March 28, 2014

Which Colleges and Which Majors Will Make You the Richest, and Which Will Make You the Poorest?
— Ace

First, the ones that will increase your net earnings (over the course of 20 years) by the highest margin. You won't be surprised to learn that computer science degrees (from different elite colleges) make up nine of the ten college/major combinations; the only non-computer science one in the top ten is an economics degree from a minor little school called Standford.

And then there's the colleges that will actually make you poorer -- when you deduct the cost of college (and cost of not working for four years) from the marginal increase in your net earnings, it sums to below zero -- and the specific majors which will make you poorer on the deal, too.

There's not a big surprise here, either. The majors which tend to be bad investments are Art, Humanities, English, and Education.

On that last one, teachers might say that this is a reason that they should be paid more; I'd suggest an alternate conclusion. My conclusion is that the Education degree should not be a major, but instead just an intensive minor. People with an education degree cannot work in any other area with that degree except education, which traps them in a fairly low-paid field. They cannot easily -- even if they wished to -- jump ship to another career.

And I really have trouble believing that teachers should spend most of their time studying, in a meta, bullshitty sort of way, the Theory of Education, as opposed to studying a specific subject matter (math, history, whatever else).

I am very skeptical that the Theory of Education itself can be gainfully studied as a four-year major. I have to think that after the first four or five courses, there's a lot of repetition, and a lot of higher abstract theorizing that very few in-the-field teachers have need of.

But I don't think the entrenched Education establishment would like that proposal, because it would mean an end to their phony-baloney jobs in college Education departments.

One way in which these numbers are misleading, or at least incomplete, is that they disguise an important fact: Students going to Caltech for comp science are going to make a lot more money than a student going to Murray State College for Arts whether they went to college or not. The Caltech comp science guy is, look, coming into the classroom a lot smarter than the Murray State Arts grad. Even if they both dropped out of school on the first day of classes, the guy who was at Caltech would make more money that the Murray State student.

But that's just an argument for another point: There are a lot of fairly useless degrees out there, degrees that will actually have a negative impact on someone's economic fortunes, and that means that there are a lot of people going to college who just shouldn't be going to college.

They should just start working after high school, at least if they want to maximize their earnings, which, whether they know it at 18 or not, they will, at least by age 28, if not earlier.

It's around age 28 where all the bullshit-bullshit and excuses of the college years start falling away and people start realizing, damnit, I need to start making some money.

Posted by: Ace at 09:49 AM | Comments (334)
Post contains 579 words, total size 4 kb.

1 You can't mock me I'm a doctor!!!

Posted by: Dr. Jill Biden at March 28, 2014 09:51 AM (Aif/5)

2 The School of Hard Knocks gets my vote.

Posted by: Countrysquire at March 28, 2014 09:52 AM (LSJmV)

3 Run the numbers for starting a retirement savings account at 18, versus after you get your MFA at age 25, and the numbers are even more stark.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 09:52 AM (QFxY5)

4 Oh well...

Posted by: English Major at March 28, 2014 09:52 AM (14nfd)

5 What?  No women's or LGBT studies in the top 10?

Posted by: flounder at March 28, 2014 09:53 AM (Kkt/i)

6 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 09:53 AM (PYAXX)

7 Re: Education Degrees: Alternative Certification FTW!

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 09:53 AM (PYAXX)

8 One of my sons teaches college, and another one of my sons teach high school. Both of them say the absolute dumbest people they met in college were education majors.

Posted by: Furious George at March 28, 2014 09:54 AM (yFb77)

9 It's around age 28 where all the bullshit-bullshit and excuses of the college years start falling away and people start realizing, damnit, I need to start making some money.

I can personally attest to that truth...

Posted by: Vortex Lovera at March 28, 2014 09:54 AM (wtvvX)

10 Lawyer, sort of.... 

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at March 28, 2014 09:54 AM (GjPnA)

11 I wish people would just go out and earn technical degrees. You go to packaging machinery school and couple that with a little computer knowledge and you can make a living in pretty much every major city in the US. Not just a living. A nice living.

Posted by: Zakn at March 28, 2014 09:55 AM (zyaZ1)

12 Seeing Ohio State: Education combo on there warms the heart.

Posted by: AMDG at March 28, 2014 09:55 AM (eFytx)

13 College is not a glorified, over expensive trade school. A college education is NOT about a job or a career, it is about becoming a better person, more learned and discerning, and understanding the world better. If you go to college to get a better job, you are better off going to the military, a trade school, or apprenticing somewhere. Unless you are going for a legal or medical profession; then you should use college.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 09:55 AM (zfY+H)

14 Underwater basket weaving?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 28, 2014 09:55 AM (gOoFi)

15 You need that advanced education degree....so you can be an administrator....that's where the money is.

Posted by: BignJames at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (j7iSn)

16 8 One of my sons teaches college, and another one of my sons teach high school. Posted by: Furious George ___________________________ And both of those boys, including the accounting teacher, will tell you that the second dumbest people would be those who can't make subjects and verbs agree.

Posted by: Furious George at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (yFb77)

17 My education degree included three units in teaching children to read and 12 in cultural sensitivity of students. You draw your conclusion

Posted by: Sunny at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (OJLOy)

18 I believe, in the not-too-distant future, you will see more and more people getting "educated" without much contact with a "teacher".

Posted by: Vortex Lovera at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (wtvvX)

19 It's strange that Savannah State University made the list twice with two different scores. It's only the one school....

Posted by: Buddha at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (s/sIv)

20 No, wait, I got it. Philosophy!

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (gOoFi)

21 I don't think they should let anyone teach who's under 40. Real world experience and all that.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b][/u] at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (0HooB)

22 Four years? Ha. My dumbest most useless teacher in high school went for her masters.

Posted by: Buzzion at March 28, 2014 09:56 AM (5nHlr)

23 Does anyone that plans to go to college not read the Occupational Outlook Handbook anymore?  It is even online so you don't have to go to one of those musty depressing places, what are they called again, oh yeah, libraries, and pick up those things full of papers with writing on them, the antique ipads or something.

Posted by: flounder at March 28, 2014 09:57 AM (Kkt/i)

24 "it is about becoming a better person, more learned and discerning, and understanding the world better. " And by that you mean it's about learning why you're a racist, sexist monster, right?

Posted by: Lauren at March 28, 2014 09:57 AM (hFL/3)

25 "I believe, in the not-too-distant future, you will see more and more people getting "educated" without much contact with a "teacher"."
Absolutely, and its no worse an education for being online and seeing lectures over skype rather than in person. Being able to chat with the teacher and use email is still productive.
Given the immense cost of a college education, you're an idiot to take core classes there anyway. Given the dubious quality of the education in so many colleges, you're an idiot to attend at all.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 09:58 AM (zfY+H)

26 College is not a glorified, over expensive trade school. A college education is NOT about a job or a career, it is about becoming a better person, more learned and discerning, and understanding the world better. Maybe it once was, but you're wrong as far as the current state of things goes. Actually, as I understand it, the classical difference between "College" and "University" was exactly the difference today between Trade School (admittedly, for more academic "trades" in Colleges) and College/University today. But whatever it was, today College degrees are nothing more than overly expensive, often misapplied trade training programs.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 09:58 AM (PYAXX)

27 College is not a glorified, over expensive trade school. A college education is NOT about a job or a career, it is about becoming a better person, more learned and discerning, and understanding the world better. If you go to college to get a better job, you are better off going to the military, a trade school, or apprenticing somewhere. Unless you are going for a legal or medical profession; then you should use college.

Can't tell if sarc, or delusion...

Posted by: Vortex Lovera at March 28, 2014 09:58 AM (wtvvX)

28 I'm actually glad to see this list. Over the past few years I was regretting the choice I made for which school to get my engineering degree from. I ended up selecting a very expensive private school, and I'm still paying quite a bit of student loans each month (I had to pay for college myself). However, my university comes in at #41 overall, so...maybe not too shabby!

Posted by: ConservativeintheCity at March 28, 2014 09:58 AM (LR4/Y)

29 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 01:55 PM (zfY+H) Both And. And sadly, there are many that ridicule the idea of morals or objective truth at all, so college making "better people" doesn't mean anything.

Posted by: AMDG at March 28, 2014 09:58 AM (eFytx)

30 I like the picture in the 'waste of  money' link. She may have an education degree, but she knows exactly what industry is going to be paying her for her talents.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (AC0lD)

31 >>I am very skeptical that the Theory of Education itself can be gainfully studied as a four-year major. I have to think that after the first four or five courses, there's a lot of repetition, and a lot of higher abstract theorizing that very few in-the-field teachers have need of. Which reminds me, it's almost time for my bi-monthly look at standardized tests, which are chock full of weirdly-worded questions that some Ed PhD has spent YEARS figuring out. BRB when I start yelling things like "JUST FLUCKING ASK THE KID HOW TO FLUCKING MULTIPLY AND DIVIDE".

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (SUKHu)

32 I have a relative who was roomies with an education major in college.  Said she was pretty much as dumb as a post.  No offense to posts.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (DrWcr)

33

There's been a lot of emphasis on "education as an investment", Insty covers it a lot. 

 

I may be the only hordeling to speak up for education qua education.  It is good and valuable to be learned, to know history, to appreciate literature, to speak another language, to understand statistics, to be generally exposed to the major disciplines of learning.

 

And yeah, you actually learn more about all of those things after college, but college provides a valuable framework for future learning.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (JtwS4)

34 "Surely you jest!" said the barrista with $100,000 in student loans for her BA in Womyn Studies.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (IHAZk)

35 computer science Yay me. And, I coupled it with the right side of the brain.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (IXrOn)

36 It's no secret that, pound for pound, Education majors are the dumbest students on a campus.

Posted by: Buddha at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (s/sIv)

37 12 Seeing Ohio State: Education combo on there warms the heart. Posted by: AMDG at March 28, 2014 01:55 PM (eFytx) Oh and speaking of my stupid teacher that felt she needed a masters...

Posted by: Buzzion at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (5nHlr)

38 "And by that you mean it's about learning why you're a racist, sexist monster, right?"
That's what its turned into, yeah. The basic philosophy hasn't changed, only the quality of education and the topics. Its still about being a better citizen, leader, and human; at least according to the people doing the teaching. Its just that "better" to them doesn't mean objectively wiser and more educated about life, it means more leftist and indoctrinated.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (zfY+H)

39 It's kind of a shame in that an having an  English degree  was once   useful . It usually meant one was well-read, fairly knowledgeable in a variety of subjects, and  could write and speak well. It was often a springboard to Law and other more profitable  avenues....

Posted by: JoeyBagels at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (14nfd)

40 The US Navy has had a successful technical education program for many years. Instructors are experts at their jobs, and then take a TWO WEEK course on how to teach. They then work with a qualified instructor in that class until the Senior Instructors say they are Qual'd to teach. If you are going t WRITE a course??? Two week class in curriculum development... then there is a class on how to write tests.... But at every step, your teaching is monitored, to ensure quality.... even if you are the most senior instructor in the Nation on that course (which I was).... hell.... even you helped WRITE the course (which I did)... After 4 years of teaching in the Navy, I taught Microsoft Network Engineering courses for almost 10 years.... successfully.... Yet.... I can NOT teach in a School... Teaching public schools has become a Monopoly... one which needs to be broken if we wish to fix Education.

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (84gbM)

41 I read the part on the lowest-ranged colleges in the original sources, and noticed that most of those schools seemed to be in Alabama. Maybe a methodological problem is that not adjustment was made for cost of living: I wager no matter the profession, wages in Alabama tend to be lower than in say, New York or New Jersey. As do the costs of living...

Posted by: rjm319 at March 28, 2014 09:59 AM (13yKe)

42 On that last one, teachers might say that this is a reason that they should be paid more; I'd suggest an alternate conclusion. My conclusion is that the Education degree should not be a major, but instead just an intensive minor. People with an education degree cannot work in any other area with that degree except education, which traps them in a fairly low-paid field. They cannot easily -- even if they wished to -- jump ship to another career. Honest question. Do you really need a four or six year degree to teach 6th grade history? If yes, why? The course material is already in the book & the state or district usually mandates what is taught & tested on.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (ndIek)

43 It's not what degree you have as much as it is who you know combined with dumb luck, ie being in the right place at the right time. Almost everyone has to start at the bottom but where they start sets the life path .

Posted by: Bad mother...shut you mouth at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (1rEgY)

44 "Education majors are the dumbest students on a campus." I haz me duh-gree.

Posted by: Education Major at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (gOoFi)

45 It isn't just Obama who pukes rainbows and unicorns

Posted by: William Shakespeare at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (e8kgV)

46 A college degree became the substitute for employment testing when the wizards on the U.S. Supreme Court decided Griggs v. Duke Power.

Posted by: Furious George at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (yFb77)

47 I learned the most in college from the claases that pertained to my major (biology). The rest of the stuff was bullshit that was required...philosophy, sociology, english. They didn't make me a well rounded person, they were a waste of my time.

Posted by: DangerGirl and her Sanity Prod (tm) at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (B2fm1)

48 re 8: One of my sons teaches college, and another one of my sons teach high school. Both of them say the absolute dumbest people they met in college were education majors.

"Dr. Thomas Sowell addresses that issue in his book, "Inside American Education." In 1980-81, students majoring in education scored lower on both the verbal and math portions of the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) than students majoring in any other subject. Only 7 percent of high school seniors with SAT scores in the top 20 percent, and 13 percent in the next quintile, chose to major in education. At the other end of the academic spectrum, more than half of those with SAT scores in the lowest 20 percent chose education as a major. Eighty-five percent of high SAT scoring students who actually become teachers leave after a brief career.

Education majors remain at the bottom of the academic barrel after four years of college. The National Institute of Education conducted a study of student performance on examinations (LSAT, GMAT and GRE) to gain entrance to graduate schools. Of twenty-five different undergraduate study areas, students whose undergraduate major was education scored at the bottom or at best second from the bottom."

Posted by: mallfly at March 28, 2014 10:00 AM (bJm7W)

49 Phew, my wife's school didn't make the shitlist, but a big chunk of the -$30,000 category are HBCU's, so racism.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 28, 2014 10:01 AM (ZshNr)

50 And, now we're studying Ewok Personality Syndrome, or HELP! for short.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 10:01 AM (IXrOn)

51 Majoring in drama is very lucrative...

Posted by: Ryan Elisabeth Reid at March 28, 2014 10:01 AM (S+el1)

52 "Can't tell if sarc, or delusion..."
The fact that you'd even ask is evidence of how messed up the entire concept of education has become.
Yes, colleges suck at their job, but that doesn't change what their job is supposed to be. If you spend $100,000 trying to get a better paying job, there's nobody dumber on earth than you.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:01 AM (zfY+H)

53 I still want to quit my job and go to art school.  I won't.  But I still wanna.



Both of them say the absolute dumbest people they met in college were education majors.

Every kid must college...and then the ones who shouldn't be there have to declare a major.

The absolute dumbest people I met in high school are now "proud educators." With masters degrees (funded by their school districts), because the masters degree gets them an automatic raise in pay regardless of performance or responsibility.  They can't count to twelve without taking off their shoes and socks, but yet...looks like they're smarter than I am, don't it.

Posted by: HR Go Cyclones! at March 28, 2014 10:01 AM (ZKzrr)

54 Wish someone had surveyed the OWS campers for the college and degrees earned. You know, those young adults sitting on their asses whining that the world owed them a job and debt forgiveness because they spent thousands on degrees/advanced degrees.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 28, 2014 10:01 AM (udjuE)

55 I have a useless degree-Journalism- really, I swing a hammer for a living My daughter no degree Manager/bartenter at local pub has made more money than me the last five years Of course the economy sucks Go Wildcats/UK

Posted by: Doug at March 28, 2014 10:02 AM (H6fvX)

56 >>>And yeah, you actually learn more about all of those things after college, but college provides a valuable framework for future learning. But is it worth the money they are now charging for it?

Posted by: Buzzion at March 28, 2014 10:02 AM (5nHlr)

57 Nice. U of WA number 5 on ROI.

Posted by: flounder at March 28, 2014 10:02 AM (Kkt/i)

58 When I review CV's of future employees, liberal arts degrees go right in the shit can.

Also, any mention of a black college---> shit can.

Posted by: Thoroughly Disgusted at March 28, 2014 10:02 AM (Cs2tJ)

59 The underlying BS and Masters degrees Education iare necessary in order to progress to over paid Admin jobs rather than teaching.

Posted by: Bad mother...shut you mouth at March 28, 2014 10:02 AM (1rEgY)

60 I think anybody that goes to college and enlists in the military is stooped. We don't need anymore wars andd we need to think about how we can helps people rather then killing them.

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (h0ygp)

61 Honest question. Do you really need a four or six year degree to teach 6th grade history? If yes, why? The course material is already in the book & the state or district usually mandates what is taught & tested on. Do you mean "do you really need a four or six year education degree..." or do you mean any degree? I would say no to the former, but yes (preferably in History) to the latter.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (PYAXX)

62 I took Recreation 101 for a brainless elective course, once. Everyone in my class was over 6' tall.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (IXrOn)

63 "But is it worth the money they are now charging for it?" No.

Posted by: Lauren at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (hFL/3)

64 the only real college degree is a Liberal Arts degree. Most are simply trade school degrees. - My kid's an education major. If it weren't for the full-ride four year academic scholarship he received I'd be lobbying hard for him to get a degree in engineering or actuarial sciences. Because there's no way in hell I'd pay or cosign for $100,000+ in debt so that he could go work in a half-assed, corrupt, mediocre school district. _

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (4CVLy)

65 The Atlantic published this?  They are not on the humanities' crowds Chrsitmas Card list any more.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Despair, Doom, Gloom and More at the Outrage Outlet! at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (hLRSq)

66 I've never been out of a job with my CS degree *knock on wood*. As long as you don't get too picky, there are tons of jobs.

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 10:03 AM (E8IHS)

67 >>>College is not a glorified, over expensive trade school. A college education is NOT about a job or a career, it is about becoming a better person, more learned and discerning, and understanding the world better. If you go to college to get a better job, you are better off going to the military, a trade school, or apprenticing somewhere. Unless you are going for a legal or medical profession; then you should use college.

Yes. A modern "University" does not grant a University Education, at least in the classical sense. In your non-major studies, there is neither emphasis on worthwhile Liberal Arts nor on STEM. The former doesn't exist on most University campuses, and the latter is only learned if you happen to major in STEM.

However I disagree with you in this: for some colleges, it is worth it to get a STEM degree there over getting one from a Tech School. You get a more comprehensive study of the particular field, and it *can* pay off in the end.

But other than that I totally agree with you. (There are a small handful of schools that are exceptions, though).

Posted by: dan-O at March 28, 2014 10:04 AM (D0bIN)

68 This is where I point out (again) that my mom describes her 3 sons thusly: "I have two sons with college degrees, and one who makes money."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:04 AM (PYAXX)

69 ot early - but, someone over at American Spectator is hatin' on Michelle Malkin (he says in a nice way). Ouch.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (IXrOn)

70 I wish you fucking sock trolls wouldn't change your hashes every ten minutes. I have to reblock your stupid asses constantly.

Posted by: DangerGirl and her Sanity Prod (tm) at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (B2fm1)

71 I didn't get an English degree to make money.

Posted by: Teh Most Interesting Man at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (dTh2r)

72 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 28, 2014 01:59 PM (IHAZk) And don't call her Shirley.

Posted by: BignJames at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (j7iSn)

73

But is it worth the money they are now charging for it?

 

Well, that is the rub.  I went to college in the early Pleistocene when middle class parents could just pay the tuition at a good state university and you didn't come out with more debt than you'll make in ten years. 

 

I did take on debt for an MBA, but that was very much an economic decision.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (JtwS4)

74 computer science

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 01:59 PM (IXrOn)

Without a tasteful topless photo, that degree is worthless.

Posted by: Typical Piggish Moron at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (QFxY5)

75 “No two people should have such a huge influence on our politics.” -- Chuck Schumer

Yes, Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer have too much influence.

Posted by: William Shakespeare at March 28, 2014 10:05 AM (e8kgV)

76 If you just want to be a programmer, you definitely don't need the 4 year degree, outside of credentialism. There is however a lot more to CS than programming.

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 10:06 AM (E8IHS)

77 A degree in history from a responsible college that instills some good values in its students is still a worthy investment. The caveat is that there are fewer institutions now that seem to be well grounded. Hampden-Sydney College seems to be a well rounded, conservative school. In additon, the young men there say Sir and Ma'am, which is kind of quaint these days. "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it."

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at March 28, 2014 10:06 AM (l3vZN)

78 You won't be surprised to learn that computer science degrees

Don't be surprised when mgt. spends more time thinking about replacing you with an incompetent import mis-trained at taxpayer expense than growing the business while switching technologies faster than you can learn 1/3rd of them.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:06 AM (DL2i+)

79 as for six year degree to teach history. The degree includes a lot of classroom management stuff that most of us would call 'crap' - however there are laws and such that teachers are bound by. Also most states have elementary ed teachers (K-6 generally) teach all subjects. You don't get specialization until you get into middle/high school subjects.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 28, 2014 10:06 AM (4CVLy)

80 I read the part on the lowest-ranged colleges in the original sources, and noticed that most of those schools seemed to be in Alabama. Maybe a methodological problem is that not adjustment was made for cost of living: I wager no matter the profession, wages in Alabama tend to be lower than in say, New York or New Jersey. As do the costs of living... It's kinda relative. I haven't been back home to Alabama in over 25 years, so I can't really say, but when I was attending kollidge at UAH, that was a big engineering school. Of course, Marshall Space Flight Center still needed engineers at the time. Anyway, if you had a degree, you were shitting in tall cotton, because the cost of living was so low. Curiously, it was about even with Florida, which was why I moved here. I made more money in manufacturing than back home. Toby928 would know better, as would Ima Wurdibitsch, wherever she may be.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b][/u] at March 28, 2014 10:07 AM (0HooB)

81 8 One of my sons teaches college, and another one of my sons teach high school. Both of them say the absolute dumbest people they met in college were education majors.

Posted by: Furious George at March 28, 2014 01:54 PM (yFb77)


Precisely why DECADES ago I dropped out of college.  I looked around me and realized, "These dolts will be my peers for the rest of my life."  I meant to go back when I figured out what I wanted to do if I wasn't going to become a teacher.  Instead, I started making money and figured, "To hell with it all."

Posted by: kathysaysso at March 28, 2014 10:07 AM (6H6o8)

82 My son's private school specializes in non-traditional teaching methods (not special ed, just for kids that don't excel in public school). They purposely hire college graduates who did *not* get a degree in education and then provide them on the job training specific to their approach and education philosophy.
And they have just the best teachers you could imagine.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 28, 2014 10:07 AM (udjuE)

83 "Hab SoSlI' Quch"

Posted by: William Shakespeare at March 28, 2014 10:07 AM (e8kgV)

84 Teaching is a talent, not something that can be learned. The ability to successfully transfer knowledge from one individual to another is something people are born with, just like the talent to sing. No amount of education and hard work will endow a person with the ability to teach. They will be able to explain the theory, talk about methods, recite everything that should convey knowledge, in short do everything except actually have someone learn from their activity. Great teachers aren't made, they're discovered.

Posted by: jwest at March 28, 2014 10:07 AM (u2a4R)

85 Just as I thought it was going all right, I found out I was wrong....

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 28, 2014 10:07 AM (ZshNr)

86 I have a BA in international politics.  It helped develop and expand my pre-existing love for history/current events et al., but in terms of the job market?

Useless.  I get to say 'I have a college degree,' and that's pretty much it. 

Posted by: Washington Nearsider at March 28, 2014 10:08 AM (fwARV)

87 College is not a glorified, over expensive trade school. A college education is NOT about a job or a career, it is about becoming a better person, more learned and discerning, and understanding the world better. If you go to college to get a better job, you are better off going to the military, a trade school, or apprenticing somewhere. Unless you are going for a legal or medical profession; then you should use college.

I've never understood this.  Does anyone know a bunch of Philosophy, History, Poetry, and English graduate degree holders who are NOT total douchbag idiots?  Are they better people?  Of course there are exceptions, but I can't think of many.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:08 AM (9PrpA)

88 I would say no to the former, but yes (preferably in History) to the latter. Why? Is there some super sekrit way of presenting what's in the course material that isn't available to anyone else? It's not like you can come up with your own stuff. You have to teach what is in the book and then teach to the TASS/TACS Test. The state mandated achievement test.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 28, 2014 10:08 AM (ndIek)

89 I bet feminist studies majors make the bank.  Those objective, unbiased majors seem to have the mega-potential for success...

and are so full of friendly people.  Have you noticed?

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at March 28, 2014 10:08 AM (BZAd3)

90 There is however a lot more to CS than programming. That is absolutely true. But there's also a lot more to programming than CS. With no CS degree, I can expect (nevertheless) to be a Software/System Architect somewhere in a couple years- because I don't *need* the nitty-gritty of a CS degree. A CS degree (a good one- not one that's just a glorified certification course) teaches a lot of things I'll never need in my chose career path. However- people who do the really cool stuff? Build compilers, write DBMS from scratch, etc.? Yeah, totally a CS degree.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:08 AM (PYAXX)

91 >>Well, that is the rub. I went to college in the early Pleistocene when middle class parents could just pay the tuition at a good state university and you didn't come out with more debt than you'll make in ten years. Once again government intrusion has screwed up a good system. Once they got into the student loan business tuitions exploded. My tuition, room and board for 4 years is less than my nieces t, r and b for a single year.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 28, 2014 10:08 AM (g1DWB)

92 Hasn't it been pointed out here that the biggest driver of "everyone must go to college!" is the making of pre-employment aptitude tests illegal?

So, they had to resort to a college degree as a proxy.

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 28, 2014 10:09 AM (VjL9S)

93 computer science Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 01:59 PM (IXrOn) Without a tasteful topless photo, that degree is worthless. Posted by: Typical Piggish Moron at March 28, 2014 02:05 PM (QFxY5) /shrug I guess I had it all, then. I was able to retire very young. But, then, I had two majors...

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 10:09 AM (IXrOn)

94 An education degree is a prerequisite to becoming an administrator of a school, and, yes, that's where the big money in education is. Running a school is like running a large business, and some of the most incompetent business people I run across are school administrators.

Posted by: Furious George at March 28, 2014 10:09 AM (yFb77)

95 "It's around age 28 where all the bullshit-bullshit and excuses of the college years start falling away and people start realizing, damnit, I need to start making some money." Yeah, the homemade jewelry/candle businesses aren't going to get you on the cover of Forbes.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:09 AM (x3YFz)

96 oldest thunder child is a senior in HS. We were doing college fairs this fall. He was thinking about going to communication or getting a history or English degree. I love those subjects too, but they don't pay the rent. I told him he needed to think pragmatically As we went to all the tables set up at the job fairs, the booths were tended by lovely young graduates of the college they were "selling". I always asked them what their degrees were in. It was always Art History, Humanities, English, or Communications. I pointed out to him he would be manning a booth handing out brochures for very poor pay while he waited to hear about graduate school. Which is fine, if that's what you want

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:10 AM (zOTsN)

97 No wonder Ohio is the butt of so many jokes.  Go Buckeyes!

Teh heh heh

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at March 28, 2014 10:11 AM (BZAd3)

98 Great teachers aren't made, they're discovered. Posted by: jwest at March 28, 2014 02:07 PM (u2a4R) I used to hire Technical Instructors... CS guys who we then trained to run a classroom.... I figured out I could instruct them into being instructors.... but could not teach them to teach...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 10:11 AM (84gbM)

99 This whole education vs return was really brought home to me several years ago, when a dentist friend showed me some article with real numbers- Proving that if you became a plumber after high school vs going to dental school- the dentist didn't catch up with the earnings of the plumber until his mid-40s! He was not amused to say the least.

Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 10:11 AM (0cMkb)

100

But, then, I had two majors...

 

 

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 02:09 PM (IXrOn)

 

Is that what you call the twins?  'Majors'?  Nice touch, Ms. 'Double-Majors'.

Posted by: Washington Nearsider at March 28, 2014 10:12 AM (fwARV)

101 Get the government out of the student loan business and it would offset the massive financial loss that college unfortunately has become for many people.

Posted by: brak at March 28, 2014 10:12 AM (NaTky)

102 I got through all three years of law school for about 15k in the dark ages. Now under graduate tuition at your basic land grant university are about 35k

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:12 AM (zOTsN)

103 EE's, ME's make a crap ton of money out of the gate. HVAC and Civil Engineers also do well. We physicists either become program managers or die penniless in front of a chessboard.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:12 AM (x3YFz)

104 "Yes. A modern "University" does not grant a University Education, at least in the classical sense."
Correct, education at all levels has been nearly lost. There are a few exceptions out there, but even the most prestigious formerly excellent institutions like Princeton have slumped into trash education for luxury prices. Which is why we get this:
" Does anyone know a bunch of Philosophy, History, Poetry, and English graduate degree holders who are NOT total douchbag idiots? Are they better people? Of course there are exceptions, but I can't think of many."
Because the education you're supposed to get, you aren't. Instead its a mix of confirmation of your douchey idiocy and indoctrination into Zinnian history and leftist trash.
Which again is why I say don't go to college, don't send your kid to college, and don't plan on it, unless you're specifically going for a job that requires a specific degree like medicine.
Invest in your kid by giving them the money to start a business or get them into the military but not college.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:12 AM (zfY+H)

105 With no CS degree, I can expect (nevertheless) to be a Software/System Architect somewhere in a couple years- because I don't *need* the nitty-gritty of a CS degree. A CS degree (a good one- not one that's just a glorified certification course) teaches a lot of things I'll never need in my chose career path. However- people who do the really cool stuff? Build compilers, write DBMS from scratch, etc.? Yeah, totally a CS degree. Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 02:08 PM (PYAXX) Agreed. I think for a lot of people a 2 year programming degree should be enough. Cram it all in, then go get experience. I am really glad I did my BS/Masters though.

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 10:12 AM (E8IHS)

106 English majors are a common undergraduate degree for attorneys. The graph on that major's salaries must look like a 90 degree ramp.

Posted by: Bad mother...shut you mouth at March 28, 2014 10:13 AM (1rEgY)

107 Money is not everything in this world. Look at President and michelle Obama and all the community service he did for very little money. We should all follow his model and try to help those screwed over by Bush and his policies.

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 10:13 AM (mwDO5)

108 It's around age 28 where all the bullshit-bullshit and excuses of the college years start falling away and people start realizing, damnit, I need to start making some money. Fuck, Ace wants Obamacare to go to age 28 now...sigh

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:13 AM (BCTnr)

109 Holy cripes and schnikies!  You have to pay people to work for them?  I gotta start me a business like that. 

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (BZAd3)

110 Yes, colleges suck at their job, but that doesn't change what their job is supposed to be. If you spend $100,000 trying to get a better paying job, there's nobody dumber on earth than you.

HA!  BYU grad here.  $2,500 per semester.  Living in Provo, UT with $250/month rent.  I came out of school with $7K in debt.  I paid it off in less than a year.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (9PrpA)

111 I am not surprised by that list at all. Cooper Union has a decent engineering program and used to be FREE (I think they are charging a bit now, but it is still a bargain). Cooper put his fortune into helping working class kids in NYC get college education. University of Washington is a no brainer too since it has a decent computer science program (along with engineering, etc., etc.) and feeds into good paying tech jobs in Seattle. And the tuition is not that bad considering. The California Silcon Valley schools also feed you into awesome tech jobs, but you have to consider you will be paying a $1,000,000+ for a crappy house there and a boat load more taxes than say in Washington State, so be warned. Of course, the Google stock options look better now than Microsoft and they do give you free lunch (including bacon and lobster).

Posted by: Evi. L. Bloggerlady at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (4kTo2)

112 My fallback, no shit, need to make money plan is move to San Antonio and fix air conditioners, cash under the table. Laugh if you want but you can rake in $2K a week.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (x3YFz)

113 "And I really have trouble believing that teachers should spend most of their time studying, in a meta, bullshitty sort of way, the Theory of Education, as opposed to studying a specific subject matter (math, history, whatever else)."



Yes in secondary education, no in primary. I think a lot of teachers know a lot, but they have no clue how to teach or takeover a classroom.

Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (WdbF7)

114 I really feel sorry though for all the kids graduating over the next few years who actually have great majors and great grades and are getting docked over because of Obama and his lousy policies. Lots of kids are really getting screwed. Even majors like biomedical engineering, etc thanks to Obamacare laws. TFG is TFG.

Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (0cMkb)

115 Teaching is a talent, not something that can be learned. Bzzzzt. Thanks for trying. One may indeed have a talent for teaching, but it can be learned as well. In fact, often the ones who had to "learn to teach" are better teachers than those with "talent" because their work-ethic is better. Why? Is there some super sekrit way of presenting what's in the course material that isn't available to anyone else? 1- Districts/the State actually have much less control over the specific classrooms than you'd think. 2- No, there's not a secret way of presenting it, but actual knowledge and understanding of the source material is invaluable. It's one thing to be able to read from the book, it's another thing to understand what you're reading well enough to be able to help the kids *understand* what you're reading in the book. Let's get away from history- how about math? Sure, you can read what's in the textbook, but a teacher who actually understands the math will be better able to give alternative explanations/instructions to kids who don't comprehend the textbook as well.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (PYAXX)

116 biggest bang for your buck is the school for mining in SD.

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (zOTsN)

117 My cousin has two daughters. She sent one to a local university and she turned into an idiot raving leftist artsy type. Her other daughter, just now 18 is a sweet conservative-leaning girl who is being sent to the same university. Guess how she'll turn out?
Its child abuse to do this to your kids. You're responsible for guys like Obama being in office. You're helping the left churn out Democrat Voters.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:14 AM (zfY+H)

118 As long as you don't get too picky, there are tons of jobs.

The trailing edge is out there waiting to maroon you too.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:15 AM (DL2i+)

119 For most people, college is a four year vacation from reality that's about 10x as expensive as traveling the world for four years.

Posted by: mugiwara at March 28, 2014 10:15 AM (pBbam)

120 To carry over the discussion on Under the Skin, a story you should read is The Girl with the Jade Green Eyes.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Girl-Jade-Green-Eyes/dp/0140049967

What human male would not be entranced by a beautiful alien woman with beguiling jade green eyes innocently asking for some nuclear fuel for her spaceship?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 28, 2014 10:15 AM (IHAZk)

121 "83 Teaching is a talent, not something that can be learned. " I disagree. We are just teaching teachers the wrong way. My husband works for a private education company whose name you would know. He does a lot of professional development for public school teachers. Without fail, they all tell him that the methods he teaches are superior to anything they ever learned in college or anywhere else. Why? Because those techniques were developed for a for-profit company that demands real world results.

Posted by: Lauren at March 28, 2014 10:15 AM (hFL/3)

122 "It's no secret that, pound for pound, Education majors are the dumbest students on a campus."

They should watch out, the journalism majors are hot on their heels!

Posted by: navybrat at March 28, 2014 10:15 AM (JgC5a)

123 if you graduated from either the Colorado or South Dakota School of Engineering and Mines, you will never know debt they are fighting over graduates

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:16 AM (zOTsN)

124 "HA! BYU grad here. $2,500 per semester. Living in Provo, UT with $250/month rent. I came out of school with $7K in debt. I paid it off in less than a year."
Going to Community College for the core stuff in your first 2 years saves a crapload of money too. But again, leave college alone. Except in a few very tiny instances, the education is awful the cost is insanely high, and the results are massive debt for little return.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:16 AM (zfY+H)

125 Reform proposal: All colleges must cosign all student loans to its students. Discuss among yourselves.

Posted by: Furious George at March 28, 2014 10:16 AM (yFb77)

126

One of the best things teh Newt ever said was "you could have a PhD in History and speak fluent German and you couldn't teach German History in a public high school". 

 

If we split this thread into "are liberal arts degrees useless" on the one hand and "are education degrees useless" on the other, my answers are no and yes.

 

There are times I'd like to be a teacher.  I taught an elective at a private high school (for dirt), I have a lot of life experience and two degrees.  But in order to get a regular teaching job I need two more years of grad school learning cant and agitprop? Not gonna happen.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at March 28, 2014 10:16 AM (JtwS4)

127 Really proud that my alma mater Colorado School of Mines is actually #5 in overall ROI and #1 for in-state tuition ROI. Not bad for a little engineering school in a town more famous for it's brewery. Just watch out for that 67% graduation rate and 4:1 male:female ratio. You get a good job when (more like if) you graduate, but the classes are designed to kick your ass and there are no girls around.

Posted by: ch3cooh at March 28, 2014 10:16 AM (IG5KL)

128 Holy cripes and schnikies! You have to pay people to work for them? I gotta start me a business like that. Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at March 28, 2014 02:14 PM (BZAd3) I lived in an area where it was an open secret that in order to get a teaching job in the local public school system you either had to be a blood relative of someone on the school board or you had to pay a little something something (by which I mean more or less your first year's salary) to get that job.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD/Orion Death Star 2016 at March 28, 2014 10:17 AM (mf5HN)

129 I come from a family with a lot of teachers and I think they are paid pretty well in the public school setting, at least in California. The problem is getting your foot in the door (unions). If you want to teach high school you probably won't have any problem finding work. If you want to teach elementary you are probably shit out of luck right now. Also Charter schools seem to be picking up a lot of grads from other disciplines, I see a lot of sociology, comm, and so on.

Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 28, 2014 10:17 AM (WdbF7)

130 "It's not about the money, man, it's about like, changing the world with our minds, and stuff."

Posted by: Adrienne at March 28, 2014 10:17 AM (lVcuh)

131 >>>I've never understood this. Does anyone know a bunch of Philosophy, History, Poetry, and English graduate degree holders who are NOT total douchbag idiots? Are they better people? Of course there are exceptions, but I can't think of many.

Posted by: bonhomme at March 28, 2014 02:08 PM (9PrpA)

 

This attitude is how we ended up with the most amazing gadgets that were the stuff of science fiction thirty years ago, and also a population that can't find Afghanistan on a map when we've been fighting there for a decade and can't understand why we can't like, all get along man.

Posted by: Paul at March 28, 2014 10:18 AM (9qDRl)

132 Normal people wouldn't ever suspend a student for biting a Pop-Tart into a vaguely gun-shaped outline, or for wearing the wrong message on a T-shirt, or for shaving their head in sympathy with their cancer-fighting friend. We need to preserve our Colleges of Education to produce teachers and administrators with the kind of bigotry, ignorance, and lack of reasoning that our government-run school system demands.

Posted by: Socratease at March 28, 2014 10:18 AM (82qVG)

133 >> Which again is why I say don't go to college, don't send your kid to college, and don't plan on it, unless you're specifically going for a job that requires a specific degree like medicine.

There are colleges that are worth considering for a solid liberal arts education, though. They aren't big names, and you won't get the Credential Prestige from them, but you will get a sound education. Some that I have at least heard good things about:
Hillsdale College
Ave Maria University
Thomas Aquinas College
University of Dallas
Benedictine University
And others too.

Posted by: dan-O at March 28, 2014 10:19 AM (D0bIN)

134 I bet feminist studies majors make the bank.

Go to usajobs.gov and see how much we're paying people who have majored in the assorted Grievance Studies.

Posted by: HR Go Cyclones! at March 28, 2014 10:19 AM (ZKzrr)

135 Really proud that my alma mater Colorado School of Mines is actually #5 in overall ROI and #1 for in-state tuition ROI. Not bad for a little engineering school in a town more famous for it's brewery. Just watch out for that 67% graduation rate and 4:1 male:female ratio. You get a good job when (more like if) you graduate, but the classes are designed to kick your ass and there are no girls around. Posted by: ch3cooh same for the school in SD those graduates get snapped up in bidding wars with employers

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:19 AM (zOTsN)

136 Spent a few years dicking around nightschool/CC. Then I got serious about working and gave up the college crap. Broke the 6 figure threshold last year after 20+ years of 60 hour work weeks. I have no negative debt and a growing nest egg. Having no kids is certainly helpful but my wife's health issues and spending habits offset that.  I'm not bragging. The point is- there is no short cuts in life, it is hard. College does not teach the real word and work ethic.

Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 10:19 AM (NpXoL)

137 Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 02:14 PM (PYAXX) What I find amazing is that there is no 'in' the classroom oversight of Teachers.... NONE. Once you get past your student teaching (and even for most of that) there is no one looking over your shoulder at all... no one to watch how you interact with students.... and no JUNIOR Teachers watching Senior Teachers how they work. Every single teacher in Public education, ends up reinventing the wheel... and a lot of those come out square... Now... IMO common core goes TOO far... and makes HOW your instruct controlled by the Federal Government.... which will make education even worse IMO (as it gets more Politicized)...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 10:19 AM (84gbM)

138 Of course, the Google stock options look better now than Microsoft and they do give you free lunch (including bacon and lobster). Posted by: Evi. L. Bloggerlady at March 28, 2014 02:14 PM (4kTo2) Visited the NYC Google building. I love my job, but I got so friggin jealous of their food.

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 10:20 AM (E8IHS)

139 There are colleges that are worth considering for a solid liberal arts education, though. They aren't big names, and you won't get the Credential Prestige from them, but you will get a sound education. Some that I have at least heard good things about:
Hillsdale College
Ave Maria University
Thomas Aquinas College
University of Dallas
Benedictine University
And others too.

Posted by: dan-O at March 28, 2014 02:19 PM (D0bIN)

 

Hillsdale is phenomenal, but expensive as fuck.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 10:20 AM (DrWcr)

140 Really proud that my alma mater Colorado School of Mines is actually #5 in overall ROI and #1 for in-state tuition ROI. Not bad for a little engineering school in a town more famous for it's brewery. Just watch out for that 67% graduation rate and 4:1 male:female ratio. You get a good job when (more like if) you graduate, but the classes are designed to kick your ass and there are no girls around. Posted by: ch3cooh at March 28, 2014 02:16 PM (IG5KL) Isn't the Colorado School of Mines considered one of the, if not the, most difficult college from which to get an undergraduate degree? I mean that as a compliment.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD/Orion Death Star 2016 at March 28, 2014 10:20 AM (mf5HN)

141 98 This whole education vs return was really brought home to me several years ago, when a dentist friend showed me some article with real numbers-

Proving that if you became a plumber after high school vs going to dental school-

the dentist didn't catch up with the earnings of the plumber until his mid-40s!


He was not amused to say the least.
============

Same for lawyers.

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 28, 2014 10:20 AM (VjL9S)

142 Back when I was telling them where to put this new thing called "dirt," the very best mechanical engineers were machinists first. They worked their way up from the shop floor and were actively recruited by management specifically because they knew what they were doing. Experience was valued back then, so was manufacturing. These days, not so much. I still wonder what our economy (and society, too) would look like if we made our own products instead of subcontracting it to our enemies.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b][/u] at March 28, 2014 10:20 AM (0HooB)

143 Posted by: ch3cooh LOL... used to Fence with the Metalica Scholarum there.... or the White Asses as they were known...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 10:21 AM (84gbM)

144 He was not amused to say the least. Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 02:11 PM (0cMkb) You do realize that we live past our 40s, right? Or are we fully committing to the AoSHQ lifestyle now?

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 10:21 AM (E8IHS)

145 121 "It's no secret that, pound for pound, Education majors are the dumbest students on a campus." They should watch out, the journalism majors are hot on their heels! Posted by: navybrat at March 28, 2014 02:15 PM (JgC5a) My wife is finishing her PhD in education (corporate focus, not kiddie stuff). She's pretty smart. I've read her papers and go: "wow." But we're cut from different cloth. Don't be so quick to judge.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:21 AM (x3YFz)

146 "The Caltech comp science guy is, look, coming into the classroom a lot smarter than the Murray State Arts grad. Even if they both dropped out of school on the first day of classes, the guy who was at Caltech would make more money that the Murray State student." ------------------- Yeah, this is one of the problems with the "Harvard is a better deal than East Podunk" argument. The fact is that future income is far more related to basic IQ and SAT scores than to the school you attend. You start as a silk purse and you'll end up a silk purse, wherever you go. And (semi-OT)....WAHOO-WAH.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 28, 2014 10:21 AM (dfYL9)

147 Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 02:19 PM (NpXoL)

But you live in NJ....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (QFxY5)

148 What I find amazing is that there is no 'in' the classroom oversight of Teachers.... NONE. Ummm... what? Maybe it's different here in TX, but Teachers are supposed to be evaluated at least twice a year (and some school districts do 4 times- with at least one of those being a surprise eval). Also, in TX, a lot of teacher quality is dependent on your school district. The same teacher in one ISD might suck eggs, but in another ISD (one with better administration) suddenly becomes... well, at least competent.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (PYAXX)

149 I would disagree on Education degree.

While their starting salaries and even salary through the years is less than some other degrees, the teacher pension system allows them to retire at age 55 in a lot of states with full benefits and about 75% of their highest salary - for life!

They often start other careers.  I would venture a guess that Ed majors who work in teaching through retirement have a much higher lifetime earning potential than many of those other degrees.

Posted by: Chitown-Jerry at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (Z7PrM)

150 I have a degree in comp sci here is the course load for it Calculus I Calculus II Linear algebra Programming methods I Elementary discrete structures and applications Programming methods II Data structures Programming languages Operating systems Electives: vector calculus, digital electronics An English degree course load at the same school ENG 300 Eng 301 Eng 302 Eng 303 Eng 307 Eng 308 Eng 350 Eng 338 One degree is valuable one degree is valueless.

Posted by: Kreplach at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (IS2o0)

151 I wanted to c**t punch my first lily white college history teacher when she claimed there was "an element of racism" to nuking Japan.

Posted by: Adam at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (Aif/5)

152 "One may indeed have a talent for teaching, but it can be learned as well. In fact, often the ones who had to "learn to teach" are better teachers than those with "talent" because their work-ethic is better." Sorry, that's just not the case. Talentless "teachers" are the ones who think they're doing everything right - everything they've been taught to do - but still don't recognize that blank stare or the spark in a kid's eye when they begin to understand a new concept. When these people who shouldn't be in the teaching profession fail, they believe the problem is on the other end, because they followed the lesson plan. In teaching, you've either got it or you don't. If you don't, you'll never have it.

Posted by: jwest at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (u2a4R)

153 116 Its child abuse to do this to your kids. You're responsible for guys like Obama being in office. You're helping the left churn out Democrat Voters. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 02:14 PM (zfY+H Its called free will or free choice..... All a parent can do is train them the best that they can. The rest is up to the child. Fuck, you talk like you are related to Mr. Moo Moo.

Posted by: Misanthopic Humanitarian at March 28, 2014 10:22 AM (HVff2)

154 One of the worst lies we tell young people is that they have to go to college. When I graduated high school way back in 1983, I just assumed college was next, there wasn't any room for questioning that. It was just part of the process, like Middle School (Jr High then) was after Grade School. It was a huge waste of money in a lot of ways, took me decades to pay the private school loans back, and I got some serious grants due to poverty.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (zfY+H)

155 They should just start working after high school Jeez, you socons want to curse everyone with a baby and enslave everyone with a job!

Posted by: Pajama Boy at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (FcR7P)

156 This attitude is how we ended up with the most amazing gadgets that were the stuff of science fiction thirty years ago, and also a population that can't find Afghanistan on a map when we've been fighting there for a decade and can't understand why we can't like, all get along man.

Not sure what you mean.  I'm talking about my observations of the people who go through the "make you a better person" degrees.  I admit it's not scientific, but neither is the attitude that "those degrees will make you a better person," without actually checking to see if those people become better persons.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (4QSOR)

157 Isn't the Colorado School of Mines considered one of the, if not the, most difficult college from which to get an undergraduate degree? I mean that as a compliment. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD/Orion Death Star 2016 at March 28, 2014 Yes. It is.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (x3YFz)

158 You do realize that we live past our 40s, right?

If you vote right, and have enough melanin.

Posted by: Your Friendly Local IPAB at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (ZKzrr)

159 The problem is this data is from Payscale.com. it's not a scientific survey, but a collection of people who happened to report their income onthe internet. So, the results are pretty suspect.

Posted by: AD at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (q0LAu)

160 A college degree became the substitute for employment testing when the wizards on the U.S. Supreme Court decided Griggs v. Duke Power. This! All hail credentialism!

Posted by: toby928© at March 28, 2014 10:23 AM (QupBk)

161 Oh Yea more graduates from mining schools to scare the earth and create a larger carbon footprint to accelerate global climate change. we need to look at renewable resources and maybe lower our quality if living rather than hogging up all the resources. Other countries need to be considered also when it come to the Earth's natural resouces people........

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 10:24 AM (h0ygp)

162 To carry over the discussion on Under the Skin, a story you should read is The Girl with the Jade Green Eyes. http://www.amazon.com/The-Girl-Jade-Green-Eyes/dp/0140049967 What human male would not be entranced by a beautiful alien woman with beguiling jade green eyes innocently asking for some nuclear fuel for her spaceship? Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 28, 2014 02:15 PM (IHAZk) The price is certainly right. Consider it done. Below from the other thread but posted after it died: They really pared down the story to basically making her character a serial predator/killer cruising Scotland for her victims. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 28, 2014 01:47 PM (IHAZk) Yeah, that's really a shame. If they'd followed the story, had some good special effects, it could've been an SF classic. Just the "3 guys escape" sequence would've sent goosebumps up the spine as well as being a great dark humor action set piece. But, n-n-n-n-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! As it is, the movie (from the reviews) appears to have no real story or point, other than nekkid ScarJo killing dudes, which is not the novel's story at all! I recommend reading "Under the Skin". Just try not to find out anything about it before you read, there are some pretty good twists and turns in the novel. It's on Kindle.

Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 10:24 AM (0cMkb)

163 One. More. Hour. I am so over this week. Hell, this month.

Posted by: DangerGirl and her Sanity Prod (tm) at March 28, 2014 10:24 AM (waJ+2)

164 "Its called free will or free choice..... All a parent can do is train them the best that they can."
Sending your kid to an institution practically designed to make kids into leftists is a horrific parenting decision.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:24 AM (zfY+H)

165 They often start other careers. ------- I had a math teacher in high school who had retired from teaching in Alabama and then moved an hour east and started teaching in Georgia.

Posted by: Adam at March 28, 2014 10:24 AM (Aif/5)

166 Public education is nothing more than a jobs program for stupid and greedy adults.

We've already established that they are--on average--the stupidest of graduates.

But, they are also greedy, for they are more than happy to steal the future from our children by giving them a shitty education.



 

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 28, 2014 10:25 AM (VjL9S)

167 HR, speaking of USAJOBS.  I guess I should apply for this job.

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/365513900

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 28, 2014 10:25 AM (IHAZk)

168 Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 02:21 PM (E8IHS)

Of course we live past our 40s nowadays, but that plumber has been stuffing money into his IRA for 20 years, while the dentist has been paying off his school loans.

The plumber will retire 10 years before the dentist.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:25 AM (QFxY5)

169 Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 02:22 PM (PYAXX) Can't speak as to texas... but in California? None.... in Colorado? there is a formal eval once a year, but its just a paper eval, with the evaluator most of the time not even in the classroom... (per my Ex Live in Lady, who was a Senior Middle School Math teacher in CO).

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 10:25 AM (84gbM)

170

Engineering has been good to me. Hasn't made me rich, and hasn't been fun ... but it's been steady.

 

And part of that is my fault. I never left the Ohio Valley. And I refused to go into management.

 

All the same, I'm steering my kids into something else.

Posted by: ScoggDog at March 28, 2014 10:26 AM (re1VY)

171 "Talentless "teachers" are the ones who think they're doing everything right - everything they've been taught to do - but still don't recognize that blank stare or the spark in a kid's eye when they begin to understand a new concept." And that's bad technique. Students shouldn't be allowed to simply sit around with blank stares. Socratic method, bitches.

Posted by: Lauren at March 28, 2014 10:26 AM (hFL/3)

172 Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 02:25 PM (84gbM) Gag. Glad I grew up in TX then.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:26 AM (PYAXX)

173 Its child abuse to do this to your kids. You're responsible for guys like Obama being in office. You're helping the left churn out Democrat Voters.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 02:14 PM (zfY+H


I went to a right leaning religious school with conservative professors, some of my "friends" still came out like leftist assholes. I have no idea why. Probably already in the family

Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 28, 2014 10:26 AM (WdbF7)

174 All in all you are a very dying race
Placing trust upon a cruel world.
You never had the things you thought you should have had
And you'll not get them now,
And all the while in perfect time
Your tears are falling on the ground.

Posted by: that 70s earworm at March 28, 2014 10:27 AM (3ZtZW)

175 160 Oh Yea more graduates from mining schools to scare the earth and create a larger carbon footprint to accelerate global climate change. we need to look at renewable resources and maybe lower our quality if living rather than hogging up all the resources. Other countries need to be considered also when it come to the Earth's natural resouces people........ Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 02:24 PM (h0ygp) You've "got" to include the /sarc tag sometimes. Occasionally, I can't tell.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:27 AM (x3YFz)

176 It's around age 28 where all the bullshit-bullshit and excuses of the college years start falling away and people start realizing, damnit, I need to start making some money. Or not. See "hipsters"

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/b] [/s] [/u] at March 28, 2014 10:27 AM (HsTG8)

177 Can't speak as to texas... but in California? None.... in Colorado? there is a formal eval once a year, but its just a paper eval, with the evaluator most of the time not even in the classroom... (per my Ex Live in Lady, who was a Senior Middle School Math teacher in CO).

In WA there are in-class observations by Administration.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:27 AM (4QSOR)

178 Flunked out of college myself, but already had experience programming computers and never had a problem finding a job. Businesses in the 80's didn't care too much about the lack of degree if you had 10 years in the business on your resume. Not sure that's true anymore.

Posted by: Socratease at March 28, 2014 10:28 AM (82qVG)

179 Oh Yea more graduates from mining schools to scare the earth and create a larger carbon footprint to accelerate global climate change. we need to look at renewable resources and maybe lower our quality if living rather than hogging up all the resources. Other countries need to be considered also when it come to the Earth's natural resouces people........ Posted by: Dorcus Blimline how does one "scare" the earth?

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:28 AM (zOTsN)

180 Kid got a full four year scholarship for next year. Saves me $250,000. Double major of Chinese and finance.

Posted by: NCKate at March 28, 2014 10:28 AM (O7+D2)

181 Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 02:19 PM (NpXoL)

But you live in NJ....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 02:22 PM (QFxY5)

*



Yeah... for NJ I'm not a world-beater but I'm only 43 and just getting warmed-up!

ヅ







Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 10:28 AM (NpXoL)

182 163 "Its called free will or free choice..... All a parent can do is train them the best that they can." Sending your kid to an institution practically designed to make kids into leftists is a horrific parenting decision. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 02:24 PM (zfY+H) All of my children graduated HS at age 18. From there they went to school on their own. I had no say on where they went to school as they are paying/have paid for it themselves. Where I'm from an 18 year old is an adult and can do as they choose/please.

Posted by: Misanthopic Humanitarian at March 28, 2014 10:28 AM (HVff2)

183
Isn't the Colorado School of Mines considered one of the, if not the, most difficult college from which to get an undergraduate degree?

I mean that as a compliment.

IIRC, Harvey Mudd beats it out, but not by much. 

Posted by: Colorado Alex at March 28, 2014 10:28 AM (b6nAI)

184 And what do almost ALL of these colleges have in common? They are all Black legacy colleges built during the separate but equal times in the South. They should all be closed and save the taxpayer millions of dollar. Why aren't they? Guess. Racism!

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (0FSuD)

185 Standford?

Posted by: I Want to Hi5 Your Face at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (DTBbS)

186

Double major of Chinese and finance.

 

 

Your kid maybe want to adopt me?

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (JtwS4)

187 Ugh. I can't escape the troll/socktroll even when blocked.

Posted by: DangerGirl and her Sanity Prod (tm) at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (waJ+2)

188 how does one "scare" the earth?

Remind it that one day it'll hold Nancy Pelosi's mouldering corpse inside it.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (4QSOR)

189 And that's bad technique. Students shouldn't be allowed to simply sit around with blank stares. Socratic method, bitches. This. And technique is learned. A very talented teacher can make the same mistakes. It does take coaching (as opposed to instruction), but almost anyone can become an adequate, if not a "good" teacher. The highly talented ones need less coaching, those with little or no talent require more. The ones with no talent who, nevertheless, submit to the coaching and commit to improving often end up as "good" teachers- good enough that you'd never know they were "talentless" when they started.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (PYAXX)

190 You do realize that we live past our 40s, right? Or are we fully committing to the AoSHQ lifestyle now? Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 02:21 PM (E8IHS) Those hoboes are filled with lots of toxic additives. Not to mention the Val-U-Rite.

Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 10:29 AM (0cMkb)

191 In WA there are in-class observations by Administration. Posted by: bonhomme at March 28, 2014 02:27 PM (4QSOR) Ask the teachers there if they are actually done? or is it just a paper chase? And how long do the admins sit in the classroom if they are done? 5 minutes? an hour? a day?

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 28, 2014 10:30 AM (84gbM)

192 "I had no say on where they went to school as they are paying/have paid for it themselves. Where I'm from an 18 year old is an adult and can do as they choose/please. " If they're paying for it themselves, that's definitely a fair point. Parents can guide things a bit though by telling their kids that they won't chip in on any degree ending with -studies.

Posted by: Lauren at March 28, 2014 10:30 AM (hFL/3)

193 173 All in all you are a very dying race Placing trust upon a cruel world. You never had the things you thought you should have had And you'll not get them now, And all the while in perfect time Your tears are falling on the ground. Posted by: that 70s earworm at March 28, 2014 02:27 PM (3ZtZW) Song lyrics? 1) not a race, a species, and dying? shoot, can't wave a dead cat without hitting a LIV at Walmart, so not so much 2) I don't trust this world! Fucker tries to kill me constantly. 3) I have all my guns 4) the rest is just whining.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:30 AM (x3YFz)

194 Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 02:28 PM (NpXoL)

It was a joke! I live in NJ also......

And are you going to come to the NY/NJ Moron Meet-up on May 1st?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:31 AM (QFxY5)

195 This is what I tell my stepsons and anybody else who will listen: College is really only for a limited subset of the population. Don't think of it as a ticket to be punched after high school because you're going to lose time and money that way. If you really, really want to go to a 4-year school then do so, but only if you have thought it through. If you have significant doubts about it you might be better off learning a trade.

(It's also worth noting that a welder or an HVAC guy will make a good deal more than your average Women's Chicano Lesbian Studies major right out of the gate and probably for the foreseeable future.)

Posted by: joncelli at March 28, 2014 10:31 AM (RD7QR)

196 "Kid got a full four year scholarship for next year. Saves me $250,000. Double major of Chinese and finance."

The next Chair of the fed, understands money and who we owe it to.

Posted by: lowandslow at March 28, 2014 10:32 AM (IV4od)

197 Ask the teachers there if they are actually done? or is it just a paper chase?

And how long do the admins sit in the classroom if they are done? 5 minutes? an hour? a day?

Yes and two hours, 2x per year.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:32 AM (44jNh)

198 Harvey Mudd, is going to make Claremont, Scripps, Pomona, and Pitzer jealous. Scripps will probably claim sexism though.

Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 28, 2014 10:32 AM (WdbF7)

199 So he can work the register at Peking Wok?

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 28, 2014 10:33 AM (ZshNr)

200 I demand an income!!!

Posted by: Women's Studies Major specializing in African American midwifery in Alice Walker novels at March 28, 2014 10:33 AM (Aif/5)

201 This is similar to an ILS degree for librarians. A masters degree for in all kinds of bullshitty "Information Management" type classes that they will never use for their low paid job.

Posted by: Max Power at March 28, 2014 10:33 AM (q177U)

202 Those hoboes are filled with lots of toxic additives. Not to mention the Val-U-Rite. Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 02:29 PM (0cMkb) Aww. Now ya done it. Not hobos. Morons. Bag minus cat.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:33 AM (x3YFz)

203 Oh Yea more graduates from mining schools to scare the earth I don't think the earth scares that easy....

Posted by: rickb223 at March 28, 2014 10:33 AM (ndIek)

204 I met a kid yesterday, he is 20, doing electrical apprenticeship. He told me he started a 401k already.
That kid is going to do just fine.

Posted by: navybrat at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (JgC5a)

205 Pound for pound, we can't be topped!

Posted by: Womyn's Studies Major at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (LSJmV)

206 O/T

This just in.....

Malaysian search flight claims to have found Australia!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (QFxY5)

207 138 Hillsdale is phenomenal, but expensive as fuck. Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 02:20 PM (DrWcr) ------------------------ Compared to what? It's no more than the average liberal arts college today. Nearly everyone has a (privately funded) scholarship that knocks the list price down. Then there are merit scholarships for the academically topnotch. And athletic, music, other forms of aid.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (dfYL9)

208 (It's also worth noting that a welder or an HVAC guy will make a good deal more than your average Women's Chicano Lesbian Studies major right out of the gate and probably for the foreseeable future.)

Please to be noting, welding is hard.  A whole lot of people can't learn to do it well.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (44jNh)

209 Christie's news conference is on....

Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/u][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (bCEmE)

210 "I am very skeptical that the Theory of Education itself can be gainfully studied as a four-year major. I have to think that after the first four or five courses, there's a lot of repetition, and a lot of higher abstract theorizing that very few in-the-field teachers have need of." This is why teacher's unions HATE homeschooling. It proves exactly your point. Even those first "four or five courses" are not college-level material, but maybe worth a few seminars on a weekend. Virginia says that if you have a high school diploma, you're likely smart enough to teach your kid up through high school. (That's not including the "religious exemption" rule.) And, that's really how it should work.

Posted by: GWB at March 28, 2014 10:34 AM (zFh/A)

211

Blow me Dorcus Blimline you waste of human flesh. Don't know if you are male, female or "OTHER" !!!!

 

Posted by: Richard Cranium at March 28, 2014 10:35 AM (73K2W)

212 (It's also worth noting that a welder or an HVAC guy will make a good deal more than your average Women's Chicano Lesbian Studies major right out of the gate and probably for the foreseeable future.)

Sexism!
Gender wage gap!
MOAR LEGISLASHUNZ!!!

Posted by: WhiteHouse Twitter Feed at March 28, 2014 10:35 AM (ZKzrr)

213 In high school, I really wanted to attend one of the private Boston schools. I managed to get into several, but as a white male with two married parents and breath that doesn't have an aroma of penis, there was no scholarship money coming my way. It was then that my parents sat me down and explained, "mugi, we don't have the $45000/year it's gonna cost to send you there, and we know you sure as he'll don't either. Enjoy SUNY!" Loans paid off by age 24, homeowner by age 27. Best disappointment of my life.

Posted by: mugiwara at March 28, 2014 10:35 AM (pBbam)

214 College is really only for a limited subset of the population. That was true until the Democrats needed another campaign issue: COLLEGE FOR EVERYONE! As usual, there were unintended consequences, like devaluing a college degree and selling a generation into indentured servitude. But as long as they got re-elected, it was all for a good cause!

Posted by: Socratease at March 28, 2014 10:35 AM (82qVG)

215

>>>>Song lyrics?

 

 

Squonk

Posted by: that 70s earworm at March 28, 2014 10:35 AM (3ZtZW)

216 As Hillary would say, "What difference, at this point does it make?  If even one tenth of the headlines on Drudge are true, they're dead!  And that's just today's headlines!


Pretty sure she'd say that.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at March 28, 2014 10:36 AM (BZAd3)

217 Oh, and to be clear I'm not saying that there aren't teachers out there who are crappy despite great training. Some people are just worthless teachers, despite whatever they've learned. I'm just saying that the way we teach teachers DEFINITELY impacts how they teach and their student outcomes.

Posted by: Lauren at March 28, 2014 10:36 AM (hFL/3)

218 It's around age 28 where all the bullshit-bullshit and excuses of the college years start falling away and people start realizing, damnit, I need to start making some money. It was after 25 that I started getting worried. Like 25 is the halfway point from teenagerdom to holy crap I'm 30-dom.

Posted by: eleven at March 28, 2014 10:36 AM (GXZgZ)

219 Speaking of teachers . . . I will always remember my HS Math Teacher, Wally Lord, a big 6'2"+,250+ pound guy, who normally spoke in the softest of voices.  When introducing the concept of factorials, he wrote 4! on the board, and, after inquiring if anyone knew what that was, pronounced in the loudest, most booming voice, "FOUR!"

I loved that guy.

Posted by: flounder at March 28, 2014 10:37 AM (Kkt/i)

220 Please to be noting, welding is hard.

Also useful, which is why John Q Snowflake must be discouraged from pursing it as a career.

Posted by: HR at March 28, 2014 10:37 AM (ZKzrr)

221 I have a couple of in-laws that are working $9/hr jobs.  After asking here I got some good suggestions about what I can recommend to them.

I got:
Truck driver.
Machinist.
OSHA Compliance Officer.

So I did some research and had a quiet chat with each of them.  Basic response was, "I don't wanna do that."

Ok then.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:37 AM (44jNh)

222 welding is hard.

Posted by: bonhomme at March 28, 2014 02:34 PM (44jNh)

But fun as hell!

Took metal shop in H.S. and learned to weld. Well, not really....mostly I learned to cut up the welding table. But it was fun!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:37 AM (QFxY5)

223 Please to be noting, welding is hard. A whole lot of people can't learn to do it well. Not to mention having his head screwed on straight. OK, I gotta go get ready for my matinee gig. Y'all have fun and try not to trash the place, 'k?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b][/u] at March 28, 2014 10:37 AM (0HooB)

224 Please to be noting, welding is hard. A whole lot of people can't learn to do it well. Posted by: bonhomme at March 28, 2014 02:34 PM (44jNh) Absolutely. And good welders are hard to find. I tried it. Sucked at it. Welds were all folded over. Takes decades to be a master at it.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:37 AM (x3YFz)

225 ....Strangers making the most of the dark, two by two their bodies become one....I see you through the smoky air....

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 28, 2014 10:38 AM (ZshNr)

226 Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 02:28 PM (NpXoL)

It was a joke! I live in NJ also......

And are you going to come to the NY/NJ Moron Meet-up on May 1st?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 02:31 PM (QFxY5)


**

I'm in no mood Dildo! And no! I'm not going to moronapalooza part XXI.  I'll be in Texas, sweet San Antone! Then I'm leaving for Myrtle Beach on the 11th.


I will make it to a meet-up one day...I SWEAR!!







Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 10:38 AM (NpXoL)

227 (It's also worth noting that a welder or an HVAC guy will make a good deal more than your average Women's Chicano Lesbian Studies major right out of the gate and probably for the foreseeable future.)

Posted by: joncelli at March 28, 2014 02:31 PM (RD7QR)

 

But the classrooms are more attractive in the Chicano Lesbian Studies majors.

Hmmph... *snort*  BWAHAHAHA.... ok, I couldn't keep a straight face on that one.

 

Posted by: GWB at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (Yv2t4)

228 Please to be noting, welding is hard. A whole lot of people can't learn to do it well.>>

Where I work there are a lot of auto welders and Laser welders. The guys that set them up and keep them running are mostly technicians with a 2 year vo tech degree. So there are other choices in the welding arts than just manual welding.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (tf9Ne)

229 how does one "scare" the earth?

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 02:28 PM (zOTsN)

__________________________________

 

Like this    "BOO"...... 

 

 

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (GjPnA)

230 Those hoboes are filled with lots of toxic additives. Not to mention the Val-U-Rite. Posted by: naturalfake at March 28, 2014 02:29 PM (0cMkb) I thought the reason I soaked the hobo meat in Valu-Rite was to get rid of the toxins...

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (E8IHS)

231 Economics degree here.  I got a commission in the Army, bought a house at 25, and now have a decent job on the civilian side with no student loan debt.  Some of the people I know from college still live with their parents, work dead-end jobs, and don't have a nickel to their name.  It's all about whether or not you're willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get ahead and if you're willing to constantly adapt to the changing environment. 

Posted by: Colorado Alex at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (b6nAI)

232 When introducing the concept of factorials, he wrote 4! on the board, and, after inquiring if anyone knew what that was, pronounced in the loudest, most booming voice, "FOUR!" I love it......sounds like my kinda guy. That's what I always want to do when I see factorial notation.

Posted by: eleven at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (GXZgZ)

233 That comment at 201 is discusting and you have a potty mouth.............

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (mwDO5)

234 Actually he'll be a commissioned 2nd Lt. when he graduates. Maybe the Chinese cashier job will have to wait.

Posted by: NCKate at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (O7+D2)

235
But fun as hell!

Took metal shop in H.S. and learned to weld. Well, not really....mostly I learned to cut up the welding table. But it was fun!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 02:37 PM (QFxY5)

 

Same here.  Keeping the proper distance between the welding rod and the material while arc welding is a bitch.  Oxy-acetylene was easier.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 10:39 AM (DrWcr)

236 I am currently using my post 9/11 GI Bill to go to school online. I'm of an age and temperament where I have little patience with the precious snowflakes that currently populate college campuses. What was the movie where Adam Sandler was in a classroom of little kids when he went back to school? That's what it felt like to me. I love to write and and getting a BFA in Creative Writing for Entertainment is what I have always wanted to do. Bonus is being able to do it without dumb kids and even dumber "teachers" making me want to leave treadmarks on their maggot-ridden corpses... See? Online schools do so serve a purpose! Oh, pics of me and my crazy family are in my sig.

Posted by: SMFH at it all at March 28, 2014 10:40 AM (OsWis)

237 The plumber will retire 10 years before the dentist.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 02:25 PM (QFxY5)


Yeah, but it is a shit job.

Posted by: flounder at March 28, 2014 10:40 AM (Kkt/i)

238 Like this "BOO"......

Please go back to pantsuits or at least put panties on.

Posted by: The Earth at March 28, 2014 10:40 AM (0AKks)

239 I took Women's studies as a major in High School and College. I just didn't realize it was called that at the time.

Posted by: Minnfidel at March 28, 2014 10:41 AM (igKtt)

240 Hillary is a very intellgiant woman and would be proud to have her as are next Presdent.

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 10:41 AM (h0ygp)

241 Ch. 33 post-9/11 GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon Program. So fortunately, no loans thus far...unless the JEF takes THAT from us too...

Posted by: SMFH at it all at March 28, 2014 10:42 AM (OsWis)

242 My engineering courses plus courses in English literature gave me an edge in writer/editor positions.  Rare at the time.  Did well when in Silicon Valley.

Posted by: NCwoof at March 28, 2014 10:42 AM (aUQgu)

243 Actually he'll be a commissioned 2nd Lt. when he graduates. Maybe the Chinese cashier job will have to wait.

Yeah, he'll likely end up in the bowels of the Pentagon, never to see the light of day for the next five years.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at March 28, 2014 10:43 AM (b6nAI)

244 When introducing the concept of factorials, he wrote 4! on the board, and, after inquiring if anyone knew what that was, pronounced in the loudest, most booming voice, "FOUR!"

I had the exact same experience with a Calc Prof in college.  Same number too!

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:43 AM (45N4D)

245 Silicon Valley is a racist slur about woman and I am telling Michelle Obama about this rude comment.....

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 10:43 AM (h0ygp)

246 I had a great HS English teacher, Mr. Hamelin. Big drinker, fan of the dog tracks in RI and the ponies in Boston. Funny guy, past his prime. I would occasionally raise my hand in the middle of a class and say " Mr. Hamelin, we're all bored to death with this, can we talk about "X" instead?", and he'd often say sure, maybe flip through the newspaper and start a chat. Same guy would give weekly vocab quizzes, basically free points toward your average, I would turn mine in with the most bizarre misspellings and mangled definitions just to see if he was paying attention when grading mine. He'd mark them correct and write "Nice try", or something.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 28, 2014 10:44 AM (ZshNr)

247 Proctology is a lucrative field if you don't mind dealing with assholes all day.

Posted by: Dr Oz's Hair at March 28, 2014 10:44 AM (jPWsV)

248 232 That comment at 201 is discusting and you have a potty mouth............. Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 02:39 PM (mwDO5) I got nothin'. First instinct is just leave it for dead in the wilderness, but I'll toss it to any Hordeling who wants to take this one.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 10:44 AM (x3YFz)

249 "Where I'm from an 18 year old is an adult and can do as they choose/please. "
You don't have to subsidize their bad choices, and hopefully by the time they hit that age you've taught them to pick a good school, or skip it all together. My Cousin is paying most of the way through this college and just hoping her daughter will turn out differently than the last one. Good luck with that.
To make matters worse: the daughter is STUNNINGLY beautiful.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:44 AM (zfY+H)

250 "FOUR!"

Posted by: flounder at March 28, 2014 02:37 PM (Kkt/i)

I don't get it....

Posted by: Womyn's Studies Barrista at March 28, 2014 10:44 AM (QFxY5)

251 I used to have a recurring nightmare of being a grownup having go back to like the 3rd grade. I had to squeeze into the little bitty desk and everything. Weird.

Posted by: eleven at March 28, 2014 10:45 AM (VhqUZ)

252 Proctology is a lucrative field if you don't mind dealing with assholes all day.

What do they do with the 400 lb people?  Get a couple of nurses to pry the cheeks apart?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:45 AM (45N4D)

253 "The ones with no talent who, nevertheless, submit to the coaching and commit to improving often end up as "good" teachers- good enough that you'd never know they were "talentless" when they started." Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 02:29 PM (PYAXX) Sounds like these are the type that can bullshit their way through evaluations and look like they know what they're doing. The only one who knows for sure that they're not a real teacher with talent is the kid who still doesn't know how to multiply fractions. How many kids have been ruined to the educational experience by talentless hacks slogging their way through the latest method? For centuries, people have recognized that some people have a special gifts. One might be able to look at something and then turn a lump of clay or piece of marble into a perfect sculpture. Others might be able to sing in a manner that other people find enjoyable. For some reason, society accepts this as the way things are. But when it comes to teaching, for some reason the union atmosphere decreed that if someone puts in the time and ends up with certain degrees, they have the ability to teach. So far from the truth. Such a tragedy to society.

Posted by: jwest at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (u2a4R)

254 Welding ain't that hard.
My dad taught me the basics of oxy-acetylene in about a half hour when I was around 16, then had me keep practicing every chance I got. After you learn to set the flame and push the puddle you basically self teach yourself after that. Moving on to electric, TIG and MIG from there is pretty easy. Again it's more practice then anything.

Posted by: lowandslow at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (IV4od)

255 Jobs that are dirty and/or difficult are always going to pay pretty well. Otherwise, no one would do them.
So says Mike Rowe.

Posted by: navybrat at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (JgC5a)

256 Had a calculus teacher in CC, wore jeans and sneakers with holes in both and told bad math puns in class. Great teacher.

Posted by: Socratease at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (82qVG)

257 What do they do with the 400 lb people? Get a couple of nurses to pry the cheeks apart?

Jaws of life.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (0AKks)

258 245    Good luck finding the big MO.  When you do, tell her come get it.

Posted by: NCwoof at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (aUQgu)

259 250 I used to have a recurring nightmare of being a grownup having go back to like the 3rd grade.


I had to squeeze into the little bitty desk and everything.

Weird.

Posted by: eleven at March 28, 2014 02:45 PM (VhqUZ)

 

My recurring school-related nightmare is that I didn't finish a class in high school,thus invalidating my college and post-grad degrees, and having to go back.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 10:46 AM (DrWcr)

260

Could not agree with your post more. I have a JD and would not be allowed to teach middle school English nowadays because I didn't take a class in how to make bulletin boards or how to tell time (activities for which my education-major sorortity sisters got academic credit).

 

When my mother went into teaching (early 1950s) students in Texas DID major in a subject, usually the subject they were going to teach, but got a teaching certificate at the same time they were pursuing their degree by enrolling in the teacher certification classes (part of which was student teaching).  My mother majored in English and taught first grade until she was "showing" with my oldest sibling ... at which time she was not allowed to return to teach in the fall of 1960. 

 

When my father was transferred to Pennsylvania, my mother decided given the higher cost of living and the fact that the youngest was in fourth grade, old enough in my mother's estimation to get to and from school alone, that she might go back to teaching school to add an extra income. This was about 1977 or 1978. The state of PA would not give her a teaching certificate, which was the only means to be a full-time teacher, because she was not an education major.  I am not sure what the rules were for private school, since we didn't live near one that wasn't a Catholic school, and since we aren't Catholics, no job openings there. However, the state would allow my mother to be a substitute teacher, and she became a  full-time sub, often taking over classes for an entire school year if the full-time teacher had a baby, heart attack, cancer, etc.  She was one of the few subs willing to teach middle school so our phone generally started ringing at 5:45 a.m. with schools wanting her to come teach that day.

 

My high school journalism teacher got into teaching as a way to make money at the beach in New Jersey in the winter when bartending tips fell off. He was given an "emergency" certificate because no one sane would teach in Atlantic City. As a 24 year old party dude trying to break into sportswriting, and starving in the process, he was willing to do anything to pay the rent. He ended up with a 7th grade remedial English class, 90% of whom ended up in prison before age 20. He said he was actually afraid to turn his back to the board. The decent kids were fun enough that he traded in his "emergency" certificate for a full-time certificate (still being handed out to anyone who was willing to teach, education major or not) and made a career out of teaching English and journalism.

 

People like Mr. Rossnick are who we need teaching school in America.

Posted by: the other coyote at March 28, 2014 10:47 AM (yK44T)

261 Hillary is a very intellgiant woman and would be proud to have her as are next Presdent.

Posted by: Dorcus Blimline at March 28, 2014 02:41 PM (h0ygp)

________________________________________________

 

Even I'm not falling for that one....

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at March 28, 2014 10:47 AM (GjPnA)

262 Proctology is a lucrative field if you don't mind dealing with assholes all day. BTW -- never ever open a Gynecology textbook. Just.....don't.

Posted by: eleven at March 28, 2014 10:47 AM (GXZgZ)

263 Lincolntf, I LOVED teachers like that. I had one who couldn't wait to hit the beach. Especially when the surf was up at Waimea during the winter months. Fun times.

Posted by: SMFH at it all at March 28, 2014 10:47 AM (OsWis)

264 >>People with an education degree cannot work in any other area with that degree except education, which traps them in a fairly low-paid field. They cannot easily -- even if they wished to -- jump ship to another career.<<

Nonsense. My director of corporate training has an education degree. That person makes far more than the average person. I could repeat that example in several other professions.

Education should never be a minor. Ever. With many states requiring an advance degree for certification the average teacher has a better than average education. Low paid? Sure. But I frankly do not completely agree with the pay rate=value argument anyway.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 28, 2014 10:47 AM (GGCsk)

265 ot giddy-up Ben Carson to huddle with lawmakers as he develops Obamacare replacement dailycaller

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 10:48 AM (IXrOn)

266 "My recurring school-related nightmare is that I didn't finish a class in high school,thus invalidating my college and post-grad degrees, and having to go back."
"That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age." -Wooderson

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 10:48 AM (zfY+H)

267 Jobs that are dirty and/or difficult are always going to pay pretty well. Otherwise, no one would do them.

No intiendo.  Me quieres hacer que?

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:48 AM (45N4D)

268

What I like to call the "secret" major from two years at Columbia pays off big. 

It's awesome:  no one knows I was even there and I'm playing golf fifty times a year now,  I have my own 747 and a private chef,  America buys my suits and I totally was not a CompSci major.   In truth  I hardly even went to class.  Too stoned generally.  But here I am! 

Posted by: Barack Obama at March 28, 2014 10:48 AM (LISuA)

269 >>I used to have a recurring nightmare of being a grownup having go back to like the 3rd grade. My dad and I had the same 3rd grade teacher, Mrs. Ardesser. She was a pip. Spent the entire class walking around with a yardstick which she would apply to your knuckles as necessary. Learning went on in that room or else. She also loved to pull out teeth. Not kidding. This was third grade and lots of us were still losing a baby tooth or two. Woman would just reach right in, twist and pull. She was an artist and we would be psyched to get a loose tooth. I'd go back to her class in a heart beat.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 28, 2014 10:50 AM (g1DWB)

270 @248 1 child went to a Big 10 school and graduated in 3.5 years. The other 2 are currently in state system schools. I know 1 is conservative. 1 I think swings left the other is a moderate I believe. We don't talk much politics. They all went to a Christina k-8 school. Mom and I are socons. So, to blame ones liberalism on the home life, elementary life I call Bull Shit. My kids get an allowance from me. I am not subsidizing their educations.

Posted by: Misanthopic Humanitarian at March 28, 2014 10:50 AM (HVff2)

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:50 AM (QFxY5)

272 My recurring school-related nightmare is that I didn't finish a class in high school,thus invalidating my college and post-grad degrees, and having to go back.

I have a similar one.  I've already completed my BS in college, and have to go back and finish up some classes in HS.  The whole time I'm terribly embarrassed.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/i][/b][/s][/s] at March 28, 2014 10:50 AM (45N4D)

273 The old "liberal arts" curriculum was meant as an education for the free man. It's goal was wisdom, the love of truth and goodness. Over the last century, education has become instrumental, utilitarian. It must serve a practical purpose. In the humanities, this means that the justification of learning shifts from the philosophical to the ideological, as Marx defined these terms. According to dialectical materialism, there is no Truth or Goodness, no "human nature," no "wisdom." There is only class struggle. "The point is not to understand the world, but to change it." The humanities, unmoored from philosophy, have value only to the extent that they can further the Revolution.....or, as "liberals" would say, social consciousness, social justice. Thus the liberal arts are dead and the humanities have been debased beyond recognition.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 28, 2014 10:50 AM (dfYL9)

274 But when it comes to teaching, for some reason the union atmosphere decreed that if someone puts in the time and ends up with certain degrees, they have the ability to teach. So far from the truth. Such a tragedy to society. This part I agree with- a credential does not mean you know how to teach. That's why I specified "coaching" instead of "instruction." It's not something that can be taught to some 18-yr old in a classroom. It's much more like vocational training- it's the hands-on/on-the-job training that can make someone who otherwise wouldn't be into a decent (if not actively good) teacher. As for "kids have been ruined to the educational experience...?" That is neither limited to the "talentless" nor unique to education. Some teachers do suck, no one here is disputing that. I had a few of them. But the sucking had little to do with talent, and much more to do with work-ethic or the pride said teacher (didn't) take in their work. But the idea that Teachers are "discovered" and only a limited pool of talented individuals can ever be good teachers? Yeah, I call BS.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 10:50 AM (PYAXX)

275 "People with an education degree cannot work in any other area with that degree except education, which traps them in a fairly low-paid field. They cannot easily -- even if they wished to -- jump ship to another career."

Ace,

You make the assumption that people can only work in the area of their major. This is not the case.

I know plenty of people whose careers have zero to do with their majors. You know what the #1 major for 1st year associates at investment banks is? Philosophy.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (0LHZx)

276

And I really have trouble believing that teachers should spend most of their time studying, in a meta, bullshitty sort of way, the Theory of Education, as opposed to studying a specific subject matter (math, history, whatever else).

 

HereÂ’s how Education about Education works after you become a unionized public school teacher.

 

You get a teaching job at starting pay

 

You get your union  contracted raise.

 

 You get a “step increase” after so many years in addition to the annual raise.

 

 You get paid to get continuing education about how to teach.

 

 The continuing education bumps up your salary.

 

The salary bumps up your pension.

 

AND, there is no evidence, none, that the extra schooling actually makes a damn bit of difference in the classroom. Cool, huh?

Posted by: CJ at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (9KqcB)

277 "Jobs that are dirty and/or difficult are always going to pay pretty well. Otherwise, no one would do them." The guy that cleaned out my septic tank this week did himself okay for a half hour's work. And I was glad to pay him too.

Posted by: Education Major at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (gOoFi)

278

Posted by: Barack Obama at March 28, 2014 02:48 PM (LISuA)

 

Yeah, enjoy it while you can,, I'm up for 8 next... 

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (GjPnA)

279 acm.org ieee robotics ai military simulation and gaming a friend of mine: math and compsci majors went straight out of undergrad to developing missiles... the world's the limit in compsci

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (IXrOn)

280 I'd go back to her class in a heart beat.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 28, 2014 02:50 PM (g1DWB)

And nowadays some suck-ass fuckstick litigation-happy parent would sue her and the school for $5,000,000 for a stunt like pulling a tooth.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (QFxY5)

281 Son.of.a http://tinyurl.com/llfehlb

Posted by: RWC at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (fWAjv)

282 The daughter went to a relatively small private college. The were 33 in her graduating class of nurses; there were over 300 doing same with a BS in education. That doesn't count the 30 or so with an MS Ed, or the 5 newly minted Phds in Ed.
 
Something appears to be wrong with that demand curve if you ask me.

Posted by: GnuBreed at March 28, 2014 10:51 AM (cHZB7)

283 You know what the #1 major for 1st year associates at investment banks is? Philosophy.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 28, 2014 02:51 PM (0LHZx)

Bullshit.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:53 AM (QFxY5)

284 "Something appears to be wrong with that demand curve if you ask me." Lots of chiefs but not enough Indians.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 28, 2014 10:53 AM (gOoFi)

285
giddy-up

Ben Carson to huddle with lawmakers as he develops Obamacare replacement

dailycaller

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at March 28, 2014 02:48 PM (IXrOn)

*



Just hope he doesn't let the opposition research team of Cantor, Boehner & Graham in on the talks.


Posted by: dananjcon at March 28, 2014 10:53 AM (NpXoL)

286 I got my Class A CDL after I got out of the Army in 2009. A year later, I was going back to school. I was driving for a company that didn't pay shit and I was sitting at truck stops waiting for loads more than I was keeping that International's wheels turning. But during that year, I was able to see parts of the country I only read about as a kid... I can't put a price on that.

Posted by: SMFH at it all at March 28, 2014 10:53 AM (OsWis)

287 280 Son.of.a

http://tinyurl.com/llfehlb

Posted by: RWC at March 28, 2014 02:51 PM (fWAjv)

 

Damn.  Forget the Raid, get out the shotgun!

Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 10:53 AM (DrWcr)

288 He was a character, that's for sure. Same class, different year, he was pounding Iambic Pentameter into our heads for way too long. Literally didn't change what was written on the chalkboard for three days straight. Trying to make sure we all "got it" before a big Shakespeare-only test. So I raised my hand and asked if I could go to the bathroom, in iambic pentameter. He looked quizzically at me, asked me something else, I answered in iambic pentameter. Then it was on, he basically only called on me for comic relief after that. I spoke in iambic pentameter in his class from that day on, minus a few times when he was in a pissy mood.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 28, 2014 10:53 AM (ZshNr)

289 >>And nowadays some suck-ass fuckstick litigation-happy parent would sue her and the school for $5,000,000 for a stunt like pulling a tooth. Yea, things have changed so much in such a short time. All of the parts loved her and so did the kids. Even us knuckle wrapees. She was a like having a stern but loving grandmother for a teacher. You really didn't want to let her down.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 28, 2014 10:54 AM (g1DWB)

290 Oh well, might as well make myself unpopular. It is a vulgar view of education that links the value of a college degree to marketability. I am reminded of the great Gerald Fitzgerald. He was a "university professor " (multi-discipline) at BU. One year he was asked to serve as interim chair for romance languages and practically caused a riot merely by suggesting that it was not the purpose of an education to provide a job. I realize this sounds silly in today's climate, where once-great universities thrive on their "business schools," but surely there must be someone out there who still understands what he meant.

Posted by: Caliban at March 28, 2014 10:54 AM (DrC22)

291 "46 A college degree became the substitute for employment testing when the wizards on the U.S. Supreme Court decided Griggs v. Duke Power."

WISDOM!

The price of that bad ruling? A trillion dollars in useless student debt.

Posted by: Obama Lied Jobs Died at March 28, 2014 10:55 AM (oNqbW)

292
Bullshit.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 02:53 PM (QFxY5)


____


It was, my 1st year. I was one of the very few who had a degree in anything business related. It might not be philosophy every year at every house, but it's a combination of philosophy, poli/sci, English lit, etc. What it is definitely not....business majors.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 28, 2014 10:55 AM (0LHZx)

293 282 You know what the #1 major for 1st year ghey associates at investment banks is? Philosophy. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 28, 2014 02:51 PM (0LHZx) FIFY.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 28, 2014 10:55 AM (0FSuD)

294 Yeah I'm calling bullshit that Investment Banks are hiring Philosophy majors as first year associates.

Posted by: lowandslow at March 28, 2014 10:55 AM (IV4od)

295 Damn. Forget the Raid, get out the shotgun! Posted by: Insomniac at March 28, 2014 02:53 PM (DrWcr) Flammenwerfer 41

Posted by: RWC at March 28, 2014 10:55 AM (fWAjv)

296 If I were starting over today, would focus on any tech job relating to oil/gas industry.  And move to Texas. 

Posted by: NCwoof at March 28, 2014 10:55 AM (aUQgu)

297 Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 28, 2014 02:55 PM (0LHZx)

So you backed down from a general comment about an industry to your personal experience at one firm in one particular year.

Got it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 10:56 AM (QFxY5)

298 Nood zombies up!

Posted by: rickb223 at March 28, 2014 10:57 AM (ndIek)

299 http://preview.tinyurl.com/kfubz6o

Posted by: SMFH at it all at March 28, 2014 10:57 AM (OsWis)

300 297 Nood zombies up! Posted by: rickb223 at March 28, 2014 02:57 PM (ndIek) Please be Helen Thomas! Please be Helen Thomas!

Posted by: RWC at March 28, 2014 10:57 AM (fWAjv)

301

>>>BTW -- never ever open a Gynecology textbook.

 

I'm an STD specialist. I've seen worse in person.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbnails at March 28, 2014 10:58 AM (3ZtZW)

302 293 Yeah I'm calling bullshit that Investment Banks are hiring Philosophy majors as first year associates. Posted by: lowandslow at March 28, 2014 02:55 PM (IV4od) Actually, I think Moo Moo is sort of right. They hire a lot of rich kids from ivy schools cause dad has an account, etc and they usually have phil or English degrees. The study was on Goldman and Morgan Stanley I think. Only big firms in study.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 28, 2014 10:58 AM (0FSuD)

303 So you backed down from a general comment about an industry to your personal experience at one firm in one particular year.

Got it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 28, 2014 02:56 PM (QFxY5)


_____


No you're right. All the people at Goldman who went to Colby, Bates, Sawrthmore, Amhert, etc were all finance majors. Even though most of those colleges don't offer finance. My bad.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 28, 2014 10:58 AM (0LHZx)

304

Caliban ... you can definitely count me out.

 

I only, ONLY, went to Engineering school to learn how to do the job, to get the pay. No other reason.

 

Good thing, too ... because I got very little value out of their general ed shit. Waste of time.

Posted by: ScoggDog at March 28, 2014 10:59 AM (re1VY)

305 I realize this sounds silly in today's climate, where once-great universities thrive on their "business schools," but surely there must be someone out there who still understands what he meant. Posted by: Caliban that's great. but the "Liberal Arts" in education now spend over half their time on "grievance studies", to wit: The report, Recasting History: Are Race, Class, and Gender Dominating American History?, finds: High emphasis on race, class, and gender in reading assignments. 78 percent of UT faculty members were high assigners of RCG readings; 50 percent of A&M faculty members were high assigners of RCG readings. An absence of significant primary source documents and key concepts Tocqueville's Democracy in America and the Gettysburg Address, for instance, were rarely assigned, and numerous political documents, such as the Mayflower Compact and Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, were not assigned in any American history courses. High level of race, class, and gender research interests among faculty members teaching these courses. 78 percent of UT faculty members had special research interests in RCG; 64 percent of A&M faculty members had special research interests in RCG. "The failure of these major universities to present a broader picture of the American story shortchanges students," said Peter Wood, president of the National Association of Scholars. "It also puts at risk the nation's civic literacy."

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 10:59 AM (zOTsN)

306 In my day the big money degree was Petroleum Engineering (a 5 year BS). I got to know the Exec VP for Sun Oil and he told me that he had to promote executives strictly from in-house PEs and discovered none of them could write a legible sentence much less talk with non-PE people effectively. It really bothered him.

Posted by: Chaos the other dark meat at March 28, 2014 10:59 AM (oDCMR)

307 "People with an education degree cannot work in any other area with that degree except education, which traps them in a fairly low-paid field. They cannot easily -- even if they wished to -- jump ship to another career." Ace, I hate to agree with Moo Moo, but, you're so wrong. Broad brushes: don't paint with them. I already brought up my wifey earlier in the thread and hate to belabor the point, but she has 3 AA's, 3 BS', 2 Masters and in a month, her PhD. Here's her resume: Precision Measurement Evaluation (read: fixed electronic aviation systems) Master Instructor (pushed hundreds through NCO schools) Satellite Crew Commander. Sat and watched, helpless, as PO2 Roberts fell out of the back of an MH-47 on Takur Ghar. I don't tell you that to make you go "wow," but to make you go "oh." Fine lines, not broad strokes.

Posted by: tangonine at March 28, 2014 11:01 AM (x3YFz)

308 It is a vulgar view of education that links the value of a college degree to marketability. Well, education has become vulgar. And, yes, it has to do with jobs not being allowed to give aptitude tests. But it also has to do with Colleges becoming a business (that is: existing to make a profit). So now "everyone has to go to college," but if some middle class (or poor) kid is going to go to college, there had better be a *monetary* return on that investment. When it was only the affluent (and generally idle affluent) who went to University, you could get a degree that would not (itself) provide a return. Nowadays- not so much.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at March 28, 2014 11:01 AM (PYAXX)

309 BTW -- never ever open a Gynecology textbook.

Just.....don't.

Posted by: eleven at March 28, 2014 02:47 PM (GXZgZ)

An addendum to the adage that those who like sausage and respect the law should never watch either being made?

 

With many states requiring an advance degree for certification the average teacher has a better than average education.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 28, 2014 02:47 PM (GGCsk)

They might have a "better than average" set of sheepskins. But I doubt it's a "better than average" education, as defined by the classical view. It's primarily certification inflation.

 

Posted by: GWB at March 28, 2014 11:01 AM (9eTPJ)

310 248 You don't have to subsidize their bad choices, and hopefully by the time they hit that age you've taught them to pick a good school, or skip it all together. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 28, 2014 02:44 PM (zfY+H) --------------------------- My two oldest kids made good choices. Daughter on full ride in liberals arts. Son a STEM student at an excellent-but-cheap state school. My younger daughter wanted to go to Savannah College of Art and Design to major in jewelry making. Yup. The school costs about 678 jillion dollars a year. We said, "Good luck, dear." Well, okay, we coughed up about 1/10 of the cost, what it would have cost for her to go to community college. After a year she started looking at reality. "Gee, I owe about 28 zillion bucks and, gee, jewelry makers on average make about 2 dollars an hour, so.....golly, maybe this is a bad investment and I should cut my losses."

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 28, 2014 11:01 AM (dfYL9)

311

It is a vulgar view of education that links the value of a college degree to marketability.

 

How about education linked to what society needs to prosper?  Because the market can do a good job indicating that.

 

No, you shouldnÂ’t pick a major based solely on how much money you can make. But the earnings potential indicates its worth.

 

There is nothing uniquely ennobling about being an out of work poet.

 

Posted by: CJ at March 28, 2014 11:03 AM (9KqcB)

312 302   Are those the ones jumping out of windows?

Posted by: NCwoof at March 28, 2014 11:04 AM (aUQgu)

313 I considered going to the local HS and applying for a science teacher's job. They even had parole jobs, where they gave you time to get your educatorer's degree.
 
The paperwork and continuing ED credits just made me blow it off. And I had a lot of hard knock chem experience. So I passed.

Posted by: GnuBreed at March 28, 2014 11:05 AM (cHZB7)

314 289 I realize this sounds silly in today's climate, where once-great universities thrive on their "business schools," but surely there must be someone out there who still understands what he meant. Posted by: Caliban at March 28, 2014 02:54 PM (DrC22) ---------------------- I understand entirely what he meant but, alas, that world has gone. HEY HEY HO HO WESTERN CIV HAS GOT TO GO.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 28, 2014 11:05 AM (dfYL9)

315 most investment bankers have an MBA or a masters degree in a related field the undergraduate degree is not the most important piece of paper

Posted by: thunderb at March 28, 2014 11:07 AM (zOTsN)

316 Late to the party but any degree that doesn't prepare you for a career is a waste of money. My wife who does the hiring for her job won't touch a gender/equity studies, LGBT, etc major. They're too busy advertising their politics rather than their desire to work.

Posted by: Blue state hostage at March 28, 2014 11:07 AM (O/Ke2)

317 Where do the UVA students usually end up? Gov't jobs? So they have less of a ramp-up in salary than your typical grad? Skewing the results, I'd say, given their proximity to DC and its over-abundance of jobs and high salaries. Exclude the people who went to UVA, graduated in Arts, and end up as senior managers for programs in the Gov't sector. My education, 4yr degree, major school, cost me 7k out of pocket (1985 values). I'd say I got a BARGAIN- my first job paid 34/hr in 1986. And my REAL education came from the military- that got me more interviews and jobs than the degree did directly.

Posted by: Mr Wolf at March 28, 2014 11:08 AM (nRgwZ)

318 My daughter insisted on an arts degree, mostly self-funded. I insisted that she learn marketable skills (IT, office administration, and the like) while she was in school so she could eat and pay off her student loans upon graduation. Well, p.s., she has worked steadily since the age of 18, got a Masters (also arts-related) and now works in her chosen and highly competitive field. It's a pretty good job, too. My point is that every door which has opened to her did so because of those marketable skills dear old Mom insisted she learn. She is now adamant that her younger sister will go to a state school and major in something practical. To her credit, she has said 'Mom, you were right', without being prompted, at least once a week for the past five years.

Posted by: MDH3 at March 28, 2014 11:09 AM (GKyUC)

319 315   wait.....there are LBGT majors?

Car 54 where are you?

Posted by: NCwoof at March 28, 2014 11:09 AM (aUQgu)

320 Agree about education degrees being really bullshit like so many of these gender studies and sociology majors--studies not about a subject but about the process or the actors involved in an activity or subject. But one of the reasons teachers don't get enough money is that administration is sucking up so much of the education dollar. When more money goes to schools it doesn't get to the faculty members. It goes to extra diversity counselors or assistant principals for zero tolerance of gun tattoos or something.

Posted by: Marta Richards at March 28, 2014 11:18 AM (GVA22)

321 The reason there are no "Gender Studies" or "Ethnic Studies" or "African-American Studies" majors on the list is that the researchers couldn't find anyone with those majors who actually had a job.

Posted by: Adjoran at March 28, 2014 11:18 AM (QIQ6j)

322 College cost me $20K back in the late '80s (includes rent). My spouse went to a nice private university that cost his dad several times that. We both have the same degrees, and my salary has often outstripped his, but in truth, he's far better educated than I am, and his skill set is superior (not that he flaunts it).

Posted by: crowley at March 28, 2014 11:31 AM (h/UbW)

323 Well about waking up at 28 or so---my old fraternity chapter got itself thrown off campus--and out of the national fraternity for that matter. I was in the chapter almost 50 years ago, and fraternity chapters do change over the years as the individual groups of members come and go. This last bunch majored in booze and pussy, and were so bad that the school and the national threw them out so hard they're still bouncing down the road. Strangest thing--and I do mean the strangest thing--is that most of them were engineering majors. Go figure. Most engineers I know would have a hard time spelling pussy much less actually finding any. I have no idea what their grades were like.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at March 28, 2014 11:36 AM (wdHk6)

324 Another caveat: I wonder how much the Stanford CS numbers are jacked up by a couple of Google billionaires?

Drop the top and bottom 5% from each group, and run again.  It's not the extreme outliers that matter.

Posted by: Greg Q at March 28, 2014 11:38 AM (4Pleu)

325 Socrates, in the Apology, told us that if we professionalized teaching two bad results would occur: first, things that are easy to learn would be made to appear difficult, and second, things that are learned quickly would be prolonged indefinitely by breaking them down into their component parts and teaching each part separately. - J.T. Gatto But WTH did Socrates know anyway.

Posted by: rockhead at March 28, 2014 11:46 AM (jtTKf)

326 Not all English degrees are worthless.  If you focus on literature courses, you're probably wasting your money, unless you plan on a career in academia.  I mean, anyone can go to the bookstore or library (or internet) and read literature and (ugh) literary criticism.  But if you concentrate in writing courses and do lots and lots of writing, you can then go to law school and then practice law in a biglaw or boutique litigation department, which is 90% writing, and make a lot of fucking money.  If that's what you want.  I did all that, and I liked practicing law for a little while, then I tolerated it, then I hated it, then I despised it.  So I retired in my mid-40s with a net worth just under $2M.  Now I do whatever the fuck I want to all day.  English degree, law degree, millionaire, retired.  Who knows, maybe I'm the only fucking one.

Posted by: Count Vronsky at March 28, 2014 12:43 PM (yhJhK)

327 All of my in-laws are teachers, they chose that profession so they could have their summers off for vacations and long Christmas holiday breaks. Not that they aren't dedicated and good at their profession, but they made a career choice based on their leisure activities.

Posted by: gopk at March 28, 2014 12:47 PM (Y3BRN)

328 I'm a strong advocate of a classical university education, but it isn't for everyone, and that's definitely not what you'll find in 95% of universities today. God bless Mike Rowe for fighting back against the university cartel.


Posted by: TK-421 at March 28, 2014 12:49 PM (8LCi0)

329 @289 "One year he was asked to serve as interim chair for romance languages and practically caused a riot merely by suggesting that it was not the purpose of an education to provide a job."

Posted by: Caliban at March 28, 2014 02:54 PM (DrC22)

Maybe it's not the purpose of an education to provide a job, but if you are getting an education that makes you worse off for job purposes than you would be if you had never gone to college at all, I'd say there is something wrong with that education.

Posted by: Joshua at March 28, 2014 01:51 PM (oCZ4e)

330 I mean, anyone can go to the bookstore or library (or internet) and read literature and (ugh) literary criticism.

I love this argument. It certainly accounts for most of the poetry around here. And I say this as one who does know how to kipple.

Hey, I went to a library and read engineering and architecture. They have a whole section of those, too. 

Posted by: Stringer Davis at March 28, 2014 03:26 PM (xq1UY)

331 Agree on all points! One of the leading causes of poor secondary school instruction is directly linked to widespread academic limitations in the specialty fields of secondary school teachers. It is not unusual to find history teachers unable to teach World or European History without reading out of the high school textbook. Teachers can gain a certificate with shockingly low number of actual history credits. Instead they are forced to take education courses that while time-consuming- are mind-numbing in content. The number of instructors who acquire a masters or even undergraduate degree in their field is quite small. As a consequence, history departments are flooded with coaches, who (generally) treat these courses as lesser priorities than building championship teams. This trend was enabled by the nearly non-existent preparation standards to teach social studies. It is astonishing that schools still produce great history teachers despite the lack of strong collegiate program. But wait for It.... the education colleges have devised new methods to destroy avenues to gain a teaching masters in the field of study. This idea is called the Master Teachers program which replaces the old masters of education. BRB and I'll explain.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at March 28, 2014 06:03 PM (q+Fzt)

332 Continued from 330 I don't know how this idea played out in other states; but Kentucky's department of education decreed that the college of education would limit working on a masters to teachers with jobs; unless they entered the administrative or counseling graduate programs. The old programs allowed teachers to take more courses in their field to upgrade their academic knowledge. The new program eliminates all courses in the field of study; and adds more required courses in.. you guessed it.. the college of education. In addition, teachers are required to investigate the weaknesses in their schools, report said information back to their university. (rat on their faculty) and devise a program to correct these targeted problems. They are then authorized by their university and principals to become a royal pain in the ass to the rest of the faculty by forcing their brainchild on the school; whether people agree with the newest fad or not. Some of these ideas are good, but the overall result has sown major civil wars between faculty "observing" their peers, and offering "critical construction" based on the newest hot fad. You can imagine how that dynamic goes over. But I digress: the main damage was the removal of credits required in the field of study, and the ongoing epidemic of dumbing down the faculty. People with a masters in their field are often considered "not properly trained in the latest teaching techniques", and too "content driven" with an inappropriate teaching approach for high school (read: they teach too much content). Those who choose to pursue a masters in their field despite this environment have other obstacles, however. The huge obstacle revolves around teaching hours vs. class hours. The Liberal Arts Colleges typically offer graduate courses during the day hours when teachers are committed to their classes. Or they throw in late afternoon class that begins minutes after high school classes end. In short, the colleges don't set up graduate classes for working people. These programs are designed for TAs. Grad students that take over the lower level classes, and grade papers while waiting for their own class to begin. If the goal is to require teachers to acquire a stronger academic background; then courses will have to be offered with the college of education schedule; nights, weekends and summertime. An idea that would evoke shouts of rage from non-education faculty.

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at March 28, 2014 06:34 PM (q+Fzt)

333 she claimed there was "an element of racism" to nuking Japan. Posted by: Adam at March 28, 2014 02:22 PM (Aif/5) My in-laws survived the bombing of Hiroshima and made no such claim, but what would they know? There wasn't a History degree between them. Racism is in vogue these days, but it was merely a symptom. Competing Economic interests were the major cause. A lot of what is taught is simply not true.

Posted by: MarkD at March 29, 2014 05:32 AM (06gsL)

334

Education pays well if you are a college professor.  You really don't need to know anything or have ever done anything.  You show up for class 9 to 12 times a week, and some teaching assistant does the real work. You can expect over $100,000 a year at most schools which is not bad for the time put in. Once the teaching plan is made up you stick with it for 30 years and never update it.

 

 

Posted by: burt at March 29, 2014 06:57 AM (1+kJ5)

Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.
284kb generated in CPU 0.1186, elapsed 0.3209 seconds.
64 queries taking 0.2175 seconds, 462 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.

Support





Donate to Ace of Spades HQ!


Contact

Change the At to "@" and the DOT to "."




Intermarkets' Privacy Policy
Support


Donate to Ace of Spades HQ!


Search Thingy



Archives

Monthly Traffic

  • Pages: 9162
  • Files: 131
  • Bytes: 198.1M
  • CPU Time: 7:51
  • Queries: 232343

Content

  • Posts: 22824
  • Comments: 5953260

Feeds


RSS 2.0 Atom 1.0