Ace of Spades HQ

May 03, 2014

Saturday Car Thread 05/03/2014 - [Niedermeyer's Dead Horse]
— Open Blogger

Yeah. I know. I'm overdue for posting a Home Improvement/DIY thread but have hit a run of good car bits that beg to be posted. I'm sure you won't mind.

New-car sales are doing well with Jeep, Nissan, and Subaru making big gains for April (YOY), up 52%, 18.3%, and 21.7% respectively. Jeep credits their gains to the new Cherokee and Patriot. As appalled as I was the first time I saw the Cherokee and the Grand Cherokee, I have to admit that the Grand Cherokee has since grown on me. The Cherokee? Well, I no longer curl up in a ball and weep like a baby when I see it, but it still has a ways to go before I can say that it isn't just plain ugly.

Yep. Still ugly.

One thing about the sales stats that surprises me is Mitsubishi. Although sales are way up at +46.6%, they still sold only 6.5k units in April. This perplexes me. From my experience, the quality of Mitsubishi cars is on par with Toyota and Honda but they sell tens of thousands fewer cars every month. I purchased a 2003 Galant ES with 13k miles on it, a former rental, in 2005. I drove it until the end of 2008 and my daughter still drives it today. All this time there hasn't been a single problem with it (Knock on wood). If I were ever again in the market for a new car I'd give serious consideration to purchasing another.

2015 Mitsubishi Galant

Also revealed in that article, one-third of buyers are now financing their new car purchase for 72-mos or longer with that percentage dropping as the age of the buyer increases. That's an awful long time to pay for a car: It's well past the expiration of a standard warranty. It's waaaay past the honeymoon period.

There must be an awful lot of people out there who are buying cars they really cannot afford.

Havana Motor Club documentary revs up Cuban street racing scene:

From the 1959 Cuban Revolution until just recently, it was illegal to buy or sell cars in Cuba without government approval. There were also very few new cars brought into the country. At the same time, racing was also banned on the island nation because it was considered an elitist sport. Of course, a government can do its best to prohibit whatever it wants, but that's not always going to stop passionate people from pursuing what they want to do. And that's exactly what has happened with racing in Cuba Â– it never really disappeared, it just went underground.
A new documentary titled Havana Motor Club aims to tell the story of Cuba's illegal drag racing scene, along with an attempt to organize the first legal race in the country in decades. However, the film isn't quite done yet, and its creators are raising money on Kickstarter to complete it. The fundraiser has already met its goal of $52,250 to finish editing, license music and generally improve the sound mixing. The filmmakers plan to release the documentary in 2014 or early 2015, but backers can get it early.

Below is a clip about the funding/making of the movie but due to sizing issues I can't embed the actual clip from the documentary. You must, Must, MUST click on the link above and watch it. From the snappy background beats, to the incredible American iron, to the defiant attitude of the Cubans featured, it captures you from the get-go.

Speaking of Cuba, were you aware that the ban on new-car sales had been lifted in Cuba? I was not. Of course, they are still Communists, so that little luxury purchase will also come with a 100% sales tax. Luxury? Why yes! At 100x's the average annual wages for a Cuban, only the favored-few can afford them.

U.S. government says it lost $11.2 billion on GM bailout:

The U.S. government lost $11.2 billion on its bailout of General Motors, more than the $10.3 billion the Treasury Department estimated when it sold its remaining GM shares in December, according to a government report released on Wednesday.
The $11.2 billion loss includes a write-off in March of the government's remaining $826 million investment in "old" GM, the quarterly report by a Treasury watchdog said.
The U.S. government spent about $50 billion to bail out GM. As a result of the company's 2009 bankruptcy, the government's investment was converted to a 61 percent equity stake in automaker, plus preferred shares and a loan.
The U.S. Treasury whittled down its GM stake through a series of stock sales starting in November 2010, with the remaining shares sold on Dec. 9, 2013.

Oh! But we're not done yet. GM is being sued over loss-of-value to their vehicles due to the ignition-switch issue. GM argues, Hey! That was the old GM.

Here's a suggestion I'd like to pass along to any media-types that might be reading this: Substitute "taxpayers" for every use of "U.S. government". In this context, the U.S. government does not exist. The U.S. government doesn't lose or payout a damn thing. WE DO! It's the taxpayers who are taking the hit for this. The only application of the words "U.S. government" that is appropriate is this: The U.S. government has, with GM, cost taxpayers $11.2B and counting.

Car making mysterious noises? There's an app for that:

When first I saw this lead about a custom car, from Moron Paul Carter, I failed to scroll down to get the full picture. I hope you won't make the same mistake:

And this beauty is courtesy of another Moron, Roger Smith. He says, "In HS, Eric Martin rebuilt one in his basement, couldn't drive it to school in the rain ":

This week's 'Out and About' photos will make grown men want to cry:

Why, oh why?

Now, for some scenery:

BTW, if you aren't following these folks on Twitter, you really should be: Mecum Auctions and Automotive News.

Please feel free to send any complaints or commendations to me at Twitter: Nied's Dead Horse.

Posted by: Open Blogger at 12:58 PM | Comments (142)
Post contains 1023 words, total size 8 kb.

1 First?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at May 03, 2014 01:01 PM (9W+0f)

2 :-]

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at May 03, 2014 01:01 PM (9W+0f)

3 I think I'd like 2 Straight threads in the 4:30-7:00 time slot. Later, all. God bless. :-)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at May 03, 2014 01:03 PM (9W+0f)

4 MUMR, if you are so dang unhappy with the weekend content, why do you waste your time dropping by?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:05 PM (DmNpO)

5 "There must be an awful lot of people out there who are buying cars they really cannot afford."

Ding ding ding!

Except that in many cases they're being forced into buying new cars that they can't afford, rather than good quality used cars that they could afford, because of... the pernicious market-distorting effect of Cash For Clunkers.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 03, 2014 01:05 PM (noWW6)

6 That red muscle car, omg, I want it sooooo bad. What is it (sorry to be such a dummy)?

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:05 PM (8lmkt)

7 " There must be a lot of people buying cars they can't afford." <This.

Posted by: JoeyBagels at May 03, 2014 01:06 PM (9UZjt)

8 On Tuesday I will hand over the keys to the SO's Mustang. I didn't wreck it while he was overseas.

*Pats self on back*

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:06 PM (MpP9p)

9 Except that in many cases they're being forced into buying new cars that they can't afford, rather than good quality used cars that they could afford, because of... the pernicious market-distorting effect of Cash For Clunkers. *** Never fails to make the hair raise up on the back of my neck.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:07 PM (DmNpO)

10 Cash for Clunkers--don't get me started on that....

Posted by: Used Car Dealer at May 03, 2014 01:07 PM (9UZjt)

11 The Grand Cherokee would be great if it weren't for the Cylon-eye headlights. I'm not sure if Daimler-Benz had anything to do with the engineering but platform-wise it's the best of the little-mid SUVs out there, closer to an X5 or ML than an Explorer. As for Mitsubishi - over the past decade and a half they've done a very small number of really knockout-quality vehicles, like the earlier Evos, and the rest of the lineup has been basically meh. Of course, one could say even worse of Nissan and they seem to be doing more or less okay now. Maybe I should go find myself a decent stock Evo IX while there's still a chance of one out there that hadn't been modified or flipped into a ditch.

Posted by: JEM at May 03, 2014 01:08 PM (o+SC1)

12 Except that in many cases they're being forced into buying new cars that they can't afford, rather than good quality used cars that they could afford, because of... the pernicious market-distorting effect of Cash For Clunkers.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 03, 2014 05:05 PM (noWW6)

The last two times I've visited a dealership for scheduled maintenance on my car I've been asked if I'd like to upgrade to a newer version since my car is in demand (it's a an 08 sedan). Heck, I've been gotten mail from dealerships 50 miles away about it. My response is always no.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:09 PM (MpP9p)

13 The last two times I've visited a dealership for scheduled maintenance on my car I've been asked if I'd like to upgrade to a newer version since my car is in demand (it's a an 08 sedan). Heck, I've been gotten mail from dealerships 50 miles away about it. My response is always no. *** Jeep keeps sending me mail/email about trading in my 2008. No way.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:11 PM (DmNpO)

14 sheesh, another mildly irritating rendition of the Anthem. these singers need to figure out that there is NOTHING WRONG with that song and they don't need to change it. grrrrrr.

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:11 PM (8lmkt)

15 Another note re the current automobile purchaser profile:

In the last year, if you look at new consumer credit origination, more than 95% of it is in only two categories, those being:

-- Student loans

-- Car loans

Not by coincidence, these are the two categories where lenders are still willing to write big paper for people who can barely fog a mirror creditwise.

Government Motors in particular are still going nuts with the NINJA loans for car buyers. Have to move all that inventory off the lots one way or another!

If we get another recession in the next eighteen months, and last quarter's employment and GDP are surely inclining in that direction, there will be an absolute bloodbath of excess capacity in the auto sector. And a tsunami of auto loans gone sour. So many cars to be repoed, with such low resale prospects once repoed, that the lenders may just abandon the vehicle in the borrower's hands and write off the loan.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 03, 2014 01:12 PM (noWW6)

16 And that foamed-up Merc is like Nancy Pelosi with a dose of surgical 38DDs, an impressive technical achievement but hideous nonetheless.

Posted by: JEM at May 03, 2014 01:13 PM (o+SC1)

17 14 sheesh, another mildly irritating rendition of the Anthem. these singers need to figure out that there is NOTHING WRONG with that song and they don't need to change it. grrrrrr. Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 05:11 PM (8lmkt) Her dress was blowing up all around her head. I notice they cut away pretty quick.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 01:14 PM (oMKp3)

18 Jeep keeps sending me mail/email about trading in my 2008. No way. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 05:11 PM (DmN

One dealership's letter said it would match or beat my current percentage rate. I paid the car off early so I was tempted to ask how they could beat a 0 percent interest rate.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:14 PM (MpP9p)

19 sheesh, another mildly irritating rendition of the Anthem. these singers need to figure out that there is NOTHING WRONG with that song and they don't need to change it. grrrrrr. *** THIS is how you sing it. http://bit.ly/MP7F25

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:14 PM (DmNpO)

20 I think it's not just Cash for Clunkers because in order to buy a used car, or even a complete beater car, you've got to have money. You probably need more money than you do to buy a new car, and then you've got a new car. There's also the issue of getting a warrantee (even if it's going to run out before the car is paid for, that's still years away) because if you don't have money and you do the smart thing and buy a used beater car and it breaks... well, you don't have money. It's always been easier to put yourself farther into unnecessary debt when you're poor than it is to scrape and do with what you can actually afford. Cash for clunkers might have made it worse, but it's always been that way. Yes, it's perverse. People may be buying new cars because the economy is still really bad, and not because it's better.

Posted by: Synova at May 03, 2014 01:15 PM (7/PU+)

21 I'm still partial to driving a bus. Plenty of room underneath, IYKWIM.

Posted by: Prez'nit 404 at May 03, 2014 01:16 PM (Dwehj)

22 I drove a Fiat 500e the other day. Yeah, okay, it's a "compliance car", the price FiatChrysler pays to be able to sell Jeeps and 300s in California. And it only goes 80 miles on a charge. And it's got a backseat that probably violates some Federal law if you put someone of color back there. But it works really well while it's running. It's quick enough (unlike the Leaf) to deal with real traffic up to 75 or so. And it's a real car, it doesn't have the three-foot A-pillars or all the "gee whiz aren't you green?" gadgetry of the Japanese brands. I liked it a lot.

Posted by: JEM at May 03, 2014 01:17 PM (o+SC1)

23 THIS is how you sing it.

http://bit.ly/MP7F25

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 05:14 PM (DmNpO)

Wow, Niedermeyer, that is epic! Had goose bumps all the way through and then teared up about halfway. Dang, that girl could sing. Thanks!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:19 PM (8lmkt)

24 Oh, I did not do that on purpose and I am not going in the barrel.

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:20 PM (8lmkt)

25 Oh, I did not do that on purpose and I am not going in the barrel. Come to me, Peaches.

Posted by: The Barrel at May 03, 2014 01:21 PM (0AKks)

26 Wow, Niedermeyer, that is epic! Had goose bumps all the way through and then teared up about halfway. Dang, that girl could sing. Thanks! ** I still remember it. Her version made such an impact that there's actually documentary-type footage on YT of how it impacted the troops overseas.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:21 PM (DmNpO)

27 I made a Presidential funny and no one laughed. Sigh.

Posted by: Prez'nit 404 at May 03, 2014 01:21 PM (Dwehj)

28 I got my Lancer with 80k miles on it and I drove it to 150k and the only reason I traded it in was because my mechanic said it was time for the serpentine belt replacement and new brakes and some other repairs that were going to run me about $2,000 all told and I decided I'd rather put that money down on a new to me car. But other than basic maintenance, I had not one single problem with that car. 72 month financing and longer? Longer? What the hell. I'm kicking around trading in mine and I'm feeling guilty about even considering 48 months.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh save us mighty SMOD at May 03, 2014 01:22 PM (dMSj2)

29 Is that a Barracuda?

Posted by: eman at May 03, 2014 01:24 PM (MQEz6)

30 @28 - probably cam-belt replacement, and you know that with a little tutoring and some gloves and wrenches you could do that crap yourself...

Posted by: JEM at May 03, 2014 01:24 PM (o+SC1)

31 Never let it be said that we commies don't have a sense of humor.

Posted by: Prez'nit 404 at May 03, 2014 01:25 PM (Dwehj)

To me it's UN-FREAKIN'-BELIEVABLE how rude some guests on this blog are to each other.

Are you this rude to other guests at people's HOUSES as well??? Same principle...

Posters on this blog answer to Ace and his representatives and everybody else can suck it

It's not about respect it's about courtesy

Posted by: MAx at May 03, 2014 01:25 PM (b7yum)

33 No, a Cutlas?

Posted by: eman at May 03, 2014 01:25 PM (MQEz6)

34 @29 - what, in the post? I see a couple Olds Cutlasses, one running on awful chrome Chinese 20s, fortunately aluminum is readily recycled...

Posted by: JEM at May 03, 2014 01:26 PM (o+SC1)

35 Maybe that dude should be hired by Jeep to foam their cars.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 03, 2014 01:26 PM (L+hnr)

36 "As for Mitsubishi - over the past decade and a half they've done a very small number of really knockout-quality vehicles, like the earlier Evos, and the rest of the lineup has been basically meh."

Mitsu's problem is mindshare deficit.

People will say, "Nice car! Um, what is it?"

And then after they find out, they'll privately muse to themselves that while they like the car, there is the fear that service and parts support is going to be a whole lot harder than with a Toyota or a Honda. People don't drive past Mitsubishi dealers all that frequently.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 03, 2014 01:27 PM (noWW6)

37 72 month financing and longer? Longer? What the hell. I'm kicking around trading in mine and I'm feeling guilty about even considering 48 months.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh save us mighty SMOD at May 03, 2014 05:22 PM (dMSj2)

AtC, I paid my 60-month loan off 9 months early by paying $125 more than the minimum payment every month and then adding an extra payment once or twice a year.

I'd pay to see you bargain with a car salesman.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:27 PM (MpP9p)

38 Red car looks like a '70 Cutlass 442 on downtown rims.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 03, 2014 01:27 PM (ojnk6)

39 30 Hahaha better be a handy fella tho

Posted by: MAx at May 03, 2014 01:28 PM (b7yum)

40 It's an Olds 442. Had to figure this out for myself . . . what is this place coming to?

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:28 PM (8lmkt)

41 People don't drive past Mitsubishi dealers all that frequently.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 03, 2014 05:27 PM (noWW6)

Yup. Can't think of any in my immediate area.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:28 PM (MpP9p)

42 72 month financing and longer? Longer? What the hell. I'm kicking around trading in mine and I'm feeling guilty about even considering 48 months. *** YES! Can you imagine? What IS longer? 84 mos? At even 12k miles per year, 84 mos would put a car at 84k miles. The factory warranty on most systems is already long gone and even the major powertrain warranty for some will have expired. Then you're making a payment on a car for which you are ALSO paying for higher-end maintenance and repairs. No way.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:28 PM (DmNpO)

43 In general Chryslers don't age well

Posted by: MAx at May 03, 2014 01:28 PM (b7yum)

44 @29 - what, in the post? I see a couple Olds Cutlasses, one running on awful chrome Chinese 20s, fortunately aluminum is readily recycled... I see an ugly purple Cutlass, and a red 442 right above it. Did I miss the other Cutlass?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at May 03, 2014 01:29 PM (0AKks)

There really doesn't seem to be much of an "entry level" new car out there, anymore. Even the cheapest is so loaded up with multitudes of airbags, electronic suites, comfort features and such, that they're all essentially small luxury cars.

And, I don't think that a cheap-ish new car, with just AM-FM-CD and a USB port, simple 4 speaker audio, roll-up windows, manual tranny....... would even sell, these days.

I'm beginning to think of finding a mid-80s Mercedes 300 TD, in the smaller 123 series body. No electronics to speak of, and the aftermarket does offer electro-mechanical replacements for the wonky vacuum climate control & door lock system.

Five cylinder turbo diesel, mechanical fuel injection. Reliable as an anvil, and nearly as simple to maintain. What's not to love?

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at May 03, 2014 01:30 PM (vvk2F)

46 Peaches at May 03, 2014 05:28 PM (8lmkt) ******** See 38 Peaches.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 03, 2014 01:30 PM (ojnk6)

47 Got a letter in mail from dealership asking for my 08 GT500 and if I would trade for a new Ford.

I should ask how much they would give me in cash and I skip the new car.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 03, 2014 01:30 PM (L+hnr)

48 It's a 1970 Cutlass. If something about it seems familiar, it was painted/trimmed out by the same heartless bastards who who did the Skylark I posted a week or two ago.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:31 PM (DmNpO)

49 And, I don't think that a cheap-ish new car, with just AM-FM-CD and a USB port, simple 4 speaker audio, roll-up windows, manual tranny....... would even sell, these days.

Posted by: Jim at May 03, 2014 05:30 PM (vvk2F)

Can you even get roll-up windows these days???

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:31 PM (MpP9p)

50 How about a nice shout out to Bobby Brown and crack for all they did for Whitney?

Posted by: eman at May 03, 2014 01:32 PM (MQEz6)

51 probably cam-belt replacement, and you know that with a little tutoring and some gloves and wrenches you could do that crap yourself... Posted by: JEM at May 03, 2014 05:24 PM (o+SC1) I would love to be able to basic and more than basic auto repairs. I mean, I can add oil and change my air filter and change a tire if the idiots didn't tighten the lug nuts so tight that it takes the Hulk to loosen them but anything beyond that, not so much.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh save us mighty SMOD at May 03, 2014 01:32 PM (dMSj2)

52 Anyone going to the Celebration of Automobiles next week?

http://celebrationofautomobiles.com/

Posted by: HR at May 03, 2014 01:34 PM (hO8IJ)

53 AlextheChic, SMOD taunted us this morning
http://news.yahoo.com/bus-size-asteroid-buzzes-earth-comes-closer-moon-124925373.html

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 03, 2014 01:35 PM (L+hnr)

54 I would love to be able to basic and more than basic auto repairs. I mean, I can add oil and change my air filter and change a tire if the idiots didn't tighten the lug nuts so tight that it takes the Hulk to loosen them but anything beyond that, not so much.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh save us mighty SMOD at May 03, 2014 05:32 PM (dMSj2)

I bet that if you had a flat tire anywhere in America and posted your location to AoS, there would be someone at your side changing that tire and thanking you for the privilege in no more than an hour.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:35 PM (MpP9p)

55 Anyone going to the Celebration of Automobiles next week? *** Cool! thanks for the link. Mecum is doing a big auction in Indy next week as well.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:36 PM (DmNpO)

56 The 3ft cheater bar for lug nuts is handy for more things than gorilla tight lug nuts.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 03, 2014 01:37 PM (L+hnr)

57 Went to Wells Fargo Championship. When leaving the shuttle driver drove by what he said was his car. Ha ha. Guy sitting in front of me said that is Brian Davis's car. "I washed it last week. " Pretty sweet and I think this was the model. http://preview.tinyurl.com/mdznxou Then saw JR Smith of the Knicks walking a half mile from the course. Standing on the street corner with his honey. No shuttle. No nothing. WTH?

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:39 PM (T8H6k)

58 The 3ft cheater bar for lug nuts is handy for more things than gorilla tight lug nuts. It's a great stupidity removal tool as well. Most people's stupidity is red and sticky and leaks out when you beat the hard enough.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 03, 2014 01:40 PM (lr3d7)

59 Pretty sweet and I think this was the model. http://preview.tinyurl.com/mdznxou ** Beautiful.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:40 PM (DmNpO)

60 Anna Puma. Around the shop we call it Air Force tight. P

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:40 PM (T8H6k)

61 I'm still waiting for that free car I was promised in 2008.

Posted by: Low Information Voters at May 03, 2014 01:41 PM (Dwehj)

62 Nationwide race determined to wreck as many cars as possible in the final laps. Some hard hits.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at May 03, 2014 01:42 PM (ZPrif)

63 And thanks for the weekend posts NDH.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:42 PM (T8H6k)

64 I have roll up windows in my '08 Dodge truck. But I am a cheap bastard who is firmly rooted in the last century.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at May 03, 2014 01:42 PM (Xuseh)

65 See 38 Peaches.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 03, 2014 05:30 PM (ojnk6)

Yesh, I was typing while you were posting. Found several pics of the car online. It's gorgeous, although I am really partial to the GTO. zoom zoom!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:43 PM (8lmkt)

66 How many cars left in the Nationwide?

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:44 PM (T8H6k)

67 Mitsubishi for a long time was affiliated with Chrysler Corp. And much like Chrysler they were quite innovative(e.g., all wheel drive, variable valve timing). Plus, the parent company had a huge electronics arm that they farmed. Mistsubushi engines were some of the best. When Daimler came along for Chrysler, Mitsubishi was kinda left high and dry, and the parent company never saw the auto company as much of a cash generator (they are into banks, shipbuilding, bridges, you name it.) I've now lost track of any partnerships or joint ventures for the poor little auto company that could.

Posted by: bergerbilder at May 03, 2014 01:44 PM (8MjqI)

68 >>Can you even get roll-up windows these days??? Posted by: Vendette Yeah. A year or so ago I got stuck with a rental car that had manual windows and no cruise control. Don't remember what it was other than really small and crappy. It was all they had available.

Posted by: Aviator at May 03, 2014 01:45 PM (3rrMW)

69 AtC, I paid my 60-month loan off 9 months early by paying $125 more than the minimum payment every month and then adding an extra payment once or twice a year. I'd pay to see you bargain with a car salesman. Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 05:27 PM (MpP9p) Hmm. That's actually a good idea. AtC's Tips On Buying A Used Car: 1. Call Boy BFF and tell him we're buying me a new to me car. 2. Go to dealership. 3. Tell Boy BFF what the top number is and stress to him that if he goes a dollar over it I will kidney punch him in the middle of the showroom. 4. Go look at Audis and Mercedes while he talks to the salesman. Note, I am not buying an Audi or Mercedes. 5. Wander back over, look at the three options he's picked out, pick the one whose color I like best. 6. Sign the paperwork whilst the salesman sits there looking all dazed and Boy BFF looks smug as shit because the person who got dorked in the squeakhole in the deal is not me. Seriously, I keep telling him that he should start up a business acting as peoples' agent for buying a car. He's such a smarmy jackass that nothing the salespeople do has any effect on him. He's still mad at me that I got my last car without him. Oh and my last car? I got it from the dealership owned by a guy in our church and they gave me such a ridiculously high trade in value that I didn't dicker all that much. I did manage to get them to throw in a year's worth of oil changes and quarterly detailing for a year. Also *blushes* You are far too kind.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh save us mighty SMOD at May 03, 2014 01:47 PM (dMSj2)

70 69TH?

Posted by: beerslinger at May 03, 2014 01:47 PM (zSIg/)

71 The last rental shitbox I had, some years ago, had roll up windows, only the armrest was kind of in the way of the roll up action. It was pretty dreadful. I much prefer electric windows, although I have spent a lot of money, too many times, replacing their motors or whatever.

Ooooo, here comes the Derby walk-up!!!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 01:47 PM (8lmkt)

72 You're welcome GinC!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 01:49 PM (DmNpO)

73 Seriously, I keep telling him that he should start up a business acting as peoples' agent for buying a car. He's such a smarmy jackass that nothing the salespeople do has any effect on him. He's still mad at me that I got my last car without him. Oh and my last car? I got it from the dealership owned by a guy in our church and they gave me such a ridiculously high trade in value that I didn't dicker all that much. I did manage to get them to throw in a year's worth of oil changes and quarterly detailing for a year.

Also *blushes* You are far too kind.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh save us mighty SMOD at May 03, 2014 05:47 PM (dMSj2)

I took the SO when I bought my car. He was invaluable. If he wasn't available I would have called a minister I know. Great guy, but also lethal at the dealership.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 01:50 PM (MpP9p)

74 At this stage there are officially still 26 cars running of the 40 who started. But that was before the last wreck which the field is still red flagged for. So we'll see how many are back out there when they restart. I see two of those drivers being interviewed as they come out of the care center. 5 laps to go.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at May 03, 2014 01:51 PM (ZPrif)

75 I personally do not drive , I take the bus so that I do not contribute to global warming.

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at May 03, 2014 01:53 PM (hP/Mt)

76 AtC needs no BFF for a car deal. How much for a retainer?

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:53 PM (/djtm)

77 In the near future you'll be able to tell what villages you are from. Cool. Slashdot ‏@slashdot 7m Researchers Develop DNA GPS Tool To Accurately Trace Geographical Ancestry http://bit.ly/1i6jRHI "An international team of scientists has developed a process that allows them to pinpoint a person's geographical origin going back 1,000 years. Known as the Geographic Population Structure (GPS) tool, the method is accurate enough to locate the village from which the subject's ancestors came, and has significant implications for personalized medical treatment."

Posted by: Costanza Defense at May 03, 2014 01:54 PM (ZPrif)

78 "MUMR, if you are so dang unhappy with the weekend content, why do you waste your time dropping by?"
-Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 05:05 PM (DmNpO)

There's something "off" about that guy. I'd let him in my yard, but he'd be jiggling handles and checking locks soon after.

He's like Rain Man with More Screaming and fewer Cards Counted.

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 03, 2014 01:55 PM (lq3Ak)

79 One more caution. Can't stand Costas and I was born in KY. Watching Talladega.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:56 PM (/djtm)

80 Mebbe not.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:57 PM (/djtm)

81 And Sadler takes it.,

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 03, 2014 01:57 PM (ojnk6)

82 Hell yeah!

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 01:58 PM (/djtm)

83 Why are people are buying new cars? Simple. We are in year 6 of a shitty economy. People have put off purchasing a new car as long as they can, and now they need to replace their cars. Since car sales have been anemic since 2008, there are few used cars to be sold, and those available are not much less than a new car. My Jeep Grand Cherokee finally got to the point where I was almost paying as much in repairs as a new car would cost, so we traded it in on a Ford Explorer. As for Mitsubishi, they make fabulous cars. I had an 89 Montero that I traded on my 99 Grand Cherokee that was almost maintenance free. Oil, fluids, tires, battery and radio were the only things replaced on it, and that thing was a monster in the snow. Back in 94, we bought the Mrs an Eclipse, and the only real maintenance has been fluids, tires, battery, belts, and a new paint job. 20 years later, she still drives it everyday to work, and does not want to get a new one. We would most definitely look at Mitsubishi if they make the Eclipse again.

Posted by: Ashley Judd's Puffy Scamper, formerly MrCaniac at May 03, 2014 02:00 PM (HxSXm)

84 Heh, boss is at the Derby (as usual), just had him put a 20 on Calvin Borel's 15-1 shot. Fingers crossed!!!!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:01 PM (8lmkt)

85 Posted by: Ashley Judd's Puffy Scamper, formerly MrCaniac at May 03, 2014 06:00 PM (HxSXm) Certainly can't complain when you get 20 years out of a car and still love it.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 02:02 PM (oMKp3)

86 84 Heh, boss is at the Derby (as usual), just had him put a 20 on Calvin Borel's 15-1 shot. Fingers crossed!!!! Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 06:01 PM (8lmkt) Oooooh! I'm rooting for you Peaches! What horse is Calvin riding today?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 02:03 PM (oMKp3)

87 Ride On Curlin, grammie winger. I can't help myself, I got a little thing for Calvin, always have. Pretty sure California Chrome will win. Last time I bet on that darlin' girl jockey. But, you just never know!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:04 PM (8lmkt)

88 83 Why are people are buying new cars? Few are. However the used car market is rocking. If you make $28k a year and are single and have three kids, you can get a $10k EITC.(thanks W) Might have to look around but they get a overpriced used car. No prob if you are not paying for groceries.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 02:05 PM (/djtm)

89
   I drive a 27 year old SUV.

   It's a Ramcharger, so you know styling isn't a consideration.

   There's NO rust, and I can fix any mechanical issue, so there'll be no newer vehicle in my future, unless the body suddenly dies.

   We have a Camry as the transportation module, and I can't stress enough what a great car they are even though I dislike it to drive--much too small for me.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 03, 2014 02:06 PM (SAMxH)

90 I like Calvin too Peaches.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 02:06 PM (oMKp3)

91 Mitsubishi dealers and commercials always struck me as extra crappy, but that was back in the 1980's. Are their cars reviewed well? I agree it's somewhat of a mystery that they haven't increased market share, I mean Kia and Hyundai seem to be doing well, and at least the latter makes sub-par vehicles...

Posted by: @ParisParamus at May 03, 2014 02:08 PM (dAHyr)

92 We should all use the public transit system so there are less cars on the road.

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at May 03, 2014 02:08 PM (hP/Mt)

93 Horse's owner is a true good ol' boy, too, grammie. It's just my kinda pick.

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:08 PM (8lmkt)

94 There must be an awful lot of people out there who are buying cars they really cannot afford.-NDH Not sure about car prices but I was looking at a new pickup $40,000. My 1st house cost 16k, 2nd house 29k, 3rd house 35k. Those were on 30 year notes. Hate to see what a note is for 40k on 4 year note

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at May 03, 2014 02:09 PM (h4qhp)

95 93 Horse's owner is a true good ol' boy, too, grammie. It's just my kinda pick. Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 06:08 PM (8lmkt) Is he the one that when they interviewed him, I thought he might be a moron? Big black cowboy hat?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 02:09 PM (oMKp3)

96 Hey Irongrampa! I just wanted to drop in and thank you for constantly reminding the Horde to keep their chins up. I have seen you do it several times. I am often to the point of despair about what is happening to my country. We need people like you to remind us that the place is worth fighting for.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Infused with Leftist Logic at May 03, 2014 02:12 PM (jucos)

97 Travel thread up.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 02:12 PM (oMKp3)

98 Travel thread up.

Nood! ...already?

Fast N' Furious.

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 03, 2014 02:13 PM (lq3Ak)

99 Is he the one that when they interviewed him, I thought he might be a moron? Big black cowboy hat?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 06:09 PM (oMKp3)

Pretty sure, grammie! He's an outsider and, just like that horse they drove up from Texas in the back of a pickup a couple years back, I want him to win. Love the upsets!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:13 PM (8lmkt)

100 97 Travel thread up. Posted by: grammie winger at May 03, 2014 06:12 PM (oMKp3) I travelled to AZ yesterday

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at May 03, 2014 02:14 PM (h4qhp)

101 On topic.... there is a 1977 Cadillac Eldorado Barritz for sale real near my house. Last year of the big body. I am so tempted to buy it, but I need another car like I need another hole in my head. Seems like it would be a money pit too.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Infused with Leftist Logic at May 03, 2014 02:15 PM (jucos)

102 Posted by: Truck Monkey, Infused with Leftist Logic at May 03, 2014 06:15 PM (jucos) Go for it

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at May 03, 2014 02:17 PM (h4qhp)

103 There must be an awful lot of people out there who are buying cars they really cannot afford. The same people who thought it would be a great idea to sell homes to people who couldn't afford them now sell subprime car loans. No Income? No Job? No Problem!

Posted by: kbdabear at May 03, 2014 02:18 PM (aTXUx)

104 c'mon, Calvin, ride him like you stole him!!!!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:18 PM (8lmkt)

105 There appears to be a DDOS attack taking place on the Internet. Either China testing eventual cyberwar or the NSA doing the same thing for the Progs and their future Martial Law crackdown. Either one is an attack on the United States of America - which is OK since the USA has been replaced by the USSA. In either case Representative Boehner points out we need to pass amnesty now - its job ONE.

Now back on topic: Mitsubishi's are excellent reliable vehicles - so were Oldsmobiles. Neither sold very well; go first class or go third class - never go second class.

Posted by: [/i] [/s] [/u] [/b] An Observation at May 03, 2014 02:19 PM (ylhEn)

106 The 442 in its prime was just as much a muscular beast as it's sisters in the GM lineup, the GTO, GS, Chevelle SS They were the first to offer the "Dual Gate Shifter" with it's 3 speed Turbo Hydromatic trans

Posted by: kbdabear at May 03, 2014 02:21 PM (aTXUx)

107 Stompy Boots and a Superbird pic.twitter.com/nmk80vRT8O

Posted by: kbdabear at May 03, 2014 02:22 PM (aTXUx)

108 Great pic of a 68 Camaro pic.twitter.com/U5rcH8aCDs

Posted by: kbdabear at May 03, 2014 02:23 PM (aTXUx)

109 Mean 55 Chevy pic.twitter.com/Rf7hR3AXvO

Posted by: kbdabear at May 03, 2014 02:24 PM (aTXUx)

110 5 Except that in many cases they're being forced into buying new cars that they can't afford, rather than good quality used cars that they could afford, because of... the pernicious market-distorting effect of Cash For Clunkers. Posted by: torquewrench at May 03, 2014 05:05 PM (noWW6) I like listening to Dave Ramsey but his inability to comprehend the effects of "Cash for Clunkers" on the used car market really annoys me. I just recently crossed the 100K mile threshold on my '01 RX-300. I've yet to have any major repairs and the engine and transmission have experienced nary a hiccup in the past 14 years. I attribute the latter to my ignoring Toyota's instructions of, "You should never, ever need to change your transmission fluid!" Aside from cosmetic damage from vandalism and the drivers-side leather seat finally beginning to tear on the side, it's damn near tip-top. Nevertheless, I'm beginning to window shop for its eventual replacement. I don't intend to use it as a trade-in but, rather, give it to my mom. I'm thinking that I'll go Japanese again--UAW vehicles are non-starters. Just how expensive are Mitsubishi and Nissan repairs in comparison to Honda and Toyota?

Posted by: Sandra Fluke's Solid Gold Diaphragm at May 03, 2014 02:24 PM (bHnlE)

111 Don't forget that the long term loans are huge moneymakers for the lenders. Someone walks into the dealership and says "I want a car but I can only afford $xxx per month." It's like the salesman won the lotto. Sure, we can put you in this $20,000 crapbox for 72 months at 8%! How much is that per month? Xxx Sold! Dumbasses. And I almost bought an Olds 442 in high school. I passed on it though because the key had broken off in the ignition, so all you had to do was turn the empty-looking wingnut and she would fire up. My idiot 17-yr old self thought that was a dealbreaker.

Posted by: Pilot141 at May 03, 2014 02:25 PM (Uytaa)

112 And I almost bought an Olds 442 in high school. I passed on it though because the key had broken off in the ignition, so all you had to do was turn the empty-looking wingnut and she would fire up. My idiot 17-yr old self thought that was a dealbreaker.

Posted by: Pilot141 at May 03, 2014 06:25 PM (Uytaa)

lol, we live and learn, don't we? bummer, though.

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:27 PM (8lmkt)

113 I like #3.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at May 03, 2014 02:27 PM (/djtm)

114 what the fuckity??? has pixy just turned on me? 'cause that won't end well . . . for pixy.

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:27 PM (8lmkt)

115 Posted by: Sandra Fluke's Solid Gold Diaphragm at May 03, 2014 06:24 PM (bHnlE)

Check Hyundai too.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 02:28 PM (MpP9p)

116 The car we have is about the closest thing to a basic, basic car that we could find. Kia Rio, 4 door, stick shift, crank windows, no automatic door locks. My teenage daughters' friends get so confused because they don't realize I need to physically reach over and unlock a door instead of just pushing a button. The only special thing this car has is a Sirius radio, and we don't have Sirius anymore. I can also plug my phone in with a USB cable and play music off my phone through the radio. It does have front and side curtain airbags

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at May 03, 2014 02:28 PM (yE8uc)

117 In my fourth year of driving an '01 Mitsubishi Montero Sport, currently over 200k miles on it. Runs like a champ and the only problem I've had with it is when some miscreants from LA came up and stole the cat converter. Best $3000 I've ever spent.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 03, 2014 02:29 PM (AHzA7)

118 "what the fuckity??? has pixy just turned on me? 'cause that won't end well . . . for pixy."
-Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 06:27 PM (8lmkt)

*HAH!* That happens, sometimes. I haven't been able to figure it out, at times.

Some days are better than others, and I don't know how it goes until it goes.

-I simply play defense.

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 03, 2014 02:30 PM (lq3Ak)

119 Yeah Peaches I kick myself over that decision whenever I start thinking about classic American muscle cars. Instead of a Cutlass 442 I bought an Opel GT. Talk about a hilariously bad decision!

Posted by: Pilot141 at May 03, 2014 02:31 PM (Uytaa)

120 I have known one person who consistently made money on cars: he bought 12 year old Ferraris when they reached the bottom of their value (around $65,000). He would drive them for several years and then sell them for more than he paid for them as they became rare classics. He was always driving a Ferrari, and he was making money on them. And yes, he confirms that Ferraris really are chick magnets.

Here are the Caveats: you have to have a spare $65,000 in cash to play that game - since no bank will loan you that kind of money for a 12 year old car, and if you get a poorly maintained lemon the repairs can eat up your profits and maybe even your capital. (Risk Reward - remember?)

Posted by: [/i] [/s] [/u] [/b] An Observation at May 03, 2014 02:31 PM (ylhEn)

121 115 Check Hyundai too. Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 06:28 PM (MpP9p) I certainly haven't ruled them out. I've got friends who swear by them.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke's Solid Gold Diaphragm at May 03, 2014 02:43 PM (bHnlE)

122 Instead of a Cutlass 442 I bought an Opel GT. Talk about a hilariously bad decision!

roflmao!

Posted by: Peaches at May 03, 2014 02:44 PM (8lmkt)

123 I certainly haven't ruled them out. I've got friends who swear by them.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke's Solid Gold Diaphragm at May 03, 2014 06:43 PM (bHnlE)

I own one. It has some quirks but has been very reliable.

Posted by: Vendette at May 03, 2014 02:47 PM (MpP9p)

124 Knock on wood, but I have been very happy with my 01 Chevy Monte Carlo. Besides needing a new paint job (university parking lots are dangerous!) and the normal repairs (tires, oil, battery, changed the belts every five years) it has been a great car. And it has a cassette deck! And is paid for!!

Posted by: Charlotte at May 03, 2014 02:47 PM (n6s0m)

125 Just how expensive are Mitsubishi and Nissan repairs in comparison to Honda and Toyota? *** No idea. I've never had to repair the Mitsubishi.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 02:48 PM (DmNpO)

126 We completed our Ford Truck Family yesterday! The Daddy Truck (F350) and the Mama Truck (F150) are getting a bit long-in-the-tooth, but we love them so. To extend their lives, we decided to get an efficient, used car to ride share, giving the F's a week or two off at a time. I was about to commit to a Hyundai Elantra (fully loaded) when a vision came into view! 2011 Ranger (last year they were made) black, perfect, low miles, garaged, owned by an OCD 70 year old senior. It doesn't get the mileage of a Fiesta, Accord or Corolla, but is perfect for the family! The Beast, Red and (now) Ranger...

Posted by: Spun and Murky at May 03, 2014 02:48 PM (4DCSq)

127 The Beast, Red and (now) Ranger... *** D'aww! You need to take a family portrait.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 02:50 PM (DmNpO)

128 Hey NDH, you doing a NASCAR thread for Talladega tomorrow?

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 03, 2014 02:52 PM (ojnk6)

129 Hey NDH, you doing a NASCAR thread for Talladega tomorrow? *** There may not be much to it, but yes.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 02:54 PM (DmNpO)

130 There may not be much to it, but yes. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 03, 2014 06:54 PM (DmNpO) ***** Ehhh, if you provide the room we can cover the content.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 03, 2014 02:56 PM (ojnk6)

131 I like the American Muscle, even though compared to some euro-engineering, the American cars handle like you're driving a fucking shoe.

The Corvette has always been an exception, but I've never liked the style after the '67.

The Cosworth Twin-Cam was a decent engine in search of a manufacturer. Offer me a Vega and I'll offer you MY DIRTY ASS.

...I'm just a guy with a keyboard, however. My knowledge is admittedly limited.

I got some great mileage out of a '73 Plymouth Scamp. NO performance.

I got performance out of my '84 Monte Carlo SS. NO mileage.

The Saturn SL was "The Late Nineties".

I'm fine with my '08 Saturn Vue. I no longer jump railroad tracks, nor do I "put the pedal to the metal", minus the short "On-Ramp".

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 03, 2014 03:00 PM (lq3Ak)

132 126 btw, LifeLock has been blowing up my texts today. It seems the dealership shopped the loan app around to EVERYBODY! I called and 'gently' asked if I was their first customer ever to have LL and maybe it would be a good thing to let folks know they had gone to multiple lenders for the best rate. I got a nice telephonic massage and hopes that my new truck would be teh awesome. Is it any wonder that I hate dealing with car dealerships so much?!?

Posted by: Spun and Murky at May 03, 2014 03:02 PM (4DCSq)

133 Yesterday I happened to park next to a Tesla Model S at the supermarket. It's the first time I've seen one up close. Very purty.

Posted by: rickl at May 03, 2014 03:23 PM (sdi6R)

134 btw, LifeLock has been blowing up my texts today. It seems the dealership shopped the loan app around to EVERYBODY! I called and 'gently' asked if I was their first customer ever to have LL and maybe it would be a good thing to let folks know they had gone to multiple lenders for the best rate. I got a nice telephonic massage and hopes that my new truck would be teh awesome. Is it any wonder that I hate dealing with car dealerships so much?!? Posted by: Spun and Murky at May 03, 2014 07:02 PM (4DCSq) this happened in feb when i turned in my old lease for the new...the lifelock notifications were constant ...

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at May 03, 2014 03:33 PM (u8GsB)

135 133 Yesterday I happened to park next to a Tesla Model S at the supermarket. It's the first time I've seen one up close. Very purty. Posted by: rickl at May 03, 2014 07:23 PM (sdi6R) You didn't say it was the "purty-est car ever." You'll be hearing from our lawyers.

Posted by: Tesla Motors at May 03, 2014 03:36 PM (bHnlE)

136 Quack! Quack!

Posted by: Anaheim Mighty Ducks at May 03, 2014 03:39 PM (GW/jL)

137 "When first I saw this lead about a custom car, from Moron Paul Carter, I failed to scroll down to get the full picture." NDH, that was my fault. I should have said "make sure you scroll to the end" in my tweet.

Posted by: Paul Carter at May 03, 2014 03:40 PM (cQiu8)

138 The Grand Cherokee with TDI is testing my will to boycott Chrysler over the bailout.

Posted by: Jethro at May 03, 2014 04:19 PM (xhnvX)

139 I can remember articles in car collector magazines in the late 80s making the risky prediction that someday a GTO would be worth something, so don't kick yourself about passing up a musclecar back in the day....they used to have all the "that would be a good idea" effect of a used ricer car today....I'm currently trying to sell a GTI....I think people buy new cars with long payments because nobody has any cash, it's that simple. Thanks Preezy!

Posted by: azjaeger at May 03, 2014 05:59 PM (niWgN)

140 i bought my first car about 6 months ago (age 31, finally escaped chicago where i never needed one) and financed it at 72 months. i have a great job and no debt other than the house we also just bought. there are fine reasons to take out a lengthy loan. i plan on owning the car til the wheels fall off (well beyond 72 months) and i got 2.9% interest... which is close enough to 0 to be practically free. if you can get it lower, or even get one of the 0% incentives floating around, it behooves you to make it as long a loan term as possible do i think most people getting 72 month loans are in my position? probably not. you can thank bernanke for that. the bubble will all collapse some day, but just wanted to point out there can be reasons responsible/well employed people take out these terms. after all, filthy rich obama still owes his student loans. he pretends it makes him an average person at his campaign rallies but it's all about his accountants

Posted by: firsttimemoron at May 03, 2014 08:17 PM (3BnIZ)

141 A test

Posted by: weirdflunkyonatablet at May 04, 2014 02:47 AM (YyiOI)

142 I buy them new and drive them until they are dead. You have the warranty, until they are paid for, and then you can afford the repairs, because the payments are done. Unless you happened to get stung by one of those Pennsylvania Volkswagen Rabbits...

Posted by: MarkD at May 04, 2014 05:43 AM (06gsL)

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