and humiliated. We just don't have to overdo our endzone dance. I dunno-- he's had a setback. He can send in the Russian army, which will in fact destroy the Ukrainian one, and lead to a heavy loss of life.

Posted by: Bane at February 26, 2014 08:41 AM (/FnUH)

37 Question: was the 2010 election determined to have been fraudulent?

Posted by: See You Next Tuesday at February 26, 2014 08:41 AM (DAevm)

38 34 Don't tell me DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM because I will kick you in the nutz.

Posted by: BurtTC at February 26, 2014 12:39 PM (TOk1P)

We don't have either of those here. We have never had "Democracy".

Posted by: Vic[/i] at February 26, 2014 08:41 AM (T2V/1)

39 Russia is not our "enemy." We don't have to do anything to, for, or about them, unless it's in our interest to do so. Posted by: BurtTC at February 26, 2014 12:39 PM (TOk1P)

The Russians really don't see us that way. So that's worth factoring in to your calculus.

They look to - and have been looking to - stick a finger in our geopolitical eye whenever and wherever they can.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:41 AM (JpC1K)

40 I suppose Obama could deliver a speech in which he makes the case that "strength" is not determined by how many you can enslave, but how many you set free, and how naked use of political/coercive power is not a sign of strength, but of weakness. Of course, he's not in a good position to make this case, because he certainly seems to employ such tactics in his own country. Great Reaganesque answer. True, it would have to come from someone more believeable than Barky.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 08:41 AM (CRyse)

41 I like Rand but I'm concerned about his seeming softness on Amnesty and very concerned about his open support of McConnell.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 26, 2014 08:41 AM (olDqf)

42 I have never known TFG to not gloat about winning something.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 26, 2014 08:42 AM (V70Uh)

43 No matter what, Gaylord Focker and his team will Twerk Putin.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 08:42 AM (dDf+N)

44 But, thanks to insanely cheap federal insurance, they can continue their god-given right to live in a high-risk hurricane zone. At taxpayer expense!
___
Thank God we can now end that whole austerity thing and people can go back to building bigger houses in hurricane zones at government expense! Think of all the windows our glaziers can replace!!!

Posted by: Some Liberal at February 26, 2014 08:42 AM (P3U0f)

45 Posted by: Bane at February 26, 2014 12:41 PM (/FnUH) Not unlike Georgia, which didn't end well for the Georgians. Posted by: Sean Bannion at February 26, 2014 12:41 PM (JpC1K) Why it's almost if they're our #1 geopolitical foe!

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at February 26, 2014 08:43 AM (hq5sb)

46 Pardon me, but why are we saying that the Ukrainian hostilities and unrest are over? Does anyone really believe that? I say "Don't rub Putin's nose in Ukrainian failure" not because there's no reason to taunt him, but because there's no guarantee he's "failed" yet.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:43 AM (4df7R)

47
"Hmmmmm..... Putin is using gas pipelines as a club to beat his intransigent states into submission."

** looks at a map of the Red States

"Valerie..... come here. We need to re-think this Keystone pipeline thingy."

Posted by: Barrack Hussein Obama at February 26, 2014 08:43 AM (nELVU)

48 Jeezuz Rand Paul is a Church Lady. ooooh be nice to Putin or he will act out. BULLSHIT! Putin will do--what Putin will do. You cannot control his behavior by niceties. Maybe some cold hard cash but not niceties.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:43 AM (RJMhd)

49 All Putin wants to do is roll in on a tank and paint dicks on his former possession.

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 26, 2014 08:43 AM (P1WNR)

50 >>>Pardon me, but why are we saying that the Ukrainian hostilities and unrest are over? Does anyone really believe that? I say "Don't rub Putin's nose in Ukrainian failure" not because there's no reason to taunt him, but because there's no guarantee he's "failed" yet. i'm not! This is just the opening pawn moves. The king hasn't even castled yet.

Posted by: Bane at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (/FnUH)

51 If only people had been Nicer to-- Hitler!!!

Posted by: Rand Paul at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (RJMhd)

52 My friends, if we hold all of North America and South America, we get 7 bonus armies every turn!

Posted by: John McCain at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (NF2Bf)

53 On the other hand: "We must take a leadership role on peace and freedom and human dignity, and we must intervene by military force when it is in America's strong national interests to do so." Applause applause. I don't agree with this. This, to me, is playing the role of the world's policeman; a violation of the statement preceding, which I do agree with.

Posted by: Titanium at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (j/0FK)

54 The game never ends. When you die, another player comes in to replace you.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (V70Uh)

55 I have never known TFG to not gloat about winning something.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 26, 2014 12:42 PM (V70Uh)

-----

Hey.... Jugears...... YOU didnt win squat.

Posted by: Ukrainian Rebels Union #001 at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (nELVU)

56 The Russians really don't see us that way. So that's worth factoring in to your calculus.
***
We have some interests in conflict with Russia, but I think Putin does this more because he can leverage the decades of propaganda the Soviets put together blaming all of Russia and the third world's problems on the US.

Posted by: 18-1 at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (P3U0f)

57 KyivPost ‏@KyivPost Shredded documents found near VETEK, but no sign of billionaire owner Kurchenko #EuroMaidan #Ukraine #kyiv UkraineÂ’s youngest billionaire Serhiy Kurchenko, who amassed his fortune in just over a yearÂ’s time by acquiring some of the countryÂ’s key assets, evacuated his company VETEK after the regime of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych fell on Feb. 22. The whereabouts of Kurchenko are unknown. He has long been suspected of being a front man for the Yanukovych family, but in previous interviews denied the claim. The 28-year-old owner of Eastern European Fuel and Energy Company (VETEK) left behind some clues, including 30 trash bags filled with destroyed documents and business cards of VETEK employees. These items were found by journalists on Feb. 24 in a parking lot near Arena City entertainment center, which used to host the companyÂ’s office. On the same day, VETEKÂ’s official statement appeared on the corporate website and mentioned that the Â“groupÂ’s companies continue to work as normal and fulfill all the obligations within home and foreign contracts.Â” The Kyiv Post found the doors of the VETEK office in Arena City closed. The rooms visible through the glass were obviously empty with almost no furniture or equipment. Â“VETEK employees started leaving the office and evacuating the equipment on Feb. 17,Â” one of the Arena City guards told the Kyiv Post.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (ZPrif)

58 >>>You cannot control his behavior by niceties. Nor can you control his behavior through tough talk and moral outrage.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:44 AM (/FnUH)

59 49 All Putin wants to do is roll in on a tank and paint dicks on his former possession. Posted by: Dr Spank at February 26, 2014 12:43 PM (P1WNR) ********** Pretty sure that dick will be painted crimson and look like a--hammer.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:45 AM (RJMhd)

60 All Putin wants to do is roll in on a tank and paint dicks on his former possession. Posted by: Dr Spank at February 26, 2014 12:43 PM (P1WNR)

Is his former possession in a racktastic Christmas Elf costume too?

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:45 AM (JpC1K)

61 I'm not making fun of you tasker-- but you can't "control" his behavior through sharp rhetoric either.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:45 AM (/FnUH)

62 No matter what, Gaylord Focker and his team will Twerk Putin. Great punk rock band name: Twerking Putin.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 08:45 AM (CRyse)

63 Rand is great on domestic policy. With that out of the way, wtf? Putin has not even been set back yet in Ukraine. This is a fluid situation which could still go a lot of different ways. I agree that one should never poke the bear with a stick.

Posted by: Beagle at February 26, 2014 08:45 AM (sOtz/)

64 58 >>>You cannot control his behavior by niceties. Nor can you control his behavior through tough talk and moral outrage. Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:44 PM (/FnUH) ************ Who the hell is doing that?

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:45 AM (RJMhd)

55: "Hey.... Jugears...... YOU didnt win squat."

I read that as Jaguars...and I was still right.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) Est. 1836 at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (OJn3e)

66 Hey.... Jugears...... YOU didnt win squat.

Posted by: Ukrainian Rebels Union #001 at February 26, 2014 12:44 PM (nELVU)

___

Arab spring, Ukrainian spring, I'm on a roll guys. Hey redstaters, I'm coming for you next!

Posted by: Preznit Big Brother at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (P3U0f)

67 Or you could try to control all of Asia for the same number of armies per turn. Good luck.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (dDf+N)

68
The pretext for the use of the army to kill protesters was alleged "intelligence" suggesting that the protesters were really (wait for it...!) "terrorists."

I see this here many times in the near future.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (n0DEs)

69 Not unlike Georgia, which didn't end well for the Georgians. Posted by: Sean Bannion F'n Sherman!

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (CRyse)

70 John McCain, meanwhile, is much more confrontational. KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHERE THE FLOWS, ONLY THAT IT FLOWS!

Posted by: John McCain at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (IS2o0)

71 It's pretty much a false dilemma.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (RJMhd)

72 Twerking Putin opens for Pussy Riot next week in Sochi.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:46 AM (JpC1K)

73 I think what I like about some of the libertarian bent in Rand's talk is the acknowledgement that the US can not "tame" these barbaric nations. We tried. Through stick and carrot.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 56% more DOOM! at February 26, 2014 08:47 AM (09o/X)

74 I think the only way you can "control" Putin's behavior is by waiting for him to keel over and pouring cement into his grave.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:47 AM (4df7R)

75 >>>Who the hell is doing that? Well, by criticizing Paul's "niceties" approach, I took you to be endorsing a more forceful rhetorical position. No?

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:47 AM (/FnUH)

76 He doesn't have to enslave anything. 1. Send in FSD agents to provoke rioting by pro-Russian Ukrainians, a sizeable faction. They're proud of their KGB traditions in the FSD. 2. Wait for the rioting to get beyond the Ukrainian police to handle. 3. Send in a few brigades into Ukraine "to protect Russian nationals and property" from the rioting because the Ukrainians can't. 4. Camp out on Ukrainian soil til the government collapses from the strain of not making war on Russia. 5. Wait for a new government to sit. 6. Pull out the army. 7. If the new government isn't pro-Russian, repeat step 1. Putin does not have to create a Russian Raj that governs just and fair. He doesn't have to govern Ukraine at all. He doesn't need Ukraine to develop and grow. He wins if Ukraine's exisiting government isn't openly hostile to Moscow. If it's a broiling riotous turmoil of collapsing government after collapsing government, that works for him.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 26, 2014 08:47 AM (5xmd7)

77 Is his former possession in a racktastic Christmas Elf costume too?
___
Hey Reggie, I know what I want you to be for Halloween now.

Posted by: Preznit Big Brother at February 26, 2014 08:47 AM (P3U0f)

78 Putin is pretty smart--let's allow him that much-- he knows John McCain is a minority party Senator.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:48 AM (RJMhd)

79 Â Some situations recquire forcefull declarations some do not.Â I side with rand paul on this one.

Posted by: Kreplach at February 26, 2014 08:48 AM (QMRMM)

80 With the massive domestic problems we have, a policy on the Ukraine seems like a luxury we can't afford.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 26, 2014 08:48 AM (IS2o0)

81 What difference at this point does it make?!?!?!?1!/1/!?!??

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at February 26, 2014 08:48 AM (GjPnA)

82 This is the very subject of the latest Dan Carlin Common Sense podcast, btw. It's always interesting when the opinions of the far left, libertarians, and paleocons wrap around the dark side of the moon and find supportable common ground.

Posted by: Jaws at February 26, 2014 08:49 AM (eKZp1)

83 75 >>>Who the hell is doing that? Well, by criticizing Paul's "niceties" approach, I took you to be endorsing a more forceful rhetorical position. No? Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:47 PM (/FnUH) ************** Nope. I'm calling it a false dilemma and I am saying Putin is smart enough to know that John McCain is a minority party Senator.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:49 AM (RJMhd)

84 Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR 1m #NATO promises to support territorial integrity of #Ukraine "In accordance with the provisions of the Distinctive Partnership between NATO and Ukraine, NATO allies continue to support Ukraine's sovereignty and independence, territorial integrity, democratic development, the principle of inviolability of borders as a key factor of stability and security in Central and Eastern Europe and the continent as a whole "- quoted document Interfax-Ukraine .

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 08:49 AM (ZPrif)

85 The last thing we want is to get into a serious war with 404care as commander in chief.

Posted by: WalrusRex at February 26, 2014 08:49 AM (Hx5uv)

86 With the massive domestic problems we have, a policy on the Ukraine seems like a luxury we can't afford.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 26, 2014 12:48 PM (IS2o0)

Honestly, I'd rather have one so that the lefties can't use our LACK of one as a distraction.

"Why are we talking about Obamacare when UKRAINE!"

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:49 AM (4df7R)

Or you could try to control all of Asia for the same number of armies per turn. Good luck.

My friends...attackers get three dice, defenders only get two.

Logically, it is time to invade Kamchatka!

Posted by: John McCain at February 26, 2014 08:50 AM (NF2Bf)

88 Whether or not Putin has been humiliated remains to be seen. It is way to early to tell. Whether or not we should intervene, however, is clear. We should not. Judging by his actions in Iraq and Afganistan, Barry is not the president to lead the U.S. In any military action. Besides, Putin is well aware of how weak America is with Barry in charge. Putin has a lot of things to weigh in making his decision about how to handle Ukrain. Barry, and thereby America, are not really factors in his decision- which puts America in a place we have never been before.

Posted by: Chilling the most at February 26, 2014 08:50 AM (gxtMZ)

89 ...and I am doing that because I sure as hell know Obama with his SCIgen generated, meandering speeches without much of a point is--not doing it. The guy that John McCain lost to--badly.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:50 AM (RJMhd)

90 Way too early for an End Zone dance in front of Putin.

Posted by: Paladin at February 26, 2014 08:50 AM (lP8dE)

91 72 Twerking Putin opens for Pussy Riot next week in Sochi. Posted by: Sean Bannion at February 26, 2014 12:46 PM (JpC1K) In Lubyanka, Pussy control YOU!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvok-HrCd6Q

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 26, 2014 08:50 AM (olDqf)

92 We tried. Through stick and carrot.
***
I don't think we used much of the stick really. We remade Germany by leveling the country and killing a significant portion of its young men. In Iraq and Afghanistan we'd tried to make sure the larger population felt no pain from the war even if they were actively fighting against us.

If we had fought the WoT like WWII or say the Moro rebellion the results would likely have been different..

Posted by: 18-1 at February 26, 2014 08:51 AM (P3U0f)

93 >>>I'm calling it a false dilemma and I am saying Putin is smart enough to know that John McCain is a minority party Senator. um... okay, well that still seems to be saying that John McCain's rhetoric (or anyone other than Obama's forward-leaning rhetoric) is cost-free, and it being cost-free, I trust you would not then object to calling evil by its proper name?

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:51 AM (/FnUH)

94 Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 26, 2014 12:49 PM (4df7R) Plus we cannot simply retreat from the world to solve our domestic problems. These things do have larger implications. If Putin rebuilds the USSR while we sleep, then what?

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at February 26, 2014 08:51 AM (hq5sb)

95 let's see what kind of unity government they set up first and how elections proceed. Egypt was all hopes and dreams, and then moslem brotherhood took over. Ukraine has a version of that called "svoboda" (nor religious but ideological). re: Russia vis-a-vis Ukraine - it probably wants a relationship with Ukraine similar to the one China has with Hong-Kong. Crimea is an autonomous region will remain that after the dust settles, at least short term. did anyone know that Europe had a Commissioner for "enlargement"? news to me, but then it's Brussels. so, he is all about Ukraine needs Russia, russia needs ukraine. seems to be the Euro position.

Posted by: runner at February 26, 2014 08:51 AM (yrk2K)

96 "Paul's statement -- to not overly rouse the ire of the Russian bear, which, being a frankly more primitive political culture, will meet humiliation with military force and slaughter -- is wise enough. Diplomatic.

And on the third hand there are those times when you be quiet because that other guy is incandescent with rage and about ready to go postal in his "near abroad" and that wouldn't be a good thing at all. Like after 9/11 when a lot of US foes went a little quiet because they had no idea what we would do or to whom only that it wouldn't be a good thing and it would be better not to catch any part of it.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Winter of Discontent will End! The Flowers of Fury will be here for Spring Planting at February 26, 2014 08:51 AM (hLRSq)

97 "Why are we talking about Obamacare when UKRAINE!"

Because your inability to construct a website call into question your various other abilities such as the ability to speak, to think, to breathe or to recite the alphabet without stuttering.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:52 AM (JpC1K)

98 I heard on the radio that a particularly hated member of the former regime had been shot by persons unknown. He was hit in the leg and apparently it is not life threatening. but the thing is that he was, in effect, the press secretary for Yanky. I wonder what Clown Carney thinks about shooting press secretaries who enable dictators to rule against the will of the people by lying for them.

Posted by: WalrusRex at February 26, 2014 08:52 AM (Hx5uv)

99 The last thing we want is to get into a serious war with 404care as commander in chief.
___
Can't we just like drone the Russians to death? I've got a concert to go to man, I don't have time to lead a "war".

Posted by: Preznit Big Brother at February 26, 2014 08:52 AM (P3U0f)

100 okay tasker I'm going to bow out of this because I become frustrated when someone wants to take all sides of an issue, or none at all. I don't know what I'm arguing with. I said "I don't know" a bunch of times in the post. I suggested that a face-saving pathway could make sense. You say "BULLSHIT!" to all this, and when I get you to specify your position, you say you have none, except to gainsay mine (which was weakly expressed, btw). Unless you're going to commit to an actual position, I'm not inclined to defend my own.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:52 AM (/FnUH)

101 I broke down and read the WaPo link. Rand mostly makes sense. He was not suggesting this is over, mainly anti-bear poking analysis.

Posted by: Beagle at February 26, 2014 08:53 AM (sOtz/)

102 68 It were those darn tearrorists I tells ya!

Posted by: Ousted Ukrainian Preezy at February 26, 2014 08:53 AM (GSIDW)

103 In Lubyanka, Pussy control YOU!!!!

Oh, dude, not just in Lubyanka. No sir, not just there.

I assure you of this.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:53 AM (JpC1K)

104 85 The last thing we want is to get into a serious war with 404care as commander in chief.

Posted by: WalrusRex at February 26, 2014 12:49 PM (Hx5uv)

THIS. Unfortunately, Ukraine is in some kind of limited partnership with NATO, which means we get involved whether we like it or not, should their territorial integrity be violated.

Posted by: joncelli at February 26, 2014 08:53 AM (RD7QR)

105 Who the hell is doing that?

Posted by: tasker

It's the point of the article, if I'm reading it correctly. Paul is advocating now, from this point on, not to bluster and be smug it.

From now on. Not previously. Hence forth, if you will. The Future. ( Insert Time arrow here )

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 26, 2014 08:53 AM (xrX4n)

106 when someone says "BULLSHIT!" to a suggestion about how to proceed, it is a common and understandable assumption that the person calling "BULLSHIT!" has some other suggestion in mind. But when I ask you about it, you say you have no other suggestion; you just want to say "BULLSHIT!" to mine.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:54 AM (/FnUH)

107 I assume the Ukrainian protester "terrorists" are the same people who "faked" Turkish PM Erdogan's phone conversations about socking away money?

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 08:54 AM (4df7R)

108 Here's my suggestion for Ukraine policy: The EU sucks. Russia sucks. Ukraine seems pretty awesome. Offer them statehood, watch the EU and Russia scream.

Posted by: Cato at February 26, 2014 08:55 AM (OdVTN)

109 I tend to shy away from foreign policy except to say that freedom is always a good thing. And on that note, I must surrender our only working laptop to B'Gal. Y'all have fun and try not to trash the place, 'k?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit[/i][/u][/b][/s] at February 26, 2014 08:55 AM (0HooB)

110 which means we get involved whether we like it or not, should their territorial integrity be violated.
___
So, when I said their territorial integrity wouldn't be violated I actually meant that I was going to go play golf. I never set a redline or any other color of line.

Geez, what do you people want from me?!?

Posted by: Preznit Big Brother after Putin invades at February 26, 2014 08:55 AM (P3U0f)

111 234 FFS don't make me agree with Hollowpoint. Posted by: Burn the Witch FFS ace, please don't make tasker agree with that libertarian Rand Paul.

Posted by: X at February 26, 2014 08:55 AM (KHo8t)

112 Sean did the armor return to Europe or are we backing up NATO with nothing more impressive than some MPs?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 08:55 AM (dDf+N)

113 I trust you would not then object to calling evil by its proper name? Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:51 PM (/FnUH) ************* If you are asking me if I am sort of a Reaganite the answer would be --yes. Such as Trust but verify. Words only do so much--I am not an accolade of "Smart Diplomacy". I'll go for the speak softly but carry a big stick--emphasis on the BIG stick. Les mots sont de rein.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:56 AM (RJMhd)

114 Day by Day cartoon has a nice explanation of why the govt snipers stopped.

Posted by: EC at February 26, 2014 08:56 AM (GQ8sn)

115 Sean did the armor return to Europe or are we backing up NATO with nothing more impressive than some MPs?
___
My teleprompter is locked and ready guys.

Posted by: Preznit Big Brother at February 26, 2014 08:56 AM (P3U0f)

116 Don't cross this line. no i mean it. no really, Really!. even if we thought we should. even if we weren't spread thin with even more cuts coming to our national security interests our military etc . (by design i believe) Do we think this administration and cohorts in charge could fight a war with Russia? wasn't the writing on the wall when we ceded Georgia to its fate? and Russia bringing warships to Syria? I think we have ceded superpower status to some one else? could this be true?

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 08:56 AM (nqBYe)

117 Thank God we can now end that whole austerity thing and people can go back to building bigger houses in hurricane zones at government expense! Think of all the windows our glaziers can replace!!! - Yeah, baby, we're gonna go power spending now!!!

Posted by: WalrusRex at February 26, 2014 08:56 AM (Hx5uv)

118 106 when someone says "BULLSHIT!" to a suggestion about how to proceed, it is a common and understandable assumption that the person calling "BULLSHIT!" has some other suggestion in mind. But when I ask you about it, you say you have no other suggestion; you just want to say "BULLSHIT!" to mine. Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:54 PM (/FnUH) ************** Na---to Rand Paul basically. He's getting too naggy lately.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 08:57 AM (RJMhd)

119 >>> I'll go for the speak softly but carry a big stick--emphasis on the BIG stick. With Russia? Over Ukraine? At no point did Reagan ever seriously suggest a shooting war with Russia over its satellites and satrapies.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 08:57 AM (/FnUH)

120 @117: People in Florida pay for ridiculous property insurance for the privilege of building in those hurricane zones. What always boggled my mind is why the Mississippi flood plain gets away so cheaply by comparison, despite the constant destruction there too.

Posted by: Cato at February 26, 2014 08:57 AM (OdVTN)

121 I do think it's important to establish a face-saving path for Putin, because, at the end of the day, I think it's more important that Ukraine be liberated (or at least, most of it) than that we deliver an immediate humiliation to Putin. There's also the point that I don't think we can deliver an immediate humiliation to Putin. So that plays into it. I will say don't kick Putin in the balls is generally sound advice.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 08:58 AM (VtjlW)

122

I finally have figured out McCain, who has mystified me ever since he so totally screwed up his presidential run.

You know how they always say "politics stops at the waters edge"? American political opponents become Americans only when discussing foreign threats, especially when those politicians are themselves overseas and talking to foreign audiences.

Well, McCain has it exactly opposite: he's willing to be very aggressively political over foreign affairs but it stops at the waters edge. Here at home, he sees no threat to the Republic from other Americans, no domestic hill worth dying on. It's kind of incredible. I wonder if he's dyslexic in every other part of his life too, because he sure as hell is a political dyslexic.

Posted by: MTF at February 26, 2014 08:58 AM (B5y+v)

123 At no point did Reagan ever seriously suggest a shooting war with Russia over its satellites and satrapies.
***
He did have some ideas with how to deal with them indirectly though...and unlike pretty much every president since him they worked pretty damn well...

I also liked the exploding gas pipeline.

Posted by: 18-1 at February 26, 2014 08:58 AM (P3U0f)

124 I'll go for the speak softly but carry a big stick--emphasis on the BIG stick. With Russia? Over Ukraine? I am definitely not a geopolitical expert, but that would be seriously bad juju.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 08:59 AM (CRyse)

125 btw while i made statements there are also real questions. did we cede our status as a superpower. is that legitimate ?

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 08:59 AM (nqBYe)

126 AlextheChick, don't think President Mom-Jeans can kick that high.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 08:59 AM (dDf+N)

127 Oops! acolyte of Smart Diplomacy--jeez.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:00 AM (RJMhd)

128 If a faction in Mexico even more hostile to the US overthrew a corrupt though elected Mexican government , how would you react if Putin talked tough indicating Russia would intervene to make sure this faction stayed in power? That is how Russia and others hostile to the US look at these things. They don't see right and wrong. They see do as I say not as I do. They seek their own self interest as we do. We don't have to be nice but we have to shape our responses appropriately and use and understand their mindset to our advantage.

Posted by: See You Next Tuesday at February 26, 2014 09:00 AM (DAevm)

129 Ukraine has named Oleksandr Turchynov, a well-known evangelical Baptist pastor and top opposition politician in Ukraine, as acting president.

He is known in political circles as a principled, honest leader, although he was somehow always in the shadow of Yulia Tymoshenko, the jailed prime minister who was released yesterday.

"He is well-known as a preacher who, despite his political opposition work, preaches on a regular basis at one of the Baptist churches in Kiev..."

http://tinyurl.com/kupuv8s

Posted by: grammie winger at February 26, 2014 09:01 AM (oMKp3)

130 Why is he trying to tell other people what to do? He isn't in an executive post. He is supposed to debate and craft laws and vote. He also isn't a pastor. The Pauls are Jimmy Carter on foreign policy.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 26, 2014 09:01 AM (6bMeY)

131 119 >>> I'll go for the speak softly but carry a big stick--emphasis on the BIG stick. With Russia? Over Ukraine? At no point did Reagan ever seriously suggest a shooting war with Russia over its satellites and satrapies. Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:57 PM (/FnUH) *************** No that's in reference to-- having a strong defense prevents war.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:01 AM (RJMhd)

132 well we certainly shouldn't kick Putin in the balls unless we mean it. and with country after country collapsing and being handed over to other despots ( or change of same oles to new same type oles). i am left with the question is this all purposeful.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:02 AM (nqBYe)

133 I hope people in Brussels and in DC have pondered a spin off of the situation if Russia does go full Cossack on the Ukraine.

What to do with all the people who flee. Refugees.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 09:02 AM (dDf+N)

134 It's a saying of FDR's.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:02 AM (RJMhd)

135 btw while i made statements there are also real questions. did we cede our status as a superpower. is that legitimate ? Legit question willow. I don't think we have. I think barky & horseface are clueless on how to proceed.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 09:02 AM (CRyse)

136 I hate to go off topic, but my heat isn't working, I turned it up over three hours ago. Battery in iPad is 5%. I have to plug this in & call my older bother to check boiler.

Posted by: Carol at February 26, 2014 09:02 AM (z4WKX)

137 Having a strong defense prevents war, hence walk softly and carry a big stick. Or as Al Capone put it, "You can get more with a kind word and a gun."

Posted by: Cato at February 26, 2014 09:03 AM (OdVTN)

138 Sean did the armor return to Europe or are we backing up NATO with nothing more impressive than some MPs? Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 12:55 PM (dDf+N)

Much (but not all) of it came straight back home and went to Anniston Army Depot for rebuild.

So, yeah, we're backing them up with some MPs.

...and maybe a toothless guard dog and a mean sanitation worker or two.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:03 AM (JpC1K)

139 Ugh Theodore Roosevelt. I always thought it meant have a strong defense.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:03 AM (RJMhd)

140 rick, so my new thing would be. If we ceded , than our options are very different . i wonder how many pentagon folks have perpetual head aches.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:04 AM (nqBYe)

141 So, yeah, we're backing them up with some MPs.

...and maybe a toothless guard dog and a mean sanitation worker or two.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at February 26, 2014 01:03 PM (JpC1K)

Don't forget axe handles!

Posted by: EC at February 26, 2014 09:04 AM (GQ8sn)

142 It's a saying of FDR's. FDR or TR? Speak softly & carry a big stick was TR's. Bully!

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 09:05 AM (CRyse)

143 Ec and some rocks fitting comfy in the hand. maybe a sling shot if we want to be very serious.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:06 AM (nqBYe)

144 Silver DIMES!111!!!1!!!!11111 ZOG !1!!!111 Disband the ARMY!!!111!!!11!!1

Posted by: Rand's Daddy [/i] [/b] at February 26, 2014 09:06 AM (5ikDv)

145 WWII in Europe really started when Italy invaded Ethiopia. Haile Selassie stood before the League of Nations begging for help. And got none.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 09:06 AM (dDf+N)

146 Ec and some rocks fitting comfy in the hand.
maybe a sling shot if we want to be very serious.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 01:06 PM (nqBYe)[

And when all else fails, there's always the "piss/defecate/vomit" regimen, as supported by the CO legislature as a defense against rapists.

Also, pens.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:07 AM (4df7R)

147 143 It's a saying of FDR's. FDR or TR? Speak softly & carry a big stick was TR's. Bully! Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 01:05 PM (CRyse) ****** Ya I fixed that up thread. --btw I always f'n do that.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:07 AM (RJMhd)

148 rick, so my new thing would be. If we ceded , than our options are very different . i wonder how many pentagon folks have perpetual head aches. Many. Considering they are looking at cutting to pre-WWII levels.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 09:07 AM (CRyse)

149 And when all else fails, there's always the "piss/defecate/vomit" regimen, as supported by the CO legislature as a defense against rapists. Also, pens. Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 26, 2014 01:07 PM (4df7R) do not forget a 'just say No.' it might work.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:08 AM (nqBYe)

150 Many. Considering they are looking at cutting to pre-WWII levels.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 01:07 PM (CRyse)

Because the world is SO MUCH SAFER AND MORE STABLE today than back in the 30s.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:08 AM (4df7R)

151 Ec and some rocks fitting comfy in the hand.
maybe a sling shot if we want to be very serious.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 01:06 PM (nqBYe)

I mention axe handles because Jones in CO did guard duty back in 1980's West Germany. He was issued, not a rifle or a pistol, but an axe handle. Just the handle! I asked if someone else had the blade, so they could find each other and form the complete axe if any shit happened.

Nope!

Just the handle portion.

Posted by: EC at February 26, 2014 09:09 AM (GQ8sn)

152 Hmmm. Guess I have to ask the question -- what failure?

If one asserts that there is a Putin Doctrine. Then in a sense is not the Putin Doctrine == Monroe Doctrine. ie don't interfere with our neighbors internal problems?

And if that is the case -- then whither Venezuela? Is that Obama's foreign policy failure?? One should be careful with comparisons.

Posted by: PissAntinPa at February 26, 2014 09:09 AM (RHBWt)

153 You actually could say that FDR did not learn Theodore's mantra well. Isn't some of the delay of getting into WW II caused by FDR needing to spin up our defense after a policy of too much-- bread and butter?

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:09 AM (RJMhd)

154 MWr, btw, a pen is very pointy and therefore should be eschewed strongly..

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:09 AM (nqBYe)

155 did we cede our status as a superpower.
is that legitimate ?

Posted by: willow

Yes, 'we' did. The voters won't support another war outside of a direct attack on the US.

They won't and we know it. And without the willingness to go to war, not necessarily in the case of Ukraine, our status is lessened. (I don't think there will even be a clear point at which our forces could be deployed in direct response to something the Russian would do militarily. China and Russia are more interested in covert and economic warfare )

We're still weighty enough to influence things but our current posture is and has been determined by a bored and indifference populace. We may not like it but that's just the way it is. (and, no, we don't get shirts )

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 26, 2014 09:10 AM (xrX4n)

156

149: "Many. Considering they are looking at cutting to pre-WWII levels."

But note that our deployments and obligations are NOT also being cut to pre-WWII levels.

Retention rates will be so low that we will end up with pre-1776 levels as well.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) Est. 1836 at February 26, 2014 09:10 AM (/qzu7)

157 Seeing some Russia Strong!! trolls.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 09:10 AM (ZPrif)

158 Ya I fixed that up thread.

--btw I always f'n do that.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 01:07 PM (RJMhd)

-----

Well .... Is speak LOOOOOUUDDDLLLLLLYYY!!!!

And carry an BIGGGERRRRRR STIIIIICK!!!!

Posted by: Yosemite Sam at February 26, 2014 09:10 AM (nELVU)

159 Putin is gonna do what Putin is gonna do and neither we nor the EU is going to do jack just like we didn't in Syria. Petro politics is Putin's game and he is going to let a valuable piece like Ukraine go without a fight.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 26, 2014 09:11 AM (g1DWB)

160 Thucydides writing about the Peloponnesian War which would eventually destroy democratic Athens said the war started over a dispute in a far away land between people we know nothing of. He was right but because of the power politics of the time, both Athens and Sparta felt forced to go to war over a dispute that didn't concern them.

Posted by: WalrusRex at February 26, 2014 09:11 AM (Hx5uv)

161 And when all else fails, there's always the "piss/defecate/vomit" regimen, as supported by the CO legislature as a defense against rapists. Also, pens. Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 26, 2014 01:07 PM (4df7R) do not forget a 'just say No.' it might work. Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 01:08 PM (nqBYe) Also I'm on the rag and have the clap.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 09:11 AM (VtjlW)

162 OT, but ace, if you're feeling in the mood to put up a non-political sort of post today to break up the DOOOM, may I recommend one of the following:

A) The latest "Godzilla" trailer (though I recommend earmuffs to protect your ears from AtC's gleeful screams)

or

B) The whale bones and "aquatic sloth" story from the side bar

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:11 AM (4df7R)

163 They are not cutting to pre-WWII levels the Army. In 1939 IIRC the standing US Army was smaller than the army of Romania. What Hagel and his buzz-saw is doing is cutting the force level to about 450,000 or twice what the US had in 1939.

However, as compared to 1939 where the US only had military presence in the US, the territories, Canal Zone, and the Philippines; the modern US Army is scattered hither and yon in about half the countries of the world along with being in the US.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 09:11 AM (dDf+N)

164 pre war w11 costs. well you know how it is. when you're so busy worrying about gay, fair shares, and those creepy ass rich folks in your own yard... what is a federal govt to do? but drop their actual constituted JOB!

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:12 AM (nqBYe)

165 Also I'm on the rag and have the clap.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 01:11 PM (VtjlW)

How YOU doin'???

Posted by: EC at February 26, 2014 09:12 AM (GQ8sn)

166 I saw "Bored and Indifferent Populace" open for "WTF Just Happened" in .... well.... lottsa times actually.

Posted by: fixerupper at February 26, 2014 09:12 AM (nELVU)

167 I wish someone in my administration had come up with designating Tea Party protestors at 'terrorists'

Posted by: Barack O'Stalin at February 26, 2014 09:12 AM (Q6pxP)

168 Gracefully surrender the things of youth:
The birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan
And let not the sands of time
Get in your lunch.

Hire people with hooks.

For a good time call 606-4311;
Ask for "Ken."

Take heart amid the deepening gloom
That your dog is finally getting enough cheese.

And reflect that whatever misfortune may be your lot
It could only be worse in Milwaukee.

You are a fluke
Of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not
The universe is laughing behind your back.

Posted by: Barack Obama's taster at February 26, 2014 09:12 AM (e8kgV)

169 The pen and the phone is mightier than the sword. - stuff Barackus I said

Posted by: WalrusRex at February 26, 2014 09:13 AM (Hx5uv)

170 We may not like it but that's just the way it is. (and, no, we don't get shirts ) Posted by: weft cut-loop So #twoweeks was a lie?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 09:13 AM (CRyse)

171 We have nothing to fear with Barack Obama in the White House

Posted by: John McCain at February 26, 2014 09:13 AM (Q6pxP)

172 I dunno that I rank Russia the same as North Korea or Iran as 'an axis of evil'. As the Soviet Union, sure. Are they a potential danger to us? Of course. So is China. In fact, China may very well be the larger danger nowadays.

I think that Rubio had the right of it in that speech yesterday; advocate for freedom everywhere. Be a proud spokesman for it in every case, including Ukraine. And if Rand failed to do that here, then it is a fail. Not a killer fail, but a mark against him.

And I consider myself one of his biggest supporters. Rand, if you will stand against the tyranny of TFG, surely the least you can do is the same with Putin.

Posted by: GnuBreed at February 26, 2014 09:13 AM (wNF3N)

173 No nose-rubbing necessary. Just send three squadrons of these to the Ukranians, and let them do their thing:

A-10 Warthogs Dancing to AC/DC's Thunderstruck:

http://tinyurl.com/44axnub

Putin can send his tanks, and the Ukes can send their crews home in body bags. No big love for the Ukraine, but I think they've had just about enough of the Russian boot (and mass graves).

Posted by: Sharkman at February 26, 2014 09:13 AM (TM1p8)

174 Also I'm on the rag and have the clap.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 01:11 PM (VtjlW)

Absolutely. That works 9 times out of 10. Of course, that 10th time is usually a doozy.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:13 AM (4df7R)

175 Or you could try to control all of Asia for the same number of armies per turn. Good luck.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 12:46 PM (dDf+N)

I just wanted to point out (and maybe this is your point) that Ukraine is the one my friends never let me hold onto if I actually control Asia (and Australia, obviously).

Posted by: Methos at February 26, 2014 09:14 AM (hO9ad)

176 "Some on our side are so stuck in the Cold War era that they want to tweak Russia all the time and I don't think that is a good idea," Paul said on Tuesday. Hey, Rand- the problem isn't that people on "our side" are stuck in the Cold War era. Enough with the moral relativist navel-gazing. Putin is a thug who would re-ignite the Cold War for the sake of his own legitimacy and power. Every time I decide to take a second look at Rand and the Libertarians, they go out of their way to remind me why they can't be trusted. Idealists have no business holding the reigns of power.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 26, 2014 09:14 AM (SY2Kh)

177 Have you reread the quatrains regarding the third antichrist?

Posted by: Nostradamus at February 26, 2014 09:14 AM (Q6pxP)

178

Nor can you control his behavior through tough talk and moral outrage.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:44 PM (/FnUH)

I'm not a big fan of tough talk, but moral outrage has its place. A few days ago Marco Rubio gave a notable speech refuting the dreamy-eyed Leftist notion promoted by one of his Senate colleagues of Cuba as a socialist paradise on earth. While it is unlikely Rubio's speech will have any effect on the Cuban government, it did have an effect on me since it's been a long time since I've heard an American politician speak out so plainly, powerfully and matter-of-factly against those evil rat bastards running Cuba and Venezuela.

Insofar as Rand Paul is concerned, he can only be what his father made him to be: a closeted believer that some evil neoconservative *cough* Jewish *cough* cabal has steered the United States into imperialism and interventionism for purposes of profit, et al. We're the international bad guys, according to common libertarian theory. Iran, for example, is a victim of Machiavellian Zionist scheming, at least in the eyes of Ron Paul and (very probably) his son. That's just not sane.

So screw Rand Paul and his father. No libertarian can be trusted to formulate or oversee a rational foreign policy. They're nuts on the subject. The only thing that separates libertarians from the Alex Jones Prison Planet crowd is belief in the fucking Illuminati--oh, wait...

Posted by: troyriser at February 26, 2014 09:14 AM (V9ol4)

179 >>>having a strong defense prevents war.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 01:01 PM (RJMhd)

That really only works in cases where we have a credible chance of pursuing military action. I don't think anybody - Putin, the EU, or Americans - thinks there is *any* chance of the US using military force in Ukraine, *especially* not with Obama in charge and *especially* now that we're going back to the bad old days of isolationist-level military readiness.

Posted by: Paul at February 26, 2014 09:14 AM (9qDRl)

180 So #twoweeks was a lie?

Posted by: rickb223

Are you sitting down?

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (xrX4n)

181 Great punk rock band name: Twerking Putin.

I don't care where you say you saw them.
Nobody opens for Pussy Riot.

HorseWhippin Cossacks were sure trying, though.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (xq1UY)

182 Also I hate to say this but all the face saving niceness to Putin is not going to make Putin give up the Black Sea seaport access that Ukraine gives him--so easily.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (RJMhd)

183 look since abortion will be funded all will be well. who cares what the rest of the world is up to.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (nqBYe)

184 Is Barak the hunter in the Bear joke?

Posted by: Buzzsaw at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (tf9Ne)

185 Is the EU going to nut up and support the Ukraine? They've got more to win or lose in this situation than the US.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (IoTdl)

186 The best way to 'control' Putin et. al. is to 'drill baby drill'... get the price of a barrel of oil back below $50, and you can really put the screws on their cash flow.

Posted by: Sarah Palin at February 26, 2014 09:15 AM (Q6pxP)

187 The Interpreter ‏@Interpreter_Mag Ukraine Liveblog: Yanukovych in suburban Moscow sanitorium owned by Presidential Administration. http://bit.ly/MufU2x

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 09:16 AM (ZPrif)

188 @154 FDR did increase defense readiness in some areas. But the US lagged behind in every critical area but major capital ships, many of which were sunk at Pearl. Tanks in particular were woefully inadequate and too few in number before our entry into the war. In exercises we used jeeps with "tank" signs.

Posted by: Beagle at February 26, 2014 09:16 AM (sOtz/)

189 wet cut loop. yes, the populace is feeling a little burned. but how far will the fall be for the world? anyway shrug. we really don't have a choice anyway. they do as they do.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:16 AM (nqBYe)

190 At no point did Reagan ever seriously suggest a shooting war with Russia over its satellites and satrapies.

Posted by: ace at February 26, 2014 12:57 PM (/FnUH)
=======
Leaders of nuclear superpowers don't have to seriously suggest anything. We killed Cubans in Grenada and Cubans in Bolivia and Kennedy and the Cuban missile crisis and ... Ronnie in Berlin "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" And the wall came down.

Posted by: mrp at February 26, 2014 09:16 AM (JBggj)

191

It's times like this when Paul the Younger makes my skeptical meter jump. He has his father's isolationist streak in some form and it stubbornly refuses,to make connections in foreign policy.

Just as McCain has seen no country not in need of bombing, the Pauls see no issue that cannot be found wanting on national interest grounds.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 26, 2014 09:17 AM (0Ng0w)

192 did we cede our status as a superpower. -- Willow, our commie organizer in chief believs we live in a post- America world.

Posted by: votermom at February 26, 2014 09:17 AM (YUA9V)

193 OT, but ace, if you're feeling in the mood to put up a non-political sort of post today to break up the DOOOM, may I recommend one of the following: A) The latest "Godzilla" trailer (though I recommend earmuffs to protect your ears from AtC's gleeful screams) or B) The whale bones and "aquatic sloth" story from the side bar Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 26, 2014 01:11 PM (4df7R) A) They're not gleeful screams. They are super high frequency expressions of appreciation for a bit of well accomplished cinema. With, possibly, some flailing. Possibly. B) They're weasels.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 09:17 AM (VtjlW)

194 Are you sitting down? Posted by: weft cut-loop Crap. I so wanted a shirt.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 09:17 AM (CRyse)

195 180 >>>having a strong defense prevents war. Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 01:01 PM (RJMhd) That really only works in cases where we have a credible chance of pursuing military action. I don't think anybody - Putin, the EU, or Americans - thinks there is *any* chance of the US using military force in Ukraine, *especially* not with Obama in charge and *especially* now that we're going back to the bad old days of isolationist-level military readiness. Posted by: Paul at February 26, 2014 01:14 PM (9qDRl) ****** Shit. And then there is that other political axiom that I love-- never, ever bluff. Wow--we are in a really different position these days.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:17 AM (RJMhd)

196 Wait -- what? Why did Yankovitch have to flee to Russia? His song parodies weren't all THAT bad.

Posted by: That SOB van Owen at February 26, 2014 09:18 AM (hhirG)

197 Speaking of Reagan, anyone here in the laser business? The gubmint's looking: http://tinyurl.com/mqwvrp9

Posted by: Country Singer at February 26, 2014 09:18 AM (L8r/r)

198
As I understand it, Paul was just making a small foreign policy suggestion as part of either advice or as part of a future prez run. McCain is just being McCain.

Putin cares what neither thinks or says. He cares what Oblather says or thinks, but he already has that pussy riot pegged.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 26, 2014 09:18 AM (n0DEs)

199 on the other hand. Perhaps it is time those like the EU actually guard their own interests without US to kick around.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:18 AM (nqBYe)

200

I did not know until 30 minutes ago that Crimea is an autonomous republic. It follows Ukrainian law, but it's not really Ukraine.

Also, ethnic Russians and Crimeans are getting into fistfights and the regional parliament has been called into emergency session to explicitly not talk about secession.

So, yeah. Early in the game still.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 26, 2014 09:18 AM (A0sHn)

201 And then Reagan did SDI.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:18 AM (RJMhd)

202 Ukraine Liveblog: Yanukovych in suburban Moscow sanitorium owned by Presidential Administration. http://bit.ly/MufU2x

Posted by: Flatbush Joe

I understand the usage of the term 'sanitarium' here but it's hilarious to think it means the other one.

Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 26, 2014 09:19 AM (xrX4n)

203 Also I hate to say this but all the face saving niceness to Putin is not going to make Putin give up the Black Sea seaport access that Ukraine gives him--so easily. Is Ukraine even making that demand- that Putin give it up?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 26, 2014 09:19 AM (SY2Kh)

204 It would seem to me that the more "primitive" the political culture, the more it understands a punch in the nose (as opposed to an Obama quote about their leader's "schtick"). That being said, we shouldn't say anything unless we intend to back it up. We don't, so we should shut up.

Posted by: ejo at February 26, 2014 09:19 AM (GXvSO)

205 Speaking of Reagan, anyone here in the laser business? The gubmint's looking:

My buddy used to work at Oakridge and wrote the book on lasers there.

Posted by: EC at February 26, 2014 09:20 AM (GQ8sn)

206 The Pax Americana is over.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 26, 2014 09:20 AM (6bMeY)

207 Jack yeah i don't see Putin backing away from Their own interests.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:20 AM (nqBYe)

208 >>>Leaders of nuclear superpowers don't have to seriously suggest anything. We killed Cubans in Grenada and Cubans in Bolivia and Kennedy and the Cuban missile crisis and ... Ronnie in Berlin "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" And the wall came down.

Posted by: mrp at February 26, 2014 01:16 PM (JBggj)

The number one rule of leadership - in your job or in global politics - is to never make a threat you're not ultimately willing to follow through on.

Posted by: Paul at February 26, 2014 09:21 AM (9qDRl)

209 From Interpreter Mag http://bit.ly/MufU2x === 1808 GMT: Here is a report from RBK, one of RussiaÂ’s biggest business reporters. This report came ahead of LifeNewsÂ’ report. The repetition by LifeNews, an agency with widely suspected ties to the FSB and the Russian government, may be taken as further confirmation of the validity of this report. Deposed Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, whose location has not been known in recent days, is in Russia, says a source for RBK who is a major Russian businessman. The information was confirmed by a high-placed Russian official. One of these sources told RBK that Yanukovych arrived in Moscow Tuesday night. According to the source, the deposed president was seen in the Hotel Ukraine (now the Radisson Royal). This was confirmed by a source close to its management (an official representative of the hotel refused to provide information about guests). A group of people spent almost all of Tuesday night until Wednesday morning in a club restaurant on the 11th floor. According to one of the sources, special agents were deployed for this event and heightened measures of security were in place; hotel personnel were not allowed to enter. At the Hotel Ukraine, Yanukovych is not detained, says one of the sources. According to him, the now deposed president of Ukraine is now in Barvikha, site of the Federal State Institution Barvikha Clinical Sanatorium of the Russian presidential administration. Viktor Khrekov, press secretary of Vladimir Kozhin, head of the presidential administration told RBK that he has no such information, and at the sanatorium itself, a spokesman said no such guest has been registered. But the official with whom RBK spoke earlier confirmed that Yanukovych really is located in the suburb of Moscow. The Ukrainian Embassy was unreachable for comment today. Aleksandr Lukashevich, official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry replied to a query from RBK that his office is involved in foreign policy, and not the whereabouts of certain citizens. One of YanukovychÂ’s closest associates, Viktor Pshonka, former prosecutor general of Ukraine, may also be in Moscow. A man who appeared to be him was spotted by an RBK correspondent in the hallway of the Hotel Ukraine on Wednesday morning.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 09:21 AM (ZPrif)

210
A) They're not gleeful screams. They are super high frequency expressions of appreciation for a bit of well accomplished cinema. With, possibly, some flailing. Possibly.

...I'll take it under advisement that this is not a description of someone being "gleeful."

B) They're weasels.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 01:17 PM (VtjlW)

*FOREHEAD SLAP* Of course! What the hell is wrong with me that I'd forget that?

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:21 AM (4df7R)

211 Has Obama said anything about Ukraine lately? I mean there is speaking softly and then there is going full mime mode.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 26, 2014 09:22 AM (g1DWB)

212 Jackstraw He's waiting for polls.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (nqBYe)

213 209 >>>Leaders of nuclear superpowers don't have to seriously suggest anything. We killed Cubans in Grenada and Cubans in Bolivia and Kennedy and the Cuban missile crisis and ... Ronnie in Berlin "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" And the wall came down. Posted by: mrp at February 26, 2014 01:16 PM (JBggj) The number one rule of leadership - in your job or in global politics - is to never make a threat you're not ultimately willing to follow through on. Posted by: Paul at February 26, 2014 01:21 PM (9qDRl) ************ Absolutely correct.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (RJMhd)

214 Has Obama said anything about Ukraine lately? I mean there is speaking softly and then there is going full mime mode.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 26, 2014 01:22 PM (g1DWB)

I think he's too busy catching up on episodes of "House of Cards" and "The Voice."

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/u][/i][/s][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (4df7R)

215 or. If the media doesn't report stuff did it happen? king Obama

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (nqBYe)

216 As someone who spends time in Russia, speaks with Russians daily and has been around long enough to know a thing or two... Putin is exactly the leader Russia needs right now. Russians have been left with a bit of an inferiority complex, so Putin goes out of his way to show he's not going to play an minor role in world politics. Shirtless horse riding works with the Russian people. They are nationalistic, proud and want an equal footing with the U.S. They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that could fuck things up is some Cold War era asshole who needs to rub their nose in their reduced status.

Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (u2a4R)

217
The number one rule of leadership - in your job or in global politics - is to never make a threat you're not ultimately willing to follow through on.
Posted by: Paul at February 26, 2014 01:21 PM (9qDRl)

But Mr. President, what about your red lines???

Posted by: EC at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (GQ8sn)

218 Willow, our commie organizer in chief believs we live in a post- America world. Posted by: voter mom at February 26, 2014 01:17 PM (YUA9V) Votermom, That is the truth! & It really pisses me off the the republicans in the senate & house have made no serious attempt to stop it We cannot be unprepared if someone attacks us & the weaker SCOAMF makes our military the more likely it is that it will happen. What is he going to do? Drop a drone on someone?

Posted by: Carol at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (z4WKX)

219 All of those manly activities I have myself photographed doing are not compensating for anything.

I only like to wear frilly dresses because I am a lady. A pretty, pretty lady.

Posted by: Vladimir He-Man Putin at February 26, 2014 09:23 AM (tv7DV)

220 Shirtless horse riding works with the Russian people. They are nationalistic, proud and want an equal footing with the U.S. They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that could fuck things up is some Cold War era asshole who needs to rub their nose in their reduced status. Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 01:23 PM (u2a4R) uhm yes, say that to the georgians, or move on to those other countries that need Their Pride. hey hey what about Taiwan and China? what of Japan?

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:25 AM (nqBYe)

221 Cold War era asshole? You mean the Cold War, where we nobly assisted many countries in throwing off the yoke of Soviet tyranny? Denigrating the Cold War is, quite frankly, disgusting. Then, propping up Stalin Jr. as just what Russia needs puts the cherry on top.

Posted by: ejo at February 26, 2014 09:26 AM (GXvSO)

222 Beagle, read Neptune's Inferno.

By January PACFLT had three BBs back in service. With Colorado due in February. Plus more BBs from LANTFLT. However in trying to go with the Europe First doctrine of FDR and keep Britain alive, most tankers went to the Atlantic. Which left Nimitz the choice of keeping his carrier task forces fueled or the old battleships. He chose to fuel his carriers, cruisers, and destroyers.

When Operation Watchtower kicked off, PACFLT had been reinforced by the first new built fast battleship, USS North Carolina along with the new AA cruisers like USS Atlanta.

As for the trucks marked tank. You are talking of the Louisiana War Games in 1941. Yes or lumber marked artillery. As a former Sec. of Defense said, "You fight with the Army you got."

Also read the PACFLT war diaries. Think it was on 10 December where they mention the Navy is out of .50 caliber ammo and were trying to salvage such from the sunk ships.

The Arsenal of Democracy was not fully spun up yet. But the plans had already been laid for the Iowa class and Essex class. Fletcher class destroyers were already in the fleet. F4U Corsair was already flying and so was the P-38 and P-47. It just took time.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 26, 2014 09:26 AM (dDf+N)

223 They are nationalistic, proud and want an equal footing with the U.S. They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever. Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 01:23 PM (u2a4R) ============ Okay.

Posted by: grammie winger at February 26, 2014 09:26 AM (oMKp3)

224 anyway fine. let the other powers have control. they do so well with power. so much Better than we. I'm sure things will work out well.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:26 AM (nqBYe)

225
Remember Obama thinks that this nation deserves to be knocked down in the world. He believes we are the beneficiaries not of our own work, but of theft from the rest of the world. Therefore, poorer Americans and a weaker military are all good things.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 26, 2014 09:28 AM (n0DEs)

226 I figure by the year 2120 the U.S. will own and control all of N. and S. America. Russia will own and control all of the former Soviet states plus all of Europe. China will have all of Southeast Asia and the Pacific and a Muslim Caliphate will rule all of Africa. Australia will once again be a penal colony for the world. Should be interesting.

Posted by: madamemayhem at February 26, 2014 09:28 AM (WPm3x)

227 Also I'm on the rag and have the clap. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 01:11 PM (VtjlW)

You mean a scorching case of herpes like Ferris Bueller's sister?

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:28 AM (JpC1K)

228 I use SCIgen to create my political science speeches that you see every day on CSpan. It works great for me, and it'll work for you. See your local Soros representative.

Posted by: Hairy Reed at February 26, 2014 09:28 AM (KQp38)

229 As someone who spends time in Russia, speaks with Russians daily...

Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 01:23 PM (u2a4R)

I'm pretty sure those mail order brides are just telling you what you want to hear.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 26, 2014 09:29 AM (L8r/r)

230 Weasel Zippers ‏@weaselzippers 9m BREAKING: Federal Appeals Court Orders YouTube To Remove Â“Anti-IslamicÂ” Video Obama Admin Blamed Benghazi Attack OnÂ… http://shar.es/FkYY4 The grounds seem to be protection of the actress. The dude took a clip of her and dubbed over a voice calling Muhammad a child molester. The actress never agreed to appear in a movie where she insults Muhammad, she was told the movie was like an Arabian Nights adventure flick. It would really suck to be her and thrown in a religious controversy against your will.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 26, 2014 09:29 AM (ZPrif)

231 Shirtless horse riding works with the Russian people. They are nationalistic, proud and want an equal footing with the U.S. They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that could fuck things up is some Cold War era asshole who needs to rub their nose in their reduced status. Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 01:23 PM (u2a4R) Well bless your heart.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 26, 2014 09:29 AM (VtjlW)

232 The post-America world doesn't harm us as much as it harms the world. When the Pax Americana is over and the bad actors are free to do whatever they want and conquer whoever they want, people will look upon our distant, noncommittal promotion of liberty and human rights as a golden age. People get the governments they deserve. Men like Soros have given us scoundrels, and we let him, but in undermining us, they have unknowingly given themselves over to the bastard princes they've convinced themselves don't exist in their ivory tower echo chambers. We still have oceans dividing us from the worst of the worst... but those who were keenest to destroy us don't have such a luxury. To hell with them, let them reap what they have sown.

Posted by: Cato at February 26, 2014 09:30 AM (OdVTN)

233 The only thing that could fuck things up is some Cold War era asshole who needs to rub their nose in their reduced status. Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 01:23 PM (u2a4R) ************ What you are forgetting is the domestic side of the policy debate. If you see Obama as an extension of FDR and his policies--on the domestic front and then you couple that with the division or tension there has always been entre-- Guns and Butter.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:30 AM (RJMhd)

234 Nood Bush.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 26, 2014 09:31 AM (CRyse)

235 I'm pretty sure those mail order brides are just telling you what you want to hear. Posted by: Country Singer at February 26, 2014 01:29 PM (L8r/r) ********** LOL! Thank you gaia I did not get coffee yet.

Posted by: tasker at February 26, 2014 09:32 AM (RJMhd)

236 We should give all the Ukranians a $25,000 stipend.

Posted by: garrett at February 26, 2014 09:32 AM (zlFsR)

237 Ripped from Drudge: OSCAR VOTER REVEALS BRUTALLY HONEST BALLOT... 'SLAVE Didn't Require Great Courage to Make'... GRAVITY: I've Seen Better Things in Planetariums... Julia Roberts 'Horrendous'... Jared Leto 'Pandering'... Meryl Streep: 'Bottom-drawer performance'... MORE Hahahahaha!

Posted by: Judge Pug at February 26, 2014 09:32 AM (6Nj7A)

238 Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 26, 2014 01:28 PM (n0DEs) Guy Mohawk, The SCOAMF believes these things from his drunken, wife beating, father. What a great man to idolize. I believe his father was in a serious car accident, and lost his legs & he was drunk at the time. I seem to remember that from 2016 the movie. LetÂ’s not forget Frank Marshall Davis & Alinsky also influenced his thinking. IF we could just get the LIVs to read InvestorÂ’s Business Daily editorials they might learn not to vote for an idiot that canÂ’t speak without his teleprompter.

Posted by: Carol at February 26, 2014 09:32 AM (z4WKX)

239 >>They are nationalistic, proud and want an equal footing with the U.S. They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever. Yea, until the oil money runs out. And as someone whose company is based on Russian technology (Soviet actually) and has as its largest investor a Russian I can tell you categorically that Russia remains an incredibly corrupt oligarchy with a touch of capitalistic patina. The fact that so much of their economy and government is based on oil and gas leads them to partner with and support some of our biggest foes. Iran, Syria, etc.. They represent one hell of a big threat to us.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 26, 2014 09:33 AM (g1DWB)

240 I suppose Obama could deliver a speech... That fuckin' guy's speeches make my SCIgen detector go nuts for weeks!

Posted by: Labbé at February 26, 2014 09:33 AM (FcR7P)

241 Shirtless horse riding works with the Russian people. They are nationalistic, proud and want an equal footing with the U.S. They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever.

Da! I was merely the collateral damage on the way to the glorious ~~socialist~~ capitalist future, Comrade!!

For the Rodina!

Posted by: Mikhail Khodorkovsky [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:33 AM (JpC1K)

242 Posted by: garrett at February 26, 2014 01:32 PM (zlFsR) Are you a union teacher? What's with the white hot hatred of vouchers?

Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 09:34 AM (u2a4R)

243 Rand Paul is trying to block Surgeon General nominee but iÂ’m sure that most of the others will confirm the Commie, TFGCare loving gun grabber.

Posted by: Carol at February 26, 2014 09:34 AM (z4WKX)

244 this type of topic is where Jack information bits shines.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:34 AM (nqBYe)

245 Yea, until the oil money runs out. And as someone whose company is based on Russian technology (Soviet actually) and has as its largest investor a Russian I can tell you categorically that Russia remains an incredibly corrupt oligarchy with a touch of capitalistic patina.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 26, 2014 01:33 PM (g1DWB)

Thank you for posting a comment on the ~~Soviets~~ Russians which is based firmly in reality.

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:35 AM (JpC1K)

246 so i am off to eat lucky charms. because. i. can.

Posted by: willow at February 26, 2014 09:35 AM (nqBYe)

247 @207 Yes, Pax Americana is over. But the Mundus Bellum Obama is just getting warmed up. @223 Yeah, in ships and planes Roosevelt, it pains me to say, was foresighted.

Posted by: Beagle at February 26, 2014 09:35 AM (sOtz/)

248 Everyone stand down. Jwest has arrived with the gross oversimplification that will save us.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 26, 2014 09:35 AM (0Ng0w)

249 The US has NO geo-political needs in the Ukraine. Realism dictates that caution be the watchword here. And common sense dictates that the EU be required to sort out its own mess. The Crimea is going to be a part of Russia. Period. End of Story. The only 'dispute' is which other areas in the Eastern Ukraine will join it to make a contiguous Russian sector. And that's not even taking into account the fractious, dysfunctional, state of politics in the Ukrainian areas themselves. And the annoying fact that the country is an economic basket case. I fail to understand why so many here seem interested in getting 'stuck in'. Stuck in to WHAT ? And for WHAT ? It's NONE of your business. Surely there are more than sufficient internal problems that are not being fixed or even discussed to worry about a place no-one even thinks of from one decade to the next.

Posted by: dougf at February 26, 2014 09:36 AM (uJ4Fe)

250 Another quote from the Oscar Voter on drudge.

"Even with its new rules, the documentary category has about as much claim to legitimacy as the Bush-Gore presidential election. It's an incestuous little club. "

The guy is a fucking douche. HTF can one think bringing up Bush-Gore is edgy?

Posted by: Buzzsaw at February 26, 2014 09:37 AM (tf9Ne)

251 Cold War era assholes: Reagan, Thatcher, Walesa, Pope JP II. One could come up with many other names of people that dwarf Putin. Hell, Yeltsin was ten times the man Putin is.

Posted by: ejo at February 26, 2014 09:37 AM (GXvSO)

252 Everyone stand down. Jwest has arrived with the gross oversimplification that will save us. Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 26, 2014 01:35 PM (0Ng0w)

http://tinyurl.com/c62hqt

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:37 AM (JpC1K)

253 "The fact that so much of their economy and government is based on oil and gas leads them to partner with and support some of our biggest foes. Iran, Syria, etc.. " Iran and Syria are customers and suppliers to them. They don't give a shit that some of our embassy workers were held hostage decades ago, it didn't happen to them. In their eyes, we've got a pretty corrupt government based on oil and gas too.

Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 09:37 AM (u2a4R)

254 Fellow Americans, I am just here to be saying I agree that Ukraine is not to be any of our business. It is for Russia. It is for the best. Thank you for the listenings.

Posted by: Russia Strong!! at February 26, 2014 09:38 AM (ZPrif)

255 255-Thank you for your thoughts, fellow American.

Posted by: ejo at February 26, 2014 09:40 AM (GXvSO)

256 Cold War era assholes = people who believe the Cold War is still on.

Posted by: jwest at February 26, 2014 09:40 AM (u2a4R)

257 nood

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/s][/u][/b] at February 26, 2014 09:41 AM (JpC1K)

258 @257 Any theories on which country those shiny new Topol missiles are aimed at?

Posted by: Beagle at February 26, 2014 09:42 AM (sOtz/)

259 It's your turn of phrase, JW. The Cold War era assholes you refer to are giants of history and they were right and accomplished much good, despite people like you.

Posted by: ejo at February 26, 2014 09:44 AM (GXvSO)

260 Brain of a flatworm: Brain capacity of people who think bears are inherently friendly and pose no threat.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 26, 2014 09:45 AM (0Ng0w)

261 So....Romney was right about Russia then?

Posted by: small town girl in wyoming at February 26, 2014 09:48 AM (ImQSs)

262 Ukraine is stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the west, they have the corrupt, socialist, and nanny-state EU, and on the east, they have the corrupt, semi-Fascist, and expansionist Russia of Putin. The EU is almost broke from bailing out failures like Greece, Spain, and Italy. Any cash that may come from that direction will have strings attached. Furthermore, the gas that heats and powers the EU, and which they now can't survive without, since they have bought into the Global Warming scam big time and have shut down much of their coal and nuclear plants, come from...Russia. So Putin has a club to use over the EU, as well.

Seems to me that Ukraine's best option is to try to establish a modus vivendi with Russia that allows them to continue to be an independent country, but with close economic association with Russia. And allow eastern Ukraine as degree of "autonomy" within that country to placate the ethnic Russian population there.

It sucks to be Ukraine right now, and I think Rand Paul realizes that no amount of saber-rattling on the part of the USA is going to fix that situation.

If there is an anti-tyrant uprising going on where U.S. action could make a difference, I'd say look to Venezuela, but I fear Barky's sympathies lie more with the tyrant there.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 26, 2014 09:49 AM (pFqpP)

263 "They've embraced capitalism with a passion and pose no threat whatsoever. " Can we speak literal English instead of Hyperbolic Propaganda? Please? I had not heard they beached all their missile subs and broke up their ICBMs and stopped sending strategic bombers into US airspace. Those are threats. You may think they're just threats, bluff, advantages, diplomatic concessions waiting to be cashed in. You may think there's no way they'd ever follow through on the threat with actual damage. That doesn't remove the threats. Blustering about NO THREAT WHATSOEVER just doesn't work here.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 26, 2014 09:51 AM (5xmd7)

264 Putin is basically a cartoon, it doesn't really matter what you do or say, he's going to do his thing. He's a madman tyrant with a dream of a massive Russian empire, and nothing we do or say makes the slightest difference to that.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 26, 2014 09:52 AM (zfY+H)

265 >>Iran and Syria are customers and suppliers to them. They don't give a shit that some of our embassy workers were held hostage decades ago, it didn't happen to them. They are a hell of a lot more than customers and suppliers. They are key players in Putin's oil and gas strategy which is what fuels his and his countries pockets. It has nothing to do with embassy hostages. Good grief.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 26, 2014 09:53 AM (g1DWB)

266 FDR, ex Navy Secretariat, was all about the Fleet. He was able to let some very fine cost-plus contracts due to a better-than-world-average credit position. We no longer have that advantage. We're in for tough times at sea.

On the Army side, some of Marshall's brother officers, back in the 1920's, were what saved the day. They had a mobilization plan, hidden within very ordinary organization orders, that had been ready to go for years before the 1940 draft. Key personnel (meaning sergeants mostly) from established divisions had merely to step into the new "hollow" divisions, already officered and about to be manned, and get to training. It was a military miracle, and isn't written about that often.

We still have the capacity to enact a readiness plan like that. No one wants a draftee army -- the costs of incompetence have increased as cannon-fodder doctrine has faded -- but a core corps of NG and reservists who have already worked together, serving as framework for units that do no yet exist, would cut the time for a world-war level emergency preparation by a huge factor.

This is the world situation in which we now find ourselves. There is an alternative to woe-and-wellaway. If the imperious and supposedly stuffed-shirt officers of the interwar period could learn from the WWI mobilization and conversion of the old National Guard, to build the army structure that kept us from losing WWII, then the well-educated and perspicacious mid-level officer corps we have now is certainly up to the task of preparing us for the next existential threat.

I would fight to the death to hang onto the nukes, though. Watch this son of a bitch on that. His goal is unilateral nuclear capitulation, and we're well on the way.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at February 26, 2014 09:54 AM (xq1UY)

267 Ironically enough, one thing that may be acting in our favor is that Putin knows we are in the process of drawing down our forces and weakening ourselves. He may think it is in his best interest to let that process continue without doing anything too untoward to reverse that trend until we reach what he judges to be our nadir.

I suspect he will continue to absorb the near abroad piecemeal as he has been doing while stirring up unrest so as to justify the next bite.

Our game is to speak the truth about what is happening, lend what support we can to those who would be free without getting drawn in, and to make sure energy is as cheap as possible since pretty much all of our enemies rely upon it being dear to fund their operations against us. I suspect we could get much more security from a working and practical fusion or thorium reactor than we could out of a few more divisions and we should probably invest as if that were the case.

Posted by: Thatch at February 26, 2014 09:55 AM (qYvEa)

268 Prez Y in Russia? Musta driven there, they wouldn't let him fly.

Posted by: Auntie M at February 26, 2014 10:03 AM (AIC5Z)

269 "Just as McCain has seen no country not in need of bombing, the Pauls see no issue that cannot be found wanting on national interest grounds."

I'm not a fan of Rand, but maybe he's being a realist. Iraq has weakened our hand on what we can do in foreign policy. It sucks that Democrats acted like they did during Bush's presidency, but the war still killed the Republican brand more than anything else.

Posted by: Shoot Me at February 26, 2014 11:02 AM (qiXMt)

270 There is no chance that the One Who Bows will humiliate Putin.

Posted by: gracepmc at February 26, 2014 11:07 AM (rznx3)

271 John McCain shook hands with Ghaddafi, hanged out with Al Qaeda reps in Syria and most recently hugged a Neo-Nazi party leader in Ukraine who vowed to destroy teh Juice. But, he calls "evil" evil. Because, I guess, the only evil in the world is Putin. Cause he's anti-LGBT or something

Posted by: Aristotle at February 26, 2014 11:36 AM (s5l1P)

272 I don't really get the hatred of Putin by US hawks. I understand why Western leftists hate him, but not the hawks. Putin is hardly more socialist than Obama and his admin, is a traditionalist, does not engage in mass murder of people who think differently, protects the freedom of all religions (unlike the US and EU who protect only one religion), successfully fights antisemitism and doesn't blink when push comes to shove. I seriously doubt that authoritarianism is why he's the most evilest evil in the world in the eyes of McCain, a guy who hates Russia so much that he's willing to support Islamofascists in Syria and real deal Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. It's just nonsensical

Posted by: Aristotle at February 26, 2014 11:52 AM (s5l1P)

273 My brother Paul just called me, he is in the hospital again since yesterday. The rehab is supposed to call me when he is sent to the hospital. HeÂ’s got a high fever & a new infection. He has been on antibiotics since February 6 through a pic line. they obviously didnÂ’t work on his infection. I have friend who is having surgery on breast today to remove abnormal cells. She had biopsy & there wasnÂ’t a lump so I donÂ’t know what to expect. A sister of a woman I work with found out over the weekend that she has a brain tumor. She has a seizure & they took her to local hospital & then they airlifted her to a hospital in Boston. SheÂ’s supposed to have tumor removed today. I havenÂ’t spoken with woman at work because she is one that gets historical & cries but not with silent tears, I mean historically sobbing & screaming so much that you canÂ’t understand her. SheÂ’s always acted like that when someone passes, even if itÂ’s someone very old & sick and it was expected.

Posted by: Carol at February 26, 2014 12:50 PM (z4WKX)

274 "does not engage in mass murder of people who think differently," OK but, he does engage in serial murder of people who think differently.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 26, 2014 01:55 PM (5xmd7)

275 I believe you don't actually grasp the meaning of "people who think differently". Some people here suggested the CIA would be right to assassinate Snowden. Not for "thinking differently", I presume

Posted by: Aristotle at February 26, 2014 02:05 PM (s5l1P)

276 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko Also let me know why this friend of US hawks has his bombers in our airspace on a regular basis. Why you would think that would appeal to US hawks I dunno.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 26, 2014 02:49 PM (5xmd7)

277 This is not a list of "people who think differently". This is a smallish list of traitors to the regime who were put down by intelligence services. Do you believe the US was wrong to assassinate Awlaki, an American citizen? Also, I never said Russia is best friends with the US. Interstate rivalry doesn't mean one side is an unholy monster.

Posted by: Aristotle at February 27, 2014 11:29 AM (s5l1P)

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