January 25, 2014

Surface Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapons- The Humble Depth Charge.
— Open Blogger

In spite of submarine warfare causing the British and French great distress in World War I, it wasnÂ’t until 1915 that anyone came up with an effective means of attacking a submerged U-boat, the depth charge.

You’ve seen enough movies to have a basic grasp of what a depth charge is. A cylindrical container full of explosives rolled off the back of an escort ship that detonates when it reaches a preset depth, as determined by a hydrostatic firing device (know in the business as a “firing pistol” for some reason).

But simply rolling a few depth charges off the stern of a ship over the likely position of a submarine is very unlikely to yield any real effects on the target. Most depth charges weigh between 300 and 600 pounds. Roughly 1/2 to 2/3 that weight is explosive. And to be effective, a depth charge has to detonate within about 30 to 40 feet of the submarine. Given the extremely poor state of sensors in those days, coming that close would be more a matter of chance than tactics. Indeed, between 1915 and 1917, only 9 U-boats were sunk by depth charge. The linear pattern of depth charges meant a simple turn by the U-Boat could easily remove it from danger. The solution for the escort was to widen area covered by a single attack. Perhaps two ships could make parallel depth charge attacks? But there was seldom enough ships to allow this, nor were two ships likely close enough to be able to quickly coordinate an attack. Instead, the Y-Gun depth charge projector was invented.

The Y-Gun was basically a mortar with a single charge firing into two tubes arranged in a Y-shape. In each of the tubes was a piston that ended in a broad curved “lear” (leading to the pistons being know as arbors) that nestled a depth charge. Mounted on the centerline of a destroyer, when fired, a Y-Gun would send a depth charge about 40-50 yards to both port and starboard of the ship. Even such a modest increase in the square area of a depth charge pattern greatly increased the likelihood of a successful attack.

By the end of World War I, most destroyer types had at least one and and usually two Y-Guns aboard.

By the beginning of World War II, active sonar had improved to the point that, while not terribly effective as an area search weapon, it provided decent bearing and range information for an attacking escort. But ASW planners failed to understand the importance of determining the depth of a target sub. Some estimation could be made. The shape of the sonar beam and the way it angled through the water could provide a very rough trigonometric estimation of depth. The other serious improvement in technology was the rather simple idea of splitting a Y-Gun in half. The K-Gun fired one charge to one side. The advantage of this was that K-Guns could be mounted along the sides of an escort without displacing other weapons from centerline space. Even relatively small escorts could carry four, six, even as many as ten K-Guns. Combined with two chutes of depth charges, a pattern of charges could be laid on the suspected position of the target sub.

The uncertainty of the depth of the target meant that in addition to charges being delivered along the path of the attacking escort, and to the sides via the K-Guns, the attack had to be delivered at varying depths as well. Eventually the standard attack would evolve to be a “10 charge” attack. Essentially, two overlaying diamond shape patterns (with a fifth charge in the center) at two depths, above and below the suspected depth of the sub, to sandwich the target, or catch it as it attempted to turn away.

This double diamond attack was by far the most effective depth charge of the war. It had a whopping 5% success rate of sinking or seriously damaging its target.

One of the most serious shortcomings of the depth charge as an ASW weapon was that the attacking ship would lose contact with the target, depending on its depth, at a range of from 200 yards clear out to as much as 500 yards. Counting the time needed for the ship to travel that distance, and the further delay for the charges to sink, the target sub had significant time to maneuver to escape. And the explosion of the depth charges roiled the water, meaning


Later, weÂ’ll look to weapons and sensors that addressed these shortcomings.

Crossposted at my place.


Posted by: Open Blogger at 10:06 PM | Comments (66)
Post contains 781 words, total size 5 kb.

1 We ARE a Smart. Military. Blog. after all.

Posted by: xbradtc at January 25, 2014 10:08 PM (vZdeq)

2 I'm just not seeing you get accused of stomping here.

I think the depth charge mishap scene in The Enemy Below ("I was a watchmaker, Sir...") is one of the most touching things in a very emotional movie. Yes, I know the book is a lot more cold-blooded. But how dangerous were depth-bombs to handle? It always struck me that that was a lot of explosive to be tossing around like that. Maybe it was the ash-can shape.

ClickBOOM.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at January 25, 2014 10:36 PM (xq1UY)

3 A little mood music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UZ0bPaOdbQ

Posted by: The Submarine Hat at January 25, 2014 10:43 PM (AymDN)

4 I figured the effectiveness was low, but 5%...??  Wow.  Nice late-night thread.  Thanks


Posted by: Yip at January 25, 2014 10:46 PM (/jHWN)

5 Also, added to blogroll.

Posted by: The Submarine Hat at January 25, 2014 10:47 PM (AymDN)

6 ever been near 100 pounds of explosives going off underwater ? how about the 200 pounds in a typical depth charge ... 30 - 40 feet ? you've got to be kidding ... try well over 100 feet or more effective damage radius ... the over pressure from a depth charge going off 100 feet away from a sub would easily snap pipefitings and seriously stress the hull ... and thats in shallow sub ... a sub at say 500 -600 foot depth with the water pressure it was already under would be seriously damaged by a charge at 100 feet ...

Posted by: JeffC at January 25, 2014 10:57 PM (TR6Cq)

7 Alls I knows about subs is that I prefer meatball parms

Posted by: MAx at January 25, 2014 11:05 PM (b7yum)

8 Posted by: JeffC at January 26, 2014 02:57 AM (TR6Cq) What was crush depth for a wwII era sub?

Posted by: BignJames at January 25, 2014 11:07 PM (j7iSn)

9 Some more mood music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joZaJqyl2S0

Posted by: Smash'em at January 25, 2014 11:17 PM (7WWu1)

10 Wow, a random military history post pops up in the middle of the night over a dead ONT. Not that it isn't interesting, for me it's fascinating, but why this now? Seriously, this is out of the blue and as much as I'd like to participate (and I would, this is my bread and butter, moar pls), I'm up way to late as it is. I have to bow out of a thread I find fascinating. Bad form old man, bad form.

Posted by: Weirddave at January 25, 2014 11:19 PM (N/cFh)

11 And the explosion of the depth charges roiled the water, meaning

Last big paragraph, there's a thought or two missing, either difficulty for the ship dropping the charges or increasing the difficulty verifying the position of the target in the likely event of its survival.

Posted by: Methos at January 25, 2014 11:19 PM (hO9ad)

12 Yet more mood music: "Run Silent Run Deep" by Iron Maiden: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3RdwakXGI

Posted by: 政治的な帽子 at January 25, 2014 11:21 PM (AymDN)

13 Posted by: 政治的な帽子 at January 26, 2014 03:21 AM (AymDN)

Beat me to it.

Posted by: Smash'em at January 25, 2014 11:22 PM (7WWu1)

14 > 4 I figured the effectiveness was low, but 5%...?? Wow. Nice late-night thread. Thanks Posted by: Yip 5% is HIGH. Consider how many bullets it took to kill one soldier in ww2 (thousands and thousands. Most were fired to suppress).

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at January 25, 2014 11:33 PM (h53OH)

15 > 8 Posted by: JeffC at January 26, 2014 02:57 AM (TR6Cq) What was crush depth for a wwII era sub? Posted by: BignJames 300-600 feet. Depending on the sub.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at January 25, 2014 11:35 PM (h53OH)

16 What was crush depth for a wwII era sub?

 

Posted by: BignJames at January 26, 2014 03:07 AM

 

 

Type-7 U-boat... somewhere below 820 feet approx confirmed

 

Type-9 U-boat... somewhere below 1000 feet approx estimate

 

Type-21 U-boat... somewhere below 1500 to 2000 feet approx estimate

Posted by: otho at January 25, 2014 11:43 PM (9gNQd)

17 sorry. Type 21 would be 1200 to 1500 feet approx estimate.

Posted by: otho at January 25, 2014 11:56 PM (9gNQd)

18 Some parting mood music: "Dive, Dive, Dive" by Bruce Dickinson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lRyqd3zF9c

Posted by: The Submersible Hat at January 26, 2014 12:09 AM (AymDN)

19 Then they developed the Hedge Hog. http://tinyurl.com/6x9lpl

This was a throw ahead contact exploding device.

And also sonar guided torpedoes.

(yes Virginia, surface ships can have torpedoes too.)

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Unexpurgated Edition) at January 26, 2014 12:54 AM (LSDdO)

20 ASW = Agonizingly Slow Warfare

I was a Navy EW.  Picked up an intermittent sub radar tailing us off the coast of Ecuador; Fire Control confirmed intermittent radar return consistent with a periscope.  Time?  About 0130.  We set condition 2AS, rousted the STGs, and got things running.  The STGC was pissed that he got awakened, told the CO "ain't shit out there" after about 20 minutes. CO orders secure from 2AS.  On-watch FC and I continue to track the sub for the next 3 hours, tailing right behind at about 500-600 yards.  My guess?  A Chilean boat getting in some good training time.

Posted by: Country Singer at January 26, 2014 01:29 AM (CWquH)

21 My uncle was a gunner in WWII. One of the things he did best was set depth charges. He was a skinny 17 year old state ranked track and field athlete when volunteered in Jan 1942. The USN encouraged him to continue to develop physically during four and a half years he was in the Pacific. He ran circles on the ships while at sea. Most of those naval gunners were superb athletes. When he started college he was a walk on running back although he had never played football before. He was an agriculture prof for many years and retired in 2000. He is planning on replanting a pasture with some new seed this spring.

Posted by: Lester at January 26, 2014 02:03 AM (2UPXV)

22 The difference between a fuze and a firing pistol is that a fuze contains explosive elements and a pistol does not.  The US traditionally uses fuzes and, at least during WW II, the British were more inclined to use pistols at least to set off aircraft bombs.  Considering that a typical bomb fuze contains as much high explosive as a hand grenade, I can see how on a ship you might want to go with a firing pistol instead.


And, yes, let's talk about the hedgehog because it is way cooler than big oil drums full of TNT.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at January 26, 2014 03:05 AM (BcCwi)

23

5% means what?  If you're chasing a sub, you make two, three runs dropping patterns each time. Maybe there are two ASW ships, corvettes, DE, DD.  So if we have four patterns, we have a 20-% chance.

Meantime, the convoy is plodding on, the survivors, and the sub has to stay submerged, chewing through the battery charge, going 8 knots tops and that only for a short time due to power constraints.  So the engagement is over.  To catch up, the sub has to surface and run on diesel, at which time it becomes a poorly armed surface combatant subject to discovery by radar and eyeball.  It could take a long dogleg, angling away from the convoy over the horizon, and then coming back in front of it, submerge and wait for the convoy to come close. Which is why zigzag.  And if it's within air cover or the convoy and thus the next engagement runs out of the no-air black hole--the mid Atlantic black hole was maybe a thousand miles wide, air on each side--then running on the surface was chancy, and it may be forced down, even if not engaged, if an aircraft showed up, losing time.

Germans lost about 75% of their boats.  Still, the numbers of ships lost, and the amount of material sunk with them is so huge as to be unbelievable.
See two fictional accounts... The Cruel Sea and H.M.S. Ulysses.  Had a Coastie uncle in the North Atlantic and said they are both very realistic as to the combat issues.

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at January 26, 2014 03:07 AM (0EYmc)

24 What about those poor fishies? Didn't anybody care?

Posted by: Pendejo Grande at January 26, 2014 03:09 AM (LwBq5)

25 To plow or not to plow that is the question.
Is it better to endure the daily grind, hour by hour,
or refrain from participation in the racing of rats.

For what is cheese, that we struggle mightily so to obtain
that momentary taste or smell of fungus and rotting milk solids.
Is it because it's 'free' government cheese. Do we struggle to get something for nothing? Is it still 'free' if we must organize and agitate, and agonize over words?

Yay tho I refuse to play the game, I am still captive to the rules.
Until I can break free of the rules, I am not free. 

This morning is Sunday.
I will not plow today.
I am free.

Posted by: Urma ne Somniac at January 26, 2014 03:10 AM (IEoW5)

26 And, yes, let's talk about the hedgehog because it is way cooler than big oil drums full of TNT. Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at January 26, 2014 07:05 AM (BcCwi) Didn't the Hedgehog fire a pattern of mortar projectiles that were impact fuzed? This eliminated the problem of estimating the depth of the target. I read a book a couple of years ago (title something like Engineering Victory) that devoted a very lengthy chapter about the development of the Allied ASW campaign in WWII. The author made the claim that the hedgehog was a vitally important invention in tipping the scales to the Allies.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at January 26, 2014 03:26 AM (sEKS8)

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 26, 2014 04:00 AM (T2V/1)

28 Has Vic been playing with the invisible ink again?

Posted by: Lloyd Loar at January 26, 2014 04:13 AM (9u2hL)

29 Has Vic been playing with the invisible ink again? Well, sure. The news today is super top secret.

Posted by: RickZ at January 26, 2014 04:15 AM (PpAf4)

30 Good Morning, Why isn't there a new thread?

Posted by: Carol at January 26, 2014 04:17 AM (z4WKX)

31 " And the explosion of the depth charges roiled the water, meaning.........." ...you cut it off at 'meaning'... Am I the only one that read the whole thing?

Posted by: CanaDave at January 26, 2014 04:18 AM (kPpHE)

32 My grandfather was a marine in the Pacific in WWII. Their greatest fear was being attacked by a sub while waiting to deploy to shore. He had some funny stories about boredom and sea survival training. I miss him.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at January 26, 2014 04:18 AM (l0lja)

33 watched a Millius flick, Farewell to the King (WWII Pacific Theater, Nolte) last night (Choose Life!) woke up and read of subs and depth charges Interesting reminders 5% translation @ 23 Aubrey makes sense of it

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 26, 2014 04:18 AM (MhA4j)

34 31 Good writing has some cliffhangers. He probably had to take a leak and lost his train of thought.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at January 26, 2014 04:20 AM (l0lja)

35 31 link to finish the sentence cut/paste and the image between got in the way, likely

Posted by: Dept. Of Acuracy at January 26, 2014 04:22 AM (MhA4j)

36 "31 Good writing has some cliffhangers. He probably had to take a leak and lost his train of thought." I thought maybe it was a ploy to get us over to his blog to read the rest...it worked... Interesting post...+1

Posted by: CanaDave at January 26, 2014 04:22 AM (kPpHE)

37 Andy running late this morning.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 26, 2014 04:23 AM (T2V/1)

38 Comment 11 covered the missing text after the word meaning. Didn't you read the comments?

Posted by: Roger at January 26, 2014 04:24 AM (OpZPd)

39 I blame skunk grade whacky tobacky from CO...what was I going to say?

Posted by: Lloyd Loar at January 26, 2014 04:24 AM (9u2hL)

40 "38 Comment 11 covered the missing text after the word meaning. Didn't you read the comments?" ...I did scan through the comments before...I guess I missed that though...

Posted by: CanaDave at January 26, 2014 04:25 AM (kPpHE)

41
Sort of related.  I've wasted hours on this site:

http://tinyurl.com/nn7rqw2


Posted by: Early Cuyler at January 26, 2014 04:25 AM (EV+ZN)

42 And one thing is for sure; I am damned tired of sub-freezing weather.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 26, 2014 04:26 AM (T2V/1)

43 #42

One of the few things they haven't managed to wreck about Southern California yet. But just watch. They'll probably push some geo-engineering scheme that accelerates the onset of a new ice age.

Posted by: Epobirs at January 26, 2014 04:28 AM (bPxS6)

44 In each of the tubes was a piston that ended in a broad curved “lear” (leading to the pistons being know as arbors).... Leaf? And the explosion of the depth charges roiled the water, meaning.... Crossposted at my place. The whole long post was just click bait? I'm with WeirdDave on the timing of this, except mid-day I might get to read it, but wouldn't have time to add this brilliant commentary. I suspect XBradTC was sleep-posting? But you might charge I'm out of my depth to think that.

Posted by: webworker at January 26, 2014 04:28 AM (qG1i2)

45 >>ClickBOOM. Is that a new type of cereal?

Posted by: Y-not at January 26, 2014 04:29 AM (zDsvJ)

46 >>Am I the only one that read the whole thing? I was afraid of running into depth charges.

Posted by: Mama AJ at January 26, 2014 04:29 AM (SUKHu)

47 Sort of off topic,   but I was able to get an up close look at this little sub last year.   It would be like hunting a needle in a haystack.


http://tinyurl.com/lee86xd

Posted by: Lloyd Loar at January 26, 2014 04:30 AM (9u2hL)

48 59F in San Diego right now (5:30 am).  High today of 67F.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 26, 2014 04:30 AM (T2V/1)

49 Its up!

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 26, 2014 04:31 AM (T2V/1)

50 Um, isn't this why they eventually invented hedgehogs anti-submarine mortars?

Posted by: BlueFalcon in Boston at January 26, 2014 04:33 AM (A1Dcl)

51 morning thread is up folks

Posted by: Vic[/i] at January 26, 2014 04:37 AM (T2V/1)

52 Also, to all writers, unless you're using USA or BHO, specifiy the First Time You Use It (FTYUI). How many acronyms do you think folks have in their heads - even us civilians? Okay, so I'm slow. I kept trying to make ASW start with anthro and end with warming. Anti Submarine Warfare was just too obvious.

Posted by: webworker at January 26, 2014 04:44 AM (Jh9QN)

53 If you've never been there, below the surface is all sound, you hear everything. "Conn, sonar, contact x is biologics." You hear whales and shrimp, but mostly you hear shipping. Surface ships propulsion cavitating is akin to yelling in a library, you can hear it loud and clear from a long long way away. Going through the straights of Gibraltar submerged sounds like being in a drum. I would hate to be anywhere near a depth charge, probably be lots of ruptured ear drums, even if the charges never got close enough to damage the sub.

Posted by: traye at January 26, 2014 04:44 AM (E3WuV)

54 When he started college he was a walk on running back although he had never played football before. He was an agriculture prof for many years and retired in 2000. He is planning on replanting a pasture with some new seed this spring. -Lester at Janua To me, such stories are the true victory of WW2. The hero's true reward, a settled life, seeing grandkids. For the sake of "that's what we fought for," as well as for the sake of all those who didn't survive to enjoy victory.

Posted by: webworker at January 26, 2014 04:44 AM (Jh9QN)

55 Aw, I missed this thread. Very interesting. I'm fascinated by the number of new kinds of weapons that were developed in World War I.

Posted by: rickl at January 26, 2014 04:49 AM (sdi6R)

56 In addition to weapons and sensors, great advances were made in search theory, and simple manual calculators (circular slide rules) to improve the likelyhood of an intercept.  The fact that subs of that era had a very limited range of undersea speeds and duration helped immensely.

Posted by: Jean at January 26, 2014 05:10 AM (4JkHl)

57 I get it, you left off the last few words in order to "inspire" us to look at the crosspost. That's cool.

Posted by: Tom Servo at January 26, 2014 05:17 AM (hTDbY)

58 Foo. P-3s could carry B57 nucular depth charges. Now THOSE were depth charges!

Posted by: J. Moses Browning at January 26, 2014 05:42 AM (KMEac)

59 Typical bitch'n'moan morons.

I, for one, look forward to our new late-Saturday-night ASW thread. Because, by that time, a fellow who isn't laying down a K-gun pattern of his own is probably chewing sea-fat in the Chief's Mess anyway. Summer whites notwithstanding.

Thanks, XBrad! Great post except you robbed me of a "firstest" I richly deserved.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at January 26, 2014 06:03 AM (xq1UY)

60 Hopefully the mighty "Hedgehog" will soon make an appearance, and yes I DO know why it is named that in case the author does not, which I doubt.

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at January 26, 2014 06:17 AM (qIFL7)

61 Gosh Did Xbradtc suffer a seizure?

Posted by: TexasJew at January 26, 2014 06:36 AM (U+u4A)

62 If you visit Chicago, by all means do NOT pass up the chance to tour the U-505 at the Museum of Science & Industry. A genuwine WWII U-boat, captured on the high seas. As a bonus: the tour guides ACTUALLY KNOW STUFF. To me the most affecting part of the exhibit was the display about Captain Gallery of the carrier Guadalcanal, who captured the U-505. Just compare his official portrait photo with the candid shots of him on the deck of his ship. He looks about fifty years older on duty.

Posted by: Trimegistus at January 26, 2014 07:06 AM (+ek/G)

63 JeffC, you would be incorrect on the damage radius.  Some minor damage might occur at up to 100' away, but you really did need to be within 30-40 feet to cause any real damage, and only 10-12 feet killing radius.  Shallow sea floor (think estuaries, parts of North Sea or English Channel) actually enhances the effects of depth charges because of the shock waves reflected off the bottom.

Posted by: Larry at January 26, 2014 07:26 AM (r3R7o)

64 The USS England during WW2 sunk 5 or 6 Jap subs in like a week using her hedgehog and depth charges. Mostly hedgehog. Check out her history on DANF.

Posted by: The Man From Athens at January 26, 2014 08:06 AM (nsqLv)

65 My dad was on subs all during the War and his boat was at Pearl for the start. He told me once of what it's like on the inside while being depth charged. He said the oddest thing was even at depth, you could see the flash of the exploding depth charge. Typically they were on minimum power so it was dark throughout the boat. The concussion was enough to break the seal on the hatch and let the light in, but not so much as to let in water. He was a heck of a guy. I miss him still.

Posted by: Diogenes at January 26, 2014 08:50 AM (8mnOK)

66 I agree that one of the best movies on destroyer versus sub is The Enemy Below starring Robert Mitchum. and Curt Jurgens.

Posted by: Freddie Sykes at January 26, 2014 10:25 AM (sntaz)

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