January 28, 2014

Two Days in January
— Dave in Texas

Today, Jan 28 marks the 28th anniversary of the loss of the space shuttle Challenger and her crew. Yesterday on Jan 27, 19 years earlier a fire broke out in the Apollo 1 command module during a launch test that killed the three crewmembers scheduled to fly that mission a month later. Two dates next to each other on a calendar separated by almost 2 decades.

4 days from now on Feb. 1 will be the 11th year since the breakup and disintigration of the space shuttle Columbia in the skies over Texas during their re-entry.

47 years seems like a very long time, but to put that into context it was a mere 66 years from the Wright Brothers first successful flight at Kittyhawk to Neil Armstrong's first step onto the moon.

There were other training accidents. Almost a year before the Apollo 1 fire, astronauts Elliott See and Charlie Bassett died when their T-38 trainer crashed into the McDonnell Aircraft building at Lambert Field in St. Louis where their Gemini space capsules were being built. And later in October of that same year astronaut C.C. Williams died in another T-38 crash in Huntsville.

Over at Meathead, Mollie Hemingway asks some interesting questions about risk aversion and meaningful accomplishments in the space program. Her basic point is if we expect to accomplish great things we have to become more comfortable with the idea of people dying in space.

I'm not sure I agree with her entirely but I absolutely do agree NASA has become just another large overfed federal agency - mostly interested in self-preservation and funding. You can argue for more private sector involvement (I would) but if it's just NASA letting out contracts that's still the government. To be effective and competitive it'll have to be done without NASA writing the checks.

I don't know if we should get more comfortable with the idea of people dying in space so much as we should understand the nature of the job means the risks are greater. Hemingway mentioned in her twitter feed she was surprised so many astronauts agreed with her. I'm not. They're aggressive and passionate about what they do, they train hard, and they're usually pretty smart. They know the risks far better than most and still choose to do the job.

Roll call below the fold: T-38 crash in St. Louis, Feb 28, 1966

Elliott McKay See, Jr. Commander, USNR. Slated as Command Pilot of Gemini 9
Charles Arthur Bassett II, Captain, USAF. Slated as Pilot, Gemini 9

Apollo 1 Fire, Jan 27, 1967

Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom, Lt. Colonel, USAF. Pilot Project Mercury (Liberty Bell 7, the second Mercury mission), Command Pilot Gemini 3, Apollo 1
Edward H. White, Lt. Colonel, USAF. Pilot Gemini 4, Senior Pilot Apollo 1. He was the first American to walk in space.
Roger Bruce Chaffee, Lt. Commander, USN. Pilot Apollo 1

T-38 crash near Huntsville Alabama Tallahassee Florida, Oct. 5 1967

Clifton Curtis "C.C." Williams, Major, USMC. Backup pilot for Gemini 10

Space Shuttle Challenger mission STS-51-L, explosion after launch Cape Canaveral, Jan 28, 1986

Francis Richard "Dick" Scobie, Lt. Colonel USAF. Pilot STS-41-C, Commander STS-51-L
Michael John Smith, Captain, USN. Pilot STS-51-L
Ronald Irvin McNair, PhD. Mission Specialist STS-41B, STS-51-L
Ellison Shoji Onizuka, Lt. Colonel, USAF. Mission Specialist STS-51-C, STS-51-L
Judith Arlene Resnick, PhD. Mission Specialist STS-41-D, STS-51-L
Gregory Bruce Jarvis, Captain, USAF. Payload Specialist STS-51-L
Sharon Christa McAuliffe, Teacher, Concord High School. Payload Specialist STS-51-L

Space Shuttle Columbia mission STS-107, destroyed during re-entry over Texas and Louisiana Feb 1, 2003

Richard Douglas Husband, Colonel, USAF. Pilot STS-96, Commander STS-107
William Cameron "Willie" McCool, Commander, USN. Pilot STS-107
Michael Phillip Anderson, Lt. Colonel, USAF. Mission Specialist STS-89, STS-107
Kalpana Chawla, PhD. Mission Specialist STS-87, STS-107
David McDowell Brown, Captain, USN. Mission Specialist STS-107
Laurel Blair Salton Clark, Captain, USN. Mission Specialist STS-107
Ilan Ramon, Colonel, Israeli Air Force. Payload Specialist STS-107

Posted by: Dave in Texas at 12:45 PM | Comments (247)
Post contains 662 words, total size 4 kb.

1 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 12:47 PM (PYAXX)

2 Oneth?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 12:47 PM (0HooB)

3 Shazbot!

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 12:48 PM (0HooB)

4 NASA Space Program. RIP.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 12:48 PM (PYAXX)

5 Ladies and Gentlemen, I'd planned to speak to you tonight to report on the state of the Union, but the events of earlier today have led me to change those plans. Today is a day for mourning and remembering. Nancy and I are pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle Challenger. We know we share this pain with all of the people of our country. This is truly a national loss. Nineteen years ago, almost to the day, we lost three astronauts in a terrible accident on the ground. But, we've never lost an astronaut in flight; we've never had a tragedy like this. And perhaps we've forgotten the courage it took for the crew of the shuttle; but they, the Challenger Seven, were aware of the dangers, but overcame them and did their jobs brilliantly. We mourn seven heroes: Michael Smith, Dick Scobee, Judith Resnik, Ronald McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Gregory Jarvis, and Christa McAuliffe. We mourn their loss as a nation together. For the families of the seven, we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special grace, that special spirit that says, 'Give me a challenge and I'll meet it with joy.' They had a hunger to explore the universe and discover its truths. They wished to serve, and they did. They served all of us. We've grown used to wonders in this century. It's hard to dazzle us. But for twenty-five years the United States space program has been doing just that. We've grown used to the idea of space, and perhaps we forget that we've only just begun. We're still pioneers. They, the members of the Challenger crew, were pioneers. And I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it is hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons. The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted; it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future, and we'll continue to follow them. I've always had great faith in and respect for our space program, and what happened today does nothing to diminish it. We don't hide our space program. We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in public. That's the way freedom is, and we wouldn't change it for a minute. We'll continue our quest in space. There will be more shuttle flights and more shuttle crews and, yes, more volunteers, more civilians, more teachers in space. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue. I want to add that I wish I could talk to every man and woman who works for NASA or who worked on this mission and tell them: "Your dedication and professionalism have moved and impressed us for decades. And we know of your anguish. We share it." There's a coincidence today. On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime the great frontiers were the oceans, and a historian later said, 'He lived by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it.' Well, today we can say of the Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete. The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honoured us by the manner in which they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them, this morning, as they prepared for the journey and waved goodbye and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.' Thank you. President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 12:49 PM (t3UFN)

6 NASA has become just another large overfed federal agency - mostly interested in self-preservation and funding.

They've given up on Muslim self-esteem?

Posted by: HR at January 28, 2014 12:50 PM (ZKzrr)

7 Her basic point is if we expect to accomplish great things we have to become more comfortable with the idea of people dying in space. I'm not sure I agree with her entirely Stated that way, I don't. We should never become "comfortable" with people dying- even when their sacrifices are incredibly meaningful. Nevertheless, I think we need to be more accepting of such sacrifices- more willing and ready to make them (as long as they're still for a worthwhile goal).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 12:50 PM (PYAXX)

8 Yeah I'm probably just tripping over her word choice, which is nitpicky.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at January 28, 2014 12:51 PM (WvXvd)

9 Still remember seeing the astronaut memorial at KSC the first time, back in 1993. My one takeaway was how much room there was for more names.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at January 28, 2014 12:51 PM (XrGnJ)

10 President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986


Can you imagine SCOAMF making such a heartfelt speech?  I sure can't.

Posted by: DangerGirl at January 28, 2014 12:52 PM (GrtrJ)

11 Space Shuttle Columbia mission STS-107, destroyed during re-entry over Texas and Louisiana Feb 1, 2003

This was when we finally realized that NASA had never solved the problems it had with the shuttle from Day One and had been flying it for 20 years with the strategy of 'Let's Hope That Doesn't Happen.'

Posted by: --- at January 28, 2014 12:52 PM (MMC8r)

12 NASA's unmanned division is doing good work. I say this because a NASA engineer blew up at me after I wondered what the hell the agency was doing, anyway in earshot.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 12:52 PM (ZEvg7)

13 In this life you either move ahead and excel or drop back. There really is no middle ground

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 12:52 PM (t3UFN)

14 Has NASA yet issued its monthly press release claiming that they might have found evidence that might indicate that there might have been life on Mars, so please give us more money?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 12:53 PM (SY2Kh)

15 Yeah I'm probably just tripping over her word choice, which is nitpicky. Words have meaning. If we want them to continue to have meaning, we must insist that they be used correctly. I'm growing less and less willing to avoid the "nitpicking" label and more and more willing to become comfortable with it.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 12:53 PM (PYAXX)

16 Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 04:49 PM (t3UFN) Dang it's dusty in here. Anyone have a Kleenex?

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 12:53 PM (PYAXX)

17 Rest in peace. Vaya con dios.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 12:54 PM (ndIek)

18 President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 04:49 PM (t3UFN)


Very nice, very classy, very touching.  Thank you for posting it, Nevergiveup!

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 12:54 PM (8lmkt)

19 Maybe the answer to why the manned space program is floundering is pretty simple. It was about beating the Soviets. People like to wax eloquent nowadays about how JFK "united the country around a dream" and some 21st century president should totally do that as well, but ChiComs do not a compelling scientific enemy make.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 12:54 PM (ZEvg7)

20 Re: the Reagan speech as in comment 5. Great speech. But shouldn't it have been entirely about himself? Isn't that what awesome people do?

Posted by: Northernlurker at January 28, 2014 12:55 PM (Xmw9g)

21 The guys who publish NASA Tech Reviews are OK, beyond that?

Posted by: Jean at January 28, 2014 12:55 PM (4JkHl)

22 Let me be clear.  If I, uhh, if I was on a shuttle that held me and some other folks, ummm, I would take out my pen and phone and, uhh, umm, take action so I would not perish on my shuttle.  Uhh, umm, screw those other folks on the shuttle as I, umm, ahh, umm, would be safe and available for more selfies.

Posted by: Duh One and Only Baraka, Space Kadet at January 28, 2014 12:56 PM (GgPam)

23 T-38 crash in St. Louis, Feb 28, 1966 My Dad was working at Lambert Field at that time. I'll have to give him a call to hear what he knows.

Posted by: tbodie at January 28, 2014 12:56 PM (CQzvT)

24 I can't speak for others, but as a Christian who believes in the Afterlife, I don't have a particular fear of death, and nearly everyone who reports a near-death experience mentions being surrounded by loved ones passed. There is such a thing as Noble Death. And Reagan's reminder to children in the Challenger Speech above needs to be repeated occasionally so we adults don't forget.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 12:56 PM (0HooB)

25 but ChiComs do not a compelling scientific enemy make. Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 04:54 PM (ZEvg7) Yeah and we didn't think the little nips would be much of a problem either. Appearances can be decieving

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 12:56 PM (t3UFN)

26 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/834126/posts

Posted by: backhoe at January 28, 2014 12:58 PM (ULH4o)

27 Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 04:49 PM (t3UFN) Reagan made his share of mistakes but he knew how to be President. I miss having a person like that in the chair more than anything.

Posted by: JackStraw at January 28, 2014 12:58 PM (g1DWB)

28 My Dad was working at Lambert Field at that time. I'll have to give him a call to hear what he knows.

Ask if there was a "Hey ya'll, watch this!" involved.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 12:58 PM (SY2Kh)

29 NASA miserably failed with Apollo One.  The 204 Investigation showed lack of leadership and questionable decisions.  From how North American Aviation won the contract for the Apollo CSM to the changes in design.  Apollo One was a Block One vehicle only to be used in Earth orbit since there had been so many changes already that had passed that capsule by.  Then there was the complacency on the pad, no fire crews standing by since the bird was not fueled.

Forward to Challenger.   Again questionable decisions that were dictated by non-mission criteria.  OV-99 had already suffered launch delays and NASA decided to roll the dice on known SRB issues to launch the first teacher into space.  The dice came up snake-eyes and seven died.

Columbia suffered a foam impact event.  Something that had been known to be happening but nothing had been done to fix.  The fuel tank foam insulation had been changed to a CFC free version even though NASA had a waiver.  And then those on the ground made the call to not even investigate if the foam had done any damage.  They willingly condemned those seven to death with that one decision.  Which is a damning indictment on why NASA is a dinosaur - the men who had fought to save Apollo 13 had been replaced by drones who allowed seven to die without lifting a finger to even try to save them.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 12:59 PM (DIg/e)

30 I remember Reagan giving that speech. Short, eloquent, and heartfelt.

Three things you will never see in any speech by the current JEFOTUS.

To all those brave pioneers who gave their lives in the service of exploration and their country: rest in peace.

Posted by: Vortex Lovera at January 28, 2014 12:59 PM (wtvvX)

31 Her basic point is if we expect to accomplish great things we have to become more comfortable with the idea of people dying in space.

To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before, a few Red Shirts have to be sacrificed to the Grim Reaper.

Posted by: Capt. James T Kirk at January 28, 2014 12:59 PM (aTXUx)

32 This was when we finally realized that NASA had never solved the problems it had with the shuttle from Day One and had been flying it for 20 years with the strategy of 'Let's Hope That Doesn't Happen.' That's what happens when all those engineers who are in Congress determine that the crew is expendable in the first two minutes of flight.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 01:00 PM (0HooB)

33 There is such a thing as Noble Death. And Reagan's reminder to children in the Challenger Speech above needs to be repeated occasionally so we adults don't forget. Absolutely. One of the things I most despise about the prog/commies is their degradation of the language. When people of good character say "Sometimes sacrifices are necessary," they mean "sometimes a person has to choose to make a sacrifice- or choose to be willing to be sacrificed." When prog/commies say it, they always mean someone else should be willing to be sacrificed- or should be sacrificed willing or not.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:00 PM (PYAXX)

34 Dammit, why are you folks, umm, ahh, ahh, not praising me?  I was busy choomin' back in those days.  I got high.  Oh Reggie, hold me!  <did I just say that out loud?>  I'm a real man.  Got reservations at Man Country I does.

Posted by: Duh One and Only Baraka, Space Kadet at January 28, 2014 01:00 PM (GgPam)

35 I remember the day of the Apollo 1 fire. It was a snowy cold day like it is right now. It hit me hard. I don't remember there being any talk of giving up.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 28, 2014 01:01 PM (P6QsQ)

36 Her basic point is if we expect to accomplish great things we have to become more comfortable with the idea of people dying in space.

Do not grieve .. it was logical ...

The Needs of the Many ... Outweighed the Needs of the Few ... or The One


Posted by: Capt Spock at January 28, 2014 01:01 PM (aTXUx)

37 President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986  Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 04:49 PM (t3UFN) Damn, I miss that man. And that leadership.

Posted by: tbodie at January 28, 2014 01:01 PM (u1ZOY)

38

Story goes bad weather, poor visibility and gettin worse pilot See attempted an instrument approach with Tom Stafford and Gene Cernan in another T-38 on their wing.  They cleared the cloud layer and saw they had overshot so See banked around trying to stay close to the deck to keep the field visible.  He was too low and they clipped a building.  By then Stafford had pulled up out of the way and landed later.

Alan Shephard led the investigation board.. ultimately they concluded pilot error.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at January 28, 2014 01:01 PM (WvXvd)

39 Yeah and we didn't think the little nips would be much of a problem either. Appearances can be decieving Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 04:56 PM (t3UFN) Well, they need to hurry up and start doing SOMETHING to fire us up. Launch Laika Jr to Mars. Anything.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:01 PM (ZEvg7)

40

Any time there's a significant risk to an activity, people are going to die doing it.  It doesn't mean that we should be skittish about it, or do it less, or stop doing it altogether.  If we're ever going to advance as a species, once we've done the proper work of analyzing and mitigating them so that we're not taking unnecessary risks, we have to assume the risk and get things done.  I'll happily put my money where my mouth is, any time they want to cram me into a rocket and a spacesuit with a reasonable chance of returning, send me!

Posted by: Cato at January 28, 2014 01:02 PM (i+Vw2)

41 Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 04:53 PM (SY2Kh) No...... but they found the Jelly donut I threw at their Mars Lander.... Damn thing messed up my rock garden, and that makes me SOOOO ANGRY!!!

Posted by: Marvin at January 28, 2014 01:02 PM (84gbM)

42 But we have astronauts willing to go to Mars and die. All in the interest of carrying the football of science and moving it a couple of yards further down the field of discovery. The ultimate in teamwork, imho.

But outside of the 'Gee Whiz' factor, in what way does a manned expedition advance science in a way that an unmanned mission can not?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:03 PM (SY2Kh)

43 "waved goodbye and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.' President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986 Posted by: Nevergiveup" These aren't allergies--I'm crying. God bless all those that sacrificed their lives so the human race could literally expand its horizons.

Posted by: Hobbitopoly at January 28, 2014 01:03 PM (080XV)

44

The first indication  for me  that this nation was purposely being degraded by this regime is when they retired the shuttle program.  Whether or not they were the best built vehicles is worthy of argument, but what can't be argued is the fact that we  (America) gave up part of our  identity when Dear Leader took us out of the manned-mission space capability.

 

The shuttles still had many missions left in them, at least until  the civilian designers and manufacturers could build more up-to-date systems.

Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (AIfv5)

45 January and February seem to be bad months for space travel, I'll say that.

Posted by: soothsayer, they chanted at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (qbQhu)

46 Apollo 13 - NASA Flight Director Gene Kranz. We could use more like him.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (ndIek)

47 Isn't the Columbia disaster a victim of the Green movement?  I thought that they had to switch to some more "environmentally safe" foam for launch and it didn't break away the same as the old foam which is what damaged the heat shield.

Posted by: Hollowhead at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (LI48c)

48 Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:03 PM (SY2Kh) Colonizing Mars (yeah, I said it) is going to require human beings. Learning if it's even technologically possible will ALSO require human beings.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (PYAXX)

49

/off hollowidiot  sock

Posted by: buzzion at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (LI48c)

50 in what way does a manned expedition advance science in a way that an unmanned mission can not?

Can't study long-term effects of space travel on the human body by sending robots.

Posted by: HR at January 28, 2014 01:04 PM (ZKzrr)

51 Anna already covered it, they created the Columbia problem with the reformulated foam insulation.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at January 28, 2014 01:05 PM (WvXvd)

52 But outside of the 'Gee Whiz' factor, in what way does a manned expedition advance science in a way that an unmanned mission can not? Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:03 PM (SY2Kh) It lays the groundwork for a Martian New England colony that will eventually rebel from the American Empire.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:06 PM (ZEvg7)

53 in what way does a manned expedition advance science in a way that an unmanned mission can not? Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:03 PM (SY2Kh) Well.... you think a Mars Rover excites the Dejah Thoris types???

Posted by: John Carter at January 28, 2014 01:06 PM (84gbM)

54 I saw the Space Shuttle Challenger blow up. I was living in Jacksonville at the time and had heard that you could see the Shuttles launch on a clear day. The day was clear so I went outside to look. I could see the trail of the rising Shuttle then suddenly what looked like a weird kind of smoke bloom. At the time, I thought something along the lines of- "That looks weird. I guess that was the Shuttle separating. Though it looks like it blew up. Huh." I went back inside and sure enough the Shuttle had blown up. No point to the story. Just as I tell the kiddos, when bad things happen they happen very fast and when you don't expect it. So, try to be prepared and stay alert. Not that that would've helped in this case.

Posted by: naturalfake at January 28, 2014 01:07 PM (0cMkb)

55 Someone should write a book about that. 

Posted by: Formerly known as Skeptic at January 28, 2014 01:07 PM (91XRk)

56

5...[from Reagan's quote:] ..."We don't hide our space program. We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in public."

 

Yeah, we have no way of knowing how many people have died in Russia's space program.

They've released some of the names...but we'll never know for sure if it is a complete list.

 

And then there's China...which keeps a tight lid on any information that might make them look bad. 

 

Thanks, Nevergiveup, for posting that.

I remember watching him give that speech, feeling raw at the time over the tragedy...and Reagan's words and demeanor were comforting.

 

Posted by: wheatie at January 28, 2014 01:07 PM (Wq5le)

57 Management had a waiver, they used the new green foam for political purposes, to show their commitment to Gaia.  That mission was an updated drudical alter.

Posted by: Jean at January 28, 2014 01:07 PM (4JkHl)

58 The three remaining shuttles - Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour - had about 200 missions left on their airframes.

But with only three and NASA was already constantly robbing parts from one shuttle to launch another, the ability to keep launching was vastly reduced.

Only reason OV-105 Endeavour was built was NASA already had a stockpile of key structural components.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 01:07 PM (DIg/e)

59 Gah.  Hyperlink didn't work: http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=52493

Posted by: Formerly known as Skeptic at January 28, 2014 01:08 PM (91XRk)

60 Re Challenger:

I heard Roger Boisjoly speak about having tried his best to stop the launch.

It's a hell of a thing for an engineering professional to be asked to give their engineering opinion, then be told it's not welcome because it differs from that of management and the customer, then further be told that if they don't shut up they're committing career suicide on the spot.

Morton Thiokol management ought to have been criminally indicted.

Posted by: torquewrench at January 28, 2014 01:08 PM (gqT4g)

61 >>>My Dad was working at Lambert Field at that time. I'll have to give him a call to hear what he knows.

Posted by: tbodie at January 28, 2014 04:56 PM (CQzvT)<<<



I love to watch the Green Bay Packers play there.

Posted by: John Kerry at January 28, 2014 01:08 PM (XCGHz)

62 It lays the groundwork for a Martian New England colony that will eventually rebel from the American Empire.

Gotta re-read Snodgrass' Circuit series.  If you go to Mar, go to stay.

Posted by: Jean at January 28, 2014 01:09 PM (4JkHl)

63 I see my town on that list. People tend to forget we were once a giant in the aviation/aerospace/what-have-you area. Now we're lucky to throw treats at Boeing in hopes they notice us.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 01:09 PM (GaqMa)

64 Colonizing Mars (yeah, I said it) is going to require human beings. Learning if it's even technologically possible will ALSO require human beings.

Why?

We already know most of what there is to know about the atmosphere, temperature, weather, soil composition, etc.  You don't need boots on the ground to know that it gets really fucking cold an that you can't breathe the air.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:09 PM (SY2Kh)

65 10 President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986
Can you imagine SCOAMF making such a heartfelt speech? I sure can't.
Posted by: DangerGirl at January 28, 2014 04:52 PM (GrtrJ)
He would probably call them corpse-men after giving out a shout to Joe Medicine Crow.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at January 28, 2014 01:10 PM (F75MN)

66 Kids' Christmas gift from my parents was going to Johnson space center this past weekend. There was a lot of 'No really, we're still here, please don't take away the money' from the people giving the tours there. It was better than I'd feared (and still interesting) but I can completely see why Lauren found it to be so sad when taking her kids there a couple of months ago.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at January 28, 2014 01:10 PM (GDulk)

67 NASA doesn't really have a vision that is exploration, colonization, and resource exploitation. They are stuck in "look at these cool pictures" mode. The goal for space flight should be that a standard trained professional (think like an airline pilot) can handle getting from point A to point B. Next you need a constant thrust engine for the entire flight. If you can generate 1g for the entire flight, everyplace in the inner solar system becomes easily reachable. It also solves the problems of long term space exposure. NASA is good at creating graphics of things they will never do.

Posted by: Chris at January 28, 2014 01:10 PM (crkWb)

68 Jean - Martian Chronicles perhaps?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 01:10 PM (DIg/e)

69 regarding the ChiCom space program . . . will the whole "driving while Asian" thing be a factor or do you suppose they're correcting for that?  {I denounce myself.}

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:11 PM (8lmkt)

70 Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:09 PM (SY2Kh) I think Allen's point was that you should test-drive a Martian colony with four brave souls to start, instead of 10,000. It's a fair point.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:11 PM (ZEvg7)

71 I think we're all forgetting the important thing here- And that's that NASA is all about muslim outreach now.

Posted by: naturalfake at January 28, 2014 01:11 PM (0cMkb)

72 Why? Why not? Man was given Nature to conquer and shepherd. Mars is part of Nature. Why make cars? You can walk or ride a horse. Why Chick-fil-A? You can make your own food. The question isn't "why," the question is "why not?"

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:11 PM (PYAXX)

73 Y'all mocked the Preznint and his muzzie outreach objectives for NASA, but tell me: how many times have you heard of flying carpets crashing and burning? Yeah, I thought as much. Integrative complexity, baby!

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at January 28, 2014 01:12 PM (HsTG8)

74 >>>January and February seem to be bad months for space travel, I'll say that.<<<

We've got some carbon credits we'd like to sell you.  Cheap.

Posted by: NASA at January 28, 2014 01:12 PM (UzPAd)

75 But outside of the 'Gee Whiz' factor, in what way does a manned expedition advance science in a way that an unmanned mission can not? The human presence brings engineering requirements that unmanned missions do not. How to protect, feed and entertain them on a long mission become goals to meet. The many technological spinoffs alone are well worth the cost (which IMO should be borne by the private market these days). The Mercury/Gemini/Apollo days at least paid some of their money back in taxes from spinoff technology like Velcro and Super Glue.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 01:12 PM (0HooB)

76 "Apollo 13 - NASA Flight Director Gene Kranz. We could use more like him."

Have met the guy.

He wasn't wearing the famous white vest, but he still looked almost unchanged many years later.

Someone said something about how he had saved the crew of Thirteen, and he firmly and immediately corrected them. He said that the team he led had saved the crew. Refused any hint of sole credit. Insisted on recognition of the lowest level members.

Posted by: torquewrench at January 28, 2014 01:12 PM (gqT4g)

77 Brings up memories as I was there that day.  First and only launch I was in attendance (although I have seen a number of Shuttle landings).  I have my very own photos.

Posted by: Formerly known as Skeptic at January 28, 2014 01:12 PM (91XRk)

78 Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 05:11 PM (8lmkt) Sulu piloted the Enterprise just fine, once he remembered to take it out of park!

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:13 PM (ZEvg7)

79

Morton Thiokol management ought to have been criminally indicted.

Posted by: torquewrench

If you remember, Hercules lost the SRB contract due to the NASA decision to bundle in their own estimate of transportation costs, which overcame the safety disadvantages inherent in Thiokol's multi-part design.  Hercules had a single, extruded SRB design which would not have had the same failure.

Posted by: Jean at January 28, 2014 01:13 PM (4JkHl)

80 We lost some good astronauts to T-38 flights. But LBJ insisted on moving Mission Control to Houston, and they wanted to keep their proficiency hours. Can't blame them. Also: March 14 is Gene Cernan's 80th birthday, here in Hunt, Texas. I'm trying to get some sort of appreciation together without embarrassing him.

Posted by: Velociman at January 28, 2014 01:14 PM (RHu5C)

81 Yoshi, I totally had you in mind when I posted my self-denunciation. 

I'm sure I've mentioned this before but, in 1986, Christa McAuliffe's sister lived next door to me.  It was very sad.

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:14 PM (8lmkt)

82 Can't study long-term effects of space travel on the human body by sending robots.

Isn't that what the space station is for, at least in part?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:15 PM (SY2Kh)

83 As in most endeavours in life either Lead, Follow, or get out of the way. Under the smartest man in the room the USA is either getting our of the way or just following. Sigh

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 01:15 PM (t3UFN)

84 You can have Space Exploration or MOAR WAR ON POVERTY. Shoosh, everyone knows POVERTY is the final frontier.

Posted by: Chaos the other dark meat at January 28, 2014 01:15 PM (oDCMR)

85 77  The Mercury/Gemini/Apollo days at least paid some of their money back in taxes from spinoff technology like Velcro and Super Glue.Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at January 28, 2014 05:12 PM (0HooB)
Don't forget Tang. I like Tang.

Posted by: Bill Clinton at January 28, 2014 01:16 PM (F75MN)

86 Man was given Nature to conquer and shepherd. Mars is part of Nature. {Snip} Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 05:11 PM (PYAXX) Gentleman, I give you the proper interpretation of Genesis. Not the sucky "man is supposed to coexist with nature" shit. Dominion, baby, dominion!

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 01:16 PM (GaqMa)

87 Don't forget Teflon.  Who doesn't love Teflon!

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:16 PM (8lmkt)

88 Don't forget Tang. I like Tang. Posted by: Bill Clinton at January 28, 2014 05:16 PM (F75MN) But not as much as I do!

Posted by: Hillary! Clinton at January 28, 2014 01:17 PM (0cMkb)

89 Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 05:16 PM (GaqMa) It's almost like I pay attention to Theology or something...

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:17 PM (PYAXX)

90 Don't forget Teflon. Who doesn't love Teflon! Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 05:16 PM (8lmkt) Ah frogetaboutit, it wears out eventually

Posted by: John Gotti at January 28, 2014 01:17 PM (t3UFN)

91 Also- I want my BattleMech. Just sayin'.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:18 PM (PYAXX)

92 The space program also gave us Evacuating Shit Into Outer Space. I wish I could do that.

Posted by: Velociman at January 28, 2014 01:18 PM (RHu5C)

93

64...People tend to forget we were once a giant in the aviation/aerospace/what-have-you area.

 

Yes...and it is because the US was the leader in aviation, that English is the official language for aviation.

Air traffic controllers and Pilots, worldwide, are required to know enough English to converse with each other in English.

 

Not sure how much longer that will be the case...with the damage that Barky is doing to our country.

 

Our Space Program is one of the things that made the rest of the world regard us as the leading country on the planet.

 

If Russia and China establish bases on the Moon...we will be but a footnote in history, as the one who got there first.

 

We were magnanimous about being the first to put boots on the surface of the Moon.

We declared that the Moon belonged to 'All Mankind'.

 

What are the chances that China or Russia will be the same way?

 

Posted by: wheatie at January 28, 2014 01:18 PM (Wq5le)

94 Don't make me talk about what Hillary makes me do with Tang.

Posted by: Huma at January 28, 2014 01:18 PM (Aif/5)

95 Ask if there was a "Hey ya'll, watch this!" involved. Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 04:58 PM (SY2Kh) LOL. It is St. Louis, he probably said "Hey you guys".

Posted by: tbodie at January 28, 2014 01:19 PM (CNuph)

96 Never go into space without a healthy supply of Astroglide.

Posted by: NASA at January 28, 2014 01:19 PM (UzPAd)

97

"waved goodbye and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.'
President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986

 

It's the Gipper's speech in that he delivered it, he owned it, and it was written for his voice and character.  But the lovely words were penned by Peggy Noonan.  She goood.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at January 28, 2014 01:19 PM (A0sHn)

98 SO

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 01:19 PM (t3UFN)

99 Back in 2010 I was at the Pensacola NAS naval aviation museum.  Found out I had missed Neil Armstrong and Gene Cernan by a matter of weeks.  The Flight Deck Store had a few copies of Gene's book The Last Man on the Moon that were autographed.  Had to be satisfied by buying one of those copies.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 01:19 PM (DIg/e)

100 > >> I'm sure I've mentioned this before but, in 1986, Christa McAuliffe's sister lived next door to me. It was very sad. Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 05:14 PM (8lmkt) >> Didn't know that. I couldn't imagine dealing with that kind of situation.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:19 PM (ZEvg7)

101 You can have Space Exploration or MOAR WAR ON POVERTY. Shoosh, everyone knows POVERTY is the final frontier. Posted by: Chaos the other dark meat at January 28, 2014 05:15 PM

And Veet Nam, don't forget that one.

Ol' LBJ thought we could have all of 'em, all at once, easy-peasey. How did that work out for him?

Posted by: MrScribbler at January 28, 2014 01:20 PM (ff7/5)

102 Don't forget Tang. I like Tang. Posted by: Bill Clinton at January 28, 2014 05:16 PM (F75MN) But not as much as I do! Posted by: Hillary! Clinton He said Tang, not tuna.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 01:20 PM (ndIek)

103 We had a snow day from school so my brothers and I could watch it live. Heartbreaking. I remembered watching a NASA documentary just a few weeks before and it had a lot of footage of Judith Resnick in space and when Challenger exploded I immediately thought of McAuliffe the teacher and the pretty astronaut from the documentary.

Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 01:20 PM (X3GkB)

104 The question isn't "why," the question is "why not?"

Because it costs a shitload of money with no identifiable, tangible return on investment.

If a private entity wants to spend their own money and risk their lives for the privilege of standing on a big barren rock I don't have a problem with it.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:21 PM (SY2Kh)

105 Dominion, baby, dominion! Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 05:16 PM (GaqMa) Isn't it interesting that those who believe in Evolution... ie... the idea of survival of the most fit... won't also follow where that leads? If we ARE the fittest to survive... all else in under our dominion.... all other species ARE our prey... And as they are less fit... they are then not WORTHY of saving...

Posted by: John Carter at January 28, 2014 01:21 PM (84gbM)

106 He said Tang, not tuna. Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 05:20 PM (ndIek) Well that could have been construed as poon-tang

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 01:21 PM (t3UFN)

107 It's almost like I pay attention to Theology or something... Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 05:17 PM (PYAXX) I know people with PhD's in theology that focus way to much on the "companion" bit in Gen 2. Granted, such crazies also insist Jesus was a vegetarian. I'll let someone else explain why that's highly unlikely.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 01:21 PM (GaqMa)

108 Why manned space flight?  Why manned missions to the moon, or Mars, or the stars?

Because we're the United States of America, that's why.  If someone is going to do it, it darn well better be us.

Also, to give little kids something to dream about and aspire to.  When's the last time you asked a child, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" and they said "An astronaut"?  That was a pretty standard response when I was growing up. 

Now they want to be rappers.  I say we give them some higher aspirations than that.

Posted by: grammie winger at January 28, 2014 01:22 PM (P6QsQ)

109 What are the chances that China or Russia will be the same way?
Posted by: wheatie at January 28, 2014 05:18 PM

You mean after Arabic becomes the international language of aviation?

Posted by: MrScribbler at January 28, 2014 01:22 PM (ff7/5)

110 Because it costs a shitload of money with no identifiable, tangible return on investment. Excuse me, but others here have already listed several "identifiable, tangible" returns on the investment. They've even listed a few identifiable but intangible ones. Aspiration ain't just for Presidential races.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:22 PM (PYAXX)

111 Actually, the list of useful things that came directly from the NASA space program is quite long- Here's a comprehensive list: http://naturalfake.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/no-future-for-you/ Yeah, it's from my crapblog and it's old. But, it's comprehensive!

Posted by: naturalfake at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (0cMkb)

112 We were magnanimous about being the first to put boots on the surface of the Moon. We declared that the Moon belonged to 'All Mankind'. What are the chances that China or Russia will be the same way? As goes Alderaan, so goes the moon then.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (ndIek)

113 "If you remember, Hercules lost the SRB contract due to the NASA decision to bundle in their own estimate of transportation costs, which overcame the safety disadvantages inherent in Thiokol's multi-part design. Hercules had a single, extruded SRB design which would not have had the same failure."

Quite.

I have been told, several times and independently by various former NASA hands, that there was enormous internal pressure from the then-administrator to choose Thiokol.

Thiokol was a Utah company. The administrator at the time, James Fletcher, was LDS, a member in good standing of the Mormon Mafia, formerly a bigwig at the University of Utah, and keen to steer business to UT technology firms.

Internal engineering opinion was strongly against the segmented SRB concept. Fletcher pushed it through to contract anyway.

As Feynman said in his dissent, nature cannot be fooled.

Posted by: torquewrench at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (gqT4g)

114 RIP.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (+VxsD)

115 Choom-powered spaceflight has not yet been struck from Preezy Skeezy's STFU Address tonightÂ… or so I'm told.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (HsTG8)

116 Granted, such crazies also insist Jesus was a vegetarian. I'll let someone else explain why that's highly unlikely. **headdesk**

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (PYAXX)

117
Barry: Orville, Wilber - you didn't build that

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (1Jaio)

118 Sulu piloted the Enterprise just fine, once he remembered to take it out of park!

And the first time they let a broad drive, she broke the ship and got lost.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (SY2Kh)

119 I love to watch the Green Bay Packers play there.  Best laugh I've had in a long time.

Posted by: tbodie at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (pK8nF)

120 The end of the Cold War brought about a period of profound decadence and decay.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:23 PM (+VxsD)

121 Man was given Nature to conquer and shepherd. Mars is part of Nature.

Why make cars? You can walk or ride a horse.
Why Chick-fil-A? You can make your own food.

The question isn't "why," the question is "why not?"

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 05:11 PM (PYAXX)

 

 

----------------------------------------------

 

 

Timidity and risk aversion never results in winners.  The risk of spaceflight directly correlates with the journey of Christopher Columbus  or any other explorer(s)  that went  where no other men wanted to go. 

Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 01:24 PM (AIfv5)

122
Barry: And now we have turned NASA's attention away from stupid stuff like space exploration to important tasks like Muslim outreach.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 28, 2014 01:24 PM (1Jaio)

123 Greetings: NASA = Need Another Seven Astronauts And some Muslim Brothers, too.

Posted by: 11B40 at January 28, 2014 01:25 PM (E5SJE)

124 On the other hand, NASA was a product of the Cold War, and existed, at least in part, as a necessity of that struggle.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:25 PM (+VxsD)

125 Hold it. Are you saying that th $200,000,000,000 or so that we have expended on the ISS hasn't netted us *anything* measurable? How can that be?

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:25 PM (aDwsi)

126 And Veet Nam, don't forget that one. Posted by: MrScribbler at January 28, 2014 05:20 PM (ff7/5) Without commentary on whether Vietnam was worth it or not, the things the US learned there saved many lives later on. Necessity of cannon on fighters, guided munitions, unconventional warfare/SOF, the right way to do gunship close air support, the list goes on and on. As a result, we don't have anywhere close to 58,000 deaths. Thank God for that.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:25 PM (ZEvg7)

127 We were magnanimous about being the first to put boots on the surface of the Moon. We declared that the Moon belonged to 'All Mankind'. What are the chances that China or Russia will be the same way? Yeah- that, too. What happens when Russia or China are the first ones to Mars? Probably, they claim it as their own territory. Then, if our "private companies" who want to get into space exploration want to, say, land there- they're subject to Russian or Chinese jurisdiction (and whatever else that may mean). If *we're* there first (as a nation), we can either claim it ourselves (far better for everybody- including the Russians and Chinese- than them claiming it) or we can declare it neutral ground as we did with the moon. Liberty requires active protection.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:26 PM (PYAXX)

128 Future progress in space exploration should perhaps be carried out in a more "Wright-Brotherly" fashion.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:26 PM (+VxsD)

129 Not sure why I posted that. Maybe because people were talking about Tang and Teflon.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at January 28, 2014 01:26 PM (ZEvg7)

130 It is only a thin layer of extra sorrow, but I sometimes get the feeling that what Baraka has done to NASA cheapens the deaths of the Challenger and Columbia crews a little.

Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 01:26 PM (X3GkB)

131 Timidity and risk aversion never results in winners. The risk of spaceflight directly correlates with the journey of Christopher Columbus or any other explorer(s) that went where no other men wanted to go. Eagles soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines......

Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 01:27 PM (ndIek)

132 It's the Gipper's speech in that he delivered it, he owned it, and it was written for his voice and character. But the lovely words were penned by Peggy Noonan. She goood. Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at January 28, 2014 05:19 PM (A0sHn) --Those particular phrases were borrowed from an extant poem, though. (I forgot the title and poet.)

Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 01:28 PM (X3GkB)

133 Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 05:26 PM (X3GkB)

----

.... just wait to see what he has in store for Afghanistan...

Posted by: fixerupper at January 28, 2014 01:28 PM (nELVU)

134 "130 We were magnanimous about being the first to put boots on the surface of the Moon. We declared that the Moon belonged to 'All Mankind'. What are the chances that China or Russia will be the same way? Yeah- that, too. What happens when Russia or China are the first ones to Mars? Probably, they claim it as their own territory. Then, if our "private companies" who want to get into space exploration want to, say, land there- they're subject to Russian or Chinese jurisdiction (and whatever else that may mean). If *we're* there first (as a nation), we can either claim it ourselves (far better for everybody- including the Russians and Chinese- than them claiming it) or we can declare it neutral ground as we did with the moon. Liberty requires active protection. Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 05:26 PM (PYAXX)" The Soviet Union is no more, and Communist China is unlikely to achieve much of substance.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:29 PM (+VxsD)

135
Slightly related is my favorite movie:  Muslims in Space!!!!

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 28, 2014 01:29 PM (n0DEs)

136 Granted, such crazies also insist Jesus was a vegetarian. I'll let someone else explain why that's highly unlikely. Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 05:21 PM (GaqMa) --What's *really* crazy are Christians who think their religion demands teetotalling, when it's quite explicit that Jesus drank.

Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 01:30 PM (X3GkB)

137 I remember as a kid, when living in Wales, the other kids would say 'Britain is better than USA in (something and another thing etc. I can't remember now)' and then I said 'We have been to Space and the Moon.' Sometimes, Hollowpoint, giving a kid the ultimate bragging rights on foreign soil is reason enough. It helped me appreciate the greatness that our Country was.

Posted by: Schwalbe: The Me-262© at January 28, 2014 01:30 PM (9Bdcz)

138

RE: "Why?"

 

Why explore space?

Here's why...

 

Our species is at it's best when it is exploring new territories, new spaces.

We invent things very quickly, out of need.

 

Computers, btw, were developed rather quickly...because we needed them to compute the complexities of space exploration.

 

Since our space program was cut back in the 70's, we have turned from exploring space...to exploring depravity.

And we have been the poorer for it.

Posted by: wheatie at January 28, 2014 01:30 PM (Wq5le)

139 I can (in my own mind) rationalize NASA in the context of having capabilities that others do not, but the fact is that the practical usable knowledge derived from our investment is near nil. I know, I know..., Tang, right? I anticipate a a pie-in-the sky list of things like 'Miniaturization! Most of which will be ill-founded myth/rationalization.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:31 PM (aDwsi)

140 If Russia and China establish bases on the Moon...we will be but a footnote in history, as the one who got there first.

We were magnanimous about being the first to put boots on the surface of the Moon.
We declared that the Moon belonged to 'All Mankind'.

What are the chances that China or Russia will be the same way?

We were going to start a space program, too, but sadly you need gravity to play soccer.

Posted by: Brazil at January 28, 2014 01:32 PM (9F2c1)

141 Computers, btw, were developed rather quickly...because we needed them to compute the complexities of space exploration. Quibble- Computers were developed quickly to compute trajectories for ballistic projectiles. They were *further* developed quickly for the space stuff.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:32 PM (PYAXX)

142 Excuse me, but others here have already listed several "identifiable, tangible" returns on the investment. They've even listed a few identifiable but intangible ones.

Point is, you can't say with any confidence at all that spending $XX billion dollars to go to Mars will yield $YY in returns.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:32 PM (SY2Kh)

143 >>I remember as a kid, when living in Wales, the other kids would say 'Britain is better than USA in (something and another thing etc. I can't remember now)' and then I said 'We have been to Space and the Moon.' You could have just gone with "We kicked your ass once and we can do it again.".

Posted by: JackStraw at January 28, 2014 01:33 PM (g1DWB)

144 We Reach the Moon by John Wilford Noble.  New York Times book. 1969.

pg. 129
"Unquestionably, the Apollo money could be devoted to such worthwhile earthly problems. But those familiar with congressional committees and the Budget Bureau recognized a weakness in the argument. If the space program were ended the next day, their might be a modest tax cut, instead of a tax rise, but would poverty be diminished? Or would it be increased because of the unemployment caused by aerospace shutdowns?"

So now we have a President who has killed the manned mission of NASA, caused the NASA workforce and related aerospace industries to get trimmed, blew more money on social programs, and jacked up the taxes.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 01:33 PM (DIg/e)

145 Posted by: Brazil at January 28, 2014 05:32 PM (9F2c1) But games that *don't* require gravity are awesome.

Posted by: Ender Wiggin at January 28, 2014 01:33 PM (PYAXX)

146 Computers, btw, were developed rather quickly...because we needed them to compute the complexities of space exploration. ------------------------ Baloney. Sorry to be abrupt, but there it is. Commercial/industrial competitiveness has driven the computer and electronics business. Space exploration has been the beneficiary, not the inspiration

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:34 PM (aDwsi)

147 Point is, you can't say with any confidence at all that spending $XX billion dollars to go to Mars will yield $YY in returns. Nope. And? Same thing goes for most government programs- including military RND (how much money is "wasted" on ideas that never pan out?).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:34 PM (PYAXX)

148 "High Flight"

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds...and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of...wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up, the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, nor even eagle flew.
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space...
...put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 28, 2014 01:34 PM (QFxY5)

149 Alright. Out. See y'all (who are sober, anyway) tomorrow.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (PYAXX)

150 So now we have a President who has killed the manned mission of NASA, caused the NASA workforce and related aerospace industries to get trimmed, blew more money on social programs, and jacked up the taxes.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 05:33 PM (DIg/e)


And, let's not forget, created millions more poor people!  Pretty sure that's his signature accomplishment, at least in my mind.

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (8lmkt)

151 You guys can go to Mars, but just make sure all the thermal exhaust ports are secured.

Posted by: Darth Vader at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (9F2c1)

152

>> --Those particular phrases were borrowed from an extant poem, though. (I forgot the title and poet.)

 

"Slip the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God"  is from a poem called "High Flight".

 

Some TV networks signed off with that and a video of a jet doing cool shit.

 

That's right, there was a time when networks went to bed.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (WvXvd)

153 The Soviet Union is no more, and Communist China is unlikely to achieve much of substance.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 05:29 PM (+VxsD)

 

 

--------------------------------------------

 

 

Who are we hitching rides with to get to the ISS?  The old Soviet may not exist, but Russia is still active in manned space missions.  And I'm sure that somewhere in the bowls of the motherland, people are planning missions to the moon and Mars.

 

And as far as China is concerned, never underestimate your enemies.  We  never thought they'd launch an aircraft carrier so soon either.

Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (AIfv5)

154 John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 28, 2014 05:34 PM (QFxY5) --IIRC, he was a WWII vet, right?

Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (X3GkB)

155 We need to explore space because it's there. Or maybe not. If it's space is it really "there"?

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 28, 2014 01:35 PM (Hx5uv)

156 Sometimes, Hollowpoint, giving a kid the ultimate bragging rights on foreign soil is reason enough. It helped me appreciate the greatness that our Country was.

The US is the undisputed sole superpower.  How many trillions of dollars of debt is enhanced bragging rights really worth?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:36 PM (SY2Kh)

157

>> We kicked your ass once and we can do it again.".

twice, technically

Posted by: Dave in Texas at January 28, 2014 01:36 PM (WvXvd)

158 Did someone say, "High Flight"?

Posted by: Choombaka at January 28, 2014 01:37 PM (X3GkB)

159 "144 Computers, btw, were developed rather quickly...because we needed them to compute the complexities of space exploration. Quibble- Computers were developed quickly to compute trajectories for ballistic projectiles. They were *further* developed quickly for the space stuff. Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at January 28, 2014 05:32 PM (PYAXX)" Yes. On the other hand, even you are still too optimistic about the whole thing. The Manhattan Project and the Cold War almost cost humanity everything. People somehow overlook that whole aspect of it. Technological progress is not a free lunch.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:37 PM (+VxsD)

160 e didn't think there was going to be any math. Dear Leader is on tonight. Why are we discussing anything but him?

Posted by: MSM at January 28, 2014 01:38 PM (0FSuD)

161 Stupid Columbus.  Should have stayed home and saved Isabella some bucks. 

Posted by: grammie winger at January 28, 2014 01:38 PM (P6QsQ)

162 I wonder if Reggie is loosening the boy wonder up for his big blah-blah tonight.  Working out the kinks, as it were.

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:38 PM (8lmkt)

163 47 years seems like a very long time, but to put that into context it was a mere 66 years from the Wright Brothers first successful flight at Kittyhawk to Neil Armstrong's first step onto the moon. *** It's astonishing what man can accomplish with God at his back. The bravery of the men and women who embarked on such missions is almost beyond comprehension.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 28, 2014 01:39 PM (DmNpO)

164 Another point- practically every list you've ever read listing supposed inventions or developments credited to our space program is bullshit.

Velcro?  Invented by a Swiss man in the 1940's, not NASA.
Tang?  Not a NASA invention.
Teflon?  Invented in the 1930's.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:41 PM (SY2Kh)

165

149 Computers, btw, were developed rather quickly...because we needed them to compute the complexities of space exploration.

 

------------------------

 

Baloney. Sorry to be abrupt, but there it is. Commercial/industrial competitiveness has driven the computer and electronics business. Space exploration has been the beneficiary, not the inspiration

 

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 05:34 PM (aDwsi)

 

--------------

 

How many computers were around in the 50's when our space program began?

 

Granted, the 'business' of providing personal computers for people and industries drove the development of computers even further.

 

But there was no great outcry of "We need computers" coming from the general public...until the space program showed us the practical applications for them.

Posted by: wheatie at January 28, 2014 01:42 PM (Wq5le)

166 "147 We Reach the Moon by John Wilford Noble. New York Times book. 1969. pg. 129 "Unquestionably, the Apollo money could be devoted to such worthwhile earthly problems. But those familiar with congressional committees and the Budget Bureau recognized a weakness in the argument. If the space program were ended the next day, their might be a modest tax cut, instead of a tax rise, but would poverty be diminished? Or would it be increased because of the unemployment caused by aerospace shutdowns?" So now we have a President who has killed the manned mission of NASA, caused the NASA workforce and related aerospace industries to get trimmed, blew more money on social programs, and jacked up the taxes. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 05:33 PM (DIg/e)" Small Government is a worthwhile goal. Obama is a symptom of a state of generalized decadence, and, simultaneously, an aggravating factor, but that's neither here nor there.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:42 PM (+VxsD)

167 The Orion space capsule is scheduled for its first launch in September. NASA does have some interesting operations planned for the near future. One is to capture an asteroid and park it in lunar orbit. That's in the 2018 time frame.

Posted by: LFW - Honorary Pointy Eared Vulcan at January 28, 2014 01:42 PM (V40IZ)

168
We should all just listen to Krugman and finance everything from obamaphones to Mars manned missions to free everything and fund it with the stylized soulful tunes of the Federal Reserve.

Fund it all and then let it burn.  A bust out!


Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 28, 2014 01:42 PM (n0DEs)

169 Dear Leader is on tonight. Why are we discussing anything but him? Because he's a putz.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 01:42 PM (ndIek)

170 Eek, eek, EEEEK!!

Posted by: Fargam the Persian Space Monkey at January 28, 2014 01:43 PM (UzPAd)

171 @160. If we spent a trillion dollars on space, we'd probably have something cool to show for it...  and that's more than you can say about the trillions we've frittered away during the Obama administration.

Posted by: Cato at January 28, 2014 01:44 PM (i+Vw2)

172 I remember reading something (I think it was James Lilek's column in National Review) that pointed out the role groups fleeing religious persecution played in settling the English colonies and (jokingly, I think) suggested we start persecuting the Scientologists so they start a colony.

Posted by: The Lost Dutchman at January 28, 2014 01:44 PM (9F2c1)

173 I never got why the "FiCon" positioned seemed to be "spend no money nowhere." I consider myself a FiCon, and yet I'm not opposed to all government funding of science. I'd probably rearrange it fairly significantly (I'll spare the NCCAM rant again). And cut it (because we can't afford spending at the levels we got) but I don't think we need to eliminate it. NASA's funding is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else honesty. I see no reason some money can't flow it's way, especially since, as is been pointed out, the direct monetary gains (i.e. profit) are harder to tease out, making private investiture somewhat problematic. (I'd note that, had I a "pen and a phone" I'd probably dramatically reduce funds for the arts, those do in fact produce a realizable and often fairly quick profit, I'm not sure why we throw millions at them when private money does just fine.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at January 28, 2014 01:45 PM (GaqMa)

174 The Apollo moon landings were based on computer code translated into hard wired code. 'Little old ladies' basically 'knitted' the code with actual copper wires passed back and forth between boards. I've seen videos of them at work. It is astonishing. Posted by: Regular ------------- I think you speak of core memory? That was the standard RAM in the good old days. Used in virtually all pre-197x computers. Here is some: http://tinyurl.com/mltacfv

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:46 PM (aDwsi)

175 For a group of alleged conservatives, you lot sure do have a hard-on for expensive government boondoggles when it comes to fulfilling your Sci-Fi space fantasies.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:46 PM (SY2Kh)

176 Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 28, 2014 05:42 PM (n0DEs) I would rather spend money on learning things from space that could get us off this rock... Than wasting money paying people NOT to work... or Farmers NOT to grow food... or Energy companies to make money, not energy... In my philosophy.... good and evil is based on the survival of the Human Race... getting us off this one rock... is a GOOD thing...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 28, 2014 01:46 PM (84gbM)

177 I was at the launch of Apollo 11. 12 years old. The earth in Florida did not shake nearly as mightily as the earth underneath the Kremlin.

Posted by: Velociman at January 28, 2014 01:46 PM (RHu5C)

178 I liked Space Food Sticks

Posted by: Joey "Rockets are Cool" Biden at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (4S7hN)

179 Oh dear Heavens. Can you imagine the manipulation of this anniversary by the JEF? Wanna bet he honors their memories in some new, infuriating way?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (DmNpO)

180 >>We kicked your ass once and we can do it again.". twice, technically What me miss?

Posted by: JackStraw at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (g1DWB)

181 We never thought they'd launch an aircraft carrier so soon either. Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 05:35 PM (AIfv5) Well that's an old reconditioned Soviet Carrier, but yes they are working on a indiginous carrier of their own.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (t3UFN)

182

If a private entity wants to spend their own money and risk their lives for the privilege of standing on a big barren rock I don't have a problem with it.


 

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:21 PM (SY2Kh)

 

are probs w/ exploration itself?  mankind v machine?  private v govt ?

Posted by: dDan at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (hwYmz)

183 Hollowpoint - Not I. I favor NASA funding, but not for bullshit, feel-good, wet dreams.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (aDwsi)

184 Several years ago we where hanging around the grooming shed during shift turn over. Some of us got to telling "Challenger Jokes" ( yeah we're rude heartless bastards) one of the usually rude bastards was just glaring at us. When I asked him what his issue was, he informed us that he was actually a student in her class when the accident occurred. He should have never revealed that, cause we used it at every occasion we could after. And yes we are ignorant SOBs

Posted by: NativeNH at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (Hknbp)

185 It's astonishing what man can accomplish with God at his back.

The bravery of the men and women who embarked on such missions is almost beyond comprehension.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 28, 2014 05:39 PM (DmNpO)

 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

 

Even disregarding the people who sacrificed to explore space, think of the people that sacrificed themselves just to push the idea of  faster, more efficient flight  here on earth. 

 

And as far as the argument goes  whether it's worth the money to send people to the moon or Mars, we won't know until we do it.

 

I really don't care much for people who smugley dismiss something without really knowing what an "unknown" has to offer. 

Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 01:47 PM (AIfv5)

186 "153 So now we have a President who has killed the manned mission of NASA, caused the NASA workforce and related aerospace industries to get trimmed, blew more money on social programs, and jacked up the taxes. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 05:33 PM (DIg/e) And, let's not forget, created millions more poor people! Pretty sure that's his signature accomplishment, at least in my mind. Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 05:35 PM (8lmkt)" Poor Atheists, and Atheists in general, tend to vote overwhelmingly for the Democrat Party. Democrats have an incentive both to impoverish and "Atheize" as many people as possible.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:48 PM (+VxsD)

187 Because he's a putz. Posted by: rickb223 at January 28, 2014 05:42 PM (ndIek) NSA? Yes, we have one to report.

Posted by: MSM at January 28, 2014 01:48 PM (0FSuD)

188 Gaylord talking of capturing a asteroid in 2018 is guess what.  Beyond his term of office.  So if it fails its not his fault.  It was another worthless throwaway line from a worthless President who wanted to be seen doing something for space..

Orion is not even going to take the US back to the Moon.  It is now merely intended for near Earth space just like the Shuttle.  A rescue vehicle for the ISS.

The asteroid capture is a worthless stunt because without near Earth infrastructure, what is the point?  Depending upon the asteroid, nickel-iron, it could be a treasure trove of resources.  Unless you want a President to have a small Foot parked in orbit just waiting to smite whom ever annoys him.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 01:48 PM (DIg/e)

189 If we spent a trillion dollars on space, we'd probably have something cool to show for it... and that's more than you can say about the trillions we've frittered away during the Obama administration.

And that's what it boils down to- the Cool Factor.

Forgive me for being disinterested in paying for your hobbies and personal interests.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:49 PM (SY2Kh)

190 For a group of alleged conservatives, you lot sure do have a hard-on for expensive government boondoggles when it comes to fulfilling your Sci-Fi space fantasies. - You're talking about my proposal for free steam punk porn, right?

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 28, 2014 01:49 PM (Hx5uv)

191 If we spent a trillion dollars on space, we'd probably have something
cool to show for it... and that's more than you can say about the
trillions we've frittered away during the Obama administration.

And that's what it boils down to- the Cool Factor.

Forgive me for being disinterested in paying for your hobbies and personal interests.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:49 PM (SY2Kh)


I get what your saying but, I'd rather have the space cool factor than the "shiftless losers who don't particularly feel like working have 'free' cellphones" that I'm paying for factor.

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:51 PM (8lmkt)

192 No space accomplishments?  What do you call new software to tell our astronauts which way to face so they can pray to the holy Islamic space rock?

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama, Space Twink at January 28, 2014 01:51 PM (tv7DV)

193 Statements from the White House, however, indicate Obama’s speech will focus largely on domestic policy, including growing the economy, jobs, strengthening the middle class and expanding programs and policies to assist the poor in moving from poverty to the middle class. In press releases from the White House, no mention was made of the military in the speech. Still, at least one service member — Vice Adm. Michelle Howard — will sit with First Lady Michelle Obama for the speech, an indication the president will at least mention the armed services in some fashion. Howard has been nominated for a fourth star and would be the first woman to reach that rank in the Navy and the first black female four-star in any service. Hum, so the only mention of the Military will be to push the left wing agenda and vimen in the Military? Color me shocked?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 01:51 PM (t3UFN)

194 mortality catastrophe list, tragic omitted: all the "missed it by that much" failed calculations (oops, inches vs. metric unit oversight) where only the tax payers died paying for human errors

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 28, 2014 01:51 PM (MhA4j)

195 you're . . .

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:51 PM (8lmkt)

196

 ...being disinterested in paying for your hobbies and personal interests.


 

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:49 PM (SY2Kh)

 

this is why i asked?

 

are probs w/ exploration itself? mankind v machine? private v govt ?

Posted by: dDan at January 28, 2014 01:51 PM (hwYmz)

197 Personally, I'd mine the moon until it looked like swiss cheese, and then I'd fornicate with it in my space cruiser.  Of course, before that could happen, Uncle Sam would confiscate my wealth and throw me in jail under some trumped up EPA horseshit.

Posted by: Fritz at January 28, 2014 01:52 PM (UzPAd)

198 Even disregarding the people who sacrificed to explore space, think of the people that sacrificed themselves just to push the idea of faster, more efficient flight here on earth. And as far as the argument goes whether it's worth the money to send people to the moon or Mars, we won't know until we do it. I really don't care much for people who smugley dismiss something without really knowing what an "unknown" has to offer. *** One of my BFF's is married to a man who never met his father. Mr. Wheldon was a test pilot and died while his son was still in the womb. The danger of his job had become so routine that when he had returned home for lunch that day, Mrs. Wheldon was talking on the phone when he left, and just casually waved goodbye to him. She had no idea it would be the last time.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 28, 2014 01:52 PM (DmNpO)

199 No space accomplishments? What do you call new software to tell our astronauts which way to face so they can pray to the holy Islamic space rock? ---------------- I understand that we can use a dog to do that.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:52 PM (aDwsi)

200 180 For a group of alleged conservatives, you lot sure do have a hard-on for expensive government boondoggles when it comes to fulfilling your Sci-Fi space fantasies. Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:46 PM (SY2Kh) --Count me out on extensive manned space flight as well. That may eventually be privately driven and financed. We've learned oodles about space from Voyager, Pioneer, Viking, and Hubble (the last of which was ironically bashed when it was launched as a white elephant). Those have been bargains.

Posted by: Choombaka at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (X3GkB)

201 "156 The Soviet Union is no more, and Communist China is unlikely to achieve much of substance. Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 05:29 PM (+VxsD) -------------------------------------------- Who are we hitching rides with to get to the ISS? The old Soviet may not exist, but Russia is still active in manned space missions. And I'm sure that somewhere in the bowls of the motherland, people are planning missions to the moon and Mars. And as far as China is concerned, never underestimate your enemies. We never thought they'd launch an aircraft carrier so soon either. Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 05:35 PM (AIfv5)" Sure, Russia exists. And so do Britain, Germany, France, and Italy. As for China, its terrestrial ambitions in Transahara and elsewhere are much more likely to be a problem.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (+VxsD)

202 Gee whiz, Hollowpoint, why don't you press the Hot Air button on your computer? Which, btw, is a spinoff of the Shuttle program...

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (0HooB)

203 ...discovery of the electric universe as if the old guard would invest the effort to look

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (MhA4j)

204 omitted: all the "missed it by that much" failed calculations (oops, inches vs. metric unit oversight) where only the tax payers died paying for human errors Posted by: panzernashorn ------------- Plus millions in BS research grants.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (aDwsi)

205 which way to face so they can pray to the holy Islamic space rock?
----------------

I understand that we can use a dog to do that.

Oh, snap!!!

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (8lmkt)

206 Here you go Mike and others.  From 2008 Moon Machines - The Navigation Computer.

http://youtu.be/vU5G9VsoER8

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 01:53 PM (DIg/e)

207 I get what your saying but, I'd rather have the space cool factor than the "shiftless losers who don't particularly feel like working have 'free' cellphones" that I'm paying for factor.

In what way is this an either-or situation?

We're going broke.  One wasteful spending program does not excuse the other.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:54 PM (SY2Kh)

208 184 Oh dear Heavens. Can you imagine the manipulation of this anniversary by the JEF? Wanna bet he honors their memories in some new, infuriating way? Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 28, 2014 05:47 PM (DmNpO) Nah, he's more interested in my cornhole.

Posted by: Jason Collins at January 28, 2014 01:54 PM (X3GkB)

209 >>But there was no great outcry of "We need computers" coming from the general public...until the space program showed us the practical applications for them. My dad worked for IBM starting in about 1960ish when he got out of the military. His first territory as a rookie sales guy in NYC was 3 banks. He did very, very well. They could not get enough of them fancy new counting machines. I remember going to his office as a wee tyke when he was assigned the responsibility of printing out Santa and his reindeer on that green and white computer paper, rookie stuff. The printout was prominently displayed at the company Christmas party that was held at Radio City Music Hall for all NY based IBMers. A pretty large number since that was HQ. He had to input a stack of punch cards about a yard long into the reader to get the print from a computer system that filled a very large raised floor computer room. I now have more computing power in my phone.

Posted by: JackStraw at January 28, 2014 01:55 PM (g1DWB)

210 Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:41 PM (SY2Kh)
----------------

Let me see, just off the top of my head. GPS navigation (where would you be without it?) weather satellites, cable tv (uses a lot of satellites), worldwide communications of all sorts. There is a lot of terrestrial benefit to all of those devices. Frankly, the biggest drawback is getting it off the ground with chemical rockets. Somebody needs to develop anti-gravity propulsion.

Posted by: LFW - Honorary Pointy Eared Vulcan at January 28, 2014 01:55 PM (+hPIb)

211 "157 Maybe to just put the '300,000 subscribers' into context, since China was granted permanent most favored trade status after the push by Bill Clinton and Nancy Pelosi, 57,000 factories have closed in the USA. That is 1,000 factories for every state in the union. Unemployment has soared. Food stamp necessity has soared. The percentage of American working has plummeted. The best and brightest in the USA were using a product designed for the space program, using it very successfully, and Bill Clinton and Nancy Pelosi thought we could/should compete with 1.2 billion communists. Now some people think that Bill Clinton's wife is the answer? Ben Dover. Posted by: Regular Moron at January 28, 2014 05:35 PM (oGrEy)" Globalization/out-sourcing might have been a stupid idea. But the elites never apologize for anything.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at January 28, 2014 01:55 PM (+VxsD)

212
Sure we all can decide what is the best place for funding priorities, we used to do this with a thing called a budget.  But hey no budget, no limits.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 28, 2014 01:56 PM (n0DEs)

213 this is why i asked?

are probs w/ exploration itself? mankind v machine? private v govt ?

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to ask.

I don't care if private entities pay for manned space travel.  I don't want taxpayer money to be needlessly spent on space... or anything else for that matter.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 01:57 PM (SY2Kh)

214 Fuck, #206 was me, not JEF

Posted by: logprof at January 28, 2014 01:57 PM (X3GkB)

215 Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 28, 2014 05:51 PM (t3UFN) Yup... somehow a Black Female went up TWO Admiral ranks in 5 years... Crap.... you can't even go from E-5 to E-7 in 5 years.... Can you say... affirmative Action?

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 28, 2014 01:58 PM (84gbM)

216 CAC post up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at January 28, 2014 01:58 PM (DmNpO)

217 In what way is this an either-or situation?

We're going broke. One wasteful spending program does not excuse the other.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:54 PM (SY2Kh)


Well, of course, it's not, when looked at in absolutist terms.  OTOH, as long as politicians are running the show, and there are no term limits on congress, I don't see any significant reduction in wasteful spending programs.

Posted by: Peaches at January 28, 2014 01:58 PM (8lmkt)

218 OK, aspiring astronauts, I gotta do stuff. Y'all have fun and try not to trash the place, 'k?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b] at January 28, 2014 01:58 PM (0HooB)

219

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 05:57 PM (SY2Kh)

 

thanks.  can't agree but understand position.

Posted by: dDan at January 28, 2014 01:59 PM (hwYmz)

220 Let me see, just off the top of my head. GPS navigation (where would you be without it?) weather satellites, cable tv (uses a lot of satellites), worldwide communications of all sorts.

None of which require manned space flights.  Many of those satellites were put up with private money and without NASA involvement.

Mankind has known how to put satellites in orbit since the late 1950's.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 02:00 PM (SY2Kh)

221 Plus, I'm just curious.  I want a human on the ground on Mars to give me their impressions.   It's one of the things John Glenn did so well on his  Friendship 7 mission.  He gave us the human experience  of being in space and looking down on our world.

Posted by: Soona at January 28, 2014 02:00 PM (AIfv5)

222 My husband overlooked everything else to 'support' ( at least in arguments) Newt G's presidential ambitions solely because of Newt's support of manned space missions. I laughed, but couldn't say he was entirely wrong. It's about more than national pride and leading in innovation. The survival of the human race may, in the end, depend on it. Then again, my husband is The Foremost Authority on Speculative Fiction...in our house. Still...

Posted by: LadyS at January 28, 2014 02:01 PM (tMTsS)

223 153. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 05:33 PM (DIg/e) Only on an monumentally epic scale, just more of the same. For ALL the taxes paid, for all the laws passed, all the "jobs created", NADA BUT FRAUD. Nothing in turn for everything. Never forget Obama in charge of the pinstripe crime of attorneys conjoined with unions, stripping bare the decrepit living quarters of indigent, black old folks, thrown out on the Chicago winter streets. Altgeld Gardens public housing project provided opportunists piracy of public funding. Read the revisionist account, glorifying Obama for his role. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgeld_Gardens,_Chicago

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 28, 2014 02:01 PM (MhA4j)

224  
   Don't get the debate here.

   What else would you expect the most exceptional country on the planet TO do, besides lead the world?

    The exceptional is still there, just beneath the layer of progressive filth.

Posted by: irongrampa at January 28, 2014 02:02 PM (SAMxH)

225 You're talking about my proposal for free steam punk porn, right?

That's different, obviously.  Nobody is suggesting that shouldn't be fully funded.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 02:02 PM (SY2Kh)

226 NASA was critical to getting into space and to the moon, and I worshipped it from the age of 5. But now it is sclerotic, and just a fucked up bureaucracy whose primary mission is Moslem outreach. Now is the time for private enterprise.

Posted by: Velociman at January 28, 2014 02:03 PM (RHu5C)

227 Just as long as its not steampunk midget pr0n.  That is just eeewww...

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 02:03 PM (DIg/e)

228 Anna - Thanks. Learn something every day. Weirdly, discussion at lunch among 5 of us touched on core memory. It would seem, though not explicitly stated, that the ROM (rope-core) was more compact on account of the fewer wires, i.e., not the usual read/write/sense, whatever (memory fails me, ironically).

Posted by: Mike Hammer at January 28, 2014 02:04 PM (aDwsi)

229 If you have the spare time Mike, watch the whole Moon Machines series.  It really drives home how amazing the whole effort was.  The Lunar Rover is a wonderful simple contraption.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 28, 2014 02:09 PM (DIg/e)

230 Don't get the debate here.

What else would you expect the most exceptional country on the planet TO do, besides lead the world?

There are a lot of ways to lead other than spending countless hundreds of billions of dollars we don't have on something we don't need.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 28, 2014 02:11 PM (SY2Kh)

231 President Ronald Reagan - January 28, 1986

I had spent the day at the Smithsonian museums, which always include some time at the Air and Space Museum, and was sitting in the car outside the grocery store when I heard the news on the radio. I can still see in my mind's eye President Reagan making his condolence statement. Shocking as the loss was, his short statement was comforting.

Having read a book of his letters, it wouldn't surprise me to find he'd written it himself.

Posted by: Retread at January 28, 2014 02:15 PM (cHwk5)

232

Space was made for robots. Men have better things to do with their time and money.

If it ever becomes worthwhile to send men back into space, private industry will do it. No tax hikes for manned rocket ships, please.

Posted by: J. Moses Browning at January 28, 2014 02:16 PM (ph30l)

233 I'll never forget Apollo 1 (happened when I was a kid), Challenger, and especially Columbia. February 1 2003 was a Saturday, and I was sleeping in when a loud boom woke me up a few minutes after 8:00. The night before, I had thought about going outside to see the re-entry, but had already done that. I went outside and saw the debris trail in the skies over Dallas. I knew what had happened. I went inside, called my parents, and turned on the TV. My dad had been outside getting the paper when he heard the boom, then looked up and saw the same debris I did a few minutes later. It was a terrible day.

Posted by: Michael the Hobbit who demand that you call him Chelsea at January 28, 2014 02:29 PM (vVMIQ)

234 Sorry I missed this thread. I have a copy of Rand Simberg's new book, "Safe is Not an Option", which Mollie Hemingway reviewed in her article. I contributed to his Kickstarter effort to research, write, and publish the book. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it's been getting good reviews. Here's the Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/kqfyotp He's got a good blog, too: http://www.transterrestrial.com/

Posted by: rickl at January 28, 2014 03:14 PM (sdi6R)

235 The crash that killed C. C. Williams was not in Huntsville.  It happened near Tallahassee Florida, as he was flying to Mobile AL.

Posted by: Huntsville resident at January 28, 2014 03:29 PM (N904h)

236 Skimming through the comments, I hardly know where to start. Bassett & See: I remember hearing about that on the news, but not much else. Apollo 1: I was a space-crazy kid at the time, and that affected me greatly, as you can imagine. I was at home in the evening when the news bulletins started to come in. My dad knew Gus Grissom's dad, and I remember him calling Western Union to send a condolence telegram later that evening. Challenger: I was at work and didn't see the launch live. When word started to spread, I went to the break room and sat there the rest of the day watching the replays over and over. My supervisor was kind of upset, and I told her to just count it as a vacation day. Columbia: It was a Saturday morning and I had forgotten that the shuttle was scheduled to land that day. I turned on the TV just after they lost contact, but before the first videos started coming in showing the breakup over Texas.

Posted by: rickl at January 28, 2014 03:37 PM (sdi6R)

237 I'll never forget the Challenger disaster. The night before I had picked up this hawt waitress, I mean freakin' gorgeous, down on Grace Street in RVA and we, ahem, went back to my place to look at some etchings. The next morning we woke up to nonstop news and replays of the explosion. This girl - we'll call her Allison because that's her name - said, "It's God's will because man wasn't meant to fly". Turns out she was in one of those religious cults that are basically Luddites, like the Amish on steroids. I put her out the door and never dated her again, even though she tried the old "I'll f*** his best friend to make him jealous" trick. Apparently that was OK with her cult's bylaws.

Posted by: Xavier at January 28, 2014 04:07 PM (OW+Od)

238 Governments became centrally involved in space because the space race was a direct outgrowth of the arms race. The early satellite launchers of both the US and USSR were converted military ICBMs. The moon race was an important "battle" of the Cold War, but once Apollo 11 landed on the moon, the urgency abated and the program went ahead largely on momentum. Public interest also tailed off after that point. After Apollo 13, it was realized that sooner or later they would lose a crew, and I think that's when NASA started getting cold feet. While the Space Shuttle was a magnificent feat of engineering, it was also a compromise design due to budget constraints. It turned out to be much more expensive than advertised. It also turned out to be extremely fragile. The two fatal accidents were caused by a rubber O-ring and a chunk of foam. I would argue that the Shuttle was a 30-year detour in our ability to utilize space. It sucked up vast amounts of money and manpower, and was not upgradable. It's not like they could stick on a couple more SRBs and fly it to the Moon or Mars. So really, I'm not sorry that it was retired. It's time to move on. I am very excited by some of the things I am seeing today. SpaceX has had great success so far with their Falcon 9 rocket and their Dragon spacecraft. They are hell-bent on reducing the cost per launch, and even plan to recover and reuse their first stages. At the moment, American rockets such as the Atlas V and Delta IV have lost the commercial satellite market to the Europeans and the Russians. But even the Chinese have said that they can't compete with SpaceX on price. Then there is also Sierra Nevada Corporation, which is developing their Dream Chaser space plane, which will be able to be launched on a variety of rockets. The Europeans have expressed an interest in it, too. Boeing is developing their CST-100 capsule. Virgin Galactic's SpaceShipTwo and XCOR's Lynx rocket planes are looking to create a tourist trade in short suborbital flights, and could eventually lead to lead to new orbital spacecraft down the road. Bigelow Aerospace has already tested inflatable orbital modules which could be used to build future space stations, and even Moon and Mars bases. There is a lot going on now, much of it under the media's radar, and a lot of threads are starting to come together. In my opinion, this is the most exciting time for space since the Apollo era. As I've said before, what we need is a private space industry, not a government space program.

Posted by: rickl at January 28, 2014 04:11 PM (sdi6R)

239 A new article analyzing the Apollo I audio tapes strongly suggests that the three astronauts might have survived the oxygen fire if the capsule door could have been blown with explosive bolts. It didn't have those because of Gus Grissom.

Having discovered Gus's Corollary to Murphy's Law, I double-checked the wiki entry on Murphy. Murphy, it turns out, was a safety consultant on Apollo I.

The rest of the day was just the opening theme from Twilight Zone, over and over.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at January 28, 2014 04:24 PM (xq1UY)

240 One thing that is good about having a variety of manufacturers and designs is that an accident happening to one type of spacecraft won't force everybody else to be grounded. If an Airbus plane crashes, it doesn't necessarily affect Boeing, and vice versa. In 1967 Apollo was the only American manned spacecraft, so there was a long hiatus after the fire. (Russia's Soyuz 1 also had a fatal accident on its first flight three months later.) Likewise, in 1986 and 2003, the Shuttle was the only game in town.

Posted by: rickl at January 28, 2014 04:34 PM (sdi6R)

241 > I'm not sure I agree with her entirely but I absolutely do agree NASA has become just another large overfed federal agency - mostly interested in self-preservation and funding.

You forgot about providing excellent research in furtherance of the global warming fraud.

Posted by: WaitingForMartel at January 28, 2014 04:52 PM (wL/sZ)

242 I was a EO1 driving the Captain and Master Chief to chow when the Challenger exploded. We damn near all three of us cried. I felt like crying today when I considered how much longer my country has to be abused and molested by the thugs in Washington City.

Posted by: Erowmero at January 28, 2014 06:18 PM (OONaw)

243 The Chinese will know how to use sacrifice to spur their program on to greater and greater achievements. I'm actually surprised that they have not created some martyrs already. They won't do all of the hand wringing and crap, they will just get back on the horse and leave us in the dust. Nice going, risk averse Americans.

Posted by: and irresolute at January 28, 2014 06:32 PM (RqHWH)

244 You forgot Major Mike Adams who died in Nov. 1967 flying X-15 #3. He was a USAF astronaut.

Posted by: Tantrumblogo at January 28, 2014 06:40 PM (euACX)

245 Good catch, Tantrumblogo.

Posted by: rickl at January 28, 2014 06:56 PM (sdi6R)

246 Thanks so much for this moving post. Sorry if someone already commented on this, but it should be "Kalpana Chawla" (with an "a" at the end, not "Chawl") under the Columbia fatality list.

Posted by: Jana at January 28, 2014 07:13 PM (Gu4gt)

247 And we might as well honor the Russian cosmonauts who have died in spaceflights: Soyuz 1, April 24, 1967 Vladimir Mikhailovich Komarov It was a new spacecraft that was in no way ready for manned flights. Two unmanned tests in 1966 went poorly, but project managers convinced themselves that a cosmonaut on board could have salvaged those missions. They were wrong. They suffered from "go fever" the same as the Apollo program did. Soyuz 1 was in serious trouble from the start, and despite a heroic effort at a manually-controlled re-entry, Komarov was killed when his parachutes failed. Soyuz 11, June 29, 1971 Georgi Timofeyevich Dobrovolsky Viktor Ivanovich Patsayev Vladislav Nikolayevich Volkov Soyuz 11 docked with Salyut 1, the world's first space station, predating Skylab by two years. It was a very successful flight, and set a new endurance record of 23 days. But when Soyuz prepared to return to Earth, a valve mistakenly opened in the crew module just before re-entry, and the cabin vented its atmosphere. The crew were not wearing spacesuits and were asphyxiated. Since then the crews of every manned spacecraft don pressure suits for re-entry, even though they do not normally wear them in orbit.

Posted by: rickl at January 28, 2014 07:30 PM (sdi6R)

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