February 24, 2014

Russia Claims Ukraine in a State of "Armed Mutiny"
— Ace

Mutiny against whom? Russia would like us to take this to mean that Ukraine has risen up in arms against their duly-elected (?) government, and so any group claiming to be the "government" is illegitimate and should not be recognized.

But what it really sounds like is that Ukraine is in "mutiny" against Russian control-- and Russia has no right to control the Ukraine, even if they claim that Ukraine is part of their "family."

Russian PM Medvedev said:

“If you consider Kalashnikov-toting people in black masks who are roaming Kiev to be the government, then it will be hard for us to work with that government."

Yulia Tymoschenko has been released from jail after being held for two and a half years on charges generally called "trumped up" and "political." While this recent jailing seems corrupt and, well, Soviet, a writer at the Daily Beast says that prior charges of corruption had merit.

While it's great that she has been released from jail, I'm not sure she's the best candidate to lead the opposition forces.

Tymoshenko was not universally welcomed by the protesters. Many point the finger at her for the chaos of the post Orange revolution years in Ukraine and accuse her of corruption while in power.

“We’re afraid of experiencing a repetition of Julia’s first attempt to lead the government a decade ago. Of course, she can say all those nice things but actions speak louder than words. Everybody at the top enriched themselves and all we got was nothing,” explained one protester.

Her run as Prime Minister occurred at a bad time -- 2007-2010, just as the global credit meltdown was occurring, and persisting -- and her term is generally thought to have been a failure. She lost an election for President in 2010 to Yanukovich, the current "president," who may not be so currently president any longer.

From the Hot Air link (first link of the post):

Meanwhile, the new government in Kyiv has transferred presidential power to the speaker of the parliament until elections can be held in May. They have issued an arrest warrant for deposed president Viktor Yanukovich, who tried to flee the country but was stopped by alert border guards. Activists want him tried for mass murder after 82 protesters died in shootings by police last week...

The most important thing to Russia seems to be the Crimea -- which sports a warm-water port on the Black Sea, and is over 55% Russian by ethnicity. Crimea is part of Ukraine, and the part Russia seems most determined to hold on to. Ethnic Russians in Crimea are girding themselves to fight their own counter-revolution to remain under the Russian heel.

[W]hen the forces of the revolution took over the national parliament on Friday, pledging to rid Ukraine of Russian influence and integrate with Europe, the people of Crimea panicked. Some began to form militias, others sent distress calls to the Kremlin. And if the officers of the Berkut riot police are now despised throughout the rest of the country for killing dozens of protesters in Kiev this week, they were welcomed in Crimea as heroes.

For Ukraine’s revolutionary leaders, that presents an urgent problem. In a matter of days, their sympathizers managed to seize nearly the entire country, including some of the most staunchly pro-Russian regions of eastern Ukraine. But they have made barely any headway on the Crimean peninsula. On the contrary, the revolution has given the ethnic Russian majority in Crimea their best chance ever to break away from Kiev’s rule and come back under the control of Russia. “An opportunity like this has never come along,” says Tatyana Yermakova, the head of the Russian Community of Sevastopol, a civil-society group in Crimea.

Although one quarter of Crimea's populace are Ukrainian, I think the best option here is to either cede Crimea to Russia, or, more likely, permit the fiction that Crimea is now an "independent state" which just happens to host one of Russia's biggest naval ports and 25,000 Russian troops.

There would be some ethnic sorting after such a partition -- Russia-identifying Ukrainians would tend to move towards a Russia-controlled Crimean satrapy, and ethnic Ukrainians would tend to move away from Crimea to a Ukrainian-controlled Ukraine.

It is better than war. Russia recently fought a war to keep a key part of Georgia:

Though the Kremlin has not yet responded to her plea for help, Russia used a similar appeal as a pretext for the land invasion of South Ossetia, a breakaway region of Georgia, in 2008. That August, Russia claimed that the people of South Ossetia were at risk of genocide when the Georgian military tried to take control of the rebel region by force. Russia responded by sending in its tanks, and after a weeklong war, it seized a fifth of GeorgiaÂ’s territory, including all of South Ossetia.

And, of course, neither NATO nor the EU nor Obama is going to war with Russia over the Crimea. Any impulse for "toughness" must be tempered by this obvious fact-- very few people would support any kind of US action against Russia in Crimea. So, we can't really pretend that there is some 100%-win solution out there, if only we had the guts for it.

I don't see any way Ukraine keeps Crimea, if Russia wants to take it away. What I see is an invasion, and lots of dead Ukrainians, and Russia holding on to the Crimea -- and, given that they've already invaded one part of Ukraine, I see them maybe invading the whole of it.


Posted by: Ace at 06:50 AM | Comments (366)
Post contains 948 words, total size 6 kb.

1 alksdjf?

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 24, 2014 06:53 AM (VjL9S)

2 So in short, Ukraine is    about to go from an immediate,   contemporary clusterfuck, to a long-term,   extended clusterfuck.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 06:54 AM (4df7R)

3 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at February 24, 2014 06:55 AM (PYAXX)

4 Who cares, this is Russia and Ukraine's problem.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 06:55 AM (HuRpn)

5 Tiresome troll is tiresome.

Posted by: steevy at February 24, 2014 06:56 AM (zqvg6)

6 My friends, we are all Crimeans now.

Posted by: Senator John McCain at February 24, 2014 06:56 AM (Aif/5)

7 I have so little real power in Putin's Russia that Ace doesn't know my name. Now I feel really bad. First Ukraine and now this.

Posted by: russian prime minister medvedev at February 24, 2014 06:56 AM (Eiwo7)

8 Anyway, I'm sure another high-powered injection of Obaaama's 100% Pure and Improved Smart Diplomacy will save the day.

Either that or the JEF will FUBAR it up just like every other world event.

Looks like we're in for another speech with a highly dramatic pivot to [insert domestic issue manufactured by the media/Dems] . . . .

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 24, 2014 06:57 AM (VjL9S)

9 Obviously this is the best time to decimate our military strength to pre-World War II lows.

Posted by: Chuck Hagel at February 24, 2014 06:57 AM (GSIDW)

10 The problem is,the Russians are unlikely to be satisfied with just the Crimea.They want to whole country securely under their thumb.

Posted by: steevy at February 24, 2014 06:57 AM (zqvg6)

11 @ 6 McCain would love for this country to get in a war with Russia.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 06:57 AM (HuRpn)

12 Amazing how the quest for good powerful government always ends in corruption and looting by the people at the top. It's almost like limiting government and separating powers is the last best hope for mankind. Almost. THIS TIME I'm sure the right strongman will do the right thing.

Posted by: Beagle at February 24, 2014 06:58 AM (sOtz/)

13 Julia? Never heard of her.

Posted by: president o'bumbles at February 24, 2014 06:58 AM (Eiwo7)

14 I have been reading as much of this as I can. One of the immediate problems is financial - Ukraine needs lots of dough. That is why Putin was able to get Ukraine out of the deal with the EU; he offered lots of cash. Where does the money come from now - will the West (almost certainly meaning the US) provide it. I doubt Obama would do that. It would mean supporting pro-western freedom fighters - he doesn't seem so inclined. It would also mean crossing Putin which also doesn't seem in the cards. I'm not sure what ceding Crimea would mean economically (long-term), but that's certainly something any new gov't would have to consider. I think claims of victory for the pro-western faction are at least premature. How far will Putin go to turn things and who would stop him? I'm sure he understands it would not be the US.

Posted by: duke at February 24, 2014 06:58 AM (d3clc)

15 I see the Maroon is back.
Thank Gawd for "ignore...."

Posted by: backhoe at February 24, 2014 06:58 AM (ULH4o)

16 @ 10 If Russia wants the whole Ukraine, how will this effect your life?

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 06:58 AM (HuRpn)

17 Unattended child in Aisle 4.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 24, 2014 06:58 AM (sLGZD)

18 Any impulse for "toughness" must be tempered by this obvious fact-- very few people would support any kind of US action against Russia in Crimea. So, we can't really pretend that there is some 100%-win solution out there, if only we had the guts for it. I've given up on the notion of a tough US - the US isn't tough. It's profligate and comfort-obsessed.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 06:59 AM (MVGKx)

19 No Muslim Brotherhood? Meh, local news story.

Posted by: Barry McFuckstick at February 24, 2014 06:59 AM (FcR7P)

20 Longbows vs. Crossbows : Palin vs. Tymoschenko.

Posted by: Mainah at February 24, 2014 06:59 AM (659DL)

21 Putin can do what ever he wants. No one will stop him. obama is impudent. The EU needs Russian energy and is also impudent. So what ever Putin decides in his best interest will be done. And so we wait

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 06:59 AM (t3UFN)

22 See ya Crimea, wouldn't want to be ya...

Posted by: runningrn at February 24, 2014 07:00 AM (o6g4X)

23 Love life = Hector/Random/etc.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:00 AM (MVGKx)

24 8?
Royal Oil?

I think "smart-ass diplomacy" it the better term for Duh!1's blunders.

Posted by: backhoe at February 24, 2014 07:00 AM (ULH4o)

25 Russia is not in the best economic health.A military campaign now will make things worse.

Posted by: steevy at February 24, 2014 07:00 AM (zqvg6)

26 Some good tactical lessons for the US right there in Ukraine.

Posted by: maddogg at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (xWW96)

27 I'm still peeved with myself for not knowing that Vitali Klitschko was one of the opposition leaders. I knew he was Ukranian and I knew he'd become very politically active. That penny just didn't drop until I saw a specific reference to his involvement. Duh. So, we can't really pretend that there is some 100%-win solution out there, if only we had the guts for it. Yup. I don't see any play that doesn't have far more down side than upside. That being said, I'm sticking with my if Putin is for it, I'm against it rule of thumb. That seems as good a barometer as any to use.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (VtjlW)

28 Just for the Horde's reference, a map of Ukraine: http://preview.tinyurl.com/lphsovq

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (RD7QR)

29 Yeah who cares about this!!! I want a ghey pron post stat!!!

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (Aif/5)

30 @ 18 Why do you want a war with Russia? Is it to usher in the burning times you wish for?

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (HuRpn)

31 Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne!

Posted by: John McCain at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (MVGKx)

32

Tymoshenko is a hot blonde, so that makes up for a lot.

 

Seriously though, it was interesting seeing the contrast between her,  an actual accomplished woman,  and Hillary Clinton.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:01 AM (PFy0L)

33

Palin vs. Tymoschenko

 

Prison was not kind to Yulia.  She was a hottie ten years ago.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (A0sHn)

34 How about a European army to the Ukraine to secure it from Russian aggression while they negotiate the status of the Crimea?HaHaHaHaHaHa

Posted by: steevy at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (zqvg6)

35

"The most important thing to Russia seems to be the Crimea -- which sports a warm-water port on the Black Sea, and is over 55% Russian by ethnicity."

 

 

Sevestapol is not just a port, it is a major fleet base and home to the Black Sea Fleet.  Losing Sevestapol would be like the USN losing Pearl Harbor.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - KaBoom- The Cereal of Settling Now at the Outrage Outlet at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (hLRSq)

36 30 @ 18 Why do you want a war with Russia? Is it to usher in the burning times you wish for? I don't want one, Hector. I think we should set our troops to the task of securing our southern border.

Posted by: John McCain at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (MVGKx)

37 Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 11:01 AM (PFy0L) And at least one of them is a criminal!

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (o3MSL)

38 Uruguayan and Colombian legal immigrants like my two wives will turn around the Russian and Ukrainian economies!

Posted by: hector's dick at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (Eiwo7)

39 Sock off.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:03 AM (MVGKx)

40 If Russia wants the whole Ukraine, how will this effect your life? Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 10:58 AM (HuRpn) Clearly the Russians have already stolen your verbs. How's that working out for you?

Posted by: Beagle at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (sOtz/)

41 Fuck the EU.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (6bMeY)

42 Unattended child in Aisle 4.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 24, 2014 10:58 AM (sLGZD)



Are you lost, little boy?  I'll help you find your parents!  Let's get in my van and we'll drive around...




Posted by: Harry Reid at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (GQ8sn)

43 I think we should tell Serbian jokes now.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (MVGKx)

44 Russia itself may break apart.

Posted by: steevy at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (zqvg6)

45 You silly nativists, I've got to go to the gym and then pick up my Colombian super model wife from preschool. Ttyl.

Posted by: Hector, Troof a Teller and Full of Fax at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (Aif/5)

46 Our economy sucks and we have soft dictator as a leader. Who cares about the Ukraine?

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (HuRpn)

47

Oh good grief.   (Eimoe) is back as (HuRpn).  Excuse me while I get violently ill on a passing rapist.

 

Ignore the troll, folks. 

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:04 AM (4df7R)

48 Who cares, this is Russia and Ukraine's problem.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 10:55 AM (HuRpn)

 

 

It is amazing how 'someone else's problem' can quickly spill over and become 'everyone else's problem'.  Concern for and trying to keep bed things from spreading is taking one's long term interests into account.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - KaBoom- The Cereal of Settling Now at the Outrage Outlet at February 24, 2014 07:05 AM (hLRSq)

49 My mom left me alone in the basement. The lights don't work.

Posted by: Low Life at February 24, 2014 07:05 AM (sLGZD)

50 One of My Docs in my Unit was on lone to the Ukraine Navy last summer for a few weeks. I spoke to her briefly yesterday but then we got busy

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 07:05 AM (t3UFN)

51 @ 44 You are fantasizing.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:05 AM (HuRpn)

52 Ahhhh!  Another Northern Ireland in the making!

Posted by: Lost In Maryland at February 24, 2014 07:06 AM (CDGl8)

53 Unattended child in Aisle 4. Give him a puppy, two espressos & send him home.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 24, 2014 07:06 AM (h1D+w)

54

Who cares, this is Russia and Ukraine's problem.

 

-----------

 

I think your apathy is borne of ignorance.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:06 AM (PFy0L)

55 My shift at the glory hole doesn't start for another six hours and I'm bored.

Posted by: Loves Life at February 24, 2014 07:06 AM (Aif/5)

56 Have no fear.
Our most respected Presentdent certainly has a plan.
And a back-up plan.


Perhaps this is one of the days I would prefer that Barky just sleep in late, then spend the day on the links.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 24, 2014 07:06 AM (NHZpR)

57 Prison was not kind to Yulia. She was a hottie ten years ago. Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 24, 2014 11:03 AM (A0sHn) Yeah, I noticed that, too.

Posted by: Mainah at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (659DL)

58 This is no more important than some obscure archduke getting shot.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (6bMeY)

59 @ 48 We have no interests in the Ukraine. Venezuela on the other hand is really a situation were we can make a difference.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (HuRpn)

60 I can most certainly pretend thetr are perfect solutions requiring simply balls or restraint. Barack Obama himself played that game righ up until 2009.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (fTFgT)

61 I spoke to her briefly yesterday but then we got busy

Hawt.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (t8ySh)

62 Geez, Love Life, could you at least concentrate all your stupid in one long post?

Posted by: Beagle at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (sOtz/)

63 I think we should tell Serbian jokes now. Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 11:04 AM (MVGKx) "Any Serbians here? Because I want to tell an ethnic Serbian joke but I don't want to offend anyone at all these days. OK, so no Serbians, now everyone knows how slow Serbians are, right? So one day a Serbian walks into a bar... Voice from the back: Hay wait a minute, I'm Serbian! Try the veal!

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (o3MSL)

64 The Ukraine is also home to the world famous Crimea River.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (PFy0L)

65 I expect da Zero views happenings in Ukraine much like Hector. With the same interest.

Posted by: maddogg at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (xWW96)

66 Uzbeks. The weak link in the great chain of Socialism!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4nk5mSz_2s

Posted by: CCCP1 television at February 24, 2014 07:07 AM (Eiwo7)

67 @ 54 I don't care about the Ukraine, that is Russia's problem.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:08 AM (HuRpn)

68 Let's not forget my glOrious leader has been trying to denuke. At least he was successful in blocking Poland's nuclear shield. All part of the One's plan for glorious retreat from the world stage.

Posted by: Chuck Hagel at February 24, 2014 07:08 AM (GSIDW)

69 So is that where crime came from?

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:08 AM (6bMeY)

70 59 @ 48 We have no interests in the Ukraine. Venezuela on the other hand is really a situation were we can make a difference. Is your wife from Venezuela now?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:08 AM (MVGKx)

71 Yeah events in Eastern Europe really do not concern you guys.

Posted by: Zombie Franz Ferdinand at February 24, 2014 07:08 AM (Aif/5)

72 Although one quarter of Crimea's populace are Ukrainian, I think the best option here is to either cede Crimea to Russia, or, more likely, permit the fiction that Crimea is now an "independent state" which just happens to host one of Russia's biggest naval ports and 25,000 Russian troops. Which is exactly what Putin wants. No more, no less.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (T0NGe)

73
very few people would support any kind of US action against Russia in Crimea.




Sen. John "Pew Pew Pew" McCain went to the Ukraine last year to bond with the protesters, as he is wont to do.  So pencil him into the "do something" camp.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (kdS6q)

74 Can't we just hit the 'RESET' button a few more times ?  Where did Hillary leave it ?

Posted by: McCool at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (nCSwS)

75 I think most of those guys are Slavo.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (6bMeY)

76 Oh good grief. (Eimoe) is back as (HuRpn). HuRpn be derpin'.

Posted by: t-bird at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (FcR7P)

77 Don't cry for me Crimea. The truth is I never loved you.

Posted by: Ukraine at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (g1DWB)

78

Excuse me while I get violently ill on a passing rapist.

 

Better to shoot them.  Of course, according to that Austin cop, cops in other cities are rapin' everybody up in there, so...

Posted by: Insomniac at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (DrWcr)

79 58 This is no more important than some obscure archduke getting shot. Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 11:07 AM (6bMeY) That's what I said.

Posted by: Gavrilo Princip at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (sLGZD)

80 Get it dummies, don't invade Ukraine, invade Venezuela! It'll be like call of duty Ghosts!

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:09 AM (Aif/5)

81 I grew up with a lot of first-gen Ukrainians living in the Chicago area, as well as a fair number of Poles. I'm generally sympathetic to these groups given their experiences with Russian tyranny. I wonder if Obama, a fellow "Chicagoan," is hearing from his old friends in Ukrainian Village and the Southwest side.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at February 24, 2014 07:10 AM (Ec6wH)

82 Geez, Love Life, could you at least concentrate all your stupid in one long post?

Posted by: Beagle at February 24, 2014 11:07 AM (sOtz/)

 

 

It finds it impossible to express itself in more than two sentences at a   time.   When it tries, it loses that faux veneer of politeness    that it generates through    the     use of passive voice.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:10 AM (4df7R)

83 Thank Gawd for "ignore...." is there one of those for Chrome?

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at February 24, 2014 07:10 AM (PYAXX)

84 That's what I said. Posted by: Gavrilo Princip at February 24, 2014 11:09 AM (sLGZD) Not to worry, those kind of things only happen once a century!

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 24, 2014 07:10 AM (o3MSL)

85

I don't care about the Ukraine, that is Russia's problem.

 

-------------

 

It's clear *you* don't care, but that's because you're acting like a bumblefuck ignoramus.

 

And "Russia's problem?"  How, exactly?  Ukraine is sovereign. 

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:10 AM (PFy0L)

86

HuRpn

 

Now there's Acyclovir.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 24, 2014 07:10 AM (DrWcr)

87 In Ukraine, Ukraine Ukraines Ukraine!

Posted by: Backof, Smirnof at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (2oU2+)

88 Although one quarter of Crimea's populace are Ukrainian, I think the best option here is to either cede Crimea to Russia, or, more likely, permit the fiction that Crimea is now an "independent state" which just happens to host one of Russia's biggest naval ports and 25,000 Russian troops.
=======
Ukraine and Russia will sort it out as they wish.  Barry's promises and good offices are at a deep discount in chancelleries around the world.  Add to that the continued hollowing-out of our defense establishment (delaying the F-35 roll-out?  Mothballing cruisers?)  for the sake of funding Obamacare and other failed domestic programs doesn't help, either.  What we need are more F-22s, not more Munichs.

Posted by: mrp at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (JBggj)

89 This is no more important than some obscure archduke getting shot.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 11:07 AM (6bMeY)

 

 

Just a squabble far away amongst people we know little about.  How could that ever impact us?  Why should we show concern when we have so many more pressing issues at home?

 

/sarc

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Winter of Discontent will End! The Flowers of Fury will be here for Spring Planting at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (hLRSq)

90 84 You know, it's a new century.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (6bMeY)

91 80 Get it dummies, don't invade Ukraine, invade Venezuela! It'll be like call of duty Ghosts! Let's invade both! Yeooow Chuga-chuga-chuga Ka-Ploosh!

Posted by: John McCain at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (MVGKx)

92 HuRpn be derpin'.

 

Posted by: t-bird at February 24, 2014 11:09 AM (FcR7P)

 

I think it's funny that  its hash, when said aloud, sounds like someone worshiping at the ceramic altar.

 

 

"Oh man, I don't even remember    eating shrimp.      HURRRRRPN!"

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (4df7R)

93 Well, my friends.  I think it is obvious to everyone we need to send troops into Ukraine immediately.

Posted by: John McCain at February 24, 2014 07:11 AM (Z7PrM)

94 Give them Crimea. Odessa is a perfectly good port. (See my map link.) Give ethnic Russians in Ukraine and option to emigrate. Don't give Vlad a chance to show his fraternal Slavic brotherliness, aka run an armored division into Kyiv. Then the EU can cough up the bucks to fix Ukraine's financial woes and they can pull away from Russia's anti-EU.

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (RD7QR)

95 I agree, John!

Posted by: Miss Lindsey Graham at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (Z7PrM)

96 Don't worry John Kerry will sort this all out. Â…..as soon as he blots that ketchup stain out of his ascot

Posted by: ontherocks at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (Qxl+E)

97 @ 70 My wife from Venezuela? What kind of question is that? That nation is the #2 supplier of oil to the US. It is under a hostile regime, hence the protests are in our interest. You probably are just interested in the Ukraine becasue they are white and Venezuelans are not.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (HuRpn)

98 Let me clarify something.
To suggest that Barky keep his dick skinners off the strings of world policy does not mean that I wish the situation to be ignored.

I simply recognize Barky's highly refined, and very effective Reverse Midas Touch.

If we stay remote from it, the situation may go to shit.
If Barky gets involved, it will go to shit.
We need a leader.
Barky ain't it.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (NHZpR)

99
Venezuela on the other hand is really a situation were we can make a difference.
Posted by: Love Life (Hector)

Is your wife from Venezuela now?
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at




We'll, she's got some Venezuelan in her -- IYKWIM....

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (kdS6q)

100 Look don't feed the troll. Just get once of the Bosses here to block it.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (t3UFN)

101 Seems like an excellent time to cut our military back to pre-WWII levels. What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (g1DWB)

102 A President who had a clue on foreign policy would use the carrot of loans and any of the variety of sticks at our disposal to "encourage" true Classical Liberalism in Ukraine. Unfortunately, we have President Erkle.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (PYAXX)

103 *yawn* Ukraine? Who cares? Is the NBA ont TV tonight?

Posted by: da Zero at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (xWW96)

104 67 @ 54 I don't care about the Ukraine, that is Russia's problem. Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 11:08 AM (HuRpn) Hey great, we can all sleep better now. We were all waiting to see how you felt. What a relief.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 24, 2014 07:12 AM (sLGZD)

105 I have some real detailed thoughts on how to achieve peace in our time that John Kerry could benefit from!

Posted by: Zombie N Chamberlin at February 24, 2014 07:13 AM (o3MSL)

106 The administration's foreign policy is a cycle of stupid. With apologies to Ambassador Powers.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 07:13 AM (T0NGe)

107 I dunno, but it certainly seems like a bunch of armed toughs just overthrew  the, yes, elected government of the Ukraine.

I know that this complicates things, but I find the overall Orwell-light movement to recast the Ukraine as a brutal dictatorship (as opposed to a corrupt democracy) and the Maidan toughs as "peaceful protesters" troubling.

After all these years preaching "democracy" to the world, the west increasingly seems to define "democracy" as being synonymous with the demonstration-riot-hybrid solution that is increasingly popular in both Europe and Asia as a substitute for actual, well, elections.

In the long run, this risks discrediting the concept of democracy itself.

Posted by: Mehl at February 24, 2014 07:13 AM (PlVMn)

108 And there goes Hector, showing his racist colors again.  *sigh*   It does get old.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:13 AM (4df7R)

109 @ 94 The European Union is Socialist and evil.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:13 AM (HuRpn)

110 If we stay remote from it, the situation may go to shit. If Barky gets involved, it will go to shit. We need a leader. Barky ain't it. --- This. A thousand times this.

Posted by: Chuck Hagel at February 24, 2014 07:14 AM (GSIDW)

111

You probably are just interested in the Ukraine becasue they are white and Venezuelans are not.

 

----------

 

Well, now you're just making shit up.

 

20 minutes in and you're already calling people racist?  Quite the hair trigger you have there.

 

At least, that's what your Venezuelan wife said.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:14 AM (PFy0L)

112 >>You probably are just interested in the Ukraine becasue they are white and Venezuelans are not. A lot of us are interested in Venezuela but the msm refuses to report on troubles in the socialist paradise, dummy. I wonder why?

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 07:14 AM (g1DWB)

113 >>>Which is exactly what Putin wants. No more, no less.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 11:09 AM (T0NGe)

 

Actually Putin wants the whole country to sign up for his "Eurasian Union". That's probly not going to happen unless Russia invades and sets up a client government, then garrisons the whole country to prevent that from getting overthrown. The Crimea would be a consolation prize.

Posted by: Paul at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (9qDRl)

114 74 Can't we just hit the 'RESET' button a few more times ? Where did Hillary leave it ? Posted by: McCool at February 24, 2014 11:09 AM (nCSwS) She overcharged it.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (T0NGe)

115 The Ukraine is also home to the world famous Crimea River.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 11:07 AM (PFy0L)

 

*****

 

Nice!

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (lHb9q)

116 Has anyone here actually advocated the use of military force in Ukraine? Given the long-standing Russian tradition of arming anyone nearby who hates us, the plan of action is obvious.

Posted by: Beagle at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (sOtz/)

117 In the long run, this risks discrediting the concept of democracy itself. Democracy is turned a bit stale. Try the Republic! Count me in as a huge fan of anti-government uprisings. Entrenched states need turnover. It's a sociological need.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (Ec6wH)

118 @ 107 Mehl You are the only person here observing this rationally. Everyone else around here has some anti-Russian orgasm over this.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (HuRpn)

119 off sock

Posted by: maddogg at February 24, 2014 07:15 AM (xWW96)

120 We should just offer them Obamacare cause people love that shit.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (g1DWB)

121 Actually Putin wants the whole country to sign up for his "Eurasian Union". Not that he wouldn't mind. But he's the guy negotiating for a $5000 raise by asking for $10000.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (T0NGe)

122 I have small peen. I also haz sad.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (Aif/5)

123 All trolls are Average Joe, who savors the male sex organ. Also, even a troll wouldn't go over to accusations of racism that quickly.

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (RD7QR)

124 Given the long-standing Russian tradition of arming anyone nearby who hates us, the plan of action is obvious.


Eric Holder needs to make just one phone call....


Posted by: EC at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (GQ8sn)

125 83?
AllenG?

I have no idea- one of the Horde put me on a link to Greasemonkey and a script that works for AOS in firefox a year or two ago.

It does make life here a lot more enjoyable- I do not suffer fools gladly. Might be worth a websearch for you.

Posted by: backhoe at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (ULH4o)

126 Jugears will steer clear of this, this is not Syria where Putin bitch slapped him, it's on Putin's front lawn.

Posted by: ontherocks at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (Qxl+E)

127 Unattended child in Aisle 4. Give him a puppy, two espressos & send him home. Posted by: rickb223 at February 24, 2014 11:06 AM (h1D+w) Heh. I was thinking the same thing. Oh good grief. (Eimoe) is back as (HuRpn). Excuse me while I get violently ill on a passing rapist. Ignore the troll, folks. Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 24, 2014 11:04 AM (4df7R) I believe this sums up the Horde's reaction nicely: http://bit.ly/1gwLp5v

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (VtjlW)

128 You probably are just interested in the Ukraine becasue they are white and Venezuelans are not. Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 11:12 AM (HuRpn) How far off the stupid scale are you going today? We'd kinda like to know this in advance.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (sLGZD)

129 How about we reduce the number of Federal employees to pre World War 2 levels instead?

Posted by: Chuck Hagel's alter ego at February 24, 2014 07:16 AM (GSIDW)

130 >>>I have so little real power in Putin's Russia that Ace doesn't know my name. Now I feel really bad. First Ukraine and now this. hah. Corrected.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (/FnUH)

131 @ 112 The media loves the regime in Venezuela.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (HuRpn)

132

I know that this complicates things, but I find the overall Orwell-light movement to recast the Ukraine as a brutal dictatorship (as opposed to a corrupt democracy) and the Maidan toughs as "peaceful protesters" troubling.

 

Ditto, which is why I'm taking the observational route.  I don't particularly care for either side in this conflict, and I don't trust one word that's coming out of the media reports from the region.  There's just too much we don't know. 

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (4df7R)

133 We can't stretch ourselves across the world to play global cop. We can't always insert ourselves in these kinds of squabbles simply because it violates our sensibilities regarding proper government.

Posted by: TK-421 at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (T8A5i)

134
   Any solution has to include Russia retaining their blue water port.   Putin is NOT going to let that go.

    Ceding Crimea looks to be the better option, as you mentioned, Ace.

    Anything else will just incur bloodshed and a bad outcome for the Ukraine.

Posted by: irongrampa at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (SAMxH)

135 I bet they're just shakin' in their boots.... ‏@piersmorgan 1h I wouldn't get too excited @NRA - I'm not done with you yet. #GunControlNow

Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/u][/s] at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (bCEmE)

136 Eventually Russia will get a Euromaidan of it's own. Just a matter of time.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:17 AM (ZPrif)

137 Wouldn't take a huge expeditionary force to make a difference there.
A Light Brigade ought to do it.
Plus a few allies. Not the whole UN. Just half a league.


Posted by: Al Fred Lord Tennis Who? at February 24, 2014 07:18 AM (xq1UY)

138 You probably are just interested in the Ukraine becasue they are white and Venezuelans are not. That's half-hearted, Hector. Hurl the 'nativist scum' epithet. It's the only entertaining thing you do.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:18 AM (X9npt)

139 Love Life, I was willing to permit you to make your point (if you had one) but of course you have become a repetitive, insulting troll with nothing to say. You felt compelled to make a "racist" claim, apparently ignoring the fact that Venezeula was covered here as well, and commenters were just as sympathetic to their plight. For these reasons, and just for the sin of being another sociopathic troll asshole, you're banned.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 07:18 AM (/FnUH)

140 Venezuelans aren't white? That sounds like racism to me.

Posted by: hector's dick at February 24, 2014 07:18 AM (Eiwo7)

141
Speaking of "Tail Gunner John", he did lay down a marker on the Sunday chat shows:

Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain said the United States needs to be clear with Putin that Ukrainians must be allowed to determine their own future and that partitioning the nation would be unacceptable.




Next up, Marines to The Republic of West Ukraine -- but just as advisors.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 07:18 AM (kdS6q)

142

FWIW ... and that ain't much ... I'm for keeping out of this for a multitude if reasons ;

 

1 - Barry will only make it worse there.

2 - Barry will use it as a pretext to seize more power here.

3 - We already spread too thin.

4 - We're broke.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 24, 2014 07:19 AM (SXji2)

143

I believe this sums up the Horde's reaction nicely:


http://bit.ly/1gwLp5v

 

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 24, 2014 11:16 AM (VtjlW)

 

 

*snigger*  So true.

 

 

Also, even a troll wouldn't go over to accusations of racism that quickly.

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 11:16 AM (RD7QR)

 

(HuRpn)'s    a racist himself, which is why he immediately declares anyone who    doesn't slavishly   agree with his stupidity a racist.   

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:19 AM (4df7R)

144 For these reasons, and just for the sin of being another sociopathic troll asshole, you're banned.


Ace, I can't believe you forgot:  "But first you will blow me!"


Come on!!!!!!

Posted by: EC at February 24, 2014 07:19 AM (GQ8sn)

145

"They are alligning themselves to repress those who are not in agreement with the dictatorial and at times terroristic methods in various parts of Ukraine", the Russian forein ministry said on Monday.  "The new government in Kiev is based on revolutionary interests, who are passing new laws to injure the human rights of Russians".

 

That's from the FAZ, so Russia is not much pleased.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 24, 2014 07:19 AM (A0sHn)

146 @ 111 I have no ties to Venezuela, so I don't know where you are getting the bit about me having a wife from that country. My interest stems to them being in the Americas, geographically close, they supply us oil and the protestors are legitimately good guys.

Posted by: Love Life at February 24, 2014 07:19 AM (HuRpn)

147 Maidan does have a troubling resemblance to Tahrir Square & other Arab Spring events - and most of those did not end up in "yay! democracy!" Very rare for armed revolt not to end up with worse oppression; praying Ukraine gets it right.

Posted by: Chuck Hagel's alter ego at February 24, 2014 07:19 AM (GSIDW)

148 "I have no idea- one of the Horde put me on a link to Greasemonkey and a script that works for AOS in firefox a year or two ago."

This ^^^^

But there was a script that actually gave the user a "Quote" button on their FF browser while at AoS.

THAT'S the one that I want back.

I lost it somewhere during a boating accident.
Or maybe during a computer crash that I went through.
I have GreaseMonkey re-loaded, but I can't find the script for the Quote button.

Anyone?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 24, 2014 07:20 AM (NHZpR)

149 Thanks, ace.

Posted by: backhoe at February 24, 2014 07:20 AM (ULH4o)

150 For these reasons, and just for the sin of being another sociopathic troll asshole, you're banned.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 11:18 AM (/FnUH)


You the man, ace. Here, have my Valu-Rite.

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 07:20 AM (RD7QR)

151 Ooops, sock off

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 07:20 AM (GSIDW)

152 Next up, Marines to The Republic of West Ukraine -- but just as advisors.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 11:18 AM (kdS6q)



Interesting you say that.

Posted by: EC at February 24, 2014 07:20 AM (GQ8sn)

153 Speaking of trolls, did anybody think that Mooch using the term "knuckleheads" on Fallon's dogshit show means that she might be erg?

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (+ywjg)

154

Hurran for the TB3K!

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (4df7R)

155 But if we invade Ukraine, Iron Maiden can right another awesome song about Crimea!

Posted by: Lindsey Graham at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (Aif/5)

156 I have so little real power in Putin's Russia that Ace doesn't know my name. Now I feel really bad. First Ukraine and now this. hah. Corrected. ISWYDT. *Golf. Clap.*

Posted by: rickb223 at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (h1D+w)

157 Pussy Riot is winning. The fact that Putin doesn't feel fee to just kill them is telling. The Interpreter ‏@Interpreter_Mag Russia opposition leader Alexei Navalny and members of #PussyRiot arrested along with 234 others outside Moscow court http://bit.ly/1hKHFma

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (ZPrif)

158 For these reasons, and just for the sin of being another sociopathic troll asshole, you're banned. Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 11:18 AM (/FnUH) Question: HuRpn...is that from a Russian IP? Putin's guys like to troll all over the Internet.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (T0NGe)

159 they supply us oil

Venezuela is the US' #4 supplier (not #2). Guess who #5 is?

Go on.

Guess.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (t8ySh)

160 Amazed at how many people say they simply do not care about the Ukrainians who want freedom from Russia. You cannot equate caring for the Ukrainians with wanting war. But, you can be concerned for the people, as well as the future implications of a land grab (strategic or natural resources) and oppression from Putin's Russia.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 24, 2014 07:21 AM (IXrOn)

161 146 @ 111 I have no ties to Venezuela, so I don't know where you are getting the bit about me having a wife from that country. I think your interest in Venezuela is so you can keep seeing your wife's Caracas.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (X9npt)

162 Why would Ukraine just hand over a port? I don't think they will. And Poland is helping Ukraine. Putin is cracking down in Moscow. Check The Daily Mail. Putin is worried about his own Russian spring

Posted by: Thunderb at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (zOTsN)

163

>>>>Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne!

 

Bwahahaha

Posted by: Bigby's Miniature-Painting Hands at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (3ZtZW)

164 For these reasons, and just for the sin of being another sociopathic troll asshole, you're banned. Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 11:18 AM (/FnUH) *looks at Venn of being banned for trolling vis a vis sociopaths* Hmmm. I'm feeling mildly concerned at the moment.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Mmmm. Blondies with whipped cream. at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (VtjlW)

165 feel free, not feel fee

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (ZPrif)

166 hah. Corrected.
Sure. Sweet talk me now and if you don't know why I'm upset, I'm not going to tell you.

Posted by: russian prime minister medvedev at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (Eiwo7)

167 They supply us oil?! No war for oil!

Posted by: t-bird at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (FcR7P)

168

Did I mention before that I've actually been to South Ossetia?  Beautiful August 1993 day, the "guards" at the "border" post were happy to get a carton of Marlboros.  Beautiful mountain setting to the upronounceable capital, Tskhinvali.  Thing is, the Abkhazia thing/Georgian civil war was sort of amping up at that moment, but all was calm in the area around South Ossetia.  Spent the previous day just south of there in Stalin's hometown, Gori, where a classic imperious Soviet dezhuranya-style woman opened the Stalin Museum for us.  Also sat in The Boss's seat on his special WWII train car that sits next to his (preserved) birth-house - I believe the other seats had little labels in front of them (Zhukov, et al).

 

Oh, and ace was being indirect and polite - let me vastly expand and make up what I think he was saying at the very end:  yes, the US is in disastrously bad shape without a leadership or, apparently, a national character or will any more when it comes to the world, but that doesnt mean we ever could or should try to "do something" about a situation like the Crimea today.  Like I said, added a bit there.  But I think I guessed correctly.

 

Posted by: non-purist at February 24, 2014 07:22 AM (afQnV)

169 Ace, smart decision.

Posted by: Draki at February 24, 2014 07:23 AM (L8r/r)

170 [W]hen the forces of the revolution took over the national parliament on Friday, pledging to rid Ukraine of Russian influence and integrate with Europe, the people of Crimea panicked. Some began to form militias, others sent distress calls to the Kremlin. And if the officers of the Berkut riot police are now despised throughout the rest of the country for killing dozens of protesters in Kiev this week, they were welcomed in Crimea as heroes. ------------------------------ Tribalism is the default state of humanity. For over 200 years, America was unique in that it was populated by, and attracted to itself those who sublimated their tribal identity into the "American" identity. That's out of style, now. Now we're black, Hispanic, gay, transgendered, disadvantaged, etc. Anything but American. Those who don't study history are condemned to repeat it. As are those who DID study history. You can't fight basic human nature. You can steer it for a while, but sooner or later, your society is in for a reboot.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 24, 2014 07:24 AM (CJjw5)

171 I think Venezuelan is low quality oil that requires US level refineries.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:24 AM (6bMeY)

172 Question: HuRpn...is that from a Russian IP?

Putin's guys like to troll all over the Internet.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 11:21 AM (T0NGe)


No, it's Hector, a long time troll.  I think one time he slip that he was Serbian or maybe one of the former republics.


Big time loser.

Posted by: EC at February 24, 2014 07:24 AM (GQ8sn)

173 I don't think Putin would be satisfied with just the port, and I don't think Ukraine can afford to let it go anyway.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at February 24, 2014 07:24 AM (0Jb7F)

174 EoJ,

Welcome back!

Posted by: EC at February 24, 2014 07:24 AM (GQ8sn)

175 Why would Ukraine just hand over a port? The Ukraine already has an agreement in place with Russia for the both the sharing of the Port and the Fleet. That is not at issue. Actually if The Ukraine tried to violate that Treaty, all bets are off, and the Tanks would roll

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 07:25 AM (t3UFN)

176 >>Ooops, sock off Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 11:20 AM (GSIDW) Â…Â….if you pulled that trick in the booth below the curtain, you'd own the polls.

Posted by: ontherocks at February 24, 2014 07:25 AM (Qxl+E)

177

Question: HuRpn...is that from a Russian IP?

Putin's guys like to troll all over the Internet.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 11:21 AM (T0NGe)

 

I think that probably fits this guy better.

 

Posted by: Mehl at February 24, 2014 11:13 AM (PlVMn

 

 

Posted by: buzzion at February 24, 2014 07:25 AM (LI48c)

178

We can care about the Ukraine, especially about innocents caught in the crossfire, but that certainly doesn't mean we should go haring in there   guns a'blazing.   I think that's something we can all agree on.  

 

This is almost like Syria all over again, with the exception that Syria really DOESN'T have a "good guy" for whom to root.     In the Ukraine there's at least hope that one    clear   protagonist    will surface.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:26 AM (4df7R)

179 Ukrainians are about to find out who runs Barter Town. Embargo on.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 07:26 AM (g1DWB)

180 If Purp were here, he could run a traceroute on the IP and know for sure.

Posted by: EC at February 24, 2014 07:26 AM (GQ8sn)

181 Oh, and ace was being indirect and polite - let me vastly expand and make up what I think he was saying at the very end: yes, the US is in disastrously bad shape without a leadership or, apparently, a national character or will any more when it comes to the world, but that doesnt mean we ever could or should try to "do something" about a situation like the Crimea today. Like I said, added a bit there. But I think I guessed correctly.

Posted by: non-purist at February 24, 2014 11:22 AM (afQnV)



I disagree with your latter point; Reagan was very good at lending non-military support to the people behind the Iron Curtain previously.  Places like Ukraine were caught in the lurch when Poppy Bush started backtracking from that.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 24, 2014 07:26 AM (+ywjg)

182 >>>Why would Ukraine just hand over a port? I don't think they will. And Poland is helping Ukraine. Putin is cracking down in Moscow. Check The Daily Mail. They must, or there will be an invasion. >>>Putin is worried about his own Russian spring I doubt that very much. Russia's economy is in good shape thanks to their oil and gas wealth. And this may seem bizarre to you (as it seems to me), but in fact many Russians look fondly upon the days of the Soviet Union. I do not believe there's any juice in the idea that the majority of Russians really long for Western-style democracy. For one thing, they have a bad historical pattern informing them -- they thought things were "okay" during the Soviet era, then got pretty mad about the dismantling of the Soviet system (and sale of many important companies to the few wealthy people in Russia, sales seemed as unfair and corrupt), and all the chaos of the post-Soviet years. And then Putin came to power, and, fortuitously for him (and bad for democracy), Russia began to make some money thanks to oil and gas. So to Russians, democracy looks like a failure, and Soviet tyranny looks not so bad. In addition, there is the fact of 70 years of hardcore communist propaganda, and appeals to unthinking Russian nationalism, that are still embedded in the Russian psyche.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 07:26 AM (/FnUH)

183

I think Venezuelan is low quality oil that requires US level refineries.

-

 

Correct, Venezuelan crude is extremely thick and sour.     Aruba and US refineries are the only ones that can currently handle it, though China is trying to build some.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at February 24, 2014 07:27 AM (0Jb7F)

184 Remember that time I claimed my grandfather fought against the Nazis. But the group I claimed he was a part of was actually a nazi group? Good times!

Posted by: Hector at February 24, 2014 07:27 AM (Aif/5)

185 I'm happy to see Ukrainians demanding more freedom. That's a good thing. Hard to see how they hold on to Crimea. But they won't want to give that up. They will make the fair point that it's only recently in history that Russia flooded it with ethnic Russians to cement control. But possession is 9/10ths of the law. Maybe Sevastopol could be like Guantanamo Bay.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:27 AM (ZPrif)

186 Doesn't the Ukraine have lots of natural gas?

Posted by: Thunderb at February 24, 2014 07:27 AM (zOTsN)

187

Hey, come on now!  At least we're capable of gettin' some once in a while.

 

Hector's stuck in his Mom's basement drilling a dildo up his crack.

 

So, no fairsies.

Posted by: Sociopathic Troll Assholes at February 24, 2014 07:28 AM (BrQrN)

188 Yeah, the RussiaStrong!! trolls are more active than usual on many sites the last few days.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (ZPrif)

189 Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 11:21 AM You do know that Pussy Riot vandalized a Church and are anti-Christian Marxists? Why do you support them?

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (ks42t)

190 Well the first war over the Crimea didn't end so well for the Russians, but that was a very different Europe. Russia will absolutely go to war to hold a warm-water port, and there isn't much Ukraine can do about it. But they won't just give it up.

Posted by: brak at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (M2qTM)

191 After all these years preaching "democracy" to the world, the west increasingly seems to define "democracy" as being synonymous with the demonstration-riot-hybrid solution that is increasingly popular in both Europe and Asia as a substitute for actual, well, elections.

In the long run, this risks discrediting the concept of democracy itself.
Posted by: Mehl
.............
It's not a democracy when the head of the government does exactly the opposite of the will of both the people and the duly elected officials.

The EU trade compact was a done deal.. the parliament approved it.  Yanukovich convinced them to suspend the deal at the 11th hour with pressure from Putin.

They felt betrayed - much like we do when Barky  manufactures new laws out of thin air.

Posted by: Miss Lindsey Graham at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (Z7PrM)

192 >>>The Ukraine already has an agreement in place with Russia for the both the sharing of the Port and the Fleet. That is not at issue. Actually if The Ukraine tried to violate that Treaty, all bets are off, and the Tanks would roll it's more than that. Every tyrant uses the pretext of defending their own ethnics as an excuse to invade. Hitler claimed he had to protect ethnic Germans in Poland and Czechoslavakia, and invaded. There are in fact Russian ethnics in Crimea (and all over Ukraine). Putin will claim he needs to protect these people from the horrors of Ethnic Ukrainian Rule and invade.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (/FnUH)

193

Barry's got nuthin' better to do

'cept to watch TV and drink a coupla brews

 

Posted by: Bigby's Miniature-Painting Hands at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (3ZtZW)

194 Given that Putin has good reason to despise Barky (and Hillary), the only real option for the USA right now is to stfu. There is simply nothing we can do.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at February 24, 2014 07:29 AM (WaedO)

195 Since Sevastopol was founded by Russians, has always been an important naval base for them and continues to identify as Russian, Ukraine would only invite Invasion should they try to retain Sevastopol. As far as the rest of the Crimea goes, I know only glancing details about its history but I bet there is no clear historical ethnic owner (thanks to Stalin) anymore, so you might as well offer the rest of the Crimea as well. That won't satisfy the Kremlin probably, but it might buy some time.

Posted by: MTF at February 24, 2014 07:30 AM (F58x4)

196 "The Ukraine already has an agreement in place with Russia for the both the sharing of the Port and the Fleet. That is not at issue. Actually if The Ukraine tried to violate that Treaty, all bets are off, and the Tanks would roll"

You talking about Sevastopol?

Putin may want Odessa, but they must retain access to Sevastopol.

Interesting city.
Outstanding Liberty Port back in the day.
Actually shelled by that giant German railway gun in WWII.

http://tinyurl.com/ya6nfy

It's Wiki, but informative.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 24, 2014 07:30 AM (NHZpR)

197 Damn if things in late June of 1914 aren't just going swell.

Posted by: Bill at February 24, 2014 07:30 AM (uvyrw)

198 It would help stability if there were a unified allegiance of buffer states, from the Baltic to the Adriatic, with ties and differences to neighbors on both sides.

Never thought I'd say it, but the world needs Austria-Hungary.
Sad note, it needed it in 1914 too, and it wasn't up to the role.
Also? Nobody speaks Austrian no mo.
RIP Maria Von Trapp.
 

Posted by: Stringer Davis at February 24, 2014 07:31 AM (xq1UY)

199 Aaaaand (HuRpn) reemerges as (ks42t)

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/b][/i] at February 24, 2014 07:31 AM (4df7R)

200 149 Why would Ukraine just hand over a port? -- Because they are broke?

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 07:31 AM (GSIDW)

201

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 11:29 AM (ks42t)

 

I'm sure its a real coincidence that all these threads about Ukraine just suddenly bring out "lurkers" like this guy.

Posted by: buzzion at February 24, 2014 07:31 AM (LI48c)

202 >>Doesn't the Ukraine have lots of natural gas? Negative. Russia has lots of natural gas and Ukraine gets almost all of their gas from Russia. A significant amount of EU gas comes from Russia too, some through pipelines that go right through Ukraine.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 07:31 AM (g1DWB)

Posted by: Larry King at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (IV4od)

204 In 1997, Russia and Ukraine signed the Partition Treaty, establishing two independent national fleets and dividing armaments and bases between them.[6] Ukraine also agreed to lease major parts of its new bases to the Russian Black Sea Fleet until 2017. However, the treaty appeared to be far from perfect: permanent tensions on the lease details (including often reported issue of lighthouses) control continued. The Fleet's main base is still situated in the Crimean port city of Sevastopol. The Yushchenko Ukrainian government declared that the lease will not be extended and that the fleet will have to leave Sevastopol by 2017.[7] However, in 2010 the Russian leasehold was renegotiated with an extension until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047 (see below).

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (t3UFN)

205 boulder toilet hobo at February 24, 2014 11:29 AM We have our own problems with Obama's lawlessness, the IRS persecuting conservative groups and the NSA spying on Americans.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (ks42t)

206 No blood for mail order brides.

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (P1WNR)

207 What my mother does to me.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (Aif/5)

208 There are shale fields in Ukraine but I don't know if they are producing yet.

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (GSIDW)

209 Obama's next red line in the sand?

Nah....Obama's a pussy, and he looks up to Putin anyway.

Russia will do whatever the hell Russia wants, and John 'Waffles' Kerry will carry on endlessly about global warmening.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at February 24, 2014 07:32 AM (0IhFx)

210 Ace, Hector is using multiple socks -- he might be rebooting his modem or something.

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 07:33 AM (RD7QR)

211 buzzion at February 24, 2014 11:31 AM Have you read about Pussy Riot's political views?

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:33 AM (ks42t)

212 Putin may want Odessa, but they must retain access to Sevastopol.

You want Odessa.
You'd settle for Sevastopol.
You get Sochi.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at February 24, 2014 07:33 AM (xq1UY)

213 If there are 10,000 Russian troops in Crimea, I think it belongs to them already. I don't see the Ukraine being able to force them out.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:33 AM (X9npt)

214 What a mess Bet Poland, and her neighbors, really wish they had that missile defense system the JEF cancelled. That Mitt Romney sure was a nut when he said Putin was a threat

Posted by: Thunderb at February 24, 2014 07:34 AM (zOTsN)

215 There are in fact Russian ethnics in Crimea (and all over Ukraine). Putin will claim he needs to protect these people from the horrors of Ethnic Ukrainian Rule and invade. Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 11:29 AM (/FnUH) Yes. That is a political calculation for Putin. And it's all in his hands. I don't think there is much the outside world can do at this point without US Leadership which is now absent

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 07:34 AM (t3UFN)

216 What happens to my mouth during my shift at the glory hole.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:34 AM (Aif/5)

217 Interperter Mag blog is a good source for Ukraine updates http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-7-decoding-documents-indicting-dictators/

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:35 AM (ZPrif)

218 157 Empire of Jeff, Amen, gladto read it Jeff. I was so worked up on my trip north that in a near-miss traffic event my body seizeed up and I tore my stomach and ribcage muscles. I am slowly learning to let go of America that was b/c loving the dying/dead girl is killing me. Keep on posting.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:36 AM (TE35l)

219 I saw Hector's Glory Hole open for Ethnic Ukrainian Rule at the Colesseum in '94.

Posted by: Sociopathic Troll Assholes at February 24, 2014 07:36 AM (BrQrN)

220
Odessa is a perfectly good port.
Posted by: joncelli




Odessa is in the Russian speaking Eastern half. And frankly, is access to a warm water port under direct administration that important to the Ukraine?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 07:37 AM (kdS6q)

221 I don't think the WWI comparisons cut it. I don't think the EU or NATO have the stomach for even something similar to Bosnia anymore.  This will be more of a Ukraine working something out by themselves type deal with Russia watching over their shoulder to make sure they make the "right decisions".

Posted by: lowandslow at February 24, 2014 07:37 AM (IV4od)

222 It's so hard, when in such a chaotic transition, to find a leader you can even partially trust. Other than Yulia's name, I haven't heard of a "Lech Walesa" type character popping up.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 24, 2014 07:37 AM (IXrOn)

223 Palin vs. Tymoschenko: The Pudding Wars

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 24, 2014 07:38 AM (oFCZn)

224 World Bank review of the Russian Federation's economy:

LINK: http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/russia/overview

The second-to-last thing the Russians want now is a massive population inflow of displaced ethnic Russians fleeing Ukraine.

Posted by: mrp at February 24, 2014 07:38 AM (JBggj)

225 202 NevrGiveUp, The world wanted a weakened America and donated a lot to get it. I plan to be every bit asloyal to Obamamerica's foreign policy games tht Obamamericans were to America's under BushHitler.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:39 AM (TE35l)

226 If I were Ukraine I'd push for some arrangement short of ceding Crimea outright. Something that acknowledges reality -- Putin controls it today, most of the people there prefer Russia to Ukraine today, Ukraine is in no position to take it by force -- but holds open the possibility of reunification in the future.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:39 AM (ZPrif)

227 I find it extraordinary that the US would be "warning" Putin to stay out of it. Warning?! Or what? From what little I've read about the situation it seems it will split, as Ace has surmised above and, in the end, although not all Ukranians will be happy, it will be the best possible outcome of a bunch of bad potential outcomes. And the US can't/won't/shouldn't do a dang thing about it.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 07:39 AM (DmNpO)

228 This is when I feel SO good having Barack Hussein Milhouse Obama as my president. I sleep well knowing that his keen mind and strategic instincts are keeping my family and I safe. If Obama used the EPA to invade Latvia, I wouldn't be surprised. Nothing Wrongway Peachfuzz does anymore surprises me. I'm not sure if Romney would be better in this situation, frankly. His view of Russia as an "adversary" doesn't sound healthy right now. Leave them alone. Isolationism ain't so bad, when compared to being led by these buffoons. Read Max Hastings new book about the causes of WWI before you decide to trust your government too much in this kind of a situation....

Posted by: RobM1981 at February 24, 2014 07:39 AM (zurJC)

229 sven!! How are you?

Posted by: RWC at February 24, 2014 07:40 AM (fWAjv)

230 It's seems like all of the tabloids are burning Yulia at the stake already. daily beast the guardian cnn ... here's a bbc piece on her http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15249184

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 24, 2014 07:40 AM (IXrOn)

231

Capt. Hate, you misunderstood my ramble (uh, that would be because it was a ramble, thus my fault).  I don't think Ukraine is comparable to eastern Europe, in the 80s or now.  I meant something concrete, not "just words".  Now today even our words won't carry much weight (moral or practical), for which we can blame our fellow citizens (Obama is symptom, not cause).

 

But this raises a related point of great annoyance to foreign policy nerds, bt also something that helps endumbify "debate" about these issues:  disastrous, inept, unfit governments like the US has now cause a lot of damage, but there are situations where the world does what it does and our influence is limited, and would be even if serious people were in charge.  From "who lost China" to present day (collapse of the tired Mubarrak quasi-dynasty in Egypt), there is a failure to distinguish between idiocy (Obama admin.) and natural inexorable developments in a world not under our precise control.  And it matters, it's not academic.

 

Ukraine has not been functionally independent of Moscow since ..... help me here - Kievan Rus'?  That would be hundreds of years ago.  And the longstanding strategic rationale for that has only been reinforced by energy transportation routes. 

 

Posted by: non-purist at February 24, 2014 07:40 AM (afQnV)

232 Prison was not kind to Yulia. She was a hottie ten years ago. Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at February 24, 2014 11:03 AM (A0sHn) Quit ruining this mutiny for me!!

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 24, 2014 07:40 AM (oFCZn)

233 Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 11:39 AM Care to explain your support for the Christian hating Pro-Communist Pussy Riot?

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:40 AM (ks42t)

234 >>>Odessa is in the Russian speaking Eastern half. And frankly, is access to a warm water port under direct administration that important to the Ukraine? Crimea is not Ukraine's only coast on the black sea. If Russia attempts to take ALL of south Black-Sea-bordering Ukraine, that would landlock them. But if any part of Ukraine is left to border on the Black Sea, they could build a new port.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 07:41 AM (/FnUH)

235 196 Nah....Obama's a pussy, and he looks up to Putin anyway. -- From deep deep within the NSA xxx-files: Putin: "But first, you will ... Obama eagerly gets out his kneepads Putin rolls his eyes "...get rid of your nukes."

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 07:42 AM (GSIDW)

236 OK... let recap. Ukraine is a Constitutional Republic. It is guaranteed to be a Republic in its founding docs. Some there want to join the EU... some keep trade realationships with Russia, which they will loose if they go with the EU. Presidential Election was Won, by a Pro Russia guy.... whose duty under the Constitution was to keep Ukraine Free.... Ukraine owes EU Billions. EU just forced a non Democrat form of Government onto Greece, due to debt. President decides to go with Russia and an offer of Billions, vice the EU deal. People don't like it... so they start to riot (although polls show its close to an even split if they want to go Russia or EU). The Government dissolves.... there is no Prime Minister. President can be Impeached for Treason, by Parliament... BUT a Constitutional Court, made up of 18 jurists must also be involved to make sure it IS Treason.... President is not impeached, just stripped of power by Parliament, and power given to the Head of Parliament. Parliament then 'Pardons' a Politician, whose in jail on multiple charges, many of which have been upheld on appeal by various courts (Parliament does NOT have Pardon Power). The Constitution of Ukraine is gone. They are no longer a Republic, but are ruled by the Mob, and the whims of Parliament. The US seems to be backing this insurrection (because that IS what it IS)... as a Mob overthrows a duly elected President, in a Constitutional Republic.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 07:42 AM (84gbM)

237 >>Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 11:36 AM (TE35l) In plain english, are you OK?

Posted by: ontherocks at February 24, 2014 07:42 AM (Qxl+E)

238 My small penis is a

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:43 AM (Aif/5)

239 Russia's economy is in good shape thanks to their oil and gas wealth. Overall, but the average Russian doesn't see it. Of course, they blame the kleptocracy on capitalism, as they were taught to do. And this may seem bizarre to you (as it seems to me), but in fact many Russians look fondly upon the days of the Soviet Union. 100% true. It's not really a fondness for the Soviet system but a nostalgia for being the movers and shakers of the world. They liked being feared. Their satellite states still hate Russians with a passion. I do not believe there's any juice in the idea that the majority of Russians really long for Western-style democracy. Much of the world views Anglo-American republican democracy as some sort of obscure artifact of a particular culture that can't possibly work with them. Of course, they don't think of Marxism this way, so whatever. Personally, I think it's just excuse-making for failure. And then Putin came to power, and, fortuitously for him (and bad for democracy), Russia began to make some money thanks to oil and gas. So to Russians, democracy looks like a failure, and Soviet tyranny looks not so bad. Putin is also a pure fascist. Economically, he likes to control and leach off of business, but not own it. Culturally, he's all about a chauvinistic hegemony and a return to the "glorious past". Of course, Soviet communism, despite its rhetoric, had degenerated into fascism, as all socialist regimes eventually do. In addition, there is the fact of 70 years of hardcore communist propaganda, and appeals to unthinking Russian nationalism, that are still embedded in the Russian psyche. Oh, yeah. The bottom line of Marxist thinking is that economics is a conspiracy.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 07:43 AM (T0NGe)

240 Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 11:42 AM That is the best comment on this situation in the Ukraine I have seen.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:43 AM (ks42t)

241 Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 24, 2014 11:40 AM (IXrOn) She is not fit to rule.... we have pictures of her with GW Bush!

Posted by: MSM Historical Dept. at February 24, 2014 07:44 AM (84gbM)

242 >>>You do know that Pussy Riot vandalized a Church and are anti-Christian Marxists? Why do you support them?

Because whatever gets up Putin's nose, I'm fuckin' FOR it.  I would have liked to see the US Olympic delegation attend Sochi like a Castro Street gay pride parade just because it pisses that authoritarian fuckstick off. 

Also, Pussy Riot's beef is not with Christianity, but with the Russian Orthodox Church specifically, and not because they hate Jesus, but rather because they hate the Church's complicity with state crimes and atrocities.  Any student of Russian affairs knows this.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 07:45 AM (ewYO6)

243

This troll's arguments remind me of Yeats:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Putin is just full of passionate intensity to grind the Ukraine under his heel and make it an example to anyone else who might get ideas of democratic reform. The troll wants us to lack the conviction of our principles and stand up for democracy and freedom.

 

Without a visible path and strong backup,  Ukraine will fold.  They need to have it clear that the EU welcomes them and, even more importantly, means it.  Without support from the West, we consign even more innocents to live under a Russian boot.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:45 AM (PFy0L)

244 Well. Not WWI. But I wouldn't be surprised if Putin, encouraged by the rest of the worlds inaction, decides to "get the band back together" so to speak. The break up of the Soviet Union being the greatest tragedy of the century, to him.

Posted by: Thunderb at February 24, 2014 07:45 AM (zOTsN)

245 I should probably fire up the PC and do thee-mail flush thing. Been gone a bit. Evidently I missed a lot of "news"...

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:45 AM (TE35l)

246 But she has Princess Leia braids.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:46 AM (6bMeY)

247
And speaking of the Crimea:

large crowds have amassed in the town of Sevastopol in Ukraine's Crimea region. Pics/Vidya at the link.  Chants, buring flags -- you know the drill.

http://tinyurl.com/mtno27y

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 07:46 AM (kdS6q)

248 Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 11:45 AM They vandalized a Church and in interviews, they say they hate Christianity. They are admitted Communists and you are allowing your hatred of Putin blind you. What has Putin done to you? You don't live in Russia his policies do not effect you.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:47 AM (ks42t)

249

"Why would Ukraine just hand over a port? I don't think they will. And Poland is helping Ukraine. Putin is cracking down in Moscow. Check The Daily Mail."

 

 

Sevestopol is not just "a port".  It is a major fleet base, akin to Pearl Harbor.  Loss of Sevestopol would cripple the Black Sea Fleet id the Russians have not been making other arrangements since the fall of the USSR.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Winter of Discontent will End! The Flowers of Fury will be here for Spring Planting at February 24, 2014 07:47 AM (hLRSq)

250 Crimea is not Ukraine's only coast on the black sea. If Russia attempts to take ALL of south Black-Sea-bordering Ukraine, that would landlock them. But if any part of Ukraine is left to border on the Black Sea, they could build a new port. *** Crimea is practically an island and, you're right, there's lots of Ukraine which is waterfront. It looks to be about 600 kilometers of straight-line coast even without Crimea. http://bit.ly/1cgy7aX http://bit.ly/1cgy7aX

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 07:48 AM (DmNpO)

251 224 OnTheRocks, Don't know yet. The doc ordered an Ultrasound, and I had to give labs. The good news is my heart is fine. The bad news is I may have shredded my abdominal and groinal wall or somthing. She was convinced I had either ben in a brawl or weightlifting to do this damage. Nope just got mad.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:48 AM (TE35l)

252

You don't live in Russia his policies do not effect you.

 

--------------


When they destabilize a region and threaten war, yeah, they kind of do.

 

Sorry, good men don't pretend to not notice evil.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:48 AM (PFy0L)

253 Bet Poland, and her neighbors, really wish they had that missile defense system the JEF cancelled. That Mitt Romney sure was a nut when he said Putin was a threat Posted by: Thunderb at February 24, 2014 11:34 AM (zOTsN) Like Canada, how many other countries are "on hold" until we get rid of this administration.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 24, 2014 07:49 AM (IXrOn)

254 Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne! Hey! Paws off the skull throne! I worked hard for that! Skulls don't just grow on trees, ya know! Well, OK, AtC has Throne of Skulls access. But the rest of you yahoos are on your own!

Posted by: Brother Cavil at February 24, 2014 07:49 AM (naUcP)

255 Care to explain your support for the Christian hating Pro-Communist Pussy Riot? Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 11:40 AM (ks42t) so you think that because they hate Christians and are commies they should be beaten? arrested & tortured?

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 3 days until spring training at February 24, 2014 07:49 AM (u8GsB)

256 @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 11:45 AM Democracy does not lead to freedom. It is a dictatorship of the majority. A Constitutional republic is the best system. Something we once had until recent ties.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:49 AM (ks42t)

257 Putin is also a pure fascist. Economically, he likes to control and leach off of business, but not own it. Culturally, he's all about a chauvinistic hegemony and a return to the "glorious past". *** The Godfather

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 07:49 AM (DmNpO)

258 >>>What has Putin done to you? You don't live in Russia his policies do not effect you.

Edward Snowden, Syria's chemical weapons, and Iranian nukes all say hi.

Screw Putin and the horse he rode in barechested on.  I fully support any opportunity the United States gets to jam one up his ass and break it off, assuming the blowback to us isn't disastrous. 

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 07:49 AM (ewYO6)

259 Ports are about more than just bordering a sea or ocean. You can't just put a port on any bit of random coast land.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:50 AM (ZPrif)

260 My understanding of geopolitics is a

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:50 AM (Aif/5)

261 phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 3 days until spring training so you think that because they hate Christians and are commies they should be beaten? arrested & tortured? --------------------------- I have no pitty for them or any other Christian hating commie. If they desecrated my Church, I would beat them myself.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:51 AM (ks42t)

262 "The US seems to be backing this insurrection (because that IS what it IS)... as a Mob overthrows a duly elected President, in a Constitutional Republic."

Because most of us assume people are just like us, that they think like us and want the same things as us. They don't. Besides the tribal splits as pointed out above, the Ukraine is split by people who desire a more freedom oriented Communist style nanny state and those that desire a European style socialist nanny state. Neither one are worth a shit but they don't know any better.

Posted by: lowandslow at February 24, 2014 07:51 AM (IV4od)

263 The only thing giving Putin pause, I'll bet, is concern over getting in the way of our unilateral disarmament. If he invades Ukraine even Democrats might get interested in a better nuclear defense.

Posted by: MTF at February 24, 2014 07:51 AM (F58x4)

264 What has Putin done to you? You don't live in Russia his policies do not effect you. Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 11:47 AM (ks42t) eh? Russia and Iran, sittin' in a tree...

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 24, 2014 07:51 AM (IXrOn)

265 Sorry, good men don't pretend to not notice evil. And poor men can't afford to fight it. America is not going to find creditors to engage in a war against a nuclear power over the Ukraine.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:51 AM (AxE3L)

266

Democracy does not lead to freedom. It is a dictatorship of the majority. A Constitutional republic is the best system. Something we once had until recent ties.

 

----------

 

Then you agree that since The Ukraine is a Constitutional Republic with a viable opposition party and a free press,  since  it  is the best system  we must stand up for it against the tyrant who is trying to tear it down.

 

Glad you finally saw the light.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:51 AM (PFy0L)

267 >>>(Aif/5)

Whoever this guy is:

1.) Sock-puppeting is usually not allowed.

2.) But you're killin' it in this thread so far.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (ewYO6)

268 Natural deepwater ports, in bays like San Francisco Bay or the Bay of Sevastopol are amazing natural geographic features.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (ZPrif)

269 What has Putin done to you? You don't live in Russia his policies do not effect you. Hey, look--it's someone talking about Brezhnev in 1970. Asshat.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (659DL)

270

"I'm not sure if Romney would be better in this situation, frankly. His view of Russia as an "adversary" doesn't sound healthy right now."

 

 

It sounds like an accurate assessment though.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Winter of Discontent will End! The Flowers of Fury will be here for Spring Planting at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (hLRSq)

271 If neither the US, the UN, or NATO will oppose Russia in another giant land grab, what the heck are we thinking by having thousands of American Soldiers over there in NATO. On the other hand, never, never try to predict what an incompetent coward will do when his finger is on the trigger.

Posted by: TimothyJ at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (ep2io)

272 Ports are about more than just bordering a sea or ocean. You can't just put a port on any bit of random coast land. *** Yes, but they would not be left without a functioning port if Crimea goes Russian. They will still have Odesa.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (DmNpO)

273 216 RWC, I'm alive thanks. Got home last night around 1800. I'm healing from whaever happened. I just popped in to say "I'm okay" and thanks to all who were concerned. I'm a lot more worried about Obama and the EPA attacking the American power grid than I am about Russian business. Good hunting y'all.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:52 AM (TE35l)

274 I am not a Putin fan but hoping he goes down is the kind of short-sightedness that had people cheering for Mubarak to go down. And then what? The strongest opposition to Putin right now are teh old-style commies. Putin at least is an opposing force to collectivist soviets and a force against the jihadis.

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 07:53 AM (GSIDW)

275 >>>Ports are about more than just bordering a sea or ocean. You can't just put a port on any bit of random coast land. Heroic engineering efforts are preferable to war, especially one that will not be won.

Posted by: ace at February 24, 2014 07:53 AM (/FnUH)

276

And poor men can't afford to fight it.

America is not going to find creditors to engage in a war against a nuclear power over the Ukraine.

 

-------

 

There's that, but that is its own point.  That's not saying "hey, it's none of our business."  It's saying "we can't do anything because of a dearth of leadership committed to pacifying the FSA."

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:53 AM (PFy0L)

277 Serbians are fanatical russophiles. They'll suck the Russki dick even without being prompted.

Posted by: joncelli at February 24, 2014 07:53 AM (RD7QR)

278 Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 11:52 AM (ewYO6) Jeff, you're arguing with Hector.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 24, 2014 07:53 AM (AxE3L)

279 America is not going to find creditors to engage in a war against a nuclear power over the Ukraine. Yes, because I see everyone advocating war. Settle down. What is needed is a recognition that Ukraine borders four NATO allies and that does matter. What we need is a policy vis-a-vis Russia and we ain't got one.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 24, 2014 07:54 AM (659DL)

280 Susan Rice was on Meet the Press crowing about the success of finalizing latest rounds of SALT treaty nuke disarmament. Idiot Gregory is a moron, but I wish he would have asked her what video set the Ukranians off.

Posted by: Thunderb at February 24, 2014 07:54 AM (zOTsN)

281 You may fire when ready.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:54 AM (6bMeY)

282
if any part of Ukraine is left to border on the Black Sea, they could build a new port.
Posted by: ace




Viable ports can't just spawn anywhere*.  There are geographic restrictions. Besides, the larger issue is if Ukraine is going to orientate towards trading West, then the road, rail and pipeline infrastructure are the critical networks.

*InB4 Mulberry

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 07:54 AM (kdS6q)

283 256 Circa, I'm an OG cold warrior buddy. Obama is about one step to the right of Brezhnev. I'm more worried about him than Putin. America wanted THIS...God bless they now get to rap what they sowed.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 07:54 AM (TE35l)

284 Not supporting Russian intervention but I can understand their mindset . After all we have the Monroe Doctrine and have intervened in a number of Latin American and Caribbean countries. Self interest and democracy vs self interest and oppression doesn't register with everyone.

Posted by: Justin Nicotyme at February 24, 2014 07:54 AM (AnlLW)

285 Did a Republican just get elected President?  Foreign affairs are not allowed to be discussed in American media unless it's used to reflect Obama's awesomeness.

Posted by: Shoot Me at February 24, 2014 07:55 AM (qiXMt)

286

Whoever this guy is:

1.) Sock-puppeting is usually not allowed.

2.) But you're killin' it in this thread so far.

 

----------

 

Agreed.

Posted by: @JohnTant at February 24, 2014 07:55 AM (PFy0L)

287 I have no pitty for them or any other Christian hating commie. If they desecrated my Church, I would beat them myself. Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 11:51 AM (ks42t) it's "pity" .....they will know you are Christian by your love..... did you go to services yesterday? did you read the gospel of St. Matthew? St. Matthew (5:38-4 . The lesson we have to learn from today's gospel hardly needs any emphasizing. We must, if we are truly Christian, forgive those who offend or injure us. We must love all men, whether they be friends or enemies.

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 3 days until spring training at February 24, 2014 07:55 AM (u8GsB)

288 Viable ports can't just spawn anywhere*. There are geographic restrictions. Besides, the larger issue is if Ukraine is going to orientate towards trading West, then the road, rail and pipeline infrastructure are the critical networks. **** They HAVE a port in the West. Odesa.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 07:56 AM (DmNpO)

289 sven10077 at February 24, 2014 11:54 A Obama is about one step to the right of Brezhnev. I'm more worried about him than Putin. ---------------------------------------------------- That is my stance on everything going on. I am worried about the monster at home, not demons abroad.

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 07:56 AM (ks42t)

290 I stand with the people of Ukraine.

Posted by: Rand Paul at February 24, 2014 07:57 AM (P1WNR)

291 Posted by: sven10077 at February 24, 2014 11:52 AM (TE35l) Good to hear from ya. Get better.

Posted by: RWC at February 24, 2014 07:57 AM (fWAjv)

292 >>Oh, yeah. The bottom line of Marxist thinking is that economics is a conspiracy. Posted by: AmishDude at February 24, 2014 11:43 AM (T0NGe) Â…Â…..there's a 1000 comment thread right there.

Posted by: ontherocks at February 24, 2014 07:57 AM (Qxl+E)

293 Odessa is in the Russian speaking Eastern half. And frankly, is access to a warm water port under direct administration that important to the Ukraine? *** Odesa is on the Southwest coast.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 07:57 AM (DmNpO)

294 Yeah, Ukraine has little choice about controlling Sevastopol. Best hope is a usage concession short of outright seceding it to Russia -- ie basically what they have now. Keep the status quo.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at February 24, 2014 07:57 AM (ZPrif)

295 >>>Putin at least is an opposing force to collectivist soviets and a force against the jihadis.

Any Russian government is going to be opposed to jihadis. 

Look: the imperatives of Russian governments have remained the same for, oh, roughly 400 years or so.  Simply because of its land mass, central Asian location, and multi-ethnic composition, ALL Russian governments (whether "Communist" or "Imperial" or "democratic" or "authoritarian," whatever) are going to have the same general strategic desires.  Chief among these is a warm-water port open year round.  Hence the historical drive by the Russians towards Constantinople/Istanbul, and their obsession with Sevastopol and Syria today.  That's why Putin will fight to keep Sevastopol, and why, from his perspective, he must.  It's a Russian national imperative.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 07:58 AM (ewYO6)

296 They have pipelines and agricultural can be shipped by rail. Ever read made in Ukraine off of a good?

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 24, 2014 07:58 AM (6bMeY)

297 Ukraine has not been functionally independent of Moscow since ..... help me here - Kievan Rus'? That would be hundreds of years ago. And the longstanding strategic rationale for that has only been reinforced by energy transportation routes.

Posted by: non-purist at February 24, 2014 11:40 AM (afQnV)



First of all thanks for that response.  Kiev is a much older city than Moscow but as you say they've been tied together for a long time.  Regarding more than "just words", Reagan was providing support to the opposition groups through the CIA back when they could be trusted because they were still in the Cold War mindset and at least some of them hated the commies.



The protestors are a very fragmented group and not all of them are as sympathetic as the hawt chick in the embedded video last week.  It's a fucking mess and with Preznit Rupert Pupkin more interested in talk shows and ESPN than doing anything about it, our options are about nil.  But that doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 24, 2014 07:58 AM (+ywjg)

298

Posted by: Tragedy at February 24, 2014 11:57 AM (ks42t)

 

I love that the TB3k works like a wack-a-mole.  The comment pops up and then it gets crushed hard.

Posted by: buzzion at February 24, 2014 07:59 AM (LI48c)

299 I have no love for Christian hating Communists. You don't have to...but throwing them in jail is another thing. I think Kanye West is an idiot, but he doesn't deserve to be jailed for being an idiot.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 24, 2014 07:59 AM (659DL)

300 Nood

Posted by: rickb223 at February 24, 2014 07:59 AM (h1D+w)

301 And then what?
The strongest opposition to Putin right now are teh old-style commies.

Posted by: votermom

Then we oppose the next as well. One does not preclude the other. We're not suddenly bound to accept whatever insane leadership that results just because we recognize Pooty-Poot is an unreconstructed fascist.


Posted by: weft cut-loop[/i] [/b] at February 24, 2014 07:59 AM (xrX4n)

302 I'm pretty sure Obama put a Gulf port in South Carolina, so anything is possible.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 24, 2014 07:59 AM (ZshNr)

303 Just my uninformed opinion but all I can say is Ukraine better find a way to deal with Russia on their own terms because if they hope that the EU or even Poland will defend them when the going gets tough they are going to be sorely disappointed. As for the good ole USA, just acknowledge that we are MIA as a force for world peace right now and move on. I'll just keep praying for freedom there and here.

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 08:00 AM (GSIDW)

304 Port of Sevastopol info  LINK: http://preview.tinyurl.com/lsqdamk

Port of Odessa info.  LINK: http://preview.tinyurl.com/kgx75tv

(source:  worldportsource.com)

Posted by: mrp at February 24, 2014 08:02 AM (JBggj)

305 Ukraine's primary problem isn't its ports. 

Ukraine's primary problem is energy: they are essentially held hostage right now by Russia's energy supply, and once Putin shuts off the tap they're going to need something credible coming from the West to make up for it.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 08:02 AM (ewYO6)

306 Writing this from Russian perspective... Russia's history is pretty much a series of invasions by Europeans, Turks, Mongols... They have a certain amount of National Paranoia on the subject. 80 years ago, they took 20 Million casualties pushing back the last European Invasion... so they came up with an idea called the 'Near Abroad'. Its a series of small countries... tripwires if you will... beyond the border of Russia which must be invaded prior invading Russia itself. Like our own Monroe Doctrine, they do not want major powers on their direct borders. The EU has been expansionist since the Cold War ended... marching East... and now has more than one member directly on the Russian border. Some in Ukraine, and the EU, want Ukraine to join the EU.... which cuts Russia off from Warm Water Ports, and places the EU on the Southern Flank. It also would place Ukraine's Gas and oil pipelines under EU jurisdiction.... as they WILL take control of them because of Ukraine's debt.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:02 AM (84gbM)

307
Odesa is on the Southwest coast.
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse



When talking about the Ukraine, it's considered "East", that is in the Russian speaking part of the country East of the Ukrainian speaking Western portion. Common convention.

Map: http://tinyurl.com/my54a8q




Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 08:04 AM (kdS6q)

308 We're not suddenly bound to accept whatever insane leadership that results just because we recognize Pooty-Poot is an unreconstructed fascist. -- We? While Obama is in charge? He'll only support a muzzie govt. No, the responsible thing is to not cause chaos when "we" obviously have no commitment to set things right. Let the Russian people find their own way to democracy ... so right now they are in a quasi-capitalist corruptocracy. That at least has allowed some slow reforms, including the resurgence of the Orthodox Church and increased freedom of speech (the fact that Pussy Riot is still on the streets and not in a gulag is a good thing)

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 08:04 AM (GSIDW)

309 Phoenixgirl-- At the same time, Christ wasn't gentle with the money lenders in the Temple.

Can I be for arrest of vandals and against their being tortured? Why yes, yes I can.

Posted by: typo dynamofo at February 24, 2014 08:06 AM (IVgIK)

310 The odd thing is, this non-confrontational shit should be right in Obama's wheelhouse, but you can bet Obama and his brain trust have no fucking clue on what to say or how to handle it. The fact of the matter is he could just make a statement saying all possible outcomes in the Ukraine are less then desirable but we will diplomatically work with anyone in keeping it from fracturing into a prolonged civil war.

Posted by: lowandslow at February 24, 2014 08:06 AM (IV4od)

311 There is one tiny little thing that Sevastopol has, that Odessa doesn't have.

There is the little matter of the Submarine pens built into the side of the mountain at the north west end of the harbor.

http://tinyurl.com/lvabq45

Outdated?
Yes.

Better than nothing?
Hell yes.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 24, 2014 08:06 AM (NHZpR)

312 No one is talking about going to War in the Ukraine. But "accidents" and "incidents" and "adventurism" happen when the moral leader of the Free World and once lone Super Power is no more.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 08:06 AM (t3UFN)

313 will i be banned if say that russian pm may be on to something ?

let me see, euoros brokered an agreement between the protesters - and yanukovich to help de-escalate the situation.  straight forward stuff, limitation on pres power, return of old constitution, move up elections.  ok.  then they decided to do something else, what they really wanted, and took over power in the capital without elections, once the riot police left. now there are protests in crimea, and I image in the entire eastern part. those folks feel left out of the process. who can blame them, they voted for yanukovich, they wake up  to a revolution and a new government they did not exactly elect.

Posted by: runner at February 24, 2014 08:06 AM (yrk2K)

314 >>Ukraine's primary problem is energy: they are essentially held hostage right now by Russia's energy supply, and once Putin shuts off the tap they're going to need something credible coming from the West to make up for it. That and they are deeply in debt, mostly to Russia. And as I mentioned above the EU gets a significant amount of their oil from Russia via Ukraine. There are no easy answers to this mess.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 08:07 AM (g1DWB)

315 The democratically elected president of Ukraine is ousted by a mob and all of sudden he's the villain? What happens when Ted Cruz is elected president in 2016 and New England goes crazy and wants to align with the EU? Think we should give a port or two?

Posted by: jwest at February 24, 2014 08:10 AM (u2a4R)

316 Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 12:06 PM (t3UFN) So.... Russian rolls in tanks to help the Ethnic Russians in Crimea... Ukraine's army resists... and gets stomped. Poland intervenes, which is part of the EU... so even though there is no EU army... its involved... EU is part of NATO... and the US has always been the driving force of NATO... Oh... and there are only 2 supply lines to our troops still in Afghanistan... through Pakistan (problematic).... and through RUSSIA... as we try to pull equipment out. This could escalate very very quickly.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:11 AM (84gbM)

317 Brazil and the European Union agreed on Monday to lay an undersea communications cable from Lisbon to Fortaleza to reduce Brazil's reliance on the United States after Washington spied on Brasilia. Good. Wait till I stop laughing before I comment more on this. OK . Hey idiots we are old pros at tapping into those cables. Just as the Russians.

Posted by: US Navy at February 24, 2014 08:11 AM (t3UFN)

318 yanokovich is a criminal and a puppet but he was preferred over other candidates.  that should say something.

Posted by: runner at February 24, 2014 08:12 AM (yrk2K)

319 >>>What happens when Ted Cruz is elected president in 2016 and New England goes crazy and wants to align with the EU? Think we should give a port or two?

If Ted Cruz arms the Secret Service with high-powered sniper rifles and has them massacre over 100 unarmed protestors on the Mall in Washington, DC (with orders to intentionally go for kill-shots to the head and chest) then yeah...I'd be totally okay with President Cruz being turned out of power via street revolution.  And I hope you would be too.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 08:13 AM (ewYO6)

320 Can I be for arrest of vandals and against their being tortured? Why yes, yes I can. Posted by: typo dynamofo at February 24, 2014 12:06 PM (IVgIK) of course

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl 3 days until spring training at February 24, 2014 08:13 AM (u8GsB)

321 This could escalate very very quickly. Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 12:11 PM (84gbM) Oh no doubt, especially with no one home in Washington. But I doubt Poland is going to intervene.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 24, 2014 08:13 AM (t3UFN)

322 Laurie David's Cervix at February 24, 2014 12:04 PM
====
According to Wiki, the ethnic Russian population of Odessa is 29%, Ukrainians 62%.


Posted by: mrp at February 24, 2014 08:15 AM (JBggj)

323 When talking about the Ukraine, it's considered "East", that is in the Russian speaking part of the country East of the Ukrainian speaking Western portion. Common convention. Map: http://tinyurl.com/my54a8q *** So Russia wants the entirety of the coast, leaving Ukraine landlocked? Yeah. That's not gonna fly.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 24, 2014 08:16 AM (DmNpO)

324 Phoenix-

Cool then. I just wanted a little clarity, something between the full on support of Pussy Riot (interesting that Western media has just accepted the name) and supporting Putin the thug.

Posted by: typo dynamofo at February 24, 2014 08:16 AM (IVgIK)

325 "If Ted Cruz arms the Secret Service with high-powered sniper rifles and has them massacre over 100 unarmed protestors on the Mall in Washington, DC (with orders to intentionally go for kill-shots to the head and chest) then yeah...I'd be totally okay with President Cruz being turned out of power via street revolution. And I hope you would be too." That's the media narrative that's being sold, but is it accurate? If someone is going to OK snipers and head shots, why not just roll in the tanks and do some serious opposition elimination? There wasn't any mass atrocities that the protesters were trying to stop. They just didn't like the elected government. How about suggesting waiting for the next election?

Posted by: jwest at February 24, 2014 08:17 AM (u2a4R)

326 This strikes me as a bad move: On Sunday the Ukrainian parliament voted that Russian would no longer be one of the country's official languages. One third of Ukraine speaks Russian as their first language.

Posted by: Jon (not the trill) at February 24, 2014 08:19 AM (DPMu1)

327 It's Lebensraum Time!

Posted by: TexasJew at February 24, 2014 08:21 AM (U+u4A)

328 I put a link in my nic to a blog that seems to think Soros and the EU need the Ukraine for its resources, and the damage it will cause Putin and Russia.

Posted by: Chilling the most at February 24, 2014 08:21 AM (gxtMZ)

329 Greetings: Even though it seems to be heavily into "mergers and acquisitions" mode, I'm still having a hard time seeing the European Union as anything close to a "white knight" especially in view of its brow-beating of the Swiss for their referendum vote to limit immigration which apparently flies in the face of the EU's "free movement of people" ideology. It may be a large part of their culture that the Ukrainians are kissing off when they accept the EU's embrace. The EU may be less despotic, but it still will want its way and political and economic shenanigans are not, as history proves, beyond its pale.

Posted by: 11B40 at February 24, 2014 08:22 AM (TwEki)

330 Posted by: Jon (not the trill) at February 24, 2014 12:19 PM (DPMu1) funny thing? It was actually in their Constitution that Ukrainian was the Official Language, and that there would be no other... And that the Government was supposed to Support and Protect ethnic Ukrainians... Found the damn thing online... Constitution was in some ways very scary.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:24 AM (84gbM)

331 The EU may be less despotic, but it still will want its way and political and economic shenanigans are not, as history proves, beyond its pale. Posted by: 11B40 at February 24, 2014 12:22 PM (TwEki) Really????

Posted by: Greek Democracy at February 24, 2014 08:25 AM (84gbM)

332 The main question is: "how this will affect the hot mail order bride trade"?

Posted by: TexasJew at February 24, 2014 08:25 AM (U+u4A)

333 That's the media narrative that's being sold, but is it accurate? Posted by: jwest at February 24, 2014 12:17 PM (u2a4R) Yes. There are plenty of videos showing protesters and even non-combatants being shot. Part of ethical warfare is responding proportionately to a threat. Sniping protestors and non-combatants, virtually none with firearms themselves, at least from the videos I have seen so far, is not proportional.

Posted by: Nate at February 24, 2014 08:27 AM (i3OIF)

334 Ukraine has 73,000 soldiers. Russia more than a million. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after the Olympics finished. Now we will see what Putin does.

Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 08:30 AM (dZQh7)

335

City with the most billionaires is the world?  MOSCOW.  Maybe Putin can obtain the money to buy the Ukraine from them. 

Posted by: burt at February 24, 2014 08:32 AM (1+kJ5)

336 >>>That's the media narrative that's being sold, but is it accurate? If someone is going to OK snipers and head shots, why not just roll in the tanks and do some serious opposition elimination?

Yes, it's accurate.  There are endless rolls of video footage of this, journalists have been all over it.  It's not a staged 'atrocity' or somesuch.

>>>There wasn't any mass atrocities that the protesters were trying to stop. They just didn't like the elected government.

Yanukovych's government was 'elected' in the same way as Chavez's: after winning an election narrowly he tossed his opponent in jail and immediately suspended the 2004 Ukrainian Constitution and assumed dictatorial powers.  The cause of the immediate outbreak was Yanukovych's last-second scuttling of an already agreed-upon deal for closer ties with the European Union (which the majority of the nation strongly desires) in favor of a payoff from Vladimir Putin.  The demands of the protestors (the "EuroMaidan" movement) were to revisit the agreement, which was NOT arrived at democratically at all.

Furthermore, this revolution has in fact been shockingly orthodox in terms of political procedure: Yanukovych's deposition was done in accordance with the laws, and was made possible when a quorum was achieved in the Rada (their Congress) after fully 40% of Yanukovych's own party defected from him and showed up to the chambers to create a legal quorum.  The laws subsequently passed reinstating the 2004 Constitution, calling for early elections, deposing ministers and the President himself, etc., were all done near-unanimously, in broad daylight (with full public supervision), and pass constitutional muster.  This hasn't been a "put 'em up against the wall" revolution or anything.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 08:32 AM (ewYO6)

337 If Belarus starts to crumble, this will not end well..

Posted by: TexasJew at February 24, 2014 08:33 AM (U+u4A)

338 Isn't Aston Kutcher girlfriend Ukrainian, Mila Kunis?  Maybe they should make her Queen..Tsarina, or what ever it's called.  That would work?  right?

Posted by: Paladin at February 24, 2014 08:35 AM (E1aoU)

339 Also, for all the blithe talk of dividing up the Ukraine, much like Iraq or Yugoslavia, this is probably not as easy as it sounds. Where do you draw the exact lines? I have a bad feeling about this.

Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 08:36 AM (dZQh7)

340 "Part of ethical warfare is responding proportionately to a threat. Sniping protestors and non-combatants, virtually none with firearms themselves, at least from the videos I have seen so far, is not proportional." I can't imagine how someone could advocate something like "proportional" war. The basis of which is perpetual fighting and dying. War is something that should be avoided, but if it can't be, then it's best that one side crush the other so disproportionately that idea of returning to war is never revisited.

Posted by: jwest at February 24, 2014 08:37 AM (u2a4R)

341 313 City with the most billionaires is the world? MOSCOW. Maybe Putin can obtain the money to buy the Ukraine from them. --- Unemployment rate by year chart for Russia up to 2011 http://preview.tinyurl.com/mmcsuh9 I think the current unemployment rate there now is 5.5

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 08:38 AM (GSIDW)

342 Posted by: Nate at February 24, 2014 12:27 PM (i3OIF) During the siege, Union gunboats lobbed over 22,000 shells into the town and army artillery fire was even heavier. As the barrages continued, suitable housing in Vicksburg was reduced to a minimum. The question becomes, in a Rebellion, what is proportional?

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:38 AM (84gbM)

343 Oh, and the nat gas pipeline that supplies all of Europe with gas runs through Ukraine. Ukraine is also dependent on this gas. I'd like to see if Russia is mobilizing yet. I also understand Ukraine's military is regionally based, i.e. people serve near where they live = instant militias.

Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 08:38 AM (dZQh7)

344 Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 12:32 PM (ewYO6)

interesting.  not disputing what you are saying, but i would like a link, to see for myself.

Posted by: runner at February 24, 2014 08:42 AM (yrk2K)

345 "Protesters shot fireworks with makeshift launchers. In combination with throwing stones and using slingshots, they overwhelmed disoriented Berkut special forces units, who were pelted with flying objects as fireworks exploded around them. Protesters wore military helmets and carried makeshift—or captured—shields. Wooden boards were used to protect their lower legs from shrapnel the police taped to exploding stun grenades. Among the array of homemade weapons, some were perhaps a little too ambitious. A crude trebuchet—a type of medieval catapult which uses a counterweight to fling objects—was overrun and dismantled." I think the snipers had a legit reason to shoot, but their side was in the wrong politically so they should not have.

Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 08:42 AM (dZQh7)

346 Posted by: Jeff B. at February 24, 2014 12:32 PM (ewYO6) Latest polls show the Country pretty evenly split on the EU vice Russia question. Also, the EU just replaced the Democracy in Greece... due to debt... the same kind of Debt the Ukraine owes to the EU. And the Rada did NOT Impeach the President... they enacted laws outside Constitutional limits to give his power to the speaker of Parliament... and now have a warrant out for HIS arrest.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:42 AM (84gbM)

347 I just tweeted this: Obama's admin is just as cronyist and corrupt as Putin's but Obama's policies are more collectivist. Their economy expands, ours falters.

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 08:43 AM (GSIDW)

348 Jeff B is spot on, runner. The only thing I would say to temper it would be that a Ukraine-Russia deal is not as dumb as it sounds, and the Ukraine-EU deal is not the no-brainer it might appear to be from here.

Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 08:44 AM (dZQh7)

349 "And the Rada did NOT Impeach the President... they enacted laws outside Constitutional limits to give his power to the speaker of Parliament... and now have a warrant out for HIS arrest." You mean the president or the speaker?

Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 08:45 AM (dZQh7)

350 @249 - yes, it does sound accurate. Fox is reporting that the US Military is targeting force levels similar to 1940, which was still a quasi-isolationist period for the USA. We had started the build up to WWII, but it had really just begun and our forces were small and weak. Tanks essentially didn't exist, for example. Obama is going to hand his successor an exhausted understaffed military. There will be a few bright spots, like SSN's, but essentially we are going to become semi-isolationist at least for awhile. Couple this to an exhausted economy, which could be a shambles by 2016, and the money to fix the military might be scarce. Elections have consequences, for sure. To nobody's surprise, Barack Obama and his band of Ideologue OJT's have led us down the road to perdition. Good thing we're focused on Global Warming, Gay Rights, and Vacation Plans... it's not like there are crucial issues tearing at us.

Posted by: RobM1981 at February 24, 2014 08:48 AM (zurJC)

351 You mean the president or the speaker? Posted by: sexypig at February 24, 2014 12:45 PM (dZQh7) Warrant is out for the President's arrest... for mass murder.... ie all the people killed during this rebellion.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:51 AM (84gbM)

352 328 Obama & his progs are doing more damage to America than foreign enemies.

Posted by: votermom at February 24, 2014 08:53 AM (GSIDW)

353 Posted by: RobM1981 at February 24, 2014 12:48 PM (zurJC) Force levels will be at isolationist levels... Foreign Policy will still be that we are the Worlds Police. Recipe for disaster.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 08:53 AM (84gbM)

354 >>That's the media narrative that's being sold, but is it accurate? If someone is going to OK snipers and head shots, why not just roll in the tanks and do some serious opposition elimination? >>There wasn't any mass atrocities that the protesters were trying to stop. They just didn't like the elected government. Bullshit. I watched the live feed on Sky in Europe last week. They showed snipers in a hotel and other protected locations shooting at unarmed civilians.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 24, 2014 08:54 AM (g1DWB)

355 Yes, by all means let Putin have Sudetenland, I mean Crimea.  He will surely be appeased by that.

The fact that we have become a nation led by gutless, spineless weasels doesn't make it right.

Posted by: Adjoran at February 24, 2014 08:54 AM (QIQ6j)

356 "Bullshit. I watched the live feed on Sky in Europe last week. They showed snipers in a hotel and other protected locations shooting at unarmed civilians." All they needed was a blonde Albanian girl carrying a bag of Cheetos across a burning bridge. If you've ever been at an actual news event and then seen it later on the news, you would know that one is nothing like the other. The point is, you can't allow mobs to rule.

Posted by: jwest at February 24, 2014 09:10 AM (u2a4R)

357 In many ways, this is the story of Obama.

Posted by: Null at February 24, 2014 09:17 AM (xjpRj)

358 224Posted by: Jeff B. bzzt.. Pussy Riot IS anti-Christian. You don't know what you are talking about. What they did was equivalent to setting a Koran on fire in a Mosque, or destroying a Torah in a Synagogue. They are nothing but hard core Marxists, and worse than Occupy Wall Street asses. The Orthodox Church was not, and has never been "complicit" with atrocities. It suffered enormously under Soviet rule, with people PUT TO DEATH for being Christians. You are beyond an idiot on this. They could have easily protested United Russia offices. They instead sought to inflict severe distress on worshippers in a Orthodox cathedral and mock the Christians worshipping there. They have admitted they are anti-Christian in interviews. They deserved the punishment the Russian courts sentenced them to. If you were a "student of Russian affairs" you would know this.

Posted by: rightwingva at February 24, 2014 09:27 AM (kCnae)

359 Oh, and let me add...As a flag waving Tea Party member, if anyone from a Tea Party group was to enter a place a worship in the USA and vandalize it, I would be the FIRST to say that Obama should throw their ass in jail. If you have a beef with Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, whatever, you DON'T go into a house of worship and use it for your "protest".

Posted by: rightwingva at February 24, 2014 09:33 AM (kCnae)

360 Given the "cycle of violence" in the former Soviet satellites, the UN should impose a "Two State Solution" on Ukraine. Split off the Russian half from the ethnic Ukranians. But also give the Russians right of return to the rest of Ukraine, and prohibit any ethnic Ukranian from building anything or living in the Russian half. Of course, one must empower the Russian half to launch periodic "military" sorties into Ukraine, including women, children, cafes and buses. Of course, any incursion by Ukraine into the Russian portion should be met with unrelenting UN condemnation and an international boycott. Done!

Posted by: Sammy Powers at February 24, 2014 09:38 AM (+Tbn2)

361 The Constitution of Ukraine is gone. They are no longer a Republic, but are ruled by the Mob, and the whims of Parliament.

The US seems to be backing this insurrection (because that IS what it IS)... as a Mob overthrows a duly elected President, in a Constitutional Republic.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 24, 2014 11:42 AM (84gbM)


**************************************8


They are going back to the 2004 constitution that was abrogated, Chavez-style, by Yanukovich.

Posted by: U.S. Grant at February 24, 2014 10:05 AM (HubSo)

362

Don't sell the Ukraine military short, this is not the same situation as in Georgia. The Russians needed to build up their invasion force by having war games on the Georgia border to move troops and also farmed out a lot of the ground work to Chechen warloard allies and their troops. They hit Georgia when a few thosand of their best trained troops were still in Iraq supporting us, the Ukraine's have been trained up to reach NATO standards for awhile now and will not be surprised. The Russians can most likely take Crimea with the troops stationed there who outnumber the Ukraine army located there also and  due to the bottleneck into Crimea where they can throw a blocking force against the Ukraine's. They won't be able to take any more of the country then that because a force into anywhere else in Ukraine will turn everybody outside of Crimea against the Russians and they would take heavy losses. Putin does not have to send a force as he can put just tell the new leadership, "Give us the Crimea or we will make life a living hell shutting off your gas". They will cave, give up the Black Sea ports which will hurt and Russia will go back to the downward spiral that Russia is on due to their low birth rates, people leaving the country and China slowly taking over Siberia and the border countries due to a Asian population imbalance that Russia cannot hope to overcome.

 

Posted by: bdawg65 at February 24, 2014 11:52 AM (L3Itw)

363 "the most important thing to Russia seems to be the Crimea -- which sports a warm-water port on the Black Sea" For centuries. Good point. And yes, they consider the Ukraine as part of the old Russian empire and "theirs". Although, the western end could calve-off the economically poor eastern part; and not suffer much loss; losing the Crimea would cripple them. A solution which might calm Putin, but their nationalist will never accept the idea peacefully. I agree that a Russian intervention may be a possibility. Certainly it is their historic pattern since Catherine the Great. I don't envy these brave people living under the shadow of Mordor. Lacking the US, what other nation will help them. It is the old pattern of larger, aggressive European countries carving up the smaller ones.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 24, 2014 11:56 AM (OU1Hh)

364 They are going back to the 2004 constitution that was abrogated, Chavez-style, by Yanukovich. Posted by: U.S. Grant at February 24, 2014 02:05 PM (HubSo) Interesting how some people forget or don't realize your critical point. "but he was elected legally", they protest. When a leader illegally ends a constitution, he cannot hide behind the definition of "legal government". " Ukraine is now a dictatorship. President Viktor Yanukovych, in having the deputies of his Party of Regions endorse an extraordinary packet of legislation, has arrogated decisive political power to himself. After hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians spent weeks in the cold demonstrating for basic human rights and a stronger association with Europe, the president has responded with a violation of human rights and a rather sad imitation of Russia." -from "Ukraine: The New Dictatorship by Timothy Snyder- New York Review of Book ============= "What is unusual about contemporary Ukraine is that it’s exploited by a criminal gangster regime—Yanukovych’s— in cahoots with another criminal gangster regime—Putin’s. Many countries have the misfortune of being misruled by homegrown camarillas. Many countries have the misfortune of being dominated by predator states. Ukraine has the double misfortune of being misruled at home and “mis-dominated” abroad." "..Although lopping off the Donbas would benefit the rest of Ukraine, Yanukovych’s mafia regime desperately needs Ukraine to be whole. If Luhansk and Donetsk were to split away, their rust-belt economy would collapse without Kyiv’s financial support and the Regionnaires, trapped in their polluted bailiwick, would have nothing to steal. And what would Yanukovych’s multibillionaire pal, Rinat Akhmetov, do without easy access to Ukraine’s resources? A similar logic holds for Putin. What would he do with a rotten slice of Ukraine—a kind of mega Transnistria? Subsidize its dead-end economy? Spend valuable time and resources on jailing the corrupt Regionnaires and the troglodyte Communists? No, a weak Yanukovych regime in a weak Ukraine serves Putin’s interests perfectly." -- from Michael Totten's online "World Affairs Journal" Totten's work on the Middle East, Balkans, Russia and Eastern Europe rates far more attention than he receives from major media. He provides a link to Alexander J. Motyl's great articles. Both are a great resource as well- at the same site

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 24, 2014 12:22 PM (OU1Hh)

365 Oh wow, Sorry, for too much text. Too much enthusiasm can carry me away.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at February 24, 2014 12:24 PM (OU1Hh)

366 Odessa is also majority Russian, and all Ukrainian nationals there are new settlers. Pretty much all of east Ukraine is majority ethnic Russian - since it is a part of the historical Russia which was ceded to Ukraine as a result of political games. In the case of partition, EU can has poor, uneducated, violent west Ukrainians with a big neo nazi hardon for the sweet Hitler times when their beloved Bandera cleansed the land of Jews and Russkies. Russia will have ports and mines. Not a good deal for EU.

Posted by: Aristotle at February 25, 2014 12:46 PM (nYhK2)

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